Krishnamurti - Order, influence, intelligence and watching

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR77DSS1.2 - Order, influence, intelligence and watching
Brockwood Park, UK - 28 January 1977
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.2

0:20	Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:28	Questioner: Well, there is one thing that came up the other day. We were saying that we are programmed to want money and power and sex, and whatever else, and we are also programmed to feel that we shouldn’t want those things and that we should be something else.
0:53	So the question is: here at Brockwood are we conditioning ourselves in a different way, or not?
1:14	Q: Could we also talk about order and… K: Order.
1:18	Q: The implications of...
1:21	K: Also there was a question about what are we going to do with our life.
1:34	Wasn’t there a question of that kind? When we leave here, what’s going to happen to us? That’s also one of the questions. Order. What was your question, sir, I couldn’t make it out quite?
1:58	Q: Whether we are conditioning ourselves, are we living according to ideas and concepts?
2:06	K: Are we, in unconditioning ourselves, falling into another form of conditioning?
2:19	So which shall we talk about first?
2:31	Q: The order.
2:45	K: What do you think is order? What is order?
3:00	Come on, this is a dialogue, so...
3:08	Q: The absence of conflict.
3:18	K: Is the universe, cosmos, in order? Is it in complete order?
3:30	The heavens, the stars and all that above us.
3:38	According to some of the scientists, they will say that is complete order.
3:45	The word ‘cosmos’ in Greek, I believe, does mean order. And opposite to that, chaos, total disorder. Order and disorder. Is order the opposite of disorder?
4:19	Come on, discuss, please.
4:27	Q: One might say the absence of disorder.
4:30	K: A reaction to... Q: No, the absence.
4:33	K: The absence of... Q:... disorder.
4:37	K: The absence of disorder is order.
4:44	So disorder has nothing whatever to do with order.
4:51	Or order is not related to disorder, is not the opposite of disorder.
5:02	Right? Oh, Lord, come on. Any opposite – love and hate – the opposite of hate is supposed to be love.
5:22	And when there is an opposite is there not the quality of hate in love?
5:35	Do you understand what I’m saying?
5:40	Q: It doesn’t seem to be very obvious.
5:44	K: Naturally. Let’s talk about it a little bit.
5:48	Q: We may be going a little bit too fast.
5:50	K: Too fast – quite right, sir. Q: Maybe we are. If we were to agree what... We could talk about the order amongst things, that is...
6:04	K: Order among things, order... Q: Are certain things in order?
6:14	That is, if we were to look at them carefully and see some relationship, that they were related, then that seeing that they are related in a sense is the order.
6:24	But I get a little bit confused if we ask is the universe in order, because the universe implies the whole thing.
6:31	K: I know, I went much too fast. Forgive me, I went much too fast. Order in one’s room.
6:44	To put things where they belong in the room. Right? That’s a kind of... one kind of order. And when there is order in the room there is no wastage of energy in searching where things are. Right? Would you...
7:09	Q: Not necessarily, sir. If you have everything on the floor then you can usually see it, you don’t have to search for anything. K: Oh, that’s a very good idea, but in India it would never work out, because in India there are no cupboards.
7:23	Generally, in a house you put everything on the floor and you can see where they are. But when you put everything on the floor there is very little room to do anything else, if the room is small, as they generally are in India.
7:39	So, here you have a cupboard. When you put things away in order – please listen, this is rather... I think it’s rather important this – when you put away things in order in the room there is no wasting of energy in searching for things. Right?
8:04	Right? So, wastage of energy is disorder. Am I jumping too quickly? Yes, a little bit too fast. No? Got it?
8:22	So where there is order there is more energy. Right, sir? Am I going too fast?
8:35	Q: I understand what you’re saying, but then in a sense we are sitting in this room in a very disordered way.
8:42	If I were looking for a person, I’d have to look through the whole room. Shouldn’t we arrange ourselves according to height or according to alphabetical order? At some place, intelligently we have to cut off this arrangement in order, and where do we do that?
9:03	Where do we finally say that order becomes restrictive in our life, where order as a principle is merely a conditioning?
9:14	Q: I question whether it is a principle. Is order a principle? Meaning, is it just an idea?
9:28	Because if it is then if we try and order the room according to our idea of what order is, then we’II run into trouble.
9:43	K: What do you think is order? Go on, you... instead of we talking about it, you tell us a little bit, what do you think is order?
10:06	Q: Sir, could we say that order is a certain pattern which we have observed before and found suitable and so we call it order?
10:15	And if we find it unsuitable then we call it disorder?
10:19	K: So you call order the acceptance of a pattern and following it.
10:29	The pattern changing from time to time, modifying, and accepting that pattern or conforming to that pattern you call order.
10:42	Right? Is that it? Q: Yes, sir.
10:47	K: Then dictatorship, it lays down a pattern and you accept that pattern.
10:53	Q: And if you don’t accept it... K: Wait – that’s order.
10:56	Q: Yes. If you find it suitable it is order, sir.
11:03	K: So, suitable according to what? Suitable what? I might like dictatorship. I might say following a pattern is disorder, any pattern.
11:22	Shakuntala Narayan: That sort of order inevitably breeds conflict, doesn’t it?
11:25	K: That’s the whole... that’s the point. Is the indication of conflict disorder?
11:39	When there is conflict is there disorder?
11:46	Go on, please.
11:57	Q: Order does seem to imply some harmony.
12:07	K: Harmony.
12:08	Q: And a relationship where things are in an appropriate way to one another.
12:16	Q: Lacking conflict.
12:19	K: Not in conflict, he says. So, to live a harmonious life, you’II call it a life of order – is that it?
12:29	Q: I would.
12:33	K: What may be harmonious to you may be disharmony to me, and then you and I would be in conflict.
12:53	Q: Well, then we wouldn’t be in harmony and there wouldn’t be order between us.
12:57	K: No, but we must find out what we mean by harmony and what we mean by disharmony – comes to same thing.
13:06	SN: Don’t we have to look at the question of conflict first, before?
13:11	K: Conflict. All right, what is conflict?
13:23	Go on, sirs. Are you asleep this morning? Carol Smith: Conflict is when there seems to be a choice – should I do this or should I do that?
13:36	K: Oh, that means when there is choice there is confusion.
13:48	So confusion is disorder. So disorder implies choice.
14:01	When there is no confusion there is no choice. Therefore, when there is no choice that is order. Is that it?
14:17	CS: When there is no confusion the mind is in a tranquil state and one could say it’s working orderly.
14:25	Isn’t the disorder more a result of the confusion?
14:28	K: May we put it round this way? Do I live inwardly and outwardly a disordered life, a contradictory life?
14:43	Say one thing, do another, think one thing and say something different.
14:52	The contradiction inside me, psychologically, would you call that disorder?
15:03	Q: Yes.
15:05	K: You would. Now, let’s start from there simply; let’s start from there.
15:12	I am aware, know, or conscious that I live a disordered life, psychologically – right? – inwardly.
15:24	And that expresses itself outwardly in disorder. Right?
15:31	Both outwardly and inwardly there is disorder. Am I aware of it? Are you aware of it?
15:48	Come on. Are you aware, know, that you live a disorderedly life?
15:58	I mean by disorderly life, a contradictory life, a life wanting something and not wanting, contradiction, conflict, opposing desires, all that. Are you aware of it?
16:20	Q: Yes.
16:21	K: Now, wait a minute, go slow, go very slowly. Are you aware of it because I point it out to you?
16:31	Q: I think that while it’s going on I’m not so much aware of it as I’m aware of its consequences. K: Yes. So are you...
16:38	No, I am asking you, are you aware of the fact – fact, not the consequences yet, fact that you are in disorder – conforming, imitating, comparing – you follow? – desiring one thing and opposing that desire, thinking one thing, doing something else, saying something and acting in opposition to what you have said – all that makes up, constitutes disorder.
17:22	Am I aware of it? Or I am aware of it because you point out, point it out to me.
17:33	Which is it?
17:35	Q: It seems that even if we are aware that we think one thing and do another, we think we can separate these things. K: Yes, I understand that.
17:46	Q: We think that things inside and things outside are different.
17:48	K: But are you aware of it, first? Let’s start with that.
17:52	Q: I think that perhaps I am aware that I am thinking one thing and doing another thing, but I am not aware that that is a disorder.
18:01	K: Isn’t it? Q: No, you have told us.
18:05	K: I say one thing and do quite the opposite of it. I saw one of the cabinet ministers. He told me something. He said he didn’t want to belong to the government – I don’t know why he was in it – and so he went on for about a half an hour.
18:25	And next morning he gets upon onto the platform, gives a talk exactly the opposite of what he told me.
18:34	He knows very well what he said – contradictory, you follow? That’s a political game. When I met him the next time, he said, ‘That’s politics.’ So, I am asking you: are you aware that you say one thing and do another?
18:59	Let’s begin with a very simple fact. When you are aware of it, of saying one thing and doing another, would you call that disorder?
19:21	Q: Is not the whole of the human morality disorder?
19:24	K: No, no, not the whole human world – just take a little bit, a little bit at a time.
19:34	Come on, sirs, let’s talk about this. It’s rather interesting if you will kindly go into this.
19:44	Q: I was thinking before, disorder between two people would be because one person has one view, the second person has the other view, and then conflict.
19:52	K: No, I am not talking of views, I am not talking of opinions, judgement, taste, outlook, but simple fact: I say one thing and do another.
20:11	Q: Isn’t that the same? Because inside we have the same thing going on: one part says one thing, another part says something else.
20:19	K: That’s all, that’s all, just hold to that. Would you say that is disorder? That’s all my point. I just want to begin very simply, first.
20:36	Are you aware of this fact, saying one thing and doing another? Yes?
20:44	Then what next? Joe Zorskie: Sir, do people say one thing and do another? When I look at people and when I look at myself I don’t think that they do that. I think that they do what they think.
21:00	However, their way of thinking is quite twisted so that any action they perform they can internally with their thinking justify it.
21:10	K: Ah, no.
21:12	JZ: They adapt a way of thinking that makes anything – killing, stealing... (Inaudible) K: No, no, Mr Joe, I am not talking of that. Please, let’s stick to... begin little by little, go into much... I am not thinking, I am not... I am asking myself: I say one thing and do something else.
21:33	That’s all. Of that I know very well. What the source of that is, is quite a different matter. Why I say one thing and do another is quite... the reason of it, is quite a different matter. I am just beginning, sir; I just want to go slow, step by step. If I am aware of it, do I disregard it and say, ‘Well, that’s...’?
22:03	Or do I say, ‘I must do something about it’? Do I want to live a life which says, ‘This is what I think, this is what I do. What I think, I do’?
22:26	What I think may be wrong, but what I think, I do.
22:37	Are you aware of this? If you are aware of it, why is there this contradiction?
22:49	Go on, dear, please.
22:51	Q: How can you disregard it if nothing is consistent? Nothing is consistent in itself, so you can’t disregard it.
22:58	K: I’m not... look, I am not going... consistency, integrity and all the rest of it, I am taking just two facts... one simple fact: that I say one thing and do another. That’s all.
23:13	Q: Well, everything is like this. K: Wait, sir.
23:18	Q: Is it perhaps because I am frightened of people?
23:22	K: I don’t know, I am going to find out. I am not going to jump to any conclusions, I’ve...
23:32	When I discover that I say one thing and do quite the opposite to what I have said, does it make you a little bit horrified?
23:48	Does it make you a little bit – not guilty – you say, ‘Why am I doing this?’ Don’t you ask that?
23:57	Do you? Why are you doing it?
24:09	Come on. Why are doing it? Is it you are frightened of the person... you are frightened and therefore you say one thing and do the opposite because inside you’re uncertain? Is that it? Right?
24:31	So, I am uncertain of what to do, and so I say one thing and do the opposite of that.
24:45	So it means I am uncertain inside. I am just talking aloud. I may change this. I am uncertain. Right? Would you accept that? Oh no, come on, don’t just sit there.
25:06	Q: Yes. That’s a fairly easy thing to accept. Most of us are uncertain.
25:14	K: Yes, uncertain.
25:17	CS: Sir, if you say something in anger, or what have you, and when you think about it you have no intentions of carrying it out.
25:24	K: Yes. I mean, if I say something in anger and then withdraw it, that’s clear.
25:33	CS: But if one wanted to be a purist, you could say you are not doing what you said.
25:38	K: No, that’s... ‘I am sorry, I said that in anger, I didn’t mean it, and let’s forget it.’ CS: If you can’t see what you say is necessarily good or the right thing, or what you do, it could be either that are confused.
25:58	You see what I am saying?
25:59	K: No, I am very simple person; I want to begin very simply. I say one thing and do another. Is it because I am frightened? Is it because I am uncertain? Is it because I am with people who are much stronger than me and I accept their views, think according to what they want to do?
26:24	When I leave them I do the opposite. So I am... Which means I am being influenced. Right?
26:36	Right? I am influenced here at Brockwood. We’re influenced by the people that are here, and when I go out I am influenced by the newspapers, politics, politicians, mother, grandmother – influenced. Is that it?
26:59	So, as I am rather a weak person, I am easily pushed around.
27:07	And being pushed around means I say one thing and do another.
27:17	Right? Would you say that?
27:21	Q: We don’t usually say that, sir. We usually say that we are choosing. We don’t say we are moved by fear or by influence, we usually say, ‘Well, I can do this and this will happen, and I can do this and this will happen, so I’II do this.’ K: Let’s begin then. Are you being influenced?
27:46	Q: Yes.
27:49	K: Here? Q: Yes.
27:52	K: Why? Why do you accept influence?
28:00	Q: Because I am weak.
28:06	K: So, are you aware – please, go step by step – are you aware that you are weak?
28:15	Q: Yes, sir. K: Then what takes place? I am aware that I am weak. And I am aware, being weak, I become like a weathervane, turning whichever way the wind blows. Right?
28:31	Am I like that? Are you like that? Q: Yes, sir.
28:34	K: Are you quite sure? Q: Yes.
28:37	K: Then what will you do?
28:42	Q: What we usually do is set up an idea of strength and...
28:47	K: No, what do you actually do? I am asking him, and therefore I am asking all of you because most of us are in that position. Right?
28:57	Easily being influenced. Right? Easily slaves to propaganda.
29:11	Easily pushed around by parents, by teachers, by society, by anybody that comes along and pushes. Right.
29:20	If I am aware of that, what do I do next? I acknowledge that I am weak. And because I am weak I form groups, I join those groups which are fairly strong as it happens in this place, doesn’t it?
29:39	You have group formation, don’t you? You have groups. So all that indicates that you cannot stand by yourself. Right?
29:51	CS: Sir, when you say it’s a weakness, isn’t it also that the person actually wants something from the person who is influencing you?
30:01	K: Yes. C S: And because he wants something he more or less is willing to be influenced.
30:07	K: Yes, I want something and therefore I am influenced – is that it?
30:13	CS: Well, he wants the security of belonging to that group.
30:16	K: So, wait a minute, so go into it a little bit slowly. That is, I am weak and I am easily influenced.
30:26	Therefore with one group I say one thing, with another group I say the opposite.
30:32	CS: The weakness is only in one sense. It seems that it’s not as though the person has a weak image of oneself for what he wants – that’s seems quite strong.
30:42	K: Yes. I have not yet come to the image part. Don’t go too quickly. So I am aware that I am weak. Are you really aware that you’re weak? Mary Zimbalist: When does it become weakness, sir? Because we are influenced, quite possibility rightly, by an infinity of facts. I am influenced by... (inaudible) K: I know there are infinite... Maria, I know... Look, don’t bring in too many things.
31:18	MZ: I know, but we now have a concept of influence as being only weakness.
31:24	K: No, our whole life may be the result of immense propaganda.
31:34	I am a Christian because I’ve been told about Jesus from childhood.
31:42	MZ: How do we divide that kind of pernicious influence that leads to weakness or is based on weakness, and the natural interaction of facts, of relationship, of a thousand things, which does not resemble weakness necessarily?
32:03	Q: Is the question, for example, when my teacher teaches me maths, am I influenced? K: Oh, good God!
32:12	No, sir, you see, you are spreading the net of influence over everybody.
32:19	MZ: Well, where are you stopping it?
32:24	Q: We were keeping it pretty simple.
32:27	Q: Could we stick to what we were...
32:35	K: You see, if I am influenced, I want to find out why I accept influence.
32:43	It doesn’t matter, I am taking that – just please let me go with that one thing then we can get somewhere.
32:50	There may be a hundred reasons, doesn’t matter. I know I am weak and I know I am easily influenced. Right? Right? Would you accept that? Are you like that? Good. Then what do you do? Jane Hoare: It’s seen while it’s happening, but often I am influenced without knowing it and I wake up afterwards.
33:25	K: Are you aware of it being influenced, consciously, or do you...
33:34	I am influenced unconsciously, by the radio, by the television, by newspapers, by the books I read – so all my life is being influenced, put upon.
33:51	JH: But deeper than that, parts of myself that I don’t know anything about are influenced without me knowing it.
34:05	Q: Then we can’t really talk about it, if we don’t know anything about it.
34:16	Q: I think a lot of strength is gathered when you are fulfilling some sort of purpose, but if you don’t want to fulfil any purpose you don’t have that strength.
34:30	K: I’m getting lost.
34:39	Q: Can we just take it back to simple influence? If someone talks to me and I agree with them.
34:46	K: Yes, that’s all I want to stick to one thing and then work it out, and see, in doing that, include everything else, all the hundred other facts.
34:58	I am influenced because I am weak.
35:05	Does strength mean – please, listen – does strength mean being not be influenced?
35:20	Q: Yes. K: Does it?
35:23	SS: I would say that’s a trap.
35:30	K: A trap. I quite agree – that’s a great trap.
35:34	Q: (Inaudible) K: No, you haven’t followed, sir. You haven’t followed Mr Smith.
35:45	He says: does it mean I am very strong when I am not influenced? And he says that’s a dangerous trap. Do you understand what that means?
35:58	Q: I don’t know exactly, but...
36:01	K: Therefore, find out what it means before you go to something else. He says: when I realise I am weak and therefore I am influenced and I then hope I’II be very strong in myself, and nothing will influence me.
36:22	And he says that’s a very dangerous trap.
36:27	Q: Can we find out? K: Ask him, ask him, discuss with him.
36:32	Q: Why is it a trap? K: Ask him.
36:38	SS: It’s a trap because you have made up an idea about yourself, about what you want to be, and because of that you are turning away whatever comes to you in the name of its being an influence on you.
37:02	So you are operating through the name of influence. Is that clear?
37:06	K: You see what he is saying? When I realise I am weak and therefore I am influenced, and from that I say, ‘I must be very strong,’ what does that mean? I become obstinate.
37:24	I become... I enclose myself. And because I am very strong nobody can touch me. Which means I won’t even listen to something which may be true.
37:41	That’s what he’s trying to say. And also weakness – is strength the opposite of weakness?
37:53	If it is, it is weak. You understood that?
37:59	Q: Can we go... K: Wait – have you understood that?
38:05	SN: Are you saying, sir, that the opposites contain the seed of the opposite?
38:09	K: That’s just it. The weakness I have, and I try to be strong, the strength is derived from weakness.
38:23	Therefore it’s still weak. You get it? That’s what he calls a trap. I haven’t really moved away from weakness. Is that clear?
38:40	Q: It’s not totally clear.
38:47	K: Sir, any opposite – what? – anger and – what?
38:57	Oh, come on, help me out. Q: Complexity.
39:04	Calmness. Anger and calmness.
39:07	SN: Tranquillity, calmness, I don’t know.
39:13	Q: I don’t know what the opposite of anger is.
39:17	K: Well, so you work it out. Q: Cultivated calmness.
39:27	K: Cultivated calmness – all right. Anger and cultivated calmness.
39:36	The cultivated calmness has a reason, because I was angry, therefore it is the result of anger. Right?
39:45	Q: Yes. K: Yes. Get on with it, that’s enough. So, my question then is not how to be strong, but why is there...
40:02	why is my mind being influenced?
40:11	And I discover that I have been influenced from childhood.
40:18	Right? Right? I discover that all mankind – all mankind – has been programmed – right? – Catholic, protestant, communist, socialist, rich man – you follow? – my brain has been conditioned from the very beginning of time.
40:48	No?
40:55	Would you see that? Do you see that? Do you accept that? Do you see the truth of it or the falseness of it?
41:08	Look, I was born in the family which is called... which calls itself Catholic. And the parents for the last fifty years have been conditioned to be Catholics, so I become a Catholic.
41:23	And my grandmother has been conditioned to be a Catholic. My great-grandmother has been conditioned – great-, great-, great-, I can go back. So I am the result of all this conditioning, which means all this influence. Right?
41:44	So I ask myself: is it possible not be conditioned, not to be influenced?
41:53	Not to be strong, but is it possible not to be influenced, to understand the whole momentum of influence?
42:09	What do you say, sirs?
42:15	Q: I think that you have to be more clear what you mean by influence, because you have to respond in some way.
42:22	K: Look, sir, I am now influencing you.
42:28	Q: Yes, but... K: No?
42:30	Q: Yes, but... (inaudible) K: Wait. Listen. I am now influencing you – am I?
42:41	Q: Well, you make something happen in us.
42:43	K: No, I am asking you, am I influencing you now?
42:48	Q: Yes.
42:58	Dorothy Simmons: Surely it isn’t to be influenced if you consider all the facts relevant to the situation.
43:04	K: I beg your pardon, I can’t hear.
43:07	DS: Surely it’s not to be influenced to be aware of the relevant facts of a situation.
43:13	K: So you say I am not influencing you.
43:16	DS: No.
43:18	K: Why? Because you say I am aware of the fact of what you’re saying.
43:26	I am aware of it therefore I am not being influenced by it. I see what is actually going on therefore I am not influenced.
43:35	MZ: You are influenced by the fact to which your attention has been drawn.
43:44	K: Yes, that is not influence. That’s not influence.
43:48	MZ: That’s what I think the question was: how are you using this word influence? Why is that not influence?
43:55	DS: He’s drawing your attention to it.
43:57	K: I draw – wait a minute – I draw your attention, I draw your attention to a snake, to the danger of a snake.
44:07	Is that influence?
44:10	MZ: You are influencing...
44:11	K: No, wait, wait, I am taking one example, please.
44:15	MZ: In order to consider the danger of a snake, it has altered your view or your action.
44:21	K: No, no. I say, ‘Look, that is a cobra, that is a viper, look at it, watch, it is a dangerous snake.’ That’s not influence.
44:36	Q: Are we using influence to mean something that prevents us from seeing things as they are?
44:42	K: That’s right.
44:44	MZ: Well, would you say that the influence causes your action or your thinking – which is more or less the same – to be altered?
44:55	Is that influence? K: Yes, yes.
44:59	MZ: If you tell me that that’s a poisonous snake, it’s going to alter my attitude towards the snake.
45:03	K: No, we are not offering opinions, we are dealing with facts.
45:08	MZ: But it’s a fact that it’s a cobra.
45:10	JZ: Mary, I think Krishnamurti is offering a new use of the word ‘influence’.
45:15	MZ: Well, that’s what I’m trying to find out.
45:16	JZ: Yes, but not everything which changes your actions is an influence.
45:23	He’s suggesting that if you see that it’s raining outside and you put on a raincoat, he is saying let’s not use the word ‘influence’ in that case.
45:31	MZ: Well, let’s then be very clear.
45:33	K: Yes, that’s a very good example. I say to you, ‘It is raining, please put on a raincoat.’ That’s not influence.
45:43	Q: But on a spring day my energy is influenced. On a spring day, my whole seeing is influenced.
45:52	Q: Why don’t we just keep it simple in seeing that if someone influences you that means that you are not able to see it.
46:00	K: I influence you to change your opinion.
46:03	Q: If you tell me it is raining I can very easily… (inaudible) K: Yes, verify it.
46:08	Q: But if you tell me something and, for me, I change my opinion or idea, if it’s just in that realm of intellectual...
46:19	K: That’s right, sir, that’s very simple.
46:20	Q: Then it’s simple.
46:21	K: That is, I am a Catholic and you are a Muslim. You come along and influence me to change my opinion and become a Muslim.
46:32	Which both are non-facts.
46:36	Q: Sir? Excuse me, sir, to make the example of the cobra more explicit, if you say there is a cobra there and if you just tell me to look at it, but what if you tell me I should avoid it or to be scared of it?
46:54	K: No, I say, ‘Look.’ I don’t even tell you that’s a danger. All right, sir, a precipice – any danger which is a fact – ‘A bus is coming along, don’t stop in its way, it’II kill you.’ That is not influence.
47:12	Q: Sir, but if you want me to jump out of the way that might be influence then.
47:22	Q: In that particular case, if you just say, ‘There’s a bus coming,’ you won’t wait to be told what to do, you’II just jump out of the way.
47:30	K: Exactly.
47:31	Q: Well, because I have been influenced…
47:33	Q: No, no, just because you see it, you’II jump.
47:36	Q: No, but I have previously known that if a bus hits me then, you know, that will be the end.
47:41	Q: OK. Harsh Tanka: Maybe the confusion is that even if you point out something, a fact, and if I don’t look at that fact and verify it and just accept what you said...
48:00	K: Yes, that’s just what I’m trying get at, sir. When you say you are aware that you are weak, is that a fact or an idea? You follow?
48:22	Q: Well, doesn’t it always have to be an idea? Isn’t that another trap, that question, the way you have phrased it?
48:31	K: It’s not a trap, sir. Look...
48:34	Q: Is there a person, I mean, is there a self inside the person that is either weak or not weak, and that by looking in a certain way that a person can see whether he is a weak person or not?
48:49	I mean, can we actually give an attribute to a self of weakness or strength?
48:56	K: No, no, not attribute to yourself. You are being influenced, pushed around – right? – that’s a fact.
49:11	And are you aware that you are being pushed around? That’s all I am asking.
49:18	Or you make an idea of being pushed around, and aware of the idea not the fact.
49:38	Is that complex?
49:46	Do you see that? That is, I am jealous; there is jealousy.
49:54	You come along and tell me, ‘You are jealous,’ and I make an idea of jealousy but I don’t actually realise I am jealous.
50:06	You understand? The idea and the actual. Now, so I am asking you: are you aware that you are weak, being pushed around?
50:21	Actual fact, not the idea of being weak.
50:29	Q: Then you mean right here. I mean, I can think about times that I have been influenced and then say, ‘Well, therefore, I have been influenced, I know that.’ But it seems to see it as a fact it must be in this room.
50:48	K: Look, sir, let’s move, change the whole thing differently.
50:55	You are going out into world, aren’t you? What are you going to do?
51:08	Society wants you to do one thing, your parents want you to do something else, and your own inclination may be something quite different, and the pressure of earning money – you follow? – all the rest of it, all that is in... you have to face. Right?
51:28	The pressure of the moment, the pressure of the society, the pressure of your parents, the pressure of what you have thought is right, and against – you follow? – all that, you are going to face.
51:45	So, are you being pressured? Do you understand my question? Are you being pushed?
52:00	Therefore you say, ‘Well, I’II get married very quickly, doesn’t matter who it is,’ or, ‘I’II take that job because that’II give me a little money.’ All that means that you are being pressured to do something which may be wrong – which may be right, may be wrong.
52:29	Is that what you are going to do when you leave here? Come on.
52:46	My father is a lawyer and he has got a very good... he belongs to very good firm with other lawyers, and he says, ‘My dear boy, study law.’ He is pressuring me.
53:03	‘You will have a... I will leave all money to you, you’II get into my position.’ You follow? He is pushing me.
53:10	And I, being weak, uncertain, I have to earn money, there is the pressure of all that, and I say, ‘All right, I’II join your firm.’ Which is acting under pressure. Right?
53:31	Or are you going to act – please listen – without any pressure from anybody?
53:48	By your affection for the parents, by your affection for the boy or the girl you have at the moment, by power, position, money, this and that – are you going to be pressurised to do something immediately?
54:08	Or pressurised to do something five years later. You understand my question? Do you? Q: Yes.
54:21	K: So what are you going to do?
54:32	Q: Try and find out why I bow to that pressure.
54:35	K: No, sir, look at it. No, listen carefully. Look at it first. Look at all the things you may be forced to do, compelled to do, pressurised to do, influenced to do.
54:53	At the end of your 30, 40, 50 years, say, ‘Oh, my God, what have I done?
55:02	What a wasted life.’ Right?
55:09	So what are you going to do?
55:16	HT: Even if I decide to act without being influenced, that won’t stop the pressures from coming.
55:23	Pressures will still come at me. K: Wait, wait, I may not stop pressures, but I may... I am aware of the pressures.
55:33	I am cognisant or aware, conscious, how I am being pressurised to do this, that and the other.
55:41	First I am aware of that. And being aware of that I become fairly intelligent. Right? No? Come on, please.
55:56	Q: The pressures are very great. I don’t see how the intelligence comes into it.
56:02	K: Look, this morning – yes, nearly for 35 minutes – we’ve been talking about being pressurised, influenced, compelled.
56:16	When you see all that, how people are behaving under pressure, aren’t you...
56:26	when you are aware of it, isn’t there a... say, ‘By Jove, I must be careful, I must watch. I won’t be pressurised, I won’t be pushed around. I want to find out what is the right thing to do.’ That’s an act of intelligence, isn’t it?
56:42	Q: Sir, but that’s also a reaction to the pressures.
56:45	K: No, no, that’s not a trap, because I have watched myself being pressurised, I watch other people being pressurised – right? – pushed by circumstances, by environment, by the culture in which they live, by the parents, and so on, so on, so on – I watch all this.
57:14	I am not against it; I watched it. So I say, ‘Now, I will find out how to live without being pressurised.’ That’s not a trap.
57:29	Q: But if you think in terms of right and wrong, it’s a trap.
57:33	K: No, I am not talking of right and wrong.
57:35	Q: You were saying right action, you know, what is the...
57:39	K: I’II show it to you. That is, I have been watching people around me and also watching myself, that we are all... that I am pushed around by my parent, by my culture, by my society, by my grandmother, to do something which they all want me to do.
58:00	If my father is a lawyer he says, ‘For God’s sake, become a lawyer,’ because you get more money and I want more money – you follow? – and I like good cars, and I say, ‘All right, I’II join your firm.’ That is being pressurised.
58:19	So, I am aware of all these things happening around me, people caught in this trap. Right?
58:28	Right? So I am not revolting against it, I am watching it.
58:36	Do you understand this? Come on. Do you understand this? I am watching it.
58:42	Q: It’s not necessarily called pressure, this thing. I mean, you may think, you know, ‘I’m doing what I like.’ K: Ah no – which is another pressure. To do what I like, may be that’s the last pressure, that’s the appalling pressure.
59:06	Q: You said also, pressurised, but what is pressurised? It is a very descriptive term. Montague Simmons: There’s a very good example in this if you just look on the notice board. Now Krishnaji is a notice board – he is pointing out the fact. You go along to that notice board and you see folk dancing at 7.30 tonight. You didn’t know there was folk dancing at 7.30 tonight, so you say, ‘Good, I’II go to folk dancing,’ because you want to go to folk dancing.
59:32	But if the folk dancing notice says, ‘Do you want to be beautiful? Come to folk dancing at 7:30 tonight,’ then you’re being pressurised.
59:48	K: My point, sir, and all of you, my point is: I have observed this.
59:56	I have observed how people are being pushed into doing something they may want to do or may not want to do, and so I’m watching it.
1:00:08	And I say to myself: am I also being pushed around, pressured to become something or other, according to my parents, society and so on?
1:00:22	That’s my first question. I don’t say, ‘What is the right thing to do?’ I haven’t come to that yet.
1:00:34	Right? Are you aware of all this?
1:00:41	You are aware of it, aren’t you? If you are aware of it, then what is the next thing?
1:00:53	If you choose one profession, one career, or one thing, you are choosing out of confusion, aren’t you?
1:01:07	Right? I wonder if you see that.
1:01:10	Q: You are choosing one pressure as against another pressure.
1:01:13	K: Yes, you are choosing. I say this may be better, that may be right, so this is more attractive, that’s less attractive, this will give me more money and this will give me less.
1:01:23	So, when there is choice your action will be born out of confusion.
1:01:32	Right? Do you see that?
1:01:44	Q: Is the pressure not mainly caused by the reward and punishment principle?
1:01:56	K: That’s part of it, sir – reward and punishment plays a part in my choice.
1:02:03	Are you getting what I am talking about? So let’s proceed, otherwise we’II have... wasting time.
1:02:12	Q: Sir, I’m not really clear when you say: if there’s a choice then there’s confusion. For example, if it’s raining outside I can choose to put on a coat or to leave it off.
1:02:27	If one job gives me a lot of money and another gives me less. The rain might be such that I need to keep dry. It might be necessary for me to have...
1:02:36	K: Look, sir, the other day – we went yesterday to London. Mrs Simmons chose a road which she knew, therefore there was no choice.
1:02:48	She said, ‘That’s the road I know, I’II go along there.’ But the moment there is doubt between that road and that road you are confused. Keep it very simple at first.
1:03:02	Q: Possibly by taking that known road she has missed a very good road.
1:03:09	Q: But it’s the confusion that we are talking about, involved in it.
1:03:12	K: Then you fly to London. No, let’s get at this. I am aware of people around me who are being pushed, pressurised to do this or that.
1:03:30	And because I am aware of this I become very watchful. Right?
1:03:37	Right? I haven’t decided what to do. I become very watchful.
1:03:45	I see that watchfulness is part of that intelligence which will tell you what to do.
1:03:56	Do you get it? Have I lost you, or you have lost me?
1:04:11	I have lost you, I see. All right.
1:04:14	Q: You are saying that if I don’t watch then…
1:04:19	K:... I am pushed. Q: Yes, and...
1:04:22	K: If I watch... I have observed what is happening around me very carefully, and I have observed that I am also... people are putting pressure on me.
1:04:36	I am aware of it. Right? Are you aware of the fact, not of the idea?
1:04:48	You understand the difference of the fact and the idea that people are being pushed around?
1:04:58	If you are aware of the fact, the actual thing that is happening, then the very watching of it in yourself and others, that very observation is part of intelligence, obviously, and that intelligence is going to tell you what to do when the moment comes.
1:05:27	You have understood what I am saying?
1:05:35	That intelligence is not under pressure; it can’t be.
1:05:42	You understand? Are you also intelligent now? Intelligence in the sense, that intelligence which will tell you what is the right thing to do when you leave here, because you have observed, you have listened, you have seen, you have heard this happening all around you.
1:06:29	You see what I mean? So what are you going to do? Is this intelligence awakening in you?
1:06:40	Or you are going to, at the last moment say, ‘My God, I don’t know what to do, my parents...’ and jump into some trap?
1:06:50	Q: Sir, you say the right thing to do. Does that imply to you that in that particular situation the right thing to do may not be a very noble thing or it may not be something you would... (inaudible) K: All right, I will withdraw that word ‘right.’ Your intelligence – the intelligence; is it not your intelligence or my intelligence – it is that intelligence will tell you what to do.
1:07:17	Q: In that situation.
1:07:18	K: Whatever... No, not in that situation.
1:07:22	Q: Well, life is always changing. K: No, no, you haven’t... Then we’II have to go into it again. I have observed very carefully how human beings all around me are pressured, pushed into various pressures. Right?
1:07:39	If I am an actor’s son, I want to be an actor; if I am a lawyer’s son or daughter – you know, all that.
1:07:49	And I am aware of it, I’m conscious of it, I have watched it.
1:07:58	I cannot watch it fully if I have already made up my mind to go in a particular direction. Right?
1:08:08	I don’t then watch the whole map of this, of what is happening around me. Right? I wonder if you... have you understood? Right? I’II show you.
1:08:22	CS: To go in a particular direction, do you mean that you are set and fixed? I mean, obviously at that moment you’re living somewhere, so you’re somehow earning a living or whatever, going to school, in a sense certain aspects of your life are taking place even though you are open to your life to changing.
1:08:43	K: No, madame, I am saying something entirely different. Please, just a minute. When you look at a map, I mean an ordinary map, do you look at the whole map or you look in a particular direction?
1:09:05	Have you understood? That is, if I want to go from here to – what?
1:09:20	Q: Salisbury. K: Salisbury. If I want to go from here to Salisbury, I don’t look at the whole map – right? – my mind...
1:09:32	I am concentrated on the route from here to Salisbury.
1:09:39	But if have no direction then I see the whole map. Do you understand what I’m...
1:09:47	Q: If I have an idea as to what I should do or what I want to do...
1:09:52	K: Yes, I have none of that. Because I see people around me are being influenced. I see myself being influenced. It is neither good nor bad, I have just watched it. So I am watching it as I would watch a map. Right? But I cannot watch the map if I want... if I am only looking from one place to another. You get it?
1:10:24	So, I say when you are looking at this whole map of influence, pressure, pushing around, conforming – see the whole map of it – the very seeing of it is part of that intelligence. Right? Right?
1:10:46	That intelligence will tell you when you leave Brockwood what to do.
1:10:55	If you haven’t got that intelligence you are going to be caught in the trap.
1:11:02	Am I making this somewhat clear? Yes? Now, are you watching? Or are you saying, ‘I must be that’? I must be a politician or I must be something else.
1:11:24	Because I say don’t decide now, you are too young, but watch, listen, find out.
1:11:40	So in watching, in observing, in listening, you are awakening a different kind of intelligence.
1:11:57	Get it? So don’t decide now what to do. For God’s sake, don’t do it.
1:12:15	But see if you are becoming intelligent, in the sense that we are using – intelligence by observing, listening, watching how people behave.
1:12:32	When you listen to... when you are studying history, watch it very carefully how they are being pressurised – the kings, the queens – you follow? – the whole world.
1:12:55	And therefore order is the operation of that intelligence. Right, sir?
1:13:07	JZ: Can I ask you another question? K: Do you see that? Do you see that? I just caught sight, something of it, the smell of it. Do you see it, Mr Joe?
1:13:15	JZ: (Inaudible) K: No, just stick to it, don’t go off.
1:13:25	Do you see that by watching, listening carefully what is happening around you, in yourself, the very watching is giving birth to a new sense of intelligence?
1:13:47	That intelligence will tell you what to do. And we are saying that intelligence is order. Not my order or your order, because intelligence is not yours or mine.
1:14:06	Q: Is order a necessity?
1:14:13	K: No, no, no – order. You see, you are making it so complex. Just order. It’s not a necessity, it’s order.
1:14:36	You see, we are acting according to what I like and don’t like. Right?
1:14:44	I like to be a lawyer, I like to be a painter, I like something or other. Which is, I say that very like will bring about a contradiction.
1:14:58	Right? Of course, that’s a well-known trap.
1:15:03	Q: I don’t understand. It’s not usually said that way, that to do what you like is pressure.
1:15:12	K: Yes, I said to do what you like. Now, wait, that’s very complex, let’s go into it. To do what you like. What do you like to do, actually?
1:15:30	Not study, have a good time.
1:15:40	Q: I do like to study.
1:15:42	K: I am asking. Some people like to study. What is you like to do?
1:15:58	I never, personally, I never thought about what I would like to do. It may surprise you. I have never thought about it. I think it is so limited, so petty to say, ‘I like to do this.’ I am not influencing you.
1:16:24	I say to myself, I have watched everything around me. I watched religious organisations, how they corrupt people.
1:16:37	I was the head of an organisation of such a kind and I said... and watching it intelligence said dissolve it, get rid of it.
1:16:49	Therefore there was a right action.
1:16:56	You understand what I’m saying? So, are you, being young and not – you cannot decide what you are going to do 15 years later – you say, ‘Wait’ – or ten years or five years – you say, ‘I am going to observe, I am going to learn through observation, watching myself and others.’ We are doing something somebody wants us to do, and the somebody wanting us to do something becomes, ‘I want to do that.’ You follow? So, I am watching.
1:17:43	I haven’t got to decide for other five years, two years – I am just watching.
1:17:51	And out of that watching, something takes place which is neither yours nor mine.
1:18:05	And then when there is that intelligence, nothing can influence, nobody can put you under pressure.
1:18:24	And I think that is part of our education at Brockwood, to see that you are watching, watching, watching, not coming to any conclusion, any saying this is right, this wrong, I must, I must not.
1:18:45	Cut out all that; just watch.
1:18:56	They wanted me – sorry, this is just... I have finished talking – they wanted me to stay in India for a year.
1:19:08	They said, ‘Why do you travel? Why do you go away from India to Brockwood or America? Stay here for a year.’ I said, ‘Why?’ They said, ‘You will... instead of six thousand people at a meeting – six to seven – you will have thirty thousand.
1:19:27	You will be known all over India, everybody will know you. Not know me personally but what you are talking about, your teaching.’ And I said to them, ‘Why?
1:19:42	Why can’t you do all this yourself, instead of me?’ You follow what I’m saying?
1:19:50	You understand what I’m... And they said, ‘But we can’t do it, we are not like you.’ I said ‘Why not? Because you haven’t gone into this.’ Right? So I said to myself, ‘What is the right thing? What is intelligence?’ Say, ‘Buzz off, leave.’ Otherwise they’II make me into a tin god – you follow? – or some kind of idiocy.
1:20:19	So I said, ‘That’s too appalling.’ Right? So please watch.
1:20:33	Don’t let your desire or your parents, somebody, tell you what to do, just watch.
1:20:57	Watch how you sit, how you walk, how you watch your thoughts. May I tell you one thing? One thing, I’II stop after. Watch your thinking.
1:21:09	Don’t let one thought escape from you without your knowing it. You understand what I’m saying? Do you understand?
1:21:22	Do you understand something? You are thinking something and another thought comes in, so watch that thought, every... don’t let any thought escape from you.
1:21:42	So it means be aware of every thought.
1:21:49	And do you know what it does? It gives great muscle to your brain – you follow? – makes you tremendously alert.
1:22:04	DS: You might become muscle-bound.
1:22:08	K: What? I can’t hear, sorry.
1:22:13	DS: Well, it’s rather a negative thing to do, isn’t it? Unless you see something from catching all those thoughts, you’re going to be involved in an endless job.
1:22:26	K: No, watch it, casually, you know. Don’t let any thought escape.
1:22:34	That means you know what you are thinking. It is not an all-day job. When you read, when you have to study a book, you study it. But in studying it your thought comes in, and be aware of it.
1:23:00	So it gives a sharpness to your brain. You follow? Right, we’d better stop. Sorry, no more meetings until I come back in May.