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BR78DSS1.4 - Can you learn about yourself totally independently from others?
Brockwood Park, UK - 28 May 1978
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.4



0:21 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about this morning?
0:43 Questioner: I was wondering if we could discuss learning and leisure.
0:48 K: Learning?

Q: Learning and leisure.
0:51 K: Leisure.
1:00 Shall we begin with that and go into something else?
1:10 Let's begin with that. Why do you want to learn? Why does anybody want to learn about anything?
1:29 Go on, sir, it is a discussion and as we go along, we will go into other matters, but what is this urge to learn, and why is it so important in one's life?
1:56 In ancient India, if I remember rightly, knowledge was tremendously important.
2:09 And apparently, in the modern world it is becoming more and more difficult and the urge to learn is getting less and less.
2:23 And why is it that human beings give such importance to learning?
2:35 Is it to know the world, the world about us, nature, the heavens, the stars, the various elements, to learn about the moon, the distance, whether the universe is expanding or contracting, and so on.
3:02 Apparently, we are learning a great deal about things outside of us – how to live under the sea, go to the moon, and the immense advancement in technology, and so on – all outward, learning about things around us, the world around us.
3:34 And also learning about our relationships with society and with ourselves.
3:42 Would you agree? Would you say that is part of our learning?
3:47 Q: Isn't part of it also simply an innocent exploration, that it is fun to learn about things?
3:59 K: Yes. About unknown things. About the known, observable things and also learn about unknown things – what happens after death, if there is... what is it?
4:20 life after death, and so on.
4:27 Whether one can read other people's thoughts, and before we read other people's thoughts, we don't know how to read our own thoughts.
4:39 We want to learn about what other people think, and so on. And also, about occultism, things that are hidden – levitation, and so on, all the hidden powers of man.
5:05 Right? And learn about chemistry, mathematics, history, geography, biology, physics, and so on.
5:21 There is very little attempt, as far as I can see, I may be mistaken, very little learning about oneself.
5:34 Would you say that?
5:37 Q: Why should someone want to learn about themselves?
5:41 K: Why do you want to learn about outward things?
5:45 Q: For security.
5:48 K: Is it because one has to live with the environment, and the more you know about it the better you can live, so you study, learn about the external, environmental world, hoping thereby to conquer the world around us and live better.
6:14 Q: But in that, the converse also applies, that if you learn about the self then you have to live with the self.
6:21 K: Yes, that is what I am saying. Why do we give so much importance to things outside of us – and we see why we do it – and why don't we also give importance to learn about ourselves?
6:42 You understand my question? Why? Why this neglect, indifference about oneself, the complexities of oneself, and only learn about the outer existence?
7:05 The more we give importance to the understanding of the outer world – the more shallow, apparently, we become.
7:18 And when there is any great trouble in our lives, those who are studying only the outer have a dreadful time.
7:32 I don't know if you have noticed it. Would you say that?

Q: Yes.
7:40 K: The people who are worldly, in the sense which we are using – 'worldly' means concerned with outward things, 'extravert' it used to be called – and those people, when there is some catastrophe in their personal life, apparently, they go to pieces, take to drink, various forms of disease, etc.
8:11 Why do we neglect something which is equally important as the outer, to learn about ourselves?
8:25 Does it mean the outer is different from the inner? You understand my question?
8:34 Q: Don't we assume that we already know the inner?
8:39 K: Do we know ourselves? We may assume a lot of things. I may assume I know how to go to the moon, but that assumption has little validity, little value.
8:53 But I am asking, is the outer different from our inner life?
9:01 Inner attitudes, anxieties, fears, pleasures, all the inward movement.
9:12 Why do we differentiate and divide the outer and the inner?
9:21 You understand my question? No? You don't understand my question?
9:28 We are learning a great deal about the outward world and its facts.
9:35 About nature, about the whole thing. And the inner world, in ourselves – our complexities, our fears, etc., all that is going on within the skin, as it were – why is there this division, the outer and the inner?
10:03 Q: You mean that we don't look at the inner in the same way?
10:06 K: No, I am asking you, why is there this division, the outer and inner?
10:16 Is it easier, more profitable to know the outside world, the world about us – it is more profitable, more convenient, more observable, you can get facts and all the rest of it, but it is much more difficult to go inwardly, to find out.
10:47 So, as that has been very complex, much more difficult, we say, don't bother, let's go to the other.
10:56 Is that why we divide it?
11:00 Q: Perhaps we have been taught not to touch that – say, leave it alone. Perhaps we have been taught not to look at that at all. 'Leave it alone, don't investigate.'
11:14 K: You may have been taught to look at the other, but why haven't you also been taught to look inwardly?
11:21 Q: It might be dangerous.

K: Dangerous in what way?
11:25 Q: It might disturb things, it might upset things.
11:32 K: Will it?
11:39 Q: But when we look at the outer, Krishnaji, we are not really concerned deeply with learning about the outer either – we are only concerned with the superficial, in the outer.
11:51 K: Could we put the question differently? What is it that most of us, young and old, what is it that we want?
12:04 Not temporary gratification. I want some clothes, this or that – what is it that we want, deeply, all of us?
12:20 Comfort of the outer world? You understand my question? To live comfortably, to have money, to have power, to have position, to travel, have any amount of pleasure, sex, all that – outer – is that what we want?
12:43 And therefore give tremendous importance to that, because that is what we want.
13:00 You understand my question? Is that why we give importance to the outward things?
13:12 Because we want power, power over others, the power that gives one certain dominance, pleasure, authority, having great deal of power, or even a little power over somebody – you may have power over your wife – and so on.
13:37 Is that why we give importance, lay such emphasis on learning about the outward world?
13:47 Q: But we could also be interested in why do we want power.
13:52 K: No, then you are enquiring.

Q: Yes, why not?
13:58 K: The moment you ask, why do I want power? – you are already enquiring into oneself. But nobody asks that question. These people who have power, like the ministers and the governors and the totalitarians, the politburo, the dictatorships, they never ask, why do I want power, they say power is so enjoyable, you have money, position, trumpets and guns go off, all the rest of it.
14:30 The moment they ask, why do I want power? Then they begin to inquire into something in themselves. Those who are dictators, who are rulers, they never say, 'Why do I want power?'
14:47 They enjoy that which they have, that is all that matters to them. So, I am asking again, why do we divide these two, the inner and the outer?
15:03 The outer – one can see one wants power, position, money, freedom to travel, to express oneself, if you have a talent, to write a book or a poem, or make a sculpture, etc. – outer.
15:19 And do we want – 'want' in the deeper sense of that word, desire – to delve deeply into ourselves?
15:36 You understand my question now? Why? Do we want to learn about ourselves?
15:51 You know, you spend how many years in school, college, from the age of 5 or 7 you start, and go through school, college, and university – 20 or 25 years, learning about outward things.
16:13 And you never even give an hour to learn about yourself. See the imbalance of the two.
16:27 25 years to learn about the external things, about the universe, the world you live in, biology, history, mathematics and so on – 25 or 20 years – and not a day about yourself. Isn't it very odd?
16:57 You understand? It is an imbalance, it is not balanced.
17:11 Now, do you want to learn about yourself?
17:20 Or you are so caught up in the outer, the immediate pleasure, immediate sex, the immediate gratification that you are satisfied with that.
17:38 And how will you learn about yourself?
17:46 Who will teach you about yourself?
17:53 You can learn mathematics from another. There are books about mathematics the modern mathematics, the new mathematics, the old mathematics – you can read enormously about mathematics and learn a great deal about mathematics, but who will teach you about yourself?
18:21 Q: It is not obvious that there is anything to learn about oneself.
18:30 One thinks one means well...
18:33 K: I can't quite make it out. Sorry.
18:36 Q: It isn't clear that there is anything to be learned about ourselves.
18:41 K: Is there anything to be learned about yourself?
18:50 Then why are all the psychologists, the analysts, all writing volumes and volumes about yourself?
19:06 You understand? So, when one sees this imbalance, this lack of balance, which is the tremendous exaggeration and the inquiry and the pursuit of the external, and a very whispering, hesitating, anxious inquiry into oneself, it must lead to great disharmony.
19:43 Do you want to learn about yourself, and give equal importance?
19:54 Q: Krishnaji, even if we try to learn about ourselves, we tend to look at the image of ourselves.
20:02 K: No, we will find out what it means to learn about yourself. But you must give time to it. As you give time to learning mathematics, you must also give time to the inquiry.
20:22 Will you?
20:36 If you give time to learn about yourself, who will help you, who will teach you?
20:51 You understand my question? For mathematics, there is a professor, there is a teacher, he has studied, gone into it, spent years – PhD, MA, whatever it is.
21:07 Who will teach you about yourself? Can another teach you?
21:17 If he does, what happens? He is teaching from what he has learned about himself from books.
21:31 Right?
21:34 Q: Well, not necessarily.

K: Not necessarily. That means he has not only spent time learning about himself from books, from analysts, psychologists and so on, and he has a little experience of his own, a little bit, about himself, so he is translating or informing you what other people have said about yourself, and his own small inquiry into himself.
22:16 So, are you learning about yourself from others?
22:25 Or can you learn about yourself totally independently from others?
22:43 This leads, if you follow it very deeply, to what is a religious life.
22:53 Right? I may be jumping, I don't think I am because it is tied to that.
23:07 One may not see the link, the thread, from the inquiry, to the religious life.
23:19 From inquiring into oneself and spending time, and thereby discovering for oneself, is there a religious life at all?
23:43 First of all, I want to learn about myself, not through others, not through Freud, Jung and all the rest of those people, but I want to learn about myself.

Q: Won't you be thankful for hints?
24:11 K: They may give hints to me. But their hints will also be coloured by their own... by their own prejudices, by their own knowledge, their own learning.
24:27 Can we reject what others have said about me, about you, and being free of their knowledge, inquire into ourselves?
24:44 Q: But there might lie the difference we make between learning about the outside and inside world.
24:51 Where, when we learn about the outside, we are listening to what other people have to say...
24:56 K: That is a different matter.

Q: Not always, though.
24:59 K: Not always. Finish it. That is a different matter. There, you are acquiring knowledge. People are adding all the time, more and more and more, correcting, modifying, changing, but always adding.
25:19 Q: Sir, in the outer, there is what is called original research.
25:27 K: Yes, original research.
25:31 Q: It seems to me that you are suggesting that each individual needs to do original research on the inner.
25:38 K: I understand that, but will you research into yourself? Original research.
25:49 Is that very difficult?
25:56 Q: In a way.

K: Why?
25:58 Q: Because usually when you do some research on something, then you are the subject that is researching into the object.
26:09 K: So, you have to find out, learn how to research into yourself. You have to learn about it. You can't say, I will research.
26:17 Q: Of course. It is different, because you are the subject and the object at the same time.
26:23 K: We are going to find out. Don't make difficulties before we have started.
26:32 The first inquiry is, will you spend time, energy, interest, as you do in mathematics, history, whatever you are interested in outwardly.
26:48 Will you spend a great deal of time in this? And also, it may need no time at all. Both things are involved in it.
27:09 After all, the essence of religion is the abandonment of the self.
27:26 Q: Krishnaji, what do you mean by the religious life?
27:30 K: I have said so: the abandonment of the self.
27:44 That is the very nature and the structure of religion, in which the self, the me, is totally non-existent.
28:01 Therefore, I say to myself, I will spend time, energy, interest in finding out, learning about myself.
28:18 If I want to find out what is beyond the abandonment of the self, what is a truly religious life.
28:35 If you want to find out – I am not saying you should.
28:43 That is why I said, what is it you want? Whether you are grown up or a student here, what is it we are all wanting, craving, longing for?
29:00 I know, if you are a student here, or any kind of student, the immediate desire is to pass exams, the pressure of exams.
29:12 You say, for goodness sake, get through that. Or if you are very young and so on, you want pleasure. Or a little adolescent, sex and so on. So, the wanting, the desire changes its object as you grow.
29:37 When you are young you may want to be a dancer or whatever. If you have a talent, you want to be a musician. As you grow older, you might find a greater talent. So the object of your desire changes all the time, as you go along. Unless you have some outstanding quality or gift that gives you a certain definite line to pursue.
30:09 And they have their own danger, because then the instrument or the marble, becomes more important than their own life.
30:24 So, can one learn about oneself?
30:35 And do you want to spend time on it?
30:42 As you spend years on learning about the external world, won't you give a day, a month, a week to learn about yourself?
31:02 You see the monks all over the world, who say, we will abandon the world, and devote themselves to God or to Jesus or to Buddha, or whatever it is, thereby hoping to deny the self. You understand what I am saying?
31:30 You are following all this? But that denial of the self is really not a denial at all.
31:45 The self is identifying itself with something which it thinks is greater. I don't know if you follow this – do you? I don't know if you are interested in all this – are you? We can talk about something else if you are not interested. We are not a captive audience.
32:15 So, the monks have said – probably, deeply – that understanding oneself is such a complex, unnecessary thing, but if you give yourself over to Jesus, to Christ, to Buddha, etc., you forget yourself.
32:43 First see what the so-called religious people have done in the world.
32:50 Don't say, that is nonsense – see what they have done. They don't marry, they lead a celibate life, they have taken vows of humility, chastity, etc., and give themselves over to an idea, to an image, to a concept, and thereby hoping to forget themselves, entirely.
33:28 I believe I was told once, I have forgotten by whom, somebody who seemed to know symbols and their meaning, that the cross originally meant wipe out the 'I'.
33:48 You understand?
33:58 To understand oneself is equally important as to understand the world.
34:06 If you understand yourself, you can live harmoniously with the world. But if you don't understand yourself, you haven't learned, there is always battle between the inner and the outer.
34:21 Q: It is not clear, if I give myself to Buddha or Christ or somebody and forget myself, that I am not going to live in harmony.
34:29 I know that there are many examples throughout the world where religion has caused destruction and war.
34:41 K: Misery.
34:42 Q: But they are examples which don't necessarily refute the possibility.
34:48 K: I am questioning whether when you identify yourself with the Buddha, with Christ, or whatever, are you really denying, wiping away the self, or are you merely transferring the self to that image?
35:11 Q: It seems that when that happens, there is no learning taking place.
35:16 K: No, that is because they say learning about the self is useless, it is too complex, it is not worth it.
35:26 Whereas if you give yourself over, abandon yourself to the love of Jesus or Christ or Buddha, whatever it is, then you have forgotten yourself.
35:40 Is that so?

Q: No. You and I may say no, but the vast majority of monks throughout the world, so-called religious people, say that is the only way to do it.
36:03 Q: Isn't the essential thing that there needs to be learning about it?

K: Leave that for the moment.
36:17 Do you want to learn about yourself, any of you? Either the old or the young? Don't play with it, because it may be the most dangerous thing to learn about yourself.
36:42 It may upset your apple cart. You know what that means? Upset all your ideas, all your desires and wanting power – it may totally upset everything.
36:57 So, people say, keep away from that.
37:06 You may abandon your family, you may be extraordinarily free from all attachment, from all fear, from all anxiety.
37:34 Being attached, we say, for God's sake, don't touch that part, leave my little corner alone, let's talk about something else.
37:47 I want to learn about myself, but not my attachment, for God's sake, don't touch it, because it will upset my wife and my relationship, I don't want to create trouble in the family.
38:03 So, I say, I won't. You follow? Learning about oneself may be the most dangerous thing, dangerous, in the sense, to the world in which you live.
38:25 And that is probably why most people don't even bother to inquire about oneself.
38:35 Q: If it is so dangerous, why should I do it?
38:41 Q: Why should I do it?

K: Don't do it. Very simple.
38:50 Q: Can you see some reason to do it?

K: No, don't do it. Stick in the mud and carry on. That is why I said from the beginning, what is it you want?
39:08 Money, position, power, become a professor in some safe university, fame, politician? All outer.
39:30 Perhaps that is the safest thing to do, but it is really not safe there either – there are ten thousand people after one job.
39:43 Right?
39:50 Obviously. You may know mathematics extraordinarily well, or physics, studied, spent years.
40:02 Hundreds of others have done the same thing and they want that same job.
40:11 So, it is a constant, endless battle.
40:21 Q: Doesn't that burn you out inwardly?
40:25 K: Why should it burn you out?
40:27 Q: I think it does.

K: Wait, don't assume anything.
40:32 Q: Yes, okay.
40:34 K: You have already assumed you will burn yourself out.
40:38 Q: No, I haven't said that it will burn me out, but there are times when you have everything, you feel quite secure outwardly, but there is something missing.
40:50 K: That is what I am saying. You may have a butler, lovely house, marvellous furniture, everything you want and something, some incident, some accident happens, and you go to pieces. There is nothing to sustain you.
41:12 Therefore they say, love Christ, that will at least help you.
41:21 Which is still the outer.
41:28 So, if one wants to learn about oneself, one has to say, I am not going to learn through others about myself, through books, through philosophers, through psychologists, through analysts and so on, because what they tell me about myself is what they have learned from others and added to what they have learned.
41:58 So, I put that aside, because I see the reason, the logic, the sanity of it.
42:05 Then I say to myself, how am I going to learn about myself?
42:17 You understand my question? How am I going to learn? So I say, first of all, what is the self? You are interested in it, I hope. If not, we can talk about... I am not very good at talking about anything else. I will get off the platform, you come and sit here and talk about it.
42:45 So, as I am very interested in it, I have spent my life in it, I am very concerned about it, so I say, how am I to learn about myself?
43:00 So I inquire, what is learning, and what is the self?
43:08 What is learning about oneself?
43:16 Learning about oneself, does it mean acquiring knowledge about myself?
43:26 As I have acquired – please listen carefully, if you are interested – as I have learned about mathematics, which is accumulating knowledge, learning about myself, does it mean the same thing?
43:42 Accumulating knowledge about myself. You understand my question?
43:51 If I have accumulated knowledge about myself and with that knowledge I look at myself then I am looking at myself as I was.
44:11 I don't know if you follow this. So, I am not looking at myself. You understand this? Do you? I have learned a great deal about archaeology and I have accumulated knowledge about Egypt, ancient Egypt, and with that knowledge I become an Egyptologist, I have a position in a university, it gives me comfort, money, and helps me to further investigate into the ancient Egyptian kingdom.
45:03 You follow? There, it is very useful.
45:10 But does learning about myself mean accumulating knowledge about myself?
45:18 If it does, that very knowledge, will it become an impediment to further learning about myself? You get what I am saying?
45:29 Are you bored with it?
45:33 Q: Krishnaji, I think accumulating knowledge about ourselves is what we have been doing all along, anyway.
45:41 K: Are you? Are you accumulating knowledge about yourself? Or you are accumulating knowledge according to others?
45:54 To what a professor, some philosopher, some psychologist told you about yourself?
46:02 They have accumulated knowledge. Are you doing the same? If you are, then with that knowledge you observe yourself.
46:16 So, you are observing yourself who has accumulated knowledge.
46:25 You are not observing yourself. I wonder if you see this.
46:35 I observe I am angry.
46:42 That is part of myself. I have been angry, violent.
46:50 This morning I was very angry – I wasn't – I was very angry.
46:58 That anger has been registered in the brain and been named as 'anger'.
47:08 So, I have accumulated knowledge about anger. You are following this? Then with that knowledge, next time I am angry, what takes place? I identify that emotion, that reaction as anger, and strengthen that memory.
47:31 And with that memory I observe anger, next time. So, I continue this process. I never learn – please listen – I never learn about myself. I am learning about a reaction which I have called 'anger'. So, I may be that reaction.
48:03 The whole structure of 'me' may be a tremendous accumulation of reactions.
48:20 Reaction, which is my name, my form, my build, my face, my body, the height, the depth, and so on, the accumulated reactions, that I have been good, been bad, been angry, those are all reactions.
48:44 The reactions are also the words, the language I have used about myself.
48:54 So, the whole of 'me' is a bundle of reactions, which I can discover in my relationship with others.
49:09 Right? I am married or I have got a girlfriend, and I can discover in my relationship with her, how I act, what my reactions are: I am jealous, I am anxious, I dominate, I want her, I want this, I want that, I want sex – my reactions.
49:31 And those reactions is the centre around which the world is: 'me'.
49:43 No?
49:50 I want sex, etc. Right? You follow this? Shankar?

Q: Yes, sir.
50:09 K: Now, is it possible to abandon the whole nature and the structure of this reaction?
50:31 See how complex this is? You say in the middle of it, for God's sake, forget it, it is too complex, it is too boring, and I have got a family, I have got to earn a livelihood, I am occupied with being a lawyer.
50:55 For God's sake, it is too complex. You suddenly drop it and carry on.
51:08 So, if a man or woman who is really serious wants to find out what a religious life is, because religion has been one of the creative factors in life.
51:23 A new civilisation can only come into being when there is real religious spirit.
51:30 All civilisations or cultures are born out of religion, whether they are phoney or they are actual.
51:47 So, if there is creation, there must be inquiry to find out.
51:59 Can the self, this thing that has become so extraordinarily important – the self, the 'me', my desire, my want, my opinion, my longing, I want this, I don't what that, I want you to behave in a certain way – this constant assertion of the 'me'.
52:41 You see how dangerous it is?
52:53 If you want to learn about yourself, you have to give time.
53:02 Or, you instantly see it.
53:13 The very instant action is the total abandonment.
53:26 So, as that is rather – not difficult – it requires a great deal of penetration, a great deal of attention, passion, so, they say, my dear friend, practise, practise the abandonment of the self.
53:52 Right? You see the fallacy of it? Do this, sit cross-legged, meditate, don't have sex, you must take a vow, do this, don't do that, discipline yourself, control yourself, suppress yourself.
54:14 All that is the exaggeration of the reactions which is the 'me'.
54:25 I was talking once with a highly educated, European monk.
54:37 When we came to this point, he said, stop, that is enough. I have understood it, and we never met again.
54:51 So, will you spend time, energy, passion, to live a life in which there is no conflict whatsoever?
55:15 Which means an astonishing balance between the inner and the outer.
55:41 I think last year or the beginning of this year we talked about, is it possible to live a religious life married?
55:52 Were you all there? Some of you were here, I think, weren't you? Is it?
56:11 Is it possible to live a religious life, being tremendously attached – to my wife, to my daughter, to my belief, to my house, to my ideals, to my conclusions, to my desires?
56:36 Come on, work it out, think about it, go into it.
56:45 So one has to understand very deeply what one wants, what one craves.
56:57 I know when you are young, you crave lots of things – beauty, a good body, a nice face, lovely hair, position, sex.
57:13 As you evolve and grow, you get more and more attached to your body, more and more attached to ideas, more attached to a daughter, son, wife, husband, girl, whatever it is, and then you are caught.
57:30 I am not saying it is wrong or right, I am just pointing out. You will do whatever you want to do.
57:41 Then when you are caught, you say, my God, what am I to do?
57:48 I have responsibility. The tricks one plays upon oneself.
58:05 Learning about the world and the outer is a much harder life than to learn about oneself.
58:17 And when you have learned about yourself completely, it is the easiest way to live, the most extraordinarily intelligent way to live.
58:31 In this, there is no reward, in the other there is a reward.
58:53 Most of us are conditioned by reward and punishment.
59:03 It is very difficult to see for oneself an action in which there is neither reward or punishment.
59:20 Because both reward and punishment are reactions.
59:27 I see God, that is a reward for my misery.
59:46 So, at the end of this sermon, where are we?
59:57 Do you want to learn about yourself?
1:00:23 And if you want to, will you give time to it?
1:00:30 Or you have a sudden flash, the flash of insight, and the whole thing collapses. You understand?
1:01:05 Is that enough for this morning? Yes? Are you hungry?
1:01:30 Meditation is extraordinary harmony between the inner and the outer.
1:01:44 Therefore, when there is harmony, there is no division, as the outer or the inner.
1:01:58 Like a man who is in perfect health, he doesn't know he is healthy, he only knows when there is pain and disease.
1:02:17 Right.