Krishnamurti_EN

Krishnamurti Subtitles

Can One Learn Through Relationship?

Brockwood Park - 31 August 1978

Public Discussion 2

0:44	K: What shall we talk about this
	morning, talk over together?

0:49	Q: May I please request
	you to say something

0:51	about the energy
	of consciousness?

0:55	The energies.

0:58	K: Would you
	talk over together

1:02	the energy that
	you talk about.

1:07	Q: I feel after Tuesday's
	discussion

1:11	that there is some confusion
	over the word 'observation'

1:14	in as much as what we
	generally call observation

1:18	is in fact commentary after
	the fact and not observation at all.

1:28	K: What do you mean
	by observation.

1:31	We generally
	observe after the event

1:35	and not observe
	as it is taking place

1:38	is that what you mean sir?
	Q: Yes.

1:41	K: Any other?

1:43	Madame?

1:46	Q: Could you speak
	about learning

1:48	and what is learning,
	what is relationship?

1:54	And can one learn about
	oneself through relationship?

2:00	K: Can one learn about oneself
	through self-observation.

2:09	Q: And relationship with others.

2:11	K: Can one learn through relationship
	with others about oneself.

2:19	That's what
	that is the question.

2:21	Q: Yes sir.

2:22	Q: Sir, could we talk
	about emptiness, please.

2:24	K: Just a minute.

2:25	Q: You have said that
	silence is the one fact.

2:28	I wonder if you could
	enlarge on that.

2:32	K: Silence is a fact and could
	we go into it, enlarge it

2:40	and see the depth of it,
	the meaning of it.

2:46	Q: Could you go into
	emptiness please?

2:49	K: Could we go over together

2:54	talk about that which you
	have said about emptiness.

3:03	Q: Can we continue the question
	of registration

3:06	whether one should
	register or not.

3:08	K: Oh.

3:10	The question of registration

3:12	whether one
	should register or not.

3:16	I wonder if you were
	here the other day, sir

3:20	I think we discussed
	it two days ago

3:22	or the day before and
	I hope you will not mind

3:24	if we don't go into it because
	we went into it pretty thoroughly.

3:30	Q; I wonder, could we talk
	about the energy of violence.

3:36	K: Talk about energy of violence.

3:41	Q: (In French)

3:54	K: Disorder.

3:55	Can one be aware of oneself

3:58	at the same time
	observe one's disorder?

4:02	Q: Can one be one
	with fear and so on

4:06	and at the same
	time observe it.

4:08	K: That's it sir.

4:10	Q: If we shouldn't discipline
	and shouldn't make an effort

4:14	but we should
	work on ourselves.

4:16	I don't understand
	not to discipline

4:19	and not to make the effort
	but still be working on ourselves.

4:24	Can you make that more clear?

4:26	K: Can you talk over together

4:34	about effort
	and discipline

4:37	and without effort
	can one observe oneself.

4:41	Now just a minute, please:
	we have had so many questions.

4:46	I don't know of whom you
	are asking these questions

4:52	because we are asking
	these questions of ourselves

4:56	and trying to find
	a solution, an answer.

5:02	So these are the questions:
	energy

5:08	can one learn about oneself
	through relationship

5:14	and also what do you
	mean by that word 'learn'

5:19	can one learn about oneself
	through relationship

5:27	and what do you
	mean by learning.

5:29	The other is, talk about
	emptiness, silence.

5:41	I think that is about all.
	Q: Violence.

5:45	K: And that lady points out can
	one observe oneself in action

5:56	and that lady put
	a question, which is

6:02	effort and discipline
	seem to go together

6:07	and you apparently point out
	a different way of observing, acting.

6:13	So which of these
	questions shall we take?

6:18	Q: The last question: you also
	point out that you must do it.

6:23	It seems like a contradiction.
	K: Contradiction.

6:27	You also say you must do it,
	that is, test it out.

6:32	Test it out, test out
	what is being said

6:36	in one's own life and
	not depend on somebody else.

6:42	Now which of these questions
	shall we talk about?

6:45	Q: Learning and relationship.
	(Laughter)

6:50	K: Learning and can one learn
	about oneself through relationship.

6:58	Now which of these questions would
	you like to talk over together?

7:03	Q: Energy.
	Q: Silence and emptiness.

7:07	Q: Silence and energy.

7:08	K: Silence, emptiness,
	relationship

7:12	all right, I think we
	can bring it all together

7:17	in talking over this question
	of what is learning

7:22	and can one learn about oneself
	in any kind of relationship

7:30	and perhaps if we could
	go into that rather deeply

7:33	we might be able to answer
	these several questions

7:37	about energy, silence,
	discipline and effort

7:43	and can one observe without
	any effort and discipline

7:51	and is it possible
	to be aware

7:53	at the same time when
	one is acting, conscious?

7:57	Right? And silence and so on.

7:59	Can we bring all this
	into this one question

8:04	which has been put:

8:07	what is learning and can
	one learn through relationship?

8:12	Can we go into that and bring
	all the other factors into it?

8:19	May we?
	Q: Yes.

8:21	K: All right.

8:24	What do we mean by learning?

8:29	I think this is a fairly
	important question

8:32	if we could go into it
	rather slowly and carefully.

8:36	We learn from books

8:40	we learn from parents, colleges,
	universities and so on

8:45	and also we learn
	through experience.

8:49	We learn through
	various forms of events

8:55	which all become
	knowledge. Right?

9:00	That is fairly clear:

9:02	that we gather information,
	experience

9:09	and various forms
	of events and incidents

9:14	that happen in our life

9:17	and from all these we
	accumulate knowledge

9:21	and from that
	knowledge we act.

9:26	Right? That is one
	way of learning.

9:31	Is there another way
	of learning at all?

9:37	That is what we are We know
	the ordinary way of learning.

9:42	Is there another
	way of learning?

9:45	Because the ordinary
	way of learning

9:47	the implications of learning
	in the ordinary way

9:51	is to accumulate
	knowledge and act

9:54	according to
	that knowledge

9:57	therefore that learning helps us
	to become more and more mechanical.

10:03	I don't know if you follow all this.
	May I go on with it?

10:07	This is not a talk by me.

10:11	We are sharing
	this thing together.

10:14	So, please, I can go into it
	but you will also have to join in

10:21	in the investigation of
	what we mean by learning.

10:27	So it is your responsibility too
	not just mine, talking about it.

10:35	The ordinary everyday
	form of learning

10:39	is to accumulate through experience,
	events and accidents

10:45	and so on, a great
	deal of knowledge

10:50	and that knowledge
	is always the past.

10:53	There is no future knowledge.

10:57	Right?

11:01	And if we act according
	to that knowledge

11:04	it must be action
	based on the past

11:11	based on knowledge

11:13	and that knowledge
	can be expanded infinitely

11:16	or to a certain extent,
	but it will always be limited

11:22	it will always become
	a routine, mechanical.

11:27	So we are asking if there
	is another way of learning.

11:35	Learning through
	accumulation of knowledge

11:40	and acting according to
	the accumulation of knowledge

11:46	you understand? - acting and
	acquiring knowledge from that action

11:53	or having acquired knowledge
	through various forms, act from that.

12:00	You follow?
	Do you understand?

12:05	Am I making myself clear?
	Q: Yes.

12:08	K: That is, I accumulate
	knowledge about science

12:15	about technology,
	doctors and so on, accumulate it.

12:20	And then from that
	accumulation I act.

12:24	Or act and through
	that action learn.

12:33	And having learnt a great
	deal through action

12:37	that also becomes knowledge.

12:40	So both are
	the same essentially:

12:46	acquire knowledge
	and then act

12:50	act and from that action accumulate,
	which becomes knowledge.

12:56	So essentially
	both are the same.

12:59	Both tend to become mechanical.

13:04	If this is clear then
	the question is:

13:09	is there a way of learning
	which is non-mechanistic?

13:16	I don't know if you are
	interested in all this.

13:23	To find that out we
	must be very clear

13:29	that the mechanistic activity
	of accumulated knowledge

13:35	and the whole movement of that,
	one must be very, very clear in oneself.

13:43	Can we proceed?

13:44	Please, as we are talking
	over together

13:49	find out how you learn

13:53	whether this learning is becoming
	more and more, more mechanistic.

13:59	You hear me, the speaker,
	read about it, listen to tapes, learn

14:06	accumulate knowledge
	and then say

14:09	'Well, I am going
	to practice that'

14:14	Therefore that practise
	becomes mechanistic.

14:20	Now we are asking:
	is there a different movement

14:25	which is not mechanistic?
	- which is also learning

14:30	but it is not accumulated
	knowledge and acting from that.

14:35	Right?

14:38	Is this clear?
	Q: Yes.

14:41	Q: Sir, part of that
	mechanistic process

14:44	might be an attempt
	to destroy the knowledge

14:48	that you have accumulated.

14:51	K: Yes, which is
	still mechanistic.

14:53	You try to get rid of that past
	knowledge which you accumulated

14:57	you say that is not
	the way to learn

14:58	so you learn in a different
	form but yet accumulate.

15:04	Q: Yes.

15:06	K: This accumulation process
	goes on all the time.

15:10	So we are asking, please:

15:13	is there a different way of learning
	which is not accumulative

15:18	which is not mechanistic,
	which is not

15:21	all the time functioning
	on the past movement.

15:26	Right? We are going
	to find that out.

15:29	Do please enquire, question

15:32	challenge all the rest of
	it for yourself and find out.

15:37	We said very clearly,
	action and then knowledge

15:44	knowledge and action are
	both essentially the same.

15:50	Now we are asking: is
	there a different learning?

15:55	Don't jump to conclusion

15:57	don't say spontaneity,
	don't say it is intuition.

16:03	Don't let's be caught in words.

16:08	Is there a way of learning
	which is not mechanistic?

16:16	Q: Does silence come into this?
	K: You see, you are jumping.

16:21	Don't come It is as
	though you don't know.

16:25	Q: Through suffering
	in relationship.

16:30	K: Wait, madame we
	are coming to that.

16:35	We are starting with,
	is there

16:39	a question mark,
	therefore you don't know.

16:43	So don't say it is silence,
	this or that.

16:47	You really don't know.

16:50	Say, that is
	the way to find out

16:56	with a clean slate, you don't know,
	so you are going to find out.

17:01	Are you quite sure
	you don't know?

17:06	Or you pretend you
	don't know? (Laughter)

17:11	No, please, for oneself, I am
	talking of oneself seriously.

17:17	Do I pretend
	that I don't know

17:19	or I actually don't know
	a way of learning

17:27	perhaps learning then
	has a different meaning

17:30	a way of learning which is
	not mechanistic, I don't know.

17:36	I have to be terribly honest
	to myself then I can find out.

17:42	But if I say, 'Yes, I don't know,
	but I have a few ideas

17:45	about it, behind me',
	then you are not enquiring at all.

17:53	So can we start honestly by
	saying I really don't know?

18:02	Which is rather difficult

18:05	because when you don't
	know you are looking

18:10	you are trying
	to find out if you know.

18:15	You understand my question?

18:17	When you say I don't know

18:19	but there is always
	the desire to find out

18:23	or expect to be told

18:26	or project some hidden hope
	and that becomes an idea

18:34	and say, 'Yes,
	I begin to capture it'

18:37	So if you can be free
	of all that and say

18:42	'I actually do not know',
	then you are curious

18:47	you are really curious,
	like a young boy

18:50	or a girl learning
	for the first time.

18:55	You have got it? No, no,
	see what has happened.

19:03	Do watch yourself sir,
	don't look at me or anyone

19:07	watch yourself,
	which is, when you say

19:09	'I really don't know',
	what has taken place?

19:16	Your mind is not actively
	thinking out how to find out.

19:26	Right?

19:30	Are we meeting each
	other in this point?

19:36	Say for instance,
	I really don't know

19:42	which means I have
	no hope of finding it

19:47	I have no conclusion,
	I have no motive.

19:54	This is very important,
	when I say I don't know

19:58	in that is implied having
	no motive whatsoever.

20:04	Because motive
	then gives a direction

20:07	and then I have lost it.

20:10	So I must be very, very clear

20:14	and terribly honest in myself
	to say, I really don't know.

20:22	Wait sir,
	listen to it carefully.

20:24	I really don't know, then what
	has taken place in my mind?

20:33	Q: Nothing.

20:35	K: Find out,
	don't answer quickly.

20:45	Hasn't it broken away
	from the old tradition?

20:50	You understand?

20:52	The old mechanistic tradition.

20:54	When I say, I really
	don't know

20:56	I have moved out of
	that field altogether.

21:00	Right?

21:04	Q: Although I don't think
	that one's thinking

21:07	in terms of not knowing
	a new way of learning.

21:11	All that one knows

21:13	is that the conflict which
	mechanistic knowledge causes

21:19	just that
	- one doesn't know any more.

21:23	And one can see that
	one doesn't know

21:27	how to get
	over this conflict.

21:32	K: No, we are not
	talking of conflict yet sir.

21:35	We will come to
	that in a minute.

21:38	We are talking about:

21:39	is there a different

21:46	process of learning?

21:49	If you don't know it
	- I don't know it

21:52	and I actually say 'I don't know it'
	- what has happened?

21:57	Q: My mind then says if I
	don't know it I am empty.

22:03	K: Oh, for god's sake!

22:07	How silly people are.

22:12	Q: Why is it stupid? (Laughter)

22:19	K: I didn't say stupid,
	I said silly. (Laughter)

22:27	Because we are not paying
	attention, you've gone:

22:30	it is empty
	- is it empty?

22:32	Or is it so tremendously free of that
	- mechanistic

22:38	it is totally awake

22:42	because it is intensely
	curious to find out.

22:49	You see the difference?

22:53	The mind that says,
	'I don't know'

22:56	wait, let me take an example.

22:59	Do you know what God is?

23:04	Of course you have beliefs,
	you have dogmas

23:06	all kinds of conditioning,
	but actually you don't know that.

23:11	You can invent about it,
	you can think about it

23:14	you can argue about it,
	or be against it

23:19	but the actual fact:
	you don't know.

23:24	So you start with not
	knowing in order to find out.

23:29	Q: May I ask you sir

23:30	do you always start with not
	knowing when you come to speak

23:34	do you always start
	with saying that I don't know

23:37	let's find out today,
	let's find out now'?

23:41	K: Yes, that is what
	I am saying now.

23:43	Q: Is this what you
	do when you come

23:45	when you come into this tent,
	is this what you do?

23:49	Are you completely free
	of what you know before?

23:52	K: Please I don't prepare talks,
	I don't do anything

23:56	I just come and I
	spill out. (Laughter)

24:09	I have prepared talks,
	written them all out carefully

24:13	and so on and so on, and
	one day somebody suggested

24:16	throw away all
	your notes and talk.

24:19	So I did, and began that way.

24:22	Q: There is no difference
	though, is there, really?

24:24	There isn't a lot of
	difference between

24:27	having it written down on paper
	and having it written down inside.

24:30	K: No. I don't

24:31	Q: The question hasn't
	been answered.

24:35	K: I am doing it now (laughs).
	Please - you follow?

24:41	When you say actually
	you don't know

24:45	you have stopped the mechanistic
	process of learning, haven't you?

24:55	So your mind is not empty

25:01	it is free from that in which
	it has been functioning

25:07	and therefore it is now
	in a state of acute attention

25:13	learning, acute state,
	free from that.

25:21	Then what takes place?

25:26	Q: Silence.
	Q: Hunger. (Laughter)

25:29	Q: Sir, the mind gets bored.

25:33	Q: Bored?

25:35	K: Do try it, please try it, please
	do try it as we are talking here

25:42	do it, in the sense
	attempt to find out.

25:45	Q: Enquiry.
	K: Yes.

25:49	What does enquiry mean?

25:52	Enquiry implies that you must
	be free from your prejudice

25:56	from your hypothetical
	conclusions

25:59	from any form of opinion so
	that your mind is free to move.

26:06	In the same way
	if you understand

26:10	the whole nature of this mechanistic
	acquisition of knowledge

26:17	then if you put it in its right
	place you are free from it.

26:21	And you are then capable of
	complete attention, aren't you?

26:33	When there is complete
	attention is there a learning?

26:40	No, please this requires
	a little bit of going into.

26:48	I may be rather
	stupid this morning

26:51	and so please forgive me if I
	keep on persisting in this thing

26:57	but perhaps we will come
	back to it a little later.

27:02	The next question
	in that is involved:

27:06	can I observe myself
	through relationship?

27:13	Can I know myself
	fundamentally, basically

27:18	all the reactions,
	all the nuances

27:23	the subtleties of
	myself in relationship.

27:29	Right?

27:30	That is the question
	that was raised.

27:34	So we have to enquire what do
	we mean by 'relationship'

27:39	the word itself.

27:42	To be related,
	to be in contact

27:50	to be not physically intimate
	but, not only that

27:54	but to have a relationship
	at the same level

28:00	at the same moment,
	at the same intensity

28:02	then there is a relationship.

28:05	Right?

28:08	There is a relationship
	between a man and woman

28:11	or a friend and another,
	or a boy and girl

28:15	when they meet not merely
	physically only but much more

28:22	which is when they
	meet at the same level

28:26	at the same moment,
	with the same intensity

28:29	there is actual
	relationship

28:32	because they are meeting
	at the same level.

28:38	Right?

28:39	That can be called a real,
	true relationship.

28:47	Now, one's relationship with
	another is based on memory.

28:57	Right?

28:58	Would you accept it?

29:01	On the various images,
	pictures, conclusions

29:06	I have drawn about you
	and you have drawn about me.

29:12	The various images
	that I have about you

29:16	wife, husband, girl
	or boy or friend and so on.

29:21	So there is always
	image-making.

29:25	Right?

29:27	This is simple, this is normal,
	this is actually what goes on.

29:33	When one is married or lives
	with a girl or a boy

29:38	every incident, every word,
	every action creates an image - no?

29:49	Are we clear on this point?

29:52	Don't agree with me please

29:53	I am not trying to persuade
	you to anything

29:56	but actually you can
	see it for yourself.

30:01	A word is registered,
	if it is pleasant you purr

30:04	it is nice, if it is unpleasant
	you immediately shrink from it

30:09	and that creates an image.

30:11	The pleasure creates
	an image, the shrinking

30:14	the withdrawal
	creates an image.

30:18	So our actual relationship
	with each other is based on

30:25	various subtle forms of pictures,
	images and conclusions.

30:34	That's right?

30:36	Now I am asking: when that
	takes place what happens?

30:43	The man creates
	the image about her

30:48	and she creates
	an image about him.

30:51	Whether in the office,
	whether in the field, or anywhere

30:58	this relationship is essentially
	based on this formation of images.

31:05	Right?

31:08	This is a fact, isn't it?
	Can we go on from there.

31:13	Q: Yes.
	K: Then what takes place?

31:18	You have an image about her
	and she has an image about you

31:24	doesn't matter where
	it is, in the office

31:27	in the factory,
	in the field, in every way

31:31	labour, there is this
	image-making all the time.

31:37	So when there is
	an image like that

31:40	she has and you have,
	then in there there is division

31:47	and then the whole
	conflict begins.

31:54	Right?

31:55	Where there is division

31:58	between two images
	there must be conflict.

32:02	Right?

32:06	Q: Why has image become
	so important to us?

32:09	K: We will go into it, madame.

32:11	First go into it step
	by step, not say 'Why'

32:16	have you got this image
	about your brother, your sister

32:20	your husband, your wife,
	your father, whatever it is?

32:26	Then see when
	there is this image

32:29	there is certainly
	a division:

32:34	the Jew and the Arab,
	the Hindu, the Muslim

32:36	the Christian, the Communist
	- you follow?

32:39	it is the same phenomena.

32:42	Right?

32:45	When that takes place there
	must be fundamentally conflict.

32:56	The husband or the boy or
	the girl may go off to work

33:04	and there he has created
	images about himself:

33:07	his position, his worth, his
	competition and all the rest of it

33:12	comes home and says,
	'Darling how are you?'

33:16	and again he has got
	his image and she has hers.

33:20	So there is conflict.

33:24	So it is a basic law

33:28	that where there is division between
	people there must be conflict.

33:33	Full stop. Right?

33:37	The man may say to the woman

33:40	or the woman may say
	to the man 'I love you'

33:43	but that may merely
	be sensory love

33:49	sexual love but basically
	they are not related at all.

33:56	They may wear rings
	and hug each other

33:59	and sleep in the same bed
	and live in the same house

34:02	but basically he is
	pursuing his ambitions

34:05	his greed, all the rest of it,
	and she also.

34:10	Right?

34:12	So basically they never
	meet at the same level

34:17	at the same time,
	with the same intensity.

34:21	Cannot.

34:24	Right?

34:26	Do we see this?

34:27	not accept the words that are spoken
	by the speaker, that is worthless.

34:34	Actually this is
	so in daily life.

34:41	And then we can say to
	each other, 'I love you.

34:43	You are so beautiful'
	- you are this and you are that

34:47	'put more colour on
	your hair' (laughter)

34:49	you know, play
	with all that kind of stuff.

34:57	Now why do we
	create these images?

35:14	Why do you create an image
	about your girl or your wife

35:18	or your husband,
	or your boy, why?

35:24	Q: I think it is survival.
	K: Survival?

35:29	Q: I think it is through fear.

35:32	Basically because you didn't
	look at something you feared.

35:35	K: He says that it is survival.

35:37	Q: Isn't to guard one's ego.

35:40	One doesn't want
	to be intruded on.

35:43	One doesn't want someone close,
	one's frightened to lose one's ego.

35:47	K: Oh!

35:48	Is that so?
	Q: I don't know.

35:51	K: (Laughs)
	What sir?

35:55	Q: Because we don't see
	the whole of the fact.

35:59	K: How can I see the whole,
	if that is what you are saying

36:03	the whole beauty
	of relationship

36:07	the whole nature
	of love and all that

36:12	when we are so concerned about our
	beastly little selves all the time?

36:22	Q: Isn't it because we are
	registering all the time as well?

36:27	K: No, madame we have
	been through all that

36:29	I want to forget
	the registration.

36:31	Look at it anew.

36:35	Why do I, or why does one
	create an image about another?

36:41	Why do you create an image
	about the speaker? (Laughs)

36:49	Q: It is lack of attention.

36:51	K: Just go into it sir.

36:53	Why do you create an
	image about your girl

36:55	or your husband,
	boy and all that, why?

36:58	Q: To remember.
	Q: To be dependent.

36:59	Q: Because it helps us.

37:01	K: Do look at it
	before you answer.

37:03	See what you do first.

37:05	If I may gently suggest,
	see the fact of it first

37:11	not say well,
	this is it, this is that.

37:13	Just see if it is so.

37:17	Q: We want to be recognised
	in some way or another.

37:26	Q: Isn't it because I'd like to know
	what is going to happen tomorrow.

37:32	K: Do look at it sir.

37:36	You are married, you have got
	a girl, or a boy, a husband.

37:43	This image-making goes on.

37:46	And I am asking why.

37:49	Take time
	- a little. Please.

37:52	You don't know, I don't
	know, let's find out.

37:57	Q: It is very pleasant
	to have an image.

38:01	It is possession.
	K: Is it?

38:05	Is it very pleasant
	to have an image?

38:07	Q: It is very gratifying.

38:09	K: Is it very pleasant
	to have an image?

38:13	Please sir
	- an image?

38:15	Q: Image is a dirty word.
	K: All right.

38:18	I won't use the word image
	- use some other word.

38:22	Q: Fantasy.

38:24	Q: With familiarity
	- we take things for granted

38:26	we are at all times preoccupied
	rather then attentive.

38:34	K: I want to find out

38:36	why I create the image
	about my wife - if I have one.

38:43	Is it habit?

38:51	Is it convenient?

38:58	Is it immemorial conditioning?

39:05	Is it traditional
	that I do this

39:11	brought over from the genes
	and so on and so on

39:15	that instinctively
	I make an image about you?

39:21	Q: Does it matter why?
	K: Find out.

39:25	So I am saying is it this tremendous
	habit in which we live?

39:33	Q: No.
	It is influence.

39:42	K: Yes sir. Include that,
	include that. Influence.

39:49	One is so accustomed
	to being influenced

39:53	which is environment
	and all the rest of it.

39:56	So I say, is it habit

39:58	is it a tradition that has been
	handed down, unconsciously

40:04	from race to race,
	from generation to generation?

40:10	Is it a thing which I have
	accepted as my arm

40:16	as I accept a leg,
	it is part of me?

40:21	Q: Sir, does that really answer
	the question why, though.

40:24	That is just saying that
	we do have an image

40:27	but why do we have an image?

40:30	K: I am going into that sir.

40:32	Q: People, please,
	follow the speaker, don't ask.

40:36	K: Comment, madame?
	(Laughter)

40:41	Q: I think it is a continuation
	of the conditioning

40:45	that we ourselves
	have received.

40:49	K: It is part of
	our conditioning

40:52	inherited from father
	to son and so on, so on

40:56	generation after generation.

40:59	So just let's find out.

41:02	So put all this together

41:04	habit,
	immemorial tradition

41:12	desire for a sense of nearness
	and yet withdrawal - all that.

41:23	Is that why we do it?
	Q: Security.

41:27	K: Do look at it, take a second,
	darling, please take a second.

41:37	Or is it that we want to
	be certain of the girl

41:42	or the boy, the husband,
	certain of her?

41:46	Certain to possess her,
	it is mine and not yours.

41:54	All that is involved in it.

42:01	Desire for certainty
	- it is my wife, my girl

42:07	my boy, my husband,
	I am sure.

42:19	That is, it gives me certainty
	in my relationship with another.

42:25	I know my wife
	- which is the most absurd statement.

42:34	It gives me a feeling
	that I possess something

42:42	and I am sure
	of that possession.

42:45	So habit, tradition, a thousand,
	million years of tradition

42:54	carried from generation
	to generation to generation.

42:58	Then the desire to possess

43:03	to be dominated

43:06	love to be possessed
	and love to be dominated

43:09	a neurotic state

43:12	and the desire to be certain:

43:15	it is my house,
	my table, my pen, my wife.

43:22	Right?

43:29	What do you say to all this?

43:31	Q: We should be free of all that.

43:39	K: We should be, or we are?

43:42	Q: We should be.
	K: Oh!

43:46	I should be on the top of the Himalayas,
	but I am not! (Laughter)

43:53	Q: How can I recognise?

43:55	K: How can we
	talk over together

43:59	if we are not both moving
	in the same direction!

44:03	Please.

44:07	The 'should be'
	is non-existent

44:10	'what is' is the only fact.

44:12	Q: Can one not
	accept this state

44:17	K: Why should I
	you see, you see I can't

44:21	Q: by understanding it?
	K: No, madame we are doing it.

44:25	We are doing it step by
	step, going into this.

44:32	I am certain about my name,
	I am certain about my form

44:39	physical form, I am certain
	I am qualified mechanically

44:44	or a scientist, or professor
	- I am certain, it's my profession

44:53	my career as a military,
	or navy, or a doctor

44:58	it is my career,
	and I am certain.

45:01	So I want to be certain
	in my relationship - no?

45:10	And when that
	certainty is shaken

45:14	then begins the trouble
	- ends up in divorce

45:19	or a separation, or whatever
	you like to call it.

45:24	So these are the factors.

45:26	That we create these images
	in order to be sure, certain

45:33	in order to possess
	and in that possession

45:37	feel the power, the pleasure,
	the strength of that possession.

45:46	And there is this inherited
	a thousand million years

45:52	or a million years
	of man's desire

45:57	to hold somebody and not
	let go, and so on, so on.

46:01	These are the factors in daily life
	- no?

46:06	Q: So that implies something
	is just fixed, doesn't it?

46:09	K: Yes sir.
	Q: We also make use

46:11	K: That is right.
	I want to be certain.

46:13	I want to be sure when I come
	back from the office she is there.

46:22	And when she comes
	back from the office

46:24	she wants to be quite sure
	I will turn up too! (Laughter)

46:30	This is the game we have been playing
	infinitely, in varieties of ways.

46:36	Q: Why do we need the certainty?

46:38	K: We are going to go into that.
	Go slowly sir.

46:43	Q: I am afraid I lose control.

46:47	K: You are afraid to
	lose control over her?

46:51	I hope your wife is there!
	(Laughter)

47:05	Q: (Inaudible)

47:08	K: Look sir, we are talking about
	something so tremendously serious.

47:22	Whether it is possible,
	knowing this

47:25	knowing these are facts,
	not imagination, not ideas

47:30	not some conclusions
	which you have got because

47:33	I have talked about it
	but these are daily facts.

47:38	Now the question is:

47:42	in that there is no
	possibility of relationship.

47:46	You may sleep together,
	you may hold hands together

47:49	do all kinds of
	things together

47:52	but actually there
	is no relationship.

47:56	That is a fact.

47:59	And we don't want
	to acknowledge it.

48:04	Because the moment you
	acknowledge it then begins doubt

48:10	you've frightened,
	nervous and all that begins.

48:15	Now, please just listen.

48:20	Now, can I learn about myself
	in my relationship with another?

48:28	That is the question we began with,
	that is the question that was put.

48:34	In that relationship I
	can observe my reactions.

48:40	Right?

48:44	I like and I don't like.

48:46	She said a nasty word,
	he was so pleasant, and so on

48:49	my reactions I can watch.

48:52	Those reactions are
	myself, aren't they?

48:56	They are not separate from me

48:58	both sensory as well as nervous,
	psychological responses.

49:07	Right?

49:10	I am learning about myself
	tremendously as I go along

49:13	I have seen, oh,
	infinitely what I am doing

49:23	what I have done, what I am
	doing, what I will do tomorrow

49:27	if I continue this mechanistic
	way of behaviour.

49:32	Right?

49:36	And death comes and you say,
	'Darling, I am leaving you'

49:39	She feels terribly lonely,
	miserable, unhappy, tears

49:44	finds out suddenly she is
	left alone, or he is left alone.

49:49	And then he can't face it, he
	goes off to some entertainment

49:53	or goes off with
	another woman, or boy

49:55	or whatever it is, or becomes
	tremendously religious. (Laughter)

50:11	What a game we are
	playing with each other.

50:15	Right sir?

50:19	So I see this is a fact.

50:23	I have learnt a tremendous
	lot about myself

50:27	in my relationship
	with another.

50:32	Then the factor arises:
	can this image-making stop?

50:38	You understand my question?

50:44	Can this momentum of the past

50:48	of all that tremendous
	momentum

50:51	with tremendous
	volume behind it

50:54	like a river with a great
	volume of water rushing

51:04	can all this image-making
	tradition

51:12	desire for all that end,
	without a single conflict?

51:18	You understand my question?

51:24	Are you interested in this?
	Q: Yes.

51:28	K: What will you pay for it?
	(Laughter)

51:33	That is all you can do.

51:35	By paying something you
	think you will get it.

51:43	Now how can this
	mechanism of image-making

51:51	not just image-making,
	the desire for certainty

51:54	the tradition, the whole
	structure of that, can that end?

52:01	Right?

52:03	Are you asking that question?

52:05	Or am I asking, and (laughs)
	putting my question onto you?

52:17	If you put that
	question to yourself

52:22	do you say, 'I don't know
	therefore I will find out'?

52:30	Or you are already
	struggling to find out?

52:41	How can this image-making
	come to an end.

52:48	Which means the ending
	of registration

53:00	not to register a word
	that she or he says

53:06	the sneer, the insult,
	the nagging

53:10	all that,
	not to register at all.

53:18	Is that possible?

53:28	Do you understand my question?

53:30	Please don't go off
	to sleep or some

53:33	I am asking this question,
	you have to answer it.

53:38	Q: No, it is not possible.
	I don't find it possible.

53:41	K: The lady says
	it is not possible

53:43	therefore
	she has shut the door.

53:46	Q: No, I haven't shut the door,
	but I find it impossible.

53:48	K: Ah, the moment you
	say it is impossible

53:50	it is not possible, or it
	is possible you have shut the door.

53:56	It is like a man saying
	'I can't do it' - finished.

54:03	I am sure each of us can do it.

54:08	I am certain, clear

54:10	if you put your heart and
	your mind into this question.

54:23	When the wife or the girl,
	or the man or the husband

54:26	says to you, 'You are
	rather stupid this morning'

54:32	must you register that

54:36	react to the word,
	to his feeling

54:42	and watch your own reactions
	to the word and his feeling.

54:47	You follow?

54:48	Can you watch
	all this instantly?

54:58	Or he says, 'You look very nice this
	morning' and you You follow?

55:09	Go into it sir.

55:16	Not to register at all.

55:23	Now is this possible?

55:25	Please we are talking about

55:29	learning about oneself
	in relationship.

55:35	And we see why we
	create this image and so on

55:41	and therefore there is no
	actual relationship at all.

55:46	There may be
	physical relationship.

55:48	Psychologically, obviously
	you are totally divided.

55:54	How can you be related and love
	another if you are ambitious?

56:01	You can't.

56:05	Or competitive, or this or that.

56:09	So you have learnt
	a tremendous lot

56:12	in enquiring
	into this relationship.

56:16	You have come to
	the point now when we say:

56:19	is this possible, to hear
	the word, not shut off

56:26	hear the word, see
	the meaning of the word

56:30	the significance
	of the word

56:33	the expression on the face of
	the man or the woman who says it

56:38	and your own reaction to all that,
	can you be aware of all that?

56:47	Q: Sir, it seems that we
	are continually getting

56:49	into this difficulty at this
	point of saying I don't know.

56:54	Could we look at that and
	maybe it is the mechanism

56:57	that builds the images that
	doesn't want to say 'I don't know'.

57:02	It doesn't like
	the idea of saying it.

57:04	K: No, don't keep on repeating,
	'I don't know'

57:06	then you are stuck.
	Q: Yes.

57:08	K: But we started out by
	saying we create these images

57:12	why we create
	these images is fairly clear.

57:16	And we said, the next question
	is: can this image-making stop?

57:20	Then I can say, 'I don't know'.

57:24	Right?

57:25	Because then your mind when you say
	you don't know is tremendously alert.

57:30	Q: So one has to be concerned
	to end the images.

57:32	K: Yes.

57:33	You are concerned to find out
	whether the image-making can stop.

57:40	And you say it is not possible,
	or it is possible, you are stuck.

57:45	But when you say
	'I don't know, but I am moving'.

57:47	When I say 'I don't know',
	I am not static.

57:50	I am moving, I am tremendously
	active and full of energy to find out.

58:00	I am not transmitting my energy to
	you, you are doing it yourself, please.

58:06	That is a danger.
	(Laughs)

58:11	So, is this possible?

58:17	Which means to listen
	and not to register.

58:24	Q: Sometimes you are paralysed.

58:27	K: No, there is no
	paralysis madame.

58:30	You can't paralyse
	when your relationship

58:33	with another is so
	tremendously important.

58:36	All life is relationship.

58:40	Not just you and me, it's a

58:43	not only you and me,
	it is a global problem.

58:48	So we have to meet it
	globally, not just

58:51	'Oh, I love my wife'
	- you follow?

58:53	you and me,
	that is too little affair.

58:56	When you understand
	the global issue

58:58	then you will understand
	the little issue.

59:01	But if you start
	with the little issue

59:02	you won't understand
	the global thing

59:06	global in the sense,
	the enormity of it.

59:11	It concerns every human
	being wherever he may be.

59:18	So I say

59:22	now can I listen
	to the word

59:29	see the expression,
	the gesture

59:33	the contempt

59:37	the arrogance and so on,
	on the face of the other

59:41	and listen to it
	without any reaction?

59:49	So now we will have to find
	out what you mean by listening.

59:56	Are we interested in this?

59:57	Can we go on?

1:00:00	No, please I can
	go on, but you see

1:00:03	I have spent my life from
	the age of fifteen at this.

1:00:07	Right?

1:00:08	So please, spend also
	an hour with this.

1:00:18	Can I listen.

1:00:19	Therefore what does
	it mean to listen?

1:00:26	Do you ever listen?

1:00:29	Are you listening now?

1:00:33	Please, you understand?

1:00:34	Are you listening
	to what I am saying?

1:00:36	No, I am not sure.

1:00:38	Or you are listening
	to a conclusion

1:00:41	which you have
	made about yourself?

1:00:45	Or in listening you have
	already drawn a conclusion?

1:00:50	Or you have abstracted
	from listening an idea

1:00:57	and pursuing that idea?

1:00:59	Therefore you are not
	actually listening.

1:01:07	So are we listening now?

1:01:10	That means you are listening without
	a single movement of thought

1:01:19	because you are so tremendously
	concerned about this.

1:01:24	If you are not well

1:01:27	then you won't listen.

1:01:29	If you are deeply,
	profoundly concerned about this

1:01:34	then you will instinctively,
	naturally listen.

1:01:42	And so are you listening
	from your experience

1:01:54	are you listening
	to the word

1:01:58	and not to the content
	of the word

1:02:01	or are you listening, making an
	abstraction of what you are hearing

1:02:06	into an idea and say,
	'Yes, I have got it'?

1:02:10	Which means then that you are
	listening without any movement

1:02:15	any movement of thought,
	any movement of intention.

1:02:19	Just listening.

1:02:26	If that is so

1:02:29	carefully please hear
	what I have to say

1:02:31	if you can so listen
	when the boy or the girl

1:02:36	or the wife, can you listen
	to that in the same way?

1:02:43	You understand my question?
	You are finished.

1:02:48	It is so terribly simple if you
	capture the simplicity of it.

1:02:54	But intellectually we make
	a such a mess of everything.

1:03:01	So if there is
	the act of listening

1:03:08	then there is
	no registration.

1:03:17	The other day after the talk,
	one of the talks

1:03:21	a man came up to me and said
	'What a marvellous talk that was.

1:03:25	Oh, it was excellent.
	It feels I have got it all'

1:03:33	I listened to it very carefully.

1:03:39	I have been told
	this for 50 years

1:03:44	and if I keep on registering
	how marvellous it is

1:03:48	I would be a cuckoo!
	(Laughter)

1:03:54	So can you please find out?

1:03:58	To listen to somebody
	saying nasty things

1:04:03	or pleasurable things, so completely
	that there is no registration.

1:04:12	Which means can you be so
	attentive at the moment

1:04:16	the word is said that there
	is no centre which records?

1:04:25	You understand my question?

1:04:27	Have you ever been attentive?

1:04:33	Attentive in the sense,
	giving all your attention

1:04:37	all your energy, your heart,
	your mind, everything you have.

1:04:45	When you do that
	there is no 'me'

1:04:48	from which you are attentive,
	there is only attention.

1:04:51	Right?

1:04:53	In that attention
	there is no recording.

1:04:57	It is only when
	there is inattention

1:05:00	there is the centre
	which records.

1:05:03	Got it?

1:05:06	You've understood?

1:05:08	Q: So, there is no distraction.
	K: No.

1:05:12	Sir, there is no such
	thing as distraction.

1:05:21	Please understand this.

1:05:24	There is no such
	thing as distraction.

1:05:27	You want to pay
	attention to that

1:05:31	and you are distracted
	as one generally is.

1:05:34	Which means what?

1:05:35	You are not paying attention

1:05:37	therefore there
	is no distraction.

1:05:43	So realise that you are not
	attentive and therefore distraction.

1:05:49	The moment you are aware
	that you are inattentive

1:05:51	you are already attentive.

1:05:53	Capture this, sir!

1:05:54	There is no effort
	necessary in this.

1:05:59	So it is possible not
	to register at all

1:06:05	when the wife says something
	pleasant or unpleasant

1:06:08	or a friend or a boy or a girl
	or a boy at the office, labour.

1:06:16	Can you live that way?

1:06:18	Not for one day
	or a few minutes

1:06:21	can you live the entirety
	of your life that way?

1:06:28	Q: Regardless of your age.

1:06:38	K: Regardless of my age,
	or your age? (Laughter)

1:06:43	I don't understand this.

1:06:48	Q: Excuse me sir.

1:06:50	When I am attentive in this
	way of which you speak

1:06:54	is the attention
	limited to the thing

1:06:59	to which I am attentive?
	K: No.

1:07:01	Q: Or identified with.
	K: No.

1:07:03	Attention is attention,
	not limited to this or to that.

1:07:07	I am attentive.

1:07:11	There is attention.

1:07:13	Not tension.
	(Laughter)

1:07:16	When you are attentive
	there is no tension.

1:07:24	Now wait a minute, now wait
	a minute, just look at it:

1:07:28	the question was
	about learning

1:07:35	and can one learn about
	oneself through relationship.

1:07:39	We went into the whole
	thing step by step

1:07:43	logically, reasonably,
	sanely.

1:07:47	Now, just a minute,
	listen to this.

1:07:48	We went into it very,
	very carefully, in detail.

1:07:52	Now can you observe this
	whole thing as a whole

1:07:58	not broken up little pieces.

1:08:01	You understand my question?

1:08:04	Can you have perception of
	the entirety of the structure?

1:08:13	We have dealt bit by bit, fragment
	by fragment, or piece by piece.

1:08:25	That means nothing personally
	to me, because that's

1:08:29	but if you capture
	the whole thing

1:08:32	then from that
	you can work details.

1:08:34	But you cannot through
	details work to the whole.

1:08:40	Now can you after an hour
	and 20 minutes, or 10 minutes

1:08:47	or a quarter, can you observe
	this whole phenomenon

1:08:52	of registration, learning,
	relationship as a whole?

1:08:59	I mean by whole having a deep
	insight into the whole thing

1:09:09	instantly.

1:09:14	You see we are not used to that.

1:09:16	We are always from
	one thing to another

1:09:24	from one fragment
	to another fragment

1:09:29	from one broken
	piece to another

1:09:31	and so gradually
	build up the whole.

1:09:35	We think we have
	built up the whole.

1:09:38	But the whole is not this.

1:09:42	The whole is the perception of
	the whole structure and beyond.

1:09:50	Then you can be
	terribly logical.

1:10:01	Q: And beyond the structure you said.
	K: Oh, of course.

1:10:06	The structure is
	very, very fragile.

1:10:13	Q: Is the attention
	including the structure

1:10:18	and going beyond
	the structure?

1:10:20	K: Yes sir, when we are attentive
	the structure is non-existent.

1:10:28	You understand?
	You are missing all this.

1:10:31	When you are totally attentive
	there is no structure.

1:10:36	Right?

1:10:37	That attention is meeting
	the person at the same level

1:10:44	at the same time,
	with the same intensity

1:10:47	the other may not, that is
	indifferent, that is irrelevant.

1:10:52	Your mind is meeting
	that totally.

1:10:59	Then begins the objection
	on the other person

1:11:05	saying
	'You are indifferent to me,'

1:11:07	you are this,
	you are that, begins.

1:11:10	You are not the cause
	- you understand?

1:11:15	I wonder if you see all this!

1:11:18	Q: What is being attentive?
	K: I have explained madame.

1:11:23	You are not attentive to something,
	about something

1:11:27	or for something,
	you are just attentive.

1:11:29	Q: Who, what is it that
	is being attentive?

1:11:32	K: There is no you to be attentive,
	I have explained that.

1:11:36	There is only attention.

1:11:38	Q: And there isn't
	another I there?

1:11:40	K: No, no, please. See you
	are going off to something.

1:11:47	So are we, at the end of an hour
	and a quarter - free of the images?

1:11:56	If you are not you
	haven't been listening

1:12:00	and nobody can
	force you to listen.

1:12:05	It is up to you.

1:12:09	If you want the present
	kind of relationship

1:12:12	with each other and so with
	humanity, globally that way

1:12:17	it is up to you

1:12:22	but if you want
	to find out

1:12:24	a way of living
	totally differently

1:12:26	it is also up to you but you
	have to listen to everything

1:12:31	in yourself, in other
	- you follow?

1:12:38	I think that is enough
	this morning, isn't it?

1:12:41	Q: Sir, I don't see how
	the structure disappears

1:12:43	I am sorry, I
	don't understand it.

1:12:45	How does the structure disappear
	when I am attentive to it?

1:12:50	What makes the

1:12:52	K: Sir, I will tell
	you, I'll tell you.

1:12:54	The structure exists with all
	that we mean by structure

1:12:59	which is the desire
	for certainty

1:13:03	habit, centuries of
	tradition and so on

1:13:09	all that is the structure,
	the picture, the image

1:13:14	which we have
	made about another.

1:13:17	When we are totally attentive
	there is no structure

1:13:24	and therefore you are
	there is no structure

1:13:27	therefore you are beyond
	everything, the image-making.

1:13:31	You just try one thing.

1:13:34	Just for fun.

1:13:37	Next time your wife, your
	husband, your girl or boy

1:13:40	says something pleasant
	or unpleasant, watch it

1:13:45	just for that
	second watch it

1:13:50	be attentive for
	that single moment

1:13:57	and then you will see whether
	you are registering or not.

1:14:00	You see that is what I
	mean, find out, try it

1:14:04	otherwise you
	will never find out.

1:14:08	Finished.

1:14:12	Q: It seems to me there
	is contradiction

1:14:15	how can we watch it and be
	one with it at the same time?

1:14:20	For god's sake explain that.
	K: I don't quite follow sir.

1:14:23	Q: How can we be fear and
	watch fear at the same time?

1:14:31	K: No, we are going
	off into something sir.

1:14:34	I am saying

1:14:38	that you have listened
	for an hour

1:14:41	right sir?
	- an hour and a quarter.

1:14:45	You have realised, understood

1:14:47	the mechanistic way of learning
	and a different way. Right?

1:14:55	And also whether one can learn
	about oneself through relationship.

1:15:00	We went into that more or less.

1:15:04	Now I am asking: can you be aware
	of this whole structure first?

1:15:10	Right?

1:15:12	Be aware of it as you
	are aware of the colour

1:15:14	of the dress of the person
	sitting next to you.

1:15:20	Then be aware that you
	are separate from that

1:15:26	which is absurd,
	therefore in that awareness

1:15:29	you realise there is no division
	- right? - I am going on.

1:15:35	Right?

1:15:36	And so in that awareness
	where there is no division

1:15:40	there begins to be
	a sense of great attention.

1:15:44	In that attention

1:15:46	which is not yours or another's,
	it is just attention.

1:15:51	In that attention, the whole
	structure is non-existent

1:15:57	and I say from
	that when your wife

1:16:01	or a girl, or a boy
	says something to you

1:16:05	be attentive at that moment
	and see what happens.