Krishnamurti Subtitles

The relationship between teacher and student

Brockwood Park - 17 June 1979

Discussion with Teachers 2.1



0:49 Harsh Tanka:
Krishnaji,
  
0:53 there's a lot of unrest in
education these days,
  
0:59 there's a lot of debate
 
1:02 and a lot of people are asking
questions about it.
  
1:07 But most of these questions seem
to be about systems of education
  
1:15 and methods of teaching
and what subjects to teach.
  
1:22 And there seems to be
a lot of confusion
  
1:24 and none of them seems
to get to any point.
  
1:32 Krishnamurti: Don't you think
we ought to first enquire
  
1:38 what is education,
 
1:40 rather than what subjects,
what books, what system,
  
1:44 what kind of teachers and so on.
 
1:48 Shouldn't we first ask
 
1:51 why are we being educated?
 
1:55 The word education,
what it means.
  
1:58 But I'd like to ask,
if I may,
  
2:06 why we are being educated?
 
2:12 To fit to a system?
 
2:16 Into an establishment?
 
2:19 HT: A lot of education at present
is precisely for that.
  
2:24 K: Yes, so
is that what education is?
  
2:27 Does education mean that?
 
2:29 To conform to the social demand?
 
2:36 To a particular culture,
technological or otherwise,
  
2:43 which says you must fit into this,
you must conform,
  
2:49 or you must find your career,
your life,
  
2:53 in this particular system.
 
2:58 Is that
why you are being educated?
  
3:03 To have a good career,
 
3:07 to have capacity
to earn enough money, etc.,
  
3:14 is that
why you are being educated?
  
3:17 As you say, apparently it is so.
 
3:19 HT: Well, it would certainly seem
to be a necessary part of education
  
3:25 to prepare a student
to earn his livelihood.
  
3:28 K: Yes, part of it.
But even then I question it.
  
3:32 Let's go into it a little more
carefully, if we may.
  
3:38 One might educate a boy or a girl
 
3:44 to conform to a particular culture,
social demand,
  
3:48 technologically, as a career,
which is necessary, and so on,
  
3:54 but the rest of the whole
human complex existence
  
4:00 is totally neglected.
 
4:03 Would you say that it is so?
 
4:06 HT: I think some attempts are made
in some ways
  
4:11 to try and include that.
 
4:17 But it's hard to see exactly
where to go or what to do,
  
4:21 It's more of a feeling
that education should be more,
  
4:24 but exactly in what direction
is very unclear.
  
4:29 It also often involves some form
of rejection
  
4:33 of the society into which
you're going,
  
4:35 You see there's something wrong
with it
  
4:38 therefore you, in some way,
don't want to be a part of it.
  
4:42 K: What is the meaning
of existence?
  
4:45 Unless we tackle it
on a very large scale
  
4:47 I don't see how we're going to solve
a particular small problem.
  
4:57 What is the meaning of
human existence,
  
4:59 what is the significance of it?
 
5:04 If it is merely to earn
a livelihood,
  
5:06 merely to get a job,
you know,
  
5:11 it seems so limited,
so extraordinarily narrow.
  
5:19 Stephen Smith: It is narrow,
and yet it seems
  
5:21 that those very things are becoming
in fact more and more difficult,
  
5:25 because of the very structure
of society itself
  
5:29 and its own momentum,
its own structures.
  
5:33 K: Yes, over population.
 
5:35 We know all that,
need we go into all that?
  
5:39 Over population,
the destruction of the earth,
  
5:46 the whole ecology
and everything.
  
5:52 Is that why we have made life
so narrow and limited?
  
6:05 As a human being,
 
6:07 you've been to Oxford or Cambridge
or whatever university,
  
6:12 when you've got a degree,
a job,
  
6:15 and for the rest of your life
until you almost die,
  
6:19 you are caught into that,
 
6:22 you have responsibility for your
children, for your wife, all that.
  
6:27 So is that all?
 
6:32 Apparently that's all.
 
6:36 Or if you are slightly inclined
to be religious,
  
6:40 you go off and pop into a church
occasionally
  
6:45 and say, I believe in God,
and get on with it.
  
6:51 Is that
why we are being educated?
  
6:55 Brian Nicholson: It is about
all that's happening at the moment.
  
6:59 K: I know
that's what is happening.
  
7:03 And there, what is happening,
we want to improve it,
  
7:08 find a different system,
different methods,
  
7:10 different way of teaching,
and so on, to do what?
  
7:20 HT: It seems that education
should be preparation
  
7:24 for the whole of existence.
K: The whole of life,
  
7:29 instead of merely limiting it
to earning a livelihood.
  
7:34 I should have thought any serious
man concerned with education
  
7:39 is concerned with
the whole of existence of man,
  
7:43 man not as an Englishman,
a Frenchman, or an American,
  
7:47 as a human being.
 
7:56 So.
 
8:00 SS: You see, I think as religion
has declined in the West,
  
8:05 and generally, universally,
 
8:08 often the solutions that are sought
among teachers,
  
8:12 particularly a younger generation
of teachers,
  
8:15 are, generally speaking,
political.
  
8:19 Not necessarily party political,
but they are of a political nature,
  
8:26 suggesting that you improve
the world
  
8:36 by adopting a certain line,
 
8:39 or you have
a non-authoritarian approach
  
8:45 to the actual task of teaching,
 
8:47 and out of that possibly
something better will happen.
  
8:51 In other words you try
not to frighten the student,
  
8:55 or not to dominate him,
 
8:59 and in a sense challenge the values
of the society you are in,
  
9:06 which are consumer values,
sometimes going to the army,
  
9:13 almost generally
having some kind of career.
  
9:16 K: That's all, we are saying
the same thing.
  
9:20 SS: But this seems to be the level
at which it functions.
  
9:25 K: And are we challenging
in this meeting,
  
9:29 are we challenging
this whole approach to life?
  
9:34 SS: I think we are.
 
9:36 HT: I think we're asking whether
it's possible in a school
  
9:39 to educate for the whole of existence
rather than just...
  
9:43 K: Yes, and is that possible?
 
9:46 Mathew Mitchell:
Part of the problem is
  
9:48 we haven't been educated ourselves
for the whole of existence.
  
9:50 We're caught in the trap ourselves.
 
9:53 K: I understand that,
but as an educator,
  
9:58 how do you approach this problem?
 
10:08 On one hand you say
you must have a career, job, etc.,
  
10:12 and also you say no authority,
 
10:17 and also you say we must be concerned
with the whole of life.
  
10:25 Who is concerned with
the whole of life?
  
10:31 Not the politician, obviously,
nor the priests.
  
10:36 SS: Not even them.
 
10:38 HT: Not the priests.
 
10:39 K: Certainly not the priests.
 
10:41 Nor the army, nor the engineer,
 
10:46 nobody is concerned with
the whole of life.
  
10:49 Or are they?
 
10:55 SS: Poets claim to be, but I think
that's possibly partial too.
  
11:00 K: Are we exaggerating something
which is accepted as an actuality
  
11:09 if we are totally concerned with
the whole cultivation of man?
  
11:20 If we are, what shall we do?
 
11:45 If we have children
 
11:51 and we are concerned as parents
who are also educators,
  
11:57 not just parents and then
shove them off into a school,
  
12:03 but if the parents are concerned
 
12:05 and the professional educators
are concerned
  
12:15 with the whole development
of man,
  
12:20 how shall we set about it?
 
12:26 HT: I think the truth is that
 
12:31 we, the educators, are not always
concerned with the whole.
  
12:36 K: Obviously not.
 
12:37 HT: Because we have our
immediate responsibilities,
  
12:42 our own jobs,
our careers to look after,
  
12:44 and all the problems
that beset us.
  
12:48 K: Are you saying
 
12:50 that there is no such group
in the world?
  
12:57 There may be,
and which we don't know?
  
13:04 Now, with the whole of life
I mean, not only
  
13:12 to help the student to have a
technological job, knowledge,
  
13:18 but also concerned,
psychologically, inwardly,
  
13:27 how to face problems,
 
13:31 to understand
the whole question of relationship,
  
13:35 love, death, the whole of life.
 
13:40 Who is there
concerned like that?
  
13:44 BN: It's really very hard to teach
if you don't feel like this.
  
13:48 K: It's not only hard, but
are there such people?
  
14:04 And if we are such people,
what shall we do?
  
14:14 We have not only
to understand it ourselves,
  
14:20 perhaps beginning verbally,
intellectually,
  
14:26 and then making it
into an actuality in our lives,
  
14:29 but how will you
 
14:37 help the student
to come to this,
  
14:44 to the understanding
of the whole of life?
  
14:47 Because he comes to you
conditioned,
  
14:50 he is only concerned with a job,
 
14:55 with a career, passing exams.
 
14:59 If they don't want
to pass exams and jobs,
  
15:04 what will they do?
 
15:09 You follow?
 
15:13 What is our responsibility?
 
15:18 SS: I think one responsibility is
to ask some different questions
  
15:23 from the ones
that are normally asked.
  
15:27 K: We're asking each other
what's our responsibility?
  
15:31 SS: For instance one could ask
how that society comes about
  
15:38 which we see around us,
how does it operate.
  
15:43 K: How has that society
come about,
  
15:45 because human beings
have created it.
  
15:51 WS: That isn't obvious
to a lot of people.
  
15:53 Many people would say that society
has created a human being.
  
16:01 K: Society has conditioned
human beings.
  
16:06 Are you trying to say
society suddenly existed?
  
16:10 God created it?
 
16:14 Some fanciful deity
living in wherever he is
  
16:20 and suddenly says,
'There must be society'
  
16:23 and bang, there is society,
or man has created it?
  
16:27 WS: No, I am trying to say that
the conditioning of society
  
16:34 could create a human being
 
16:36 and many people say that,
if you changed that society,
  
16:40 then the human being
will change.
  
16:42 K: That has been tried by
the communists,
  
16:45 by the totalitarian people
of different colour,
  
16:49 change society,
change environment,
  
16:54 either through brutal means
or different ways.
  
16:58 But they haven't succeeded.
 
17:00 MM: Perhaps
the response would be,
  
17:02 people who went before
just didn't do it well enough,
  
17:05 and I'll do it better this time.
 
17:08 K: So, you say we'll have
such a government
  
17:12 who will be efficient to change
the outer circumstances,
  
17:19 society and all that,
 
17:21 and hoping thereby to create
a different human being, is that it?
  
17:27 I believe every kind of system
to change a human being
  
17:32 from outside has been tried.
 
17:37 BN: One has to start from the other
end, one has to care for the student.
  
17:42 K: I want to find out whether
you want to start from the outside,
  
17:46 outside in the sense
change the environment,
  
17:49 change the culture,
change the government,
  
17:51 change the whole way
of looking at life
  
17:55 from the outside
through pressure,
  
17:58 through cruel means or
pleasant means,
  
18:02 and then gradually bring about
a different human being.
  
18:06 Is that possible?
 
18:09 And I believe they have tried
every kind of system
  
18:14 from the outside,
 
18:16 the Greeks, the ancient Hindus,
 
18:23 the Romans
– historically it is so.
  
18:28 And in recent years
the communists in their way,
  
18:32 through totalitarianism,
 
18:34 have tried to force man
to be different.
  
18:37 They haven't succeeded.
 
18:40 They have suppressed man.
 
18:43 They have suppressed human beings
to conform to a pattern.
  
18:49 But there are always
the dissidents,
  
18:51 – you know the whole history
of all that.
  
18:54 So, that's what I want
to find out.
  
18:58 Are we trying to change
the human character,
  
19:03 the condition of man,
from the outside?
  
19:09 Which is called education
in a different way, right?
  
19:18 Or if it's not from the outside,
is it from inside?
  
19:26 Inside in the sense,
 
19:28 inside the skin, psychologically,
inwardly?
  
19:32 HT: But there has also been
a movement of late,
  
19:36 people have tried all kinds of things,
turned to gurus,
  
19:39 turned to psychiatrists.
 
19:45 K: Most of the gurus,
 
19:46 are they concerned
with the transformation of man?
  
19:53 MM: Well, people seem to believe
they are.
  
19:57 K: Are you sure?
 
19:59 HT: What do you mean,
by the transformation of man?
  
20:02 What do you mean when you say,
transformation of man?
  
20:07 K: To free him
from his conditioning,
  
20:11 from his problems,
from his tortures,
  
20:16 from his anxieties and despairs
and depressions and fears,
  
20:22 you know, all the suffering.
 
20:25 Have gurus tried this?
 
20:27 Or have they said,
 
20:29 follow this, you will achieve
something or other?
  
20:33 HT: They claim
that they can free you
  
20:35 from this kind of thing.
 
20:38 They say, come to me, follow me,
 
20:41 do what I say and I can remove
all your suffering.
  
20:44 K: That means accept authority.
 
20:49 You reject authority educationally,
and here you accept authority.
  
20:56 I don't know
if I am explaining myself.
  
20:58 SS: Yes, that happens.
 
21:02 But we ought to try and look
at what comes about
  
21:05 when you begin from
the other way on,
  
21:10 which is starting with the person
you have in front of you.
  
21:23 K: Can we cultivate the human mind
harmoniously?
  
21:29 WS: I'm not quite sure
 
21:31 when you say cultivate it
harmoniously.
  
21:34 K: What I mean by that is not only
jobs and careers and all that,
  
21:39 but also his mind,
the way he thinks,
  
21:45 his attitudes, all that.
 
21:51 Can the two streams go together,
 
22:00 the outer as well as the inner.
 
22:03 Or must they everlastingly
be kept apart?
  
22:14 Or is there such a thing as
the outer and the inner?
  
22:23 I don't know
if you are interested in this.
  
22:27 SS: Perhaps it's going a bit fast,
Krishnaji.
  
22:31 If we can see that the outer
is the passing exams,
  
22:34 and preparing for a career.
 
22:36 K: Career and living a life
of constant struggle.
  
22:42 SS: What relation does that have
 
22:49 to an education based on care,
affection,
  
22:54 psychological understanding, etc.,
the things we mentioned?
  
22:58 K: Can these two go together?
 
23:01 That's what I am asking.
 
23:03 Or, this division is artificial.
 
23:10 The outer and the inner.
 
23:18 Or there is no such thing
as division,
  
23:20 but it's a constant moving,
outer and inner?
  
23:27 I don't know if
I am making myself clear.
  
23:34 MM: I think a little more,
 
23:35 I'm not quite sure what
you're talking about.
  
23:40 K: We have divided life
as the outer and the inner.
  
23:46 The inner is more complex,
more difficult to understand,
  
23:53 and so we have given
much more emphasis to the outer.
  
24:00 The outer is physical security,
physical wellbeing,
  
24:06 I am not saying we shouldn't be.
 
24:09 Physical comforts, the whole
commercialism, production,
  
24:17 all that's going on in
the present world,
  
24:20 with their terror,
with their tortures,
  
24:21 with their wars, everything,
 
24:25 that's the outer.
 
24:27 And the inner is, beliefs, rituals,
gods, the saviours, the gurus,
  
24:42 the hope there will be some day
some kind of peace in one's life.
  
24:53 So we have these two.
 
24:56 HT: Is that part of the inner life
of a student?
  
25:02 K: No,
 
25:07 when the student comes to you
 
25:14 he is conditioned by his parents,
 
25:17 by the society,
the culture he has lived in,
  
25:20 and he comes to you
 
25:21 and he is career minded,
examinations, job. That's all.
  
25:28 It is only very rare
that a student comes who says,
  
25:34 'Sir, there is something more
than this,
  
25:36 please tell me what there is.'
 
25:39 Like the other day
the boy asked,
  
25:44 'All right, take it for granted
we must have a career,
  
25:49 but that's not the end
of everything.'
  
25:53 So are these two divisions
artificial, man made?
  
26:04 Because the one is very complex.
 
26:08 Apparently very complex,
put it that way.
  
26:11 The other is fairly
systematised.
  
26:19 One wants security,
physical security,
  
26:29 and so that has been the urge
right through history,
  
26:37 that there must be
physical security first.
  
26:43 Feed me, and we'll think
about God afterwards.
  
26:48 And there are the others
who say, think of God,
  
26:54 be with him
and everything will come right.
  
27:02 Believe in the saviour
and your life will be made easy.
  
27:09 So we have kept these two
in almost water tight compartments.
  
27:15 Would you agree to that,
would you say it is so?
  
27:21 HT: One of them we talk about
much more, and the other is...
  
27:26 K: ...put aside, rather shy making.
 
27:31 And rather,
 
27:34 one doesn't want
to expose oneself too much,
  
27:37 so you say,
please don't go into that,
  
27:39 let's concentrate on this.
 
27:43 SS: Which is what we've done,
and doing more and more really.
  
27:47 K: Yes. So I'm just asking,
 
27:50 is this division
emphasised by education,
  
27:56 as it is now,
 
27:59 sustained by
acquiring superficial knowledge,
  
28:06 and keeping the other
in the cupboard,
  
28:12 occasionally looking at it when
the crisis, emotional crisis arises
  
28:18 and you try to solve it
but that is hidden, secret.
  
28:23 Now I am asking,
are these two streams,
  
28:29 one very, very strong,
 
28:34 all men are concerned with
the one stream
  
28:37 and so have given an enormous
volume of water to it, energy,
  
28:44 and the other
practically neglected.
  
28:51 Even the most religious person
is concerned
  
28:56 not with the ending of fear,
sorrow, etc.,
  
29:02 but believing in God,
practising certain rituals
  
29:07 and hoping thereby
to achieve a state of mind,
  
29:12 or giving him
some kind of peace.
  
29:16 This is what is happening.
 
29:19 Now I am asking,
 
29:21 can these two streams
be brought together?
  
29:29 Surely that's the purpose
of education,
  
29:35 not to keep them apart.
 
29:38 HT: But why do you see it
as necessary
  
29:40 to bring these two streams
together?
  
29:42 K: Because that's also my life,
one's life.
  
29:47 The suffering, the agony,
the doubt,
  
29:52 the guilt, the hurts,
 
29:54 all that is part of my life,
one's life.
  
29:57 Why do you give importance
only to this?
  
30:02 HT: But the two
are not really separate.
  
30:05 K: The two are not separate but
we have made them separate.
  
30:11 SS: Doesn't that imply that
we need to concentrate
  
30:13 on the other one,
quite considerably?
  
30:16 K: No, one should be educated
in both fields.
  
30:24 SS: But the other one is already
so strong, you see.
  
30:27 It tends to dominate the other.
 
30:28 K: So, what will you do?
 
30:34 If the educators were concerned,
 
30:38 and felt the tremendous
responsibility
  
30:42 that the two
must be brought together.
  
30:49 I doubt if they want to, first,
 
30:52 if they do, then
what shall we do together?
  
30:57 As a group of teachers,
 
30:59 as a group of educators,
what shall we do?
  
31:04 That the cultivation of
the human mind
  
31:09 is not only
in the technological world
  
31:13 but also
in the so-called psychological
  
31:17 and, if one may use the word,
spiritual world also.
  
31:27 And probably the organised
religious people say,
  
31:31 that's what we are trying to do.
 
31:38 HT: That's what they say but...
 
31:39 K: No, they would say that.
 
31:42 Therefore one has to go into the
whole question of what is religion.
  
31:51 Are beliefs religion,
rituals religion,
  
31:55 the propaganda of
two thousand years, religion?
  
32:01 SS: That is what is understood
as religion normally.
  
32:07 I think you would have to contest
that concept of religion,
  
32:14 or that statement about religion.
 
32:16 K: You have to counter it,
 
32:17 you have to find out whether
it is accurate or false,
  
32:21 or invented by the priests.
 
32:23 SS: So you are introducing
another element
  
32:25 which is really some kind of
psychological inquiry...
  
32:32 K: Revolution.
 
32:33 SS: ...or discussion among people
as to what is the nature of things,
  
32:38 which is a different element.
 
32:39 K: Yes, what is the nature
of the psyche?
  
32:44 What is the nature of a total
human being, as it is now,
  
32:49 and whether that total human being
can be transformed, can be changed?
  
32:57 After all you have a student
who comes to you,
  
33:00 ignorant of mathematics,
history, or whatever it is,
  
33:03 and you educate him
so that he has a different mind
  
33:06 at the end of ten years.
 
33:10 He is either a mathematician,
engineer, or physicist and so on.
  
33:16 You take enormous trouble
to do that,
  
33:26 through schools, colleges,
universities,
  
33:29 that's what we are doing.
 
33:35 HT: Then we must take enormous
trouble too to do the other.
  
33:39 K: The other, now who will do it?
 
33:42 You see, who will undertake,
feel the responsibility,
  
33:47 say look, we must do this too.
 
33:54 HT: Well, as a teacher I see
the responsibility,
  
33:57 the necessity for doing that,
 
34:00 but I know my subject and
I can teach my subject
  
34:06 but I don't know the other
myself very well.
  
34:09 K: So what shall we do?
 
34:12 If you see the importance
of both,
  
34:27 how will you inquire into
the human existence as it is,
  
34:31 and whether it can be transformed,
whether it can be changed?
  
34:40 I should have thought
that is education,
  
34:45 not merely cram the student with
a lot of facts about this or that,
  
34:50 but also how to live
 
34:54 without problems,
without suffering,
  
34:56 without fear, without the agonies
they go through.
  
35:02 BN: So you need to start really
paying attention
  
35:05 to your actual life,
one day after another,
  
35:09 as well as going to classes.
 
35:11 K: So, as an educator,
can we do that?
  
35:18 If the educator
is not living that,
  
35:23 is not himself involved
in understanding his own life
  
35:28 and he gets up and talks
about the other,
  
35:31 and the students obviously
spot you as being rather shady.
  
35:46 I question it: why has man
denied the other side,
  
35:51 or neglected it, or vaguely be
concerned about it,
  
35:58 why?
 
36:01 MM: One problem seems to be that
 
36:04 we don't really know how to look
at something for ourselves.
  
36:08 I've learned mathematics,
 
36:09 somebody has always told me
how to do this or that,
  
36:11 and when
I have to look at something
  
36:15 and nobody is telling me
how to look, I'm a little lost.
  
36:18 K: Is that the problem?
 
36:20 I'm not quite sure
that's the problem.
  
36:24 SS: It's also where to look.
 
36:32 K: No, it's not that.
 
36:37 I'm asking,
why has he neglected this,
  
36:40 the other side of man,
the hidden side of man?
  
36:53 WS: Earning a living has become
tremendously important,
  
36:56 it seems the most important
thing.
  
36:58 K: That is security.
 
37:00 We'll call that security,
physical security.
  
37:08 And he is asking,
 
37:12 give me psychological security
and I will go after that.
  
37:19 Rather than, educate me to find
total security, psychologically
  
37:31 and then I'll accept it.
 
37:34 Is that it?
 
37:38 He's seeking physical security,
all human beings are,
  
37:44 in one form or another.
 
37:49 And if you assure man
that there is also security inwardly
  
37:57 then he might pay attention
to it.
  
38:01 So I'm asking,
is the whole pursuit of man
  
38:07 to be completely secure
in both areas?
  
38:20 WS: Yes,
I don't like to do something
  
38:22 unless I know
what's going to happen.
  
38:25 K: Yes, secure, certain.
 
38:29 Give assurity, a sense of
feeling safe, protected,
  
38:36 and I will pursue that.
 
38:38 They have done that,
haven't they?
  
38:42 Believe in Jesus, believe in
certain forms of religion
  
38:46 and you will be safe.
 
38:49 If you don't believe,
you will go to hell.
  
38:51 Now, of course, nobody believes
that kind of nonsense.
  
38:56 So that's what I am asking,
 
38:59 is man seeking security
in both areas?
  
39:07 HT: Not just physical security but
also security in relationships.
  
39:12 K: Yes, security in relationship
so that I'll never be disturbed,
  
39:21 not to be disturbed,
not to have fears,
  
39:25 completely safe.
 
39:29 In this field he is demanding it
– in the physical field –
  
39:35 In the other he is also
demanding it,
  
39:38 and so he has created
the churches,
  
39:41 the gods, the whole religious
structure,
  
39:49 with their fanciful,
romantic mysticism, all that.
  
40:00 Is that what man is seeking?
 
40:03 Therefore if you,
as an educator, say,
  
40:06 'I'll give you security there,
completely,
  
40:09 in your relationship
you will be safe,
  
40:14 you will have no
psychological problems,
  
40:17 you will have no fear,
no anxiety, no guilt,
  
40:21 no sense of being hurt,
 
40:24 you will understand death'
and so on, so on,
  
40:29 then he will follow that.
 
40:34 HT: Can we really do that
for them?
  
40:37 K: That's what I'm asking.
 
40:50 HT: Is it possible
to have complete security?
  
40:52 K: I think so.
 
41:01 WS: Then aren't you offering
me the same thing?
  
41:06 K: I am not, no.
 
41:11 First of all, I question
 
41:14 the whole urge,
structure of security.
  
41:21 Is there security in this field
 
41:24 – in the field of technology,
in the field of career,
  
41:27 in the field of having jobs
and so on –
  
41:30 is there security there?
 
41:35 HT: There's a kind of security but
it brings with it its own dangers.
  
41:40 K: Its own problems,
its own mess,
  
41:43 which is not security.
 
41:46 Security means
to be perfectly safe.
  
41:53 Perfectly protected,
not disturbed,
  
41:57 say, I have a job and nothing
is going to happen.
  
42:05 No wars, because the moment
there is war I am lost.
  
42:11 WS: Also nobody is going to take
my job from me.
  
42:13 K: But we want it there, and
we're not finding it there.
  
42:21 Governments change, inflation,
 
42:27 every form of dishonesty.
 
42:35 So I am asking, when we say
we want security,
  
42:42 is there such a thing at all?
 
42:49 As long as we call ourselves
Englishmen, Frenchmen,
  
42:55 keep it isolated,
 
42:58 keep ourselves isolated
as divisions,
  
43:02 and nations and so on, races,
 
43:04 we are not secure.
 
43:12 What do you say to that?
 
43:16 Because I want to be secure
in England as an Englishman,
  
43:20 if I am an Englishman,
or an Indian,
  
43:23 or a Japanese,
whatever it is,
  
43:25 I want to be secure in my job,
in my work,
  
43:29 physically.
 
43:33 SS: And the solutions that are sought
also tend to be
  
43:38 bigger but of a similar kind.
 
43:39 For instance,
like a European parliament,
  
43:43 or a European nation.
 
43:45 K: In the meantime,
when that comes into being,
  
43:48 in the meantime I go through
agony, fears, uncertainty.
  
43:59 There are millions of
unemployed.
  
44:08 SS: I'd like to get back
to the question of the teacher
  
44:12 in a school, meeting a student
who is the product of the society
  
44:19 but who is not aware
that he is
  
44:22 K: I have to help him
not to be a product of the society.
  
44:25 SS: Or show that he is.
 
44:26 K: He is, obviously.
 
44:28 SS: Yes, but he probably
doesn't see that.
  
44:30 He probably
doesn't realise that.
  
44:32 K: He doesn't. As an educator
it's my responsibility.
  
44:38 That he is the result of
his father, grandfather,
  
44:42 whole generations past,
 
44:45 with their particular form
of society
  
44:50 handed down through tradition.
 
44:56 SS: And also the present society
with its own violence, etc.
  
45:01 K: Yes, so
he comes conditioned
  
45:04 and the teacher
comes conditioned.
  
45:14 SS: So they're both conditioned.
 
45:16 K: Both conditioned.
 
45:18 At present, not realising
both are conditioned,
  
45:22 it's the blind
leading the blind.
  
45:26 SS: Well, if one realises
he is conditioned
  
45:28 he is only partly blind.
 
45:34 K: Partly,
but being partly blind isn't...
  
45:37 SS: It's not much good but it's
better than being totally blind.
  
45:42 K: Partly.
It's like saying partly sane.
  
45:46 SS: We are partly sane,
aren't we?
  
45:48 K: But partly, and therefore…
 
45:52 Being partly sane, the greater
insanity takes place.
  
45:59 Apart from all this,
what shall we do?
  
46:03 As educators,
what's our responsibility?
  
46:09 HT: We're saying that,
 
46:13 it seems that the main concern
of humanity is with security.
  
46:20 When the student comes,
his parents,
  
46:23 they're thinking of what he will do
in the future, security.
  
46:28 K: Yes, for them, the parent is
thinking security for them.
  
46:31 And the security is career.
 
46:34 HT: Yes, but then career turns out
not to be security,
  
46:39 because there is uncertainty,
there are all kinds of things.
  
46:42 K: For one job
there are a thousand people.
  
46:47 So I am questioning,
 
46:50 when man is seeking security
 
46:53 whether there is
such a thing at all.
  
47:00 Maybe temporarily you are secure
 
47:03 if you have a bank account,
if you have
  
47:06 a great piece of the earth,
perhaps you are secure.
  
47:11 But even then, there is always
encroachment, there are taxes...
  
47:19 BN: You raised the question
 
47:20 as to whether one might be
completely secure.
  
47:25 K: Yes.
 
47:27 BN: Could we look at that?
 
47:30 K: Look at it, sir.
What do you say?
  
47:35 HT: What makes us insecure?
 
47:39 K: Division.
 
47:42 Division of people into races,
classes, nationalities,
  
47:48 I am a Jew, you are an Arab.
 
47:55 This division.
 
47:58 HT: We seem to encourage
this division.
  
48:01 We encourage this division.
In schools there is competition.
  
48:05 K: Naturally,
 
48:09 because each person is concerned
with his own security
  
48:16 and that security is through
small groups, large groups,
  
48:23 identifying with one country
against another,
  
48:27 which eventually breeds wars.
 
48:33 We never say, look, we are
one human race, for God's sake
  
48:37 let's all work together and
create a different world.
  
48:45 BN: So trying to find one's own
security makes everyone insecure.
  
48:49 K: Obviously.
Look at what is happening.
  
48:54 The politician wants to be secure
in his position.
  
49:05 So, we are just asking,
as educators, what shall we do,
  
49:13 or what is our responsibility
when we see
  
49:19 how grotesque
it has all become.
  
49:23 It's like developing a right arm
and neglecting the left arm,
  
49:31 which is withering,
 
49:34 which is ultimately going to
destroy the whole human being.
  
49:40 So, if you see both arms
must be developed,
  
49:46 strengthened, and work together,
 
49:48 what shall we do?
 
49:51 Would you ask that question,
what shall we do,
  
49:56 if you saw the importance that
 
49:59 the inward as well as the outer
must move together?
  
50:09 SS: I would certainly bring some
deliberate attention to bear on it,
  
50:17 spend some time with it,
talk about it,
  
50:19 even understanding it
imperfectly myself
  
50:23 because of the crucial nature
of it.
  
50:29 K: Can you do that?
 
50:36 Will you in a class
give half of your time?
  
50:46 Half an hour for mathematics,
 
50:49 half an hour
talking over the other?
  
50:52 Discussing, having a dialogue,
 
50:56 pointing out the importance
of both?
  
51:03 HT: Or rather than
separating them out like that,
  
51:06 as you talk about
the mathematics
  
51:08 you're also looking at
your responses to it,
  
51:13 how the other
is moving at the same time.
  
51:21 K: No, I'm saying something
more.
  
51:23 Will you in your class,
 
51:26 or whatever you are doing
as an educator
  
51:29 give time to this?
 
51:32 WS: Isn't it rather artificial
though, to divide the class
  
51:36 half into the subject and
half into something else?
  
51:40 K: It may be artificial.
How will you do it?
  
51:41 Will you do it at lunch time?
 
51:44 WS: As Harsh suggested,
 
51:47 by the very working together
at a subject
  
51:51 you're also working together
with the relationship
  
51:54 of the student and you.
 
51:55 It is not just working
on a subject.
  
51:59 K: That means you have
established
  
52:01 a relationship with the student.
 
52:04 WS: Yes.
 
52:05 K: Have you a relationship
with the student?
  
52:09 Relationship means
being concerned
  
52:14 about his dress,
the way he walks, the way he talks,
  
52:17 the language he uses,
cultivating his taste,
  
52:22 manners, politeness,
the whole of it.
  
52:27 To help him to be free from fear
and so on, so on.
  
52:32 Are we doing this?
 
52:38 Which means the educator
must also be enquiring in himself.
  
52:49 Or is this all so vague and
uncertain and doubtful
  
52:57 when the educator himself is
conditioned to one way of life?
  
53:20 What would you do
if you had children of your own?
  
53:26 After all the students
are your children.
  
53:30 What will you do, actually?