Krishnamurti - Do we want a children’s school at Brockwood?

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR80DT2.1 - Do we want a children’s school at Brockwood?
Brockwood Park, UK - 16 September 1980
Discussion with Teachers 2.1

0:19	Krishnamurti: Once more unto the breach. What shall we talk about? What shall we talk about? Scott Forbes: In our last staff meeting we talked about having some educational facilities here...
1:04	K: Beg your pardon? SF: In our last staff meeting, we talked about having educational facilities here for young children. K: Ah, yes.
1:14	SF: And many people felt that that was a threat to the character of Brockwood. So, perhaps we could talk about the character of Brockwood because we also have to deal with inviting new staff here and in a sense that also involves the character of Brockwood or the common ground, or some other term.
1:50	K: I think we discussed this matter in Saanen with Mrs Simmons and I, and Harsha, and I think Mrs Zimbalist was there. Can you hear me?
2:06	K: Louder. Dorothy Simmons: What is wrong with the acoustics? It is very peculiar sounding.
2:13	SF: It sounds booming. It sounds terrible in here.
2:20	K: Can you hear me?
2:21	Harsh Tanka: There are fewer people than there were last week.
2:23	K: Oh, Lord.
2:26	Q: If we pull the curtains would it help?
2:30	K: Can't we get nearer, instead of such a big circle? Is that better?
3:17	DS: Well, it is not amplified, Krishnaji.
3:19	K: Is that better? Can you hear?
3:21	Group: Yes.
3:36	K: We discussed in Saanen whether we should have a school for the little children, because Harsha and his wife have got a child.
3:58	DS: Well, not quite, Krishnaji. It was really that Harsh and Claire wanted to talk to you about the difficulties of teaching in Brockwood and also having a child. And that it was really somewhat all of our responsibility to share how this difficulty was solved. It wasn't really with the idea of starting a school for little children.
4:32	K: Do we want a children's school here?
4:35	DS: No.
4:38	K: In Brockwood. You say no. Then what happens to Harsha and his child?
4:47	DS: That is a school, it is not a school.
4:50	K: Don't call it a school, let's call it whatever you like.
4:54	DS: A kindergarten for staff children.
4:58	K: Yes, kindergarten, alright.
5:09	Shakuntala Narayan: We talked this over in the staff meeting. We talked it over among ourselves in the staff meeting and the difficulty is that, the place as it is, Brockwood, it can only hold so many people and we have the maximum number of students.
5:32	K: Alright, you cannot have them in Brockwood. That is simple. Before we discuss where they should be, do we want it? A kindergarten, whatever you call it.
5:48	Mathew Mitchel: I think that is probably why Scott raised the question in the form that he did, because the objection seemed to come up that we would be willing as long as it wouldn't change the character of Brockwood.
6:02	K: I can't hear.
6:04	SF: Matthew is saying that we seem to say that we wouldn't mind having that, as long as it didn't change the character of Brockwood. But many people felt that the character of Brockwood would be changed and that is why perhaps we could talk about the character of Brockwood and what impact this would have on it.
6:30	K: Sir, there are two issues: do you want a kindergarten, not in this building, but nearby?
6:42	SF: Well, some people say no, because it would change the character of Brockwood.
6:47	K: Would it? What is the character of Brockwood?
6:51	Q: Krishnaji, I feel that before we even go into this point, two things have become confused. One is the question of Harsh's child and Claire, those three and what to do with their child, and the other is whether we want to have a kindergarten here, which obviously means a junior school later. The two things have got mixed together. I think that if we could solve the problem of Anand and his education, if we are all concerned with it we can create something for him, then we can look at the deeper question or the other question – not the deeper question, the other question – which is whether we want to have a kindergarten, a junior school here at Brockwood. I think there are actually two separate matters.
7:42	Q: There is also the question of whether staff have time and energy to raise a family.
7:53	Frances McCann: Shouldn't it be a project, let's say, of Harsh and Claire, with the help of Brockwood they could put a building if they want, a mobile building for the school, for the little school or something, but let them start as a project, if there are other children that come, alright, but not involve the staff and have children here, in general. It is happened like this.
8:29	K: I happen to have two children here. I am one of the teachers and I don't want to leave Brockwood and I want these children to be educated in this kind of atmosphere. What shall I do, leave Brockwood? And either go to India or somewhere else? What shall I do? Please discuss that question. Not where and how, etc. Do you want me and my children to leave Brockwood?
9:11	Q: I would say definitely not. Q: No
9:15	K: Don't be too quick about it, let's find out. Do you want me to stay here, do you want to lose me, if I can put it that way.
9:34	Doris Pratt: Personally, I don't want to lose you, I want to know how you came to be here with two children.
9:39	K: I happen to, you invited me.
9:41	DP: No. We never invited you to have two children.
9:43	K: Alright, wait – I was married, and twins. Ms Pratt, just let's be simple. Before, you knew and you invited me to come to Brockwood and teach here, I was married, and you knew I might have children and I now have twins. What are you going to do? Two years, three years.
10:21	SN: I think generally when staff come here it is made quite clear to them. I think generally when most of us have come here it has been made quite clear to us that there really isn't a place for children here. That is the nature of the place. But now we have a child here.
10:44	K: Face it. S N: So we are facing it.
10:46	K: Now, what do you want? Do you want me to leave you? Do you want me to stay here? And what will I do with my children?
11:00	MM: I don't think anybody would say we want a person to leave here. At the same time, probably what some other people are thinking is that, yes, we would like the people to be here, but at what cost would it be, what would it involve to the school.
11:15	K: Let's start, sir. I have two children here. You want me to stay here. Right?
11:23	MM: We are saying, but not any cost.
11:25	K: What? SF: He says not at any cost. We don't want you to stay here at any cost.
11:30	DP: And we want to know what sort of a teacher you are.
11:32	K: I am a good teacher, you like me. Right? You don't want to lose me. That is a major thing, isn't it?
11:45	MZ: That is the basis of these fantasy twins. We are dealing with a situation where we have two teachers whom we value immensely, we want to keep them, they have a little boy.
11:56	K: That is the problem. That is all I am saying.
12:01	K: How will you deal with this problem?
12:05	SN: Sir, we have all agreed. I don't see any difficulty. We have all have agreed that we have got to help out.
12:11	K: So, how will you help out?
12:13	SN: Well, we have got to work something out but it takes some time to find out what...
12:19	K: No, let's do it now.
12:23	SF: There are two objections which are been raised, Krishnaji. One is that the nature of this place does not include little children, and two, that if you have little children you can't give enough energy and attention to Brockwood.
12:41	K: You may not, but we can hire somebody.
12:45	DP: No, and you have got to be able to hire somebody of the quality who is going to educate those little children rightly.
12:51	K: Yes, of course. D P: It is not of course, of course – you can't get the people like that.
12:55	K: How did we get all of us here? If we want that, we will get it.
13:01	DP: We have come here of our own accord, but then you have got to look around...
13:04	K: We will get it. Once you want to have such a person, you will find them.
13:10	DP: You say that, but where is our biology teacher we have wanted it for years? We haven't been able to find him yet.
13:17	K: Alright, then what shall we do?
13:19	DP: I don't know, Krishnaji, but it is not so simple.
13:21	Q: Krishnaji, in a family situation I personally feel that, and it might be interpreted as chauvinistic, but the mother needs to spend time with the child, needs to spend plenty of time with the child.
13:38	K: We know all that, sir. What do we do? We know why the mother should, and so on. What shall we do?
13:46	Q: Sir, could I ask, we are saying: can we do something so that this family doesn't have to leave.
13:55	K: That is one question.
13:57	Q: Yes, and so can we work out something? And the other question is: do we want the school to adjust to such an extent that because there is a child we make a nursery, because the child grows we make a junior school? Or can we consider, do we want a nursery and a junior school, consider, maybe we do, and then this separate question: can we do something about it so they don't have to leave if they have a child?
14:24	K: Look, one boy by himself is bad for him, isn't it? You must have other boys. So, you have to include other boys. So explore it.
14:37	Q: I am saying, can we work out something so that the boy has companions and that the family doesn't have to leave, to disassociate with Brockwood. Can we work something out?
14:48	K: I think one can.
14:52	SN: Yes, I think we can.
14:54	K: Which means what?
14:57	Q: Does that involve other families also?
15:01	SN: Yes, but it doesn't involve other families at Brockwood.
15:05	FM: No, it could be a separate... S N: It can be a separate unit. It doesn't have to be that the other families who are involved have to come and work here necessarily, because then we are going to have the same problem repeated: who is going to look after the children while they are working.
15:22	Q: Well, we have a sexual problem here. I don't think there are two staff members who are not involved in sex, one way or another.
15:30	Q: What would you say if we had children here?
15:34	K: I don't quite understand all your arguments.
15:37	Q: If you are saying that there is going to be a nursery because there is a child, and there may be another staff member who may have two children. If we had children here wouldn't that change something about the place? Two years ago we talked about it and we raised the question: what would happen if people here had children, and I think we said we don't want it.
16:05	DS: No, we said we would take responsibility for the two children who were then already born.
16:10	SN: Yes, but we were saying we didn't want it for others.
16:12	Q: And we turned down people who were qualified for the job. Because they had children we said, look, we can't accommodate.
16:25	SF: Krishnaji, what we have been saying by saying, I am sorry, if you have a child you can't come to Brockwood, and by saying other things, we have been saying that Brockwood cannot have little children here, that the nature of the experiment or the nature of the life that we are trying to live here cannot include little children.
16:53	Q: For their sakes. SF: For our sakes.
16:56	SN: And their sakes. For both sakes.
17:00	SF: And that should be examined, I feel.
17:14	Q: Do we want to make the school bigger? Because having a nursery and then a junior school means much bigger. I think at one point there was talk about keeping the school small.
17:27	MZ: Why does it mean bigger if we had another place? It wouldn't be Brockwood, it wouldn't be this building.
17:34	Q: But wouldn't those people want to come and join the staff meeting?
17:37	DS: Wouldn't they want to have food here?
17:40	MZ: We can adjust all that. We could have it a day school where you have possibly one teacher and keep it small. How does that change Brockwood?
17:51	Q: We can discuss and say, do we want to have facilities around, in England, or in Hampshire, and nursery and junior schools, but it seems it would have to be separate from Brockwood, in the sense that it can't be here.
18:17	Q: But for instance, there is Richard Cook that used to be here with Annette. Richard Cook, that used to be here at the school. He has a child, probably about the same age now. If they could sort of maybe get together, if they want to begin a little school and then they have two children, maybe some others...
18:40	K: Do we want a kindergarten school? Please, just a minute. Not at Brockwood itself
18:51	SF: We don't have the room.
18:53	K: For obvious reasons. Do you want a kindergarten school, we will call it a kindergarten for the moment, nearby, where Harsha's son can go and other children who are interested in Brockwood perhaps could go there too. That is the question you must decide.
19:17	MZ: What was that last, about the parents?
19:20	K: Other parents who might be interested in Brockwood, who cannot come here, who would like to have their children brought up by us.
19:31	MZ: Are you meaning a boarding school? Are you talking about a boarding school?
19:36	K: I don't know what I am talking about. I am just putting it forward.
19:43	Q: The thing is, that if it is to be a day school then the parents would want to live really close. If it is to be a boarding school in which the children go home at weekends, which I think is a feasible proposition.
19:54	Q: Not for the child. Q: No.
19:58	MZ: First of all, little children at that age,
20:02	MZ: shouldn't be boarding students. K: Wants their mother and father.
20:07	MZ: And secondly that really gets us involved in running everything, food, laundry, etc.
20:13	Q: Then there are quite considerable difficulties in finding accommodation for the parents.
20:17	MZ: But that is their problem. We aren't responsible to run the parents' lives, too. We are offering education in the school like any other school.
20:27	K: Mrs D, what do you say?
20:29	DS: Well, the problem is, Krishnaji, if you have it outside the school, say we could find the building to start, where Harsh and Claire would live and have Anand there, then you have to get other children, say six other children that would want to come there. The difficulty is, how would you house the parents? We have got one already who would like to come, but they can't find a house and they can't leave their jobs. It is extremely difficult.
21:01	DP: Would Harsh and Claire want to run such a thing? Would they want to run the school? Withdraw their energies from here and run that. Would they want to do that?
21:12	DS: Well, they would need help. Claire was saying that she would be interested in being, obviously, deeply involved in it.
21:20	DP: She can't be deeply involved there and deeply involved here.
21:23	DS: Well, she may be able to. With help, I think that she could give as much time in the art room as she has been doing, with help. I think that it is possible.
21:32	HT: Actually, it would allow us to give more time because at the moment we have to do all that for Anand anyway, and just between the two of us.
21:39	DP: If you give more time you get less time with your child.
21:42	HT: As long as he is with someone who cares, that is not too bad.
21:46	Q: Doris, when your children start going to school you get less time with them anyway. What we are really considering is the right kind of schooling for Anand. That he spends less time with his parents is a natural occurrence when his schooling starts.
21:59	Mary Cadogan: But aren't you really talking about two things? Because if you start a kindergarten for three year olds, you are really also committing yourselves, I think, to a junior school.
22:08	DS: Well, it could be the same size junior school. If you go to any school your range of friends at a large comprehensive school, twenty, we don't think that is a very good idea, so your range would be about six or ten at most. I don't call that a school, I call that an organic growing up of somebody with brothers and sisters and friends.
22:33	MC: Yes, except that once you commit yourself to a junior school you are then tied by all sorts of educational regulations as to what you provide in terms of accommodation,
22:43	MC: games, equipment and so on. DS: It would be a day school.
22:47	MC: You still are tied by regulations for those things.
22:50	DS: Same as we are here. MC: Yes, but here you have got it all.
22:53	DS: But we haven't, we provide it.
22:55	MC: No. But I don't think you are really talking about a kindergarten only.
22:59	DS: No, we are not, but it is a kindergarten at this moment, which would not get into a school for 50 at any time, that we can foresee at this moment anyway, and I see it as, as the child grows older his companions grow up with him and the teachers adjust what they are saying and teaching, and parents, and then eventually they arrive here in the normal course of events.
23:28	MC: But the parents would have to find their own accommodation.
23:34	FM: But at Ojai they kept renewing the same age so that finally most children remain very small and there is a minority, maybe two or three that are older and so it makes a very difficult situation, because they didn't grow with the children that were there for some reason.
23:53	DS: Because those aged children didn't turn up, possibly, you mean?
23:56	FM: Maybe, things happen.
23:59	MZ: It runs up to the age of high school and we have the buildings for high school students. It takes them up to 14.
24:06	K: Mrs D, what is the principle on which you run this thing?
24:11	DS: I haven't got a principle.
24:13	K: Principle, you understand by what I mean by principal. What is the intention, on what basis do you want this kindergarten?
24:23	DS: I want it on the basis that this is a need at this moment.
24:25	K: Is it because Harsha and his wife have got a child and that gives us a problem, because you want to keep them, and therefore that becomes a problem?
24:39	DS: I don't look on it really as a problem.
24:41	K: It doesn't matter. That is our concern.
24:43	DS: Our concern, yes.
24:47	K: What shall we do?
24:52	DS: Well, I think we are saying, at least I think most of us are saying we are concerned and that we see the difficulties, how do we solve it? In the trying to solve it we have found that quite a number of us felt that it shouldn't be within, say, at the staff cottages because that could change the nature of this place. That was what was said.
25:17	K: Are you saying, we are concerned, but not at Brockwood, the buildings in itself?
25:26	DS: Yes. K: Then what is the next step?
25:28	DS: The next step is that we try to find an appropriate place that we think would solve the problem for Harsh and Claire.
25:35	K: Alright, appropriate place nearby. Then you can't have one boy.
25:42	DS: No. K: So what will you do?
25:45	DS: So, what we have been trying to do, we have interviewed and seen several people as a possibility for looking after or starting, initiating the school, along with Claire.
26:01	K: I can't hear properly, here.
26:03	DS: The incoming staff, obviously it is not going to be solved unless we have an extra member or two of staff, because there will have to be somebody teaching and looking after the children. The one or two or three children we may well have.
26:23	K: Now, so we want that, do we?
26:26	DS: I think it is necessary. K: So it is necessary. Then we will have to have somebody to look after those three, four, five or six children.
26:35	DS: That is right.
26:37	K: Do we set it into motion, that is all I am asking, the whole business?
26:42	DS: I think it has been set into motion, and we are saying how can it best be done, Krishnaji.
26:49	K: First, let's find out if we want that thing to be set in motion. Do we? Do all of you?
26:58	DP: It seems very problematic because there is only one child we go on who has got the background of this at all. We don't have any other children with this kind of background or these kind of parents who want this kind of background.
27:10	K: But the moment people hear that you are starting a kindergarten school.
27:16	DP: We can take in children galore, but then there are the parents.
27:20	K: Wait. You can then choose and go through all of it. But do we set it in motion? That is what I am asking. Do we say, let's do it?
27:27	DP: Well, is there anybody with the enthusiasm to do it? To do that you need real dedication.
27:35	K: You are not answering my question, if you don't mind. Do we set it in action?
27:42	DP: We haven't the energy.
27:44	K: You mean you haven't got the energy.
27:46	DP: I don't think anybody here has the energy.
27:48	K: Then what shall we do? D P: I don't know.
27:52	SN: But Harsh and Claire might have the energy. I mean, they are actually interested.
27:57	DP: They haven't got the energy, either.
27:58	MZ: Doris, let them speak for themselves.
28:00	DP: Well, looking at their faces, they haven't.
28:03	HT: I think the reason our faces look like this is because, in fact, the present situation is difficult for us, and I am certainly willing to do whatever is necessary, but I think there is another kind of decision which may not involve anyone actually helping directly, helping out to teaching or building, but maybe a decision to say, yes, let's do this.
28:31	K: That is what I am asking. Do we all say, let's do it? And then we will find out the methods, how to do it, and so on, so on. Do we all agree to this?
28:51	FM: It depends how it is done, I think.
28:54	K: No, first you must agree whether you want it.
28:56	FM: Yes, I agree if it is done a little separate from the place, but with the attention of us.
29:05	SF: But that is the second step, Frances.
29:07	FM: Well, no, there is an agreement that has to come, otherwise it will influence all the staff into doing the same thing, so it has to be carefully...
29:19	SF: You see, Krishnaji, I am not sure if I am correct on this, but I have the feeling that many people want to keep Harsh and Claire here and so they say, yes, we must do this, but it is like, you have to empty the garbage once a week or you have to do something unpleasant that you don't really want to do, but you see that you have to do it, so reluctantly you agree yes.
29:49	K: That is not my point at all. SF: No, that is not your point, but a lot of people in response to your questions, – don't you see that it is necessary to do it? – will say, yes, we see it is necessary, without embracing the project...
30:04	K: I wouldn't approach it from that point of view at all.
30:09	SF: But then the question of how far away can we keep it, doesn't arise.
30:15	K: Scott, I am asking first, do we, all of us agree to such a thing? Which means we set it in motion, moving, finding teachers, etc. Are we together on this?
30:37	Christina West: I don't know. I think we are together on wanting to help Harsh and Claire and Anand, but that may involve that they leave the school, and I don't think we all agree that it may involve setting up some kind of nursery school.
30:52	K: Of course, it involves getting a hold of a building...
30:55	CW: No, it may involve that Harsh and Claire and Anand leave Brockwood altogether, as I see it.
31:01	K: I don't understand.
31:02	HT: She says it might mean that we have to leave Brockwood, Claire and I have to leave Brockwood.
31:07	K: Is that it? CW: It might. The best thing for Harsh and Claire and Anand, and for us.
31:11	K: No, it was understood from the beginning that you don't want them to leave.
31:17	CW: Well, I don't know whether you can say that absolutely.
31:21	K: Please, that is what I understood.
31:24	DS: But Krishnaji, you just asked that. You were really just asking that, and Christina's trying to...
31:30	K: I am just asking that. You see, we are all so vague in this matter.
31:39	DP: The last time we spoke about this, with Joe's child, you were very strong. Do we want to hold up domesticity, you said.
31:47	K: What? D P: Do we want to hold up domesticity as an ideal for our children who are here? So the students who are here can go along the natural trend of begetting, begetting, procreating...
32:03	K: At present, Ms Pratt, there is only one child here.
32:06	DP: But then you said if you have the children in the school...
32:10	K: Just a minute. Let's begin. Ms Pratt, would you kindly listen to what I want to say? Which is, we have got one child here and you don't want to lose the parents. That apparently is definite. And the concern, our concern then: what do we do with that one child? It is wrong for that one child to be educated by himself. It is absurd. Q: Yes, it is hard.
32:38	K: So what next? Move to the next step.
32:41	HT: I think it is been raised right now that it is not definite that the solution is to keep the parents here.
32:51	K: What?
32:52	Q: He says it doesn't look definite to keep the parents here.
32:57	SF: Harsh is saying that it is not apparent that everybody wants to keep the parents here.
33:05	K: Then decide. For God's sake, let's get on with it. Let's decide.
33:11	Q: I think the general feeling is we do want keep the parents here.
33:14	K: Don't keep on changing back and forth every minute.
33:18	Q: No, but Krishnaji, there is only one child for the moment.
33:21	K: But that is not the point. Q: I say we may find another child, but the child alone, we agree, isn't happy, isn't well.
33:30	K: I see. I can understand this kind of meeting lasting three hours. Now I understand what you are all doing.
33:38	Q: It is difficult to leave from something, you know, the one child is a reality, it is here, but the other children, maybe they will come, but we haven't got them.
33:47	Q: Krishnaji, it was suggested the one point, and I was told that in Winchester there is a playschool for young children, and one thing was suggested was that Anand could be daily taken by his parents to that school.
34:02	K: In a local school?
34:04	Q: Apparently a good school, in Winchester.
34:05	K: Wait, sir. I wonder if it is really a good school where they don't learn all kinds of horrible things.
34:11	Q: I heard that you said it was a good school.
34:13	Q: It is the best of a bad bunch.
34:15	Q: The lady is interested in Brockwood, isn't she?
34:18	Q: Yes.
34:19	FM: If you are going to have a really good bunch, you have got to have good teachers.
34:23	K: I give up. You see how we go?
34:25	FM: No, then we are putting the child...
34:27	K: Please, Ms McCann, just let's get to the point, first point: do we want a kindergarten school here or not?
34:35	SN: Sir, I think most people are saying that they are willing to help, but they are saying that personally...
34:45	K: You are too occupied. S N: We are occupied.
34:48	K: Please, come to the point.
34:50	SN: So that is what everybody is saying, that we can't do this.
34:52	K: Alright. That is understood.
34:54	SN: But if they have the energy or interest, and if they can get people who are interested, I don't think anybody is going to object.
35:02	GB: Yes, it should be a project of the teacher, no?
35:06	Q: Krishnaji, can I ask you a personal question?
35:08	K: Not me, ask them. Ask me.
35:14	Q: Whenever it was, two years ago, we had this discussion about having children at Brockwood.
35:20	K: We said no.
35:22	Q: We felt there should be a certain kind of atmosphere here.
35:25	K: Alright. Understood, sir. We don't have it here.
35:28	Q: Now, I get the feeling that at this point now, looking at the situation, you feel it might be a good idea for us to have young children, not too many, going up...
35:40	K: Perhaps. I say perhaps.
35:42	Q: I say, what is your feeling about it? Do you think that would be a good idea?
35:46	K: I feel it is a good idea. That doesn't mean you must agree with it. For God's sake.
35:51	Q: Can you explain to me why, though?
35:53	K: Because, it is obvious, sir.
35:56	Q: Well, it is not so obvious...
35:58	K: Perhaps you can help them to become a different human being if you start with the very young people – perhaps. Do we all agree?
36:21	HT: I think we don't quite know what it will involve us in.
36:26	K: Sir, that is not the point In principle, at least. In principal.
36:32	SF: I think in principle we would say yes.
36:34	K: Alright, if we all agree in principle that it is the right thing, then what is the next step?
36:40	DP: You are jumping.
36:43	Q: Yes, I think Doris is right. I think we have got to have a feeling that everybody agrees.
36:47	K: I am asking, don't waste time. We have been here, what, 45 minutes?
36:53	DP: We cannot help being uncertain. We do not know what is right. Part of us rebels about having to be involved with very young children and part of us sees the need for an organic whole, dealing with the young child from cradle to the grave.
37:08	MM: But Doris, partly what Christina is bringing up is, well, that is what the question is: do we agree to help them? And when we look at the practical aspects of it, it may lead us to different considerations when we look at the nitty-gritty. Who knows? Perhaps when we look at the practical aspects it becomes so unfeasible that it would be more practical for them to leave. That might be possible. That is not the question. The question is: in principle, do we agree to help them? Then we will look at the practicalities and see where that leads us, but we have to first be taking initial steps.
37:46	Q: We are trying to work that out. MM: But that is always being asked.
37:49	MC: But I thought the question was not, do we agree to help them, but do you agree to start a nursery school which is different.
37:55	Gisele Balleys: Yes, are we interested in a nursery school.
37:59	MM: It is the same. GB: No, it is not the same because if we want to help them they will always be a burden on us, but if we feel, yes, it is interesting to accept young children, and we want to work with them, then they just fit in it, and that is very different, and our energy will not be a good deal that we make for them, it is something in which we are really interested because young children can be also very interesting for us.
38:32	MC: If you ask the question, would you want to start a nursery school or a kindergarten even if Harsh and Claire were not here? Couldn't you then get a more direct and honest answer to what you felt?
38:44	MZ: That is not the situation.
38:46	MC: Well, no, but that is the principle that Krishnaji said: do you want to start a kindergarten?
38:50	MZ: We don't want to just for the sake of having a kindergarten.
38:52	GB: But why not? That is a question we should look into.
38:59	DS: We want to start a kindergarten for a kindergarten's sake. We want to start a kindergarten for the sake of Harsh and Claire and Anand, and that is very different. GB: Yes, it is.
39:11	Q: What about the rest of the staff?
39:13	DS: That is what we are asking you now.
39:16	Q: No, but I mean, the rest of the staff, there may be some that would like a child of their own and to be brought up here it is a question of energy.
39:38	Q: But as Brian reminded us just now, we went into that a few years ago and we said no, this is not the place for that, and everybody who was here agreed to that, and we also said at that point that we feel responsible for those two we already have. Now, one left, which in a way created the problem because if it would have been much easier to bring up two. Now we are left with one, so I feel responsible to want do something about it, but I still haven't changed my mind about not having any more children here. But I do feel concerned for the one we have got, and I feel if anybody else now feels, I would like a child, then they should look at that very seriously. And maybe then it is not the place for them.
40:26	FM: We are exactly at the point that we raised when Joe was here.
40:30	Exactly. K: What is it?
40:32	FM: I say we are back at the same point when Joe was here. He wanted a separate school...
40:42	K: If I may interfere with this, what is the right thing to do? Apart from Harsh and their child, what is the right thing to do?
40:57	DS: Well, it isn't an issue apart from Harsh and Claire, Krishnaji.
40:59	K: What?
41:00	DS: I don't consider it is an issue apart from Harsh and Claire. I am not sure. Well, you asked, Krishnaji. We should be able to say what we are thinking.
41:10	K: I beg your pardon?
41:12	DS: I say we should say what we are thinking because it is very important.
41:15	K: I am going to say what I think, presently. This question was raised in India. I am not comparing India to this place, I am just pointing out. When we started Rishi Valley and Rajghat we thought, why shouldn't we have young children in the school? We said perhaps as they grow up they might be different, growing in our atmosphere, with our care and so on, so on. And they are not different. They have been cared for, looked after, and when they reach a certain age they join the gang. That is one thing. And at Brockwood, apparently, you want to restrict it or keep it at a certain level which is, no children. The teacher may be married but for God's sake don't have children. Is that it?
42:27	Q: That is what she said. K: No, I want to know.
42:29	SF: That is what we are saying, yes.
42:31	K: No children. But if you have children what will you do, by mistake? So, taking all this into consideration, what is the right thing to do for all of us? How will you find out what is the right thing to do? For all of us, not for me, and you agree, together, what is the right thing to do in a situation where there is a child and we must act rightly towards that child? Not keep Harsha or lose Harsha, but act rightly with regard to that child. As a responsible group what shall we do? Right, sir? Q: Yes.
43:38	K: What shall we do? The right thing, not my opinion, your opinion, and so battle with each other, let's find out what is the right thing to do.
44:00	FM: It may involve quite a lot of time.
44:02	K: No. Please, Ms McCann, you are not answering my question.
44:07	FM: Yes, but that would be part of the question for the child.
44:10	K: You are not answering my question. I want to find out what is the right thing to do.
44:17	Q: I think the right thing to do is...
44:20	K: Be careful – not 'you think', either it is right or wrong. Don't say, 'I think it is the right thing to do,' and then somebody will say, 'No, that is not the right thing to do,' and keep on battling. That is what we are doing now. So can you find out what is the right thing to do? Not your opinion.
44:43	SF: It is fairly clear, Krishnaji, that the young child has needs and those needs have to be met somehow.
44:53	K: Yes, you answered all that.
44:56	SF: One can do that here or one can do that...
45:00	Q: Elsewhere. SF: Right.
45:01	K: No sir, it involves not only one child but other children.
45:07	SF: Yes.
45:08	DS: What other children? You mean the other children who would be coming in?
45:12	K: Other children, you can't educate one child. You must educate him with others, which means at least half a dozen children, or more. Now, what is it, the right thing to do?
45:32	Q: So we find a place...
45:34	K: No, before you find a place, women, teach and all, what would be the right action that we have to undertake to help this boy?
45:48	Q: I think one thing, Krishnaji, is we must all be together.
45:51	DP: That is what he is trying to get at here.
45:57	Q: We must all be clear about this together. D P: We are not.
46:00	K: It is very clear now, sir. Harsha has got a child. He cannot be educated outside in those rotten little schools. I mean, if I had a son I would strongly object to him being sent off to those schools. And he must be educated, it is part of our responsibility, which means other children. We will find other children.
46:35	Q: Half a dozen.
46:36	K: More, other children, don't say half a dozen or two or three, we must find other children.
46:44	Q: Well, Krishnaji, we don't want too many because...
46:48	K: Don't bother about too many, too little, leave the number. X number. Right? Do we undertake this, and is it the right thing?
47:06	Q: But Krishnaji, it is not the only alternative for Anand's education, is it? If we are thinking only of Anand's education then doesn't Ojai exist for the education of the young children?
47:22	K: So, send him?
47:24	MZ: Ojai is across the world. What good is that going to do Anand?
47:26	K: Send him there?
47:28	Q: If you are only looking at the education of Anand, then Ojai exists for that.
47:33	K: No, just a minute. Send him there, the boy?
47:39	Q: Well, not send him, take him.
47:41	K: How will you do it? What will you do?
47:46	Q: Well, the whole family could go to Ojai.
47:48	K: Ah, that means you lose Harsha.
47:52	Q: Yes, I guess.
47:53	MZ: Lose them both?
47:55	K: You are all going round and round and round. 45 minutes, we haven't come to any decision. It is most extraordinary.
48:07	Q: Can I add to that? K: Add to the mess.
48:12	Q: Are you saying that any other school apart from our school is a Brockwood school?
48:19	K: Look, I don't know. There may be a marvellous kindergarten school around the corner.
48:26	Q: You are saying that the people who grew up from the beginning to the end join the gang.
48:32	K: That is what has been found in India. Unfortunately, please sir, when we started those schools in India we asked whether they should have little children. We said, if we have little children we might help them to grow up to be different human beings. And so we did it. And they are just like any other human beings. And Anand and X, few numbers, may be different. Right? Before we say, what is the right thing to do? You are not answering my question.
49:17	DS: Krishnaji, apart from Harsha and Claire, I think it is a quite wrong thing to do.
49:27	K: Why?
49:28	DS: Because I think that our intention was not that at all. It was for an adult place, this. K: What?
49:34	DS: It was an adult place. Into that has come the fact there is a child of Harsha and Claire, which we have concern about, but not that we are interested in starting a junior school here.
49:46	SN: Dorothy says our intention was to start an adult place.
49:52	Q: That Brockwood should be for adults, not children.
49:54	K: Then what is an adult?
49:56	DS: We are, but you are adult from 16 onwards, beginning to be adult.
50:00	K: So you are saying from 16 onwards nobody should be here.
50:05	DS: 16 upwards they should be here. K: Upwards, that is it, upwards.
50:09	DS: Yes, we have said that, Krishnaji.
50:11	K: Yes, is that the right thing to do? Is that what you all want to do?
50:14	DS: It is what we said we were going to do. I am not interested, myself. I haven't the energy or the interest to start a junior school, apart from Harsh and Claire. Absolutely no.
50:31	K: What do you mean 'apart'?
50:32	DS: Apart from Harsh and Claire, that we must consider them which I certainly want to, but the junior school which you are suggesting like India, I am not interested. K: I am not suggesting anything. I am asking what is the right thing to do.
50:48	DS: Well, I am trying to clarify it, Krishnaji.
50:51	Q: What you are saying is this wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for the existing child.
50:55	DS: No. Q: But nevertheless, Dorothy, it still means that we will be committing ourselves to a kindergarten and a junior school. Those are the facts.
51:03	DS: Not a junior school. We would undertake the education of Anand, with Claire and Harsh's help, with about six children, and we would move it on as he grew up, and as he grew up, if there were no more children it would end there. That is what we are saying.
51:22	MZ: You wouldn't take in each year younger ones?
51:24	DS: No, we would not take each year, younger ones.
51:29	Q: But when he comes to the age of 8, 9 and so on, what then?
51:32	DS: Then we get different sorts of teachers to teach them. I mean, people are educated at home. They will take part in this as they get older, up to a point, but they will be day children apart from Harsh's child. I am quite clear myself that a junior school here is out.
51:53	K: I can't hear, sorry.
51:54	Q: She is saying that she feels that it shouldn't be a kindergarten or junior school, that this school should be set up just for Anand and his friends and as they get older, younger ones will not come and take their place.
52:10	K: So, what will you do when they are 10?
52:15	MZ: The same class could be taught, 10 year old subjects and 11 year old, so that one little nucleus will be educated.
52:24	K: I see what you are saying. I understand what you are saying. So that little group will continue and not be added to. Right? Is that your consent, your opinion?
52:39	Q: I don't think that will happen. I think there will be another exodus.
52:44	K: Yes, sir!
52:45	DS: That is possible, but an exodus only within the school staff.
52:51	DP: Yes, but just when you are ready to close the school...
52:54	DS: That may be so.
52:57	SF: Krishnaji, do you feel that having some young ones close by and trying to educate them and bring them up differently, could that be good for Brockwood? And if it could be good, how could we do it in a way that would be good for Brockwood? And if it wouldn't be good for Brockwood then perhaps we shouldn't do it at all.
53:32	K: I wouldn't look at it that way, personally. I may be wrong, but I wouldn't look at it that way. I want to find out for myself what is the right thing to do. I have always, in my life, I am not asking your life, in my life I have always done that. What is the right thing to do?
53:53	SF: You see, Krishnaji, many people are objecting on the grounds that they see that this would have bad repercussions for this place...
54:03	K: Why should it have bad repercussions? You have six children, with Anand, to be educated. As they grow older you don't add any more children, and educate them, is that it?
54:21	DS: Yes.
54:22	K: And then carry them on, those six.
54:26	DP: But even that will make the problem still worse.
54:29	K: Please, just a minute, let me finish. So you don't add any more except those six, and Brockwood will be responsible for those six.
54:40	DS: That is right. K: Right?
54:42	DS: If their parents wish them to go on that way. If their parents, who will be living outside wish them to go on.
54:50	K: Yes, yes. Do we all agree to this?
54:59	DP: It is no good just agreeing, you have got to envisage the work involved and who is going to do it.
55:06	K: First, Madame...
55:08	DP: Beginning with an idea is useless.
55:10	K: Oh no, it is not. How do you think Brockwood started?
55:13	DP: Well, it wasn't an idea, was it? K: No, it was not.
55:16	DP: It was an inspiration of yours.
55:17	K: It was Mrs Simmons and two or three others said, we must have a school.
55:22	DP: It was under your inspiration.
55:25	K: And they investigated whether it should be in Holland, France, where was it? Switzerland was out.
55:32	FM: Holland.
55:34	K: And so on. So, I am just asking: do we all agree to this?
55:44	David Wolf: They saw the need for it and they put in a tremendous amount of energy, and we are all putting that energy in today. I don't think the need is seen for a junior school, a kindergarten, the energy isn't apparent in us.
56:02	Q: But do you agree that about taking a group and moving them, that group, until they come to Brockwood?
56:10	DW: If I was honest, it gives me the horrors, the idea of it.
56:15	MZ: I don't understand what is imagined as the difficulty. Supposing there was a building found, never mind how, but we find a building, it is separate physically from Brockwood. There is a teacher, possibly with Claire involved in it. How is this is affecting Brockwood? We may never even see the children.
56:40	Q: Yes, but are the rest of the staff excluded from that, so far as any children that they may want?
56:48	MZ: Well, I don't think that is the question. I don't know if anybody is dying to have a child.
56:52	Q: Well, it is been a question, because this isn't the first child, it is the third that has been a problem, and the other two had to leave.
57:05	MZ: Who was this? The third one?
57:10	Q: Who was the other one? D P: Natasha, Adam.
57:13	Q: And Francois, the yoga teacher.
58:02	K: Harsha might feel – he might feel, both of them – it is not worth bothering about, all this crowd. I am going with my child to India or Ojai or elsewhere. Then what will you do?
58:26	DS: Very sad. I should be very sad.
58:29	K: Yes, but you will put up with it.
58:32	DS: I may have to. We would help them as much as we could financially, in every way. We would help them to do something.
58:38	K: That is, if they want to leave because they say, this is too undignified altogether for you all to decide what I should do with my child. And I say, sorry, I have listened to all of you and apparently you are all so uncertain about this, I am leaving the day after tomorrow. I will take him to India or Ojai or somewhere else, what will you do? You will be, as Mrs Simmons said, she will be sad, but the fact is he is leaving, what will you do?
59:12	DP: Help them as much as we could financially.
59:14	K: Oh no, that is irrelevant.
59:16	SF: No, I personally would feel that I had failed in a responsibility as a human being. I would feel that I failed in my responsibility towards the three of them, somehow, fundamentally. I feel also that we would be failing them... failing something else that we are trying to do here, if we deal with it as a problem, an unpleasant problem.
59:44	K: Scott, what will you do if it was your child? Sir, just listen to me. Listen to me. Listen. What would you do if it was your child in this, not Harsha, your child. What do you want? Find out, sir. You are not answering. What is the right thing to do in all these questions? Not opinions, not evaluations, not say, well, we have the money, have we not the money, who is going to do it, who is not going to do it, have we the energy, I don't like it, all that. Cut all that out. What is really the right thing to do? It was the right thing to do to start Brockwood. I am utterly certain about that. There were a lot of protests, people didn't like it, but we said it is necessary, it is right thing to do. We have done it. So if we can find out what is the right thing to do, all of us, with regard to this, then we can either say, sorry, Mr Harsha and the little one. Please, sorry, go somewhere else, or we might say, please stay and let's find out what to do. We can't keep on changing all the time.
1:01:12	SF: No Krishnaji, that is why I began the question about the nature of Brockwood, because perhaps starting a small thing might actually be good for the nature of Brockwood.
1:01:28	K: I don't know. SF: I don't know either...
1:01:30	K: I wouldn't even consider that. If we do the right thing it will be good for everything.
1:01:35	SF: Yes, sir.
1:01:40	Q: Krishnaji, if I were Harsha, I would go to the staff, I would talk to them...
1:01:48	K: Here you are. He is talking to you.
1:01:50	Q: I would see what is their response. Are they going to be willing to support me?
1:01:57	K: He is asking you, sir. Don't raise that. Now, answer it.
1:02:02	Q: And if I felt they weren't then I would leave.
1:02:09	Q: The right thing for the child is to have this kind of education from birth, and the right thing for the staff is not be involved in family matters.
1:02:23	Q: But he is involved in family matters. How can we take such a stand?
1:02:26	Q: Well, what you give to him, you have got to give to all.
1:02:30	Q: No, I don't think that is necessarily so. He has a child and I don't.
1:02:37	Q: Then why do people get married?
1:02:42	K: Sir, have you ever asked about anything, what is the right action? Or you are just propelled by your prejudice, your circumstances, this or the other? I am just asking you, sir.
1:03:02	SF: It is difficult to know even where to begin to look at that question. K: Let's find out. We are not doing that. We are all offering our opinions. We say it is not convenient because we have not enough energy, where will it be, I say that is totally irrelevant. Let's find out for each one of us what is the right thing to do. Apparently, we haven't thought along those lines. Someone says, let's have it, someone else says, don't have it, and so on, that is what we have been doing for an hour.
1:03:55	Q: I think it will not be the right thing to do – start a junior nursery and so on. Not because we want to start it.
1:04:05	K: Look sir, to find out what is the right thing to do, have a quiet mind for a few minutes. Right? Because you might catch something which may be true. But if you are all the time chattering, chattering, what is the right thing to do, you will never find out. Don't go off into a kind of dream. I want to know what to do, should I marry or not marry? You see, if I may point out, I hope you don't mind my being a little personal, when this person dissolved the Order of the Star in the East, with land and all kinds of things, there were two parties: don't, do. The people who said, 'Keep it', were very, very influential people – money, they saw in the future, etc., could help and so on. Others said, 'You are talking against all this, therefore your action is to do it.' Right? I listened to both of them and I said I am going to find out for myself. If I do this or that I will regret it for the rest of my life. So I said, right, I will decide, not these two. And that was the right thing to do. When I broke with Rajagopal that was the right thing to do. I had no money, I couldn't even go to the dentist, but it was the right thing to do. Now, if you could get together in that way. It doesn't mean we all shut up. That is what has happened now, look. Perhaps we have not thought along these lines at all. I feel if we decide, all together, the right thing, we will have energy, the right person will come, everything will happen rightly. But if you kind of – I don't like it, you like it, and I think that this place shouldn't be that, and so on, we will just get lost in all this. You see, there I was dealing with myself. Right? Though I was the head of a great organisation, lots of money, property, it was my decision. Here it is a collective decision. I don't know if you see the difference.
1:07:57	Group: Yes.
1:08:02	K: If we don't collectively come to that, then we will always regret and say, for God's sake, this is useless, and so on and so on and so on. Sir, you are concerned in this. What is the right thing to do? Not as a parent. Right? If you can disassociate yourself as a parent, look at it. You understand what I am talking? Can you? H T: Yes.
1:09:39	K: And for each of us, what is the right action in this? Please, what do you say?
1:10:21	SN: I don't know. I personally don't see that there is such a problem.
1:10:26	K: No, I am not talking as a problem. It was not a problem to me when we dissolved the Order. When I did a great many other things, it was not a problem.
1:10:54	DS: It seems to me that is something rather different.
1:10:56	K: No, I explained it was an individual, K doing this.
1:11:03	DS: Yes, but it was crystal clear, wasn't it? K: What?
1:11:07	SF: She said it was crystal clear to you, to dissolve the Order of the Star.
1:11:12	K: Absolutely.
1:11:14	DS: But it is not crystal clear. K: Ah, I say why?
1:11:16	DS: Because we are a group. We are many people.
1:11:20	K: Therefore, let's find out. It is is a marvellous thing to find out if a group cannot come to right action instead one person doing it. That would be a marvellous thing. After all, that is what Brockwood means. Sir, you stated at the beginning: what does Brockwood stand for? This is it. To lose our particular personality, etc., and come to something together. I don't see why it can't be done.
1:12:40	Q: Krishnaji, just earlier Mr Wolf said it would give him the horrors.
1:12:45	K: No. Perhaps he might change his opinion now.
1:12:48	Q: Of course he won't change. K: Just a minute, sir. Mr Wolf is looking at it from a different angle. I want him to look at it from a totally different point of view, if he will. You see, when I am in California there is Mrs Lillifelt, Mrs Zimbalist, three of them, Mr Hooker, and we meet, we discuss. We are all together in it, not Lillifelts, two of them separate, because we are all concerned about it. We all put our minds to it, our hearts in it and say, let's find out what is right, and it takes a few minutes because it takes a little time to meet, and then we decide. Apparently, it is extraordinarily difficult here. We have spent an hour and a quarter about something that can be decided. I don't see, if it is particular, I don't see why it couldn't be general, what we are talking about this morning.
1:14:40	SF: Could you explain that, sir?
1:14:43	K: If I can do it, as a separate human being, I don't see why we can't all of us do it together, which is general. I am sure Mr Wolf and I, if we sat down together and said, look, let's forget – you follow? I will forget, I mean it, I will forget entirely my personal opinions, judgments, evaluation. You do the same. Together let's find out. You understand, sir? Apparently we can't do it and that is why we take an hour and a quarter to discuss something like this. And apparently that is what you do at every meeting.
1:15:48	DS: Krishnaji, I think that is reasonable. I think that one must do it in the way one has to do it. And I don't think an hour and a quarter or ten minutes or ten hours... K: I can't hear.
1:16:00	DS: It doesn't seem to be relevant, the hour and a quarter, or that one should be hurried into this. It is a very, very important thing we are deciding.
1:16:07	K: No, I didn't say about the school. I am talking about what is the right thing to do about the school, about Brockwood, about anything.
1:16:18	DS: Well, we do, and we manage to agree together very well. Just some things are very difficult, and this is one of them.
1:16:31	K: No.
1:16:33	DS: Well, it seems so.
1:16:35	K: I don't admit anything is difficult. Sorry. For myself, I will not admit it is difficult to go to Ojai, go to India. I have done this because it is the right thing to do. Therefore, it is not difficult.
1:16:56	DS: It is not clear that it is the right thing to do.
1:17:02	K: Because, if I may point out, we are all projecting our own personal like and dislike.
1:17:10	DS: I don't think so, necessarily. S N: I don't think that is true.
1:17:14	K: That is not true? S N: No. K: Then what are you doing? Wait, what are you doing? When you say it is not true, what are you doing?
1:17:25	SN: Well, in this case I don't think that...
1:17:28	K: Please, I asked, what are you doing? Don't say 'in this case' and move off.
1:17:33	DS: Krishnaji, I think you are bullying us a little.
1:17:36	K: Allow me, forgive me, I am asking her. Do you want to find out what is the right thing to do?
1:17:45	SN: I do. K: Now, how will you find out?
1:17:53	SN: Well, I listen to what everyone is saying.
1:17:56	K: Ah, I say one thing, he will say another and your friend will say another, your husband will say something else. So, are you gathering information from others, or do you yourself say, look, what is the right thing to do, apart from all opinions?
1:18:16	SN: I am not even sure what we are talking about when you say, what is the right thing to do? What is the right thing to do about what?
1:18:22	K: About anything. With the state of your mind that says, this is the right thing to do. I am lost. Alright. S N: I am lost, too.
1:18:38	K: Oh no, I am not lost.
1:18:41	Ingrid Porter: I don't see how we can be clear, Krishnaji, that when we think something is the right thing that it is not really coloured by our own personal prevalence.
1:18:50	K: No. Look, Mrs Porter, to have a mind that is very clear and that knows what is the right thing to do under all circumstances, not about this, Harsha's son, I am talking of the mind that says, this is the right thing to do. You understand what I am saying?
1:19:27	IP: I understand what you are saying.
1:19:29	K: The mind. Not about a particular incident or an action to take place.
1:19:53	Q: Are you saying that we are not approaching the decision in the right way? K: Ah, no. Sir, either there is a right thing or a wrong thing. It is not something in between.
1:20:06	SF: Krishnaji, could we take an example.
1:20:13	K: No, sir. If you take an example we will all discuss the example but not the mind that says, this is right. Or wrong, I won't touch it. Perhaps it may be too large a question I am putting forward, so it probably has no value, but personally, I wouldn't enter into all these discussions.
1:21:30	SF: What would you do, sir?
1:21:31	K: Ah! I haven't even told Mrs D about it, or Maria, because I know what is the right to do. For myself, I don't say for you.
1:21:58	SF: But sir, if it is the right thing to do, it is not for you or me, it has got to be the right thing to do.
1:22:04	K: Yes.
1:22:06	SF: Now, how is one to see that right thing?
1:22:11	K: No, I wouldn't put that question. I would put it differently. I would say, what is the mind, the mind, that says this is right? That will have no regrets, no problems. You follow? Or do you say, that is hopeless, that is impractical, so let's go on fussing about very little things? That is what we are doing. No? Do you agree, Mrs D, when we started Brockwood, that it was the right thing to do?
1:23:16	DS: I don't know.
1:23:19	K: You are saying that now or then?
1:23:24	DS: I don't know.
1:23:27	K: What do you mean you don't know? DS: I just don't know.
1:23:31	K: You are in it now. DS: Yes.
1:23:41	K: Can we ever say to ourselves, that is the right thing to do? About anything, not Harsha, don't bring in his family. Well, I am afraid we haven't solved your problem.
1:24:26	SF: Krishnaji, there are times when something does seem like it is absolutely the right thing to do.
1:24:32	K: Find out about what is the right thing to do about this.
1:24:43	SF: But how does one approach that, because we apparently don't know?
1:25:01	K: First of all, there are a group of us here, about 40 of us, I don't know what is the correct number, about 30, 40 of us, can we all meet on the same ground, first? Same ground, you understand what I mean?
1:25:23	SF: That also should be talked about.
1:25:26	K: Can we do it?
1:25:28	SF: What do you mean by the same ground?
1:25:38	K: On the same concern, same ground, have the same feeling of being together about something. If I want to marry, I must be quite sure she wants to marry me. Do we meet together on that? No, of course, that is an example. That is why I don't take examples.
1:26:11	SF: But is that a beginning point, or is that somehow an ending point?
1:26:17	K: Look here, sir, we have lived together here in this building, in this house for a number of years. We have seen each other, talked to each other, and so on. Is there a common bond between us all? That I won't divorce, leave Brockwood because I disagree with you? Go off and do something else? You understand my question? No? You understand my question, sir?
1:26:57	SF: Somewhat, sir, but the common ground...
1:26:59	K: No, the common bond. Together. Look, I cannot leave Mrs Simmons. You understand? I will not. I can't. I may disagree, I may agree, I may say, look, do this, don't do that, but it is impossible to say, I won't come near. I don't know, are we in that position, or we are all are saying, I may leave? What, sir? What are you saying to me? Have I an eye on divorce when I marry? A young man came to me some time ago and he said, I am getting married, but I know I can always divorce. Are we like that? Well, sir?
1:28:35	Q: What you are saying is that we see this situation is here...
1:28:39	K: No, I am not concerned about the situation. I am not concerned about Harsha and his child. I am concerned whether we are all together, at any time, about anything.
1:28:54	Q: Well, can't we start with one thing? Can't we start with this one thing?
1:29:00	DS: I think, Krishnaji, the fact that you ask that question, the fact that Brockwood exists in the state it is, shows that we are together on many things.
1:29:10	K: What?
1:29:11	DS: I think the fact that Brockwood exists in the state that it is, that you come here, suggests that we do work together.
1:29:19	K: So, you have a common bond that none of you are going to leave.
1:29:26	DS: If it took a wrong turn, one might have to.
1:29:28	K: Because it is your baby, it is your child, it is your school.
1:29:31	DS: Yes, but one also has to fight for one's child and see that it is brought up in the right way.
1:29:37	K: I am not talking of the right way. DS: Well, you are.
1:29:39	K: That comes second. Second step. Do I feel this is my house and I will do anything not to leave?
1:29:49	DS: Because they are saying, this is my home, this is my house, they are voicing their troubles, their difficulties, and they should be able to.
1:29:59	K: Ah, no. There is no problem, it is my house. No, darling lady, there is no problem. I will show you.
1:30:06	DS: Well, there is a problem. K: Because it is not our house.
1:30:11	DS: I think that is not fair, Krishnaji.
1:30:22	K: If I have a problem with my wife, thank God I haven't got any, if I have a problem with my wife it means my wife and I are separate. I refuse to have a problem with my wife. I know I am going to the extreme, and that is my life, that is the way I live. I don't want to have problems, even with regard to Harsha and his child. Not that I am indifferent, not that I am callous, but I am not going to make this into a problem. Because there is a right action with regard to it, and when there is right action there is no problem. What do you say, Mr Wolf?
1:31:39	DP: You are the only lucky one amongst us. K: No.
1:31:42	DP: You are the only lucky one amongst us. Because you know what right action is. K: Please, Ms Pratt,
1:31:50	K: I am not a freak.
1:31:54	DP: You are, sir.
1:31:55	K: Please, I refuse to accept that. I am not a freak.
1:32:07	DP: Obviously, everybody here wants right action but...
1:32:10	K: You can't want it. Again you are going off to something else. We have never gone into this and say, what is right action with regard to everything? To have a mind that says, this is right. You want to find out? Look at me, please, not at somebody else. Do you want to find out what is right action?
1:33:00	SN: Yes. K: Not about that. Do you? S N: Yes.
1:33:07	K: Are you quite sure? Right? What price will you pay for it? Come on, lady, what will you do?
1:33:47	DS: I won't pay for it.
1:33:52	Q: She won't pay for it. K: Oh, you have got to pay for it. Wait, let's understand what I mean by paying for it.
1:34:02	Q: Don't you have to pay for it by giving up your opinions?
1:34:05	K: Yes.
1:34:07	DS: Giving up what? K: Giving up a lot of things. Not coin. Would I, if I am neurotic, give up my neuroticism to find out what is right action? Or I am really not concerned about right action, but my neuroticism is so marvellous.
1:34:32	Q: Well, if you are that neurotic you probably wouldn't know anything about right action anyway.
1:34:45	K: You must make a gesture towards it. So what am I to do? You understand my position now? What am I to do? What, sir?
1:36:38	GB: If we drop all our opinions... K: Ah, I don't know, don't tell me. If you say we must drop all our opinions, you haven't dropped them.
1:36:50	GB: No, I said there is only the doing.
1:36:56	K: Alright. This is a problem to you, you have to decide this.
1:37:01	GB: I feel there is the doing, which can answer.
1:37:03	K: That is for you to decide. I am not coming into this. Sorry, I am not brutal, I am not indifferent, I am not impatient, I am not angry, I won't enter into arguments: this, that, the other, when I see something that is right, for myself. You understand, sir? When K dissolved that order, Dr Besant, world figure, built up this boy, or found and organised around him – to go against all that. You are playing with words.
1:38:16	DS: It was crystal clear, Krishnaji.
1:38:18	K: What? DS: It was crystal clear.
1:38:22	SF: She says, it was crystal clear.
1:38:25	K: Why isn't it crystal clear to you? Don't ask me.
1:38:29	DP: Because we are caught in our own...
1:38:31	K: Move out of it.
1:38:33	DP: We don't know where to move, which direction, up, down, round.
1:38:36	K: Move.
1:38:38	DP: Well, there is no movement possible.
1:38:41	K: Then die. What are you talking to me?
1:38:47	DP: We are talking to you about the difficulty of collectively solving a practical problem. And also we haven't got the benefit of your...
1:38:56	K: No, there is no benefit, I am a freak, put me out of the window.
1:39:01	DP: You are not a freak because you have got your people in Ojai who resolve things instantly with you.
1:39:06	K: A man called me, what is it? A genetic freak.
1:39:14	DP: If we could put this question to Alan Hooker and Mrs Lillifelt, they could solve it for us, perhaps.
1:39:20	K: Please, Ms Pratt, you are going off to something.
1:39:22	DP: No, sir. K: Yes, I am sorry.
1:39:23	DP: You have said that they are in complete harmony with you...
1:39:26	K: No. About a particular problem, we all think together and see whether it is the right thing to do. We think together.
1:39:34	DP: Well, perhaps there are too many people here, perhaps there are too many of us.
1:39:37	K: Therefore, you have lived together here for the last ten years, why haven't you solved these problems?
1:39:43	DP: We have solved many problems, but this is a sticky one.
1:39:46	K: No. You are all saying the same thing over and over.
1:39:53	DP: We are all saying it from the same level...
1:39:55	K: Ms Pratt, it is no good talking to me anymore. You people decide what should be done about this, and tell me. I am awfully interested in how you decide, that is all.
1:40:15	DP: We should just try it half and half.
1:40:17	K: Oh, go to it. That is what you have done all these ten years, half and half.
1:40:22	DP: You are not being very fair to us.
1:40:23	K: Oh yes, I am being very exact. It is not a question of being fair.
1:40:34	DW: I would like to say that the reasons that brought this school into being, I think would apply to any age of child, but having said that I think the people who would run that small school should have the temperament for young children. I may not have that, but that would be a separate issue.
1:40:57	K: Quite right, sir. So, carry on.
1:41:05	DW: Well, if we saw that then it would come into being and we would find the right people to run it.
1:41:10	K: That is right. But you haven't found out if it is the right thing to do yet. You are still calculating.
1:41:23	DW: I don't think I would be the right person to be involved.
1:41:25	K: Ah, no. That is not the point. You and I have an issue.
1:41:32	DW: Yes.
1:41:34	K: How shall we solve it? By arguing about it, your opinion, my opinion, say, is this convenient, who will find... you follow? Balancing, weighing and judging and going on indefinitely like that?
1:41:51	DW: No, that would be no good. K: So what will you do then? You have collected information, and you have to act. And you know, if there is action of any regret, looking back and saying, my God, I wish I hadn't done it, all that must be eliminated.
1:43:54	SF: Sir, for one person to see what is right action concerning something seems to be a question of seeing the thing clearly, of some clarity of perception, which, done individually, is different than when several people are doing it together. How do people look at something clearly together, develop a clarity of perception?
1:44:27	K: We have all agreed, all of us, not to be Catholics. Right?
1:44:33	SF: We didn't agree that together, sir. We agreed that individually and we all share that perception.
1:44:37	K: Yes, that is all. SF: That is different.
1:44:40	K: What is different?
1:44:41	SF: Well, we might all agree, we probably agreed before we came here, or we saw that we didn't want to be Catholics. K: Finished.
1:44:49	SF: But we came here with that perception, which we all share. But here we are, all together already here, we are faced with something that we must have right action towards. Now, how do we develop that together?
1:45:04	K: First of all, do we all together look out of the same window?
1:45:09	SF: No. K: That is all. Do we all look at it through that window? Which doesn't mean that we are all obstinate...
1:45:33	SF: Sir, we all look through different windows.
1:45:38	K: I am trying to find out, Looking through different windows, trying to find out what is right action. SF: Yes, sir.
1:45:44	K: You can't. SF: Right. How can we all...
1:45:48	K: No, wait. You can't. So, drop your looking out of your window. That is your gesture, that is your saying, I will do that.
1:46:01	SF: Is that enough to produce... K: Wait, sir. You see? Do it. See what happens if you really do it. Then there is no window. Right? I am sorry I have not been much help here about your child, sir. It is a problem for all of you to decide, because all of you have to face it, not me. I am off at the end of next month. Sir, if somebody came to you with a gift, would you refuse it? Gift of land – just a minute, slowly – gift of money, gift of himself, would you refuse it? It is very interesting. I come here, I am interested. I come to Mrs Simmons and say, look, I offer myself. I don't know what I can do, I have no special capacity, I offer myself. How do you receive me? I am just Mr Harry, how will you receive me? Because this happened in India while I was there, a man came to me and said, I am giving you a hundred acres in Bangalore, it is for you, for your work, will you take it? As I personally don't take anything personally, so I said to the Foundation, here is this land, do you want it? They said no, 'No more schools.' Right? You mean that man who offers you, out of his heart this thing, you refuse it? Go on sir, tackle it. Many people come to Mrs Simmons – she has told me this – and say, I want to do everything I can, and we have no room, you have all the people necessary, what do you do with me? Sorry, I am not putting this blame, I am not criticizing, I am just wondering what happens to me. Well, Mr Wolf, what am I to do? What will you do with me?
1:50:57	DW: You are the person who has come to the school.
1:51:00	K: I come.
1:51:03	K: My gift. DW: Yes.
1:51:06	K: What do you do with me? DW: If we are too full?
1:51:10	K: Yes, you are too full, all the garden is full, and school staff, what will you do with me?
1:51:22	DW: Well, the fact that we are too full should be as plain to you as it is to us. The fact that we were full would be plain.
1:51:29	K: Yes, so you say, please, sorry, buzz off.
1:51:33	DW: Well, gently.
1:51:34	K: Yes, politely with velvet gloves, but buzz off.
1:51:38	DW: Yes. Well, it is never really a simple case like that.
1:51:45	K: No sir, I have come. Please, I am that kind of person, I come to offer.
1:51:51	DW: Yes.
1:51:53	DP: But you may be batty. You may be totally batty.
1:51:56	K: I am. D P: Well, then we would have to say, 'So sorry.'
1:51:59	K: That is why you are refusing me.
1:52:02	DP: I don't understand. Q: Yes...
1:52:07	K: That is what you have done just now.
1:52:10	DW: Even if were full we would take you in if we saw something that we really wanted or we needed in the school.
1:52:20	DP: I don't understand. K: I will explain. You have to find right action. Right? With regard to this particular, or about anything. The man comes along says, I will show it to you, this is your gift. Right?
1:52:41	DW: No, I haven't followed. K: Am I talking nonsense?
1:52:43	SF: No, sir. D P: Well, I don't know.
1:52:45	DW: Could you just say it again, I haven't followed.
1:52:55	K: I think there is right action about everything. And that right action can take place only when I have the mind for it. You understand? DW: Yes.
1:53:11	K: Whether to build, not build, with a child, marriage, anything. I must have a certain mind that acts rightly all around.
1:53:22	Q: Yes.
1:53:24	K: I come along and say, this is your gift, take it. Right? You have got it? DW: Yes.
1:53:35	K: So, what do you do with the man? What do you do with that gift?
1:53:39	SN: Take the gift. We take the gift. We would receive the gift.
1:53:45	K: Have you?
1:53:49	Q: Yes, I think so, Krishnaji. K: Have you? You say it so quickly. I am not being paradoxical, I am not being mysterious. I say, here it is. Unless you do this you will be at loggerheads about every problem in this place. Either it is a very dangerous gift and therefore you say, sorry, keep it to yourself, or it is a very great jewel and you say, by Jove, I must cherish it, I must look at it, I must watch it, I must wear it, I must look. You follow?
1:55:14	There is the dinner bell.