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BR79DSS1.3 - What has man made of himself psychologically?
Brockwood Park, UK - 3 June 1979
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.3



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s third discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1979.
0:11 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:29 No suggestion?
0:41 Q: Deception?
0:49 Self-deception?
0:50 K: Deception, self-deception, illusion - you want to talk about that?
1:03 Q: Yes.
1:19 K: All right. Then may I start something?
1:31 We were talking about something yesterday which might be of interest.
1:46 What has man made of himself during the last two million years?
1:56 Or if it is too long a time ago, perhaps 2500 years ago - from then on till now, what has man, whether he lives in the East, in the Asiatic world, including India, and the Western world - America, Europe - what has he made of himself?
2:25 Have you ever thought about it?
2:32 There is the whole Eastern world - India, which at one time exploded over the whole of Asia, spreading Buddhism in China and eventually in Japan - and the West, from the Greeks till now - there is these two races, two civilisations, two cultures, and what has man made, of the West, of himself, and what has man made himself to be in the Asiatic world?
3:33 So it is really not a division between the East and West, but what has man made of himself?
3:45 You understand my question? You understand it? What has his mind become?
3:59 What his mind has become, what his whole emotional, affectionate, love, what has that become, and his physical organism?
4:16 You understand my question? That is, what has man made of himself during the last two millennia, or three, four?
4:37 There is the Asiatic culture and the Western culture.
4:47 They are both based on the movement of thought.
4:58 Right? Right? During the last so many thousand years, tribalism still exists, even now - tribalism, which is called nationalism.
5:17 There have been wars, endless wars, perhaps more wars on this side of the world than on the other side.
5:30 There had been a great deal of violence, which continues more and more to be violent.
5:43 There has been division of people. Religion has almost put the mind in a straightjacket.
5:57 And all the brutalities, the quarrels, the divisions - all that exists.
6:11 What have we, what has man, you and I, human beings made of ourselves?
6:20 You understand my question?
6:29 We have technologically made tremendous progress.
6:40 Man is more healthy, perhaps the Eastern world is overpopulated, man lives much longer, they have more comfort, easier transportation, easier means of communication, better sanitary conditions - apart from that external improvement - aeroplanes, cars, tanks, better machine guns, and all the scientific inventions and the explorations - apart from that, what has man made of himself psychologically, inwardly?
7:52 Do we ever ask that question? Or we are all concerned with the outer achievement - better job, more money, a better career.
8:14 So we are asking: what has man, who has lived for so long, what has he made of himself?
8:33 So what are you making of yourself, apart from jobs and money, position and all that?
8:45 Inwardly, what are you? Are you so very different from the savages, prehistoric human beings, who are angry, jealous, hating each other, killing each other?
9:08 Psychologically, inwardly, we are very unhappy people, confused, uncertain, insecure.
9:18 We have lost all sense of affection, care, love.
9:29 Right? So what have we become?
9:39 Perhaps we have more knowledge, of the things of the earth and the air, and our physical organisms, but we don’t seem deeply, inwardly to have changed - hardly at all.
10:05 So what is progress? There is outward development - better so-called education; perhaps which may be wider conditioning - and so on, outwardly.
10:39 Have we changed at all?
10:46 Shouldn’t we ask this question of ourselves, or is it too difficult to find an answer to it?
11:13 Shouldn’t we as human beings, with brains that have evolved through many, many, many centuries - we use that brain to destroy each other, to divide ourselves from other groups and other countries, other points of views, and so on and so on.
11:52 Is it possible to have a different quality of mind so that we become really, deeply, highly excellent human beings?
12:14 Have you ever thought about all this?
12:26 Or are we all so concerned, occupied with jobs, money, position, getting married, house, children, all outward comforts, everything out there?
12:47 Will this ever bring about a different quality of mind, different human being, a mind that is really good?
13:03 We talked about goodness the other day.
13:10 A mind that is not self-centred, that is not so utterly selfish, conceited, vain, arrogant, violent.
13:24 After I have talked you are going to discuss, we are going to have a dialogue.
13:40 So I am asking, though we have outwardly progressed, evolved, but inwardly we seem to remain as we were many thousand years ago.
14:13 So what shall we do? You understand my question?
14:22 What shall we do? And is it possible for you, for human beings to deeply change?
14:45 Q: Surely, sir, one must be aware that that is the trap, first of all.
15:06 Probably many people would say that there have been certain relative changes or relative improvements. For instance, slavery is almost abolished throughout the world, as a…
15:14 K: Slavery.
15:15 Q: You could say there’s economic oppression, but slavery as such has been, for instance, abolished, so there are certain kinds of improvements.
15:25 K: That’s again, sir, all outward expressions.
15:29 Q: Yes, but there’s a corresponding inward movement because someone at sometime saw that it was wrong simply to have a slave, a section of society who were merely slaves, and so someone saw that and set, you know, set the ball rolling to change it, and it did change.
15:54 So there have been certain changes.
16:00 K: So, we are satisfied with that change?
16:08 There have been little changes. Come on, sirs.
16:19 Are we content with the little changes that we have made in ourselves and so in the world, both economically and so on and so on - are we satisfied with all that?
16:40 Or are we going to wait through another thousand years to bring about a little further change?
16:49 Or is there a movement not only in ourselves but also outwardly, a movement that is more concerned - which doesn’t mean neglecting the outer - more concerned with the transformation of the human mind?
17:18 Go on, sir.
17:22 Q: Many people would ask what that means. You know, how is that different from what we have? What do you mean by a transformation of the human mind?
17:37 K: What do I mean by…?
17:39 Q: How would that be different than what we have now?
17:44 K: What do you think?
17:45 Q: Well, it would purely be conjecture on my part, or mostly conjecture.
17:57 K: No, I mean, how would you answer this, sir?
18:09 If one is concerned, committed, involved with the total change of the human mind, with one’s own mind, how would you set about it?
18:31 What would you ask of yourself?
18:37 Q: I suppose I would ask what would have to change, what aspects of it would have to change.
18:51 K: Organically you can’t change very much. Right? Physically. Then what else is there? We can’t have a third eye or a third arm or something else.
19:04 But if that is not possible then what areas, fields in which there is a possibility of change?
19:18 The brain, the content of the brain, the whole structure of thought and its constant movement, and whether it is possible to have a relationship with others in which there is no possibility of any conflict.
19:54 Wouldn’t you approach it that way?
20:06 Whether a human being can live, not only intimately with another, but a relationship that is not exclusive, that is not bound, personal, limited - if one has the right relationship with another then you have right relationship with mankind.
20:39 Is that possible?
20:46 And how is one to… in what way one is to set about it?
20:55 You understand my question? If I have a right relationship with my wife or with my girl, with my friend, I have a right relationship with all human beings.
21:09 Right? Would you see that? Right? Now, how do I bring about this relationship with another, in which there is not a shadow of conflict?
21:36 Come on, sir, let’s have a dialogue about it, not just let me talk.
21:44 If I talk then you just merely listen and gradually forget, but if you could exchange your ideas, your feelings, and talk about it.
22:01 How would you, because you are going to have either marriage or boyfriend or whatever it is, how will you establish, even now with your friend, so that there is no barrier, there is no sense of me first and you second, there is a sense of real communication, open to each other to discuss, to have a dialogue, to go...
22:39 You follow? How would you set about it?
22:43 Q: Well, it seems that you can’t set it about in a positive way, which means you can’t really go and with some concept or whatever and start to bring it about.
23:02 K: How would you do it, sir, you? You must have a friend or… Is it possible for you - I am not being personal - possible for you to have a relationship in which there is not a sense of me and you - you understand? - we and they?
23:32 To have a sense of relationship with another so that we can live together happily, sanely.
23:42 Is that possible? Or is it just an idea - you understand? - that one should live that way.
24:07 If one had a relationship with another one must - it is obvious one has relationship with another, at whatever level that relationship be – have you ever asked yourself and so find out how to live a life, not only periodically and on rare occasions, but all the time, to have no sense of selfish, self-centred pursuits.
25:01 Go on, sir, discuss.
25:10 Q: I think the main barrier is that we are so afraid to expose ourselves.
25:17 K: You make barriers and so afraid to expose ourselves. Why does one make barriers?
25:28 You investigate. Why do I have barriers? What are barriers? How has that come into my being?
25:49 Is it based on like and dislike? Is it based on reward and punishment? Is it based on judgment?
26:05 My judgment opposed to your judgment, my value opposed to your value, my taste contrary to yours.
26:25 And who creates these barriers?
26:40 One says one has these barriers – national, you know, the whole thing - various forms and types, colours of barriers.
26:54 Who has made them?
26:55 Q: It is process of my thinking that makes it.
27:00 K: You are saying thinking makes these barriers.
27:03 Q: It’s sort of the automatic process of thinking we are not aware of.
27:10 K: Yes - automatic thinking creates these barriers instantly. Is that so? I am not saying it is not or it is; we are investigating. You are saying thought creates these barriers.
27:36 Why does it create?
27:37 Q: Fear.
27:38 K: Fear.
27:39 Q: Makes it create all these barriers when meeting other people or any such occasion.
27:53 K: So you are saying, sir, fear creates these barriers. Why? Why is there fear? Go, think it out, go on.
28:04 Q: We have been told since a very long time that some things must not be told, that we must hide some things because they are bad, so therefore we make barriers.
28:18 K: Yes. So what?
28:20 Q: Well, it’s a fear to expose yourself.
28:23 K: No. First of all, do you know you have barriers?
28:28 Q: Yes.
28:29 K: And do you know the kind of barriers you have? Are you sure? The kind. What kind they are. Are they physical barriers?
28:47 I don’t like - not ‘I’ - one doesn’t like the looks of another. You might prefer a tall person to a short person.
29:00 One may not have bathed properly, there is a slight smell and perhaps that you won’t like.
29:10 Is it purely physical or is it much more psychological?
29:17 Q: It is more psychological.
29:23 K: Psychological. Why does psychological movement or psychological state create these barriers?
29:35 Go on. You say it’s psychological movement that creates these barriers.
29:52 What is the psychological… thing called psychological? What is it?
29:59 Q: It is your own judgment. It is the way you judge the other person.
30:10 K: Is it your judgment? Is the psyche - you understand what I mean - the inward thing, inward - is that all judgment?
30:18 Q: Thought.
30:20 K: Is it all values, opinions, conclusions, ideals?
30:32 And who has created these ideals, these conclusions, these opinions, these points of view, judgments - who has created them?
30:44 Q: Memory has created them.
30:49 K: Memory has created some.
30:53 Q: Experiences.
30:55 K: Experience have created some.
31:02 Knowledge which has been handed down from generation to generation have created that. Right? That is, your father, your mother or your grandfather, and so on in the past, they have said do this, don’t do that, you must be like this, you must not be like that, etc., etc.
31:20 So, that is also part of the barrier. So, we are saying, are you, the past with all its knowledge, the past with all its experience, the past with all the memories, that is the psyche, that is the essence of the psyche - right? - the past, the conclusions, the ideas, the ideals, the experiences, the impressions, the pressures - all that has created this quality that has barriers.
32:15 Is that what you are saying?
32:19 Q: Yes.
32:20 K: Or am I saying that?
32:22 Q: Well…
32:24 K: No, be quite sure that you are saying it, not I am saying it. Because if you are saying it, you have thought it out, it’s your discovery. You find it out therefore it is actual. If I tell you, it won’t be actual. But if you find it, it will be really actual. From there you can move. You understand? But if you accept what I am… what the speaker is saying and then try to conform your idea, your way of thinking to that, then it’s still another barrier.
33:04 You get it? Whereas if you say, ‘Yes, that is so, I found that,’ then it will be a fact and from there you move further.
33:19 You can only take as a fact that which is actually happening.
33:31 Right? So, are we all saying together - together, not I am saying and you accept, which would be silly - are we all saying together that we are made up of these things: knowledge from the past; experiences, not only ours but experiences handed down by the race, by the father, mother and so on and so on - knowledge, experience and vast accumulation of memories.
34:16 Right? I am a Hindu, you are a Christian, I am a Jew, you are a Buddhist. You follow? I am British - I am not, sorry - I am whatever it is and you are something else - so it goes on. That creates the sense of division. Right?
34:34 Q: I don’t think it is only that. I think it is… well, part of it is that we put this knowledge upon an absolute level and take it for granted.
34:49 K: Yes, sir. Yes, knowledge has become supreme, or more knowledge, less knowledge - I used the word ‘knowledge’ to include all that.
34:58 So, are these the barriers?
35:04 Q: Well, yes.
35:12 K: Think it out carefully, go into it by yourself.
35:19 We will help each other, but find out for yourself.
35:22 Q: Well, I think barriers are created when each person has his point of view and he is, like, afraid to express it to the other.
35:31 K: Yes. I hold on to my point of view, my knowledge, my experience, my memories - watch it carefully - and you hold on to your knowledge, your experiences, your memories.
35:52 Right? Does that create division?
35:56 Q: Yes.
35:57 K: No, careful, don’t…
35:58 Q: It does. I can see it.
36:01 K: Sir, go slowly, think it out carefully. Or there is another factor, which really is the… another factor that brings about division?
36:30 I am just asking, I am not saying there is. You have your memories, your experiences, your knowledge, handed down to you partly, or mostly, and it is the same with me or with another - judgments, opinions, conclusions, ideas, ideals, beliefs.
36:59 Follow it carefully. And you do the same.
37:05 Q: So, it is the fear of…
37:09 K: No, first… don’t go off into fear yet, just watch it first. Is that so? Is that the factor that divides human beings?
37:24 Q: I think it’s that each person has his own opinion and he is not willing to listen to the other, so there is no change, there is no give between each person, so then a barrier is made.
37:47 K: If your knowledge is common with mine, your experience is equal to mine, your memories are the same as mine, your judgments, your ideals, your conclusions, all that same as mine, would we will still be divided?
38:10 Q: Possibly.
38:12 K: Ah, don’t say possibly - that’s no answer.
38:18 Q: Krishnaji, is there something in me that is not any of this, that is not something that has been handed down from the past, that is not…
38:36 K: Yes - is there something in one that is not related to any of this - right? - that is something totally original, untouched, pristine - right? - or is that just a happy hope?
39:05 Q: What do you mean by happy hope?
39:11 K: There is something in me that you can’t touch, nobody has touched. It is a lovely idea but is that a fact?
39:26 Q: Well, I think we should answer the… we should try to find out about the previous question you asked.
39:39 K: The previous question I asked was: are these the factors that divide us?
39:46 Q: No…
39:47 K: Wait, wait, sir, let me finish.
39:48 Q: No, you asked a different question.
39:50 K: What did I ask?
39:52 Q: There was: if my opinions are the same as your opinions…
39:59 K: If my views the same as yours, my experience, my knowledge is the same as yours would we have a division?
40:10 Would there be barriers?
40:12 Q: Yes, I think… No, not… maybe not us but we would be divided from other people.
40:21 K: Ah, no. Because they don’t agree with us.
40:26 Q: Right.
40:27 K: No, no, go slow. I am talking… That is, if these are the factors, that my opinions, my judgments, my evaluations, my experience, my knowledge, my memories, my remembrances are the same as yours then you and I… in us there are no barriers.
40:54 Is that it?
40:55 Q: Yes, that may… Yes. Yes, yes.
40:58 Q: But I think there is a problem there because I can know the values, say (inaudible) I think I have and try to get others all to change that, but the a problem is to really know what I am when there is a crisis and not what values I think I have or am I to see that difference because we can continue speaking about value I think I have but when there is something that you have wrong I act in a different manner than the manner I thought I have to act, I think I have to act.
42:07 So, am I different that what I think I am?
42:23 SF: Krishnaji, he said that if we had the same opinions and the same knowledge and the same experiences that there would not be conflict.
42:42 I think that there probably would be as long as there is a sense of ‘me’ that is different from ‘you’.
42:50 K: Yeah, yes, the ‘me’ is my experience, my ideals, my memories, my conclusions, my opinions, my hopes, my depressions, my anxiety and you are the same, you have got all these and I am asking does this common factor, does that bring about division even though we see it?
43:33 We understand, yes, I am like… I have got the same things as you have, or is there much deeper factor which really creates this division?
43:45 I am asking.
43:46 Q: Well, do you mean the particular opinions are the same or do you think… or are you saying that we do have opinions (inaudible).
44:03 K: Does opinions create division or… I don’t want to… you come… I don’t (inaudible) you, you go into it.
44:13 Q: Although I have the same opinions as my friend and the same… more or less same character and all that, I still have the (inaudible) for myself (inaudible) …
44:23 K: Which means what? Go into it, dear, go into it, don’t say myself. You have opinions, haven’t you? Judgments, values, and so on and so forth.
44:38 I can’t… If you are not attached to them, what happens?
44:50 Q: You are open to see the opinions of the others.
44:56 K: If you are not attached to your opinion, you say, ‘Yes, I think that but I may be wrong, let’s…’ You follow?
45:05 Not attached, hold on, cling to.
45:09 SS: But that isn’t the fact, Krishnaji, the fact is that we are already motivated.
45:20 K: Ah?
45:22 SS: The fact is that we are already motivated.
45:30 K: Yes. We are already motivated.
45:33 SS: And the opinion and the particular memory is a kind of reinforcement of that and also the pursuit of knowledge is a further reinforcement of it.
45:39 K: Yes. I understand, sir, but if I am not attached to my knowledge, to the knowledge which I have acquired, to the opinions, ideals, beliefs, to my… the experience, all the vast remembrances of 50 years or 80 years; I am not attached to them.
45:57 SS: No, but…
45:58 K: Watch it, sir. If you are not attached will that create barriers?
46:05 Q: No, it is just if you cling to it.
46:13 K: Ah?
46:14 Q: If you cling to your opinions and don’t let go of them then you can’t… you have no energy to find out about the other things…
46:20 K: So, if you are not attached you are free from them.
46:23 Q: Exactly.
46:24 K: So, what… So, is that the factor – attachment, clinging on to something, holding on, is that what creates barriers?
46:35 Go on, sir, think it out.
46:46 Then why does the mind attach itself to them?
46:53 Why does the mind… my mind hold on to my belief, my opinion?
47:02 Why? Come on, sir. Think it out.
47:06 Q: For security.
47:08 K: Ah?
47:09 Q: Security.
47:10 K: Security. What do you mean by that word?
47:13 Q: If somebody else has something to say then (inaudible).
47:19 K: No, I am asking what do you mean by that word ‘security’.
47:24 Q: A sense of….
47:28 K: Feeling safe.
47:29 Q: Yes.
47:30 K: Protected, certain. Right?
47:32 Q: If you don’t mind, it’s also helps you… if somebody else opposes your opinions you feel threatened.
47:54 K: You feel threatened?
47:55 Q: Yes.
47:56 K: Therefore… that’s what I mean. You hold on to your opinions, cling to them hoping to have security in them.
48:07 Right?
48:08 Q: Yes.
48:09 K: Now, what do you mean by that word ‘security’?
48:20 You live in a room, it is secure. You are not exposed to the winds, rains and cold. You are secure there. You are secure if you have a… one thinks one is secure if you have good bank account or if you… one feels secure to belong… belonging to a particular group, particular community, particular nation; you feel secure if all of us believe in the same thing; you feel certain, there is no fear, no anxiety that if we all say, ‘God is all… with me, with you and we’re all godly’.
49:08 You follow? So, are you using the word ‘secure’ in the sense of being protected, being certain, safe, no sense of threat?
49:26 Q: Yes.
49:27 K: That’s it. Is that possible?
49:29 Q: Well, it seems to work in certain fields.
49:42 K: In what fields?
49:47 Q: Well, for instance being at Brockwood and knowing opinions of people around me don’t clash too much with my opinion (inaudible)…
50:05 K: Yes, either you are indifferent to other peoples’ opinions, other peoples’ judgments because you feel my own opinion is much better than all the lot of (inaudible); but somebody else comes along and says, ‘Your opinions are not as good as…’ You know?
50:27 Q: Yes, (inaudible)…
50:28 K: And you… so - wait, watch it, sir, (inaudible) don’t be quick. So, what are you doing? You are protecting your own judgments. Right? That is, you are holding on to them; and the… hoping in that clinging to, being attached to your opinions and so on, you will find security.
51:01 Right? Is there security in opinions? Is there security - in the sense we have used that word - is there security in your judgment, in your belief, in your ideals?
51:24 Q: Just so long as somebody doesn’t come along and stimulate (inaudible).
51:34 K: Yeah, exactly. So, what do you… ? So I’m… we are asking: is the factor of attachment - you understand what I mean the word ‘attachment’ - holding on, clinging, not letting go, not being free.
52:00 So, is this attachment that creates division, that creates barriers, that creates conflict?
52:12 What do you say?
52:20 You are all… you are all somewhere else.
52:21 SS: Surely, sir, there is something which precedes the attachment.
52:26 K: What, sir?
52:28 SS: There is something that precedes the attachment.
52:34 K: Which is what?
52:36 SS: Which is the sense of a separate identity.
52:41 K: How is that separate identity created?
52:51 Who has created the separate identity?
52:59 Identity with what?
53:00 SS: Well, it is identity with, for instance, each of us has a name, that name is the name of a family.
53:07 K: Yes. The attachment to the name, to the family, to… but it’s still attachment.
53:15 No? I am attached to my name. I am attached to my looks. I am attached to my family’s tradition.
53:33 I am attached to my father, my mother. I am attached to my… Right?
53:39 SS: But I’m suggesting one is prior and therefore possibly deeper than the other.
53:46 The sense of a separate identity is prior and possibly deeper than the other.
53:49 K: I am questioning there is a previous identity. I question… I am not saying it doesn’t exist or it exists; I am asking, is there previous identity at all?
54:05 Identity with what?
54:06 SF: Well, even to say that I have a family and I have a name there is… there is…
54:14 we say that there is an ‘I’.
54:16 K: Yes. What is that ‘I’?
54:18 SF: Well, that seems to be, I think what Steven was saying, was something that comes before the attachments.
54:24 K: Why do you say it comes before?
54:28 SS: Well, because you are attached (inaudible) it, because there is a sense of the… seemingly very early on in life this sense of identity is created through the family, through the larger group, through the nation, the sense of identity is created.
54:48 K: So identity implies security.
54:54 Q: What the word ‘identity’ actually means is…
54:59 K: To identify…
55:00 Q: …always the same.
55:01 K: Ah?
55:02 Q: I believe the word ‘identity’ means always the same.
55:05 K: Yes, always the same.
55:07 Q: And we have this sense that there is something in us, which is always the same.
55:10 K: That is, I am attached to…
55:12 Q: No.
55:13 SS: No.
55:14 Q: No.
55:15 K: No, just a minute, sir. I am attached to something, which I hope will always be the same.
55:19 SF: No, I am something that is always the same.
55:23 K: Ah?
55:24 SS: I am something…
55:26 SF: I… I am the thing, which is always the same, the ‘I’.
55:28 K: Wait. What is this ‘I’? Don’t let the old people get away with it.
55:35 Q: (Laughter) Q: I don’t think this ‘I’ is old or young, sir.
55:39 K: Don’t let the old people… you…
55:40 Q: (Laughter) Q: Krishnaji, this is the point that I was trying to bring up earlier: we think that there is something in us that other than all the thoughts and the… from the psyche.
56:00 K: Still you hope there is something deeper, wider; in that you hope there is security.
56:10 Or you say that is permanently in me.
56:17 Right? You see, you are saying identity exists because we want the same thing to continue.
56:36 Right? My belief, my knowledge, my experience to continue all the time; increasing or decreasing, but it is my experience.
56:49 Because it is a… I hope and pray and long for this to continue without any disturbance.
56:58 SS: That’s in the genetic structure of mankind, Krishnaji.
57:02 K: What?
57:03 SS: That’s in the genetic structure of mankind.
57:05 K: Yes, sir.
57:06 Q: But every person doesn’t think it out for himself; it comes about, so to speak, automatically...
57:08 K: Yes, sir, that’s what I…
57:09 SS: … (inaudible).
57:10 K: Why do we accept this?
57:11 SS: Well, it’s not a question of accepting it; it is there.
57:17 K: No. Why is it there? I don’t accept it, but I say, I question it.
57:28 Why should I have this desire for the continuity of the same thing?
57:35 SS Well apparently, you don’t, if I may so.
57:41 K: I don’t and… leave me alone. (Laughs).
57:46 Q: (Laughter) SF: If we see in our thinking we believe that it is something that actually exists. We don’t want to create it. We don’t want it to be there; I mean, implied in the sense of self is that it does exist, it’s a reality...
58:00 K: Yes.
58:01 SF: … whether or not that’s a deception is another question but we might be born with it, we might… it might be created when we are very young, but we think it’s really there.
58:12 K: What do you say to that? (repeats) Q: I don’t understand what you are talking about.
58:22 K: You don’t understand the question?
58:24 Q: No, I don’t understand what they are talking about.
58:28 K: Who is talking about?
58:29 Q: Well, what Scott …
58:32 Q: (Laughter) K: Caught out.
58:43 My question is… still remains unanswered.
58:54 Detachment and attachment; attachment to something that I want to continue.
59:04 Right? I live in this house. It has given me…it’s a nice room and all… I am attached to it because I feel comfortable there. I am undisturbed. I can go away from all the noise and all that, come back to this room and close myself in and I hope that will go on for the rest of my life.
59:34 I am attached to that. I am identified myself with the room, with the furniture, with the carpet, with the pictures, with the clock, with the bureau, with the…
59:50 Right. Is that what separates me and you, you are attached to your room, to your… I am attached to mine. I am attached to my belief and you are attached to your belief. You are attached to your experience and… and we want this, the continuation of this, no breaking up of it.
1:00:24 And so we… I am British, after all, Britain has existed for so many centuries; I am British. I say before Britain existed I am… India existed, I am Indian, I am attached to that. The idea of being (inaudible). You follow? (Inaudible) attachment. Is that what divides us? Are you all here? (Laughs) Good. Is that what divides us? Ravi, come on…
1:00:59 Q: It seems…
1:01:01 K: You want your career and you are going to have a good career, you work for it and cling to it and I want the same career as you, but I am probably better than you so we quarrel, we divide.
1:01:22 Right? Go on, sirs, investigate. If there is no attachment at all would there be no… would there still be a division?
1:01:39 Go on, sir. Answer it. If I am not attached to my name, my form, my memories, my remembrances, my experiences, my furniture, my gods, my belief, I am not attached, I am free.
1:02:06 What?
1:02:07 Q: So, so, it is easier to be attached than to think to change your opinion.
1:02:12 K: Yeah. So you… it is easier to be attached which means easier to remain in the things that I have; in the things I have acquired; in the things I have experienced.
1:02:31 So what does that mean? Think it out. What does it mean?
1:02:40 Q: It seems the very nature of thought, of thinking has in it this movement toward security.
1:02:49 K: Yes, sir. That comes a little further. I want to go into it step by step. I am asking you, if one is not attached to anything, to which he has no identity, which means a continuity of the same thing then would there be divisions?
1:03:17 Would we… would I have a better relationship with my wife, with my husband, with my girl, with my neighbour, with…
1:03:25 ? I have no attachment of any kind; my neighbour has. Right? All right, what of it? I can’t change him unless he wants to discuss with me, go into it; I can’t change it.
1:03:45 But I see I can live without conflict.
1:03:53 Right? Perhaps he will listen to me one day and say, ‘By Jove, how is it to live like this?’ and I go into it, if he wants to listen, I’ll talk to him.
1:04:07 Are we… ah?
1:04:08 Q: Excuse me. If he tries to step on you… ?
1:04:11 K: Comment?
1:04:12 Q: If he tries to step on you because you have no more attachment…
1:04:14 K: Yes. If he tries to step on me, what am I to do? Go on, sir. Answer this. You are all going to face all this. My neighbour begins to say, ‘You are a… you…’ calls me names and say, ‘You are just an idiot, you are living in illusion, you are not free from attachment’, he begins to tread on me, perhaps not physically because law protects me.
1:04:44 Law in quotes. So what shall I do? Careful now. I am not attached. What is he attacking me?
1:05:01 Q: So he is afraid that perhaps there is something in (inaudible) there is something in not being attached (inaudible)…
1:05:12 K: Which means I am a danger, I am a danger.
1:05:16 Q: …so he is attacking you to…
1:05:19 K: That’s right, sir.
1:05:20 Q: …think that you might push away because (inaudible)…
1:05:22 K: Because my very existence is a threat to him because I have no opinions. You follow? I am detached. So he is frightened. Right?
1:05:32 Q: Yeah.
1:05:33 K: So, what takes place, psychologically?
1:05:36 Q: His (inaudible) …
1:05:40 K: Think it out. Watch it. You know what happens in history. Either you kill it or you worship it.
1:05:50 Q: (Laughter) K: Right? If I don’t understand you and you are important I try to damage you or say (inaudible) I can’t damage you therefore I respect you.
1:06:13 You understand?
1:06:14 Q: But you can also…
1:06:15 K: So, follow it out, sir. I am asking you, is it possible to live together without any shadow of conflict?
1:06:36 And conflict exists only when I am attached. Right? Will you live that way?
1:06:46 Q: (Laughter) K: Don’t… will you live that way? Otherwise it’s just words. We have a good intellectual or verbal argument and dialogue but that is worthless.
1:07:01 Right? But if you say, ‘Look, I am going to live that way. I understand this. I am going to change my life and not be attached to a thing’. Does the nonattachment… does it mean callousness? You follow?
1:07:22 Q: It means to observe, observe and see if it’s relevant.
1:07:31 K: Ah?
1:07:32 Q: It means to observe or to be open.
1:07:37 K: No. I am not open. I am free. I am not a (inaudible) to which you can pour things in. I am a free person. I am not attached. Can you live that way?
1:07:58 Q: Well…
1:08:00 K: Work it out, sir. Find out whether you can live daily without a single sense of attachment.
1:08:12 Q: But every movement that you make is based on attachment and judgment.
1:08:21 K: Is it? If it is…
1:08:23 Q: (Inaudible).
1:08:24 K: If your judgment… if you are attached to your judgment, drop it because you cannot then live without conflict.
1:08:34 Q: So you have to be alone.
1:08:45 K: Ah?
1:08:48 Q: You have to be alone.
1:08:52 Q: Alone.
1:08:54 K: Alone means all one. I am not… if one is free one is… doesn’t mean one has to be alone.
1:09:08 Loneliness is another form of being attached to something from which you have been deprived.
1:09:20 I have… one has been deprived of this relationship or that relationship and suddenly find yourself lonely.
1:09:27 We won’t enter into that for the moment. Now, we ought to stop. Now, will you please consider what we have discussed this morning, seriously?
1:09:48 Will you drop your… any kind of attachment? One or two attachments, just drop it. See what happens.
1:09:56 Q: It is easy to say, but to do, I mean…
1:10:00 K: Ah?
1:10:01 Q: It is easy to say just drop it, but…
1:10:04 K: Ah, it is easy to say, I agree. But will you do it after this discussion, which means you have very carefully followed step by step.
1:10:18 You have understood as long as you are attached to something in which you hope will endure, last, as long as that feeling, that state exists you cannot possibly live without conflict; and if you want to live in conflict it’s all right.
1:10:47 That’s what most 99% of the people do.
1:10:54 It’s all right. But realize it. See it. Either you want to live that way or this way.
1:11:11 It’s up to you. So you exercise your own judgment, your own opinion or you say, ‘Look, let’s see what is… which is the most… which is the happiest, true way of living’.
1:11:35 Ravi is calculating.
1:11:42 Q: (Laughter).
1:11:47 K: He is really vain.
1:11:59 Q: (Laughter) K: Where are we after this morning?
1:12:09 What will you do? I am sorry to push you into a corner; I’m going to push you into a corner.
1:12:21 Q: Well, I think it will make a tremendous difference if we play around with it, actually.
1:12:29 K: Ah?
1:12:30 Q: I think it will make a tremendous difference if we play around with it, if we really try to drop our opinions.
1:12:39 K: Will you?
1:12:40 Q: Oh, yes. I will try.
1:12:43 K: Ah. Don’t try. That’s what all the people say: ‘I will try’ and never do. Either you do it or don’t do it.
1:12:50 Q: Okay.
1:12:51 K: Not okay.
1:12:52 Q: (Laughter) Q: Krishnaji, the thing that… excuse me, I don’t know if you want to stop the discussion.
1:13:17 K: We should stop, sir.
1:13:28 What (inaudible) …
1:13:29 Q: I was going to say the thing that concerns me is that we listen to what you say and we therefore get an idea of what nonattachment is…
1:13:36 K: Yeah, this is not what I am saying. This is what you are discovering for yourself. That’s what I said to you. Unless you discover this, unless this is showed to you don’t accept it.
1:13:50 Don’t repeat something which you yourself have not seen.
1:13:58 Otherwise you may as well become a second-hand human being.
1:14:10 Right? Shall we stop now. Ah?
1:14:16 Q: Yes.