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BR77DSS1.1 - Sex, money, power and relationship
Brockwood Park, UK - 24 January 1977
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.1



0:21 Krishnamurti: Well, what shall we talk about?
0:29 Any suggestions? Questioner: Can we talk about attachment?
0:34 K: Attachment. Phew!
0:40 Q: Can we also talk about negating, and whether there is a negating without having an opposite?
0:53 K: You’re all awfully serious, aren’t you?
0:57 Q: (Inaudible) K: Shall we begin with that question?
1:12 Q: I wonder if it would be possible to go this question of relationship, with couples, and what is the proper place of having a couple?
1:23 K: Man and woman – right – boy and a girl. Right. Shall we start with that question, of Mrs Gandhi and India? Would you like to discuss that, talk about it a little bit?
1:45 This is off the record, isn’t it? I won’t be quoted in the papers afterwards, will I?
1:57 Because if I may point out, I saw Mrs Gandhi for several hours.
2:08 She came to dinner and the next day she came to see me again. We had a long talk. And, you know, a lot of things have changed since then. There’s a general election now.
2:23 Q: We can hardly hear, Krishnaji.
2:25 K: Oh – you can hardly hear. Right. There is a general election now, and all the political prisoners have been released, except those who through violence wanted to throw the government down.
2:49 Except for those, all the people who politically have been in prison, have been released, and therefore probably from that will follow a bill of rights, human rights, and all the rest of it.
3:07 Is that enough?
3:12 Q: Well, what did she say when you talked to her? What did she say about what she was doing in…
3:20 K: I’m afraid I can’t very well talk about all that, because we had…
3:27 you know, she came to see me twice, private, and I can’t discuss it, sorry.
3:35 It wouldn’t be right for me to talk about her because she treats me as a friend.
3:42 I have known her before; her father, and so on. We’II draw a line there, shall we? Now probably there’II be freedom of the press. And I saw some of the editors. They were in rebellion against the whole… you know – and other people. But all that is being gradually withdrawn.
4:16 People are… the rich people are getting richer, as usual, the poor people are just managing to survive.
4:30 There is a population of nearly six hundred million, and birth control and all that, family control should have been introduced about thirty years ago.
4:45 Then it would have done something, but under Mr Gandhi it was not allowed.
4:53 And I saw the health minister then – they were not allowed – but now the family planning has been introduced, and I believe it is operating, but I don’t know if it will ever catch up with the enormous explosion of population.
5:13 The monsoon – you know what the monsoon is? – rains, have been very good, and therefore the crop will be very good; people will be satisfied, for the time being.
5:28 Is that enough?
5:31 Q: Excuse me, sir. You said that freedom of the press was being reintroduced.
5:39 K: I think so. I didn’t say it would be.
5:42 Q: But even if it is reintroduced, can it not be withdrawn at any moment?
5:46 K: Maybe. I’m not a politician, I’m not – what would you say? – please, I know a great many people in India who are so-called top people, and political people, and others, intellectual and so on, and there may be freedom of press now, where the election is going on.
6:17 It may be withdrawn, I don’t know. I hope not.
6:24 I know a great many people are against Mrs Gandhi, a great many, for political reasons.
6:32 And so there it is.
6:43 Is that enough, sirs, about India? All right, if you want some more, I’II tell you.
6:51 Q: No, that’s fine.

K: Is that enough? Is that enough?

Q: Yes.
6:55 K: Good. What next? Attachment, and...
7:05 Q: Negation.

K:... negation, and relationship.
7:13 First of all, can we begin with considering the madness of the world?
7:24 Could we? Do you consider the word is quite insane? What do you say? Not balanced, rather crooked, rather corrupt.
7:49 Anyhow, I’ve been a great deal in India, from the North, Delhi, Benares, Madras, Rishi Valley, Bombay, and I met lots and lots of people, and from what I’ve observed, which may be wrong, and what I’ve observed in Europe and in America, there is a great deal of violence, a great deal of pursuit of pleasure, and religion has no meaning anymore except rituals, superstition – and the myth of Jesus being pursued, and so on.
8:39 Observing all this, one feels...
8:48 What does one feel? What do you feel? Would you tell me what you feel when you observe all this – the poverty, overpopulation, the dictatorship of the right or totalitarianism, whether of Mao or of Lenin, Marx, or so-called electorate dictatorship, which is called democracy, and the enormous amount of corruption in India, it’s incredible it must be the world over – so when you look at all this what do you see?
9:49 Silence?
9:51 Q: It doesn’t seem good, it doesn’t seem healthy.
9:56 K: So seeing that, if you are sensitive and knowing all that’s happening – sex has become so extraordinarily important – and it’s incredible what’s going on in the world – money, they’re all pursuing money, they’re all pursuing power, position, prestige.
10:29 If you’ve got a name, you can do almost anything. So, that the world is. From that, to come to Brockwood, or to go to any of the schools in India which are far away from towns, one feels – what does one feel?
10:59 Come on, sir, help me out.
11:11 One feels that, being sensitive, which one must be, certain things predominate in this world – money, sex, and power.
11:38 Right? The gurus have tremendous power. You know, it’s like they are little Hitlers in a religious world.
11:50 I’ve been attacking them all over India. And you see this politically. So there is tremendous urge for money and power and position.
12:06 Right? Are you aware of this? Do you know this? Right. And coming here one asks, I ask myself, if those of you who have been here for some time have observed all this and therefore turned your back on it, or do you favour it, or do you pursue it? You understand my question?
12:35 You understand? No, you don’t understand?
12:38 Q: By turning your back you don’t mean ignoring it, do you?
12:41 K: No, turn your back in the sense you don’t follow it, you don’t accept all that nonsense. Go on, sir.
12:53 Q: What if you feel that you know it, you see it is wrong and that it is bad, it’s an evil influence, but you feel helpless, drawn into it, unable to stop yourself?
13:04 K: No, then you are a slave to the environment. Then you’re a slave to somebody pushing you into it, and that’s totally unintelligent. Right?
13:21 If you are drawn into this mess either you’re not intelligent, rather insensitive, and you like that kind of thing, and so you go into it, you go in for all that.
13:34 If you don’t you naturally say, ‘Sorry, I’m not coming into the game.’ And one asks if some of the students here are turning their back on it, walking away from it, or are you pursuing it?
13:55 That is, money – you must have a certain amount of money, but money as the principle aim in life, or sex or power, domination, one group against another group.
14:17 I don’t know if you have groups here? I hope not. And one asks, you should ask, if you’re moving away from all that.
14:33 It’s a very difficult problem – you understand all this? You understand all this, do you?
14:40 Q: One doesn’t really know what attitude to take.
14:43 K: No, not attitude – that’s totally wrong. I wouldn’t take an attitude.
14:50 I don’t want power, finished, there is no attitude about it.
14:59 I need a little money but money isn’t the main thing in life.
15:08 And sex has become extraordinarily, almost lustfully, important.
15:19 And how do you, as a school, as a group, as a student, how do you answer all these questions?
15:33 Dead silence.
15:43 Brian Jenkins: It doesn’t seem very easy, because one sees the monks and nuns, the few who are left in the world...
15:48 K: What, sir?

BJ: The monks and nuns.
15:50 K: Oh, no, monks and nuns, they’re all gone, finished.
16:00 Sir, look, I was listening the other day in Rome, before I went to India, the cardinal speaking about things, in Italian, and he was saying that the Church must be very strong.
16:16 Strong in the sense, belief in Jesus and obedience to the Church – you know, the whole works he was turning out.
16:26 And I was with some people and they paid not the least attention. They didn’t care two pins what he was talking about. But the poor people do. Superstitious, ignorant people do. So, come back here – not Rome or the monks or the nuns or the people who retreat into monasteries and follow Zen Buddhism, Zen, and so on – they are all escapists. Right?
17:00 BJ: But, Krishnaji, what I’m asking is: how can one turn one’s back on money, power...
17:04 K: No, no. No, I’II tell you how. I want to discuss it with you. I want to have a dialogue, not just say, ‘Well I... turn your back’ and, ‘What do you mean by that?’ Let’s talk it over together.
17:17 Q: It seems that in a sense to turn your back on it, on something, you have to first face it.

K: That’s right. You have to understand it, haven’t you?
17:25 Q: Yes.

K: You have to go into it – why money has become tremendously important in life, why sex, why power – you follow? – these three things.
17:39 Why? Let’s talk about it, go into it.
17:46 And the group formation – the Indians and the Hindu, Muslims – God! You follow? The division of the world – the south against the north, the Italians... I can’t tell you.
18:01 In India there is a very strong anti-Brahmanism. You know what Brahmins are? No? Oh, my goodness.
18:15 Do you want to know something about it? Does it interest you what a Brahmin is, or it’s all dead stuff?
18:28 Q: Not completely dead – you were one.
18:29 K: Yes, yes, and so is Shakuntala, or Suseela – Shakuntala – we’re Brahmans.
18:37 The Brahmins were the so-called aristocrats and intellectuals of India and they were very, very orthodox, traditional.
18:48 You can see – I won’t go into all the reasons of it, and so on, but the economic condition of India is now destroying all Brahmanism.
19:05 They are not supposed to eat meat, drink and all the rest of it – a very, strict moral life. All that’s broken down.
19:16 So, there were these groups – the communist groups, the Mao groups, the Trotskyites, you know, the Labour Party and divisions in the Labour Party – divisions right throughout the world based on ideas, opinions and judgement. Right?
19:41 And so that’s the problem we want to discuss. Have a dialogue, come on. Which is, how do you regard money? What is your, not attitude – go on, I want to ask you – how do you consider money?
20:00 What value has money to you?
20:11 I groan. Come on.
20:15 Q: Well, you need to have some to travel or to buy certain things.
20:18 K: I’m asking you what value do you place on money?
20:35 Come on, sir.
20:37 Q: Well, doesn’t it largely depend on how much of it you have or you haven’t?
20:46 K: Ah! Would you base it on needs, what you need?
20:59 I need clothes, food and shelter – right? Need. But when that need goes beyond and becomes greedy – you follow?
21:13 So what value do you place on it? As a human being living in this monstrous world. I don’t know if you consider the world is monstrous. I do, for various reasons. If you want it, I can go into it.
21:31 They, the people, are pursuing these things – money – right? To them money has become tremendously important. They think that will give them freedom, you know, all the rest of it, a house, a garden, all that, and servants galore – especially in India.
21:51 I never wash dishes in India. Here I do, upstairs. All my bed was made in India by servants. I offered to do it, they said, ‘For goodness sake, how can you?’ So, do you evaluate money according to need?
22:24 Come on, sir, please, because this is what you’re growing up into. You follow?
22:34 Q: Well, what can be done?
22:38 K: Oh, you people, you are old enough to evaluate, think it out. What do you need? More refrigerators, more cars, more aeroplanes, more this and more that?
22:55 Q: Well, no...
22:56 K: No, no, no, no, you can easily theoretically say no, but when you’re faced with this, how will you react to all that?
23:11 Q: Does not the need imply desire as well?
23:18 K: I don’t quite follow what you mean, sir.
23:20 Q: When you say ‘need,’ I don’t know what you mean by ‘need’...
23:25 K: I need certain things. Right? Obviously, we need certain things. So where does the need become – what?
23:42 Q: Greed.
23:43 K: Not only greed, but the need slips into a kind of possessive, acquisitive, having, owning things which give you happiness.
23:56 I don’t know if you follow what I mean. I used to know friends, their happiness consisted of having innumerable dresses and suits, cars, and remove them and they’re lost.
24:14 Q: It seems that they need grows in terms of comparison. When one sees a house of another and it’s far grander, and this and that, it seems to plant a seed.
24:23 K: Yes, comparison comes out of greed. By comparing, you want more.
24:27 Q: Right.
24:29 K: So, I’m asking, as a group of people living here, students growing up and facing the world, a world which is really quite terrible. I don’t know if you...
24:42 Where is Mr Joe? There he is. Agree, sir? Joe Zorskie: Agree.

K: Right. Really, you’ve no idea what you’re growing up into. Really, you don’t. That’s why, please from now learn how to meet all this, not just casually grow up and slip into all this mess.
25:15 So, we’II come back to it. What value do you place on sex?
25:26 What do you think about it?
25:32 Q: I don’t think it’s that important.
25:34 K: You may not, but what about the whole group of us, the community living here? What does it mean to you, especially the older students?
25:52 That’s a tremendous drive – you understand? Oh, for goodness sake. Is it a problem here?
26:13 How am I to answer myself?
26:16 Q: Can we ask if it’s a problem in a relationship, because to me it seems that we...

K: All right.
26:23 Q: No, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, I want to...
26:26 K: Jean-Michel, ecoute.

Q: No, I want to add something else.
26:29 K: Bien.

Q: I’m sorry. It’s just that it seems that there is a difference for the two, of relationship and sex.
26:53 I mean, that’s why I ask where do we place sex in a relationship if there is...
27:01 K: All right, let’s talk about relationship and bring in that, the other. What does relationship mean to you?
27:21 Q: Being in a relationship means being able to communicate with somebody.
27:27 K: So, you say relationship implies the capacity to communicate what you feel and think with another.
27:40 Is that what you call relationship? You may be perfectly right, don’t be nervous. You may be perfectly right. That is, one can’t communicate with everybody. Right?
27:59 Right? I don’t know why not, but we’II discuss that a little later. One feels one can talk to another when there’s friendliness, when there is appreciation, companionship and so on, and you feel you can say things from your heart, concealed ideas, your fears – you can talk to him, or her, fairly easily. Right?
28:32 And you call... that is a part of relationship, one part of it. What else is there in relationship? Go on.
28:45 Stephen Smith: There’s a certain quality of permanence.
28:50 K: Permanence.

SS: Yes. It doesn’t begin today and end in two day’s time.

K: Quality of permanence. Doris Pratt: There’s a breaking down of one’s own sense of isolation.
29:04 K: That is, are you saying relationship is or must be the breaking down the walls which separate you, may bring about isolation – is that it?
29:21 And the desire for permanency. Right? Right? Is that what you call relationship? One is communication, the other is, in that relationship the desire that it must continue permanently until you die, and the other is that it acts as a self-revealing process.
29:53 You understand what I’m talking?
29:56 Q: (Inaudible) K: It acts as a self-revealing process.
30:03 Which is, most people are self-centred, you know, concerned about themselves, their worries, their looks, how they walk – concerned about themselves.
30:16 And that concern gradually brings about isolation. Right?
30:24 And relationship, it is hoped, will break down that isolation. Got it? Right. So is that what you call relationship?
30:36 Q: It must also involve caring for the person you are relating to.
30:41 K: That means caring.
30:43 Q: There’s other responsibilities. If we’re talking about relationship in general...
30:50 K: I’m talking of relationship with another, not in general.
30:55 Q: Well, all right, with another. It sounds somewhat that we’ve been describing what I might call a nice relationship, but there are also those relationships where someone that I meet I consistently...
31:08 K: Repulse, push, walk away from him or avoid him.
31:12 Q: Yes.
31:13 K: Yes, we’II come to that. Let’s go into this little bit slowly. So you are saying communication, the breaking down of self-centredness and the desire for permanency, and also a sense of affection, care.
31:34 Right? Care, affection means love.
31:42 Now, do you call all that relationship, good relationship?
31:49 To be able to communicate to another and hoping that relationship will endure, last, they won’t break down, there won’t be a divorce, and breaking down the self-centredness, and love.
32:17 Right? Would all that include relationship? Are you following all this?
32:25 Q: No I don’t think, Krishnaji, that the desire for permanence is a part of relationship. I don’t think the desire for permanence is a necessary part of relationship. There may be a permanence but it...
32:42 K: I said the hope that it’II last.
32:47 SS: The fact that it does last.

K: Yes.
32:52 SS: Or it may have within it the potential to continually renew itself, which is rather different I would have thought, from a projection of permanence.
33:01 K: I don’t quite follow your... I didn’t follow that, sir.
33:04 SS: The relationship may have within it the ability to renew itself constantly and therefore not be a desire for permanence but an actual fact.
33:14 K: Yes, I understand. Is there in that relationship a constant renewal? Not permanency but a thing that is living, moving, changing, yet be related.
33:37 Right? Would you call all that relationship? Have a good relationship with another?
33:45 Q: Should we consider all these points as relationship? Should we also not consider whether such a relationship exists before we...
33:55 K: Ah, of course it doesn’t exist, but first look at the map.
34:06 As it is, what is relationship? Attraction, sexual attraction, the satisfaction in sex, and desire for comfort – she’II cook my meal or he will do something for me and bear my babies and so on and so on, all that is – quarrel at the end of it – all the messy relationship that we have. Right?
34:39 Right? That’s a fact. So we are saying – somebody said, one of them said: let’s talk about relationship.
34:53 One side of the relationship, all that, and the other side is breaking down relationship. Right?
35:03 No?
35:05 Q: What do you mean breaking down relationship?
35:09 K: I want to be related to you. I like you. You’re my girl, or boy, wife, and gradually you begin to quarrel.
35:19 You say one harsh word and it’s over. I don’t know if you follow all this.
35:30 Q: But there seem to be relationships in which there is care and others in which...
35:35 K:... which doesn’t care.

Q: Yes.
35:37 K: Yes. I may sleep with somebody and I really don’t care as long as I have my pleasure.
35:47 And it’s over and I go off with somebody else.
35:58 So that’s why I’m asking: what do you mean by the word ‘relationship’? What is the implication in that? Not what actually relationship is, which is no relationship at all.
36:18 Suppose one falls in love – unfortunate word, that – one falls in love with somebody.
36:28 In that there is a great deal of physical attraction, sex and the pleasure of that company, and gradually that thing wears down.
36:39 Get married and gradually say, ‘For God’s sake, I have to look at that woman the rest of my life!’ Or she says to herself, ‘My God, what a face he’s got, what a bore he is.’ But she has to put up with the man because he has got the money, he has got children, and all that.
37:03 So she says, ‘I must stay.’ You follow? That’s what generally is called relationship. I’m not being cynical; this is fact. So, in that relationship is included sex – you follow? – quarrels, irritation and hard words.
37:26 And so when you use a hard word the thing is beginning to go.
37:34 You understand? I wonder if you understand all this.
37:43 Because in that is involved, sir, a great deal. I don’t want to go into it. You are my wife or my husband. For whatever reasons we’re married, hoping that will last.
38:04 And after a year or two you begin to discover that I’m not so – all that – I’m not so good, or I’m slightly weak and I don’t always tell the truth, and I may be flirting with another girl, and so on.
38:25 So, you say a brutal word to me and it freezes me. You understand? You understand what I’m talking about? So, what has happened? The thing which I call love when I married has turned into anger, hurt, wounds.
38:52 So take all that and look at it. What is relationship then?
38:59 The fact, which is no relationship – right?
39:07 If I use you because you have money, because you’re a woman, or because I want sex – if I use you and say that usage is love, because I’m unconscious of all that – right? – so I call it love.
39:26 And you begin to discover really I married you for your money or for looks or for your body, for comfort, for some reason or other.
39:37 I have a motive, of which I may not be conscious. Then you say something very brutal to me. I’m hurt because I’ve tried to conceal things from you.
39:55 You understand what I’m saying? And you have discovered something in me and you hit that, and so I’m hurt.
40:05 Oh, come on, you know all this, don’t you? So all that is relationship. Now, what do you do about it? What do you actually do about it?
40:28 Q: The way you describe relationship with physical attraction and power...
40:44 K: Yes, I want to possess you, I want to dominate you, because you are my wife or husband – and sex plays tremendous part in it – and I want to hold you.
40:58 Q: Yes, but...
41:01 K: ‘Without you,’ Jean-Michel, ‘without you I’m lost. I need you.’ Q: But I wouldn’t name this relationship.
41:10 I mean, if it’s just for the attraction for the person?
41:23 K: Alors.
41:25 Q: You are saying relationship is finer.
41:27 K: Is fine?
41:28 Q: Is finer, it’s a finer thing than that.
41:34 K: I don’t know about anything the finer. We start with ‘what is’ then we can move to the finer. But if we say look at the finer and then forget this, it means nothing. The fact is – we can only deal with facts – the fact is, as it is now, relationship becomes a terrible thing. You follow?
41:59 Right? No?

Q: No.
42:06 K: Oh, for goodness sake. All right. Jean-Michel, you say no. I’m your father. I want you to do something. I want you to follow me – my business, my law firm, or politically – I want you to do that and you say, ‘Please, I want to be an artist.’ And I fight you.
42:33 You want to be an artist, I want you to become a lawyer. Yes. So our relationship is broken.
42:43 Q: (Inaudible) maybe if I talk to him there might be an exchange.
42:54 K: You can talk to me, you can persuade me, but I want you to be something which you don’t want.
43:01 Q: Well, that’s a certain relationship – OK.
43:02 K: This is what’s happening, sir, in life. No? So take all that into account – where are you?
43:19 In this school you must have friends, relationship – how do you meet all this?
43:33 How am I... If you don’t answer my question – no, Jean-Michel, answer my question, don’t evade it.
43:40 Q: No, I’m trying to get into what... to your suggestion, but I just...
43:51 K: Look, Jean-Michel, ecoutez, I’m asking you something: what is your relationship with another?
44:02 Girl or boy, what is your relationship? Jean-Michel is everybody here, not Jean-Michel by himself.
44:15 Q: The expectation of certain qualities, of certain reactions to... a very selfish motive, relationship is, actually, where you expect another person to... you expect something from that person.
44:29 K: So...
44:29 Q: When you get it you have a good relationship.
44:31 K: When you don’t get it you have a bad relationship. So what does that mean? Follow it up, sir. What does that mean? You expect something from another and when that person gives you what you want, you have good communication, you are very friendly, but if he doesn’t, he’II throw you out – politely, with kid gloves.
44:58 So what does that mean? As long as you’re being satisfied it’s good relationship. Is that it?
45:08 Q: That’s what he said.
45:11 K: Acknowledge it. Face the fact. Don’t beat it about. Face the fact that as long as you are satisfied, gratified, it is a good relationship.
45:27 Q: The need for relationship – is that a fact?
45:29 K: No, we’re not talking for the need, we’re saying the fact. The fact is I’m related to you as long as you satisfy me – sexually, in ten different ways – and then peaceful, everything is peaceful.
45:48 But if the wife or the husband says, ‘Look here, old boy, that isn’t good enough, I also want to be satisfied,’ which means you yield as much as you take.
46:02 Q: (Inaudible) You see it.
46:12 K: You see, you’re not facing facts, you’re going, running away from it.
46:19 In this place, at Brockwood, has relationship become sex?
46:28 Has relationship become gratification?
46:36 Q: Wouldn’t it have always been that way?
46:40 K: Take it as it is, not ‘would it be.’ The fact is most human beings in their relationship want to be gratified, satisfied, feel contented, ‘Don’t disturb me.’ We have good relationship but don’t too much push me.
47:11 Is that what’s happening here? Groups forming? And therefore, you know, beginning. Face it; answer me. I don’t know, how can I...
47:25 Q: It seems to happen to some degree, yes.
47:28 K: I’m asking you: does it happen here?
47:32 Q: When we go and sit down at meals...
47:35 K: Ecoutez. I’m asking you. Answer me directly.
47:44 Q: Yes.

K: Yes? Yes. All right.
47:52 And you call that good relationship? As long as you satisfy me sexually, verbally, pat me on the back and encourage me, satisfy me, we have perfect understanding, we communicate with each other most beautifully.
48:16 But the moment I am not satisfied that communication comes to an end. Right?
48:27 And you call – what is that relationship? Is it relationship at all? Because I’m concerned with my gratification, as long as you give me what I want, you say, ‘Lovely!’ Q: But, Krishnaji, people do listen to one another here.
48:48 K: Oh, come off it. They do.

Q: They do.
48:51 K: Of course they do listen, out of politeness or out of a great many considerations, all the civilities of man, you know, I have to listen to you.
49:00 You’re a bore but I’II listen to you.
49:07 This is what... this is life.
49:12 Q: Don’t you also think that’s part of relationship? You know, fighting and... isn’t that part of relationship?
49:19 K: That’s just it. I’m asking you. If you realise relationship mostly is self-gratification, in different forms – I’m not only putting it...
49:34 to make it very brief I put it: sexually, comfort, possession, but it can be extended and the more detail...
49:45 it’s much more subtle than all that. Taking all that, I say, yes, I want to find out what is relationship. We call that relationship. It’s generally accepted, that, as relationship, and ends up in divorce and all the rest of it.
50:05 But I want to find out what is right relationship.
50:09 Q: How can we find it if we live it this way?
50:15 K: So, will you not live that way?
50:25 That is, we have to go into the question: what is love?
50:32 Is love gratification? Is love sex? Is love desire?
50:43 Is love something that is easily communicable – I love you and you love me, and all that?
50:52 Or is love something entirely different?
51:00 Don’t you want to know all these things?
51:12 Q: How do you find out?

K: How do you find out? By denying or negating or saying, ‘No, this is an absurd way of living, self-gratification all the time.’ I’m reducing a very complex problem into couple of words.
51:35 Q: When we feel lonely and isolated, it seems that we don’t know what to do with that, so we look for friends.
51:41 K: Yes. I met a girl the other day in Madras – I’ve known her for many years – and she says, ‘I’m married.’ I was very surprised because she...
51:54 She said, ‘You see, I married because you people weren’t around me, therefore I married somebody.’ You understand what I’m saying?
52:04 Do you understand what I’m saying?
52:07 Q: No.

Q: I didn’t catch the remark.
52:12 K: You didn’t hear it?

Q: No.
52:16 K: I met this girl who I’ve known for many years and she got married, and she said, ‘I got married because you people,’ that means all her friends, ‘weren’t there, therefore I married.’ That’s what’s going to happen to you, and you will call that falling in love.
52:48 So, you, as a student, as a person who is going to enter into a most dangerous world – for God’s sake, realise this – the world is so dangerous.
53:04 You have to meet it with intelligence, not say, ‘Well, I must be gratified and therefore everything must...’ You follow? Find out.
53:17 That’s why I say, for most people, money, sex and power, these are the things on which people live.
53:37 Q: Finding out doesn’t seem to have helped so much because having found out what do you do?
53:43 K: No. Ah, I mean by finding out, investigating with your heart, not with here, not with intellect.
53:58 See if you live that way – if you’re seeking power, if you’re seeking money, if sex means everything to you.
54:08 That’s mere gratification – you follow? – the whole circus. Find out.
54:15 If you say money is necessary but it’s not going to be the end of my life, then you say, ‘Bene, I’II take it when...
54:25 I’II occupy myself with some job that will give me my needs.’ Therefore you intelligently limit your needs.
54:32 You follow what I’m saying? Oh my!
54:44 The world, sir, is asking you to be a great success. Success in the sense, be popular, well known, have plenty of money.
54:58 Right? Which means power, and abundance of sex.
55:07 So, now, we said look at it: is that what you want?
55:18 Is that your drive, your direction? Is that your motive?
55:27 Examine it, look at it, find out. Not when you’re in the middle of the battle – then it’s too late, you’re caught then.
55:39 But here, you’re young, you’re trying to learn about not only geometry and history but much more fundamental things in life.
55:50 Right? Learn, find out how to live intelligently, which means placing a limit on needs.
56:11 You may need a hundred suits – need – and I may need only two. You follow? And I won’t be jealous of you because I’m satisfied with my needs.
56:26 Q: Is not need a matter of concept?
56:32 K: No, no, it’s not a concept. Certainly not. I need food, clothes and shelter. That’s not a concept.
56:47 Q: How can one need a hundred shoes?
56:51 K: I talk a great deal and I need several suits because of – for various reasons – I perspire, and so on and so on, so I need a great many suits, and he says, ‘Well, I only need a couple of suits, it’s enough.’ Q: So the one who says, ‘I need one hundred shoes,’ will then go out and do what’s necessary...
57:12 K: Yes, necessary and so on. From that follows an intelligent action.
57:18 Q: What usually happens is they will say, ‘Well, you’ve got seven suits so I want eight.’ K: Have eight if that’s your need.
57:27 Have a hundred if it’s your need. But when it becomes greed there’s no limit to it.
57:39 Q: The trouble is when you acknowledge practical needs, you also have to acknowledge the psychological needs.
57:47 K: No, no. Do I depend on clothes to make me feel comfortable, rich and happy?
58:01 Will the clothes make me or I make the clothes?
58:11 Oh, come on. So, you also have to find out what pleasure means.
58:24 Right? Because, apparently, sex is associated with pleasure. Right? And don’t talk about sex – pleasure, find out the implications of pleasure.
58:44 Why the mind, the brain, pursues pleasure in different forms.
58:52 Having a hundred suits may be a great pleasure, or having one suit also may be a great pleasure.
59:02 Or the pleasure of non-possession and possession, the pleasure of owning somebody, owning a house, all the rest – pleasure.
59:21 Is that what you want in life?
59:31 If that is what you want, then sex becomes tremendously important.
59:47 Q: It’s the American ideal.
59:50 K: Sir, America is spreading all over the world.
59:56 Q: I mean, it’s written in the constitution, that.
59:58 K: Yes, yes, yes, I know, happiness and all the rest of it. But I’m talking of something else – pleasure. Pleasure is not happiness.
1:00:12 So what do you consider, as young people growing up into this ugly world, what is your relationship with the ugly world and yourself?
1:00:29 You understand what I’m asking? Look, you are now young, you’re going out later, I hope much later, meet the wolves, various types of wolves – how do you meet it? Aren’t you concerned?
1:00:51 Or you say, sir, I’m too young, for God’s sake, I’m not yet ready for that. Then if you say, ‘I’m too young,’ leave it like that. Quite right, you’re much too young.
1:01:02 But don’t imitate the older people.
1:01:12 It’s good to be young, and youth is wasted on young people. Right?
1:01:30 Q: I think part of the problem is that we don’t really see how dangerous the world is.
1:01:35 K: Oh no! Don’t you see the danger of the world?
1:01:43 Are you blind, so blind as all that? Please, older students – not the young people; remain young, fresh, innocent, alive, don’t imitate the old, cranky people.
1:02:04 Don’t you see the world? Walk down any street – Regent Street or Bond Street or Piccadilly – any street.
1:02:13 Those are fashionable streets but go down East End, you’II see it all.
1:02:26 You know... well, I won’t go into all the details. Go on.
1:02:30 Q: Sir, the problem seems to be here, not in Regent Street or Bond Street, but here where I am lusting for power and I am lusting for money.
1:02:38 K: That’s what I’m asking you.

Q: Yes, I am. I accept it.
1:02:42 K: Are you sure you’re saying it? Be accurate. That you want money?
1:02:49 Q: I see that I want money.
1:02:51 K: You want it.

Q: Yes, sir.
1:02:53 K: ‘I see I want it,’ is the same as saying, ‘I want it.’ Q: Yes, sir.
1:02:57 K: Money – right? Sex.

Q: Yes, sir.
1:02:59 K: Power. Then you belong to all that hideous world.
1:03:08 If you say, ‘I want that,’ go after it.
1:03:11 Q: No, but I see that I want it but I don’t, you know. There seems to be a struggle.
1:03:19 K: Why? Face it. Why? Why is there a struggle? Why don’t you accept the fact? The fact. You want money, sex, power – that’s a fact, isn’t it?
1:03:39 Q: I want to change it. I’m trying to.

K: So meet it, face it. Say, is it possible for me to change my desire, my urge for money, etc?
1:03:56 Right? Don’t make it into a struggle. That’s a wastage of energy. Right? Do you understand? I want money. I say, ‘All right, what is implied?’ Fighting. You follow?
1:04:20 Fighting, you know, what’s implied, getting money, clever, lawyer, whatever you do – fight, fight, fight, fight, to have more and more money. Is it worth it?
1:04:43 Which means you bring a great deal of sorrow for yourself. Right? A great deal of sorrow for the rest of the world.
1:04:55 So which is... go into it, find out what to do.
1:05:02 If that’s what you want, don’t fight it.
1:05:10 But if you don’t want that – finished!
1:05:15 Q: (Inaudible) K: Why? Because you are conditioned – you follow? – you are conditioned to one thing and somebody comes along and says, ‘Don’t, that’s an ugly thing to do.’ So you make what the other says into a non-fact.
1:05:38 Well, I won’t go into all that.
1:05:45 SS: It seems to me, Krishnaji, that these various drives carry a lot of energy of a kind and if that energy is for some reason stopped then one finds oneself in a kind of limbo, and this may be difficult.
1:06:05 K: Sir, this is a very complex problem, energy. What is energy? If you’re interested in it. What is energy?
1:06:24 There is mechanical energy, isn’t there? Right? That is, dynamo, piston, propeller, the jet – all those are mechanical things, aren’t they?
1:06:41 Right? Are you following this? Now, and also, you have a motive for money, because that will give you pleasure.
1:06:56 So where there is a motive, it becomes mechanical. Right, sir? I wonder if you understand this. The word ‘motive’ means to move, something to push.
1:07:14 Q: Sir, is it not wanting money, not wanting power?
1:07:17 K: No, no. That’s what the monks have done, but inside craving for all this, outwardly saying, ‘I don’t want money, I don’t want sex, I’m in the service of God,’ or Jesus or whatever it is, but inside they’re burning for sex, they want to be bishop.
1:07:44 So you have to learn about yourself. Right?
1:07:55 Look, Mr Smith asked that question: energy. It’s a very important question because most of us have... some of us have physical energy – right? – and others have psychological energy because they believe in something.
1:08:20 I believe in Jesus – or Rama or Sita or God – I believe in it and therefore I work for it.
1:08:27 It gives me tremendous energy. The missionaries that go out and live in the most fantastic countries – savages and so on – they’ve got tremendous energy because they believe in something. Right?
1:08:43 Which is mechanistic. I wonder if you see that. So is there energy which is non-mechanistic and therefore limitless?
1:09:08 This is a very complex problem, I won’t go into it.
1:09:22 So where are we at the end of all this?
1:09:31 Sir, learning and coming to a conclusion is one thing. Right?
1:09:40 That is, I learn – I’ve been talking about it, forgive me – which is, there are two ways of learning.
1:09:51 Please, just listen, for amusement. Just listen. You may not accept it but just listen for the fun of it. There are two ways of learning: learning first facts, information, which becomes knowledge, then from that knowledge act skilfully or not skilfully. Right?
1:10:14 The other is go out, act and learn.
1:10:22 Right? Mao Tse-tung said, ‘Go out into the field and learn.’ Right?
1:10:33 The others said, ‘Learn first and then act.’ Which is called education. Right?
1:10:42 Learn a great deal about engineering, mathematics, this and that, and then go out and act.
1:10:50 The other says, ‘Act first and then from action learn.’ Right? That’s clear, isn’t it?
1:11:01 Both act from knowledge. Right?
1:11:10 I go out and learn, and the more I learn the more I act.
1:11:17 The other is learn first and then act. So both actions are based on knowledge. Right?
1:11:33 Right? Do you get this?
1:11:41 So, when you are basing all action on knowledge then it becomes mechanical.
1:11:51 Right? And there is a totally different way of acting, which is to have an insight – not knowledge.
1:12:01 This is too much for you. So there is an action which is non-mechanistic and therefore no wastage of energy.
1:12:17 The other is acquiring knowledge – learning, acting; or acting and learning, which is based on knowledge which becomes mechanical and therefore that’s a wastage of energy.
1:12:29 It’s a very complex problem this. Perhaps sometime we can discuss this.
1:12:43 Q: I think insight be without motivation?
1:12:47 K: Of course.
1:12:51 Q: And where would this insight come from?
1:12:55 K: Ah, look, you know what insight means? Having a sight in something. Seeing something immediately.
1:13:08 You understand?
1:13:16 And seeing something immediately and acting.
1:13:25 Say, for instance, I see the mere pursuit of money – what is it? You follow?
1:13:38 I have an insight into it. I see its limitation, I see its extravagant activity leading nowhere.
1:13:52 Right? I have an insight into it. Therefore, it is not... I am acting from, not knowledge but perception.
1:14:05 It’s a little...
1:14:12 So at the end of this, an hour and a quarter, where are you?
1:14:23 Have you got headaches, all of you, from listening?
1:14:36 Have you learnt something?
1:14:44 Have you learnt something? So is that becoming a memory, or you are learning?
1:14:59 You understand? Oh, this is too... This is fascinating if you go into it, this question. You know, if you’re acting from knowledge, which most, 99.95 per cent of people do – having acquired knowledge they act, or having an experience and act from that experience, which is knowledge.
1:15:31 You see, in that process there is never freedom. You are always moving within a circle. The circle may be expanded, large, but it’s always a circle.
1:15:48 Because the centre is knowledge and the circumference is the action.
1:15:55 And from the circumference it’s related, back and forth, we are doing.
1:16:03 So is there an action which is not from a centre?
1:16:13 I wonder, this is too... So let me leave that alone.
1:16:26 What are you going to do with what we talked about an hour and a quarter – what are you going to do with it?
1:16:38 That is, money, sex, power. How are you going to meet it, what’s your relationship to it?
1:16:53 DP: Krishnaji, we see that money, the pursuit of money, power, sex, all the ugly things that are happening in the world are reproduced for us every night of the week as entertainment.
1:17:05 K: What?
1:17:06 DP: They’re reproduced as entertainment and we like to watch that.
1:17:13 K: No, I don’t quite follow what you mean, reproduced.
1:17:17 DP: All that is going on in the world is reproduced on the television for our entertainment, so what’s our chance of... (inaudible) K: You’re bringing all the world in here.
1:17:29 DP: On the television.
1:17:33 Q: She seems to be implying that – if I’m not mistaken – that we would be better off if we didn’t watch television.
1:17:40 DP: No, not necessarily. Not at all. (Inaudible) K: I don’t quite follow this conversation.
1:17:53 What are you... I’m sorry, would you put it differently?
1:17:58 DP: You say, do we want to be like everything that is happening in the world.

K: No, I am asking...
1:18:07 DP:... do we know what is happening in the world?
1:18:08 K: Not only do you know what is happening in the world but how are you going to meet it?
1:18:13 DP: But we meet it as entertainment. We meet it as entertainment, don’t we?
1:18:19 K: Ah. You are meeting it as an entertainment, television entertainment?
1:18:24 DP: Yes.
1:18:27 Q: Yes.
1:18:33 K: Are you?
1:18:37 Q: I think so. I think we do, yes.
1:18:38 K: Are you meeting what I’m saying as an entertainment?
1:18:40 Q: No.

Q: (Inaudible) K: Answer my question, please, if you don’t mind.
1:18:45 Q: (Inaudible) K: Are you... some people may... I’m asking all of you, are you meeting what I’m saying as an entertainment?
1:18:54 Q: No.
1:18:55 K: I don’t mind, please. You won’t insult me. If you say, ‘Yes, we want to be entertained by you...’ – wait – if you say, ‘We want to be entertained by you,’ I say, ‘Good morning.’ I’II walk out.
1:19:09 Because I don’t want to entertain you. That’s far from my intention. But if you say, ‘Look, let’s learn together about all this mess that’s going on, in ourselves and in the world,’ then it’s not an entertainment, it’s a very serious affair.
1:19:38 Now, I’m leaving on the 31st for California, so do we have another?
1:19:46 Q: Yes.

K: Mrs D, do we have another?
1:19:49 Q: (Inaudible) K: No, please, just consider me also. I’m just asking. Do we have another? And also please consider me also, physically. Do you want another? To be entertained? All right, we’II have another. Right.