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BR79DSS1.1 - Preoccupation and security
Brockwood Park, UK - 20 May 1979
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.1



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1979.
0:11 Krishnamurti: First of all, what shall we talk about?
0:24 Any suggestions? Questioner: I would like to ask if a total transformation is possible.
0:38 K: Is it possible for the human mind, as it is now, to undergo a radical change?
0:51 Is that what you want to talk about? (Pause) Is that what you all want to talk about?
1:08 Before we go into that question, is it possible that we all can think together, have one mind?
1:42 Because this may be of interest, because each one has his own particular opinion, his own particular, narrow prejudices, his own tendencies, conclusions and obvious points of view.
2:08 So we’re always acting separately, we’re always thinking differently from another, and so our actions are always contradicting and opposing others.
2:42 So I’m asking if it is possible for us all to think together, see the same thing clearly together, understand the same thing together and act together.
3:10 You understand my question?
3:20 Take for instance, during war – any particular war – a nation, a great community, a society, they all come together, they all think together, they’re all sacrificing together, they are all working together because the danger is so great from outside, their security is so threatened – their houses, their families, their property, their money – they’re so threatened from outside, so they all come together and if there is anybody who objects to this, he’s either shot or put in prison or somehow isolated.
4:24 So apparently, under great pressure, under great disaster threatening all individuals, all community, people seem to gather together and work together, think together, act together.
4:55 Moment the crisis, the war, the disaster is over, each one separates, acts on his own, exerts his own particular desire, his own particular demand and so on.
5:20 So I’m asking if it is possible, in a small community like this, whether we could all think together; which doesn’t mean that you agree together, which doesn’t mean that we all become automatic, robots, but thinking together, having one mind, is that possible?
6:06 That is, probably, a beginning of a transformation, beginning of radical change in the human mind because the human mind is so conditioned to act separately all the time – the Frenchman, the English, the British, the American, the … – and within the nation each individual and each group is breaking away, so I’m asking, is it possible for us all, without any pressure, without any sense of disaster, without threatening our particular lives, as war and so on, can we all have one mind?
7:17 Because during… if you have observed – you must know history better than I do, but I have observed a great deal.
7:35 The Catholics – I’m taking that as an example – at one time, believed in one thing and were all working for that: for their dogma, for their rituals, for their hierarchical structure, they were completely united in a belief and they were a separate group.
8:09 Opposed to that, the Protestants, breaking away from the Catholic dogma, they formed their own dogma and formed their own little group or big groups.
8:26 We are asking whether we could have one mind thinking together without the pressure of belief, the pressure of dogma, conforming to a pattern, but yet have a mind that is completely together, whole.
9:01 You understand my question?
9:16 That means, can we see the same thing together, hear the same thing actually together?
9:36 Not I hear one thing and you hear another, I interpret what I hear and you interpret in a different way, but hear the same thing.
9:48 You follow what I’m…? I hope you’re… You… after I have talked a little, you… let’s talk it over, let’s have a dialogue. You question me and we’ll question each other and answer each other, so that we begin to learn how to… we begin to learn to think clearly, to think objectively, not personally; and so it may be possible together have the capacity of one mind, which is not opposing each other, by opinion, by judgment, by desires.
10:45 This is going to be very difficult. So is that possible? Which is possible under a great crisis – you...? – under a… if you have a war tomorrow we’re all… jump into it because personally we are threatened and there is a vast propaganda going on and so on, so on, so on.
11:25 You see the problem, clearly? Are you interested in this?
11:38 Are you?
11:39 Q: Yes.
11:42 K: Because living together we have to co-operate, in a small community like this we have to cooperate.
11:57 We have to take responsibilities together. We have to act together. We have to see things as they are – not as you see it, as somebody else sees it – so that our action is not contradictory, not personal, not my action and your action and so on.
12:34 If you understand this question very clearly, which is: is it possible to have one mind, all of us?
12:57 Which doesn’t mean, as I explained very carefully, accepting or rejecting, agreeing or not agreeing, opposing one opinion against another opinion, saying it is my temperament opposing to your temperament – is this possible?
13:33 Q: Isn’t the fact that we’re all living together here as a community our challenge?
13:56 Isn’t the fact that we’re all living here together as a community the challenge?
14:02 K: Yes. But it’s not a challenge that demands all your attention.
14:10 It isn’t something that you’re threatened.
14:12 Q: No, that’s why we have problems because we…
14:17 K: Yeah, that’s why you… each one does what he likes.
14:20 Q: Right. Yes.
14:22 K: We are… which means when we are one mind, we are totally responsible.
14:29 Not I say, ‘You are responsible for this, I am responsible…,’ we are responsible: the sense of feeling responsibility.
14:41 Not for something but the feeling of it. Now, are you interested in this?
14:52 Q: Yes.
14:54 K: No, be clear. Don’t agree quickly because this is…
15:03 Which implies that you put aside your opinion, your… say, ‘I must do this, this is what I want to do,’ and put aside your inclination, and see if we can all think together.
15:36 So this is the beginning of transformation.
15:43 Because… – you understand? – transformation isn’t just by yourself, it is transformation because you are not by yourself.
15:57 You represent the world.
16:00 Q: Sir, there appears to be a contradiction in the question, that since thought is the mode of operation and it has a dividing influence…
16:20 K: We are going to go into that, sir, first I want to be clear that we understand the question, understand the implications of that question.
16:38 That is, under a great crisis like a war, we send our sons, we are... we come together, work together, die together.
17:06 You have lived in countries where they have been wars, perhaps say restrict our eating, foods, everything together, and therefore, being together, there is a responsibility.
17:31 If you see a light through a dark curtain during air raids, you go… you take responsibility.
17:40 You say... go into the house and say, ‘Look.’ You are tremendously alert.
17:50 I wonder if you see all this.
17:57 Because you know your own security is threatened. You may... Your security is in the nation, your property, everything is threatened. Here, there’s no threat.
18:19 There is no pressure. There isn’t a sense of… There is each one doing what he likes.
18:30 Q: Yes.
18:33 K: There, in a war, there is self-imposed discipline, there is no grumbling, except superficially.
18:47 There is a sense of great, alert, self-sacrificing responsibility.
18:57 You...? Are we...? All this is implied when we ask the question, ‘Is it possible to have one mind?’ I do not know if you see how extraordinarily important it is.
19:33 When two people are married, when there is a husband, wife, they… – at the beginning, they may later on break up – but there is a sense of working together, there’s a sense of being… doing things together, there is a sense of co-operation, there is no grumbling, there is no saying, ‘I want to do this, you do this...’ – it’s together they are doing.
20:04 That soon breaks up because for various reasons, ultimately a divorce and all the rest of it.
20:14 But here, which is part of our education, which is to learn, to find out what co-operation means, which is, co-operation can only exist when both of us are together.
20:37 I wonder if you get all this.
20:47 Am I...? And see what is much more deeply involved in this.
21:03 Are you following all this? Are you interested in it?
21:16 (Pause) You see, thinking is always limited.
21:35 I don’t know if you’re…
21:45 Ah?
21:46 Q: Yes.
21:50 K: Now, do you know you are thinking?
22:00 Are you aware what you are thinking about?
22:07 Are you aware how your thinking operates, comes into being?
22:15 Are you aware that this thinking, being limited, therefore being limited it becomes narrow.
22:32 I don’t know… This is… Am I…? Are we all together in…? Am I…? Are you following this, or too much?
22:49 Q: Yes.
22:50 K: You two seem to agree and he, but the rest.
23:00 Alors?
23:08 What do you say? Now – wait a minute – I’ll take one thing.
23:25 Can we all see together the implications of a belief?
23:45 Together. That is see the... how it arises, what is its nature, what is its movement and discover for ourselves its destructive nature, it’s destructive in the sense separative: that is, you believe in one thing and another believes in something else.
24:19 You are a… what? What do you believe in? Stephen Smith: Sir, could we take an example which is probably more applicable here, which is, for instance, to talk about the nature of preoccupation.
24:41 K: Preoccupation?
24:42 SS: Yes, for instance, I may be preoccupied with what I’m doing, or I may be preoccupied with my success in the exams, or in my… what I’m going to be doing immediately, so my mind is on that.
24:57 So being on that, I’m not able to look at the whole thing. I think that’s probably more relevant.
25:00 K: All right, all right. All right, let’s take that. Are you preoccupied about exams, about what you are going to do when you leave here, about a job, about where you are going, to what college, to what university, to what your career, etc., etc. – are you preoccupied?
25:36 Why? Now, let us think together, not agree together, let’s find out together why our minds are preoccupied or occupied.
26:06 Right? Why?
26:12 Q: It seems to be necessary to make preparations.
26:17 K: Go on. That is, preparation for the future.
26:22 Q: Yes sir.
26:25 K: Right?
26:27 Q: Yes.
26:29 K: Ah? What does that mean? Careful, look at it together: not your opinion, my opinion, his, hers.
26:42 Together find out, why we are concerned about the future – that is, when you leave – future.
26:51 Now – wait a minute – what do you mean by the word future?
27:03 Go on, sirs.
27:13 You are not occupied about tomorrow. Little bit.
27:19 Q: Yes.
27:21 K: But you are occupied four months later: what might happen, what you want to do, what…
27:33 whether you should go there, there, there, whether you should have this career or that career, whether you should marry this, this and so on – future.
27:43 Right? Future isn’t only tomorrow but long.
27:48 Q: Yes.
27:49 K: So the whole of that is future. The tomorrow or this evening... Careful, follow this carefully, we’re all thinking together. Please, don’t agree with me. Future implies the next minute, next hour, this evening, next… tomorrow, next week and next year – all that is future.
28:24 Right? Right? Do you…? We must see this together. Now, why are you occupied about future, which is a year later – right? – and not occupied about this evening or the next hour, which is still the future?
28:52 I wonder if you see this.
28:54 Q: You’re also occupied with that. You’re also occupied with that, not only with a year later.
28:59 K: Occupied with?
29:01 Q: With that.
29:03 Q: With the next hour.
29:06 Q: It’s the same concern.
29:07 K: That’s what I’m asking: is… when you say we’re occupied with the future, is the future far away, distance or very near?
29:19 Q: Can be both.
29:21 K: Wait, wait. So, future, we are trying to understand the meaning of that word.
29:32 It is not only the next second, but the… ten hours later.
29:40 Right? Why?
29:42 Q: Because we know what’s going to happen probably tomorrow, so we don’t worry about it.
29:53 K: So you’re not bothered about tomorrow because you have already thought it out.
29:57 Q: Yes.
30:01 K: Allez-y. Go on. You have thought it out for tomorrow and you can’t think it out, think out very clearly what you… a year later.
30:18 So what your mind is occupied with is year later. Right?
30:24 Q: Yes.
30:26 K: Daphne, n’est-ce pas? C’est Daphne, n’est-ce pas? So future implies not only the second... now, a second later, but also a long distance.
30:51 And why are you occupied?
30:53 Q: You’re pressured.
30:57 K: You are under pressure.
30:59 Q: Yes.
31:00 Q: You have to make preparations and do things.
31:05 K: You have to make a preparation for the future.
31:11 Q: Yes.
31:13 K: What is the future?
31:20 (Pause) Ah, you don’t get this.
31:31 Q: I think we have some idea how it could be.
31:33 K: Yes.
31:34 Q: And because of that, we want to avoid certain things...
31:42 K: Quite.
31:44 Q: ...and want to have other things.
31:46 K: That is, what you might be a year later – right? – which depends what you are now.
32:01 We are thinking together, I’m not…
32:04 Q: Yes.
32:05 K: If you’re not clear now, if you’re not straight now, if you’re not objective now – you’re following all this? – the future will be equally uncertain.
32:24 Q: Right.
32:26 K: Have you got this?
32:29 Q: Yes.
32:30 K: Do you agree to…? Not agree... (Laughter) see the same thing together.
32:34 Q: Sir, so when we are talking about… when we’re looking into the future and certain…
32:42 up to a point, we make certain plans or whatever, which are necessary, but are we talking about a way of being preoccupied with the future, which prevents you from being… from seeing clearly what’s happening now?
33:06 K: Yes. Say, I have to go to the dentist next week or this week.
33:16 I have to telephone him, make arrangements, appointment, all the rest of it.
33:25 That is, I have planned.
33:28 Q: Yeas.
33:29 K: Right?
33:30 Q: Yes.
33:31 K: Because I have got toothache or something is wrong, so I plan. Now, carefully, watch this carefully; follow it carefully.
33:45 So I am uncertain now, and I plan for the future.
33:58 If I am very certain – go slowly, don’t agree, just look at it. You’re all too quick to disagree and agree. I’ve got to prevent you from doing that. I hope you don’t mind.
34:19 Now I am confused, uncertain, I don’t know quite what to do, and I’m planning, year later or six weeks later.
34:36 The planning is born out of my confusion, my uncertainty, my vagueness, but I make the future very clear or I think I have made the future very clear.
34:54 I don’t know if you are following this.
35:01 If I am clear now, I’ll be clear then. If I am not confused now, I’ll plan clearly, but being uncertain, wanting this and wanting that and – you know? – going through all the turmoil, I’m suddenly caught with the idea I must prepare for the future.
35:32 Q: Well, it seems not to be that easy, you know.
35:41 K: Nothing is easy. (Laughs) You want an easy life – can’t be had.
35:45 Q: Sir, surely when one is making… like you have mentioned going to the dentist or something, one does not doing it because…
35:55 K: Because you’re not preoccupied, you arrange it.
36:00 Q: You’re just doing it... (inaudible)...
36:01 K: Yes. I’m asking you why you are preoccupied.
36:06 Q: I don’t quite see the difference.
36:11 K: What?
36:12 Q: Of planning to go to the dentist and what you’re going to do.
36:17 K: Now, so what are you planning? From what source, from what…?
36:28 What is the state of your mind from which you are planning?
36:36 Q: Well, I’m clear I need to earn a living.
36:40 K: Now, wait a minute.
36:42 Q: That’s...
36:43 K: You have to earn a living?
36:44 Q: Yes.
36:46 K: So you say, ‘Now, what shall I do? Which is the best way to earn a livelihood?’ Right?
36:57 Go on... Think together, move together.
37:08 I have to earn a livelihood. Now, is that livelihood being dictated by my parents, by my…
37:23 – I’m going carefully – by my desire, which is to have more money, more security, more better house – you follow? – desire or is… am I thinking a job which will be satisfactory, fulfil my capacity – right? – from what background are you preparing?
38:07 Q: What I love doing, in my case.
38:10 K: Yes. I’m asking you. What is the state of your mind that says, ‘I will do that’? You are following all this?
38:26 Q: Yes.
38:31 K: Look, I want to be an artist – wait, wait – or I want to be a professor, or I want to have money, business.
38:47 Right? So I plan. What is the urge for money, wanting to be an artist, wanting to have a good professorial job and so on?
39:07 What is the motive, what is the urge that directs me?
39:17 Because you are faced with this, all of you. Right? So let us think together, that’s my… because this is a common factor that you are being directed, under pressure, driven, and I ask, ‘What is the source of this movement?’ You understand my...?
39:52 You want to be an artist – why? Go into it, carefully. You want to be a businessman, or you want to be an engineer, or a doctor, or… – we wouldn’t want that – or a man who is really highly cultured, highly good.
40:22 Q: Yes.
40:27 K: So what is your drive? Or you say, ‘I have no drive, but I’ll do something or other.’ Right?
40:44 Think it out together, please. Because this is a common problem for all of us, isn’t it?
40:57 So, you… Can we all see together the drive, the motive, the urge, the compulsion?
41:07 Q: Sir, is it that if one is preoccupied with the future, it’s because one is confused or uncertain, feels insecure about the moment that’s facing us now?
41:23 K: And fear. Because the world is…
41:27 Q: Yes.
41:28 Q: Yes, the world is threatening, it seems.
41:33 K: There is a… I mean, you follow? For one job, there’re a thousand people. So you have to go into all this: fear, the urge to be safe, the urge to find some form of security, the urge to become great, the urge to be a rich man, the urge to be a politician, to be something.
42:29 Right?
42:30 Q: Isn’t it that once you have planned you feel secure?
42:40 Q: Once you have a plan you feel secure.
42:43 K: Yes, once you have a plan you feel somewhat secure. Many: Yes.
42:48 K: Which means that, I said that – security, fear, desire for money, position, this or that.
42:58 That is, you want to be something: engineer, politician, a doctor; that is, you want to be something in the line of careers.
43:18 Right?
43:19 Q: Yes.
43:20 K: You want to be a doctor. Right?
43:24 Q: Well, isn’t it so that you need to be something?
43:33 K: I’m… Wait, sir. We are thinking together. You’re not saying… I’m not opposing to being something. Let’s find out. So you want to be something out there – engineer, scientist, physicist, doctor – that is, you are thinking in terms of a career, in terms of becoming a doctor.
44:10 I’m not objecting to… we are thinking together.
44:15 Q: Sir, doesn’t it seem to be the actual… one is… you’re not actually talking about acquiring a particular skill, we’re talking about…
44:29 Q: Yes.
44:30 K: The skill which will give you a job.
44:34 Q: But more than that, we create a kind of picture. We make a picture into the future.
44:40 K: Of course. You make an image because you have got a skill as a doctor. You have learnt, you have studied for seven years and so on, you have got a certain knowledge, skill of your hands and you say, ‘I’m going to be surgeon,’ but it is all based on becoming something out there – right? – in the society.
45:12 Q: But it depends what are your reasons for wanting to become a doctor.
45:21 K: Yes. A better.. is it?
45:24 Q: A doctor. Because, like, some people want to become doctor because it will give them a lot of money, but others because they want to cure people, because they like them.
45:35 K: Yes. But they’re all on the same principle, aren’t they? Becoming something or be something.
45:42 Q: Yes.
45:43 K: That’s all my point. Is that clear, Daphne? No, pas. What are you objecting to?
45:54 Q: Well, you seem to say that the only reason why you want to become something is for the position and not for what it implies to be that thing, that…
46:08 K: Your position and not what is.
46:12 Q: Yes.
46:14 Q: People are interested in the position of being a doctor and not in actually being one for the… you know?
46:25 Q: Krishnaji, is perhaps the difficulty that I may be preoccupied with being a doctor, or on the other hand, I may be studying now and later become a doctor, but I’m not preoccupied with that, I’m...
46:41 K: No. But...
46:43 Q: Is this, maybe, the difference?
46:44 K: Yes, you are studying in order to become a doctor...
46:48 Q: Yes.
46:49 K: ...a surgeon and so on, but… which implies you are, through learning, through accumulated knowledge you become that, an engineer.
47:04 That’s not what Daphne is saying, she is saying something else.
47:09 Q: She said some people may become a doctor just for the thing of curing people and things like that, rather than the position.
47:18 K: But to cure people, not as a position, skill, you must have knowledge to be a doctor.
47:30 Q: Yes.
47:31 K: My point is – you are… (laughs) – our… my point is all this is to become something.
47:40 Right?
47:41 Q: Yes.
47:43 K: I’m not saying it’s right or wrong.
47:48 Q: Right, right. That’s right.
47:50 K: To become something out there, in this society.
47:58 Right? Do we see all this clearly?
48:01 Q: Yes.
48:02 Q: I don’t think one merely projects into the future because one wants to become something, but also because one may be simply confused or unsure of what is happening to one at the moment, but one may not be thinking of becoming something, but they want to be clear about something and so they say, ‘Well, perhaps in the future I’ll be clear.’ K: Yes.
48:25 You are confused – if one is confused, uncertain – you want to be clear.
48:33 You want to be certain, but it’s still becoming something.
48:37 Q: Right.
48:39 K: Right? Either out there in the world or in here. Oh, it took us a long time, doesn’t it?
48:51 Q: (Laughter) K: Right? Do we all see this?
48:55 Q: Yes.
48:56 K: Together – I’m not imposing it on you. That all our education, all our endeavour, experience is to be there, something, or be something here, become something here.
49:14 Right? Is that what you are preoccupied with?
49:22 Q: Yes.
49:35 K: Right?
49:38 Q: Krishnaji, I think there’s also another factor and that is I may be preoccupied not because I want to become something but because I’m frightened of perhaps my relationships…
49:51 K: Yes, which is…
49:53 Q: …frightened of...
49:54 K: …I’m frightened of my relationship, therefore I want to be free of that relationship or to change that relationship or to be free of that fear.
50:04 Q: That’s right.
50:05 K: It is still becoming.
50:06 Q: Yes.
50:07 Q: Right now, I’m secure. Right now, I’m secure. And I know I will be secure for maybe two years or three years more, so I’m not…
50:20 K: Occupied.
50:22 Q: …I’m not occupied.
50:24 K: No, because…
50:25 Q: But I’m occupied with the thought that, after three years, will I be as secure as I am right now.
50:32 K: No. That’s it...
50:34 Q: I’m not worried about whether I’ll be having a high position in society, but whether...
50:40 K: Yes sir, that’s... You are now secure and you are preoccupied whether you will be equally secure in five years’ time – it’s the same.
50:48 Q: It’s the same, yes.
50:51 K: So, is this clear? Are we all together in this? Thinking together, not… I’m not imposing it. So what do you mean by becoming? You understand…? Now we have understood the word becoming. To be a doctor, to be a scientist, to become through knowledge, skill, and all the rest of it, a surgeon, or a physicist and so on; which is…
51:30 What is it? I won’t tell you. Go on. What is it?
51:44 Look at it, carefully, together.
51:53 To be something out there. Right?
51:57 Q: Yes.
51:58 K: Because in our eyes, in our thoughts, in our imagination, security, position, money – right?
52:13 – certainty, right? We want to be certain. If I have a good knowledge as a surgeon, I feel secure.
52:29 Q: Yes.
52:32 K: I feel safe, I feel I’m protected.
52:40 If I am… If I have no job, if I don’t consider that, I’ll feel frightened because I don’t fit in there.
52:52 Q: Right.
52:54 K: So basically, I want to be certain. All right? Are you getting tired?
53:03 Q: No.
53:04 K: Are you all thinking together? Are we? I won’t… we won’t go any further till we see this together.
53:20 I am not certain now, because I may not have a good job, therefore I want to be certain of a good job, certain that I will have money, certain that I will be something, and so on: that is, I want to be safe, secure, in some profession.
53:49 Q: Right.
53:51 K: Right?
53:53 Q: Yes.
53:54 K: And inwardly, also, it is exactly the same thing.
54:01 Q: Yes.
54:02 K: Right? Right? You are following all this? Out there I want to be secure, in here I also want to be secure.
54:13 The security there is jobs, money, position, that.
54:22 Here, inside, I also want to be completely safe, unfrightened, etc., etc.
54:34 Are we see this together? Do you? I want to be married to somebody whom I love. I want to be completely safe. Poor devils. (Laughter) I want to be safe in there and out here.
55:05 Secure. That is my… that is our preoccupation.
55:09 Q: Right.
55:10 K: Right?
55:11 Q: I’m not too sure about whether a person – even if he wants to – could be secure from feeling frightened.
55:21 K: We’re going to find out. We’re going to find out together if there is security at all.
55:32 Don’t be frightened.
55:40 (Laughter) I thought I would be secure by becoming a surgeon, so I study, go to college, etc., etc., seven years, and I practice, and my mind is seeking security there in that profession.
56:11 I’ll end up in Harley Street – you know Harley Street?
56:18 No. That’s the doctor’s street, all the fashionable doctors are there.
56:27 And they are competing… everybody is competing with me to be in Harley Street.
56:34 See, see the… Don’t just say, ‘I want to be secure in that profession, but there are a thousand people competing with me.’ Q: Sir, it seems that this process of wanting to become is very divisive, because it means that you have to… you divorce yourself from other people to get what you want.
56:59 K: I’m going to find out. We say, ‘I must have that job.’ You know, I saw an advertisement for a cook in India.
57:15 They were offering, I have forgotten the amount of money.
57:24 Do you know who came? PhDs, MAs, a thousand people wanting that... to be a cook.
57:38 So what have we seen together now? Together, not… you can’t… if we see the thing together, tomorrow you can’t change it.
57:50 That’s my point – see the thing together. That is, we all want to be secure financially.
58:02 Right? Position. Position…with it goes cars, respect – you know? – you’re a big man, all that’s implied… don’t sneer at it.
58:23 All that is involved. Nobody wants to be a cook. Right? Do we see this thing? That is, we all want to be secure in some particular occupation and we are going to inquire, together, what do you mean by security.
58:58 Ravi says he is secure now, because his father gives him…
59:08 sends him here, the father is working somewhere and earning money, supports him and for the moment he’s completely safe and he says, ‘My God, shall I be equally safe five years later?’ So I want to be secure there, I want to be secure here, inside.
59:40 Right? I wonder if you… Right? We’re all… see the thing together. I’m not… Don’t camouflage that word secure, by saying, ‘Oh, it’s romantic, it’s lovely, it is this or that.’ It is security you want.
1:00:04 Right? Don’t call it ‘helping people’, ‘creative work’, ‘I am… it is my tendency, my desire, my…’ – you follow? – then you deceive yourself.
1:00:25 So let us face facts. Now, why does the mind seek security?
1:00:36 I’m not saying it’s wrong to seek security.
1:00:44 Why? There and here.
1:00:49 Q: Well, you see the necessity of it.
1:00:56 K: There.
1:00:57 Q: Yes.
1:00:58 K: You see you must have clothes...
1:00:59 Q: Food and... yes.
1:01:01 K: ...food, shelter and as society is so organised now, you have to fight for it.
1:01:09 Q: Yes.
1:01:10 K: You have to struggle for it, whether you are living in a communist society, totalitarian society or in a democratic society, you have got to work for it.
1:01:23 Q: Right.
1:01:26 K: And that‘s our preoccupation.
1:01:27 Q: Excuse me, sir, it doesn’t seem to be… it’s not… we said earlier it wasn’t the work that was the preoccupation, the preoccupation was the security and the... (inaudible)...
1:01:33 K: That’s what I’m saying.
1:01:36 Q: … not... not fulfilling one’s needs.
1:01:40 K: You’re not occupied with working but preoccupied with becoming, being secure.
1:01:47 Right?
1:01:48 Q: They’re inseparable.
1:01:50 K: Of course, they’re… the means and the end are inseparable. I mustn’t go into that. Right. Right? One can understand that one must have some kind of security physically.
1:02:13 Q: Yes.
1:02:15 K: Right? Careful now, carefully go into this. Don’t agree or disagree, because we are thinking together. At the end of it, don’t say, ‘I disagree with you. I don’t see it clearly.’ We’ll go step by step, till each one of us sees it together, not I see it and you don’t see it, or you see it and I don’t see it.
1:02:47 We all see together that we must have physical security: food, clothes, shelter and some comfort, car, this or…
1:02:59 We need that. Right? Right?
1:03:14 Q: Yes.
1:03:23 K: Why are you preoccupied about it?
1:03:33 (Pause) Q: Because we have some idea of how it could be or of how it is and we don’t have these things: cars, money, etc.
1:03:42 K: No, you’re not answering my question. Why are you occupied about it? Agreed, we all see we must have clothes, food, shelter, comfort, physical security, whether you are a monk or artist, business man, whatever it is, you must have certain security.
1:04:13 But why are you occupied about it?
1:04:22 Q: I am not sure it’s physical security that we are occupied by, most of us, here.
1:04:28 K: Which means what?
1:04:30 Q: I think that most of us can rely on having physical security. It seems to be another sort of security that we’re more preoccupied by.
1:04:40 K: Are you… is one frightened of not having physical security in the future, therefore you’re occupied?
1:04:48 Q: I don’t think it’s physical security, though. It doesn’t seem to be physical security.
1:04:53 K: Yes, I’m talking of physical. I am talking about having physical security.
1:05:01 Q: I think it disturbs more younger people who know that their parents are not going to support them. Whether... after you have a job already, like people here, the older people, then this might not bother you.
1:05:15 K: I’m... it bothers all of us, don’t worry.
1:05:18 Q: Well, Wendy seems to be saying that it doesn’t… she doesn’t feel that physical security is what bothers us.
1:05:25 It bothers me, personally.
1:05:27 K: Yes. I’m asking you – you and all of us – why are we preoccupied with having physical security?
1:05:38 What is this source of this preoccupation?
1:05:41 Q: Fear.
1:05:43 K: Careful, answer... Look at it, carefully, so that we all think together.
1:05:51 Q: Once you become a doctor then do you stop being preoccupied about security?
1:06:03 K: Oh, no. (Laughs) Poor chap. There’s a better doctor next door, getting more money, bigger house.
1:06:15 No, you are missing...
1:06:22 I am… Keep to this. Why are you preoccupied about physical security?
1:06:29 Q: Because we want to insure against the future.
1:06:37 K: You want to be sure.
1:06:41 Q: Insure.
1:06:42 Q: Like insurance.
1:06:44 Q: Insure.
1:06:45 K: You’re… that is, you are frightened that you might not.
1:06:51 Q: Right. Yes.
1:06:54 K: Right?
1:06:55 Q: Yes.
1:06:57 K: Are you getting this? You are frightened now that you might not be able to get this, therefore you’re preoccupied about it.
1:07:09 Right? Are we all together…? I’m sorry to repeat this (laughs) mantram or this…
1:07:20 Are we all together in this, that we all see this thing?
1:07:27 I am frightened… one is frightened of not having security in the future.
1:07:39 Right? Do you see that? Or is it verbally you see it? Is it an actual fact or an idea?
1:07:57 You understand what I’m saying? Actual fact. Yes, I’m really frightened about not having security out there, therefore I’m preoccupied.
1:08:13 I say, ‘My God what shall I do? I’m… Tell me,’ I get jittery, I get anxious, I feel fearful, I feel uncertain, and I get nervous breakdown.
1:08:35 So – right? Not having… no. I may not have it, therefore I am occupied myself with, ‘I may not have it.’ Right?
1:08:57 Are you following this? Not following it, seeing the thing together.
1:09:12 So what is the next step?
1:09:14 Q: Sir, isn’t that very unreal? It’s quite unreal, I mean, to say, ‘I may not have that’ is…
1:09:25 K: No. I did not say that. I said the world, as it is now, I am occupied, preoccupied that I may not have security – physical security.
1:09:44 I may have a job, I may become a doctor, but I have to fight to become a doctor and to have a position as a… because there’re a hundred thousand doctors fighting.
1:09:58 You follow? So I am anxious, I’m frightened, I’m occupied with that problem.
1:10:07 Q: Isn’t this, though, isn’t it a natural instinct?
1:10:13 K: I don’t know. Why do you say ‘a natural instinct’?
1:10:18 Q: Because animals seem to prepare themselves for the winter, like they…
1:10:23 K: Animals don’t… They are not preoccupied of not having food day after tomorrow.
1:10:30 Q: Well yes, they store food for themselves and they prepare shelter.
1:10:33 K: In their tummy, yes, hide it, but they’re not preoccupied with it. They do it.
1:10:40 Q: But I don’t see the difference.
1:10:45 K: Go slowly, go slowly, go slowly. Let’s look at it, carefully. Now, see this thing... In a moment, you will see what we are leading up to. I’m not leading you to something. That is, we say security out there – right? – which means position, money, all that.
1:11:12 To have that, I must have certain skills, the skills can be cultivated through study, exams, all that.
1:11:29 And also, I know very carefully, inwardly, there might not be this thing, because there are other people also fighting for that – working, competing, more and more.
1:11:48 Consciously I want that, unconsciously also I say, ‘By Jove, look what is happening.’ So what is the… then what?
1:12:07 Carefully, observe the fact first. The fact: wanting to be secure, the uncertainty of the future and therefore this occupation about the future.
1:12:28 When you see that very clearly – all of us, not me or you, see this fact very clearly – what’s the next movement?
1:12:43 (Pause) Come on, sirs.
1:12:59 Q: Well, what are the implications of being preoccupied... (inaudible)?
1:13:10 K: We said that. We made it very clear. I am occupied, preoccupied about the future, wanting security there. That’s my preoccupation. I’m secure now, as he pointed out. I am secure because my father, my… etc., etc., or I have a job, or I say, ‘This is what I want to do, I’m fairly… but I am also uncertain whether I’m capable, whether somebody is going to throw me out’ – you follow? – all that’s involved.
1:13:47 And being young, being unclear, so I say, ‘My God, what’s going to happen in the future to me?’ and therefore, I am occupied about that.
1:14:04 And I say, ‘Why are you occupied?’, if that is certain then you wouldn’t be occupied.
1:14:11 Q: Right.
1:14:13 K: Watch it, watch it. If that is certain, like the aristocracy of part of this England, they are quite sure they’ll next…
1:14:23 They have their houses, their... They are lords, and they are this or that, they are completely secure, up to a point.
1:14:31 There might be a revolution, the Labour party might come in tomorrow and say, ‘Get out,’ and they would all be like you and me.
1:14:40 Q: Right.
1:14:43 K: So, do you see this fact?
1:14:50 Not as an idea – fact.
1:14:52 Q: But you’re also certain that if you work now, you will be secure.
1:15:01 K: Wait. y Yes, of course – we’ve said that – if you work now hard enough, get a… pass your exams, but also there is… I said to you, also, there is ten thousand people doing the same thing, and uncertain too: you might not pass exams, the papers might be much too difficult, therefore you struggle, struggle, struggle, which is your occupation, which is the same thing.
1:15:30 Right? So...
1:15:34 Q: Would you say you’re only occupied… you’re not occupied when you’re completely certain?
1:15:45 Isn’t that what is implied in what you’re saying?
1:15:50 K: If your father or your somebody is completely secure – he has got property, he has got money, he has got… – you follow? – you feel, ‘When he dies, I’ll step into his shoes, I’m quite sure’, but there might be a revolution, there might be new laws, greater taxes, so you say, ‘My God’; you know all this, consciously or unconsciously, so you’re uncertain and therefore you begin.
1:16:22 Q: So you’re actually...
1:16:23 K: You’re not seeing the thing. You’re not seeing the fact, which is: you want to be certain, secure, and to achieve that certainty, security, you study, you prepare; but also you say, ‘By Jove, I might not get it.’ Q: Right.
1:16:58 K: ‘It’s too difficult for me.’ So there is anxiety, fear, and the occupation that you might not – the whole thing is that.
1:17:11 Now, wait a minute, please. Do you see that as a fact, not as an idea, say, ‘Yes, this is so,’ unrelated to what actually in you is taking place?
1:17:27 Now, if you see a fact – careful, careful, I want all of us to think together – if you see this fact, the fact being preparing now for the future in order to be certain and secure and also realising you may not, and the occupation… preoccupation that you might not.
1:18:02 So that’s a fact.
1:18:09 Right? Right? Then what is the next thing? (Pause) You’re faced now with something, aren’t you?
1:18:37 Right? See this clearly. You’re faced with a tremendous problem, not just, ‘I won’t... future is certain, I am going to work for it.’ You are faced with something that you have to resolve.
1:19:02 Q: You stop, because you see that there is no such thing as certainty in the future.
1:19:10 K: So what does that…? Careful now. Do you see – see – that there is no absolute security in the future, which you want?
1:19:27 Q: Right.
1:19:28 K: Right? Do you see that? Do we all see that? Now, when you say, ‘I see very clearly there is no absolute security which I want in the future,’ what makes you say… what tells you you see it?
1:20:02 You understand my question? No, you haven’t understood it. Do you actually see the fact that the urge for complete security in the future may not have what you want, may not give you what you want?
1:20:29 Do you see that? Or is it a verbal comprehension?
1:20:41 Q: You know it, it just...
1:20:44 K: It is so.
1:20:45 Q: You’re not bothered anymore.
1:20:46 K: Wait, wait – it is so.
1:20:50 Q: Yes.
1:20:51 K: Right? You can’t change that.
1:20:59 It is so. Right? Now, how will you deal with the fact?
1:21:22 You see, we are dealing with fact – not with ideas, not with the future. Please get this. We are not talking about the future, whether there’s security or not security, certainty or not certainty, but your preoccupation with it; your preoccupation is born out of your uncertainty, which is out of fear, and so you see that as a reality, as you see the reality of this microphone – as real as this.
1:22:08 Right? Do you...? Wait, careful – together. Do you see this as an immovable fact?
1:22:25 Ravi, do you see it? No? What do you mean, ‘No’? I’ve been talking about... Are you listening to what we’re saying or you’re off to somewhere else? (Laughs) Q: It’s kind of breaking up.
1:22:44 K: Yes, you’re off somewhere else. That’s all right – I’m not saying it’s wrong. Come back. (Laughter) Do you see the fact that you are frightened, now being secure, but later on in five years time, you may not be secure, therefore you’re occupied with it, therefore you say, ‘I’m anxious, I’m frightened, I may not be.’ That’s a fact.
1:23:19 Right? That’s a fact for all of us, not you alone, all of us, that’s a fact.
1:23:32 Right? Do you see it as a fact or as an idea?
1:23:48 You can’t have an idea. It is so. Wait, careful now; no, don’t move from that. It is so – you can’t have an idea about it. My nose is crooked, it is a fact; or it’s straight, it’s a fact. I am blind or myopic or half-vision, it’s a fact.
1:24:20 I don’t say, ‘Well, I see very clearly when I half...’– it’s so.
1:24:24 Q: Right.
1:24:25 K: Is this as actual as that? I won’t… Unless we all see this thing as a fact, like that… that’s a carpet. We have called it a carpet. We have all agreed that’s a carpet. You mightn’t like the colour of it, this, that, the other, but that’s generally called ‘a carpet’.
1:24:51 You can’t call that ‘the sky’. If we all agreed that’s the sky, that’s all right. (Laughs) Q: Well, one may decide to take his chance, and see that – knowing that it’s… there is no certainty...
1:25:08 – K: So you say, ‘Well, let’s see what happens.’ Yes.
1:25:12 Q: ‘Let’s see what happens.’ Yes. I’ll go and study and maybe I won’t be a doctor.
1:25:15 K: Wait, wait. In that state, you’re not preoccupied.
1:25:18 Q: Doesn’t it… isn’t it a waste of time...
1:25:24 K: Which?
1:25:25 Q: ...to, sort of, just take a chance?
1:25:31 K: I’m not asking you to take a chance. I’m just showing you the facts. If you take a chance, that is not a fact.
1:25:51 If you take, say, ‘Well, I… I’ll… I’ll trust to life,’ that means what? That you really don’t care. You say, ‘Well, if I die, I die; if I become a beggar, all right.’ There is no preoccupation in that.
1:26:17 Because you say, ‘Well, I don’t care. I’ll study, if I can’t pass exams, if I don’t get a job, it’s all right, I’ll do something else.’ There is no preoccupation.
1:26:33 Moment there is preoccupation when you want to be that, where there is security.
1:26:49 Right? Do you see it? Come on, we have gone... spent a whole hour. This is simple. Now, please follow it. What happens then, when you say, ‘It is a fact. This is so in me, that I want to be secure, certain there, and I know it may not be possible and I’m anxious and I’m preoccupied: that’s a fact.’ Right?
1:27:30 Right?
1:27:31 Q: Right.
1:27:33 K: Right? If it is a fact, what will you do with it?
1:27:50 You can’t suppress it.
1:27:52 Q: You deal with it.
1:27:56 K: Wait, wait. First see the fact. You’re now going too far. You’re… What will you do with the fact? Who has created this fact? Your parents, your society, your educators and you yourself have created this fact.
1:28:40 Right? This fact is born out of human conflict, out of human desire, out of human uncertainty, out of human desire to be certain.
1:29:06 It’s not only you have created it, your parents have created it, your society has created it, your culture has created it, your knowledge – all that has contributed to this.
1:29:20 Q: And if you decide…
1:29:27 K: First, fact.
1:29:31 Q: If you decide to deny…
1:29:34 K: No, no. Don’t decide anything.
1:29:36 Q: Well…
1:29:37 K: Ah, you see, you are going off. You’re going off, you’re not facing the fact and look at it. My question was: who created this terrible thing, that children, young people should be put into this position?
1:29:54 The fathers, the mothers, the grandparents, your great-great-great grandparents, your culture, your society, your religion, your economic state – all that has brought this about.
1:30:17 Q: Right.
1:30:21 K: That’s a fact.
1:30:28 Now, when you say, ‘Yes, I see the fact, and I see who has… this fact has been brought about through all these circumstances,’ when you say, ‘I see it’ – right?
1:30:44 – see the fact – are you following all this? – what do you mean by seeing the fact?
1:30:52 (Pause) Go on, sir, you’re all clever enough.
1:31:01 Q: It’s not resisting it. You don’t resist.
1:31:08 K: It is so.
1:31:10 Q: Yes, it is so, you don’t resist, you don’t...
1:31:16 Q: Yes.
1:31:17 K: No. Do you see…?
1:31:19 Q: You are not preoccupied anymore.
1:31:22 K: Are you? Have you stopped being preoccupied?
1:31:37 You see, that lady has made a statement, ‘You’re not.’ Is that so?
1:31:45 Together – she may be – are we together saying, ‘Yes, I’m not preoccupied’?
1:32:00 You can’t say that, because you don’t see the fact.
1:32:07 You want to alter the fact. You want to go under it. You want to go over it. You want to do something, but you don’t see the fact that this preoccupation is born out of the desire to be certain, as you are now, and so on.
1:32:38 That is a fact.
1:32:45 The moment you want to do something about it, it becomes non-fact. Right?
1:32:58 If I break this up, this microphone, tear it to pieces, it won’t be a microphone.
1:33:07 In the... But I want to do something about the fact – that’s my preoccupation. I don’t say, ‘Yes, that’s a fact. Now, let me see how it has come into being and what shall I do?’ We have seen how it has come into being.
1:33:33 We have seen the source of it. Governments, nationalities, laws, religion, economic condition, the social morality and so on and so on – all this has brought this about, that each one wants to be completely secure in the future, and the fear of not being secure and so the occupation.
1:34:10 This is the… Please, this is the historical pattern. Your fathers went through this, your grandfathers went through it, your mothers, you. This is a fact. Right? What will you do with the fact?
1:34:37 And when you say, ‘Yes, I see it’s a fact,’ what tells you... why do you say, ‘I see it’?
1:34:48 Why do we…? You, at least half-a-dozen of you, said, ‘Yes I see it.’ What do you mean by ‘seeing it’?
1:35:00 Understand it verbally? Understand the idea of it, or together we see it? And this… what is that seeing? Which is, you comprehend it is so.
1:35:19 Q: Yes.
1:35:20 K: No, wait, go slowly. You comprehend; it is so. Right? You see – careful now, go slowly – you see that you’re occupied, preoccupied with the future, preoccupied because you want that security, certainty, and you also have the feeling that it might not come out as you want it, and so the fear, anxiety makes you preoccupied; and this preoccupation has been gathered together through millennia – which all human beings have contributed to, whether the totalitarian, democratic, the imperialist, left, right, centre.
1:36:28 Right? Now, what have…? Out of this observation, what has come into being?
1:36:38 You have listened to all this, you have understood it, you have seen the truth of it – right?
1:36:50 – and so, what is the result of that? What is the flowering of that?
1:36:56 Q: Well, freedom. Freedom from fear.
1:37:02 K: Oh no, no, no. I’m not talking from fear.
1:37:08 Q: That is the outcome.
1:37:10 K: No, no, sir, just see what… see what has happened.
1:37:16 Q: If I’m not preoccupied anymore, I’m free, surely?
1:37:23 K: No, sir. Are you preoccupied now?
1:37:33 (Pause) You say it is so.
1:37:41 Why…? I am preoccupied. It’s part of my way of education, the way I’ve lived with my parents – it is so.
1:37:52 Right? You don’t say, ‘I’m preoccupied’ – it is so. I wonder if you see this.
1:38:10 You don’t say... I mean, if you’re a girl, you say, ‘I’m a girl.’ You’re not preoccupied about being a girl, unless you’re neurotic.
1:38:28 It is… – that’s what I want, together – it is so.
1:38:40 When you see it is so, I say, ‘Look, what makes you say it is?’ Now you’re…
1:38:49 Come on, sirs, give your… exercise your instincts, your feeling, sensitivity, your awareness, your mind – apply to it.
1:39:02 Q: Well, it’s just the recognition of…
1:39:09 K: Wait, recognition of the fact.
1:39:14 Q: Yes.
1:39:16 K: Right? What do you mean by recognition?
1:39:19 Q: Well, I don’t know, you…
1:39:20 K: It is so.
1:39:22 Q: Well, you...
1:39:23 K: What makes you recognise the fact...
1:39:27 Q: Intelligence.
1:39:29 K: …which you haven’t recognised before? What makes you now recognise it and say, ‘Yes, By Jove, it is so.’ Q: Do you think perhaps it’s because we’ve been looking at it together?
1:39:43 Thinking about it.
1:39:44 K: Yes, what makes you see that?
1:39:47 Q: Intelligence.
1:39:48 K: That’s it! Now, wait a minute. You’ve said... Careful. You have said it is all this description, back and forth dialogue, all the pointing out, you say it is so, because out of this observation together you have this intelligence.
1:40:09 Right? Have you? This intelligence that says, ‘It is so.’ That intelligence is operating. Right? Are you together in this? Intelligence is operating. You say, ‘Yes, I’m occupied, it is necessary to be occupied, because I’ll work,’ but intelligence says, ‘Go…
1:40:37 Don’t be preoccupied – work.’ Q: Yes.
1:40:42 K: You may not get a job, you may get a job, you may not have… you may not become a doctor, you might become a gardener.
1:40:53 There is no preoccupation, because intelligence says… has seen the fact and how that fact has arisen, what are the implications and the responsibility of that fact, and so that intelligence says, ‘All right, I’ll study.
1:41:20 I won’t be preoccupied, I’ll do my best – if I fail, I’ll fail.’ There is no fear.
1:41:32 Now, are we together in this?
1:41:39 If… that is, we are a small community – see what takes place if we are together in this, what a tremendous force we are.
1:41:56 We are outside of that society. It says, ‘Yes, I’ll study as hard as I can, but I am not preoccupied about becoming secure, because my security, I thought, lay in my becoming a doctor.
1:42:17 Yes, I’ll study to be a doctor, but if I can’t, I can’t. But I have cultivated the brain.’ Q: Yes.
1:42:28 K: Which I can turn to become a gardener, a carpenter, but I always want to be somebody bigger out there.
1:42:42 Q: Sir, but I don’t see why it is wrong to be preoccupied.
1:42:49 I mean, are you suggesting that it is wrong to be preoccupied?
1:42:56 K: Why is it wrong to be preoccupied?
1:42:59 Q: Yes.
1:43:00 K: Where have you been all this time? Yes, I know, I know. Natsikaders is saying that, from the Upanishads.
1:43:11 Q: I see the fact that we are preoccupied.
1:43:15 K: Why should… why shouldn’t you be preoccupied?
1:43:18 Q: Yes.
1:43:19 K: Isn’t it a waste of energy?
1:43:22 Q: So many things that we do are a waste of energy.
1:43:25 K: Ah, wait. Of course, lots of things you do is a waste of energy. We are taking this particular wastage of energy – why waste energy on that?
1:43:35 Q: No, but then if you’re preoccupied, that means if you think something out, you might be able to solve it now, and, I mean, be more clear in the future.
1:43:45 K: What, what?
1:43:48 Q: If you are preoccupied that means if you think about something…
1:43:51 K: Yes, we have… A man who is preoccupied about the future, creates fear.
1:44:03 I am preoccupied what the dentist might do to me when I go on Thursday.
1:44:12 I’m nervous, I get nervous, I get anxious, I get frightened.
1:44:20 If I’m preoccupied with my desire to be secure, I’m creating fear, I’m anxious.
1:44:33 Right? Right, sir? No, this is very important, if you understand this one fact very deeply, then...
1:44:51 – I won’t… see the thing together – then what takes place? Not only about studies and all that, then what takes place?
1:45:04 Q: You’re here, you’re at the moment.
1:45:10 K: No, not only that. What takes place? I’m no longer competing.
1:45:22 Q: Right.
1:45:23 K: Ah, no, don’t… Go into it, very carefully. I’m no longer competing. I am no longer comparing. Comparing, imitating has been what education has… all the society has given me.
1:45:48 Q: Right. Yes.
1:45:50 K: Therefore, I don’t compete, I study, I observe. I have much more energy: when I’m comparing all the time, I lose energy.
1:46:02 Q: Are you still part of society then?
1:46:07 K: Am I? I put on social clothes.
1:46:15 Q: Yes, I mean…
1:46:16 K: Ah, see: your question is right. Find out. Go into it. Am I part of society, which is competitive, conforming, seeking position, certainty, certainty...
1:46:36 and all the time destroying certainties? And I say, ‘Look, I don’t want… I’m only…’ Got it? Now, are we together of one mind – both the educators and those who are being educated – are we all of one mind about this?
1:47:12 See, if we are one mind, see what happens.
1:47:30 You follow, sir? We have an enormous force.
1:47:35 Q: Yes.
1:47:40 K: And this… because we see this, we are creating a new… we are bringing about a new generation.
1:47:51 What time is it?
1:47:59 Q: Quarter to two.
1:48:03 K: Two?
1:48:04 Q: One forty five.
1:48:05 K: My goodness. (Laughter) Enough, I think, don’t you?
1:48:09 Q: Yes.
1:48:10 K: We’ll carry...