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BR77DSS2.3 - Freedom, authority and responsibility
Brockwood Park, UK - 6 October 1977
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.3



0:19 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:29 You asked the other day about conditioning, attachment, and also we talked about sex and pleasure.
0:48 So, what would you like to talk about this morning?
1:02 Questioner: Freedom.

K: Freedom.
1:05 K: Right. Shall we talk about that?
1:13 Q: Responsibility.
1:22 K: Responsibility. So, let's talk about freedom and responsibility, shall we?
1:38 No, I am not going to dig a hole and you just watch me, but we are all going to dig the hole.
1:51 What do you think is freedom?
2:00 What do you mean by freedom, to be free?
2:11 We generally think of freedom in terms of a reaction from something, away from something.
2:22 Right? If I am poor, I want to be rich – that is freedom. Away from what I am, something totally different from what I am. Would you call that freedom? And is there freedom when you say, I must do what I feel?
2:52 Is that freedom? Please. And what is the relationship of freedom to authority?
3:23 If there is freedom, the man who is free, what is his responsibility to another, to society, to mankind?
3:36 So all these problems are involved in freedom. Shall we go into it?
3:47 Yes? You really want to talk about it, don't you? It isn't a bore? All right. We generally think of freedom as being free from something.
4:15 If there is fear, to be free from fear. If there is pain, to be free from pain and so on.
4:32 So we always consider that 'away from' is freedom, freedom from something.
4:43 Freedom from authority. Right? Before we can go into the question of freedom from authority, what do we mean by authority?
5:01 What do you mean by authority? If your parents tell you what to do, would you call that authority?
5:24 Would you call the assertion of authority, the imposition of another's will or desire or opinion upon you?
5:40 And that you call authority, to influence you for your good, to influence you in the name of: I love you and I must tell you what you must do.
5:54 Right? And any form of influence, trying to persuade you, trying to tell you what you should do, because the other person who is in a position of authority says, this is good for you.
6:19 This is right for you. This you should do. Right? All that you would call authority, wouldn't you? No? Come on, please.
6:40 Yes?
6:50 And if there is no authority at all, there is nobody telling you what to do, what would happen?
7:07 The law in this country says keep to the left when you drive. When you go abroad, it says keep to the right. And if there was no authority at all, what would happen?
7:25 If there was no policeman to tell you, keep to the left, or indications to keep to the right, what would happen?
7:32 You would have an awful mess, wouldn't you? No? So, where do you draw the line between authority and freedom?
7:54 Here we are in a small community of 100 people or so.
8:04 If each one did what one likes to do and say, I have come here to be free, what would happen?
8:18 Go on, sir. I was in a school in India several years ago, where we said, let every student do what he likes, because they have misunderstood authority, and for a week the principal said, all right, there is no authority, do what you like.
8:46 Ms Pearce was there at the time. And it was such a colossal mess.
8:56 Everything was messy. So, where do you draw the line? In a community of this kind, what do you do?
9:13 Go on, please, discuss with me.
9:18 Q: I don't necessarily agree with this, but our culture tells us that we should be allowed to do whatever we want if it doesn't affect other people.
9:29 K: But it will affect other people, living in a small community.
9:34 Q: There are some actions, some people say, that don't affect.
9:38 K: Let's find out, let's go into it, that is what I am asking. Where do we, all together, living in a community, and being responsible – we will come to that presently too – where do you draw the line?
9:52 Where do you say this is freedom, and this is authority?
10:06 Q: There are certain things that have to be done here.
10:11 K: Yes. Things have to be done – where do you draw the line?
10:17 Q: That doesn't require authority because it is a necessity. There isn't any one person to tell you.
10:22 K: You may think that is a necessity, I may not.
10:25 Q: Like cooking food. It has to be done.
10:30 K: But when you say it has to be done, I may think why should it be done?
10:39 So you are all living together here. We said there is no authority. Where do you draw the line between authority and freedom?
10:51 Responsibility and freedom?
10:59 Q: There is a difference between authority that follows necessities and authority that follows egoistic aims.
11:22 Scott Forbes: He said that there is authority that follows necessity and authority that follows egotistical aims.
11:31 K: If we all agree after considerable talking over together that we should all be punctual for meals, would there be any authority?
11:44 We all agree. Right? Would there be any authority? Oh, come on.
11:53 Q: No, it is common agreement.
11:56 K: So, when we all talk things over reasonably, clearly, see the thing together, then there is no authority.
12:06 We all do it naturally. Right? So, do we see reasonably and clearly that if each one does what he likes there will be utter chaos?
12:34 But if you want to do something and you come up against a whole group of people like us, and yesterday you said you agreed, saw the reason why you should do this or that, and you suddenly change your mind, and if somebody says, look, you agreed, why don't you that?
12:58 you then tell me, or the other, that I am authoritarian.
13:07 So where is your responsibility? Come on.
13:21 You know, this is really a very difficult subject because all our conditioning, all our culture, a great deal is based on what other people have told us.
13:39 The Church, the politicians, the literature, the whole thing is a subtle form of propaganda to make one do what others think that you should do, which ultimately culminates in the totalitarian state, where there is no freedom.
14:09 I don't know if you have been reading – this morning there was an article in the Herald Tribune by Sahara, where he is saying there is no freedom, and so on.
14:24 But a there is a whole group of people who say, this is the right thing to do.
14:32 The Politburo tells you exactly what to do and if there is any dissent, any freedom to say, no, I don't think so, you are punished.
14:47 The Catholic Church did it in the old days through inquisition, excommunication, burning, torture, etc.
14:56 The same thing is being done politically in Russia, in the totalitarian states.
15:04 Right? Fortunately, in this country, in America and in Western Europe, there is no totalitarian state, so far.
15:19 So, as a group of people, trying to live an intelligent life, what is the place in their life with regard to authority?
15:34 Go on, sir, I am talking.
15:38 Q: We must make it clear if we are not in agreement. If there is something put up and we are not in agreement with it.
15:46 K: All right. Agreement depends on choice, doesn't it? You say something and I don't like what you say, and I choose to go in the opposite direction, or I have my own ideas.
16:11 So why shouldn't we have choice at all?
16:14 Q: I think we must see if...

K: Wait a minute, sir. Why should we agree or disagree about being punctual with regard to lunch? I am taking the most absurd example. Why should there be agreement? We all talk it over together, reason together, see the necessity of it, the convenience and so on, and it is finished.
16:40 There is no agreement or disagreement.
16:45 SF: Often though, at some moment when we are thinking clearly, we can see that one thing is necessary and it makes a lot of sense, but later on, we get caught in something else and in a sense we don't maintain that agreement.
17:06 K: I would never bring in this argument: agreement or disagreement – to me, that is totally wrong.
17:12 SF: We might see that it makes a great deal of sense to be punctual for meals, for instance, but then, possibly, we are outside, we are enjoying ourselves very much.

K: Then that is a different matter.
17:22 K: If you are outside, if something happens, if you have walked too far and you can't get back in time, that is quite a different matter.
17:30 You apologise, and you have cold food but you quickly eat and get on so that you will be out of the dining room.
17:38 Q: Aren't you suggesting that an agreement is a subtle form of an oath?
17:42 K: No, I think in a community of this kind, there should be no agreement.
17:52 Not an oath, no.
17:54 Q: No, that is what I am saying. I am saying that in a sense, an agreement isn't necessary if you see the same thing.
18:00 K: If we all see the same thing, there is no need for agreement.
18:04 Q: Yes.

K: Right?
18:07 K: If we all see we must be in bed by 10 o'clock or whatever it is, it is finished, it needs no agreement.
18:16 But if you, in discussion, in talking things over, keep quiet and say, I am going to do exactly what I want to do, and you do something when all of us have agreed, have seen the fact, not agreed, then somebody tells you, please, you are late, go to bed, and you turn to that person and say, you are authoritarian.
18:40 It becomes so absurd. I don't know if you see this.
18:49 K: Don't use the words 'in agreement'.
18:54 K: Look, Shankar, if you all see that is a carpet, it is a carpet.
19:00 Q: Yes, but when everyone else sees it and you don't, it is difficult to keep saying, I don't see it.
19:05 K: What are the things over which we see totally differently?
19:26 If you are in disorder, inwardly and outwardly, you are creating the authority, aren't you?
19:44 No?
19:50 Q: But you might say that there is no thing to see but that we just have opinions.
19:59 Some people say that there is just opinions.
20:05 K: Look, there is no opinion about the carpet. If you say that is a skin of a zebra, and we all agree that it is a skin of a zebra, then it is all right.
20:23 Q: You are picking very easy examples.
20:26 K: Take the most complicated examples. I would like to discuss it. Go on.
20:35 Q: Take the morning meeting, again, for the 500th time.
20:43 It is clear to me that the morning meeting is a good idea, but it is not clear to me that it is a necessary idea that is made without choice.
20:52 K: All right. Let's talk about it, shall we?
20:54 Q: Yes.
20:56 K: By Jove. The morning meeting is at eight o'clock. Right? Why do you have morning meetings?
21:16 Tell me. Those who want it and those who don't want it – those who want it, why do you want it?
21:25 Why do you want to meet at eight o'clock? And those of you who don't want it, why not? Why don't you want it?
21:37 Because you want to get up late? Please, go into it.
21:47 Q: It seems a nice way to start the day, to start the runnings of the school.
21:53 K: No, not running the school. Why do you want to meet at eight o'clock in the morning? Why? And there must be somebody here who says, I don't want it. Why don't you want it?
22:17 If you don't talk, what am I to do?
22:22 Q: They might not say they don't want it, but they might feel it is not so important to come every time.
22:28 K: Explain to me why it is not important.
22:32 Q: I personally don't think you need a certain time of day to meditate. If you pick a certain time of day to be here, all at the same time, and you wouldn't normally do it, that is already causing conflict.
22:54 K: You are not giving me reasons why you want to meet in the morning and why you don't want to meet in the morning, at eight o'clock.
23:05 Q: Krishnaji, I think he did explain why he didn't want to meet in the morning.
23:08 K: What?

Q: He said that, to meet regularly every morning when you are not used to it...
23:17 K: So, is it a matter of habit?
23:24 If you are going at eight o'clock because you have got into the habit of going there – is it a matter of habit that you go there?
23:33 Because you are used to cleaning your teeth at 7:30, so you clean your teeth at 7:30 and go to a meeting at eight o'clock because that is your habit?
23:43 Is that the reason you go, out of habit?
23:49 Q: It seems we are not clear. We are not clear on the intention.
23:58 K: All right. Let's get clear, shall we? Shall we get clear? Do you agree? Those of you who want to go, those of you who don't want to go, let's both of us meet and make it all very clear, shall we?
24:19 What? All right? Dead silence.
24:28 Q: Before we begin, I would like to point out that this is only an example.
24:36 K: That is good enough!
24:37 Q: The morning meeting is an example of a broader topic.
24:40 K: Yes, we will take other topics after this.
24:49 Now, why is there at Brockwood, at eight o'clock in the morning, an assembly of all the school. Why?
25:04 I was partly responsible for the instigating of this.
25:17 Do you want to know why? First of all, you begin the day being quiet.
25:30 Right? Just listen to the reason of it. Not that you accept or say, no, I don't want to listen to you – that is a different matter. But as you are concerned with the eight o'clock assembly, let's talk about it together – I am not laying down the law, I am not telling you you should or should not, but let's talk it over together.
25:54 You wake up in the morning – if you have gone to bed early you feel fairly alert, fairly alive, and get up, and clean your teeth, etc., and the whole day is a constant movement, isn't it?
26:10 Classes, games, talking, eating, there is constant chatter, constant movement of activities.
26:20 Right? Wouldn't it be good to start the day quietly?
26:39 What happens when you meet the assembly? Either you are still sleepy, because you didn't go to bed at the right time, or didn't eat properly at dinner, played too much or talked too much or whatever you did, so you come to the assembly rather tired already.
27:05 Right? Oh, come on.
27:13 And so you wake up, say, at about ten o'clock or nine o'clock when the school begins.
27:23 Then you never feel that your whole body, your mind, everything is quiet.
27:33 Isn't it necessary to be quiet sometime during the day?
27:40 What do you say? No? Isn't it necessary? Why? Find out why it is necessary.
27:57 Q: I think it helps you to be clearer on things.
28:04 K: Yes. Let's go into it. What do you mean by being quiet, the body quiet or the mind quiet, you are not nervous, twitching your fingers, just sitting quietly – what does it do?
28:19 What happens when you sit quietly like that? Tuesday, when the students and I meet, we are going to discuss meditation, so this is part of this.
28:38 What happens when you sit quietly for even ten minutes, five minutes?
28:45 Don't you feel relaxed?
28:52 And your whole body, your mind, everything is in a state of attention.
29:01 No? If you are quiet. And that helps you – if you go into it really seriously – that helps you to gather all your attention, your energies for the day.
29:22 That is the reason I do it a great deal, but forget about me, – for that, to be self-recollected, to be aware in that morning meeting, aware of what I am thinking, what I am feeling, just watch the whole thing, and it helps me to have greater energy to meet the whole day.
29:52 That is the reason I was partly responsible for the morning assembly.
30:04 If you can do that same thing, which is, collect all your energy to observe, to be quiet, to listen – if you do it outside, it is all right – but if we do it together, because you are all young, we help each other.
30:27 Right? Do you object to this?
30:32 Q: No, it is not like that all the time.
30:38 K: No, I said morning assembly only.
30:41 Q: Yes, that is what I mean. You are sitting there and feeling that there are some people very vivid, they are not quiet, and you are sitting there and you feel this, somehow.
30:57 SF: He says sometimes you can feel that there is a lot of people that aren't quiet like that.
31:04 K: If we all see the reason of it together, explain reasonably the whole point of meeting in the morning, if we all see the importance of it, we do it.
31:19 SS: But do we all see the point of quietness? I wonder if we all see the point of quietness, to begin with.
31:30 Many days start with noise, for instance.
31:32 K: I know, that is why. Do you see the importance of being quiet in the morning? For five minutes.
31:51 How am I to find out from all of you if you don't talk? Whether you see the reason for being quiet in the morning, just for five minutes or ten minutes, whatever you want.
32:10 Q: I think some of us do.
32:14 K: What will do with the others who don't see this, keep them out?

Q: I don't know, I am wondering.
32:22 K: Do it, find out. What will you do? What is your responsibility in a group who see the necessity of being quiet for five minutes before the whole day of noise begins?
32:41 Q: Talk it over?
32:42 K: Will you? Talk it over. We are doing it now.
32:59 Q: It seems important to be quiet. We were talking about observation the other day, and Arabella was just talking about this, too.
33:11 If we are going to learn about authority...
33:20 K: We began with authority, all that, step by step. Mr Joe raised the question of morning assembly as an example.
33:36 Is anybody forcing you to come? Or is there a general atmosphere of being forced or urged to go there?
33:58 Q: Yes, there seems to be that atmosphere.
34:10 K: Do you see, if I may ask, the importance of being quiet for five minutes, first thing in the morning?
34:24 In India, in the various schools, they start not only the day but each class, they start being quiet for five minutes, before all the information.
34:45 Because when you are quiet you gather the energy to meet the lessons, meet mathematics, etc.
34:55 – it helps you, tremendously. Then, in that quietness, you learn to pay attention.
35:11 And when you have learned attention you can listen much more easily.
35:19 Does this seem unreasonable?
35:27 Why then is there a division amongst us? Why some of you agree – not agree – some of you see the importance of being quiet in the morning, you have reasoned it out and you see it is necessary to be quiet, but why don't the others see it?
35:49 Are there others who don't see this?
35:55 Q: I think there are people in our culture and in our school that don't really see the necessity of having some quiet.
36:06 K: What will you do? This whole section says, yes. This whole section suppose says, no. How will you deal with this? We are all living together.
36:18 SF: I think the problem is a little bit different, Krishnaji.
36:25 I might say, yes, I see that it is important to have the quiet in the morning, but then when the morning comes, to get out of bed, my nice warm bed, it is so difficult that my seeing of it becomes clouded, and I don't get out of bed.
36:45 K: No, I wouldn't put it that your seeing of it is clouded. You are giving a wrong reason. Either you are lazy – if you are lazy, why are you lazy?
37:00 When you are young, why are you lazy? It is all right for old people.
37:11 I don't think it is all right, but I am saying it. Why are you lazy? Is it you play too much? Find out! Is it that you go to bed having too much to eat, food inside your tummy, so you can't properly go to sleep?
37:33 Is it that you have talked too much? Because if you see the importance of a morning assembly, then as that is tremendously important, you adjust everything to that.
37:49 But if that is not important, you say, I am lazy, what does it matter? Today, I will skip.
38:04 Q: I can see the importance of being quiet at the morning meeting but I think it also tries to create a mood.
38:16 K It is not a question of mood. You see, you are all approaching it so wrongly. It is not a question of mood. What do you mean by mood? Depressed? I feel sluggish? What do you mean by mood?
38:39 Q: I think that when you come here and you sit down quietly, your mind will have time to reflect and collect thoughts as you said, but as well, you will be different to when you came in.
39:03 SF: When you come in here and sit quietly, you will be different when you leave than when you came in.
39:10 K: Obviously. You approach the whole day, if you really do it properly, watching.
39:22 It helps you tremendously in all that you are doing.
39:33 Q: But perhaps it is a conditioning process. I think that is what he might be suggesting.
39:39 K: You mean you are used to getting up when you like, getting your own meals at home, doing everything chaotically.
39:50 Is that what you mean by being conditioned?
40:00 Do you as a group see the importance of beginning the day with quietness, with five minutes of sitting quietly, do you see the importance of it?
40:22 Do you? If you do, how are you going to tell the others or help the others to see the importance of it?
40:41 If I urged you, if I influenced you and say, you must come every morning, and if you don't come every morning you have no right to be here and so on, and I force you to come, then you sit there with anger, rebellion, feeling annoyed, and you are not quiet.
41:09 So, can you come voluntarily, easily, happily, because it is explained to you, you see the reason of it, come there and sit quietly – what is wrong with it?
41:25 Q: I feel I go to it voluntarily and I enjoy it but I don't see it as a necessity.
41:35 K: I won't use the word necessity. You enjoy it, you feel it is good to do it.
41:42 Q: Yes.
41:46 K: Wouldn't you like to do it every day?
41:49 Q: Yes. I don't like missing it.
41:52 K: Yes, you like to do it.

Q: Yes.

K: Then what is the problem?
41:55 Q: I don't see it as a complete necessity, though.
41:59 SF: She doesn't see it as a necessity.
42:02 K: All right, don't see it as a necessity. You like it. Full stop. That is all right.
42:12 Q: I like it and I want to come. Tomorrow morning, I want to have a longer shower, because at that moment I like that, and so, that is what usually happens.
42:24 K: Look, if you like to do something very much, really very much, and you feel, I enjoy it, then you make everything fit into that, don't you?
42:46 Q: But isn't that rather like, say, I like to drink something and I keep on drinking whenever I can?
42:56 I don't understand that.
42:59 K: I had to go to the dentist yesterday. I really didn't want to go, not because of the dentist, because I was meditating, etc.
43:08 And I said, for goodness sake, get ready and go. There was no compulsion. You follow?
43:17 Q: No.
43:20 K: Do we all see this together?
43:28 Do you?
43:33 Q: I think that is just it. Many of us think of going to the morning meeting like going to the dentist.
43:40 K: Wait a minute! I went to the dentist, not afraid. I said, if it hurts, it hurts, we will see what happens.
43:56 Q: What you are saying to me is that, at first – it may have only been a small instant of time – there was something that said, I don't want to go the dentist.
44:08 K: Because I was doing something much more important. I was meditating and something much more important than going to the dentist.
44:19 Q: But somehow then you stopped doing what was much more important to do something less important.

K: Yes, it had to be done.
44:28 Q: And I think some people don't see the morning meeting as being so important. It is something that has to be done.

K: That is what I am asking you.
44:37 K: How am I to deal with a group who keep quiet?
44:45 Q: It seems like the people who see how important it is speak up, the people who don't see the importance keep quiet, so we can't get anywhere, and then we are stuck.
44:56 K: Shall we drown them or what?
45:02 Q: But it is just those people who then talk about authority later on. They are being made to do what they don't want to see.
45:11 K: So is it gradual persuasion, gradual forcing you to do something, or we are working together to awaken intelligence?
45:31 Do you follow what I mean? Are we working together to awaken intelligence or are we together here to force each other to do something?
45:44 I think we must be clear on that, first. Remember the first day when we all met, when the school began, I talked about this a little bit: the awakening of intelligence – that is the function of this school.
46:00 Not only to help you to pass examinations if you want to, but the primary reason for the existence of Brockwood is to awaken this kind of intelligence, so that you can meet this tremendously complex life intelligently.
46:23 If you say, sorry, I don't want to be intelligent, then that becomes quite a difficulty.
46:38 But one presumes, perhaps wrongly, that you have come here not only to acquire academic capacities, etc., but also to have this tremendous quality of intelligence.
46:57 And intelligence tells me: sit quietly in the morning.
47:06 I see the importance of it. I sit quietly in the morning. Nobody forces me, nobody tells me I must, I naturally do it, like cleaning my teeth or washing – it is natural.
47:21 But if it is unnatural to you, take time, inquire into it.
47:28 Don't say, I don't want to do it, and be mulish about it.
47:35 Find out, inquire. That is part of the awakening of intelligence.
47:45 Q: To me, it feels like an extension of all the activities of the morning like you get out of your bed and you brush your teeth, you get in your clothes and you wash yourself, then in that time my brain starts working at full speed thinking about what I am going to do the rest of the day and what has to be done.
48:04 K: You see, if you want to go into it very deeply, it is a question of living without habit because habit becomes mechanical.
48:20 And practically all our life is mechanistic. To find out, to live without habits, mechanically doing things, that is part of intelligence.
48:38 If you clean your teeth mechanically then you are not cleaning them properly.
48:45 But if you do it without habit, you clean them much more.
48:57 So, we have to go into the question of habit. Have you habits? It is all right for us old people. Not all right – I am sorry. But have you got habits? Good Lord. Have you?

Q: Yes.
49:18 K: Yes? I am really appalled. What kind of habits?
49:29 Q: For instance, thinking every morning meeting, I am not going to eat too much for breakfast, and get to the breakfast table and still eat too much.
49:42 K: What do you mean by habits? I may have a habit of scratching my head, or I may have a habit of frowning, or I have a habit of twisting my fingers, or I may have a habit of moving my face all the time.
50:04 Have you got such habits?
50:09 Q: Yes.
50:12 K: Have you?
50:19 Why do you have such habits? You know, when you have a habit for many years it is very, very difficult to break it down.
50:36 But if you begin to see the importance of not having habits, they break down by themselves.
50:52 Is it a habit to sit quietly? If it is a habit, it becomes mechanistic, it becomes utterly meaningless.
51:08 I went once to a monastery, I was there for a week, ten days or a fortnight, and I had to follow a routine – two o'clock in the morning, six o'clock, and so on – everything was done by the bell, habit was formed.
51:32 And I didn't want to do it through habit. So gradually I eased myself out of that monastery and let them carry on with what they wanted to do.
51:47 Mary Zimbalist: But could you have stayed in the monastery and done all the things they were doing in a completely different way, not mechanistically?
51:57 K: I couldn't do it there because it is their monastery.
52:02 MZ: What does that mean?

K: I was a guest there.
52:05 MZ: But could you not have followed whatever the programme was, but instead of doing it mechanically...
52:13 K: They got up at two o'clock in the morning, and prayers, prayers, until a certain time.
52:22 And I thought it was a nonsense, all those prayers.
52:30 So, I went there and sat with them but nothing happened. I kept quiet to myself. I was meditating in my own way and let them chant and carry on about Jesus.
52:45 It meant nothing to me.
52:49 MZ: Isn't that, in a way perhaps parallel, that there are some here who feel that, well, these people want to sit quietly every morning.
52:58 K: That is what I want to find out. I say let's talk about it.
53:08 SF: In other words, there is a difference between coming to the morning meeting mechanically, in which case that is a habit, or not doing it mechanically.
53:17 K: Yes, because you see the reason of it. You see intelligently that beginning a morning quietly gives an extraordinary feeling for the rest of the day.
53:33 Q: When you say quietly, do you mean through meditation or just physically sitting there?

K: Even physically sitting quietly.
53:45 K: Meditation, that goes into the whole question, when you are sitting quietly for five minutes, to watch your thoughts.
53:52 Just watch them. Not direct them, not change them, not say, that is a bad thought, good thought – just watch them.
53:59 Like a film that is going on in front of you, just watch it.
54:03 Q: Just physically sitting there doesn't mean that much to me because I could physically sit anywhere, but watching the thought would be different.
54:12 K: When you sit quietly, you can watch better – that is all. But if you are sitting quietly and looking out of the window, and fidgeting, etc., you are not watching your thoughts moving.
54:28 I won't go into much further, which is, whether the thoughts themselves become aware of their movement, not 'you' watch them – but that is a different matter.
54:37 We will discuss meditation on Tuesday morning, so we will go into that. Now, do we all see the reason of meeting together in the morning?
54:50 Meeting together, being together. It is the only occasion we are all together, isn't it?
55:02 To look at each other's face.
55:08 Q: No, I don't see the necessity in that.
55:12 K: For goodness sake, don't take a little detail and bang that on the head.
55:21 Do we see this?
55:28 Q: I don't see what we give to each other by being together.
55:34 K: Isn't it important to be together?
55:41 Here we are, all of us sitting together, isn't it important to be together?
55:50 Together, in the morning, for five or ten minutes, whatever time you have, to be together?
56:04 I have been to another monastery too, where they held hands for five minutes.
56:11 I got rather bored. It was rather sticky.
56:24 The idea behind all this, I am sure, is that we all sit together and be quiet together, look at things together.
56:35 Not you look at it and I look at it, but together we look at things.
56:42 Because together we have created this monstrous world. You follow? So, to change this, we have to do it together.
56:59 And that is what I feel is one of the reasons for morning meetings.
57:09 When you are together in the morning, during the day, you don't feel you are opposed to somebody.
57:18 It is much deeper than merely superficially coming together and sitting there, being bored and angry, etc., but together, sitting quietly, you begin to have a totally different kind of feeling about life.
57:51 So, if you don't want to come and if someone persuades you to come, then there is authority. Right?
58:12 So, because you are lazy, because you are disorderly, are you creating a dictator, an authority?
58:24 Find out. That is important. That is part of intelligence. If I keep my room in disorder, Mrs Zimbalist comes in, says, for goodness sake!
58:38 I have to put things away, why don't you do it yourself? I don't want to do it, and then I will call her authoritarian.
58:50 But if I keep my room in order then it is finished, there is no authority.
58:56 Q: But that could work, say, when you talk about Russia for example, if everyone just did what the Politburo wanted them to do there would be no authority.
59:05 What you are saying is that, for example, in Russia, if everyone just did what the Politburo wanted them to do.
59:11 K: Ah, no.
59:18 In the capitalist world, they have done what each person thinks they ought to do.
59:28 Then socialism came and the ultimate of that is the totalitarian state, which is to control man and make him live according to the pattern of some rulers – Marx, Lenin, Mao and so on.
59:50 Like the Church has done this before, the Roman Catholic Church – it is the same pattern, done differently.
59:58 Here, we are trying not to do that. We are saying, let's all be intelligent about everything, which means let's talk over together, if you don't see it, I will take time, trouble, point it out ten times. But please see it.
1:00:18 Please understand this. In that, there is no authority. And if you don't do it after, say, yes, I see it very clearly today, and tomorrow you do something contrary to what you have seen, then I come and say, look, please, do look at it.
1:00:40 Don't call me authoritarian because I remind you of it.
1:00:53 Q: It also gets back to this muddle about necessity, what needs to be done.
1:01:06 K: All right. Now, let's talk about responsibility. What do you mean by the word responsibility?
1:01:24 Your parents are responsible for you because they have brought you into the world, and because you are their daughter or son, they send you here, they feel responsible and they feel this kind of school will help you.
1:01:46 So they feel responsible: care, affection, to see that your mind works properly, that you are intelligent, academically, in other directions.
1:02:04 So they send you here, they are responsible, to respond correctly to you.
1:02:13 You understand? Responsibility surely comes from the word 'to respond', to respond correctly.
1:02:26 If a parent is conditioned, as they generally are, and they are responsible to that conditioning and make you conform to that conditioning.
1:02:41 They feel responsible. That is, they are responding according to their conditioning. Are you following? So, to respond correctly, truly, accurately.
1:03:01 If I have no conditioning – please listen, this is very interesting – if I have no conditioning, how do I respond correctly to you?
1:03:13 You understand my question? You come here conditioned, aren't you?
1:03:24 Yes? Now, you will respond or react according to that conditioning.
1:03:33 That conditioning is either American, Russian, or whatever it is.
1:03:42 So each conditioning divides. Or rather, let's put it the other way. All conditioning is a divisive process.
1:03:56 Right? Is this becoming too difficult? You are conditioned as an American, suppose, and I am conditioned as a Hindu. I will respond to my conditioning, you will respond to yours. So, your conditioning and my conditioning divides you and me. So, all conditioning is a dividing process.
1:04:26 And all of us feel responsible according to our conditioning.
1:04:33 Now, if you are free from conditioning and I am free from it, what is our responsibility?
1:04:45 This is part of intelligence. We are awakening the intelligence. Listen to it carefully, this is very interesting. I have just thought of it.
1:04:58 Most of us respond according to our conditioning, and to carry out that response is our responsibility.
1:05:12 If I am your father, mother, and I am conditioned as a Catholic, Protestant, whatever it is, it is my responsibility to see that you become a Protestant, a Catholic, a communist, whatever it is.
1:05:26 Right?
1:05:28 Q: So we are conditioned to be able to respond to our conditioning.
1:05:31 K: Therefore, that conditioning is a dividing process. Therefore, there is conflict between us. Do you see this? Now, are you free from your conditioning? Work at it, don't say no and remain there, break it.
1:05:59 This is part of our intelligence, the awakening of this intelligence. When you and I are free from our background, what is our responsibility to each other?
1:06:17 Oh, come on.
1:06:27 Q: To try and mirror the other person's conditioning?
1:06:31 K: No, listen carefully. You are conditioned, aren't you? Be simple – yes or no – don't pretend. Obviously. Because you are conditioned, your responsibility is according to that background, in dealing with me or dealing with anybody else.
1:06:57 So, your responsibility is according to your conditioning.
1:07:06 And that conditioning is a dividing process.
1:07:13 Do you see that? Intelligently, because you have talked it over, we pointed it out reasonably and explained the consequences of conditioning – if you really see that, it is gone.
1:07:37 You are no longer Protestant, Catholic, this or that. Then you are a human being and what is then your responsibility about anything?
1:07:53 Oh, come on.
1:07:55 Q: If you follow the logic out, what you are saying logically, is that you have no responsibility.
1:08:01 K: On the contrary. I will show it to you in a minute. You have jumped to some conclusion.
1:08:10 Q: If there are two people who are not conditioned...
1:08:13 K: No, don't imagine, first see what takes place when you are conditioned.
1:08:21 Q: Your responsibility is limited if you are conditioned. Your responsibility is limited to your conditioning.
1:08:29 K: Yes. So, do you see the implications of such conditioning?
1:08:38 The implication, what is implied, what are the consequences of that conditioning.
1:08:48 Look, I am conditioned as a Catholic, or a communist. I believe in Jesus, he is the only son of God. Of course, that is a good exploiting thing for humanity. All right, leave all that. I believe in all that. Not only believe, that is my conditioning – I have been brought up in it. And you say, you don't believe in Jesus as the only son of God.
1:09:24 You are a Hindu, you say, look, we are all sons of God. That is the Hindu theory. So, what happens to you and me? We never meet, do we? We may shake hands when we eat at the same table, we may talk over together most pleasantly, but I am a Catholic you are a Hindu.
1:09:48 So it divides us, doesn't it? And where there is division, we will go into conflict. Inevitably. That is inevitable. Right? Do you see the truth of this?
1:10:09 And because it is dividing, we feel responsible for one thing.
1:10:16 For my sons, for my daughters. We don't feel responsible for the daughters.
1:10:28 I wonder if you see this. Personally, being here, I feel responsible for you.
1:10:41 I feel responsible that you should grow up tremendously intelligent.
1:10:46 Q: That responsibility doesn't come from your conditioning though.
1:10:49 K: No, that is what I am saying.
1:10:51 Q: You are suggesting that there are two kinds of responsibility, one from conditioning and one that comes from something else.
1:10:59 K: Yes, I wouldn't even call it responsibility, I would call it intelligence acting.
1:11:07 It doesn't matter, we will go into it.
1:11:16 We are responsible for 'my' daughter and 'my' son.
1:11:24 That is a very small, limited responsibility.
1:11:32 But intelligence says, you are responsible for everything and for everybody.
1:11:52 Love isn't just for my son and daughter, it is love. When there is love, which is intelligence, I love. I want to see that you are all right, that you grow up properly, that you have a good body, good mind, that you are intelligent, good taste, you appreciate beauty, not because you are my son or daughter.
1:12:30 So, are you responsible in that sense? Responsible, which means, generally as it is understood, responsible to the background, to the conditioning.
1:12:48 You are responsible to that and you act according to that conditioning.
1:12:56 Which becomes very small and very destructive.
1:13:09 So, we will come back. Do you feel responsible for coming together in the morning?
1:13:28 If you don't come in the morning and I feel responsible, not because I am conditioned, I am going to help you to see the beauty, the immense importance of starting a day quietly.
1:13:43 I am going to discuss with you, because I feel tremendously responsible for you to be intelligent.
1:13:56 Which means I don't persuade you, I don't coerce you, I don't say darling, I love you, so do it for my sake, all that blah, blah.
1:14:04 I say, look, we will discuss it intellectually, reasonably and go into it.
1:14:20 The responsibility of love is different from the responsibility of a conditioned mind.
1:14:31 The conditioned mind says, I love you darling, you are my daughter. I want you to grow up to be a doctor, or whatever it is.
1:14:44 It is not love at all. I am forcing you, making you conform to the pattern which I have got.
1:14:55 But if I have no pattern, then the intelligence says, please, look at it.
1:15:10 Are you doing this?
1:15:17 So, freedom means the emptying of your conditioning.
1:15:30 There is no freedom as long as there is conditioning. Obviously. You may be free within that conditioning. I am free to go to church, mass every morning. I am free, because I think I am free, but because I am conditioned to be a Catholic, I feel free to go to church.
1:16:00 That is not freedom.
1:16:07 Agree? See it? I won't use the word agree. So, there is no freedom for a man who is in prison. As long as we are conditioned, we are in prison. Actual prison. You may not feel walls of it but there are walls around us when we are conditioned.
1:16:33 You may improve the prison which you are in – have more toilets, more bathrooms, better central heating.
1:16:47 So, if you are conditioned and you are responding to that condition, you are not free.
1:16:57 This is reasoned. This is not a dogmatic statement. I explained it to you. There is only freedom when there is no conditioning.
1:17:20 SF: Would you then say that you respond directly to the thing, whatever you have contact with, instead of responding to your conditioning?
1:17:30 K: No, don't use the word 'directly' – that is a difficult word.
1:17:35 SF: I am trying to see what would be intelligent responsibility.
1:17:39 K: Become intelligent, first. Don't say, what will an intelligent man do? Then you are caught in a concept which you and I have created. That becomes our conditioning. But if you say, it is important. I see what conditioning does.
1:18:05 I see actually how it arose, because my grandmother, grandfathers, generations past, they said I was a Brahmin, I must do this, I must not do that, I must eat this way, I must think this way, and that is my conditioning, for centuries.
1:18:32 And I act according to that conditioning. I may have a modern education, I may become a scientist, but my deep, psychological conditioning is still there.
1:18:44 So I am a prisoner to that. I am that prison. So there is no freedom outside that. Do I see the actuality of this, the truth of it?
1:19:07 If I don't see it, I will say, why not? You are not thinking about it, you are becoming lazy, you are tired, it is lunch time and so on, so let's stop it.
1:19:17 We will begin again tomorrow, till you get bored with me.
1:19:28 If you get bored with me – I am not bored, you are bored – it means that you don't want to go into this, you don't want to think out, you don't want to become alive.
1:19:42 You woud rather be a dead human being. That is why you get bored.
1:19:58 It is an extraordinary thing when we have found out something which is really very interesting. Responsibility according to your conditioning and a mind that is really free from conditioning and therefore intelligent, that intelligence acts in a totally different way.
1:20:24 Love has no responsibility. I mean, that is an awful idea.
1:20:35 Then love says: duty. Then love says: it is your duty to fight for your country, kill people – then all that horror begins.
1:20:55 Love can only be when there is no conditioning. And that love acts. If you say, how does it act? I say, don't ask how it acts, begin, find out, do it yourself.
1:21:08 Then it becomes much more creative, alive. I think we better stop, don't you?
1:21:31 We are going to talk next Tuesday, the students and all together, about meditation.
1:21:42 Now, sit absolutely quiet, before we break up. Absolutely quiet.
1:21:52 See what happens. Please, listen two minutes and then I will stop talking. Keep your body very still, your eyeballs, absolutely without movement.
1:22:06 Don't force it, don't compel it, just watch. Watch the eyeballs moving – if you watch it, they become quiet and then your whole body relaxes.
1:22:23 Do this for two seconds, that is enough, or two minutes. See what happens.
1:23:43 All right. Did you notice something? In that quietness, there is no separation, you and I – did you notice that?
1:24:00 We will talk about it.