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BR79DSS1.4 - What is the purpose of life?
Brockwood Park, UK - 10 June 1979
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.4



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s fourth discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1979.
0:12 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about? Questioner: Krishnaji, in some of your talks you sometimes mention... you refer to something which you call ‘the otherness’ or ‘the immeasurable’, and of course we cannot understand what you're saying, so we make an idea of it, or we just don't understand and it becomes like a carrot which is dangled in front of us.
0:40 Could you...?
0:41 K: So what shall I do?
0:45 Q: Could you say what you actually mean when you…?
0:49 K: Are you interested in all that, or would you like to talk about something else?
1:02 Q: Maybe we can talk about having a balanced life, not unbalanced.
1:11 K: A balanced life – would you like to talk about that?
1:26 What do you say? You don't care if you have a balanced life or not?
1:40 Anything else? Shakuntala Narayan: Let's talk about this, about a balanced life.
1:52 Q: Yes.
1:54 K: What do you mean by life?
2:14 Have you thought about it at all, what you mean by life?
2:23 What we generally mean by life, as it’s generally understood by a vast majority of people, is to work from morning till night, get some money, a job, marry, children, and occasional holidays, and grow old and die.
2:58 Right? That’s generally called living, isn't it? If you're good at golf, if you're good at cricket or other games, you play that; or if you're interested in football, you go and see it.
3:15 So it’s generally spent that way for most people - right? - wars, quarrels, ambition, constant struggle.
3:30 Right? Right? Do you agree to all this? This is called living; this is called life. In that life, how can you bring about a balance? That’s what you're asking. Right? How can one have a balanced life amidst a sea of trouble, amidst a sea of contradictions, a society in which you live demanding all kinds of things of you, pressures - right?
4:23 - your own job, others competing for that job.
4:31 You may become a specialist - doctor, scientist, professor, engineer, and so on; and the relationship between himself and his family, his wife, his children is superficial and so on.
5:03 Are you asking how to bring about a balanced life in this, which is generally called living?
5:19 This is what you're going to enter into - right? - or if you're not already there.
5:30 So... and what do you mean by balanced?
5:33 Q: Not giving more importance to one thing than you do to the others.
5:41 K: You mean a harmonious life, harmony.
5:44 Q: (Inaudible).
5:46 K: Harmony between what? Between the mind, the heart, and the body.
6:00 Heart, of course I'm using it only metaphorically speaking. So you want a balance, harmony in action, in relationship, in your thinking, in your feeling; a way of life that is totally harmonious - right? - without any contradictions, without any pressures - right? - without any sense of struggling to achieve something or other.
6:53 Right? This is what is generally called harmony: to live a life which is complete, whole, without any fragmentation taking place.
7:09 Right? Agree? To this, at least, definition,verbal definition for the moment - do you agree to that?
7:20 When we talk about harmony it means a life in which the mind, the heart and the whole physical organism, the whole complex man is not fragmented, not broken up, but living a whole life.
7:48 Right? Would you agree to... definition for that, verbal definition of harmonious life?
8:02 To understand what is death, to know what is meditation, to have great sense of love, affection - would you call that a harmonious life?
8:21 Right? Would you verbally agree to that? Verbally (laughs). Now, how can you bring this about in one’s life; a life which you have to live in the society - right?
8:48 Agree? - in the society which is corrupt, which is disintegrating, which is tribal importance - tribal, which is, nations are tribals - so how can you, who want to live a harmonious life in this surroundings - the society; politics, divisive, national division, religious divisions and so on- right? - can you... will you...
9:34 do you... can you bring this about in your life?
9:45 Many, many people do want to live that way, but they find society, the pressures, money, environment, all that is too much for them, so they yield... (inaudible) give in, and so they themselves become corrupt, more or less.
10:26 Right? Right? I'm not telling you anything; I'm pointing out: observe, look.
10:41 And this is what is happening in the world. One starts out young, fresh, perhaps somewhat innocent, and passes exams, wants to lead a different kind of life, hoping to have a good job, and gradually the ocean of troubles begin - right? - and not being able to solve them, or understand them, and go beyond them, they succumb; they’re swallowed up.
11:22 Right? Is this what's going to happen to you? Answer me, sir. You raised the question; you want to talk about it; let's do it; let's have a dialogue about it.
11:48 Is this what's going to happen to all of you, young and old?
11:56 Q: How do you know?
12:00 K: I don't know; I'm just asking. Is this what’s going to happen: swallowed up by the wolves (laughs), by the weight of tradition, by the weight of the past - you follow? - by the politicians, by the Popes, by the priests, by the past generations, by your fathers and mothers, by your friends - is this what's going to happen to you?
12:48 Q: It seems you can either conform to the society and follow it, or you can choose to move away, go and live somewhere on your own and think you have peace, and you're balanced, but it seems that society catches up with you.
13:06 It’s quite impossible to just go off and live on your own. And the question is really for me that: is it possible to do the two together – live in the society...
13:20 K: We’re going to find out.
13:21 Q: ...in a balanced way?
13:22 K: We’re going to find out. As you pointed out, either we follow, compromise, live in the society, accepting its norm, its way of existence, or move away from it into some small community - go into it carefully - into some small community where there are other people of similar feeling and thinking and attitudes, and separate themselves from this.
14:19 Now, who created this, this society in which we live?
14:29 Come on, answer me; you raised the question.
14:38 Who created this society, which is so extraordinarily destructive, so violent, all the rest of it; you know all about it; you pick up a newspaper, every morning nothing but politics – right?...
14:56 Q: Yes.
14:57 K: ... - nothing but murder, violence, wars.
15:05 Who created that?
15:07 Q: But it seems that you're just born into it.
15:10 K: No, but you may be...
15:12 Q: (Inaudible).
15:13 K: You and I may be born into it, but I’m asking who created it? Who brought this about?
15:21 Q: History; ages of evolution or human development or whatever.
15:34 K: Yes; history, human progress – which means what?
15:45 Think it out. Don't just say progress, development, history, but history is the story of man.
15:58 Right? Right? Are you following all this? Does this interest you?
16:12 Who created all this? Human beings, obviously; your parents and my parents, their parents, generation after generation and before – right?
16:27 - they have created this.
16:28 Q: Sir, I can see the description that you gave of what life is, or what we think it is, but…
16:36 K: Not what I think it is.
16:39 Q: Or what we think it is, or what we’re doing.
16:42 K: What it is. Ah, no, there is a difference between what is, what is actually happening, and what you think is happening.
16:49 Q: Okay…
16:50 K: Not ‘okay’... (Laughter) K: Don't jump so quickly to ‘okay’ and say you want to get (inaudible).
16:59 First see the difference: what is actually taking place; what you think is taking place.
17:09 You see the difference?
17:17 Q: But the question that arises for me is this: I feel that things like, you know, getting a job, earning money, all those things are things on the surface, but then one has the idea that life cannot be only that but there is... we have that idea that there's something…
17:35 K: More.
17:36 Q: …some purpose to life, you know, that we’re here for some purpose and so, I mean…
17:39 K: Purpose Q: …the question that always comes to my mind is, you know, what is it? Why is it all here?
17:46 K: Yes; we’ll come to that presently, if you don't mind. Do you mind waiting a bit?
17:52 Q: No.
17:53 K: I'm not being patronizing or facetious or… You’ve jumped too far ahead.
18:06 First we realized the society is created by human beings - right? - by your father, by your mother, by your grandfather and so on; by the past parents - right? - of which part of you is.
18:26 Right? You are part of this: conglomeration of hates, anxieties, guilt, violence; you're part of all this - agree? - because you also want to be ambitious; you want a job; you want this, you want...
18:51 This is what man has created and you want it too - right? - and so you say, ‘That is...
19:02 I don't want it, but I'm going to join a small community where I hope all this won't exist.’ Right?
19:16 Is there such community, where man is not against man - right?
19:24 - man in the sense, man, woman is not against each other; they are unselfish; they want to live a totally harmonious life, without any opinions, any judgements, any...
19:47 Right?
19:48 Q: Here.
19:50 K: Is there such a group?
19:57 Does that group exist at Brockwood? Go on, sir, answer me; you're all responsible.
20:07 I'm not just … I'm a visitor; rather responsible visitor, but I'm also a visitor because I stay here for a little while and go... move.
20:24 But I'm asking: here is a community and are they... do they want to live that way or attempting to live that way?
20:44 Q: No, that seems to be more... (inaudible).
20:49 K: What?
20:50 Q: We are attempting to live that way.
20:51 K: That’s it; that’s what I said that – attempting to live that way; would you agree to that?
20:58 Okay? (Laughter) K: And to live together in a small community of this kind you have to be extraordinarily sensitive.
21:24 Right? Are you?
21:35 Sensitive not only to your own desires, to your own reactions, but to the others; that one doesn’t hold to one’s own opinion everlastingly but say, ‘I’ll put aside my opinion, my judgement; let's talk about it, so that I can drop mine, and you can drop yours; so that… all of us want to live together in a harmonious, non-contradictory life.’ Right?
22:10 Will you do it?
22:21 Will you drop your opinions and not hold onto them? ‘I think so. I won't … This is right.’ If I say something, ‘Oh, you belong to the past generation.’ You follow?
22:36 Can we, both of us, have a dialogue so that we discover our own prejudices, our own idiosyncrasies, our own absurdities, idiocies, and say, ‘All right, I’ll let go’?
22:47 Will you do that? And will you point out to me, living in this community, if I'm dishonest?
23:09 I don't mean steal money only, take money that doesn’t belong to me, but, be honest to oneself so that if I tell you this is so, when I say I've dropped my prejudice, I've dropped it.
23:27 That’s honesty. Will you do all this?
23:34 Q: It’s difficult.
23:37 K: He says it’s difficult. Why? No, just see why. Don't say it’s difficult and stop there. Why is it difficult?
23:48 Q: You’ve been hanging onto something for so many years… (inaudible).
23:55 K: I know.
23:56 Q: (Inaudible).
23:57 K: I know; but you’ve used the word difficult, which means what?
24:05 Difficult to come to this state, to this happy, friendly, affectionate relationship with each other, and you say it’s difficult.
24:21 Why? Find out. Don't just say it’s difficult and stop there. Why have we made everything so difficult?
24:30 Q: Because...
24:32 K: No... (inaudible) listen to my question first. Why have we made our life, all the things that we do, make it so difficult?
24:46 You understand...? Why has everything become difficult? Difficult to pass exams; difficult to have a good relationship with another; difficult to think clearly - you follow? - so why have we… how is it that life has become so extraordinarily difficult?
25:20 He raised the question; he said: what is the purpose of life? What is the meaning of life? One knows all the obvious things – wars, degeneration, and all the ugliness that goes on.
25:37 Beyond that, what is it all about?
25:44 And to find that out has become also very difficult.
25:49 Q: Would it be because you’d rather stay in the position that you are right now, but, just say that, well, I want to be a happy man, but you’d rather be as you are?
26:03 I mean...
26:05 K: Is that what makes it difficult? Because we want to remain as we are - just listen carefully - as we are; which means what?
26:20 Struggle, conflict, the whole thing, just… we don't want to leave that.
26:28 Is that what makes life so difficult?
26:36 Think it out; use your... Go into it. Don't just say it’s difficult and then stop there. Why has our life so... has become so extraordinarily complex, difficult... - you follow?
27:09 - why?
27:13 Q: If you cling to something then you're bound to have friction, and this very friction seems to be making things difficult.
27:26 K: Are you saying: ‘I am... one is attached to something and to let go is difficult’?
27:30 Q: No... what creates difficulty is not to let go.
27:38 K: Yes, that’s the same thing, sir, to let go.
27:46 Why? You're not looking at it carefully.
27:49 Q: It’s part of what you said before; it’s a fact that you are like this, and it’s an ideal to be like something else, so obviously you stick with the fact.
28:03 K: So you are saying, are you, that fact is one thing - fact, the happening, the actual is one thing, and the ideal, the ideas, the theories, the philosophies, the... all that is non-fact.
28:27 Q: Yes.
28:28 K: Therefore we hold onto the non-fact, and it’s difficult to face the fact.
28:37 Is that it? And therefore we say it’s very difficult. Go into it with me; we’re going step by step.
28:48 We’re going to answer the other question too, which is, what is the meaning of all this awful life?
28:55 Right? Don't go to asleep; that’s what you asked. (Laughter) K: We’re going to find out.
29:01 Q: I think it’s also difficult because we’re confused, you know; we don’t see what…
29:13 (inaudible).
29:14 K: No, lady, I have asked why we use the word difficult; why we think everything we do is difficult - practically everything, except breathing, and perhaps sensory responses, sex, and a few things.
29:38 Even there everything becomes monstrous. So I'm asking, when you say difficult, what do you mean by that?
29:53 Q: Well, when you think about it, then it seems kind of…
30:06 K: You think about it and therefore it become difficult?
30:08 Q: Yes; that you won’t be able to reach it...
30:11 K: Is that what you're saying? Tura agrees with you. I want to find out; is that so?
30:19 Q: Well, it’s like you think about going running, and you think that’s difficult, but when you're actually running it’s not difficult at all.
30:28 It’s just when we keep thinking about things that they become difficult. It’s like what Shane said, the fact itself is not difficult; it’s…
30:39 K: What you bring to the fact.
30:42 Q: Yes.
30:43 K: Is that what makes life difficult?
30:50 What do you...? Ah, no, don't throw up your eyes. I want to ask you; just find out.
31:02 Q: I mean, maybe what she’s saying is... (inaudible).
31:23 I mean, when you’re doing something, you... (inaudible)… all this homework and all...
31:25 K: (Laughs) Q: ... the exams and all these... (inaudible) and things like that and then you...
31:33 (inaudible) past syllabus and then you... and you start thinking and just, you know, exaggerating the size… (inaudible).
31:35 K: So you’re saying...
31:36 Q: (Inaudible).
31:37 K: Are you saying – just a minute - are you saying the actual doing is different from thinking about it?
31:42 Q: Yes... (inaudible).
31:44 K: Wait, wait; go... you're too…. Slowly. The doing, mathematics, whatever it is, and the thinking about it makes it difficult.
31:58 You say that’s one of the difficulties. The other is: the fact and the non-fact - we've been through that - which is, the non-fact is not what is actually going on – observing, seeing, listening, acting, doing, but the idea about it; the idea about is different from what is taking place.
32:38 So that’s one of the difficulties. Go on; explore a little more.
32:43 Q: When you notice... when you see that something is not quite right, instead of looking at that, you…
32:51 (inaudible).
32:52 K: So you say you're doing something and you find it’s not correct, and to make it correct is difficult.
33:08 Is that it? Examine it carefully; find out for yourself why life has become so extraordinarily difficult, because you're going to face this, and the older people are also facing this.
33:35 Q: There are things which are obviously physically difficult to do…
33:42 K: Oh, of course; understood.
33:43 Q: ...and it seems that we’re talking about difficulties which arise with thought.
33:48 K: So you’re saying it is both physical and psychic; which is, psyche; which means psychosomatic; psyche and soma is the body and so on.
34:03 So it is... the whole thing has become - what?
34:13 Q: It seems that I’m constantly struggling to stay afloat; I mean, in my relationship, in the things I do, I have to push, I have to assert myself, I have to succeed, I have to do, I have to… or else, you know, I’ll become... (inaudible).
34:30 K: All right; so you’ve explained why difficulties exist. Right? Now, is there a way of living without this difficulty? It’s a question mark; it isn't there is or there isn't; we’re asking if there is a different way of living in which nothing is difficult.
34:57 Q: I haven’t understood why things are difficult.
35:05 K: You’ve listened to all them, haven’t you?
35:09 Q: Yes.
35:10 K: And also our desires vary; our desires are contradictory.
35:20 One desire is stronger than the other, and the other is battling with the... so there is this constant division; division in thought.
35:37 I would like to be… - what? - the richest man in the world or whatever you want to be, and also I say what's the point of it?
35:50 You want to be happy, and also you feel, you know, depressed and this, that, so there is always in our life this contradiction.
36:08 And to bring a balance, you find that’s very difficult - right?
36:16 - not to have... - not a balance, sorry - not to have a contradiction, you find that’s very difficult. If I am greedy after money - greedy: I want money, money, money, and I struggle, I cheat, I do all kinds of things, but at the same time there is in me, say, ‘Please behave properly; a little bit honestly’, so there's a contradiction.
36:44 You’re following all this? Now, I'm asking you, is it possible... is there a way of living which is not all this?
36:58 Come on, answer it, sirs.. You don't know. Is that the purpose of life: to live a life in which every action, every thinking, every feeling is harmonious?
37:22 Q: If the problem is a contradiction between the fact and the non-fact, that would bring about a contradiction and therefore the difficulty, would it mean that if you go either way, if you either really only face the fact or if you totally live in a sort of illusionary world, wouldn’t there be no contradiction, therefore no difficulty?
37:50 K: Oh yes, there would; there would. Your wife or your husband say, ‘Come down; face... don't live in a world of ideas; you have to go and earn… go to the market and buy…’ You follow?
38:07 You will be soon under pressure.
38:10 Q: What about if you just stick to the facts?
38:12 K: Which is... (inaudible) as long as you stick to the fact, there is no difficulty.
38:19 Q: Yes; right.
38:21 K: When you say, ‘I lie,’ that’s a fact; but when you begin to say, ‘I mustn’t lie; the reasons why I lie…’ but I say, ‘Yes, I lie,’ and why I lied I know; I'm aware of all the consequences of lying, and I say I won't do it anymore - you follow?
38:49 - so I'm fully aware of what I'm doing.
38:58 If I'm dishonest, I say I'm dishonest. I don't pretend to be honest; I don't put on a mask, a different mask each time I meet different people - you follow? - all that’s gone.
39:18 So we have described the difficulties of life. Right? Right? We have also described verbally what it is to live a harmonious life.
39:34 So these two are there.
39:42 What will you do?
39:50 What is your urge, in which direction?
39:57 Don't pretend; don't say, ‘I want both.’ You must have a little money - you follow?
40:17 - shelter, clothes; that’s admitted; that’s allowed; that’s natural. So you have to find out for yourself what is your innate... - not... - what's your urge, in which direction?
40:42 Ravi, what's your direction?
40:56 Your fathers, your mothers, your parents want you to do this, go in that direction and you say, ‘Yes, my father tells me and I’ll go and do it.’ Or you say, ‘Well, that’s... my father has given money so I must...
41:25 I’m responsible for it, so I must yield to him.’ So you find innumerable escapes or explanations but your tendency is in that direction.
41:43 Right? Right? I’m asking you; I'm not saying it is.
41:47 Q: But I can only answer what I want now. I don’t know what I want tomorrow, I mean.
41:54 K: What is it you want now? No examinations (laughs) I understand that. (Laughter) K: What is it you want now?
42:06 Q: At this moment I want to live a balanced life, but...
42:15 K: All right; wait. At this moment you want… (inaudible) why?
42:22 Q: Why?
42:24 K: Yes. Now, careful; listen carefully, I've asked a question: Why?
42:32 Find out; which is, are you accepting the idea of a harmonious life - the idea, the description - or the fact of it?
42:56 If you see the fact, nothing else is difficult. Do you understand my point? Do you understand what I'm saying?
43:09 Q: I don't see how you can see what a harmonious life is when you don't have it… (inaudible).
43:17 K: I’ll... Just listen. She said... Tura said this: ‘I want to live a harmonious life.
43:29 I see that now.’ Right?
43:39 Q: What if you don't want anything?
43:48 K: That’s a different matter. She wants it. I may not want it. That’s a different matter. We are talking about a person who says, ‘I want… I feel that now. I want to live that way now.’ Right?
44:16 Is the now, that urge to live that way a reality, a thing actual or induced?
44:23 You understand? Induced, pressurized, because I'm…
44:34 I'm not influencing you; I'm not stimulating you; I'm not putting you under any pressure, but we’re pointing out; we’re examining the two.
44:50 And you say, ‘That is what I want to do now’ - right? – ‘that one, that... (inaudible).’ Then what's the difficulty?
45:02 Q: That it’s now and you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow; I mean, it’s...
45:14 K: Ah, ah, there is no tomorrow (laughs).
45:19 Q: (Inaudible).
45:21 K: Wait; you haven’t understood this. Go slowly. You understand this? This is very important for you to understand this.
45:40 I want to live a totally harmonious life now.
45:49 Right? It’s not an idea; it’s not a concept; it’s not an ideal which I'm going to pursue.
46:01 If... ideal which I'm going to pursue implies tomorrow.
46:08 Careful; listen carefully. Ideal implies the pursuit of it, which is tomorrow. Right? So it is not an ideal; it is not a concept; it is not a verbal comprehension.
46:29 It is an actuality which I feel I must live that way.
46:38 Do you see that? (Inaudible)... that’s what's happening, therefore why are you concerned about tomorrow, which is an idea?
47:05 Got it?
47:06 Q: (Inaudible).
47:07 K: No, go slowly; you haven’t got it. Thought has projected what might happen tomorrow. I might move away from this fact which I've understood now.
47:24 You're following all this? Not quite. The actual moment now is the urge... this fact that it is so.
47:39 I want to live that way; I’m going to live that way. But thought says, ‘Wait a minute, tomorrow what's going to happen? Will this same urge continue?’ You follow? Are you following this? So thought creates the idea you might not.
48:03 Are you following? Are you following all this? So you have created a difficulty; you have created a contradiction.
48:19 I'm not concerned about tomorrow; we’ll see.
48:24 Q: I mean, sir, in a sense, sometimes your question is misleading because you say, ‘Will you live that way’, which implies the future.
48:34 K: No, we... I said... no.
48:38 Q: Will you continue... (inaudible)?
48:39 K: That is what is actually happening, that there are wars, that there are divisions, class differences, politics, (inaudible) - you follow? - all that’s happening now.
49:01 And if I don't want to live that way now, I'm out of it.
49:12 It may be… - wait, wait; you haven’t understood carefully - it may be temporary - you follow?
49:20 - it may be because somebody has told you what a marvellous way of living and you like that.
49:27 Then it becomes an idea, but it’s not an actuality.
49:34 Q: Why not? I mean, if it’s temporary, why isn't it an actuality?
49:43 K: Because if it... Look, if it’s actual, it’s actual all the time. The sun sets at a certain time - that’s actual.
49:56 You're missing the point in this.
50:03 The fact can never vary, can it?
50:12 What you think about the fact can vary.
50:20 This is a little difficult; leave it; leave it, leave it; you're not used to this kind of…
50:31 So let's approach it differently. What is the purpose of all this? You’re studying history, mathematics, geography, and all the rest, physics, passing A-level, O-level, or not passing A-level and O-level and struggling, struggling; that’s one point, as your so-called education.
50:52 Then there is whole life in front of you; for all of us, not just you; a vast, complex, contradictory, inhuman life ahead of me.
51:11 I love you; you don't love me; I want to love you and you say you love me and I find that I don't love you, and you get hurt, you get...
51:26 You follow? You know all this, don’t you? Or you’re too young...? No, you’re not too young; you know all this.
51:38 And the struggle, the competition, the constant propaganda of commercialism, consumerism; you know all that: buy, buy, buy, buy; television - you follow? - the ads in newspapers, and so on and so on and so on.
52:10 What is the meaning of all this? Right, sir? You asked this question. What is the purpose, what is the significance of all this? Has it any? Ravi will probably become a doctor - I don’t know - or an engineer, and what for?
52:46 To build bridges, for the rest of his life, build walls, little houses, lay rails?
52:56 If he’s not that, he becomes a physicist, exploring the atom, all that.
53:03 You follow? What is it all for? I don't know if you saw it last night, or a few nights ago, television, the army, how they are preparing - right? - the navy; all the time preparing - for what?
53:34 For a war, to be prepared. You understand? What is all this for? Come on, sirs, you asked this question.
53:48 So you ask this question, and the professor, the philosopher, the priests tell you what it is for - right?
54:12 Right? - the priest says, ‘You live in sin; only God can save you; believe this’ - you follow? - and the whole religious world is based on this.
54:36 Right? Or you invent your own purpose, which is, my… you say, ‘Well, God isn't my purpose; my purpose is to have lots of money, nice house, big...’ You invent a purpose.
55:06 Right? Are you following all this? So what is the truth in this matter? What is the purpose... first of all, what is the purpose... the way we are living?
55:20 Go on, sir, find out.
55:33 Is there any purpose in the way we’re living? We, not... the world, our fathers, mothers, grandfathers, and all the rest of it, and your neighbours, and your... the prime minister - you follow? - all the whole lot of them, ninety nine percent of them.
55:54 What’s the purpose of it all? To live happily? Right? I want to live happily, therefore I must have a lot of money. I must have a yacht... – ah, not a yacht; that’s too much - I must have... - what? – a Rolls Royce; that’s a bit too much too. So I’ll say a Mini . (Laughter) Q: I don't know, you’ve got fifty years or whatever, and it’s a lot of time and you want to fill it up.
56:36 K: What? (Laughter) Q: (Inaudible)... you’ve got a lot of time, and you just decide to fill it up with something.
56:45 Some people choose to do one job; some people choose to do another.
56:48 K: Yes, yes; you do one thing; I’ll do another thing.
56:52 Q: Yes.
56:53 K: I'm asking: what’s the purpose of your doing it, what’s the purpose of my doing? What is it all for?
56:58 Q: For nothing; for just living; I mean, it’s not for something. I'm not doing it for God. I mean, maybe a religious person does it for God.
57:06 K: No, I'm just asking; you paint a picture; somebody composes; somebody becomes an engineer.
57:14 You paint, compose, build, and at the end of it - what?
57:23 Q: It falls apart. The buildings fall apart; the paintings are burned or... things don't stay on.
57:32 K: Watch it; watch it. No, you are... Look at it carefully. I compose; it gives me great happiness because the sound, the beauty of the sound in my head - you follow?
57:51 - I must put it down on a piece of paper, or sing it, and I feel I've fulfilled; I'm happy.
58:05 So... - watch it carefully - so composition, music is my work, but I may lead a rotten life.
58:22 I may beat my wife, or the wife beats me (laughs). So - watch it - so what? At the end of it - what? I've been very happy in composing marvellous music. It will be probably perpetuated generation after generation, like Beethoven, Mozart and all the rest of it.
58:49 And then other side of me, other side is ugly - right?
58:56 - not pleasant; unhappy; poverty. I don't like this woman; I like that woman or that man or... so there is this struggle going on.
59:10 So one asks: what is the meaning of all this?
59:15 Q: Why should it have a meaning?
59:23 K: Oh. He asked that question; he said what is the purpose, the meaning of all this, something beyond all this.
59:34 There may be no meaning - wait - if there is no meaning to all this, you know what that implies?
59:49 Go on, think it out; what does it imply?
59:56 Q: We’re wasting our time.
1:00:01 Q: (Inaudible).
1:00:02 K: Not only waste, but go into it, sir; don't stop there. If it has no purpose, why should I earn a livelihood?
1:00:15 I might just as well commit suicide.
1:00:18 Q: Yes.
1:00:20 K: Ah, wait...
1:00:22 Q: Is that what we are doing?
1:00:26 K: Others may be doing...
1:00:27 Q: (Inaudible).
1:00:28 K: ...only call it civilization, fulfilment, marvellous this and marvellous that. They may be committing suicide. They don't know.
1:00:35 Q: Yes.
1:00:36 K: But that’s not my point. Our question is, if this has no meaning whatsoever - right? - then what are you doing?
1:00:51 Q: The fact is we have to live, so we make the best of it.
1:01:00 K: All right; just live.
1:01:01 Q: Just live?
1:01:02 K: Just live. Do some odd job Q: (Inaudible).
1:01:05 Q: (Inaudible)... so we have to build a house... (inaudible) we’ve got to sleep somewhere. (Laughter) Q: (Inaudible)... I do something else... (inaudible).
1:01:18 K: So you have a purpose.
1:01:24 Q: (Inaudible).
1:01:25 K: Wait. So you must have clothes, food, and shelter.
1:01:31 Q: Yes.
1:01:33 Q: You could always... (inaudible).
1:01:35 K: That doesn’t... he’s not talking about that. He says beyond all this is there a purpose. Right? Come on, Ravi. Everybody must have food, and clothes; natural.
1:01:42 Q: (Inaudible)... is that enough? I mean, basically is that enough?
1:01:44 K: Oh, if you're satisfied with that.
1:01:47 Q: No, I might not be satisfied with that but, I mean, you have that purpose; why do you want to find something so that you can say I want to work as an engineer or something like that?
1:02:00 Q: So why do you do exams?
1:02:05 Q: Well, I do them whether I like it or not; I have no choice.
1:02:16 K: Ravi, you’re not being very honest. Forgive me. If you say, ‘I'm just satisfied building a little house, having a little money, little clothes, a few this and that, that’s all right; I don't want any more.’ Is that what you're saying?
1:02:40 Q: (Inaudible).
1:02:41 K: Ah, just... don't fool around with it.
1:02:43 Q: No, I'm not fooling around; I'm trying to say that, like he said, what's the purpose of becoming an engineer or something.
1:02:50 K: I didn’t… engineer gives you a better job, more money, better house.
1:02:59 Q: No, it also makes you able to build the house, I mean, for people to live in.
1:03:07 I mean, we just said that shelter and food are necessities for life, for physical living.
1:03:14 Somebody has to grow the food, build the house. Ravi may choose to be an engineer just because you need engineers.
1:03:20 K: Why can't we all of us have a little food, clothes and shelter? Why only the very few?
1:03:26 Q: Well, if you have more money then you feel more secure.
1:03:34 K: You don’t understand all this.
1:03:36 Q: (Inaudible).
1:03:37 K: No, you're not facing the problem.
1:03:40 Q: Well, if you have money, then you won't be the one who goes hungry... (inaudible) without shelter.
1:03:47 K: So that’s your purpose.
1:03:48 Q: Yes.
1:03:49 Q: Yes.
1:03:50 K: And he says that is all right, but that’s not enough.
1:03:56 Q: But that’s not the fact. The fact is our purpose is to… I mean, we have all kinds of purposes.
1:04:06 K: I know; that’s why I said to Ravi you're not being quite honest. If you say, ‘I'm just satisfied with having a house, all the rest of it, and a little money, it’s all right, I’m not... nothing matters.’ Q: But that’s the fact.
1:04:17 Q: But there must be another purpose. I mean, it’s not possible that everything exists just for nothing... (inaudible).
1:04:19 K: That’s what we’re asking.
1:04:20 Q: Well, is it correct to ask that question?
1:04:27 K: Why not?
1:04:32 Q: Well, I think, you know, we make up all kinds of intellectual purposes we can pursue but it’s all... (inaudible).
1:04:51 K: Yes, sir, but is that so? Is that so? I have a little house, little money, and a job.
1:05:03 That’s a fact. But I'm not satisfied with that. That’s also a fact. I want a bigger house, so...
1:05:16 Q: Yes, and you make this a purpose... (inaudible).
1:05:21 K: You follow? So he asks: I know all that – the more, the more, the more – I know all that, but is there something beyond all that?
1:05:32 If you say, ‘Well, I'm quite satisfied with the purpose I have, which is the more’, - you understand the more?
1:05:44 More food, more clothes, better clothes, better food, bigger house - the more. If you are satisfied with that; nobody is, because the moment I have little I want more, because you have a better house, and so on.
1:06:09 The question is - that’s a fact – the question is, he asks: is there something beyond all this?
1:06:16 Q: I mean, it seems like all other creatures of the earth, I mean, we’re born, and so once you're born you have no choice but to survive, so you begin surviving, but we also have created the idea, or maybe we think that maybe because we’re more intelligent than other creatures, we feel there's something other than life, some other state... (inaudible) we create, things that are spiritual… (inaudible).
1:06:43 K: Yes, sir. Look, look, look. I survive, but also I know I'm going to die - right?
1:06:55 Right? - so I say I want to know why I'm going to die; why does…? You follow? This curiosity, the inquiry is not just food, clothes and shelter.
1:07:09 You come along and tell me, ‘Look, meditate.’ I say, ‘What do you mean by that?’ And you say, ‘Look, your mind is so stupid; you can have... by meditating your mind will be extraordinary.’ And I say I want to know what that is.
1:07:32 You follow? And somebody comes along and says, ‘There is God. That is the purpose of life, to find God.’ Right?
1:07:50 Or the purpose in life is enlightenment, and so on and so on.
1:07:56 Q: But you're going to die anyway, whether you do one way or another.
1:08:01 K: I want to find out what it means. Of course I'm going to die one way or the other. Nobody’s going to prevent it. It may take a long time or a short time, but while I'm living I say what is it all about?
1:08:19 What is death? What is meditation? What is relationship? What is love? What is…? I have such agony - what does it mean? Why do I suffer? Not physically - right? - I want to know. Or there is no reason at all, I just…. - you follow?
1:08:44 - I’ll die; I will suffer; I will have no affection; I’ll have no sense of love; I’ll just live, like a …. Is that what is going to happen to you?
1:09:05 Or you invent a purpose, or somebody else has invented a purpose and you say, ‘I must...
1:09:16 for that I’m going to live.’ Q: It seems that, I mean, there’s like... there's a stream flowing, and you're in the stream, and so you either paint pictures and read books and do everything everyone else does or live in some kind of unreal world.
1:09:41 K: All right; so you call this real world, which it is – right?
1:09:48 Right? - this is the real world, the stream in which we’re all caught, and we go along with it.
1:10:02 But somebody says, ‘No, sorry, I'm not going to go along with this current.
1:10:11 I'm going to step out of it. I don't like it. It’s a horror... etc. I'm going to move out of it.’ Why not?
1:10:24 Q: So do you make finding out your purpose?
1:10:28 K: No, I'm going to move out of this. That may be my purpose. I don't like this; I am not going to live that way.
1:10:40 Q: That brings us back to that question, so okay, that Tura said, you know, ‘I want to live that way now,’ and you said, ‘Then what's the difficulty?’ K: What?
1:10:52 Q: When Tura said some time ago, she said, ‘I want to live that way now…’ K: That means you are living.
1:11:02 Q: …and you said, ‘What's the difficulty, then?’ K: No... when you say this is actual, you are doing it; it’s not a theory.
1:11:12 I explained all that.
1:11:14 Q: Yes, but you say you want to leave the stream, and then that… then you start…
1:11:22 you get...
1:11:23 K: No; old boy, you didn’t... Personally, I don't want to belong to that stream.
1:11:32 You may say, ‘You're cuckoo; you live in a kind of illusion; you are a nut; you're a freak’, anything you like, but I say I don't want to live that way.
1:11:45 Q: I think many here realize that.
1:11:48 K: Ah?
1:11:49 Q: I think many here realise the insanity and don't want to live that way.
1:11:53 K: Then move. Don't say, ‘I don't want to live that way,’ and live that way. That’s dishonest.
1:12:01 Q: But one wants to know where one is moving to.
1:12:10 Q: Yes.
1:12:11 K: Ah... You see, that’s… you want... moment you say where you are moving to, you belong to the stream.
1:12:19 Q: Why?
1:12:20 K: Ah, just listen carefully; don't say, ‘Why?’ Must I explain every...?
1:12:29 Take... moment you say, ‘I don't want to live that way,’ and you say, ‘Where then shall I move?’ - right? - you follow this?
1:12:43 Are you following this? - what you have you done?
1:12:46 Q: You’re just jumping from one stream to another stream.
1:12:52 K: That’s all. (Laughter) K: Got it.
1:12:59 Q: Yes.
1:13:01 K: Right, Ravi, have you got it? So is that an idea or an actuality?
1:13:14 If you leave this stream, and say, ‘Where am I going to?
1:13:21 Is there security for me at the other end?’ - you have created the same pattern - right?
1:13:31 - so you haven’t moved at all.
1:13:45 Do you see that? No? All right, let's go into it. What is the stream? Everybody wanting security - right? - in his own way, more, less.
1:14:11 If I... if one gets an idea, ‘If we all eat vegetables, all the problems will be solved; or if you eat only bananas…’ (Laughter) K: You know all this, don't you?
1:14:29 So this stream consists of this desire, urge for each one of us to find a little corner to be secure.
1:14:44 Right? It may be security with a lot of money, and so on, but secure, certain.
1:14:53 When you move out of there, and say, ‘Please, before I move, make me quite sure there is something else’ – you get it? – you're back in the same thing.
1:15:08 If you understand this, that you have not moved, when you want to be safe when you leave; you’ve got it?
1:15:22 So we’re ask... is there a meaning to all this?
1:15:31 Q: Well, sir, I feel there is a meaning to it, but I also feel that I don't want to label it.
1:15:54 K: I'm not labelling.
1:15:55 Q: (Inaudible).
1:15:56 K: I’m... I have a feeling; I want to tell you about my feeling; I find the right word or I verbalise it, but the words are not the thing.
1:16:08 I say to you, ‘I love you.’ The word is not the feeling.
1:16:20 The word is not the whole depth of it, the fullness of it, the beauty of it, the excellency of it.
1:16:28 If you say, ‘I cannot verbalise,’ then I can't tell you that I love you.
1:16:38 Right? So, it’s twenty past one; yes, twenty past one.
1:16:49 Do we stop or do we go on?
1:16:52 Q: About meaning... (inaudible).
1:16:55 K: About the meaning, that’ll take a little longer. Do you really want to find out the meaning?
1:17:07 And what will you pay for it? Not in coin; not in exchange, which is, I tell you what it is and you give me something in return.
1:17:28 So it is... are you willing to pay for something to find out?
1:17:36 You understand what we mean by pay?
1:17:44 Oh, yes. When you go to a movie, cinema, you pay.
1:17:51 Q: Well, there's an exchange; I mean, you get something back.
1:17:53 K: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. When you go to a cinema, you pay. When you go to church, you light a candle or pay the priest. Wait, wait, don't be snooty about it. You pay. When you want to read a book, you pay for the book. When you want a job, you struggle for it. When you want to pass an exam, you study. That is, you give something in return for something else. So here, it is not that you pay for something in return, but are you willing?
1:18:42 Do you want to find out the full depth of what is the purpose of life?
1:18:50 What will you do? Come on, sir, you asked that question; what will you do?
1:19:00 Just sit down and argue?
1:19:03 Q: I have to... (inaudible) a living, I mean.
1:19:07 K:Ah, ah... I said, look, what will you do? You’ve asked the question. Is it a verbal question, just say, ‘Well, what’s the purpose of life, old boy? Let’s talk about it, between two lunches.’ Or do you say, ‘Look, I want to find out’?
1:19:28 You understand my question? Are you willing to give your energy to it? Or you may not, you say, ‘Sorry, I’m not interested.
1:19:44 I'm only interested in my exams and getting a job, and that’s all right.’ But since you’ve asked the question, since you are inquiring into it, and you say, ‘What am I willing to do to find out?’ The church says celibacy, vow of poverty.
1:20:19 We’ll brush all those aside. What do you say, ‘I will give; I will do this to find out’?
1:20:30 You understand my question? Of course you understand. Unless you are very, very serious and say, ‘Look, I must find out,’ you won't find out; it’ll be a verbal… - you know?
1:20:56 - exchange, theories: ‘God is; God is not; your purpose is to live happily; your purpose is to find Nirvana, enlightenment’ - you follow?
1:21:06 - anything. But you say, ‘I really want to find out.’ Do you?
1:21:26 He’s too clever to answer.
1:21:35 Q: (Inaudible).
1:21:38 K: That’s right. You know what people have done to find out? They have fasted; they have tortured themselves; they have gone to the desert and lived alone, or in the Himalayas, do this... they have done everything to find out.
1:22:13 And you won't even turn the page to find out (laughs). Right?
1:22:18 Q: But, I mean, by fasting and half-killing yourself… (inaudible).
1:22:25 K: I said all that stuff.
1:22:28 Q: We won't.
1:22:29 K: I certainly won't.
1:22:32 Q: Even I know I won’t , and I definitely wouldn't like to fast.
1:22:47 (Laughter) K: Quite right, old boy, don't fast (laughs).
1:22:57 You know, to find out, you have to do something, haven’t you? You have to exercise your brain; you have to exercise your affection, your sensitivity to find out something, because this may be the most important thing in life.
1:23:18 May be, I said it… - careful; I used ‘may be’. So it’s something which demands great weight on your part or you...
1:23:29 what will you do? Just sit and discuss about it? Or join a little community? Or go to... become a Catholic? They are all doing this, don’t… or become a Buddhist? Or go off to Japan and learn Zen? Or join some guru? People are doing this, pouring their money.
1:24:00 Q: Well, isn’t it...?
1:24:05 K: Like that guru said, ‘Give me all your property, everything; you’ll have no trouble.’ (Laughter) Q: Well, isn't it more that you're not doing any of this?
1:24:25 K: So what will you do? If you don't do any of these things, why? Why don't you?
1:24:34 Q: Because I see it’s stupid.
1:24:36 K: So what makes you say it’s stupid?
1:24:39 Q: (Inaudible).
1:24:40 K: Go... Sir, don’t be too quick in answering. When you say… please, sir, you understand? People, saints, friends I know have been through extraordinary things; don’t…
1:25:01 torturing themselves to find this, if there is a meaning. And you can’t say, ‘Well, that’s stupid.’ But find out why you call it stupid.
1:25:08 Q: Because I did it and it didn’t lead me anywhere... (inaudible).
1:25:13 K: Ah, no; no, no; no, you're too young to do... (inaudible).
1:25:23 Q: (Inaudible).
1:25:24 K: No, I mean, intelligent people have done this, so-called very learned, very serious, scholars.
1:25:34 Sir, I can tell you many, many things people have done, who have shown it to me, come to me, and say, ‘Look, I’ve done this, this, this, this, and I haven’t got it.’ So to find that out you must have a certain quality of mind, mustn’t you?
1:26:13 Right? Right? To learn mathematics you must have a certain quality of mind.
1:26:21 Q: But you know what you're learning. We’re coming back to the same point, that you know what you're learning.
1:26:29 K: Yes; here also, learn. Learn about those people who have fasted... tortured themselves, gone away by themselves.
1:26:44 I know a man, for twenty-five years he meditated. He had a very good job, one of the top jobs, and he said, ‘What's the point of it?’ He gave it up, and for twenty-five years; and he came to one of the talks I was giving, and he came to see me the next day, and he said, ‘I know what I've done: I’ve lived in illusion for twenty-five years.’ You understand what I'm saying?
1:27:20 And you say that’s all stupid. You can only say that it’s stupid when you understand it...
1:27:30 Q: (Inaudible).
1:27:32 K: ...which means you have understood that no sacrifice - you understand?
1:27:44 - no giving up, no vows, nothing is going to make you realise something.
1:27:55 And to say... to come to that point means that you’ve got an extraordinary mind.
1:28:08 Right? Have you got that mind, to find that out?
1:28:19 Or will you in learning about it have that mind? So will you learn - not from books and that kind of stuff - learn about yourself, how you behave, how you talk, how you walk; learn everything.
1:28:51 Time. Shall we stop now?
1:28:54 Q: Yes.
1:28:56 K: You must all be hungry, yes? Right.