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BR80DSS1.3 - What is desire and what is thinking?
Brockwood Park, UK - 15 June 1980
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.3



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s third discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1980.
0:25 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:31 Questioner: Sir, could we talk about desire and how it comes about?
0:39 K: You want to talk about that? If we talk about it, will you carefully follow it? Why do you want to talk about desire?
1:12 Q: Because I think it’s working within us in a subtle way or blatantly, most of the time.
1:27 K: What does desire mean to you? First of all - I’ll go into it carefully; you know, words aren’t the actualities. Right? Right? Is that clear? The word microphone isn’t the actual thing that you touch. Right? So the word is not the thing. Come and sit down here, sir. Is that...? So we must start from that. The word is not the thing. The word anger is not the actual feeling of anger. The word greed is not the response to a sensation; so we must be very clear on this: the word is not the thing. We have to go... you want to find out what is desire, how it arises, what is the cause of it and the consequences of it; and also you want to know perhaps from that: what is the relationship between desire and thought. Right? So these are our two problems: What is desire, how it arises and the consequences of it; and also what is thought, how it arises and the consequences of it, where it leads and so on? Right? And also, what is the relationship between the two, between desire and thought? What is desire? Please, let’s think about it together. Not I think and then I tell you, which then won’t be your actual discovery; but if we could go into it together, investigate into the whole movement of desire together. Not that I go into it and you listen and then say, ‘Yes, I accept that…’ Then it becomes a theory, an idea, nothing actual; but could we together investigate into this question: What is desire; what is thought; what is the relationship between the two? Right? Do you want to be serious this morning? (Laughs) Let’s first examine not desire but thought. We went into it the other day a little bit but if we may, we’ll go into it again. What is thought; what is thinking; and what is the origin, the beginning of it? As we said the other day too, what has a cause has also an end. Right? Do you understand? If I have a toothache it has a cause and it can be removed; so as well as… physically as well psychologically, what has a cause can end. This clear? That’s a law; it’s inevitable; it is like that, but we generally don’t see this. So we are going to investigate into the cause of desire, the beginning of desire and the beginning of thought, what is the cause of... causation of both and the relationship of both to each other. What is thinking? What do you think it is? Are you thinking now? Hm? What do you mean by that? I am making a statement; I am saying something; you listen, if you care to; you listen and that sets into motion the activity of thinking. Right? I say it’s a rainy, cloudy, dull weather. You may hear it but what I am saying may contradict the actuality. It may not be raining, it may be a lovely day so you... in communication with each other we set this motion of thinking together. Right? Thinking together, not I think and you listen or you think and I listen but together we are communicating, talking over together about what is thinking. What do you think is thinking? Don’t guess about it; don’t repeat what I have said. Then you are merely repeating like a parrot; that’s not worth it. So you have to find out for yourself what is thinking; why humanity all over the world has given such extraordinary importance to thought? Why all religions, all philosophies, all scientific investigation is the movement of thought? The division between the Hindu and Muslim, the Arab and the Jew, the German, the French, the... all that is the movement of thought. Right? Clear? And also we are asking why man has given such importance to thought; he places thought far more important than anything else. Why? So we are going to find out together what is the meaning of thinking? Either one thinks clearly, objectively, rationally, or you think irrationally, illogically and pursue that illogical, irrationality direction, which leads to all kinds of conflict, illusions and all that. Or you think very clearly, objectively, without the entanglement of emotions involved in it, or sentiment and all that. So now either we think together rationally or irrationally. That is, unless we are clear what is thinking, our thinking may be irrational or may be logical, rational, and not… and clever. So we must be very clear on this point whether we are thinking emotionally; that is, emotions colour our thinking. You have followed this? So when it colours thinking, it loses objectivity. Right? When I think I am a Hindu or a Jew or a German or something or other, Catholic or other kinds of denominational attachment, what happens? My emotions prevent my thinking rationally because I am anchored in some hope, in some belief, in some sensation and I hold on to that and then think from that. You’re following all this? Ah? It interests you? It interests you? Do tell me.
13:34 Q: Yes.
13:35 K: Not a feeble voice, ‘Yes’. (Laughter)
13:41 K: (Laughs) Because that’s what you are doing. You spend all day and... perhaps part of the night thinking. Even when you are asleep the brain is active, dreaming and so on. We won’t go into that for the moment. So you are… you spend your life thinking; so one must be very clear in our investigation that we are not attached to any form of conclusion - right? - any form of emotional response to thinking. Right? Right? Following this? So be clear on this that you are... when we are investigating into a human condition, that investigation becomes distorted, leads to illusion if you are… if it is shaped by emotions, sentiment, romantic imaginations and so on. Right? So what is thinking?
15:16 Q: If we are full of all these emotions and things, are we capable of thinking rationally?
15:34 K: Oh yes, you are, aren’t you? I am full of emotions or my thinking is motivated, if I can use that word, because I believe in some fantastic, imaginary, illusionary idea. Hm? My thinking is shaped by that. I believe - and fortunately I don’t - I believe, suppose I believe in this idea of somebody saving me - as it exists in the Christian world - and I like that idea, I ... all the encouragement of all the religious people push me towards it and it is an emotional, irrational thinking. No? If I am a Muslim, Islamic person, I think the Prophet is the only real person, real guru (laughs). The rest I say, well, is all... that’s irrational thinking; or if I believe in, as they do in India, Krishna or whatever... - (inaudible) – hm? (Laughter)
17:13 K: ...I also, then my emotions colour my thinking and so it becomes distorted, irrational.
17:23 Scott Forbes: Sir, we can see irrational thinking that we don’t have but irrational thinking that we do have is much more difficult to see.
17:34 K: I don’t quite follow that. Irrational...?
17:36 SF: Well, if I’m not a Christian, it’s very easy for me to see that thinking that someone who died two thousand years ago is going to save me, it’s quite easy to see it’s irrational; but if I am a Christian and I’m caught in that thinking, then it’s very difficult to see (inaudible).
17:57 K: Then one has to be aware of our conditioning. You understand? If my conditioning is Buddhist and I believe the Buddha to be my refuge, then my thinking of which… my thinking will be coloured by it but I’m unaware of it. Right? Now, can I become aware that I am conditioned by two thousand five hundred years and be free of that to investigate what is thinking? You understand what I’m saying? Can we go on? But that’s... you are investigating. Right? Do you want to go out too? No? All right. You can. (Laughter)
19:18 K: All right. So let us be clear that I cannot think clearly if I am unaware of my conditioning as a Hindu, Buddhist, as a scientist, as a philosopher, as a person who believes in something or other. I cannot investigate into what is thinking. The scientist may investigate what is thinking on the... objectively, through taking cases but they never investigate what is thinking in themselves; they don’t experiment with themselves. I wonder if I’m making this clear. I want to know what is thinking. I’m a scientist, suppose I’m one; I’ve spent my life in investigating astrophysics. You know what astrophysics are? Heavens. Hm? And I’ve spent years and years and years and years and I’ve never given thought, given... to the investigation of thinking, so I am conditioned as an astrophysicist; I’m also conditioned as a Catholic; also conditioned as an American; also conditioned by my education, by my environment, conditioned by my wife; and without investigating this conditioning I begin to investigate thinking, what is thinking. I can do that but it will be a verbal, non-clarifying thinking. Right? Is this… are we proceeding together? Hm? Right? So if you are wanting… if you are desirous or wanting to find out what is thinking, first see that you are not caught emotionally - right? - that you are not conditioned by your particular culture, religion and so on and so on. There must be freedom to look. Right? If you have no freedom to look, how can you investigate? Right? So let’s proceed. What is thinking? Answer me, sir; go on. If you had no experience at all of any kind, would you be capable of thinking? Experience being reaction to any challenge. You are following all this? I challenge you: what is thinking? How do you respond to that challenge? What’s your immediate response to it? Go on; you will find out very quickly now; go. I have challenged you; I’ve asked you; the examination paper says (laughs), either tomorrow or yesterday, says: answer this question. No book, no teacher or educator has asked you this question. Right? Now one of... this person sitting here asks you: what is thinking? What do you say immediately? You’re allowed two minutes (laughs). (Laughter)
25:02 Q: (Inaudible) aware of thinking as words; I mean in one’s mind, as pictures, as remembering things (inaudible).
25:07 K: No. I’m asking you, sir: what is thinking?
25:10 Q: A process of memory?
25:16 K: Don’t... because you heard me say that the other day? (Laughter)
25:26 Q: No.
25:27 K: No, you…because unless you find out for yourself, it will be have no meaning. You follow? Look, I ask you what is thinking. Does it set you thinking? Ah?
25:50 Q: Yes.
25:51 Q: (Inaudible).
25:52 K: Now, what is that thinking?
25:53 Q: I try to remember what I do usually when I think. Like various associations and remembering... I don’t know.
26:04 K: When I ask you what is thinking, what is your thought doing?
26:15 Q: It’s trying to make sense of what you said from what we know before.
26:28 K: Is your thought asking... or looking into books or ask… finding out whether you can remember what somebody has said about thinking; or you are aware that you are thinking and don’t know the answer? Is that it? You… So how will you find out? I will tell you all about it but first set the machinery going (laughs).
27:31 Stephen Smith: It’s a means of measuring, among other things.
27:39 K: That is, it’s a means of measuring. What do you mean by measuring?
27:46 SS: Well, seeing the relationship between… say between two people, one is shorter than another, one is taller, one is… this kind of thing.
28:01 K: That is thinking.
28:02 SS: That’s thinking.
28:03 K: So is thinking measurement?
28:04 SS: It seems to be.
28:08 Q: But how about thinking, like when you’re trying to find out what is thinking; then there’s something different.
28:16 K: Can you observe your thinking as though you can look at it? When you look your… when you look into a mirror, the reflection of your face, the reflection is not you. Right? So, but you look at that. Can you do the same?
28:38 Q: You can’t use your senses in the same way.
28:43 K: What?
28:44 Q: You cannot use your senses as you do when you look in the mirror.
28:52 K: No.
28:53 Q: That’s why (inaudible).
28:54 K: No. Just listen. I’m asking you something different. I’m asking you: as you look in the mirror, that which is shown in the mirror is not actual you. Right? So equally, can you look as though it was the… on the mirror, thinking. You understand what I’m saying? I see you’re not used to this.
29:17 SF: What we seem to see is the contents of the thought but not really the activity of thinking itself. If I’m thinking about a car, I can see that the car is what I’m thinking about but not the (inaudible).
29:39 K: So you’re only thinking… thinking arises, you are saying, in relation to an object.
29:44 SF: It seems to.
29:51 K: Ah? But I am not asking that. I’m asking: What is thinking itself; not in relation to an object? You’re going…I’m going to… we’re going to go slowly. It doesn’t matter if you get bored (laughs). Push it slowly, step by step.
30:15 Q: Well, thinking (inaudible)...
30:16 K: You see, I can think about the car. That’s not what I asked. I asked: What is thinking itself per se, in itself?
30:30 Q: It’s a movement within one’s mind.
30:36 K: It’s a movement within one’s mind. What is that movement?
30:41 Q: One notices it as a movement by words one after the other, by...
30:50 K: So, you are saying: thinking is the movement of words...?
30:59 Q: Well, not (inaudible).
31:00 K: Movement of images?
31:03 Q: Yes.
31:05 K: Movement of pictures, from one object to another?
31:11 Q: Yes, but that’s how it appears but...
31:14 K: That is association. Hm? The rose, the thorn, the perfume - I am just taking that as an example. Right? That’s association, isn’t it? So you are saying, are you, that thinking is the movement of association?
31:38 Q: Well, that’s certainly some of it.
31:45 K: What?
31:48 Q: That’s some of thinking (inaudible).
31:54 K: That’s one aspect; that’s one way of thinking. Now, is there a thinking without word, without picture?
31:59 Q: There is thinking (inaudible)…
32:01 K: Without a symbol?
32:03 Q: Yes. One’s daily life, one is acting and one is thinking, although one is not aware of this, there’s what one calls, sort of, subconscious thinking that shows through in one’s actions, in one’s life. It’s not thinking that when you’re quietly sitting down or in bed that you’re hearing the mind going through (inaudible)...
32:24 K: I understand, sir, but you are not answering my question. I said: What is thinking? Not the object, not the picture, not the word, but the movement of thinking. You understand? How it arises? Where is its cause?
32:55 Shakunthala Narayan: It seems that thinking expresses itself in words and symbols and images but I think there must be something that goes before...
33:06 K: I’m doing that… we are doing that now.
33:09 Raman Patel: Isn’t it when we meet a challenge?
33:13 K: What?
33:14 RP: When we come across a challenge, it sets off a thinking process...
33:25 K: Challenge. Now, I’m challenging you.
33:28 Q: Is it when mine, the me, responding to a stimulus?
33:41 K: You are saying: the me responds to the challenge. Now what is the me?
33:45 Q: Me is the result of my past.
33:57 K: The past. The me is the past - hm? - the me is my face; the me is my body; the me is my ideas, are my ideas, my beliefs. Hm? Care... I’m leading up; follow this carefully. My beliefs, my nationalities, my attachments, anger and so on. Right? Right? All that is me. Hm? Which is what? The remembrance of things past. Right? The remembrance. Now, what does ‘remembrance’ mean? (Laughs) Go on; you are all very clever people, passing exams. I remember meeting you yesterday - go slowly into this; you will find out immediately - I remember meeting you yesterday. What does that mean ‘remember’?
35:21 Q: It means I have stored the past experience of...
35:28 K: Look at it carefully before you answer. I met you yesterday and I say I remember you. What does that mean? Go on, sir; it’s simple.
35:44 Q: Thinking.
35:45 K: Ah?
35:46 Q: It was thinking again.
35:49 K: What does that mean, sir? Go on. Lord, you are...
35:53 RP: That you are so and so kind of a person.
35:58 K: I met you yesterday; that has left a mark - right? - on my brain. No? Right? You are introduced to me and you remember your name; your name, your appearance, your whole general outlook has been imprinted on the brain - hm? - which is, the experience of meeting you yesterday is registered; then today I remember you because of this imprint on the brain. Right? What does that mean?
37:08 Q: Well, you remember the image (inaudible).
37:14 K: What does that mean? Yes. The image, the appearance, the clothes, the behaviour, all that has being imprinted, registered, which becomes the knowledge of meeting you yesterday. Right? So… and the reaction of that knowledge is: I remember you. Right? You are following this? So, the beginning of thinking is: meeting you yesterday, the registration of that, the imprint of that as what has happened, which has become the knowledge and from that knowledge and experience, memory and thinking. Are you following this or is this too much? Think it out very carefully. It may not… you may not have met me yesterday; you might have met me ten years ago or a year ago. That meeting has registered; whether you remember it or not, it is there - right? - consciously or unconsciously. So every experience, whether it’s trivial or very serious, important or unimportant is registered, imprinted on the brain, which becomes the knowledge of the past and that knowledge, experience becomes the memory. You’re following this? Memory, I remember meeting you. Then from that, thinking begins. Ah? Is this clear? So you can predict, you can say that where there is no experience, no knowledge, no memory, that person is not thinking; he’s in a state of amnesia. Right? You understand this? So that is the beginning of thinking. The acquiring knowledge as a carpenter, as a surgeon, experiencing, operating, cutting a piece of wood to make a marvellous cask or a door or bureau, whatever it is; I have acquired knowledge, mind has acquired knowledge, the brain has, and it uses that knowledge skilfully. Right? This is the whole process of thinking. Now, next step - careful follow it; this is… You see this first?
41:26 Q: Mmhm.
41:29 K: Be clear on this, because that’s what you are doing. You study for a year mathematics, history, geography or whatever you study for two years, then there is the examination, unfortunately, and you get... all the rest of it, and you have to answer the questions put to you, which is what? You have acquired knowledge about physics… biology or whatever it is and you write it down; which is, you have learnt and the question is asked, it responds, the memory… the knowledge responds and you write it down. That is the whole movement of thinking. Right? Hm? Next step; which is: can knowledge be ever complete? Answer the question. Go on. Hm?
43:04 Q: No.
43:07 K: No. Can’t; impossible. The astrophysicists may think they know certain amount -hm? - but they can’t know the whole universe. Right? A scientist, a physicist examining matter and investigating day after day, but his knowledge is always limited. Right? Other scientists come and add to it and so on and on and on and on but it can never be complete. Right? Right? Be clear on this too. Don’t be deceived by it. Knowledge can never be complete. Hm? Whether you are an artist, a pianist, a scientist, a carpenter, a surgeon, a philosopher and so on, his... their knowledge is always limited. Bien? So, follow the next step, which is: as knowledge is limited, your thinking must be limited. Right?
44:46 Mary Zimbalist: Sir, what about something like mathematics? Can that be known... can that not be known totally?
44:59 K: Mathematics.
45:00 MZ: (Inaudible) mathematics.
45:01 K: Mathematics is order. Right?
45:03 MZ: But it’s knowledge too.
45:06 K: What?
45:08 MZ: Is it not knowledge also?
45:11 K: Yes; yes. So, you’re asking something... I don’t want to go into it; you’re asking: is knowledge... is mathematics... can ever…can it ever be complete? You follow? Some of you are mathematicians, aren’t you, here? Mathematics means order, doesn’t it? Hm? Two and two make four. You can’t make it five. And so... - I won’t go... there is order which is not put together by thought. I... sorry, I mustn’t enter into this. Now, let’s go back. So knowledge can never be complete; therefore knowledge is always within shadow of ignorance. Right? When a priest comes along and says something most definite, he is speaking from knowledge - right? - which is his conditioning; therefore his thinking is limited. Right? So thinking comes from knowledge... from experience, knowledge, stored up in the brain as memory and when that memory is challenged, it’s response is to think. Right? Bien? Is this understood?
47:25 Q: Is the thinking we’re doing right now also (inaudible)...
47:30 K: Are you? Are you?
47:33 Q: ...coming from knowledge?
47:36 K: What are you doing now? Are you listening, or thinking and listening? I’m asking… I’m challenging you. Are you thinking and listening, or are you listening to what is being said - hm? - and so what takes place? I want to… I want… I won’t tell you; I want you to see this. Now, just a minute. I’m asking you, if I may, politely, all the rest of it, I’m asking you, are you listening to what I have said? Memory, experience, knowledge; as a carpenter, stored up in the brain; memory of how to use various tools and acting, doing. Right? I make that statement; are you listening to it, or are you thinking, accepting or denying (inaudible) questioning. You follow? What are you doing? Come on, sirs. If you are listening, really listening - hm? - you can’t think, because your whole attention is given to listening. Right? But if you are inattentive, that is, (laughs) half-listening and half-thinking - hm? then you are not listening or thinking. I wonder if you follow this.
50:18 Wendy Agnew: I think some of the difficulty is that when you listen to a piece of music, that seems obvious about listening, but usually how we deal with questions is that you think about questions, so if you put a question, it seems a difficult thing to listen to a question without examining the question.
50:38 K: Yes. I am asking you now: are you listening? Are you listening to what has been said? Have you been listening? When you are listening to what is being said, your whole attention is there, isn’t it? You are listening to the sound, the sound which the word awaken and so on and so on; you’re listening to that. Then you can say: Let’s examine.
51:18 Q: But aren’t you using memory to understand those words you’re saying?
51:22 K: Yes, of course; of course; but I am just saying: First I listen -hm? - personally, I listen attentively what you have to say, then we both face the problem, whatever it is; then we both think about it; but I have learnt the art of... first of listening.
52:00 MZ: But sir, the sound has no meaning unless thought interprets the sound (inaudible)...
52:06 K: Ah ha, ha; no; I understand all that. All right, let’s go into it (laughs). I say to you something very complex - hm? - I put it into words carefully and I say something complex. That - this is what I’m going to say - that you are totally, completely responsible for yourself. You… nobody is responsible for you; neither your environment, nor your guru; nobody. You are responsible for your thinking, for your act, for your being... completely responsible. Right? I have stated that. You heard the meaning of the word responsibility, and so on but first you hear it, don’t you? When you hear it, are you paying complete attention, or... trying to find out what he means by all that? You understand what I’m talking? Come on, sirs. Mankind has depended, relied on others for his moral behaviour, for his so-called salvation, for his health, everything... If there is trouble he goes off to a psychologist, psychotherapist; if there is trouble and so on and so on; so he is entirely depending on others. Here comes along a man and says... you are responsible entirely for yourself. Which is not selfishness. Right? Responsible how you behave, how you act, how you think; if you are frightened, you are responsible to be free of it and so on and so on; completely responsible. Now, you have heard the meaning; you know the meaning of those words. What is your first act in... when the statement is being made? Your first act is obviously to listen. Then you interpret. Right? But I’m talking of the first second of listening.
55:40 Q: But it’s very quick.
55:44 K: Of course it’s very quick, because the brain immediately begins to interpret, says, ‘Is this is right, is this wrong; is this so, what does he mean by completely being responsible; how can I be completely responsible for... when I depend on the postman?’
56:09 Q: (Inaudible) first you have to understand what responsible (inaudible). I mean, if I speak the language well and do not understand (inaudible)...
56:16 K: Wait; well go… we’ll understand it; so we begin to explain the meaning of that word ‘totally responsible’. But I am asking... No you are missing my point. The first second, you listen? Right? In that second there is no thinking. A second later you begin. Have you discovered something in that? Come on. Have you discovered this fact of you are completely attentive for a second in listening, then second afterwards begins the whole... business? Now, what happens in that second? There is the intensity of listening. Hm? Then thought begins. So thought may be inattention. I won’t go into this. This is too difficult; I won’t go into it. Because thought, as we said, is based on knowledge, therefore it’s always incomplete, limited; and all our civilization is based on thought - technologically, morally, ethically, religiously, nationally - is based on thought, so thought can never find out what is... that which is beyond itself. This is all too much; I won’t go into that. So the next step is… - we have understood this? Now, let’s go into the question of desire. What is desire for you? You understand what we are saying? It’s most dangerous - you understand? - all the contents of the churches, temples, mosque are based on thought and all the worship that goes on is based on thought, therefore there is no... I won’t go... Right? You have understood it?
59:49 SF: Krishnaji, could we just come back for a minute. When there is this attention and then thought comes in, why does thought come in? (Inaudible)...
1:00:05 K: Because that is it’s... That is the activity of the brain that has been accustomed to constantly think.
1:00:12 SF: It’s just a (inaudible) response?
1:00:15 K: It’s a habit. It’s a tremendous habit of million years; because it has found in that process security and so on. I...
1:00:29 SS: But doesn’t the act of comprehension itself depend, to a certain extent, on memory, depend on thinking, so (inaudible)…
1:00:33 K: Which - comprehension?
1:00:35 SS: Yes, the comprehension…
1:00:38 K: Does it? Does it?
1:00:40 SS: Well, to a degree, it must because if you’re saying what you’re saying in Chinese...
1:00:42 K: Yes, I understand that (inaudible) but I want to know does understanding, comprehension depend on thought?
1:01:01 Q: But you have to recognize that what you are saying is true.
1:01:09 K: Of course; of course.
1:01:11 Q: Doesn’t that happen by memory (inaudible)?
1:01:13 K: Yes.
1:01:14 Q: Is it, sir, that…
1:01:16 K: Obviously; go on.
1:01:18 Q: So there is thought in understanding.
1:01:22 K: Now, wait a minute. You say something like, ‘You must be totally responsible for yourself,’ or any other statement; and what happens? You make that statement; I begin to rationalize it, I begin to think about it, I begin to examine it... analyze, examine, investigate. Right? Then I say I have understood what you have said. Right? Now I question whether that is understanding. Have you followed this? Or understanding is a state of mind in which it comprehends immediately.
1:02:31 Q: To what comprehends?
1:02:35 K: Ah?
1:02:36 Q: What is that comprehends?
1:02:37 K: Not what it… not what is it that comprehends. It comprehends the meaning and the action of that statement.
1:02:48 MZ: But what happens in the brain, sir? Because the words of the statement instantly conjure up concepts.
1:02:56 K: Of course; of course. That’s why I said... – now, just a minute - that’s why I said if I listen without interpretation, without creating the images which words make and so on and so on, I listen to that statement. In that... if I don’t comprehend immediately, the other thing goes...
1:03:21 MZ: But if one does comprehend immediately, what is happening?
1:03:24 K: Oh, yes. He said so.
1:03:26 MZ: What is happening?
1:03:27 K: That is, I comprehend the meaning of the word, what you are saying. I understand, intellectually and perhaps even emotionally, I understand what you are saying.
1:03:40 MZ: But how does that… how is that not a speeded-up process of the other thing, the ordinary thinking but much quicker, in a moment? What is the difference?
1:03:51 K: There, there you are exercising thought.
1:03:54 MZ: But what are you exercising in (inaudible)?
1:03:59 K: You are not exercising thought.
1:04:01 MZ:(Inaudible).
1:04:02 K: That’s what I’m saying. In that second when you are listening, there is no movement of thought. If that... when that second is completely immovable, there is complete understanding of something. You try it; you’ll... Test it out; don’t accept my word.
1:04:28 SF: Are you saying, sir, that in that second there is not a movement of anything?
1:04:39 K: That’s right. Because you are... You follow? So, now we’ll come back. Leave that. Should we stop?
1:04:52 Q: No.
1:04:54 Q: No. (Laughter)
1:04:57 K: It’s one o’clock. Then let’s go into this: What is desire? Specially when we are very young, we have innumerable desires. I want to be an engineer, I want to be (laughs) this; I want to be expert in physics; I want to be pilot. I’ve got so many things I want to be: a writer, a painter; probably not a teacher (laughs). Teacher, sir, is the greatest thing. Well, never mind that. So, what is desire? You answer me. Go on, Daphne. What do you mean by desire? Go on, sir.
1:06:00 Q: To want something.
1:06:02 K: That is, you want something; the lack of something. Hm? I lack food; I lack that particular kind of trouser; I lack knowledge; so what I miss, what I lack, what I want - hm? – it may be a toy, it may be a book, it may be knowledge, it may be heaven, it may be so many things. Right? Now, what is this want, this lack? From where does this sense of lacking come, missing, wanting? Now, just a minute; you experiment with this. I have asked you a question, which is, I say to you: From where does this lack, want, spring?
1:07:21 Q: From knowledge.
1:07:23 K: Ah, wait... (Laughter)
1:07:27 K: You… I am just asking you something; please listen for a second, sir. I said... he said just now what is desire. He said: I want. And to that I added ‘lack’; and I went on to explain; so the question is - please listen - what is the meaning of this ‘want’? From where does this spring, this ‘wanting’? You heard that question? You heard it, or are you translating immediately into, ‘I want my car; I want this or that’? You follow what I’m saying? Oh, come on, sir. Do you listen, without interpretation, without saying...? Hm? But just listen. What happens when you so listen without any movement of thought? You’re not... you don’t play the game. The ball is in your court; you don’t play...
1:08:52 Q: It seems a bit confusing, Krishnaji, because you’re saying not to just let you do all the thinking but that we are also to try and look out what you’re saying also.
1:09:04 K: Yes, sir, but I said... I asked: From where does this wanting, saying, ‘I want; I lack’ come… take place? It’s one o’clock. I want food because my tummy says I’m hungry - I don’t but... hm? - so there is that. Right? Follow this step by step carefully. What is next? I see you are tall, healthy, vigorous, clever, and I want that. I see you ride in good car and I want a car. I see the Prime Minister, the big people having enormous power and I say to myself, by Jove, I want that. Hm? So what does all that mean? Go on, sir; go on. Don’t sit there. I’m asking you. What does it mean when I see somebody has enormous power over people, over... - you know? - like a tyrant; enormous power, to destroy people, to make war, to buy, to sell, to order anything and I say, by Jove, I want that; I’d like to have that. I’d like to have such power. Or being poor, I see a rich man go by, I want to be... So what is this craving?
1:11:26 SS: One factor, obviously, is comparison.
1:11:34 K: Comparison. Now, what do I mean by comparing? Why do I compare? You are doing this all the time. Right? Why do you compare? You look so nice, with a straight nose and I wish I had a straight nose (laughs). Why? Why do I always… it begins at childhood - hm? Right? - comparing you with your brother, you with your mother, whatever it is. And at school comparing, giving you greater marks - you follow? - right through life you are comparing, comparing, comparing. Why?
1:12:36 Q: Because you want to be better.
1:12:40 K: Ah?
1:12:41 Q: You want to be better than you are.
1:12:44 K: So, you say better. The word better - what do you mean by that? What you are, and you want to be better; which means what?
1:12:54 Q: Than the other person.
1:12:57 K: What?
1:12:59 Q: You want to better than the other person.
1:13:01 K: What does that mean? I want to be better than you in getting more money, in becoming more clever. What does that mean, ‘the better’? That the word better is comparison, isn’t it? What have I done?
1:13:30 Q: Compared.
1:13:32 K: Yes, darling (laughs), I have compared. What is the result of that? I compare you to him – hm? - I say be like him. What has happened to you? You are not important. He’s important. Right? Be like him. It doesn’t matter what you are. You follow this? Yes, I know. You’re not paying attention, some of you; you’re tired. When the mother compares her son to her brother, what is happened to the son and the brother, A and B? B is compared with A. Right? What happens to B? Go on, sir. What’s the matter with you? If I’m always comparing you with somebody better than you, what has happened to you?
1:14:54 RP: Completely neglected.
1:14:55 K: You are not important; the other person is important. For God’s sake, what’s the matter with you all. Right? So, what takes place? So the better is the enemy of the good, as the French say. You understand? No, you... Now… When should you compare? If I compare myself with you, who are clever, bright, intelligent, active, all the rest of it, I am always in conflict with you, am I not? I want to surpass you; I want to be better than you; I want to compete with you. So what happens?
1:16:08 Q: It creates division.
1:16:10 K: There’s conflict between us. Come on, sir, what’s the...? So can you live without comparison? Of course you can. That is, I say to you... I am comparing myself with you; by comparing myself with you, you being clever, intelligent, I have made myself dull, haven’t I? Right? Suppose, if I don’t compare myself with you, what happens to me? Am I dull? I may be something else. You’re following all this? So, is wanting, lacking, the... because we are accustomed, conditioned, trained to compare? Think it out, sir; go… don’t go to sleep; go into it. And if you don’t compare, have you ever lived a day or a week or... any time without having measurement? Measurement means is comparison. You understand? The Greeks, the ancient Greeks… the Greeks of that period influenced the whole West. Right? To them measurement was the most important thing. Their logic, their philosophy, their ideals are all measurements and they influenced the whole of the West. And if you have no measurement you cannot have technology. Right? You are following? Hm? So you have… so thought is part of this measurement and so thought has become extraordinarily important in the West, and also in the East, but I’m just… You follow all this? So why do you compare? When you go to a museum and see several pictures, are you looking at the picture or who painted it and comparing one painter against the other painter and say, ‘Yes, I prefer that painter’? Is your appreciation of the picture dictated by measurement, comparing Picasso to somebody else? So if you want to understand something, you look at that and not compare. Come on, sir; what’s the matter. Right? Now, will you stop comparing, because that breeds conflict, arrogance, competition - right? - and therefore constant struggle; and realizing that, will you stop comparing? No. Because to end it is intelligence. Right? To carry on with it is stupidity. So, he said, ‘I want; I lack; I lack food,’ - that’s normal - right? - that’s healthy; I lack fresh air; I want fresh air, I want exercise. You follow? Go on, next step. I want to be famous, which is what? - comparison. Hm? Because I see on television, in newspaper, people talking about that person or that woman and I would want to be like that, or better. Right? What makes me there…? Physically, I need certain things. I need them because I want them: clothes, shelter, food; but what makes me say I want to be famous? To be famous brings me wealth, position, people are talking about me and I feel full of pride - hm? Right? - that pleases me. And if I don’t, I get depressed, see I am… this is too bad and I mope for the rest of my life; I’m unhappy; all that follows. See what’s happened: physically I need; psychologically, inwardly, I want to be famous, and I may not have the talent; and besides, why do I want to be famous? What? To be famous in this rotten world? Which means I am also... also be fairly rotten. No, you are laughing. Watch it, sir; watch it in yourself.
1:24:10 Q: You want attention.
1:24:12 K: Yes, yes, you want attention; when you are young and a girl or a boy you want attention because then you feel happy, you feel flattered, you feel sexual, you feel all that thing. Why should the...? No, I won’t enter in that. Why should you… why do you want attention? It’s time. We haven’t come to the point of desire. You see, a mind that is wanting, wanting, wanting - what happens to such a mind? You understand what I’m saying? I want money, I want food, I want clothes, I want… I need certain food - all right; I want to be famous; I must be best dressed person; I want to be this, I want to be… what happens to such a mind?
1:25:30 Q: It gets stuck in a rut of wanting.
1:25:36 K: Go on, sir, investigate it a little. We must stop. We investigate it a little.
1:25:43 Q: Is it something to do with achieving perfection?
1:25:53 K: Oh, no. What is perfection?
1:25:57 Q: No, but the desire to have perfection of, ‘I want to be the greatest. I want…’
1:26:03 K: Is perfection - if it exists - is perfection born out of want? No. This is too difficult, leave it alone. No, I’m just…we’ll have to stop. Just ask... we haven’t…. we’ll talk about desire another time but just listen to my question and find out. Why do you want, except from physical necessities, why do you want? Why this craving?
1:26:37 Q: It makes you more secure the more you have.
1:26:47 K: Hm?
1:26:48 Q: The more you have, the more you feel secure.
1:26:53 K: Do you? The more you want, the more... the greater the security. Is that so? I should have thought that is insecure (laughs). Find out, sirs, lady... find out what is it you want and see if it’s worthwhile, it has any meaning; and what happens to your mind that’s always craving, craving, craving?
1:27:38 Q: It’s never satisfied.
1:27:42 K: Which means what? It’s never satisfied and therefore it’s always unhappy. discontented. To such a…what is taking place in the mind?
1:27:59 Q: It’s a mind that’s not at peace.
1:28:13 K: Yes, I know; that’s discontented, unhappy; but much more than that; go into it, sir; what happens? I’m always wanting and I’m always not getting what I want. Hm? What happens? I get bitter, don’t I? Ah? Angry, jealous, envious of people. Ah? It shows in my face, in my… everything I do. Hm? So find out for yourself why this craving exists. Moment... as we said at the beginning, where there is a cause, there is an ending of that cause. If you can find out why this craving goes on through life, there can be ending of it and... and something new can come in. You follow? But keep on the same railway line for the rest of my life is terrible.
1:29:44 I am sorry to keep you waiting. We’ll continue with it next time.