Krishnamurti Subtitles

Can One Learn Through Relationship?

Brockwood Park - 31 August 1978

Public Discussion 2

0:44 K: What shall we talk about this
morning, talk over together?
0:49 Q: May I please request
you to say something
0:51 about the energy
of consciousness?
0:55 The energies.
0:58 K: Would you
talk over together
1:02 the energy that
you talk about.
1:07 Q: I feel after Tuesday's
1:11 that there is some confusion
over the word 'observation'
1:14 in as much as what we
generally call observation
1:18 is in fact commentary after
the fact and not observation at all.
1:28 K: What do you mean
by observation.
1:31 We generally
observe after the event
1:35 and not observe
as it is taking place
1:38 is that what you mean sir?
Q: Yes.
1:41 K: Any other?
1:43 Madame?
1:46 Q: Could you speak
about learning
1:48 and what is learning,
what is relationship?
1:54 And can one learn about
oneself through relationship?
2:00 K: Can one learn about oneself
through self-observation.
2:09 Q: And relationship with others.
2:11 K: Can one learn through relationship
with others about oneself.
2:19 That's what
that is the question.
2:21 Q: Yes sir.
2:22 Q: Sir, could we talk
about emptiness, please.
2:24 K: Just a minute.
2:25 Q: You have said that
silence is the one fact.
2:28 I wonder if you could
enlarge on that.
2:32 K: Silence is a fact and could
we go into it, enlarge it
2:40 and see the depth of it,
the meaning of it.
2:46 Q: Could you go into
emptiness please?
2:49 K: Could we go over together
2:54 talk about that which you
have said about emptiness.
3:03 Q: Can we continue the question
of registration
3:06 whether one should
register or not.
3:08 K: Oh.
3:10 The question of registration
3:12 whether one
should register or not.
3:16 I wonder if you were
here the other day, sir
3:20 I think we discussed
it two days ago
3:22 or the day before and
I hope you will not mind
3:24 if we don't go into it because
we went into it pretty thoroughly.
3:30 Q; I wonder, could we talk
about the energy of violence.
3:36 K: Talk about energy of violence.
3:41 Q: (In French)
3:54 K: Disorder.
3:55 Can one be aware of oneself
3:58 at the same time
observe one's disorder?
4:02 Q: Can one be one
with fear and so on
4:06 and at the same
time observe it.
4:08 K: That's it sir.
4:10 Q: If we shouldn't discipline
and shouldn't make an effort
4:14 but we should
work on ourselves.
4:16 I don't understand
not to discipline
4:19 and not to make the effort
but still be working on ourselves.
4:24 Can you make that more clear?
4:26 K: Can you talk over together
4:34 about effort
and discipline
4:37 and without effort
can one observe oneself.
4:41 Now just a minute, please:
we have had so many questions.
4:46 I don't know of whom you
are asking these questions
4:52 because we are asking
these questions of ourselves
4:56 and trying to find
a solution, an answer.
5:02 So these are the questions:
5:08 can one learn about oneself
through relationship
5:14 and also what do you
mean by that word 'learn'
5:19 can one learn about oneself
through relationship
5:27 and what do you
mean by learning.
5:29 The other is, talk about
emptiness, silence.
5:41 I think that is about all.
Q: Violence.
5:45 K: And that lady points out can
one observe oneself in action
5:56 and that lady put
a question, which is
6:02 effort and discipline
seem to go together
6:07 and you apparently point out
a different way of observing, acting.
6:13 So which of these
questions shall we take?
6:18 Q: The last question: you also
point out that you must do it.
6:23 It seems like a contradiction.
K: Contradiction.
6:27 You also say you must do it,
that is, test it out.
6:32 Test it out, test out
what is being said
6:36 in one's own life and
not depend on somebody else.
6:42 Now which of these questions
shall we talk about?
6:45 Q: Learning and relationship.
6:50 K: Learning and can one learn
about oneself through relationship.
6:58 Now which of these questions would
you like to talk over together?
7:03 Q: Energy.
Q: Silence and emptiness.
7:07 Q: Silence and energy.
7:08 K: Silence, emptiness,
7:12 all right, I think we
can bring it all together
7:17 in talking over this question
of what is learning
7:22 and can one learn about oneself
in any kind of relationship
7:30 and perhaps if we could
go into that rather deeply
7:33 we might be able to answer
these several questions
7:37 about energy, silence,
discipline and effort
7:43 and can one observe without
any effort and discipline
7:51 and is it possible
to be aware
7:53 at the same time when
one is acting, conscious?
7:57 Right? And silence and so on.
7:59 Can we bring all this
into this one question
8:04 which has been put:
8:07 what is learning and can
one learn through relationship?
8:12 Can we go into that and bring
all the other factors into it?
8:19 May we?
Q: Yes.
8:21 K: All right.
8:24 What do we mean by learning?
8:29 I think this is a fairly
important question
8:32 if we could go into it
rather slowly and carefully.
8:36 We learn from books
8:40 we learn from parents, colleges,
universities and so on
8:45 and also we learn
through experience.
8:49 We learn through
various forms of events
8:55 which all become
knowledge. Right?
9:00 That is fairly clear:
9:02 that we gather information,
9:09 and various forms
of events and incidents
9:14 that happen in our life
9:17 and from all these we
accumulate knowledge
9:21 and from that
knowledge we act.
9:26 Right? That is one
way of learning.
9:31 Is there another way
of learning at all?
9:37 That is what we are We know
the ordinary way of learning.
9:42 Is there another
way of learning?
9:45 Because the ordinary
way of learning
9:47 the implications of learning
in the ordinary way
9:51 is to accumulate
knowledge and act
9:54 according to
that knowledge
9:57 therefore that learning helps us
to become more and more mechanical.
10:03 I don't know if you follow all this.
May I go on with it?
10:07 This is not a talk by me.
10:11 We are sharing
this thing together.
10:14 So, please, I can go into it
but you will also have to join in
10:21 in the investigation of
what we mean by learning.
10:27 So it is your responsibility too
not just mine, talking about it.
10:35 The ordinary everyday
form of learning
10:39 is to accumulate through experience,
events and accidents
10:45 and so on, a great
deal of knowledge
10:50 and that knowledge
is always the past.
10:53 There is no future knowledge.
10:57 Right?
11:01 And if we act according
to that knowledge
11:04 it must be action
based on the past
11:11 based on knowledge
11:13 and that knowledge
can be expanded infinitely
11:16 or to a certain extent,
but it will always be limited
11:22 it will always become
a routine, mechanical.
11:27 So we are asking if there
is another way of learning.
11:35 Learning through
accumulation of knowledge
11:40 and acting according to
the accumulation of knowledge
11:46 you understand? - acting and
acquiring knowledge from that action
11:53 or having acquired knowledge
through various forms, act from that.
12:00 You follow?
Do you understand?
12:05 Am I making myself clear?
Q: Yes.
12:08 K: That is, I accumulate
knowledge about science
12:15 about technology,
doctors and so on, accumulate it.
12:20 And then from that
accumulation I act.
12:24 Or act and through
that action learn.
12:33 And having learnt a great
deal through action
12:37 that also becomes knowledge.
12:40 So both are
the same essentially:
12:46 acquire knowledge
and then act
12:50 act and from that action accumulate,
which becomes knowledge.
12:56 So essentially
both are the same.
12:59 Both tend to become mechanical.
13:04 If this is clear then
the question is:
13:09 is there a way of learning
which is non-mechanistic?
13:16 I don't know if you are
interested in all this.
13:23 To find that out we
must be very clear
13:29 that the mechanistic activity
of accumulated knowledge
13:35 and the whole movement of that,
one must be very, very clear in oneself.
13:43 Can we proceed?
13:44 Please, as we are talking
over together
13:49 find out how you learn
13:53 whether this learning is becoming
more and more, more mechanistic.
13:59 You hear me, the speaker,
read about it, listen to tapes, learn
14:06 accumulate knowledge
and then say
14:09 'Well, I am going
to practice that'
14:14 Therefore that practise
becomes mechanistic.
14:20 Now we are asking:
is there a different movement
14:25 which is not mechanistic?
- which is also learning
14:30 but it is not accumulated
knowledge and acting from that.
14:35 Right?
14:38 Is this clear?
Q: Yes.
14:41 Q: Sir, part of that
mechanistic process
14:44 might be an attempt
to destroy the knowledge
14:48 that you have accumulated.
14:51 K: Yes, which is
still mechanistic.
14:53 You try to get rid of that past
knowledge which you accumulated
14:57 you say that is not
the way to learn
14:58 so you learn in a different
form but yet accumulate.
15:04 Q: Yes.
15:06 K: This accumulation process
goes on all the time.
15:10 So we are asking, please:
15:13 is there a different way of learning
which is not accumulative
15:18 which is not mechanistic,
which is not
15:21 all the time functioning
on the past movement.
15:26 Right? We are going
to find that out.
15:29 Do please enquire, question
15:32 challenge all the rest of
it for yourself and find out.
15:37 We said very clearly,
action and then knowledge
15:44 knowledge and action are
both essentially the same.
15:50 Now we are asking: is
there a different learning?
15:55 Don't jump to conclusion
15:57 don't say spontaneity,
don't say it is intuition.
16:03 Don't let's be caught in words.
16:08 Is there a way of learning
which is not mechanistic?
16:16 Q: Does silence come into this?
K: You see, you are jumping.
16:21 Don't come It is as
though you don't know.
16:25 Q: Through suffering
in relationship.
16:30 K: Wait, madame we
are coming to that.
16:35 We are starting with,
is there
16:39 a question mark,
therefore you don't know.
16:43 So don't say it is silence,
this or that.
16:47 You really don't know.
16:50 Say, that is
the way to find out
16:56 with a clean slate, you don't know,
so you are going to find out.
17:01 Are you quite sure
you don't know?
17:06 Or you pretend you
don't know? (Laughter)
17:11 No, please, for oneself, I am
talking of oneself seriously.
17:17 Do I pretend
that I don't know
17:19 or I actually don't know
a way of learning
17:27 perhaps learning then
has a different meaning
17:30 a way of learning which is
not mechanistic, I don't know.
17:36 I have to be terribly honest
to myself then I can find out.
17:42 But if I say, 'Yes, I don't know,
but I have a few ideas
17:45 about it, behind me',
then you are not enquiring at all.
17:53 So can we start honestly by
saying I really don't know?
18:02 Which is rather difficult
18:05 because when you don't
know you are looking
18:10 you are trying
to find out if you know.
18:15 You understand my question?
18:17 When you say I don't know
18:19 but there is always
the desire to find out
18:23 or expect to be told
18:26 or project some hidden hope
and that becomes an idea
18:34 and say, 'Yes,
I begin to capture it'
18:37 So if you can be free
of all that and say
18:42 'I actually do not know',
then you are curious
18:47 you are really curious,
like a young boy
18:50 or a girl learning
for the first time.
18:55 You have got it? No, no,
see what has happened.
19:03 Do watch yourself sir,
don't look at me or anyone
19:07 watch yourself,
which is, when you say
19:09 'I really don't know',
what has taken place?
19:16 Your mind is not actively
thinking out how to find out.
19:26 Right?
19:30 Are we meeting each
other in this point?
19:36 Say for instance,
I really don't know
19:42 which means I have
no hope of finding it
19:47 I have no conclusion,
I have no motive.
19:54 This is very important,
when I say I don't know
19:58 in that is implied having
no motive whatsoever.
20:04 Because motive
then gives a direction
20:07 and then I have lost it.
20:10 So I must be very, very clear
20:14 and terribly honest in myself
to say, I really don't know.
20:22 Wait sir,
listen to it carefully.
20:24 I really don't know, then what
has taken place in my mind?
20:33 Q: Nothing.
20:35 K: Find out,
don't answer quickly.
20:45 Hasn't it broken away
from the old tradition?
20:50 You understand?
20:52 The old mechanistic tradition.
20:54 When I say, I really
don't know
20:56 I have moved out of
that field altogether.
21:00 Right?
21:04 Q: Although I don't think
that one's thinking
21:07 in terms of not knowing
a new way of learning.
21:11 All that one knows
21:13 is that the conflict which
mechanistic knowledge causes
21:19 just that
- one doesn't know any more.
21:23 And one can see that
one doesn't know
21:27 how to get
over this conflict.
21:32 K: No, we are not
talking of conflict yet sir.
21:35 We will come to
that in a minute.
21:38 We are talking about:
21:39 is there a different
21:46 process of learning?
21:49 If you don't know it
- I don't know it
21:52 and I actually say 'I don't know it'
- what has happened?
21:57 Q: My mind then says if I
don't know it I am empty.
22:03 K: Oh, for god's sake!
22:07 How silly people are.
22:12 Q: Why is it stupid? (Laughter)
22:19 K: I didn't say stupid,
I said silly. (Laughter)
22:27 Because we are not paying
attention, you've gone:
22:30 it is empty
- is it empty?
22:32 Or is it so tremendously free of that
- mechanistic
22:38 it is totally awake
22:42 because it is intensely
curious to find out.
22:49 You see the difference?
22:53 The mind that says,
'I don't know'
22:56 wait, let me take an example.
22:59 Do you know what God is?
23:04 Of course you have beliefs,
you have dogmas
23:06 all kinds of conditioning,
but actually you don't know that.
23:11 You can invent about it,
you can think about it
23:14 you can argue about it,
or be against it
23:19 but the actual fact:
you don't know.
23:24 So you start with not
knowing in order to find out.
23:29 Q: May I ask you sir
23:30 do you always start with not
knowing when you come to speak
23:34 do you always start
with saying that I don't know
23:37 let's find out today,
let's find out now'?
23:41 K: Yes, that is what
I am saying now.
23:43 Q: Is this what you
do when you come
23:45 when you come into this tent,
is this what you do?
23:49 Are you completely free
of what you know before?
23:52 K: Please I don't prepare talks,
I don't do anything
23:56 I just come and I
spill out. (Laughter)
24:09 I have prepared talks,
written them all out carefully
24:13 and so on and so on, and
one day somebody suggested
24:16 throw away all
your notes and talk.
24:19 So I did, and began that way.
24:22 Q: There is no difference
though, is there, really?
24:24 There isn't a lot of
difference between
24:27 having it written down on paper
and having it written down inside.
24:30 K: No. I don't
24:31 Q: The question hasn't
been answered.
24:35 K: I am doing it now (laughs).
Please - you follow?
24:41 When you say actually
you don't know
24:45 you have stopped the mechanistic
process of learning, haven't you?
24:55 So your mind is not empty
25:01 it is free from that in which
it has been functioning
25:07 and therefore it is now
in a state of acute attention
25:13 learning, acute state,
free from that.
25:21 Then what takes place?
25:26 Q: Silence.
Q: Hunger. (Laughter)
25:29 Q: Sir, the mind gets bored.
25:33 Q: Bored?
25:35 K: Do try it, please try it, please
do try it as we are talking here
25:42 do it, in the sense
attempt to find out.
25:45 Q: Enquiry.
K: Yes.
25:49 What does enquiry mean?
25:52 Enquiry implies that you must
be free from your prejudice
25:56 from your hypothetical
25:59 from any form of opinion so
that your mind is free to move.
26:06 In the same way
if you understand
26:10 the whole nature of this mechanistic
acquisition of knowledge
26:17 then if you put it in its right
place you are free from it.
26:21 And you are then capable of
complete attention, aren't you?
26:33 When there is complete
attention is there a learning?
26:40 No, please this requires
a little bit of going into.
26:48 I may be rather
stupid this morning
26:51 and so please forgive me if I
keep on persisting in this thing
26:57 but perhaps we will come
back to it a little later.
27:02 The next question
in that is involved:
27:06 can I observe myself
through relationship?
27:13 Can I know myself
fundamentally, basically
27:18 all the reactions,
all the nuances
27:23 the subtleties of
myself in relationship.
27:29 Right?
27:30 That is the question
that was raised.
27:34 So we have to enquire what do
we mean by 'relationship'
27:39 the word itself.
27:42 To be related,
to be in contact
27:50 to be not physically intimate
but, not only that
27:54 but to have a relationship
at the same level
28:00 at the same moment,
at the same intensity
28:02 then there is a relationship.
28:05 Right?
28:08 There is a relationship
between a man and woman
28:11 or a friend and another,
or a boy and girl
28:15 when they meet not merely
physically only but much more
28:22 which is when they
meet at the same level
28:26 at the same moment,
with the same intensity
28:29 there is actual
28:32 because they are meeting
at the same level.
28:38 Right?
28:39 That can be called a real,
true relationship.
28:47 Now, one's relationship with
another is based on memory.
28:57 Right?
28:58 Would you accept it?
29:01 On the various images,
pictures, conclusions
29:06 I have drawn about you
and you have drawn about me.
29:12 The various images
that I have about you
29:16 wife, husband, girl
or boy or friend and so on.
29:21 So there is always
29:25 Right?
29:27 This is simple, this is normal,
this is actually what goes on.
29:33 When one is married or lives
with a girl or a boy
29:38 every incident, every word,
every action creates an image - no?
29:49 Are we clear on this point?
29:52 Don't agree with me please
29:53 I am not trying to persuade
you to anything
29:56 but actually you can
see it for yourself.
30:01 A word is registered,
if it is pleasant you purr
30:04 it is nice, if it is unpleasant
you immediately shrink from it
30:09 and that creates an image.
30:11 The pleasure creates
an image, the shrinking
30:14 the withdrawal
creates an image.
30:18 So our actual relationship
with each other is based on
30:25 various subtle forms of pictures,
images and conclusions.
30:34 That's right?
30:36 Now I am asking: when that
takes place what happens?
30:43 The man creates
the image about her
30:48 and she creates
an image about him.
30:51 Whether in the office,
whether in the field, or anywhere
30:58 this relationship is essentially
based on this formation of images.
31:05 Right?
31:08 This is a fact, isn't it?
Can we go on from there.
31:13 Q: Yes.
K: Then what takes place?
31:18 You have an image about her
and she has an image about you
31:24 doesn't matter where
it is, in the office
31:27 in the factory,
in the field, in every way
31:31 labour, there is this
image-making all the time.
31:37 So when there is
an image like that
31:40 she has and you have,
then in there there is division
31:47 and then the whole
conflict begins.
31:54 Right?
31:55 Where there is division
31:58 between two images
there must be conflict.
32:02 Right?
32:06 Q: Why has image become
so important to us?
32:09 K: We will go into it, madame.
32:11 First go into it step
by step, not say 'Why'
32:16 have you got this image
about your brother, your sister
32:20 your husband, your wife,
your father, whatever it is?
32:26 Then see when
there is this image
32:29 there is certainly
a division:
32:34 the Jew and the Arab,
the Hindu, the Muslim
32:36 the Christian, the Communist
- you follow?
32:39 it is the same phenomena.
32:42 Right?
32:45 When that takes place there
must be fundamentally conflict.
32:56 The husband or the boy or
the girl may go off to work
33:04 and there he has created
images about himself:
33:07 his position, his worth, his
competition and all the rest of it
33:12 comes home and says,
'Darling how are you?'
33:16 and again he has got
his image and she has hers.
33:20 So there is conflict.
33:24 So it is a basic law
33:28 that where there is division between
people there must be conflict.
33:33 Full stop. Right?
33:37 The man may say to the woman
33:40 or the woman may say
to the man 'I love you'
33:43 but that may merely
be sensory love
33:49 sexual love but basically
they are not related at all.
33:56 They may wear rings
and hug each other
33:59 and sleep in the same bed
and live in the same house
34:02 but basically he is
pursuing his ambitions
34:05 his greed, all the rest of it,
and she also.
34:10 Right?
34:12 So basically they never
meet at the same level
34:17 at the same time,
with the same intensity.
34:21 Cannot.
34:24 Right?
34:26 Do we see this?
34:27 not accept the words that are spoken
by the speaker, that is worthless.
34:34 Actually this is
so in daily life.
34:41 And then we can say to
each other, 'I love you.
34:43 You are so beautiful'
- you are this and you are that
34:47 'put more colour on
your hair' (laughter)
34:49 you know, play
with all that kind of stuff.
34:57 Now why do we
create these images?
35:14 Why do you create an image
about your girl or your wife
35:18 or your husband,
or your boy, why?
35:24 Q: I think it is survival.
K: Survival?
35:29 Q: I think it is through fear.
35:32 Basically because you didn't
look at something you feared.
35:35 K: He says that it is survival.
35:37 Q: Isn't to guard one's ego.
35:40 One doesn't want
to be intruded on.
35:43 One doesn't want someone close,
one's frightened to lose one's ego.
35:47 K: Oh!
35:48 Is that so?
Q: I don't know.
35:51 K: (Laughs)
What sir?
35:55 Q: Because we don't see
the whole of the fact.
35:59 K: How can I see the whole,
if that is what you are saying
36:03 the whole beauty
of relationship
36:07 the whole nature
of love and all that
36:12 when we are so concerned about our
beastly little selves all the time?
36:22 Q: Isn't it because we are
registering all the time as well?
36:27 K: No, madame we have
been through all that
36:29 I want to forget
the registration.
36:31 Look at it anew.
36:35 Why do I, or why does one
create an image about another?
36:41 Why do you create an image
about the speaker? (Laughs)
36:49 Q: It is lack of attention.
36:51 K: Just go into it sir.
36:53 Why do you create an
image about your girl
36:55 or your husband,
boy and all that, why?
36:58 Q: To remember.
Q: To be dependent.
36:59 Q: Because it helps us.
37:01 K: Do look at it
before you answer.
37:03 See what you do first.
37:05 If I may gently suggest,
see the fact of it first
37:11 not say well,
this is it, this is that.
37:13 Just see if it is so.
37:17 Q: We want to be recognised
in some way or another.
37:26 Q: Isn't it because I'd like to know
what is going to happen tomorrow.
37:32 K: Do look at it sir.
37:36 You are married, you have got
a girl, or a boy, a husband.
37:43 This image-making goes on.
37:46 And I am asking why.
37:49 Take time
- a little. Please.
37:52 You don't know, I don't
know, let's find out.
37:57 Q: It is very pleasant
to have an image.
38:01 It is possession.
K: Is it?
38:05 Is it very pleasant
to have an image?
38:07 Q: It is very gratifying.
38:09 K: Is it very pleasant
to have an image?
38:13 Please sir
- an image?
38:15 Q: Image is a dirty word.
K: All right.
38:18 I won't use the word image
- use some other word.
38:22 Q: Fantasy.
38:24 Q: With familiarity
- we take things for granted
38:26 we are at all times preoccupied
rather then attentive.
38:34 K: I want to find out
38:36 why I create the image
about my wife - if I have one.
38:43 Is it habit?
38:51 Is it convenient?
38:58 Is it immemorial conditioning?
39:05 Is it traditional
that I do this
39:11 brought over from the genes
and so on and so on
39:15 that instinctively
I make an image about you?
39:21 Q: Does it matter why?
K: Find out.
39:25 So I am saying is it this tremendous
habit in which we live?
39:33 Q: No.
It is influence.
39:42 K: Yes sir. Include that,
include that. Influence.
39:49 One is so accustomed
to being influenced
39:53 which is environment
and all the rest of it.
39:56 So I say, is it habit
39:58 is it a tradition that has been
handed down, unconsciously
40:04 from race to race,
from generation to generation?
40:10 Is it a thing which I have
accepted as my arm
40:16 as I accept a leg,
it is part of me?
40:21 Q: Sir, does that really answer
the question why, though.
40:24 That is just saying that
we do have an image
40:27 but why do we have an image?
40:30 K: I am going into that sir.
40:32 Q: People, please,
follow the speaker, don't ask.
40:36 K: Comment, madame?
40:41 Q: I think it is a continuation
of the conditioning
40:45 that we ourselves
have received.
40:49 K: It is part of
our conditioning
40:52 inherited from father
to son and so on, so on
40:56 generation after generation.
40:59 So just let's find out.
41:02 So put all this together
41:04 habit,
immemorial tradition
41:12 desire for a sense of nearness
and yet withdrawal - all that.
41:23 Is that why we do it?
Q: Security.
41:27 K: Do look at it, take a second,
darling, please take a second.
41:37 Or is it that we want to
be certain of the girl
41:42 or the boy, the husband,
certain of her?
41:46 Certain to possess her,
it is mine and not yours.
41:54 All that is involved in it.
42:01 Desire for certainty
- it is my wife, my girl
42:07 my boy, my husband,
I am sure.
42:19 That is, it gives me certainty
in my relationship with another.
42:25 I know my wife
- which is the most absurd statement.
42:34 It gives me a feeling
that I possess something
42:42 and I am sure
of that possession.
42:45 So habit, tradition, a thousand,
million years of tradition
42:54 carried from generation
to generation to generation.
42:58 Then the desire to possess
43:03 to be dominated
43:06 love to be possessed
and love to be dominated
43:09 a neurotic state
43:12 and the desire to be certain:
43:15 it is my house,
my table, my pen, my wife.
43:22 Right?
43:29 What do you say to all this?
43:31 Q: We should be free of all that.
43:39 K: We should be, or we are?
43:42 Q: We should be.
K: Oh!
43:46 I should be on the top of the Himalayas,
but I am not! (Laughter)
43:53 Q: How can I recognise?
43:55 K: How can we
talk over together
43:59 if we are not both moving
in the same direction!
44:03 Please.
44:07 The 'should be'
is non-existent
44:10 'what is' is the only fact.
44:12 Q: Can one not
accept this state
44:17 K: Why should I
you see, you see I can't
44:21 Q: by understanding it?
K: No, madame we are doing it.
44:25 We are doing it step by
step, going into this.
44:32 I am certain about my name,
I am certain about my form
44:39 physical form, I am certain
I am qualified mechanically
44:44 or a scientist, or professor
- I am certain, it's my profession
44:53 my career as a military,
or navy, or a doctor
44:58 it is my career,
and I am certain.
45:01 So I want to be certain
in my relationship - no?
45:10 And when that
certainty is shaken
45:14 then begins the trouble
- ends up in divorce
45:19 or a separation, or whatever
you like to call it.
45:24 So these are the factors.
45:26 That we create these images
in order to be sure, certain
45:33 in order to possess
and in that possession
45:37 feel the power, the pleasure,
the strength of that possession.
45:46 And there is this inherited
a thousand million years
45:52 or a million years
of man's desire
45:57 to hold somebody and not
let go, and so on, so on.
46:01 These are the factors in daily life
- no?
46:06 Q: So that implies something
is just fixed, doesn't it?
46:09 K: Yes sir.
Q: We also make use
46:11 K: That is right.
I want to be certain.
46:13 I want to be sure when I come
back from the office she is there.
46:22 And when she comes
back from the office
46:24 she wants to be quite sure
I will turn up too! (Laughter)
46:30 This is the game we have been playing
infinitely, in varieties of ways.
46:36 Q: Why do we need the certainty?
46:38 K: We are going to go into that.
Go slowly sir.
46:43 Q: I am afraid I lose control.
46:47 K: You are afraid to
lose control over her?
46:51 I hope your wife is there!
47:05 Q: (Inaudible)
47:08 K: Look sir, we are talking about
something so tremendously serious.
47:22 Whether it is possible,
knowing this
47:25 knowing these are facts,
not imagination, not ideas
47:30 not some conclusions
which you have got because
47:33 I have talked about it
but these are daily facts.
47:38 Now the question is:
47:42 in that there is no
possibility of relationship.
47:46 You may sleep together,
you may hold hands together
47:49 do all kinds of
things together
47:52 but actually there
is no relationship.
47:56 That is a fact.
47:59 And we don't want
to acknowledge it.
48:04 Because the moment you
acknowledge it then begins doubt
48:10 you've frightened,
nervous and all that begins.
48:15 Now, please just listen.
48:20 Now, can I learn about myself
in my relationship with another?
48:28 That is the question we began with,
that is the question that was put.
48:34 In that relationship I
can observe my reactions.
48:40 Right?
48:44 I like and I don't like.
48:46 She said a nasty word,
he was so pleasant, and so on
48:49 my reactions I can watch.
48:52 Those reactions are
myself, aren't they?
48:56 They are not separate from me
48:58 both sensory as well as nervous,
psychological responses.
49:07 Right?
49:10 I am learning about myself
tremendously as I go along
49:13 I have seen, oh,
infinitely what I am doing
49:23 what I have done, what I am
doing, what I will do tomorrow
49:27 if I continue this mechanistic
way of behaviour.
49:32 Right?
49:36 And death comes and you say,
'Darling, I am leaving you'
49:39 She feels terribly lonely,
miserable, unhappy, tears
49:44 finds out suddenly she is
left alone, or he is left alone.
49:49 And then he can't face it, he
goes off to some entertainment
49:53 or goes off with
another woman, or boy
49:55 or whatever it is, or becomes
tremendously religious. (Laughter)
50:11 What a game we are
playing with each other.
50:15 Right sir?
50:19 So I see this is a fact.
50:23 I have learnt a tremendous
lot about myself
50:27 in my relationship
with another.
50:32 Then the factor arises:
can this image-making stop?
50:38 You understand my question?
50:44 Can this momentum of the past
50:48 of all that tremendous
50:51 with tremendous
volume behind it
50:54 like a river with a great
volume of water rushing
51:04 can all this image-making
51:12 desire for all that end,
without a single conflict?
51:18 You understand my question?
51:24 Are you interested in this?
Q: Yes.
51:28 K: What will you pay for it?
51:33 That is all you can do.
51:35 By paying something you
think you will get it.
51:43 Now how can this
mechanism of image-making
51:51 not just image-making,
the desire for certainty
51:54 the tradition, the whole
structure of that, can that end?
52:01 Right?
52:03 Are you asking that question?
52:05 Or am I asking, and (laughs)
putting my question onto you?
52:17 If you put that
question to yourself
52:22 do you say, 'I don't know
therefore I will find out'?
52:30 Or you are already
struggling to find out?
52:41 How can this image-making
come to an end.
52:48 Which means the ending
of registration
53:00 not to register a word
that she or he says
53:06 the sneer, the insult,
the nagging
53:10 all that,
not to register at all.
53:18 Is that possible?
53:28 Do you understand my question?
53:30 Please don't go off
to sleep or some
53:33 I am asking this question,
you have to answer it.
53:38 Q: No, it is not possible.
I don't find it possible.
53:41 K: The lady says
it is not possible
53:43 therefore
she has shut the door.
53:46 Q: No, I haven't shut the door,
but I find it impossible.
53:48 K: Ah, the moment you
say it is impossible
53:50 it is not possible, or it
is possible you have shut the door.
53:56 It is like a man saying
'I can't do it' - finished.
54:03 I am sure each of us can do it.
54:08 I am certain, clear
54:10 if you put your heart and
your mind into this question.
54:23 When the wife or the girl,
or the man or the husband
54:26 says to you, 'You are
rather stupid this morning'
54:32 must you register that
54:36 react to the word,
to his feeling
54:42 and watch your own reactions
to the word and his feeling.
54:47 You follow?
54:48 Can you watch
all this instantly?
54:58 Or he says, 'You look very nice this
morning' and you You follow?
55:09 Go into it sir.
55:16 Not to register at all.
55:23 Now is this possible?
55:25 Please we are talking about
55:29 learning about oneself
in relationship.
55:35 And we see why we
create this image and so on
55:41 and therefore there is no
actual relationship at all.
55:46 There may be
physical relationship.
55:48 Psychologically, obviously
you are totally divided.
55:54 How can you be related and love
another if you are ambitious?
56:01 You can't.
56:05 Or competitive, or this or that.
56:09 So you have learnt
a tremendous lot
56:12 in enquiring
into this relationship.
56:16 You have come to
the point now when we say:
56:19 is this possible, to hear
the word, not shut off
56:26 hear the word, see
the meaning of the word
56:30 the significance
of the word
56:33 the expression on the face of
the man or the woman who says it
56:38 and your own reaction to all that,
can you be aware of all that?
56:47 Q: Sir, it seems that we
are continually getting
56:49 into this difficulty at this
point of saying I don't know.
56:54 Could we look at that and
maybe it is the mechanism
56:57 that builds the images that
doesn't want to say 'I don't know'.
57:02 It doesn't like
the idea of saying it.
57:04 K: No, don't keep on repeating,
'I don't know'
57:06 then you are stuck.
Q: Yes.
57:08 K: But we started out by
saying we create these images
57:12 why we create
these images is fairly clear.
57:16 And we said, the next question
is: can this image-making stop?
57:20 Then I can say, 'I don't know'.
57:24 Right?
57:25 Because then your mind when you say
you don't know is tremendously alert.
57:30 Q: So one has to be concerned
to end the images.
57:32 K: Yes.
57:33 You are concerned to find out
whether the image-making can stop.
57:40 And you say it is not possible,
or it is possible, you are stuck.
57:45 But when you say
'I don't know, but I am moving'.
57:47 When I say 'I don't know',
I am not static.
57:50 I am moving, I am tremendously
active and full of energy to find out.
58:00 I am not transmitting my energy to
you, you are doing it yourself, please.
58:06 That is a danger.
58:11 So, is this possible?
58:17 Which means to listen
and not to register.
58:24 Q: Sometimes you are paralysed.
58:27 K: No, there is no
paralysis madame.
58:30 You can't paralyse
when your relationship
58:33 with another is so
tremendously important.
58:36 All life is relationship.
58:40 Not just you and me, it's a
58:43 not only you and me,
it is a global problem.
58:48 So we have to meet it
globally, not just
58:51 'Oh, I love my wife'
- you follow?
58:53 you and me,
that is too little affair.
58:56 When you understand
the global issue
58:58 then you will understand
the little issue.
59:01 But if you start
with the little issue
59:02 you won't understand
the global thing
59:06 global in the sense,
the enormity of it.
59:11 It concerns every human
being wherever he may be.
59:18 So I say
59:22 now can I listen
to the word
59:29 see the expression,
the gesture
59:33 the contempt
59:37 the arrogance and so on,
on the face of the other
59:41 and listen to it
without any reaction?
59:49 So now we will have to find
out what you mean by listening.
59:56 Are we interested in this?
59:57 Can we go on?
1:00:00 No, please I can
go on, but you see
1:00:03 I have spent my life from
the age of fifteen at this.
1:00:07 Right?
1:00:08 So please, spend also
an hour with this.
1:00:18 Can I listen.
1:00:19 Therefore what does
it mean to listen?
1:00:26 Do you ever listen?
1:00:29 Are you listening now?
1:00:33 Please, you understand?
1:00:34 Are you listening
to what I am saying?
1:00:36 No, I am not sure.
1:00:38 Or you are listening
to a conclusion
1:00:41 which you have
made about yourself?
1:00:45 Or in listening you have
already drawn a conclusion?
1:00:50 Or you have abstracted
from listening an idea
1:00:57 and pursuing that idea?
1:00:59 Therefore you are not
actually listening.
1:01:07 So are we listening now?
1:01:10 That means you are listening without
a single movement of thought
1:01:19 because you are so tremendously
concerned about this.
1:01:24 If you are not well
1:01:27 then you won't listen.
1:01:29 If you are deeply,
profoundly concerned about this
1:01:34 then you will instinctively,
naturally listen.
1:01:42 And so are you listening
from your experience
1:01:54 are you listening
to the word
1:01:58 and not to the content
of the word
1:02:01 or are you listening, making an
abstraction of what you are hearing
1:02:06 into an idea and say,
'Yes, I have got it'?
1:02:10 Which means then that you are
listening without any movement
1:02:15 any movement of thought,
any movement of intention.
1:02:19 Just listening.
1:02:26 If that is so
1:02:29 carefully please hear
what I have to say
1:02:31 if you can so listen
when the boy or the girl
1:02:36 or the wife, can you listen
to that in the same way?
1:02:43 You understand my question?
You are finished.
1:02:48 It is so terribly simple if you
capture the simplicity of it.
1:02:54 But intellectually we make
a such a mess of everything.
1:03:01 So if there is
the act of listening
1:03:08 then there is
no registration.
1:03:17 The other day after the talk,
one of the talks
1:03:21 a man came up to me and said
'What a marvellous talk that was.
1:03:25 Oh, it was excellent.
It feels I have got it all'
1:03:33 I listened to it very carefully.
1:03:39 I have been told
this for 50 years
1:03:44 and if I keep on registering
how marvellous it is
1:03:48 I would be a cuckoo!
1:03:54 So can you please find out?
1:03:58 To listen to somebody
saying nasty things
1:04:03 or pleasurable things, so completely
that there is no registration.
1:04:12 Which means can you be so
attentive at the moment
1:04:16 the word is said that there
is no centre which records?
1:04:25 You understand my question?
1:04:27 Have you ever been attentive?
1:04:33 Attentive in the sense,
giving all your attention
1:04:37 all your energy, your heart,
your mind, everything you have.
1:04:45 When you do that
there is no 'me'
1:04:48 from which you are attentive,
there is only attention.
1:04:51 Right?
1:04:53 In that attention
there is no recording.
1:04:57 It is only when
there is inattention
1:05:00 there is the centre
which records.
1:05:03 Got it?
1:05:06 You've understood?
1:05:08 Q: So, there is no distraction.
K: No.
1:05:12 Sir, there is no such
thing as distraction.
1:05:21 Please understand this.
1:05:24 There is no such
thing as distraction.
1:05:27 You want to pay
attention to that
1:05:31 and you are distracted
as one generally is.
1:05:34 Which means what?
1:05:35 You are not paying attention
1:05:37 therefore there
is no distraction.
1:05:43 So realise that you are not
attentive and therefore distraction.
1:05:49 The moment you are aware
that you are inattentive
1:05:51 you are already attentive.
1:05:53 Capture this, sir!
1:05:54 There is no effort
necessary in this.
1:05:59 So it is possible not
to register at all
1:06:05 when the wife says something
pleasant or unpleasant
1:06:08 or a friend or a boy or a girl
or a boy at the office, labour.
1:06:16 Can you live that way?
1:06:18 Not for one day
or a few minutes
1:06:21 can you live the entirety
of your life that way?
1:06:28 Q: Regardless of your age.
1:06:38 K: Regardless of my age,
or your age? (Laughter)
1:06:43 I don't understand this.
1:06:48 Q: Excuse me sir.
1:06:50 When I am attentive in this
way of which you speak
1:06:54 is the attention
limited to the thing
1:06:59 to which I am attentive?
K: No.
1:07:01 Q: Or identified with.
K: No.
1:07:03 Attention is attention,
not limited to this or to that.
1:07:07 I am attentive.
1:07:11 There is attention.
1:07:13 Not tension.
1:07:16 When you are attentive
there is no tension.
1:07:24 Now wait a minute, now wait
a minute, just look at it:
1:07:28 the question was
about learning
1:07:35 and can one learn about
oneself through relationship.
1:07:39 We went into the whole
thing step by step
1:07:43 logically, reasonably,
1:07:47 Now, just a minute,
listen to this.
1:07:48 We went into it very,
very carefully, in detail.
1:07:52 Now can you observe this
whole thing as a whole
1:07:58 not broken up little pieces.
1:08:01 You understand my question?
1:08:04 Can you have perception of
the entirety of the structure?
1:08:13 We have dealt bit by bit, fragment
by fragment, or piece by piece.
1:08:25 That means nothing personally
to me, because that's
1:08:29 but if you capture
the whole thing
1:08:32 then from that
you can work details.
1:08:34 But you cannot through
details work to the whole.
1:08:40 Now can you after an hour
and 20 minutes, or 10 minutes
1:08:47 or a quarter, can you observe
this whole phenomenon
1:08:52 of registration, learning,
relationship as a whole?
1:08:59 I mean by whole having a deep
insight into the whole thing
1:09:09 instantly.
1:09:14 You see we are not used to that.
1:09:16 We are always from
one thing to another
1:09:24 from one fragment
to another fragment
1:09:29 from one broken
piece to another
1:09:31 and so gradually
build up the whole.
1:09:35 We think we have
built up the whole.
1:09:38 But the whole is not this.
1:09:42 The whole is the perception of
the whole structure and beyond.
1:09:50 Then you can be
terribly logical.
1:10:01 Q: And beyond the structure you said.
K: Oh, of course.
1:10:06 The structure is
very, very fragile.
1:10:13 Q: Is the attention
including the structure
1:10:18 and going beyond
the structure?
1:10:20 K: Yes sir, when we are attentive
the structure is non-existent.
1:10:28 You understand?
You are missing all this.
1:10:31 When you are totally attentive
there is no structure.
1:10:36 Right?
1:10:37 That attention is meeting
the person at the same level
1:10:44 at the same time,
with the same intensity
1:10:47 the other may not, that is
indifferent, that is irrelevant.
1:10:52 Your mind is meeting
that totally.
1:10:59 Then begins the objection
on the other person
1:11:05 saying
'You are indifferent to me,'
1:11:07 you are this,
you are that, begins.
1:11:10 You are not the cause
- you understand?
1:11:15 I wonder if you see all this!
1:11:18 Q: What is being attentive?
K: I have explained madame.
1:11:23 You are not attentive to something,
about something
1:11:27 or for something,
you are just attentive.
1:11:29 Q: Who, what is it that
is being attentive?
1:11:32 K: There is no you to be attentive,
I have explained that.
1:11:36 There is only attention.
1:11:38 Q: And there isn't
another I there?
1:11:40 K: No, no, please. See you
are going off to something.
1:11:47 So are we, at the end of an hour
and a quarter - free of the images?
1:11:56 If you are not you
haven't been listening
1:12:00 and nobody can
force you to listen.
1:12:05 It is up to you.
1:12:09 If you want the present
kind of relationship
1:12:12 with each other and so with
humanity, globally that way
1:12:17 it is up to you
1:12:22 but if you want
to find out
1:12:24 a way of living
totally differently
1:12:26 it is also up to you but you
have to listen to everything
1:12:31 in yourself, in other
- you follow?
1:12:38 I think that is enough
this morning, isn't it?
1:12:41 Q: Sir, I don't see how
the structure disappears
1:12:43 I am sorry, I
don't understand it.
1:12:45 How does the structure disappear
when I am attentive to it?
1:12:50 What makes the
1:12:52 K: Sir, I will tell
you, I'll tell you.
1:12:54 The structure exists with all
that we mean by structure
1:12:59 which is the desire
for certainty
1:13:03 habit, centuries of
tradition and so on
1:13:09 all that is the structure,
the picture, the image
1:13:14 which we have
made about another.
1:13:17 When we are totally attentive
there is no structure
1:13:24 and therefore you are
there is no structure
1:13:27 therefore you are beyond
everything, the image-making.
1:13:31 You just try one thing.
1:13:34 Just for fun.
1:13:37 Next time your wife, your
husband, your girl or boy
1:13:40 says something pleasant
or unpleasant, watch it
1:13:45 just for that
second watch it
1:13:50 be attentive for
that single moment
1:13:57 and then you will see whether
you are registering or not.
1:14:00 You see that is what I
mean, find out, try it
1:14:04 otherwise you
will never find out.
1:14:08 Finished.
1:14:12 Q: It seems to me there
is contradiction
1:14:15 how can we watch it and be
one with it at the same time?
1:14:20 For god's sake explain that.
K: I don't quite follow sir.
1:14:23 Q: How can we be fear and
watch fear at the same time?
1:14:31 K: No, we are going
off into something sir.
1:14:34 I am saying
1:14:38 that you have listened
for an hour
1:14:41 right sir?
- an hour and a quarter.
1:14:45 You have realised, understood
1:14:47 the mechanistic way of learning
and a different way. Right?
1:14:55 And also whether one can learn
about oneself through relationship.
1:15:00 We went into that more or less.
1:15:04 Now I am asking: can you be aware
of this whole structure first?
1:15:10 Right?
1:15:12 Be aware of it as you
are aware of the colour
1:15:14 of the dress of the person
sitting next to you.
1:15:20 Then be aware that you
are separate from that
1:15:26 which is absurd,
therefore in that awareness
1:15:29 you realise there is no division
- right? - I am going on.
1:15:35 Right?
1:15:36 And so in that awareness
where there is no division
1:15:40 there begins to be
a sense of great attention.
1:15:44 In that attention
1:15:46 which is not yours or another's,
it is just attention.
1:15:51 In that attention, the whole
structure is non-existent
1:15:57 and I say from
that when your wife
1:16:01 or a girl, or a boy
says something to you
1:16:05 be attentive at that moment
and see what happens.