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BR77DSS2.8 - Can the brain be aware of its movement of accumulation?
Brockwood Park, UK - 30 October 1977
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.8



0:19 Questioner: Could we talk about having students in the staff meeting? The other day we were talking about having students in the staff meeting and that whole issue.
0:33 Krishnamurti: Some students representing, you, and be with the staff when they discuss things.
0:48 I think that can be arranged – we talked about it with Mrs Simmons and others.
0:55 It will come about, I am sure. Anyhow, we will talk about it. Is there anything else?
1:09 Q: Krishnaji, could we talk about love?
1:16 K: Can we talk about love? Anything else?
1:25 Q: Isolation.
1:27 K: Isolation. Good Lord. Anything else?
1:33 Q: Self-deception.

K: Self-deception. Love, isolation, self-deception, and you suggested some students will represent the whole body of students and be at the staff meeting.
1:55 You can talk it over with the staff and see what you can do.
2:02 Q: And can we talk about the two different...
2:14 K: The opposites.

Q: Yes.
2:16 K: C'est ça, mon capitaine.

Q: The opposites.
2:31 K: Love, self-deception...
2:38 Q: Isolation.
2:40 K: And the conflict between the opposites.
2:56 Could we discuss something first?
3:03 Perhaps all this will be included in that. What we were talking about at lunchtime – between two mouthfuls, which is not the right occasion – with Dr Bohm, about purity of order.
3:23 Q: Of order?

K: Order, complete order. The absolute order, whether it exists in the universe – and it obviously doesn't exist in human beings – and to be aware of this astonishing order and its purity and its depth in the universe, whether it is at all possible to observe that order when one is totally in disorder.
4:08 That is one of the points we were talking about yesterday. I thought you would like to hear about it too. You don't mind? Would you like to hear about it?
4:21 Q: Yes.
4:25 K: We willl go into the other questions later.
4:34 When one observes visually the whole universe, that is, the stars and the planets and the galaxy, and the order of the tide, the rising of the moon, setting – everything so astonishingly orderly.
5:00 Have you noticed it? And are we aware of that extraordinary and absolute order of purity?
5:14 Is it possible to be aware when one's own mind is so confused?
5:23 You understand the question? Is it possible to bring about that order within oneself and then both inwardly and outwardly see the purity of order, the absolute order?
5:48 One cannot observe this order in the universe if one is not, in oneself, completely and absolutely orderly.
6:03 One may attribute order to the universe, because you will see the moon rising, setting, the tide going in and out, the rising of the sun, setting of the sun – that is visual and perhaps, also, an intellectual concept of this order.
6:37 Is there order in ourselves, and if there is not that absolute order, how can one perceive the external order?
6:50 Right? Would that interest you, this question? Because we human beings are so disorderly, not only outwardly, but also inwardly.
7:12 All that is happening in the world, the terrorism, the totalitarian states and so on – outwardly you can see it all.
7:24 And can we equally, with clarity, see how disorderly we are inwardly?
7:36 If we do not see inwardly the total disorder in which we live, the outward disorder becomes merely visual, intellectual, theoretical.
7:56 You are following this? That is one of the things we talked about. Then the other thing was – it might be much more interesting, perhaps – do you remember the other day we talked about thought arising from registration?
8:22 The origin of thought comes from registration.
8:30 Registration being accumulation through experience, all kinds of knowledge stored up in the brain.
8:41 Like a computer, we are programmed by registering every form of experience, every form of incident and happenings.
8:57 That registration brings about, or rather, emphasises the beginning of the self, the 'me.
9:13 Is it somewhat clear? I will make it clear. I will try, rather. I have an incident, a happening, whether it is pleasant or unpleasant.
9:29 Immediately, there is a registration of that on the brain.
9:40 And if it is pleasurable, if it is nice, if it is beautiful, then the registration becomes strong.
9:56 That produces or brings about the emphasis, makes the self.
10:03 Right? You see that? Say for instance, I had a happy incident yesterday on the walk and that is registered, and then thought pursues that registration, being pleasant – and one of the factors of the self is the pursuit of pleasure.
10:34 You see how from registration the self is created? Then the self demands more registration to strengthen itself.
10:48 Do you see it?
10:56 I had a pleasant experience yesterday afternoon on the walk.
11:03 There was a pleasant experience. That is registered. Then thought says, I must pursue that pleasant experience.
11:18 Then that thought creates the 'me', pursuing that pleasure which has been registered.
11:26 Clear? Do you see this? If you don't, I will explain it ten different ways. Do you see this? Because it is very important to find this out, whether it is possible for the brain to register everything very, very lightly, even technological knowledge, even linguistic accumulation of words and so on – to register everything, especially in the technological sense, lightly.
12:09 So the brain is never under a pressure, so that there is no deformation – the brain is not deformed.
12:30 I wonder if this is too difficult. David Bohm: I think there is a step there which is difficult to follow. It is clear when you say that an experience is registered. Then you said, thought creates the 'me' which pursues that experience, and it doesn't seem to follow from registration that thought creates the 'me.

K: Ah, yes – quite.
12:53 K: Look, there is registration. Then what is the next step? Think it out. What is the next step? There is a pleasant experience which is registered. What takes place as soon as there is registration?
13:18 Go on.
13:22 Q: The 'me' interprets that registration in a certain way.
13:29 K: No, what takes place immediately after registration of a pleasant experience? Watch it, carefully. You must have had a pleasant experience yesterday, or an unpleasant experience. Some kind of happening. That is registered. Then what is the next movement?
13:54 Q: You label it as a pleasant experience.
13:59 K: You label that experience. You label it.
14:06 Which is what? Go into it, slowly. You have an experience. You label it. You call it by a name. The name is... go on.
14:23 Q: The name is a judgment – or it is good or it is bad.
14:30 K: No, a little more than that. Go into it, slowly.
14:33 Q: The name is relating it to which you know from before, the past.
14:42 You look back into your memory.

K: Which is what? Go on.
14:49 K: You go back to memory, you said – go on.
14:53 Q: Observation stops. You are relying on memory for seeing.
15:00 K: The word, the labelling has also been registered, hasn't it?
15:06 Q: It is comparison.

K: No, watch it.
15:09 K: There is a happening, registered, then you said, name it.
15:17 The very naming it is the reaction of a previous registration.
15:24 Right? Then go further. That means what? Previous registration from which you name.
15:40 Shakuntala Narayan: It is thought and memory, isn't it?
15:43 K: So, what happens? Go on, investigate it, don't just say thought and memory. Find out what goes on.
15:53 It is very important for you to learn this because you may live a totally different kind of life in which there is affection, love and all the rest of it – not conflict, confusion, disorder – if you really learn about this.
16:12 I am not telling you and you memorise it but you yourself discover it.
16:20 You yourself find out what happens when you register, what goes on, the whole of it.
16:29 You understand? If you learn for yourself then you will find out what is necessary to register and also, if you register, what is necessary to register very, very, very lightly, not make it heavy.
16:57 There is a registration of a happy incident, you name it, the naming of it is another previous registration.
17:08 From that, what goes on?
17:11 Q: Depending on what name you have given it...
17:13 K: That is a name, it doesn't matter, good, bad, lovely, beautiful, ugly, evil, any name is a previous registration or previous remembrance.
17:24 Q: Then you tell yourself you either want more of it or not.
17:27 K: So, what takes place?

Q: It strengthens the memory of it and the registration goes deeper.

K: What takes place?
17:41 K: Are you guessing or actually seeing what is happening?
17:50 If you are guessing, if you are merely intellectually saying, it must, there is no value. But if you say what actually takes place, then we will help each other. Your theory is as good as my theory.
18:11 So the brain is always operating – operating in registering.
18:25 Right? Oh, come on. Registration may have been in the past, or the present happening, recognised from the past, and so taken to the past – this process is going on all the time, isn't it?
18:47 No?
18:48 Q: But the past is the 'me', isn't it?
18:50 K: I am coming to that. First see what takes place. You refuse to see what is going on actually, inwardly – how the brain is acting.
19:03 Registration of the present happening, the recognition of that, which is another form of registration.
19:16 So, it is always operating by registering.
19:25 When you do that – either that which is pleasurable or that which is not pleasurable, what takes place?
19:44 You understand my question? When the brain is always operating by registering, and every registration strengthens registration, and every registration is put together as the 'me', isn't it?
20:14 No?
20:24 Q: I wouldn't agree with that.
20:28 K: You wouldn't agree with that. I am not saying I am right. You understand? Don't say agree or disagree. Let's find out. I may be wrong. Find out. Don't theorise.
20:45 Q: I am asking a question, now. As far as I have understood, the 'me' is something that is working with registration, the centre to which registration is connected.
21:14 K: Are you saying, through registration a centre is formed?
21:23 Q: Can be.

K: Keep it simple. Is that what you are saying?
21:29 Q: There could be.

K: Watch it. Not could be.
21:32 K: Watch it, sir.
21:40 By registering a happening and calling it pleasurable, you have created a centre, haven't you?
21:50 Q: By calling it pleasurable, yes.
21:53 K: A centre of pleasure.
21:55 Q: Yes. Right.
21:58 K: And then, if it is not pleasant, that also forms a centre.
22:07 Right? Follow this carefully. The registration, the naming of it, therefore making a centre always.
22:19 Right? Wait. Go slowly into it.
22:32 That centre is the 'me'. No? Because that centre comes about through registration, the naming, and strengthening the pursuit or the avoidance of pleasure or pain.
22:58 DB: Why is the centre called the 'me'?
23:03 K: It is centre.
23:04 DB: But why doesn't it remain just a centre?
23:08 K: I won't even call it the 'me' yet.
23:10 DB: Just the centre.
23:12 K: I just want to see. It is a centre. Right? See what happens. The brain has formed a centre.
23:27 Q: I don't understand. Why does it form a centre?
23:31 K: Why does it form a centre? Yesterday, there was a happy incident. That is registered. It is named from a previous registering.
23:50 There is recognition. So, this constant recognition is a centre.
24:04 You don't see it?

Q: No.
24:06 Q: It seems there are two centres in the brain, and it isn't sure what is good or what is bad.
24:14 K: What is happening when you say 'good' and 'bad'? When the brain is operating by registering good and avoiding pain – what happens?
24:27 Q: Comparison.
24:29 K: Not comparison, no. What has taken place before comparison?
24:37 Q: Memory.

Q: Choice.
24:41 Q: There is something which is making the judgment.
24:46 K: Which is what?
24:48 Q: The 'me'.

K: No, don't use the 'me' yet. I want to avoid that word for the moment.
24:56 Q: But it is a centre.
24:59 K: In the brain there is always, through registration and the naming, etc., constantly is forming a centre, surely, from which you are acting, from which there is action.
25:15 DB: It is not clear that it is necessary that a name should form a centre.
25:19 K: It is not clear the naming or the registration should form a centre.
25:26 DB: Yes.

K: Right?
25:29 K: Did you hear what Dr Bohm said? Let's first see how we answer that question.
25:41 It is not clear, Dr Bohm says, how this centre is formed.
25:53 He is asking you – reply. What do you say to it? Scott Forbes: Isn't it inevitable that you have a centre? If you say an experience is good, it is good for whom or it is good for what? It is automatically good for that centre, that interpreter.
26:12 Q: No, I think when you have an experience that is pleasant and you have another experience that is pleasant, the common factor of the two experiences is the pleasantness.
26:21 So if you have several experiences that are pleasant then the common factor of all those is the pleasure, so that is the centre.
26:30 K: That is all. Got it?
26:40 Q: I don't see how pleasure...

K: Wait, listen to it first.
26:42 K: Listen to it before you agree or disagree, or say, I don't understand – find out.
26:50 Q: I find pleasure in gardening and I find pleasure in driving a car. The only thing that can be in common with those two things is the pleasure which I get out of it.
27:01 K: So the centre, he says, is the pleasure.
27:07 Q: It is the general concept?
27:09 K: No. Pleasure. Not general concept.
27:15 Q: That is what I mean – the general concept of pleasure narrows it.
27:22 Q: It is not even theoretical, this centre, because there is a pleasure centre in the brain.
27:30 You can accumulate many things and make this pleasure centre very strong.
27:35 K: Don't even call it 'centre', Let's move away from 'centre'.
27:45 I will repeat it again. Yesterday, there was an incident which has been registered, and you named it as pleasure.
28:00 See it – not intellectually, but actually see it. Then, day after day, there is that pleasure, layer after layer of pleasure and the layer of fear.
28:20 These layers, one after the other, what happens then?
28:35 Your consciousness is filled with these layers. Avoid the centre, avoid the 'me', your consciousness is filled with layer after layer of pleasure, fear, pain, sorrow, layer after layer.
28:58 Q: But what does that mean? Avoiding registration?
29:01 K: No.
29:09 A snake has bitten me. It has bitten, there is registration of pain.
29:20 There are different forms of pain. Which is, he has hurt me. So, the brain is registering. So there is registration, layer after layer after layer of pleasure, layer after layer of fear, or layer after layer of incidents, which is our consciousness.
29:49 Right? Don't agree with me – see it.
30:06 All this consciousness – layer after layer – we call the centre or the 'me'.
30:18 Right? You may call it 'X', and if we are understand that we mean the same thing, I will accept 'X' instead of 'me', or the centre.
30:32 Clear? But we must both recognise the thing by a common word.
30:44 You can't call this a giraffe. We know by the common word that is a microphone.
30:53 So we say, the accumulation of these layers which are formed through registration, our consciousness is filled with that.
31:16 For convenience, we say a centre or the 'me'.
31:23 So the common factor for all humanity is the layers.
31:36 So, we are asking, consciousness is strengthened, the centre or the 'me' is strengthened by constant accumulation of these layers.
31:57 Is that all right? Is that clear now?
32:03 Q: Is it actually registration that we are talking about as forming the 'me', or something that happens after registration?
32:09 K: After – obviously. The 'me' doesn't exist before the registration.
32:19 Q: It is the impetus of the layers that are already in existence? The impetus of the layers which have already been built up, take one on, as it were, to capture each registration.
32:38 K: I can't hear – sorry.
32:47 If you have heard it, please repeat it.
32:51 SN: He says, the impetus of the layers of consciousness, is that what forms the registration?
33:00 Saral Bohm: No, the impetus of the layers of registration captures the next registration.
33:08 K: The brain is like a tape. On that there is constant registering going on. And this constant registration of pleasure, pain, fear, suffering, anxiety and so on, is our consciousness.
33:34 And instead of using such a big word as 'consciousness' with all the implications of it, we say the centre or the 'me'.
33:43 I think that is clear now. Is that right, sir?
33:48 DB: I think he asked, whether all of this which now has been accumulated, becomes the impetus for the next step.
33:55 K: Of course. It is very clear, this. The pleasure principle has been registered. And the impulse, the energy for more – thickening the layer – is the impetus in all our consciousness.
34:25 No? Right? No, not clear?
34:34 DB: Why should there be an impetus? That would be the next question.
34:39 K: She doesn't understand.

Q: What is an impetus?
34:43 DB: It is an impulse to move something. You have an impulse to do something.
34:48 K: I have an impulse to go out, there is an urge to go out.
34:55 That is called 'impetus', to move forward. So Dr Bohm says, what is the cause of this impetus, this urge to go?
35:08 What is it? Go on.
35:19 Q: But the more concentrated the pleasure centre is, the more the urge to expand it becomes...
35:24 K: Of course, it is that simple. Isn't it?
35:44 K: Look, Shankar. Look at it. The pleasure principle has been established through constant registration of that incident, of a happy incident.
36:02 Then thought arises and pursues it. Right? The impulse is to have more, more, more.
36:18 Or the impulse is to avoid, avoid, avoid, run away. Frightened, grief, anxiety – all these are the urges, the impetus, the energy to either get rid or have more.
36:40 That is our consciousness. From there you act. Right, sir? So, we are asking something which perhaps requires much greater observation, greater penetration, greater insight, which is, one sees the necessity of registering.
37:11 How to ride a bicycle, speak a foreign language, or your own language, or drive a car, and so on.
37:26 That is registered, isn't it? Then why should any other form of registration take place at all?
37:40 The principle of pleasure being pursued.
37:45 Q: But where does this principle arise? Because it is very easy to see, if I am physically hurt by a thorn or something then naturally I avoid it, there is the pain...
37:58 K: The same principle applies.
38:05 There is a ditch if you walk along there. If you walk too fast and not observe you might trip and fall down. So that is registered. Be careful when you walk in that spinney – right? That is perfectly right and necessary. Why should there be any other form of registration? Wait, let's make it much simpler. Yesterday, there was a pleasant happening. Why should the brain register that? It has happened, finished. Why should it accumulate the layers?
39:01 It is very interesting, go into it. Why should it?
39:11 Q: Krishnaji, we have got a habit of doing it now. The trouble is, we have a habit of accumulation now.
39:17 K: Is it habit or is it the instinct of self-preservation, biological, physical preservation, which has trickled over into psychological preservation?
39:37 You follow what I am saying? Listen, I am just asking a question.
39:47 There is a spot there which I have to be very careful of when I walk – careful, you know, not very, but careful.
39:57 That has to be registered, hasn't it, otherwise when I walk carelessly I may twist my ankle.
40:05 So, that has been registered. That is self-preservation, to avoid pain, to avoid unnecessary trouble for others, and so on.
40:16 Right? That has to be registered. The animals do register. Every day I have taken Whisper out for a walk, it has been registered. Also in the animal there is the fear of not obeying – it might get slapped.
40:40 So all those are registered. And we human beings do the same thing but that habit, that registration we think is necessary psychologically.
41:00 It may have trickled over into the psyche.
41:07 It might have moved from the physical to the psychological.
41:14 And then we say, yes, I must register. The next question is: why is there registration at all? Apart from... Why is there? Why does the brain demand registration?
41:35 Why has the brain become like a tape?
41:45 Tell me. Why? Investigate, find out.
41:57 Q: The moment you start labelling registration as good and bad or pleasure-giving and painful, then you start using the brain...
42:08 K: No, not you. The brain is doing this.
42:11 Q: OK, the brain begins to try and reproduce these...
42:15 K: Why? No, Shankar, don't give it up. Go into it, you will see it so simply. Why is the brain registering? It sees logically, sanely, that certain things have to be registered.
42:42 Why has that movement of registration spilled over into the psyche?
42:54 Q: What is the psyche?
42:59 K: Into the psychological world, into the world of – what?
43:05 Q: But isn't that the same?

K: No, don't theorise.
43:09 Q: No, I didn't theorise, really. Is not the creation of the 'me' or the centre, isn't that the psyche?
43:28 I don't know how to put it.
43:31 K: Say it in German – somebody will translate and tell me. Mrs Porter.
43:37 Q: That would be difficult as well.
43:48 K: First see what we are asking. The brain registers certain things which are necessary. It says, I must learn how to drive a car. It is necessary, so it registers. The brain is operating all the time. There is no 'I' operating, the brain is operating.
44:15 The brain is operating – it says certain things are necessary for survival.
44:25 Has that instinct for survival physically, moved over into the field which is inside, the psyche, the psychological field, the hidden instincts?
44:49 Q: What is not clear to me is, you are talking about psyche as if it is something that exists.
45:01 That is, something that exists different from registration.
45:06 K: Wait. Isn't it? I see what you are asking. You are saying, why do you divide the psyche, the inside, from the outside?
45:17 Is that it?

Q: Yes.
45:20 K: I haven't. Why have you divided it? Find out. No, find out, don't pile up words. Why have you divided the outer and the inner?
45:48 Goodness, how difficult it is to keep you to fact, not to theorise, not jump to words, not jump to conclusions.
45:54 Q: But that is what our training is. In class and such we have to theorise.
46:02 K: I am asking you now, please don't.
46:10 Go into it.
46:13 Q: I register things in my psyche because I want to do it.
46:18 K: Don't use the word 'I', for the moment. There is registration, and the piling of registration.
46:32 There is registration of how to drive a car. It becomes almost automatic after a while.
46:41 Q: But you are asking why...

K: Keep to that.
46:44 K: I am sticking to one thing. It has to be registered.
46:52 Because if the car has to be driven, there must be learning of how to drive properly.
46:59 Otherwise, if you get into the car and drive you might kill yourself or kill others. So, that learning, driving a car, is a kind of self-preservation. Right? Physical survival. Now, I am asking why that movement – which is physical survival – moved into the other field?
47:28 Q: Is it because it thought it was so successful in one that it could repeat in the other?

K: That means what?
47:34 Q: And that more safety...
47:38 K: So, it says there is safety here in accumulation, and so it says, there may be...
47:47 and the maybe has become the certainty.
47:55 The certainty that by accumulating pleasure, layers, or avoiding layers, there can be survival.
48:09 The brain, by registering that – that being, driving a car for physical survival – has moved into a field where it is looking for survival.
48:29 And the survival is the accumulation of pleasure and the avoidance of pain.
48:38 Right? I think this is clear. No? No, don't agree. Inside, see it for yourself.
48:50 Q: Does the survival then change into continuance?
48:53 K: Survival. So it says there is survival in a belief, there is survival in ideas, there is survival in knowledge, as there is survival in the physical sense, when driving a car.
49:18 So, survival implies to the brain a continuity of what it has known.
49:29 Right? What it has known. Anything it doesn't know, it gets frightened. Death it doesn't know – a horror.
49:52 Follow this step by step. Registration, for physical survival is necessary, and from that the brain may have got into the illusion that survival implies continuity of these layers – avoidance of pain, fear, but the other.
50:26 Q: Sometimes when there is a tremendous amount of pressure then a certain balance in the psyche is upset.
50:37 K: Go on, follow it. What happens? When there is the pressure of pursuing pleasure or avoiding pain, the pressure of it.
50:49 There is the formation – what is the word?
50:54 Q: Deformation.
50:57 K: There is deformation, isn't there? Do you see this?
51:05 DB: Are you saying now that when we have such intense pressure, the brain is in some sense twisted or damaged physically?
51:12 K: That is it. They haven't heard it. Please, louder.
51:15 DB: When the brain is under great pressure then there is actual physical damage or twisting or bending, so that it is no longer right.
51:31 It is unhealthy.
51:33 K: If brain is under pressure of tremendous authority – the totalitarian mind – is already a damaged mind, because its instinct is to move, break, open, but you have now said, no, you must obey.
51:56 The Catholics, etc., the totalitarian people say, obey, obey, so it is under a pressure all the time.
52:05 So when there is pressure there is deformation, there is damage.
52:13 Right? When the brain is damaged, deformed, your actions are deformed.
52:24 Q: Our brains are under pressure from all the layers.
52:27 K: Of course it is, that is why you are all in conflict.
52:36 Q: Dr Bohm said that the brain is actually physically deformed.
52:40 K: Obviously. It is like, he said at lunch yesterday, a plastic, if you press it very hard and push it, it remains that way.
52:55 But a thing that has got life, living, you can bend it, it comes back to originality.
53:03 Q: I am sorry, I didn't hear that.
53:07 K: Oh, Lordy.
53:14 Anything that is free, that has no pressure, can be bent.
53:23 But it comes back to its original state. Right? But a brain that is under tremendous pressure, like accumulating, accumulating, etc., it is obviously under pressure.
53:42 Therefore, that pressure brings about distortion, brings about damage.
53:50 And the brain that is damaged cannot return to its original pliability.
54:01 SF: Aren't we also implying, just by the fact that we are talking here, that if we remove that pressure, if we stop registering, then our mind will go back to its original form.
54:13 K: No, register only that which is necessary. Then what happens? What happens to a brain – this is very interesting – what happens to a brain when there is no pressure of any kind?
54:31 Q: It is free.
54:34 K: No, what takes place?
54:38 Q: But at this stage, it is a bit hypothetical, isn't it?
54:41 K: Absolutely. I won't go into it. This is very interesting. Not hypothetical, not guess work, not theory. What actually happens when you see, for purely physical survival you have to learn about driving a car?
55:16 Do you see that? See in the sense, not verbally or visually, but actually have observed this fact.
55:28 Of course, this is simple. Now, can you also in the same way observe the danger – the danger – of the accumulation of layers and therefore pressure, therefore distortion, damage, deformed, and all action taking place from this deformity, from this distortion?
56:08 If you see that completely – in the sense, not intellectually but actually – see the danger of it, the very seeing of the danger, the brain will act.
56:32 The brain says, I see the danger therefore I won't accumulate.
56:39 The brain itself says, no.
56:42 Q: Maybe it is already damaged and cannot see.
56:44 K: No – that is the next question, wait. It is frightfully interesting if you go into it. I am sorry, I am a little excited. I want to go on.
57:03 For physical survival, driving a car is necessary. If you want to drive a car, or cycle. Even for walking you have to be very careful when traffic is going by. So the brain says, I agree to that. I see the necessity of it.
57:24 And if the brain sees the danger – the actual danger for survival – that this accumulation of layers is distorting the brain, deforming it, and damaging it it says, I won't do it, naturally.
57:52 Q: Isn't there danger if it becomes another focus of pleasure?
58:00 K: No. I said very carefully: any accumulation.
58:14 If it says, I won't accumulate now, because the other way I might have more pleasure, then it pursues that pleasure, then that becomes a deformity.
58:31 So, do you see the infinite danger of accumulation?
58:43 Of these layers.
58:50 Can the brain – please listen – can the brain be aware of itself?
58:59 The brain, in the sense, its movement. Its movement being the accumulation of layers, thinking or caught in the illusion that that way it will survive better.
59:15 You follow? Can the brain be aware of that movement?
59:22 Q: Does the body have to be still for the brain to see this?
59:28 K: No. Forget the body. You are sitting there.
59:32 Q: But can I see it when I am working, in motion?
59:35 K: No, listen to what I am saying first. I am asking, can the brain, your brain, see the movement of accumulation of layers?
59:54 Can it be aware of that movement, or are you imposing another desire upon it, which is a distortion?
1:00:08 Listen. Have you got it?
1:00:11 Q: No, because the brain is under pressure and therefore distorted already. Can the distorted brain see?

K: I am coming to that.
1:00:20 K: Can you see the distortion? Can the brain feel the distortion? Can the brain feel the pressure? Can the brain feel the layer, one layer of itself?
1:00:41 Layer in the sense, the accumulation of pleasure, the avoidance of pain – these two principles – avoidance of pain with all its complications and accumulating the layers of pleasure.
1:01:02 Can the brain see this movement? Of course, it can. The body hasn't got to be still, you can see it. When you are walking, you can watch it. There is a rather nice story of a guru with his disciples.
1:01:27 And the guru had a pet cat, a lovely, beautiful cat, and he was his favourite.
1:01:34 So before he sat down to meditate with all his disciples, the cat used to come sit on his lap, which was nice and warm, and began to purr.
1:01:43 So one day the guru dies, and so they bury him or whatever they do with the gurus, and they said, to meditate you must have that cat in the room sitting on somebody's lap.
1:02:02 You understand? Do you see this? So don't say, my body must be still – just watch it.
1:02:22 Q: These two legs brings security.
1:02:29 K: We said, there is physical security when you have to drive a car.
1:02:36 If you don't know how to drive a car and you have to drive a car, it is necessary to drive a car, then you have to learn how to drive it, because if you didn't learn and just drove off, you would kill yourself or kill others.
1:02:51 Therefore for physical survival it is necessary to learn how to drive.
1:02:58 That physical survival is one of the factors of the brain. Because it says, if I get killed, I am finished. Right? So it may say the same thing, it may say, the accumulation of the layers of pleasure, in that, the brain says, there may be security.
1:03:24 Right? So, why does the brain register at all?
1:03:33 There it registers in driving a car because it is physical survival. So does it say, there must be registration of pleasure, fear, grief, sorrow, hurts?
1:03:53 Will all these give survival?
1:04:04 Go on, answer it. Apparently it doesn't, does it? Because we are constantly in battle, constantly under pressure.
1:04:17 No? So, we are asking a further question, a brain that is distorted, that is deformed, that is damaged, by this constant universal conditioning.
1:04:41 Right?
1:04:49 Can the past conditioning, which is the accumulation, be dispensed with?
1:04:57 Can all those layers vanish, wither away?
1:05:05 It will completely – please, listen – it will completely when there is the perception that in all these accumulations there is no survival at all, there is no security at all.
1:05:28 If the brain sees this, it will naturally drop all of it.
1:05:36 The factor is, what will make it see?
1:05:42 DB: I think that comes to self-deception, that this distorted brain deceives itself and does not want to see.
1:05:49 K: Yes, the brain may want to deceive itself. Why does it support all this?
1:05:58 Q: We just saw that the psychological pressure can create a physical deformity, so the way we deal with physical pressure...
1:06:14 K: Can deform the other. So it operates both ways. Your brain is damaged. I know you don't like to think about it. All our brains are damaged, distorted, deformed, because we live under pressure, ambition, competition, imitation, conformity, follow the ideal, believe – all these are tremendous pressures by human beings, and we have supplied these beliefs, etc.
1:07:01 The brain has been caught in an illusion and so has damaged itself.
1:07:12 And the question is: is it possible for the brain, which is damaged, distorted, deformed, to be free of all that?
1:07:26 We say it will, it can, it must, when it sees the danger of it.
1:07:34 And it won't see it because it says, this is my habit, it is my conditioning, I don't know the other, therefore I must stick to this.
1:07:49 The known is more welcome than the unknown.
1:07:57 Do you see that? Do you? The brain that is damaged says, I only know myself as damaged. I don't know what it is to be completely healthy. Listen to what the brain does: Tell me what that perfect health is, then I will follow it.
1:08:21 You understand?

Q: Yes.
1:08:23 K: Then I will believe it, then I will work for it – which it is under another pressure.
1:08:32 You understand? So we are saying, see the danger of pressure.
1:08:42 Let the brain see itself under pressure, see all the implications of living under pressure and when it realises the danger of it...
1:08:56 Now, what will make you realise the danger? Hitting you on the head?
1:09:10 Inquire into it. Hitting you on the head? They have tried that.
1:09:24 You may laugh, they have tried it. Beat you up, so as to realise what you are, what is happening. Which is a form of Zen meditation. They don't actually hit on the head – they may – but beat you, when you are meditating, if you are rather sleepy they come and bang you with a stick.
1:09:56 So what will make you realise the immense danger of it?
1:10:09 Q: Would experience?
1:10:12 K: See what happens! No, listen carefully! The moment you have used the word 'experience', that means you have registered it!

Q: Yes, I know.
1:10:23 K: Therefore, another form of pressure! If you see this – you don't – you will never use the word 'experience' again.
1:10:33 Q: No, but if the brain goes through experience and then realises how distorting it is.
1:10:40 K: Look, we have said it all morning, for an hour.
1:10:42 Q: Yes I know. My question is: does the brain have to experience distortion to see?
1:10:48 K: No, watch it. The brain itself – how shall we say this?
1:10:57 Wait a minute, make it very simple. You think, don't you? Can thought be aware of itself?
1:11:14 How it arises? It arises from registration – for the moment we will stick to that – registered an incident which was pleasurable.
1:11:30 From that registration, thought comes and pursues it.
1:11:38 Can thought see itself in this movement? Not say, I see it. You understand my question? Can you? Will you? Your thought. Can thought be aware of itself?
1:12:03 Shankar, don't go off to something else, answer my question.
1:12:16 You can't, because you have never even thought about it.
1:12:23 We are asking, can the brain be aware of its movement of accumulation?
1:12:35 So we are asking, what will make you see, observe, be aware of the movement of accumulation, which is a tremendous danger for its own survival, happy survival.
1:12:54 What will make you see? Gurus? Gurus who tell you, do this, this, and this and you will have... So, gurus out. Out means completely out. That means no authority, yours or mine.
1:13:20 Or my experience and knowledge that says, I know – which is blah.
1:13:27 So, no authority. Then if gurus won't do, will more suffering?
1:13:36 Follow this: more suffering, more pain, more fears, more uncertainty, more confusion – will all that help you?
1:13:53 All right, gurus won't, more experience won't – experience: more pain, more sorrow, more violence.
1:14:09 None of these will. Then what will help you? What will help the brain to see the danger of its accumulation? In which it has said there is security, and verbally says, I see this.
1:14:30 Logically, I see this – but actually, it hasn't.
1:14:37 So what will do it? Sitting quietly? Closing your eyes and going into a kind of woolly dream? Come on.
1:14:54 All right. They have tried beating people up, there is a certain sect of people in India, tantra, which says sex will help you, worship God will help you – they have tried everything through pressure.
1:15:15 You understand? Through more pressure. This is a fact, historical fact.
1:15:32 So what will you do?
1:15:43 Capture the beauty and the weight of it.
1:15:53 Q: We can't do anything about it through...
1:15:56 K: Wait. Stop. You have said something. By adding more, you are going to distort it. You said, I, the centre, the 'me', the accumulation, can't do anything.
1:16:14 Is that a fact for you? No. Be careful. Don't use words unless it is an actual, real thing.
1:16:25 Is that a fact to you?
1:16:33 Listen carefully. The brain cannot be aware of itself under any pressure from outside.
1:16:48 Right? Or stimulated pressure. You understand? Outward pressure or inward determination, will, etc.
1:17:05 Do you see that? Inward pressure or outward pressure will not bring about the ending of accumulation, which is a danger.
1:17:21 Do you see that? Actually with your heart, with your blood, with your eyes, with your nerves, everything that you have, say, by Jove, I see this.
1:17:32 Nothing from outside or inside will alter the damage, the accumulation.
1:17:42 So, what happens? Oh, come on! Then what happens?
1:17:57 Do you see, by hearing logically you see – logically, reasonably – thought says, yes, you are perfectly right, from outside pressure I can't do it, there is no ending of the damage, or thought saying, if I determine, if I say I must, I must not, all that is also a pressure, then what happens?
1:18:28 Actually see what happens.
1:18:47 What happens when you have no pressure from outside or inside?
1:18:56 The damage is over. Distortion is finished. Right? Now, what will make you see this? More words, more action, more determination, more kicking, more violence, more wars?
1:19:27 Q: It seems to me that the strongest pressure is seeking pleasure.
1:19:35 K: Yes, seeking pleasure. Can the brain – listen carefully – can the brain, your brain see the accumulation of pleasure?
1:19:49 One accumulation is enough, because when once you accumulate one, the movement of more comes in.
1:20:00 Can the brain see one registration of pleasure and the danger of it?
1:20:12 It is very difficult for young people because – etc. I don't have to go into that.
1:20:20 Sexual pleasure, talking to people or comparing yourself with somebody who is more beautiful – vanity.
1:20:31 'All is vanity', said this preacher.
1:20:43 So if there is no pressure of any kind, the brain comes back to its original purity, original springiness.
1:20:58 You can bend it, push it, but it will always come back because it sees the tremendous futility of accumulation.
1:21:15 Phew! I haven't finished this.
1:21:22 By listening, it will become a theory to you and you will say, how can I get it? – you are back into the old game. But for a man who is investigating, going into it, not under any pressure.
1:21:38 Not because he says, I want to find more, then that becomes another layer, but just observing, then what happens to the brain that is completely free from all pressure?
1:21:59 Which means from all the wasted energy of pressure.
1:22:06 Because the moment you register, energy is needed. What happens to the brain that is not registering and therefore not accumulating – what happens to that energy?
1:22:32 Man has tried to find the super-energy. He knows the mechanical energy. The mechanical energy of friction he knows very well. That gets rather tiresome, he sees that habit, mechanical, friction – he sees all that, and so he has sought this extraordinary energy which has no pressure.
1:23:04 He says, I will get it through meditation, I will get it through various forms of awakening certain centres.
1:23:18 They are all under pressure of a reward, or under the pressure of avoiding.
1:23:30 So if you have no pressure, what happens to that extraordinary energy which has been wasted through registration?
1:23:43 You will not find that unless you see the total danger of registration.
1:24:15 I don't know if you heard that story – if some of you have heard it in the past, please forgive me – the story of a guru who was a fairly decent man.
1:24:35 Every morning, he was in the habit of talking to his disciples, making a sermon.
1:24:42 One morning, he gets on the rostrum and he was just about to begin when a bird comes, and sits on the windowsill and begins to sing, beautifully.
1:24:57 And the singing is so marvellous, they listen. And after singing, the bird flies away, and the guru says, 'For this morning the sermon is over.'
1:25:14 Isn't that nice? All right.