Krishnamurti Subtitles

Is it possible never to be hurt?

Brockwood Park - 13 September 1978

Seminar 2

0:54 K: Shall we go on to talk over
together the thing
0:57 that we wished to talk about
this morning: relationship?
1:12 The word means
- please correct me -
1:23 from Latin, 'to refer to',
to look back.
1:32 I think that most of our
relationships are that.
1:41 And we are going
to talk over together
1:44 the whole significance
of relationship as it is,
1:50 and in the understanding
of what it is, actually,
1:53 go beyond
all the implications
1:59 of that narrow,
limited relationship
2:05 into something
wider and deeper.
2:06 That's what we are going
to talk over together.
2:11 So, what do we mean
by relationship?
2:16 Please, this is not a talk
by me, or a solo,
2:21 but please join all of us
together in this
2:24 because we are all involved in
some kind of relationship
2:30 - with a wife, a husband,
with a girl, a boy, with parents,
2:35 our relationship to society,
to nature, to the whole world,
2:43 our relationship to all the things
that are happening in the world,
2:47 the terrible things,
the violence,
2:50 and also the extraordinary
technological advancements,
2:54 and science, and engineering,
and so on.
2:57 So, not only the limited
relationship between two people
3:03 but also our relationship
with the whole world.
3:08 Have we any?
3:11 So will you start it?
3:17 Q: When you said
that the word, you understood it
3:22 in the dictionary means
'to refer back to'.
3:25 K: Referre, from Latin,
to look back to, to refer to.
3:29 Q: Are you of the opinion
that people generally,
3:33 this is how they relate
to other people,
3:35 they refer back to them?
3:36 But I don't quite understand
what you meant by that.
3:38 I think, you said
you feel people generally...
3:43 K: Let's begin, sir.
Forget what I have said.
3:46 What does relationship mean to you,
to each one of us?
3:57 I am married - suppose -
I have children,
4:03 what is my relationship
to my wife, to my children,
4:08 and what do I mean
by relationship?
4:15 Am I related to nature,
to the ecological world?
4:22 Am I related to what
is happening in Nicaragua,
4:27 between the Arab and the Jew,
the starvation, and so on?
4:32 So what is my relationship
with the most intimate
4:40 and the most, far,
4:51 We have to begin with the near,
the closest, and then work forward.
4:58 So if you are married,
if you have got a girlfriend,
5:00 or if you have no girlfriend,
5:04 what actually is
our relationship with another.
5:13 Q: We don't seem
to have any, that's all.
5:18 K: Please, investigate it.
5:20 Q: There is always a barrier there
whenever you meet anyone,
5:24 or a separation between
what is happening outside,
5:28 or in nature,
or in each one of us.
5:41 Q: I can see that with my family it is
a succession of trying all the time,
5:48 of shifting, and to a certain
extent with nature, just around,
5:58 but the farther issues,
6:00 I can see that it doesn't extend
to any extent, really.
6:06 K: Look, madame, relationship is one
of the most important things in life.
6:11 Relationship
between me and another,
6:16 me with many others,
6:18 which creates society.
6:22 And in my relationship
with another there is always tension,
6:28 there is always
a sense of division,
6:31 and therefore conflict,
and a sense of guilt,
6:37 a sense of possession,
a sense of responsibility,
6:39 a sense of protection
- all that is involved in it,
6:44 not only with the children
but with each other.
6:51 And that, apparently,
from the ancient of times,
6:56 it goes on that way.
6:58 Constant conflict
between you and me
7:03 - not you and me,
you know what I mean -
7:05 my wife and myself,
or with another.
7:10 Why do we go on that way?
7:15 Why do we live that way?
7:17 What is right or wrong in our
relationships with each other?
7:24 I want to begin the closest and
gradually work to the world about us,
7:34 not only in England but in India,
Japan, the whole world.
7:39 So I must begin near
to go far.
7:45 I see, as it is now,
without exaggeration,
7:52 without giving false values, it is
a constant struggle, constant pain,
8:00 constant tension, a division.
8:06 If we accept that as being normal
then it's all right,
8:11 but if one doesn't accept it
as being normal, healthy,
8:18 then we have to proceed to find out
whether it is possible
8:22 to end that kind
of relationship,
8:24 in which there is no shadow
of conflict with each other.
8:33 Is that possible?
8:35 What are the implications
if it is possible,
8:39 and whether one can actually,
in daily life, do it.
8:44 That's the issue we are going
to talk about this morning.
8:51 Q: I have a relationship
with another in those moments
8:56 when I am aware of them and
aware of myself - in that moment.
9:04 But as I approach it, I feel fear,
and either pain or a threat.
9:13 K: That's right, sir. So all that is
implied - pain, attachment, jealousy,
9:18 anxiety, fear, and the great
sexual pleasure -
9:24 the whole of that is implied
in our daily relationship.
9:32 Why do we accept it?
Why don't we question it?
9:36 That's what we are here for.
9:39 Let me again repeat: we are here,
this gathering, the group of us,
9:45 are supposed to be serious people,
with a serious intention
9:49 to understand our problems
and resolve them,
9:53 not in ten years time,
but here, now.
9:58 Otherwise it is not worth
talking about it,
10:01 it becomes theoretical
and nonsensical.
10:05 Personally, I am not interested
in that kind of stuff.
10:10 If I am married, if I have
a problem of that kind,
10:14 I want to resolve it
10:16 That may be my peculiar tendency,
or my way of looking at it,
10:25 I don't want to carry
a problem overnight,
10:30 specially a psychological problem,
which is relationship with another.
10:35 Either I say, that's normal,
I can't help it living that way
10:40 and, for the rest
of my life, it is that.
10:44 I may change wives,
I may change husbands,
10:47 but the same pattern is repeated
over and over again.
10:54 And as I am a serious man
I want to find out if it can end,
10:59 what is the manner
of ending it,
11:01 and a way of living
in which there is no conflict at all.
11:06 That's what I want
to find out.
11:10 At least that's what we are
gathered here, to do that.
11:15 Q: We then overlook the original
meaning of that word 'relationship'
11:20 which means to carry back.
K: What, sir?
11:23 Q: Relationship is: something
goes out from one person
11:27 and something is carried back
from the other.
11:30 K: Yes, yes.
11:31 Q: Without the carry back,
the re-late,
11:34 there won't be anything
called relationship.
11:37 K: Yes.
Q: It can't be carried back.
11:38 We have been talking
so far
11:39 as though one person
were doing the relating only.
11:46 K: I think, you've heard all that
so I don't have to repeat it.
11:54 Please, enter into
the discussion.
11:57 Q: Is it possible to look
at why we do that.
12:00 K: Yes, why do we support this kind
of life, why do we live this way.
12:07 Q: Then is it important
why we question?
12:09 It is important to know
what is our motivation.
12:14 K: No,
I am questioning it now.
12:18 I am questioning why human beings,
including us, we live that way.
12:26 Is it part of our heredity, part
of our tradition, part of our habit,
12:30 so we have got used to it
and say,
12:32 yes, that's the way to live.
12:35 Trees struggle, everything
struggles, this is part of nature,
12:43 inevitable that in our relationship
there must be conflict.
12:49 We can find all kinds of excuses
but the fact remains which is,
12:55 a relationship between
two people, give and take,
12:59 and looking back,
and all the rest of it.
13:02 We are questioning
why we accept that way of life?
13:17 Why we accept wars,
why we accept violence, and so on.
13:24 Q: Sir, if we relate impartial,
13:34 therefore our motivations
are impartial.
13:52 K: So, do you say
you accept it as it is?
13:56 Q: I don't know, but it seems
to be the problem of not wanting
14:02 to get entangled
in something false,
14:04 and yet not wanting
to isolate oneself.
14:12 K: I don't quite follow this.
14:15 The others may follow,
please answer him, not me alone.
14:19 I am not the oracle.
14:21 Q: You've said
relationship creates conflict.
14:27 K: No, no,
I didn't say that.
14:33 Not 'I said',
what is the fact.
14:37 Fact is, in our daily
relationship with each other
14:41 - man, woman, and so on -
there is division, there is conflict,
14:48 there is struggle, and
all the things involved in it,
14:52 which we don't have
to describe in detail
14:55 because everybody knows
what our relationships are.
15:02 Q: If all those things
are eliminated...
15:06 K: No, not 'if'.
You see, that is supposition.
15:10 Q: When all those things
are gone...
15:12 K: The same thing
- if, when.
15:22 Q: Isn't part of the tension
in relationship
15:26 because another can hurt you,
and you are afraid of this.
15:33 K: First, let's see
what actually is taking place
15:38 and then we can move
from there.
15:42 If we accept that this kind of
struggle in relationship is healthy,
15:51 and in nature
everything is struggling
15:56 - a tree in a forest
is struggling to have light,
16:01 a tiger is chasing a deer.
16:04 You follow?
There, constant struggle.
16:08 And we may say, to have this conflict
is healthy, helps us to grow,
16:13 all kinds of things,
and you accept it. Right?
16:18 One generally accepts it, unless the
struggle becomes utterly intolerable,
16:27 then there is divorce,
the breaking up of the family,
16:32 which affects the children,
and so on.
16:42 If that is a fact,
and it is generally a fact,
16:48 then how do we approach the fact
in order to bring about
16:56 a transformation
in the way we are living?
17:02 I can't explain.
17:04 I think, it is fairly clear
what we are talking about, isn't it?
17:12 Q: I feel that there is no true
relationship if there is no love.
17:18 K: So, then we come to the question,
what is love.
17:25 We may come to that question
17:27 or we may begin with that,
if you wish.
17:30 Then we have to enquire
into what we call love.
17:35 Have we love for another?
17:39 One may say, I love my wife,
but is that love?
17:51 You follow?
17:52 Q: Why is there no love in us?
K: I beg your pardon?
17:56 Q: Why is there
no true relationship?
18:00 I feel it is because there is
no love in us, inside us.
18:09 K: Sir, I want to find out -
I don't know why I am answering,
18:12 please we are all supposed
to take part in this discussion,
18:16 every one of us, not me talk
all the time and you listen.
18:22 All of us are supposed to engage
in conversation,
18:27 when one question is put by another,
to answer it as well as we can,
18:32 find out how each one of us
reacts to these things.
18:40 Q: Before I can come
to any consideration of love
18:44 I have to somehow face the fact that
I am threatened by a relationship.
18:50 K: That's
what I am asking.
18:54 Are we clear what our actual
relationships are at present,
19:00 now, not in some future,
if and when.
19:08 Q: We are all afraid
of getting hurt.
19:12 K: So, is our relationship
based on fear, getting hurt?
19:25 Q: It is unconsciously based
on fear, pressure, and images.
19:38 K: Tunki, you have heard me
talk about images, infinitely,
19:44 for a number of years
I've been talking.
19:46 Are you repeating
what we have said,
19:50 or you have discovered that
for yourself?
20:00 Q: I need somebody
and then that person does something
20:08 which I like and then I would have
a certain image of this person
20:13 - oh, this person is named such
and such, and is a very kind person.
20:18 K: So, you are clear,
it is your own discovery.
20:24 I haven't told you that you have got
an image about that person.
20:27 It's your own discovery that
you have an image about a person.
20:35 Q: Yes.
K: That's all.
20:37 So it's yours, not mine.
20:49 Q: I think, we do have relationships
with people but they are limited
20:55 because we are always
looking for something to share.
21:00 For example, nationalism will bring
a lot of people together
21:04 and they will have
a sort of relationship,
21:06 but the moment there is nothing
that interests you
21:08 in a relationship,
you won't care.
21:11 K: So interest brings us together
because of a particular interest.
21:19 Is that it?
21:21 Q: Like here we are sitting together
and we have relationship
21:24 because we all care
about the same thing.
21:26 K: Aren't we moving away ?
I am just asking.
21:31 Q: There is also another
factor of relationship
21:34 which he was talking about.
21:39 Q: Might it help, can we go back
to the question of how is it
21:42 that we can approach this,
21:43 so that it will bring about
a transformation in relationship?
21:47 K: And also the gentleman
raised the question,
21:52 we are anxious
about our relationship
21:54 because it is based
on fear of getting hurt.
22:04 Q: I don't understand
this 'getting hurt'.
22:07 K: We will go into it, sir.
22:08 But first, do we realise,
that, at present,
22:18 as we live daily, our relationship
is a peculiar affair,
22:27 to put it mildly.
22:33 A sense of division, 'you' and 'me'.
You with your ambitions,
22:40 you with your career,
you with your passions,
22:43 you with your ambitions,
and so on,
22:47 and me with my ambitions,
and greed, and so on.
22:51 This is our actual
daily state.
22:55 I have a profession, and I spend
ten hours at it, earning money,
23:03 I come home, and she has also gone
out to earn money and comes home,
23:09 and we are both tired, irritation
- you know all this,
23:14 why should I discuss it,
I am not married, sure.
23:21 Q: And also
with little children.
23:23 We enter a peculiar relationship
with very little children
23:27 where one feels
they can look through one,
23:30 so there is a block
in the relationship.
23:32 K: What I am asking,
madame, is,
23:36 do we realise actually
the way our relationships are.
23:44 Do I know my relationship
with my wife - or girl, boy -
23:50 is divisive,
23:55 and because it is divisive
there must be conflict?
23:59 That's all.
I am starting from there.
24:04 Q: I don't think
we do know it
24:06 - at least I don't think I know
it most of the time.
24:08 It's a sort of
compulsive thing.
24:10 And until I can allow it to be
different and to be separate
24:17 then I have got no choice.
24:21 K: Now how do we discuss
this problem?
24:24 Nobody seems to want
to join except a few of us.
24:27 All of us, it's all our problem.
Why don't we talk about it,
24:32 why don't we go into it?
24:36 Are we afraid to go into it?
24:39 Q: It's a fact.
K: Are we afraid to go into the fact?
24:42 Q: I think, we are.
K: That's just it.
24:46 We are afraid to go into the fact,
and facing the fact,
24:51 the very facing of the fact
may produce certain reactions,
24:57 and of those reactions
we are afraid. Is that it?
25:02 Q: I nearly cry
when I think about it.
25:09 K: So what shall we do? Just
verbally talk about relationship?
25:16 And keep our fears
and let things go on as they are?
25:21 Q: That's what we generally do.
K: I know. Is that what you want?
25:25 Q: No.
K: For god's sake.
25:32 Q: How can we at every moment
recognise division?
25:36 It seems that we see it
retrospectively, afterwards,
25:41 but in the moment we have our
barriers (inaudible).
25:46 How can we recognise
this division every second?
25:51 K: I don't have to recognise
something, it is there!
25:56 Why do I have to say
I have to recognise
25:59 that I am in conflict with my wife?
It is there.
26:03 Q: I am afraid of saying so.
26:05 K: Therefore, is it
a question of fear
26:07 that we don't talk
about our relationship?
26:10 Q: Yes, in case...
K: If it is fear, let's tackle fear!
26:15 Let's go into
the question of fear.
26:20 But if you say, sorry, I don't want
to discuss any kind of relationship
26:25 with my wife, or with the world,
or with anything
26:28 because I am afraid if I do go
into it, something may happen
26:33 in our status quo,
therefore let's leave that alone
26:37 and let's talk about God and golf,
or the beautiful days.
26:45 Is that what you want?
27:00 If you want to talk about
God and the beautiful days,
27:02 cut me out.
It's very simple.
27:11 Q: Well, for me, I again come
back on the level of getting hurt.
27:18 K: All right, sir.
Now wait a minute.
27:20 Do I really want to find
a relationship with somebody
27:27 in which being hurt
is impossible?
27:33 Is it possible never to be hurt?
Even that, to discuss it.
27:42 Q: You ask is it possible, never?
K: Of course.
27:47 Q: Never to be hurt?
K: Never to be hurt.
27:49 Q: Not physically, you mean?
K: In all relationships.
27:54 Q: But sometimes
I feel hurt.
28:04 K: I don't quite follow.
28:05 Q: Sometimes she feels hurt.
K: Why should I be hurt?
28:11 Why should another hurt me?
Why should my wife hurt me?
28:17 Or my children, or my boss,
or anybody,
28:21 why should they hurt me?
28:25 No, why? I know they do.
I know we have been hurt.
28:29 Q: Because you have different
feelings and different thoughts.
28:33 Q: It seems we have a self,
and that self is what gets hurt,
28:39 and that self is what prevents us
from having any relationship.
28:43 K: Either we accept being hurt,
as inevitable,
28:50 or there is a way
of living in relationship
28:56 where there is
no hurt at all.
29:01 K: Apparently
you don't even find out.
29:07 Q: It's also not wanting
to hurt the other person.
29:21 K: What do we do now, sir?
29:23 Do you want to go into
this question of being hurt?
29:25 Q: Yes.
Q: Yes.
29:27 K: Which means,
a way of living with another,
29:34 intimately or
not intimately,
29:36 in which there is no possibility
at any time of being hurt.
29:42 Right? Is that possible?
29:46 So let's find out.
Q: No, it's not possible.
29:49 K: If you say, not possible,
then it's finished.
29:52 Q: All right, it's finished.
29:54 K: If you say it is not possible
you have closed the door on it.
29:59 Q: It is possible.
30:01 K: If you say...
30:06 If you say it is possible you have
also closed the door on it.
30:10 Let's find out.
30:12 Q: Yes, let's find out.
30:17 K: Do you really want to go into this?
Q: Yes, I have never thought about it.
30:20 K: Not you and I,
but all of us.
30:23 Is this a problem
that you want to discuss,
30:26 go into and resolve it,
not next year start again and say,
30:30 'I am hurt, please tell me how to get
rid of it' - it becomes too silly.
30:39 Q: Probably I want to find out
because I don't like being hurt.
30:43 K: If you want to go into this
question of being hurt, what is hurt?
30:51 When you say, I am hurt
by my wife, or by somebody,
30:55 what is the thing that is hurt?
Q: Some feeling in myself.
30:58 K: Examine it,
don't answer me. Forgive me.
31:01 Find out for yourself
what is the thing that is hurt.
31:23 Q: One can see, if one looks at it,
that there are
31:27 areas of rigidity in oneself
that are hurt.
31:37 K: Rigidity. All right.
You say that.
31:44 Please, all of us take part in this,
for god's sake!
31:48 Q: It's the self,
that's hurt.
31:52 Q: What is the self,
what do you mean?
31:56 Q: It's the self images,
it's what you consider to be you.
32:01 K: Look, I want to find out,
I am hurt for various reasons
32:07 - we can find out
what has hurt me -
32:11 but I want to find out
what is the thing that is hurt.
32:16 You understand, sir?
32:17 Is it my thought,
is it my body,
32:21 is it my image about myself, is it
a sense of wanting not to be hurt
32:28 and therefore being hurt?
You follow?
32:30 So what is it
when you say, I am hurt?
32:35 Is it physical hurt,
or a psychological hurt?
32:43 Q: It's a psychological hurt
we are talking about.
32:47 I took it that
we're talking about that.
32:49 K: I am asking you, sir,
please tell me, or tell each other.
32:54 Q: Let's talk
about psychological hurt
32:55 because physical pain
I can understand, I am sure.
32:58 Q: But doesn't psychological pain
give you physical pain as well?
33:04 Q: In the sense, you mean
you feel tense?
33:06 K: I am married, or you call
me a fool, and I am hurt.
33:14 My wife says something
to me and I get hurt. Right?
33:20 Or you call me a perfect fool,
an idiot, and I get hurt.
33:25 Now I am asking you
- please stick to this one point -
33:30 what is the thing, when I say,
'I am hurt' - what is hurt?
33:39 Q: It seems to me that I am hurt
33:40 because I have
a certain idea of myself.
33:44 K: All right.
Leave it there.
33:46 An idea about myself.
33:51 Q: An interpretation of the words.
K: Wait, keep to that one thing,
33:56 don't add more to it,
we will come to it.
33:58 That is, I have an idea
about myself. Right?
34:05 I think, I am a great man,
with tremendous reputation,
34:10 you come along and say, you are
a perfect ass, and I get hurt.
34:16 Q: That's not
the primary observation.
34:19 The first observation is sensations
in the body, and heat...
34:23 K: Yes sir, I know.
34:27 I am hurt because you called
me a fool. Right?
34:34 Now, what is the thing
that is hurt?
34:38 When I say, I am hurt,
what is this 'I' that is hurt?
34:45 Q: There are certain things
that compose our self.
34:51 Our conditions, our ideas,
everything our self is made up of,
35:00 so for that matter
we have certain desires,
35:04 certain goals,
certain ideas.
35:09 If someone comes along and
contradicts what I think,
35:15 what I know is myself,
is my knowledge, is my idea,
35:23 is my condition,
and breaks it at a certain limit,
35:29 well, then it is for me
- not for him,
35:34 because he has other ideas,
35:36 and other conditionings,
and other things.
35:38 K: So for you -
leave the other fellow alone.
35:42 Q: For me, it is not enough, the
line is broken at a certain point.
35:53 K: So, you have a certain idea.
Q: I have a certain goal.
35:57 K: Certain idea -
keep to that word 'idea'
36:00 which that gentleman
36:03 That idea is broken,
is modified, or shattered.
36:10 And that idea,
being shattered, hurts you.
36:18 Q: Yes, of course.
K: Keep to that, don't expand.
36:22 Q: OK, yes, of course.
36:26 K: So, what is hurt
is the idea about yourself.
36:35 Keep to that simple thing.
36:39 Q: What is hurt, yes, it's my idea.
K: Keep to that simple thing.
36:45 I have an idea about myself,
or I have an ideal, or a belief,
36:53 or a conclusion, and so on.
You come along and break it, kill it,
37:00 or chip it, break it up.
Q: Modify it.
37:04 K: Modify it. So I get hurt.
Q: Yes.
37:07 K: That's all. That's all.
Keep it there.
37:11 So, what happens?
37:13 You come along
and break my idea,
37:19 or you give a shock to that idea,
and I get hurt, I shrivel up. Right?
37:28 Q: Yes.
K: That's all. Right, sir?
37:32 Q: It's not just the idea
that I have about myself,
37:36 it's the idea
I have of the other.
37:38 K: Oh no, how can I have
the idea about the other?
37:41 Q: Because I have an idea...
37:45 I don't get hurt if people I
don't care about, or don't respect,
37:49 say that I am a fool,
37:51 it's only if there is
someone says this
37:54 if I have an idea
about something
37:57 that is between us,
or that I respect his opinion.
38:02 K: It is still my idea.
38:06 Q: It's my idea, but not entirely only
inwardly about myself, it is also...
38:12 K: It is still my idea about her.
Q: Yes, all right.
38:17 Q: Yes. If I have an idea
and you come along
38:21 and chip off half of it, or say,
if I think I am something,
38:28 and you say I am something else,
I don't necessarily have to be hurt.
38:33 I can say, well, he's the fool,
I am not the fool.
38:38 He's a fool for saying I am a fool
because I am not a fool
38:42 and therefore I avoid
the whole issue.
38:45 I am concerned with my ideas.
K: Which means
38:49 I have an idea
I am not a fool.
38:53 I don't see why we scramble all
over the place for a simple thing.
38:58 I have an idea.
39:01 And you come along and chip that
idea, break it up and I get hurt.
39:05 That idea gets hurt.
39:07 Q: But she is saying that not
necessarily one will get hurt.
39:13 Q: Is that one is depending
on other people to keep this image?
39:19 K: Partly, sir. I am dependent
on you, or my wife,
39:25 and I am afraid that dependency
might break down
39:30 and therefore
I am frightened,
39:33 and so I get more dependent
on her, or on him.
39:37 It is still me getting hurt.
39:41 I am asking you
what is the 'me' that gets hurt?
39:51 K: No, you are going off
to a little more complex thing.
39:55 Have you an idea about yourself
which can be hurt?
40:01 You have, haven't you?
Q: Yes.
40:04 K: That is, you have a picture,
an idea, an image,
40:10 or you have conclusions
about yourself,
40:14 and that image, conclusions,
ideas, get hurt. Right?
40:21 Then the next question is: why do you
have images about yourself?
40:27 Why do you have a conclusion
about something or other?
40:34 You don't go into all this!
40:37 Q: It is supposed
to give the self a meaning.
40:42 Q: What do you
give the meaning to?
40:45 K: I can't hear that, sir,
what you said.
40:47 Q: Well, conclusion
is the meaning.
40:52 Q: Why is one
looking for meaning?
40:59 Q: It gives importance,
41:07 it is still an idea
that one is important.
41:11 Q: I think it is for security.
41:21 Q: Somehow there is an energy
that tries to be important.
41:26 There's something behind it
that wants importance.
41:29 Q: But can we really
try to narrow down
41:32 what is this energy
that seeks importance.
41:38 Is that just a different word
for the same thing
41:42 we are trying
to catch hold of?
41:45 A 'me', an ego, an idea, an energy,
what is that thing,
41:50 or is there such a thing,
41:52 why is there a moving towards,
a generating factor?
41:57 Q: Isn't it thought that creates
all these ideas
42:01 and desires
to be meaningful?
42:07 Q: So shall we try
to find out what it is?
42:13 Q: I even don't know if it has got
something to do with my idea
42:16 when I get hurt
by seeing violence.
42:20 K: You see, you are
moving away from something,
42:24 which is, sir, we are talking
about relationship.
42:31 Relationship with my wife,
my girlfriend, my boy,
42:35 relationship.
42:37 In that relationship
we get hurt.
42:40 Right?
Is that what you are saying?
42:45 Or am I saying it
and you are accepting it?
42:49 Q: No, we are saying that.
K: Right.
42:53 People are frightened
about this matter, you know,
42:55 that's why
they are all very quiet,
42:58 because it may open
the Pandora's door. You know that?
43:03 Open the devil's inside,
so he is frightened,
43:07 he keeps it all
very closed.
43:09 So, I want to open it for myself,
you don't have to listen.
43:13 I've opened it for myself
umpteen times.
43:16 So, I am hurt.
I question. I say, why?
43:21 Why am I hurt
and what is hurt?
43:26 As many of you
have pointed out,
43:29 it is my idea, my conclusion,
my dependency,
43:35 my sense of belief
I have got,
43:39 which all goes to make up
a picture about myself.
43:43 Right? Right?
I am a - what? -
43:49 a scientist, a professor,
a businessman,
43:53 and I have
a picture of myself.
43:57 And you come along and say,
you are not as good as I am.
44:03 I have discovered much more, or
I have done this, I have done that.
44:06 I get a shock. Right?
44:11 So my next question is,
44:14 why do I have
these pictures, images,
44:19 ideas, conclusions,
which can be hurt?
44:22 As long as I have them
they are all going to be trodden on.
44:29 Right?
44:30 No?
44:35 No?
44:37 Q: Are we asking, Krishnaji,
why do we maintain the self?
44:40 K: No.
My question is, Scott,
44:43 - just listen -
I have gotten them. Right?
44:47 And I see, as long as I have them,
somebody is going to tread on them.
44:53 It may not be my wife,
44:56 it may be some stranger
or somebody whom I know,
44:59 somebody
is going to tread on it.
45:02 Then I get hurt.
45:04 So I am asking myself, why do I
have these images, pictures,
45:09 ideas, conclusions
about anything,
45:13 which can be hurt,
45:17 which can be trodden on?
45:18 Q: Isn't it to build up
an identity about ourselves?
45:22 K: So, I have identified myself
with my belief,
45:28 my picture,
my image, and so on,
45:33 so I am all that!
45:38 And when any of you tread on
any of these things I am hurt.
45:47 Keep it as simple,
let's keep it simple first
45:50 and we will make it very,
very complex as we go along.
45:54 Q: Because I feel I need to know
and to be sure, to be secure.
45:59 K: But it is so, isn't it. If you have
no picture about yourself
46:07 - I am a marvellous woman,
marvellous man,
46:11 I play, I am very good at this,
and so on -
46:16 if I have no pictures at all
about myself, you can't hurt me.
46:21 Q: Then I am afraid
that I might not exist
46:23 K: So, then, you say,
if I don't have
46:30 images, pictures,
conclusions and so on,
46:34 I am nobody.
46:36 So fear of being nobody creates
these pictures. Right?
46:43 The fear of being nobody
46:46 is conditioned by society,
46:51 by your parents, and so on,
they say you must be somebody,
46:57 you must be good at mathematics,
at being a professor,
47:02 businessman, or a violinist,
and so on,
47:06 and society has imposed this
47:12 through education,
or you have your own capacity.
47:17 And so you have
a picture about yourself.
47:20 You say, can I live without a picture
about myself, and you say, I can't,
47:25 because it is too frightening
to be nothing.
47:30 Wait, wait.
Which means what?
47:36 You actually have not given
that up - the picture -
47:40 but you are afraid
what might be.
47:49 It might be something
entirely different.
47:56 It's like a person who is attached
to another tremendously,
48:02 and won't let go because he says,
if I let go what will happen.
48:09 'What will happen' is creating fear,
not the letting go.
48:19 But if you let go then you will
find out what might happen. Right?
48:26 Q: Part of the trouble seems
to be you want to know
48:28 what will happen
before you let go.
48:31 K: Yes, yes. Before I give up I must
have some reward at the end of it.
48:37 This is the good old game
we've all played.
48:39 So I am asking, myself and you,
why am I hurt?
48:47 Can I and you be free
of the idea, the image, the picture?
48:56 If you can't, then get hurt
and accept it, and live with it,
49:02 don't say, is it possible
to live without being hurt.
49:06 I say it is not possible
if you accept that.
49:15 But if you say, I know I am hurt,
now I see why I am hurt,
49:21 the reason, the logic,
the sequence of getting hurt,
49:24 now let us find out
a way of not being hurt.
49:30 That is, let's find
a process, or something
49:35 which will completely wipe away
any image I have.
49:44 And I don't create future images.
Is that possible?
49:52 Q: Not creating the negative image,
saying I am bad, I am worth nothing,
50:00 therefore I won't be hurt.
50:02 K: Ah, no, again that's
a game you are playing.
50:11 Do you really, seriously,
want to find a way of living
50:15 in which
you cannot possibly be hurt?
50:20 Do you want to find out?
50:22 K: No, it isn't a game
you are playing.
50:27 Q: But we think that these
images about our self are necessary
50:32 so we won't drop them.
50:34 K: Let's find out.
Are they necessary?
50:37 If you think they are necessary
it is going to be hurt.
50:44 So anything that can be hurt
is not necessary.
50:53 Right?
50:55 Anything that can be destroyed,
trampled upon,
50:58 broken up
is not worth keeping!
51:04 You wouldn't buy a cheap dress
which would last half a day.
51:10 Right? You may say it is
necessary to have a dress, agreed.
51:17 Q: Also along
with those hurts comes pleasure.
51:20 K: I just want to keep
to this one thing,
51:22 that comes a little later.
51:25 Now, do we want
to find a way of living
51:30 in which there is
no possibility of being hurt?
51:38 Q: It seems that if I have
an image of myself
51:42 it is because I always
refer to the past.
51:48 K: Yes, which is, past is your
knowledge about yourself,
51:54 what you have accumulated,
and so on.
51:58 I am asking a different question,
if you don't mind.
52:01 Do we want to discover
for ourselves a way of living
52:07 in which the picture is not?
52:17 Q: Is there a way?
K: Dead silence!
52:25 Q: Can we want to...
52:28 if we are afraid of being
totally alone, totally empty,
52:36 can we want
to find out how to?
52:39 K: Ah! that's not the point.
52:43 The point is, is there a way
of living not to be hurt?
52:47 Not what it means
to be empty,
52:50 not what it means
to be lonely.
52:53 Q: Not to be hurt
implies to be empty,
52:56 as we have talked it over,
isn't it?
53:04 K: What is it, Tunki, sorry?
53:05 Q: Not to be hurt implies
to be empty, as he mentioned it,
53:11 as he has talked this over.
53:13 K: Look, sir, that's not the point,
we are not talking about emptiness.
53:17 You see,
you won't face the fact!
53:20 You talk about non-fact,
53:23 You don't know any thing
about emptiness, why talk about it?
53:32 Q: Surely, if you don't want
to be hurt,
53:35 that is possibly a wrong way
of putting it,
53:37 that seems
to have a motive.
53:39 K: I beg your pardon?
53:40 Q: You see, if you live
and you are prepared to look at hurt,
53:46 and you will get hurt, but then
be able to look at it and say,
53:49 why am I hurt,
I see what I am doing,
53:51 but not to avoid hurt,
to live without hurt.
53:54 You learn by living, and being,
seeing all these things happening.
54:03 K: But it is happening
every day of my life.
54:05 Q: Yes, how do you
solve that?
54:10 K: Why should I look at it,
I know that I am hurt.
54:15 Q: But it is not necessarily
a question of hurt.
54:17 It is a question, there is a problem
arising, how do I solve this.
54:21 How do I meet this?
K: I am showing you.
54:26 Q: But if it is recorded
in the memory
54:28 and it is a return always of the
memory, the same hurt.
54:36 K: Mrs Simmons, I am asking you
- we are asking each other -
54:43 knowing that one is hurt,
54:49 Q: I don't think it is a question
of hurt necessarily,
54:51 I think, it is a question
of looking at difficult facts.
54:54 K: No, no, please, lady,
54:58 now you are introducing
something entirely different.
55:00 Q: It is the meeting of the facts
that causes the difficulties.
55:04 K: I don't know how to meet the fact.
Q: Well, I am finding out in living.
55:09 K: Which is, that is in living I have
learnt the fact that I am hurt.
55:18 Q: Krishnaji...
K: Answer her.
55:21 Q: I think she is just
trying to say that, if you say,
55:25 how can I not be hurt,
55:26 there is a danger
of just avoiding being hurt,
55:30 but obviously
that's no solution either.
55:32 K: Oh, my lordy!
55:33 Q: Yes, it's about
what we are doing right now.
55:39 Are we trying
to move away from hurt,
55:42 trying to find a way
to not be hurt?
55:44 Then what is it about?
55:47 K: No, Mrs Simmons is saying
something entirely different.
55:50 As far as I understand,
she is saying that, as I live,
55:55 I begin to learn
55:57 the way I am hurt,
and why I am hurt,
56:03 and not
make a problem of it.
56:05 Q: I don't think that was
what she was saying.
56:08 K: Wait, let me finish.
56:10 I am trying to understand
what she said.
56:18 I am not hurt, but I am learning,
as I live, that I am getting hurt,
56:25 and as I am getting hurt,
I learn about the hurt
56:30 and act about it, immediately.
Is that what you are saying?
56:36 Q: That is
what life is about.
56:46 K: I understand. Is that it?
Is life like that?
56:55 You may think life should be
like that, but is it like that?
57:00 Q: I find it so.
K: Actually.
57:03 Q: Actually.
57:04 K: Actually you find that, living,
you are getting hurt
57:11 and you are learning about that hurt,
and wiping away that hurt.
57:22 Is that it?
57:24 Q: Can you tackle one hurt
after another?
57:27 K: Just a minute.
So, you have learnt about that hurt.
57:30 And next time
again you learn.
57:33 Q: That seems to be
just putting it off.
57:37 I am trying to understand
the problem as she raises it.
57:42 Q: You see that's
in the course of it,
57:44 but you are the common problem
all the time.
57:47 K: Yes, I am the common problem,
which comes to the same thing.
57:50 Q: You say, what is it about me
and I have got such a fantastic ego
57:54 that I refer everything back
to how I feel,
57:59 and so you begin to perhaps say,
it doesn't rest with me,
58:04 perhaps
there is something else.
58:06 K: So you have learnt
through a series of days,
58:11 through a series of events
that you get hurt,
58:15 and that you have this enormous ego
that is getting hurt,
58:20 through a series of days,
58:22 and then tackle the problem
of why you have built
58:27 this extraordinary importance
about yourself. Is that it?
58:32 Q: Not quite.
58:33 K: I say, why do that?
58:35 Why wait till the very end
to discover that you've built...
58:40 Q: Of course, this is the doing
of it as you live,
58:42 you don't sit down like this
and discuss...
58:45 K: Can one do that
- that's all I'm saying.
58:47 Probably,
we are saying
58:48 the same thing
in different words.
58:50 Can you, as you live daily life,
observe that you are getting hurt
58:55 and wipe it away instantly?
58:59 Can you? Will you?
59:05 Q: I want to learn more about
these hurts, the very hurt itself.
59:08 K: I tell you, it is hurt
because I have got an image,
59:11 a picture about myself.
59:14 You come along and say, you are not
as good a pianist as I am,
59:19 and I get hurt, because I have got
a picture that I am one of the best.
59:25 Q: But Mrs Simmons...
59:28 K: Listen to it, that gentleman
hasn't understood the idea
59:32 that we have got a picture
about ourselves.
59:35 Q: I have understood that.
59:38 K: Then as long as you have
that picture you will be hurt.
59:41 Q: Yes.
59:42 K: So, next question is,
is it possible to wipe it out?
59:46 Q: The hurt you mean?
K: No, the picture.
59:49 Q: The picture.
K: Which gets hurt.
59:54 Q: If I can accept the hurt
then that wipes out the picture.
1:00:01 K: No.
Q: It is no longer hurt.
1:00:04 K: Why should you
accept a hurt?
1:00:08 Q: Because if I accept the hurt
I am not longer hurt.
1:00:13 It is something different
if I can accept it.
1:00:17 Q: Is that so?
Q: Yes.
1:00:20 Q: Then it's destroying all our
images, all our conditionings.
1:00:25 Q: You have a new image about yourself
that you are able to accept hurts.
1:00:30 Q: I cannot do it.
Q: No, no. My question was,
1:00:33 the gentleman said that if you
accept it then it was no longer hurt,
1:00:37 I just wanted to know
if that is so,
1:00:39 is that a real experience.
Q: It is for me, yes.
1:00:43 K: Why should I accept anything?
Why should I accept war?
1:00:49 Why should I accept violence?
1:00:51 Why should I accept
I am hurt and it's all right?
1:00:56 Q: But it's the truth that is hurt
to me, so why should I not accept it?
1:01:01 I am hurt by the truth.
1:01:04 K: All right. If you are hurt
by the truth,
1:01:10 and you accept that hurt,
1:01:17 who is accepting the hurt?
1:01:22 Q: It is not the image.
1:01:25 K: No.
Who is accepting the hurt?
1:01:31 It's another image
which is accepting the hurt .
1:01:35 Q: You don't accept it.
1:01:37 We react to the hurt,
we don't just
1:01:39 let it pass by
and say it was nothing,
1:01:42 we are obsessed by it
because it drives us to do things.
1:01:55 Q: Even after having
discussed all this,
1:01:57 hurt will go on tomorrow,
I am sure.
1:01:59 K: What, sir?
1:02:00 Q: Even after having
discussed all this today
1:02:03 hurt will go on tomorrow, I am sure,
when I read the newspaper.
1:02:06 K: Yes. So we are hurt
by the world events,
1:02:12 by violence, and we are hurt
by our immediate friend.
1:02:25 So we are saying,
as long as we have an image,
1:02:28 which you may discover
at the end of ten days,
1:02:33 learning about getting hurt,
and what is getting hurt, and so on,
1:02:39 can't you see directly now
that as long as you have an image
1:02:45 - either the accepting image
or the denying image,
1:02:48 they are still the images -
1:02:52 as long as I have an image
it'll be hurt.
1:03:01 Q: But it seems to me that if one
is thinking only in terms of hurt,
1:03:06 then one is rather trapped
because one may convert,
1:03:09 settle for the hurts
one knows.
1:03:11 K: Yes, sir.
Q: That is a possibility.
1:03:17 K: We can enlarge the whole thing,
not just hurt.
1:03:21 As long as I have an image
there is no possibility of love.
1:03:27 Q: The image seems
to be all that there is,
1:03:29 so what can get rid
of the image?
1:03:36 That's all the question.
1:03:37 As long as there is the image
you are going to be trodden on.
1:03:40 Q: The image is my reference.
1:03:42 Q: It seems that that's
all that there is,
1:03:44 so what can get rid
of the image?
1:03:46 K: Now, what will you do?
1:03:50 Q: We said looking
at the image.
1:03:51 K: No, let's forget it.
Let's start it again
1:03:55 - please help me, sir -
I have got an image about myself,
1:04:03 a marvellous image.
1:04:08 I have talked for fifty years,
and I am a great man,
1:04:11 I am extraordinarily clever,
blah, blah, blah.
1:04:15 And you come along,
tread on it.
1:04:20 And I get hurt
because I have this immense
1:04:24 egotistic picture about myself.
1:04:28 Now please help me
to be free of that picture
1:04:36 because you have told me:
as long as you have that picture
1:04:41 somebody is going
to put a pin in it. Right?
1:04:47 Now, help me to understand
the picture and wipe it away
1:04:53 so that nobody can
put a pin into me at all.
1:04:58 Q: There are so many pictures.
1:05:05 K: There is only one picture-maker,
in Bond Street - sorry!
1:05:13 There is only one picture-maker.
There are not many pictures.
1:05:19 Right?
1:05:22 This is not clear?
1:05:26 Q: There are many pictures,
but only one picture-maker.
1:05:30 K: No, only one painter
painting many pictures.
1:05:34 Q: Yes.
K: That's all. Right?
1:05:39 So who is that one painter
1:05:47 who is painting
innumerable pictures:
1:05:51 I am a great man, I must be rich,
I must have a position,
1:05:56 I must be recognised
- you follow? -
1:06:00 I am beautiful, I am lovely,
I am great.
1:06:03 These are all pictures.
1:06:05 Q: All our judgements.
1:06:08 K: All judgements, pictures,
1:06:11 beliefs, dogmas
- the whole circus.
1:06:15 Q: That's what
I think of as myself.
1:06:17 K: Which is
the image-maker.
1:06:22 Which is what? Thought.
1:06:25 Q: Yes.
1:06:27 Q: Thought in a certain direction
- self-interest.
1:06:34 K: Yes, thought in one direction
one day,
1:06:35 the next day another,
and so on.
1:06:38 Q: Isn't thought...
K: No, don't move.
1:06:41 First, let me understand
- you've said thought -
1:06:44 let me understand that,
don't jump to something else.
1:06:50 Is that so?
1:06:53 Is the central painter
of innumerable pictures,
1:06:59 who is that one painter
who is doing all this?
1:07:07 You understand my question?
Q: Yes.
1:07:08 K: Who is that one painter
who is painting so many pictures
1:07:13 according to circumstances,
according to desire,
1:07:16 and so on, so on.
Who is that?
1:07:23 Q: It is a thing
that I used to call the 'me',
1:07:25 but I doubt now
if it is me.
1:07:28 K: Not what 'I' call - forget
what I call - what do you call?
1:07:36 How do you look at the painter,
the one painter?
1:07:40 Q: What I call 'I'?
K: Who is the one painter?
1:07:44 Q: Thought.
K: So tell them.
1:07:47 Q: Thought.
1:07:49 Q: Wouldn't you say that this painter
is made up by...
1:07:58 everything around me.
1:08:00 Because in relationship
everybody has images
1:08:08 and it's like
a whole board of pins,
1:08:10 whereby you put
one person over there,
1:08:13 and the other there,
and yourself
1:08:14 on a certain place
on the board,
1:08:17 and it seems
our relationship is...
1:08:23 K: Look, Tunki, Picasso painted
a thousand pictures, let's say,
1:08:31 different periods, different ideas,
and so on.
1:08:34 Picasso was the painter all the time.
Right? Who is that Picasso?
1:08:43 Q: His talent.
1:08:47 K: What is that talent?
1:08:52 Who is that painter?
Don't reduce it to talent.
1:08:56 Who is that painter?
1:08:58 The talent, the greed,
1:09:03 communist
- the dove carrying the peace -
1:09:09 all that is Picasso, and more,
his sexual appetite, his jealousies.
1:09:17 So there is only one painter
which is me, Picasso.
1:09:23 I am not Picasso,
thank god!
1:09:34 Now, as long as there are pictures
I am painting,
1:09:39 somebody is going
to come and tear it.
1:09:44 And that tearing
I call being hurt. Right?
1:09:49 Now, can I - what's the good
of my repeating this umpteen times!
1:09:54 I want to find out
a way of living
1:10:00 that whatever I paint
can never be trodden on.
1:10:08 Q: Well, then...
1:10:09 K: Listen to my question first,
don't jump.
1:10:12 Q: Yes, it's the second time
it's aroused in the conversation.
1:10:19 I see the question
very clearly.
1:10:25 For there not to be hurt,
I think, it is necessary
1:10:29 for all the paintings
to be eliminated.
1:10:33 K: Which means what?
That I don't paint at all.
1:10:36 Q: Right, yes.
1:10:37 K: Wait,
go into it.
1:10:41 That I don't paint at all, that
I don't act, that I don't express,
1:10:44 that I don't give way to my talent,
I do absolutely nothing.
1:10:51 Q: Yes.
1:10:53 K: I can't live like that!
What are you saying!
1:10:57 Q: Maybe one starts with not
putting the name on the picture.
1:11:03 Q: What do you mean
by picture?
1:11:04 The picture is the images
of ourselves, right?
1:11:09 So, if you don't have
those pictures...
1:11:13 Q: There is no self, no.
1:11:15 Q: Then we get the painter without
paintings, that's no good.
1:11:19 Q: No, there is no painting.
There is no painter, nor painting.
1:11:25 K: Look,
that's just an idea,
1:11:28 you're just enjoying
this expression of ideas.
1:11:32 But you haven't helped me.
1:11:35 I have asked you to help me.
- listen, sir -
1:11:39 I have asked you all to help me
to be free of this hurt.
1:11:44 And I also say not only
these peculiar hurts,
1:11:48 but to be completely
without fear of being hurt.
1:11:55 Help me.
1:12:01 Q: Saying that there is
no fear to be hurt means
1:12:06 that there are images,
that there are paintings.
1:12:10 K: Please help me to be free
from being hurt.
1:12:18 Q: I am doing the best I can.
1:12:20 K: You are not helping, you are
putting it into another set of terms.
1:12:25 I am afraid - listen to it
carefully - I am afraid.
1:12:31 Afraid of getting hurt.
1:12:35 Now please help me to be free
of my fear of getting hurt.
1:12:40 Q: Nobody can help you.
K: Otherwise you stop discussion.
1:12:47 Q: Could we go back
a little bit
1:12:49 there is something
that I don't really see well,
1:12:53 which is, we say
the painter is the 'me',
1:12:58 and that's quite easy to say,
1:13:01 and yet,
I still don't see that entity,
1:13:06 it's not so clear
that I understand it and see it.
1:13:10 K: That's just the point.
1:13:12 You don't see the truth,
the reality of it,
1:13:17 but you have accepted
the ideas about it. Right?
1:13:22 Q: Which is like
another painting.
1:13:24 K: That's what we have spent,
an hour and a quarter, on ideas.
1:13:30 We haven't faced the fact,
which is my fear of getting hurt.
1:13:36 And Mrs Simmons says,
learn about it as you live. Right?
1:13:44 Learn what fear is,
go into it, daily,
1:13:48 as it happens,
and learn all about it.
1:13:53 Right?
And at the end it is finished.
1:14:00 But I am saying quite the contrary.
Forgive me.
1:14:06 Which is, don't spend
a day on it, an hour on it.
1:14:11 Look at it, understand it
immediately, and wipe it - finished.
1:14:19 There is no choice
between the two.
1:14:28 You don't say, I like her way,
or I like your way.
1:14:32 Let's find out
what the truth of the matter is.
1:14:35 Q: So is it
an accumulative process
1:14:37 where I acquire knowledge
about being hurt
1:14:40 and I slowly, tomorrow
I'll find out about it.
1:14:44 K: That's right.
Talk to her, not to me.
1:14:47 Q: How can I begin to look at this
so that I see it much more clearly?
1:14:55 Because so far I haven't
been able to do that.
1:14:59 Q: Can we see that we accept the
deception that we create something,
1:15:06 like a toy, hold it up to the world
to shoot at ,
1:15:12 that we are admitting
this being hit, by creating a nucleus
1:15:18 which is very vulnerable and then
we paint it red and move it around.
1:15:23 Q: So if we actually saw it
as clearly as that...
1:15:26 Q: Yes, it's 'our fault',
using bad words
1:15:30 but the hurt isn't necessarily
something outside, inevitable,
1:15:35 aimed at you, but we admit
that hurt psychologically,
1:15:41 by the formation
we all have made
1:15:46 this notion of the self,
this dependence.
1:15:53 K: Is it that we are afraid to discuss
this question of relationship?
1:16:00 For you it is very easy, because
you are not involved for the moment.
1:16:05 But if you get married,
have children,
1:16:09 then it will become a problem.
So for you it is no problem,
1:16:15 so you could say,
I am not afraid of it.
1:16:17 But having married, having children
- the whole business -
1:16:22 somebody says,
let's talk about relationship,
1:16:25 I am frightened
1:16:27 because I may discover things
which may be shattering.
1:16:32 Q: Well, there's relationship
without marriage.
1:16:34 K: Oh, darling, sir...
1:16:38 Yes, I can have a relationship
without getting married.
1:16:45 Q: Doesn't it
actually refer to sorrow?
1:16:52 As we live in sorrow,
hurt is part of sorrow.
1:16:56 K: Yes, quite.
1:16:57 Q: And after the hurt
arises the image.
1:17:04 Or the image exists
and I get hurt, not after.
1:17:10 You see, please,
1:17:12 I am asking you a simple question,
first, if you don't mind.
1:17:17 Is it that we are frightened
to discuss relationship,
1:17:21 in which is involved dependency,
attachment, and jealousy,
1:17:29 sexual pleasures,
remembrances of all that,
1:17:34 is it we are avoiding
to look at it?
1:17:41 That's why
we are all so silent?
1:17:45 Q: Wouldn't you go
a little bit deeper into the question
1:17:49 how do we get rid of the image
and the image-maker,
1:17:53 because that's the problem to me,
how to get rid of it.
1:17:57 Q: There is a difficulty here
in words - how do I get rid of it,
1:18:00 how do I wipe it away.
Surely, if it is an image,
1:18:04 I want to see that it is
an image and that's...
1:18:10 K: Sir, is the image
different from you?
1:18:15 Is the picture, the image
different from you?
1:18:21 Separate.
1:18:24 Q: I don't know.
1:18:25 K: Is it? I am asking you.
Or you are that picture?
1:18:46 Q: It seems that we have to preserve
our image we all still have.
1:18:51 K: No, I have asked
a simple question:
1:18:53 are we frightened to discuss
about our relationships?
1:18:57 Q: Yes, it would seem so
because that's...
1:19:00 K: I am just asking,
forgive me, for just two minutes,
1:19:03 you can come afterwards.
1:19:05 Are we frightened
to discuss relationship,
1:19:10 in which is involved
attachment - right? -
1:19:14 dependence,
sexual pleasures,
1:19:21 the separateness - my wife and me
are two different beings,
1:19:25 there is a division -
1:19:29 and open up this enormous
complex thing in relationship.
1:19:34 Are we frightened
to look at it?
1:19:38 Q: I don't think we are frightened,
but we don't know how to tackle it.
1:19:41 K: No, I am asking,
is anybody frightened about it?
1:19:45 Q: Yes.
Q: Yes, because..
1:19:49 K: Yes, one is frightened,
so you are avoiding it, are you?
1:19:53 Q: Yes.
1:19:56 Q: No, it seems we'll have
to start at the beginning.
1:20:01 K: Start at the beginning.
Q: Which is conflict in relationship.
1:20:05 K: Which is conflict
in relationship.
1:20:10 You are attached to me
and I like it,
1:20:14 so as long as both of us like it
there is no conflict.
1:20:18 But suppose, I begin to say,
no, sorry, don't depend on me,
1:20:22 it is rather irksome,
then conflict comes in you.
1:20:30 So again, you see...
1:20:33 I have asked this question, please
answer it, loudly or to yourself:
1:20:38 are you frightened to discuss
this whole question of relationship?
1:20:46 Q: No.
1:20:49 K: My darling,
1:20:55 wait till you get married.
1:20:58 Q: Ah, why, I am sitting here
and I want to talk about it.
1:21:00 K: Yes, I am talking.
Are you frightened?
1:21:03 Q: No.
K: Why? Why aren't you frightened?
1:21:07 Q: Because I want to find out.
K: What? Verbally?
1:21:16 Q: It seems that there is necessarily
a certain reluctance to look at it
1:21:20 because it involves the self.
1:21:21 K: No, I am asking Tura whether
she really wants to find out...
1:21:27 She has no problem now.
1:21:31 She says, I must understand
this before I plunge into all that.
1:21:35 Q: Yes.
1:21:38 K: Now, can she understand it?
1:21:42 Or must she plunge
- listen carefully -
1:21:44 or must she plunge into it
and then understand it?
1:21:48 Or can you look
at the whole thing, non-verbally
1:21:55 and see what is involved
in it and begin?
1:22:01 Q: But how can we look
at something not letting it...
1:22:04 K: Why not? Must I become a murderer
before I find out about murder?
1:22:11 Q: No, but this was
not murderer.
1:22:13 K: It is exactly
the same thing.
1:22:17 Q: We are talking
about marriage!
1:22:22 K: Are you saying
marriage is murder?
1:22:30 No, you asked me whether it is
possible to understand something
1:22:34 if you are not
experiencing it.
1:22:38 To that I said,
1:22:42 to understand murder
must you commit murder?
1:22:47 Must you get drunk
to understand sobriety?
1:22:52 Q: But we all have relationships
whether we are married or not,
1:22:55 or whether we have them just as
friends, we all have relationships.
1:22:59 K: That's the whole point.
1:23:02 If you acknowledge
that this problem of relationship
1:23:06 is one of the greatest
importance in life,
1:23:10 and I am not frightened
to look at it, to go into it,
1:23:15 see the whole picture of it,
what is its nature, its structure,
1:23:19 what is involved in it.
1:23:23 And you can only do that
if you are not frightened.
1:23:27 But at the beginning if you are
frightened you can't open the door.
1:23:35 Q: Not to be frightened
to stand alone.
1:23:40 K: No, no. You see,
you have drawn a conclusion.
1:23:45 I said do we want
to go into this question,
1:23:49 whether we are married,
not married, girlfriend,
1:23:52 or boy, and
all the rest of it,
1:23:54 what's the meaning,
and the implications,
1:23:57 and the nature, and the whole
business of relationship.
1:24:02 And I say if you really,
deeply want to go into it
1:24:06 and understand the whole...
the beauty of it,
1:24:11 the tremendous thing
involved in relationship,
1:24:14 you must approach it
without fear.
1:24:20 But if I am already caught in it,
- my wife and I -
1:24:28 I am afraid to open it
1:24:29 because something might happen
between her and me.
1:24:33 I would rather remain
in status quo, as we are,
1:24:36 rather than open the door.
That may be the most of us.
1:24:50 Q: How can I know this room
without sitting in it?
1:24:56 From outside, you mean?
1:24:58 K: No, I am asking you in return:
must I get drunk
1:25:03 to know what it means
to be drunk?
1:25:08 Must I get drunk?
1:25:12 Q: Yes, I think so.
1:25:14 K: So why should I go
through that?
1:25:18 Why should I go through being drunk?
Q: If you want to.
1:25:21 K: I don't want to drink.
It is stupid.
1:25:25 Why should I go
through that?
1:25:40 Q: I can't know you
without knowing you.
1:25:43 K: You can't know me?
1:25:44 Q: Without knowing you,
without seeing you.
1:25:46 K: You've met me,
but you can't know me.
1:25:51 You can know the picture of me,
the reputation,
1:25:58 or non-reputation about me,
and so on.
1:26:01 You can't actually know me
because the thing is living.
1:26:07 So a living thing
can never be known,
1:26:10 it is only a dead thing
that can be known.
1:26:13 So I can never say,
'I know my wife.'
1:26:21 Q: You can only follow it, stand by,
having contact, follow life.
1:26:28 K: Can you follow
the life of another?
1:26:32 All the variations,
all the subtleties,
1:26:35 all the nuances,
the movements.
1:26:38 Sir, what are we
talking about!
1:26:46 Do we want to go into
this question of relationship...
1:26:52 ... without fear?
1:26:54 Q: Yes.
1:26:59 K: Yes?
1:27:01 All of us, or one or two,
the rest say, hey!
1:27:04 go piano, piano,
non molto allegro.
1:27:19 We have come together
to have a serious enquiry
1:27:26 into our relationships,
our pleasures, our sorrows,
1:27:30 into the whole problem
of existence.
1:27:33 If you are afraid at the beginning
you can't go into it.
1:27:38 If you want to discuss fear
let's talk about it and wipe it away!
1:27:43 Not say, next year
I'll come back to fear.
1:27:48 Q: There seems to be one fundamental
question whereby this painter
1:27:57 is still painting this image,
1:28:01 because the human mind wants
to be liked, wants company.
1:28:10 K: Yes, I know all that, Tunki,
I am asking something else.
1:28:14 Before you put
your own question,
1:28:17 I put it first,
so give me... .
1:28:20 I asked you, do you really
want to go into the question
1:28:24 of the very complex
problem of fear, without fear?
1:28:31 Do you want to go into
the question of fear
1:28:33 and therefore enter into the whole
problem of relationship?
1:28:38 And you can only enter it
if you are not afraid of it.
1:28:43 Q: Yet, I can see
that I can only enter it with fear.
1:28:49 K: You can't.
Q: You can't at all?
1:28:51 K: It's like you can't climb
the Everest with all your burden.
1:28:56 Q: No.
1:28:57 K: So you throw away lots of things
and have a few things
1:29:02 - metaphorically speaking,
1:29:04 they carry a terrible
lot of things.
1:29:13 So do you want, tomorrow morning,
to discuss the question of fear?
1:29:26 What do you say, sirs,
do you want to?
1:29:29 Q: Yes.
1:29:29 Q: Is it merely fear that is preventing
us from continuing to discuss?
1:29:36 K: Yes, sir, may be.
1:29:40 Q: I question that, sir,
because I am not so sure.
1:29:46 K: Then what is preventing us
from going into it?
1:29:50 Is it verbally that we don't
understand English?
1:29:54 Don't understand the expression
of the English language,
1:29:57 and therefore
you are doubtful?
1:29:59 So let's make very clear
every word we use,
1:30:04 so that linguistically
we understand each other.
1:30:09 We are not doing anything but
just throwing words at each other.
1:30:13 Q: Sir, that is part
of the problem.
1:30:15 The problem is, here and now we don't
have a problem with relationships
1:30:19 we are only listening,
we are talking.
1:30:21 The problem is later.
1:30:24 And now we can understand the words,
that's quite easy,
1:30:29 it is not necessarily
fear of going into the problem
1:30:32 that makes it difficult.
1:30:34 Q: That may be a part of it.
1:30:38 Q: This is no time.
1:30:47 Q: I would say that
we reject, not...
1:30:50 ...because we don't have
the problem right now
1:30:52 but because we don't get
the right question to ask.
1:30:56 K: No, Tunki, that's not it.
1:30:58 I am frightened
because I have committed myself
1:31:02 to a woman or to a man,
and I call that relationship,
1:31:06 I am frightened
to open that cupboard.
1:31:12 There may be terrible
skeletons in it.
1:31:17 So I would rather discuss round it
and go anywhere but say,
1:31:22 I want to go into this,
understand it, and go fully into it.
1:31:27 But apparently you don't.
1:31:34 Q: Can we discuss tomorrow,
to go into this without fear?
1:31:37 K: Ah!
I am saying
1:31:44 - perhaps the language
difficulty is here -
1:31:46 we are saying,
you cannot understand the depth,
1:31:52 the beauty and the whole
complex question of relationship
1:31:57 if there is any kind of fear
in you, about it.
1:32:01 That's clear.
1:32:03 If I am afraid to understand
the relationship,
1:32:09 what is involved in it,
I am afraid because
1:32:13 god knows what is
going to happen.
1:32:17 I might leave my wife.
1:32:20 I am not saying that
- you follow?
1:32:22 So, I say, please,
let's talk about relationship.
1:32:37 So do we talk tomorrow morning
about fear?
1:32:49 What do you say, sirs?
1:32:54 Which means do you want to be
free of fear to live differently?
1:33:08 Q: There's tremendous fear
of going into the question, but yes.
1:33:11 K: What?
1:33:12 Q: There's enormous fear of going
into this question of what is fear.
1:33:16 K: Yes, sir. There is fear.
That's what I am saying.
1:33:21 There is fear, and how can you
examine anything if there is fear.
1:33:29 How can I understand
what love is if there is fear?
1:33:35 I can tell my wife I love her, but
it means nothing, if I am afraid.
1:33:47 Q: May I ask a question?
1:33:51 K: There is no chairman here.
1:33:55 Q: I wonder if it's possible
for us at all
1:33:59 to approach things
in this way.
1:34:03 Like today we tried
to talk about relationship
1:34:06 and we find that when we are afraid
we cannot discuss it.
1:34:10 Tomorrow we will talk about
fear, and something else
1:34:13 will stop us from talking about fear,
and then it goes on, and on.
1:34:16 K: That's right, sir.
That's what is going to happen.
1:34:17 Q: So how are we going
to approach all this?
1:34:19 K: That's what is going
to happen.
1:34:21 Therefore that means
you are not serious.
1:34:27 I want to live a life
without fear!
1:34:33 I will do anything to stop my fear
- give up my property,
1:34:39 give up my wife, give up everything
because I want to live without fear.
1:34:46 You follow?
That's the only way to find out.
1:34:50 You can't just talk about the
mountain top, you have to climb it!
1:34:58 Q: As I understand that question,
it's almost the same thing as saying,
1:35:02 I want to live a life
without any hurt.
1:35:04 K: That's right,
same thing, sir.
1:35:06 Q: And as far as I can see, we haven't
really finished with that question,
1:35:11 we haven't discovered what it means
to live a life without hurt,
1:35:14 or how one can come to that.
1:35:16 K: Look, Scott, I want to find out
why I am hurt.
1:35:23 And I find, verbally at least,
that I have got an image
1:35:28 which is going to be hurt,
and that image is me.
1:35:32 Q: Fine, but will I satisfy
with just the words?
1:35:37 K: That's a rationalisation,
logic, and all the rest of it,
1:35:40 but it isn't an actuality.
1:35:44 So how are you going
to make me understand
1:35:49 and see the actuality of it?
1:35:52 You can't do it.
1:35:56 You can't hit me on the head.
Q: No.
1:35:59 K: You can't bully me into it,
you can't persuade me into it,
1:36:02 you can't give me
a reward to see it.
1:36:04 You say, here it is,
look at it.
1:36:07 But if you refuse to look at it
what am I to do?
1:36:10 Q: Or, if one is unable
to look at it.
1:36:14 K: Why are you unable
to look at it?
1:36:18 Stop there and find out.
1:36:21 Don't go off
to something else.
1:36:23 Why are you unable
to see something dangerous?
1:36:30 Q: Because of fear.
1:36:33 K: So it may be fear - wait -
it may be habit,
1:36:37 you have never
even thought about it,
1:36:41 you are so heavily conditioned
you refuse to see it?
1:36:46 Q: Or the brain
just keeps on...
1:36:47 K: You brain may not be
active enough to see it.
1:36:53 So these are all the factors.
1:36:56 So we then have to examine
why your brain
1:37:00 when faced with something
very, very dangerous
1:37:03 refuses to see it.
1:37:06 Is it made dull by drink?
By sexual overindulgence?
1:37:11 You follow?
1:37:12 Is it by continuous traditional
acceptance of things?
1:37:20 So the brain has become
mechanical. Right?
1:37:23 And so something new put in front
of it, it says, I don't understand.
1:37:28 Is that so?
Is your brain like that?
1:37:43 Is your brain mechanical?
1:37:46 Q: It is very mechanical. But I don't
know if that's the only...
1:37:48 K: Stop there!
If it is very mechanical, why?
1:37:55 What has made it
1:38:02 Knowledge?
1:38:07 Q: Partly. Habit.
K: Habit.
1:38:09 Q: Partly.
K: Routine.
1:38:15 Can the habit be broken
1:38:21 without the man who says,
'I want to break it'?
1:38:25 Which is mechanical.
You follow?
1:38:30 So can you do all that.
1:38:32 Not take years, and years,
and days,
1:38:35 now, instantly, do it,
completely free of habit.
1:38:39 You can only do it
when you see the fact of it,
1:38:44 when you see
the danger of a habit.
1:38:48 Going day after day to the office,
you know, habit.
1:38:53 The mess of it all!
1:38:57 Q: But what comes first?
Be free to see, or see to be free?
1:39:02 K: No, no, no.
1:39:05 Why has the brain
become so mechanical?
1:39:15 You understand?
1:39:18 Is it we have accepted
tradition, habit?
1:39:25 Habit - living in a routine.
You follow?
1:39:31 So, if all these are the causes
of a mechanistic mind
1:39:37 then why don't you break it?
1:39:42 Q: Sir, somehow the self
is involved in all this.
1:39:45 K: Yes. Don't involve it.
Q: It survives and maintains itself.
1:39:49 K: That is just an avoidance
of breaking the habit
1:39:54 'self is involved'
and so on.
1:39:57 Here is a factual thing,
that is,
1:40:00 habit in any form
becomes mechanistic.
1:40:05 Habit implies mechanism,
the very meaning is a habit.
1:40:10 So the brain might
have got into the habit
1:40:16 of living this way,
and it says,
1:40:20 please leave me alone,
I am used to this, don't break it up
1:40:24 because I don't know
what will happen. You follow?
1:40:32 Q: I feel a kind of laziness
to break habits.
1:40:37 K: Yes. If it is laziness, go into it,
break it, break your laziness.
1:40:44 You see,
we all talk about this!
1:40:59 Shall we talk about fear
tomorrow morning?
1:41:03 Not for the fun of it ,
but actually say, I am afraid,
1:41:08 I want to be free
of the damn thing!
1:41:17 Then it is worth it,
it's fun to talk about it.
1:41:21 But if you say, I am afraid,
but let's talk about the window
1:41:25 there is no point.
1:41:30 Right, sirs,
it is time to stop.