Krishnamurti_EN

Krishnamurti Subtitles

Brockwood Park - 4 September 1980

Public Question & Answer 2

0:31	This is the last day
	of questions and answers.

0:35	On Saturday and Sunday
	there will be a talk.

0:43	As we said the other day,

0:49	a question implies

0:53	that we are seeking an answer.

1:01	The answer is in the question,

1:04	not away from the question.

1:08	And in asking these questions
	and finding their answer

1:16	we are together
	investigating the question.

1:23	It is not that the speaker
	talks or answers,

1:27	but together we are trying
	to find the right answer.

1:33	It is not the answer
	according to me or according to you,

1:37	but what is the right,
	true answer to these questions.

1:45	I have been handed over nearly a
	hundred and fifty questions, probably,

1:51	and we cannot possibly
	answer all those

1:55	and I hope you won’t mind
	if some of them are not answered.

1:59	It isn’t that we have chosen
	something that suits us,

2:03	that can be answered by us,

2:05	but rather we have tried to find out

2:09	what are the most significant and
	worthwhile questions to be answered.

2:20	1st Question:
	What is the relationship

2:22	between thought and consciousness?

2:26	Why do we seem unable
	to go beyond thought?

2:31	What is the relationship
	between thought and consciousness,

2:36	and why do we seem unable
	to go beyond thought?

2:46	Do we want to be serious
	about all this?

2:51	All right, let’s be serious.

2:57	First of all, what is thinking,
	what is thought,

3:09	and what is consciousness?

3:11	Are the two different?

3:17	When you say, what is the relationship
	between thought and consciousness,

3:22	it implies, does it not,
	that there are two different entities,

3:27	or two different movements.

3:30	And we are trying to find out,
	the questioner tries to find out,

3:34	what is the relationship
	between thought and consciousness.

3:40	So first of all we have to consider
	together what is thought,

3:46	what is this whole
	question of thinking

3:52	upon which all our conduct,
	our activity,

3:57	political, religious,
	economic, social

4:02	and all other factors of life,
	are based on thought.

4:11	Thought is part of emotions,
	sentiment, reactions,

4:20	the recognition of those
	reactions and so on.

4:23	And what is consciousness?

4:27	When we use the word ‘consciousness’,
	to be conscious of something,

4:34	to be aware of, to be able
	to recognise, to understand,

4:42	to have a whole field
	in which the mind is operating.

4:51	That is more or less
	what we mean by consciousness.

4:55	And the questioner says:

4:57	what is the relationship
	between the two?

5:00	So first we have to find out
	what is thought

5:11	upon which
	all our activities are based,

5:15	with all its images,

5:18	all the past remembrance
	and future projections,

5:25	this enormous activity.

5:28	Technologically,
	psychologically, physically,

5:32	almost in every direction,
	thought is operating.

5:39	And our relationship with each other
	is based on thought,

5:47	the thought which has created
	the image about you and the other,

5:51	and the other about you.

5:55	Now what is that thought?

5:58	That thought surely is, is it not,
	based on knowledge.

6:05	Experience, knowledge, memory.

6:13	And the reaction
	of that memory is thinking.

6:18	So it is experience,
	knowledge, memory

6:25	and the movement of thought,

6:28	which is a material process.

6:34	So, thought is always limited
	because knowledge is always limited.

6:42	There is no complete knowledge
	about anything

6:46	except the ending of knowledge,
	that is quite a different matter.

6:53	So where there is
	the operation of knowledge

6:56	and the movement of memory,

6:59	thought is limited, finite, definite.

7:12	And what part does thought
	play in consciousness?

7:21	I hope we are together in this,
	thinking together.

7:29	What is consciousness?

7:38	Our consciousness – all the knowledge
	which we have accumulated,

7:45	all the experiences,
	not only personal but collective,

7:52	memory, genetic responses,

7:58	the accumulated experience
	of generations after generations,

8:06	all the travail, the trouble,
	the anxiety, the fears,

8:10	the pleasures, the dogmas,
	the beliefs, the attachments,

8:16	the pain of sorrow
	and all that is our consciousness.

8:28	I think there is
	no question about that,

8:32	no one would doubt that
	or argue about it.

8:38	You can add or take away from it

8:42	but it is still the movement
	of thought as consciousness.

8:48	One can say
	that there is super consciousness

8:53	but it would still be
	part of thought.

9:01	This consciousness
	is in constant movement

9:08	and breaking up
	the you and the me,

9:18	my nationality with all its
	technological development

9:23	which is becoming a tremendous
	danger in the world –

9:27	nationalism plus technology.

9:31	My religious beliefs, my dogmas,

9:34	my rituals, my wounds,

9:41	my beliefs, my ideals,

9:42	my constant struggle
	to become something,

9:46	all that is part
	of our consciousness,

9:50	not only the consciousness
	of a particular person

9:54	but it is the consciousness
	of mankind,

10:02	because mankind, wherever one lives,
	goes through sorrow,

10:12	agony, doubt, despair,

10:17	depression, great uncertainty,
	insecurity

10:22	and so clinging to some image, belief,

10:26	all that is part of our being,
	our consciousness.

10:34	So our consciousness
	is its content.

10:40	I hope we are meeting each other.

10:43	Our consciousness is made up
	of its content.

10:47	Without the content
	what is our consciousness?

10:57	Is there a consciousness
	totally different from that

11:03	which is made up of
	the various activities of thought

11:08	which we call consciousness?

11:12	To come to that point
	one has to find out

11:18	if thought can end,

11:21	not temporarily,
	not between two thoughts,

11:27	there is a gap and a period of
	silence or unconscious movement.

11:38	Can thought ever end?

11:42	This has been the problem
	of most serious people

11:51	who have gone into this
	very deeply through meditation

11:57	to end thought.

12:01	I hope we are following
	each other in all this.

12:04	I am not talking to myself.

12:11	Can thought,
	which is so enormously powerful,

12:17	which has got such a volume
	of energy behind it,

12:25	that energy created
	through millennia,

12:32	both in the scientific field,
	economic, religious,

12:36	social, personal, all that activity,

12:40	can that come to an end?

12:48	Which means can those things
	that thought has built

12:56	into our consciousness,
	of which we are,

13:01	can that consciousness
	with its content end?

13:11	Why do we want to end it?

13:16	What is the motive behind
	this desire to end thought?

13:24	Is it that we have discovered
	for ourselves

13:28	how thought creates enormous trouble,

13:34	a great deal of travail,

13:37	great anxiety of the future,
	of the past, of the present,

13:42	the thought that brings about

13:44	a sense of utter isolation
	and loneliness.

13:50	Can all that come to an end?

13:58	When one asks that question:
	can it come to an end

14:01	are we seeking a method to end it?

14:08	A system of meditation?

14:11	A system which you practise
	day after day so as to end thought?

14:18	If you practise day after day
	to end thought,

14:22	that very practice
	intensifies thought, naturally.

14:31	So what is one to do?

14:36	I hope we are meeting each other.

14:40	One realises the nature of thought,

14:44	its superficiality,

14:47	its intellectual game.

14:54	One knows all this,

14:57	how thought divides into nationalities

15:01	into religious beliefs and so on.

15:08	And conflict,
	that is all we know,

15:13	perpetual conflict from the moment
	we are born till we die.

15:23	Is that the reason
	why we want to end thought?

15:29	So one has to be very clear,
	if one may point out, the motive.

15:37	One must be very clear
	why one wants to end thought –

15:42	if that is possible.

15:47	Because the motive
	will dictate, will direct.

15:54	One can live in an illusion

15:58	that thought has come to an end

16:01	and many people do

16:04	but that illusion is merely
	another projection of thought

16:08	which desires to end itself.

16:15	So realising the whole
	complex problem of this,

16:20	thought and the things
	that thought has built

16:28	as consciousness with its content,

16:31	can all that come to an end?

16:48	If the speaker says it can,
	what value has it?

17:01	None whatever.

17:08	But if one realises

17:11	the nature of our consciousness
	and the movement of thought

17:16	as a material process

17:21	and to observe it,
	can we do this?

17:27	To observe the movement of thought,

17:32	not as an observer
	different from thought –

17:38	are we following this,
	can we go a little bit into this?

17:45	Can one observe
	the movement of thought,

17:51	not as an observer
	looking at thought,

17:56	but thought itself becoming aware
	of its own movement.

18:14	The awakening of thought

18:19	and thought itself
	observing its movement.

18:28	Can we do this?

18:37	Take a very simple example,

18:41	either greed or nationalism,

18:44	which are both the same:

18:51	to observe it
	as it arises in one,

19:00	and then to discover for oneself,

19:04	is the observer, is the thinker
	different from thought?

19:11	I hope you are following all this.

19:14	Am I making myself
	somewhat clear?

19:21	I observe thinking,
	that is fairly easy.

19:25	I separate myself as an observer
	and watch my thinking,

19:32	which most of us do.

19:34	But this division is illusory,
	is fallacious,

19:43	because the thinker is thought.

19:50	So, can the observer be absent
	in his observation?

20:01	The observer, the thinker
	is the past:

20:05	the remembrance, the images,
	the knowledge, the experience,

20:11	all the things that he has accumulated
	during that time, the past,

20:19	is the observer.

20:23	The observer names
	a reaction as greed

20:30	and when he names it
	he is already caught in the past.

20:34	I don’t know
	if you are following all this?

20:37	Whereas to observe this reaction
	without naming it.

20:50	This reaction which we call greed,

20:53	by the very naming of it
	you have established it in the past.

21:01	It becomes the past.

21:03	Whereas if there is no naming
	but pure observation

21:09	in which there is no division
	as the observer and the observed,

21:13	the thinker and the thought,
	the experiencer and the experience,

21:18	then what takes place?

21:22	You are following all this?

21:26	Are we coming along
	together, somewhat?

21:32	You see, our conditioning is

21:40	this division between
	the observer and the observed.

21:44	That is why we make
	such enormous trouble

21:47	to control the thing
	that is observed.

21:55	I am greedy,
	that is the reaction.

21:58	I am different from greed
	and therefore I can control it,

22:03	I can operate on it,
	I can suppress it, I can enjoy it,

22:07	I can do something about it.

22:08	But the fact is,
	the thinker is the thought.

22:15	There is no thinker
	without thought.

22:22	So, to observe without
	the past memories, reactions,

22:31	all that projecting itself
	immediately in observation.

22:40	So to observe purely

22:46	without any direction,
	without any motive,

22:54	then one will find
	if one goes into it pretty deeply,

23:00	that thought does come to an end,
	thought being time.

23:10	Thought is a movement
	and so time is a movement,

23:14	so time is thought

23:19	– right, sir?

23:23	This is real meditation,

23:26	not all this stuff that goes on
	in the name of meditation,

23:29	this is real meditation, which is:
	to see the movement of thought,

23:34	for thought to see
	its own movement, how it arises,

23:41	the creating of the image
	and the pursuit of that image,

23:50	and to observe it
	so that there is no recognition

23:54	of what is being observed.

23:56	You understand what I am saying?

24:01	That is, to make it very simple:

24:04	to observe a tree
	without naming it,

24:13	without wondering
	what use it can be put to,

24:21	just to observe it.

24:26	Then the division between the tree
	and you comes to an end,

24:31	but you don’t become the tree
	– I hope not.

24:37	The division

24:42	which the word creates,

24:48	the division, the physical, nervous,
	neurological responses to that tree

24:56	creates the division.

25:02	That is, can I observe my wife
	if I have one,

25:07	or my girl if I have one,
	or another,

25:13	without the word
	and so without the image,

25:21	without all the remembrance
	in that relationship,

25:27	which is to observe purely?

25:33	Then in that observation,
	which is complete attention,

25:40	has not thought come to an end?

25:49	This requires
	a great deal of attention,

25:53	close, step by step watching,

25:58	like a good scientist
	who watches very, very carefully.

26:08	When one does that
	thought does come to an end,

26:12	therefore time has a stop.

26:18	Has this question been
	sufficiently answered?

26:26	2nd Question: Does compassion spring
	from observation, or thought?

26:39	Is not compassion
	an emotional feeling?

26:43	Does compassion spring
	from observation, or thought?

26:47	Is not compassion
	an emotional feeling?

27:01	I don’t know how to answer this.

27:08	What is compassion?

27:11	Is it an emotion?

27:14	Is it something romantic?

27:18	Does it expend itself
	in some kind of social work?

27:28	So one has to go into this.

27:30	To find out what is compassion,
	one has to enquire what is love.

27:40	Then that means: is love desire?

27:46	Is love pleasure?

27:50	Please, sir, question yourselves.

27:55	And can there be love
	where there is ambition?

28:04	Can there be love when one
	is trying to become something,

28:13	not only in the outward world
	but also psychologically,

28:19	this constant struggle to be
	or to become something?

28:28	Can there be love?

28:31	Can there be love
	when there is jealousy, violence,

28:40	when there is division
	between you and me?

28:50	And can there be love
	when we are nationalistic?

28:55	Please, sir, think about it.

29:01	You hear on the television
	every evening; British, British.

29:08	The same thing in Italy,
	the same thing in France,

29:13	in Russia, in India
	– we and they.

29:21	When there is such
	nationalistic, religious,

29:26	division of beliefs, images,
	can there be love?

29:32	Go on, sir.

29:37	Of course there can be no love
	when there is such division.

29:41	But all of us
	are so heavily conditioned.

29:50	And we accept that condition
	as normal.

29:57	A friend the other day said,

30:00	‘I read about what you are
	talking about conditioning.

30:03	Wouldn’t it be very dangerous
	if I unconditioned myself

30:07	and drove on the right side
	in England?’

30:19	So don’t uncondition
	ourselves too much.

30:31	And what relationship
	is love to sorrow?

30:40	I have lost my son
	and I suffer enormously

30:48	because I loved him.

30:52	Can suffering and love go together?

30:56	Please, sir, please,
	ask these questions.

31:01	Not only personal suffering

31:04	but the enormous suffering of mankind,

31:10	the suffering that wars
	have brought about

31:14	and are still bringing about,

31:19	the suffering of people
	living in the totalitarian states.

31:32	So, can there be love
	when there is suffering?

31:44	Or only with the ending of suffering

31:47	there is this
	passionate compassion.

31:58	After stating all this,
	where are we?

32:06	Is love just an ideal?

32:12	Something which we don’t know

32:15	and therefore we want
	to have that thing,

32:20	we want to have that extraordinary
	sense of great compassion?

32:30	But we won’t pay the price for it.

32:37	We would like to have
	the marvellous jewel

32:41	but we are unwilling
	to either make a gesture,

32:49	or do something
	that will bring it about.

32:54	If we want peace
	one must live peacefully,

32:58	not divided into nations and wars

33:01	and all the hideousness
	that is going on.

33:13	So what price do we pay for this?

33:17	Not coins,
	not with coins and paper,

33:21	but inwardly how deeply
	is this reality to come?

33:31	How deeply, profoundly
	do we see nationalism,

33:36	all division must end
	in myself as a human being?

33:42	Because we human beings,
	you and I,

33:48	are like the rest of the world,
	psychologically.

33:52	You may have a different colour,
	short, tall, darker,

33:56	black, white and so on,

33:59	but inwardly psychologically

34:01	we are like the rest of mankind.

34:05	We all suffer,
	we all go through agonies,

34:07	we all go through great fears,
	uncertainties, confusion,

34:14	we are all caught in this
	absurd religious nonsense.

34:23	We are that.

34:29	And can we see the totality of this,

34:35	not as an idea, not as something
	longed for, but as a fact,

34:45	as a burning, actual, daily fact?

34:53	Then out of that perception

34:57	the responsibility of compassion comes

35:03	Compassion goes
	with great intelligence.

35:15	That intelligence is not
	the operation of knowledge.

35:23	Knowledge can solve many problems
	– intellectual, technical and so on,

35:30	but intelligence is something
	entirely different.

35:36	Please don’t accept what I am saying,
	just look at it.

35:43	One may have read a great deal

35:50	and be capable of great arguments.

35:56	The mind can solve problems.

36:00	The problem-solving mind
	is not an intelligent mind.

36:07	Intelligence comes
	with compassion, with love.

36:17	And when that intelligence
	is an action of compassion

36:24	it is global
	not a particular action.

36:31	I hope we can go on
	to the next question.

36:38	3rd Question: Why is it
	that in the balance of nature

36:42	there is always
	death and suffering?

36:46	Why is it
	that in the balance of nature

36:50	there is always death and suffering?

36:58	Why is it man has killed
	fifty million whales?

37:07	Do you understand what I am saying?

37:11	Fifty million.

37:14	And still Russia and Japan
	are killing whales.

37:21	They are killing
	every kind of species, man.

37:28	The tigers are coming to an end,
	the cheetahs, the leopards

37:36	and the elephants,
	for their tusks, for their flesh, etc.

37:43	Is not man a much more dangerous
	animal than the rest of the animals?

37:50	And you want to know

37:53	why in nature
	there is death and suffering.

38:03	You see a tiger
	killing a cow, or a deer.

38:12	That is their natural way of life

38:17	but the moment we interfere with it,
	it becomes real cruelty.

38:25	You have seen, I am quite sure,

38:28	baby seals being knocked on the head,

38:34	and when there is
	a great protest against it,

38:37	the unions say
	that we have to live that way.

38:40	You know all this.

38:46	So, where shall we start

38:50	to understand the world about us

38:54	and the world within us?

38:58	The world within us
	is so enormously complex

39:04	but we want to understand
	the world of nature first.

39:10	All that becomes our mania.

39:20	Perhaps if we could start
	with ourselves –

39:29	not to hurt, not to be violent,

39:36	not to be nationalistic,

39:39	but to feel for the whole of mankind,

39:46	then perhaps we shall have
	a proper relationship

39:49	between ourselves and nature.

39:53	Now we are destroying
	the earth, the air,

39:56	the sea, the things of the sea,

40:03	because we are the greatest danger
	to the world,

40:12	with our atomic bombs – you know
	all that, what is happening.

40:21	4th Question: Why do you say
	attachment is corruption?

40:27	Are we not attached
	to those we love?

40:31	Why do you say
	attachment is corruption?

40:35	Are we not attached
	to those we love?

40:43	Does this need explanation?

40:49	When you are attached to an idea,

40:53	to a concept, to an ideal
	as the Communists are,

40:58	or the Catholics, or the Protestants
	or the Nationalists,

41:02	isn’t there the beginning
	of corruption?

41:09	Corruption being,
	to corrupt, to break up,

41:14	the meaning of that word
	is to break up.

41:19	When I am a devout Marxist

41:29	and to me that is the only solution
	to all our problems

41:36	and then I am unwilling to examine any
	other questions, any other avenues,

41:46	I am committed,
	I am tied.

41:55	When I am tied to a belief,

41:58	to a God, to an image, to a person,

42:02	is there not the beginning
	of corruption?

42:06	Please, sir, it is not
	what I am saying,

42:08	just look at it for yourselves.

42:11	Is attachment love?

42:17	When I am attached to you
	as an audience, God forbid,

42:24	when I am attached to you
	as an audience

42:28	I am exploiting you,

42:34	I am deriving great comfort,
	I am fulfilling myself.

42:40	Is that not corruption?

42:44	When I am attached to my wife,
	or to my friend, or whatever it is,

42:48	to a piece of furniture,

42:53	especially antique furniture –

43:00	somebody has put antique furniture
	in the room I happen to live.

43:16	When I am attached to that piece
	of furniture I become that furniture.

43:24	And then corruption begins,
	I have to guard it,

43:26	I have to protect it
	– fear.

43:31	Fear begins with attachment.

43:40	I may derive pleasure
	in that attachment,

43:45	comfort, encouragement,

43:49	but in that there is always
	the shadow of fear in it,

43:54	anxiety, jealousy,
	possessiveness,

44:00	and people like to be possessed
	and to possess,

44:07	is that not corruption?

44:11	Because in that there is
	an enormous sense of fear,

44:15	anxiety that I might lose it.

44:24	So, can one live in this world

44:29	without a single sense of attachment

44:35	to anything?

44:39	To your beliefs, dogmas, to God,

44:42	to various symbols,
	ideologies and images,

44:47	wife, furniture, house,
	experience – all that,

44:51	to be completely...

44:54	which doesn’t mean
	that one becomes detached.

45:03	When there is an attempt
	to be detached

45:10	then detachment
	is part of attachment.

45:18	Because the opposite
	has its roots in its own opposite.

45:25	Is that clear?

45:29	So to understand
	the nature of attachment,

45:36	the consequences of it,

45:39	to see the whole
	movement of attachment,

45:45	not just one particular attachment
	to a person, to an idea,

45:51	to a piece of furniture,

45:53	but to have the comprehension,
	the insight

45:58	into this whole
	movement of attachment.

46:04	When you have an insight into it,
	which I have gone into,

46:08	which we’ve explained the other day,

46:11	then attachment drops away
	immediately

46:16	without any conflict.

46:21	Then perhaps one has love

46:26	because love and fear and jealousy
	cannot go together.

46:43	5th Question:
	You say we are the world

46:45	but the majority of the world seem
	to be heading for mass destruction.

46:51	Can a minority of integrated people
	outweigh the majority?

46:58	You say we are the world

47:01	but the majority of the world seems
	to be heading for mass destruction.

47:08	Can a minority of integrated
	people outweigh the majority?

47:13	Are you the minority?

47:20	No, I am not joking.

47:22	This is not a callous question.

47:28	Are we the minority?

47:33	Or, is there one amongst us
	who is totally free of all this?

47:41	Or partially we are contributing
	to the hatred of each other –

47:52	psychologically.

47:53	You may not be able to stop Russia
	attacking Afghanistan

47:58	or some other country
	– or America, or England,

48:02	or Japan,
	or whatever country it is,

48:05	but psychologically

48:10	are we free
	of our common inheritance,

48:16	which is our tribal
	glorified nationalism?

48:26	Are we free from violence?

48:35	Violence exists where there is
	a wall around ourselves.

48:41	Please understand all this.

48:47	And we have built ourselves walls,
	ten feet high or fifteen feet thick.

48:56	We have all of us
	have walls around us.

49:01	And from that arises violence,

49:06	this sense of immense loneliness.

49:14	So the minority
	and the majority is you.

49:24	If a group of us fundamentally

49:31	have psychologically
	transformed ourselves

49:37	you will never ask this question,

49:44	because we are then
	something entirely different.

49:54	6th Question: Christian
	mystics describe

49:56	certain forms of mental prayer

50:00	in which they speak to God,
	or what they call God.

50:07	They say that in such prayer
	something tremendous happens

50:12	which they call union with God.

50:15	They are convinced
	this is not an illusion.

50:20	Are they deceiving themselves?

50:25	Then, what is faith?

50:28	It appears to give people
	the power to do extraordinary things.

50:38	Christian mystics describe
	certain forms of mental prayer

50:43	in which they speak to God,
	or what they call God.

50:50	They say that in such prayer
	something tremendous may happen

50:55	which they call union with God.

50:58	They are convinced
	this is not an illusion.

51:02	Are they deceiving themselves?

51:04	And, what is faith?

51:06	It appears to give people
	the power to do extraordinary things.

51:15	When you are
	tremendously national

51:19	it gives you extraordinary
	powers to kill others.

51:27	Look what they are doing.

51:39	So, can an illusion really
	give you enormous vitality,

51:49	enormous strength
	to do extraordinary things?

51:52	Apparently it does.

51:57	The Christian missionaries,

52:02	what they have done in the world

52:04	because they believe in something.

52:07	That belief may be totally unreal,

52:12	the image which the mind has created,

52:15	they believe in that
	and they are attached to that,

52:20	and they want to convert all
	the others of the world to that.

52:28	And they’ll put up
	with extraordinary discomforts,

52:31	with disease,
	and every kind of trouble.

52:39	And those mystics

52:42	who talk to God through prayer –

52:49	I don’t know what God is,

52:55	nobody knows.

53:01	But to have an image
	that there is a supreme entity

53:08	and through prayer,
	through faith,

53:14	through dedication,
	through devotion,

53:19	you can achieve mountains.

53:26	Because, sir, if you look,

53:31	what America and Russia
	and England and France are doing.

53:41	They have tremendous faith
	in their country,

53:45	in their nationalism,

53:48	and they are building
	an enormous technological world

53:52	to destroy the others who are
	also doing exactly the same thing.

54:02	To go to the moon,
	what enormous energy it needed,

54:08	what technological capacity, faith,

54:14	the American first on the moon
	with their flag.

54:21	Or the British with their flag
	– it is equally the same.

54:32	And in the Christian world

54:38	they place faith first and not doubt.

54:46	Faith has taken the place of doubt.

54:52	Doubt is very cleansing,
	purifies the mind.

54:59	If you doubt your experiences,
	your opinions, etc.,

55:07	if you doubt them,

55:10	you are free,
	you can observe clearly then.

55:16	If you doubt your gods, your saviours,
	everything that comes along.

55:24	In the Eastern world,
	like Buddhism and Hinduism,

55:28	doubt is one of the major factors,

55:30	it is demanded that you must doubt,
	you must question,

55:37	you must not accept –

55:41	be a light to yourself

55:46	and that light cannot be
	given to you by anyone.

55:55	Of course now in India and Asia
	it has all gone to pieces,

56:00	they are just like anybody else,
	they are becoming merchants.

56:12	But to have great strength
	– it doesn’t come through prayer,

56:19	it doesn’t come through
	illusions, or faith,

56:24	it comes through clarity,

56:31	when the mind can see clearly,

56:40	and that clarity
	doesn’t come and go.

56:45	When you see something
	clearly like nationalism

56:48	it is the most destructive
	thing in the world,

56:52	then you are finished with it.

56:57	And the ending of that burden

57:02	gives you vitality, energy, strength.

57:07	Similarly, if one is totally
	free of all attachments

57:15	it gives you the strength of love,

57:20	and that can do much more than all
	the other experiences and prayers.

57:30	But you see, it is an easy way
	to escape through an illusion,

57:38	through a symbol,
	through an idea.

57:42	It is much more arduous,
	it demands a great deal of energy,

57:47	perception, and action

57:50	to see exactly what we are
	and go beyond it.

57:57	That means we have to become
	astonishingly aware

58:01	of all our activities
	and feelings and all that.

58:08	But we are unwilling
	to do all that.

58:11	We think through some easy prayer
	you can talk to God.

58:17	God is, after all,
	put together by thought –

58:26	the Christian God, the Hindu gods,

58:30	the Buddhists have no gods,

58:33	but they have their own images.

58:48	7th Question: If there is
	a supreme truth and order

58:52	why does it allow mankind to behave
	on earth in such a shocking way?

59:01	If there is a supreme
	truth and order

59:06	why does it allow mankind to behave
	on earth in such a shocking way?

59:19	If there is such a supreme entity,

59:23	they must be a very odd person

59:29	because if he created us,

59:36	then we are part of him.

59:40	And if he is order, sane,
	rational, compassionate,

59:46	we wouldn’t be like this.

59:53	Either you accept
	the evolutionary process of man,

59:59	or that man has suddenly
	come into being,

1:00:05	created by God.

1:00:08	And God, that supreme entity,
	is order, goodness,

1:00:17	compassion and all the rest of it,

1:00:20	all the attributes
	that we give to it.

1:00:25	So you have these two choices;

1:00:29	that there is a supreme entity

1:00:35	and made man according to his image,

1:00:39	or there is the evolutionary
	process of man,

1:00:46	which life has brought about

1:00:49	from the beginning
	of a small molecule,

1:00:51	cells and so on,
	right up to now.

1:00:55	If you accept the idea of God,
	the supreme person

1:01:04	in whom total order exists

1:01:07	and you are part of that entity,

1:01:12	then that person must be
	extraordinarily cruel,

1:01:21	extraordinarily intolerant

1:01:25	to make us behave as we are doing,

1:01:28	destroying each other.

1:01:34	Or, there is the other, which is
	man has made the world as it is,

1:01:44	the human beings
	have made this world:

1:01:49	the social world,
	the world of relationship,

1:01:54	the technological world,
	the world of society,

1:01:59	our relationship with each other,
	we have made it,

1:02:04	not God or some supreme entity.

1:02:07	We are responsible for this horror
	that we have perpetuated.

1:02:17	And to rely
	on a certain external agency

1:02:22	to transform all this –

1:02:25	this game has been
	played for millennia

1:02:33	and we are still the same.

1:02:35	I don’t know if you know all this.

1:02:37	Perhaps a little changed,
	a little more kind,

1:02:40	a little more tolerant
	– tolerance is something ugly.

1:02:54	So, to have order in ourselves,

1:02:58	then we are supreme gods

1:03:05	because the universe is order.

1:03:14	Sun sets, the sun rises,

1:03:17	the stars, the heavens, the nature,

1:03:22	this whole universe is order

1:03:26	– not according to us,
	it is order, explosion, destruction,

1:03:29	whatever is going on out there
	but it is order.

1:03:33	With us there is no order.

1:03:38	We live in confusion,
	we live in conflict,

1:03:40	we live in every kind of disorder.

1:03:46	Can there be in us
	total, complete order?

1:03:53	That order is not created by thought,

1:04:00	that order has no relationship
	whatsoever to any system, method,

1:04:08	which are all put together by thought.

1:04:13	Order comes only when there is
	complete ending of thought,

1:04:23	because then thought has no place
	as a divisive movement.

1:04:49	8th Question: I have been
	a member of a Gurdjeiff group

1:04:53	– from order to disorder!

1:04:58	I think this is right –

1:05:03	I have been a member
	of a Gurdjeiff group.

1:05:06	I find it has given me a background

1:05:09	to better understand
	what you are saying.

1:05:14	Should I continue in such a group

1:05:17	to possibly help others,
	as I was helped,

1:05:21	or does such a group
	make for fragmentation?

1:05:25	I have been a member of
	a Gurdjeiff group, or other groups,

1:05:30	I find it has given me a background

1:05:32	to better understand
	what you are saying.

1:05:35	Should I continue in such a group

1:05:40	to possibly help others,
	as I was helped,

1:05:45	or does such a group
	make for fragmentation?

1:05:50	It is an extraordinary idea
	of helping others,

1:05:59	as though you have got extraordinary
	comprehension, beauty, love, truth

1:06:06	and the whole world of order,

1:06:11	and that great immense
	sense of wholeness.

1:06:18	If you have that
	you don’t talk about helping others.

1:06:30	First of all, why do we want
	to belong to something?

1:06:39	Belong to some sect, some group,

1:06:45	some religious body,
	why?

1:06:54	Is it because it gives us strength?

1:07:01	It gives one great strength

1:07:04	if you are British
	and living in this country.

1:07:07	To feel that you are in Britain,

1:07:11	or in Russia
	or in China or in India.

1:07:19	Is it that we cannot stand alone?

1:07:28	The word ‘alone’ means all one.

1:07:37	Is it that we need encouragement,

1:07:44	we need somebody to tell us
	this is the right way?

1:07:54	And the questioner asks:

1:07:59	as I belong to certain groups,
	they have helped me to understand you

1:08:06	– understand what, me?

1:08:11	Do please look at it.

1:08:14	Understand what we are talking about?

1:08:18	Do we need interpreters to understand
	what we are talking about?

1:08:23	To be kind, to love,
	to have no sense of nationality.

1:08:28	Does it need anybody
	to tell you?

1:08:35	Why do we depend on others,

1:08:42	whether the others be
	the image in a church,

1:08:46	or in a temple or in a mosque,
	or the preacher, or the psychologist,

1:08:51	or anybody
	– why do we depend on others?

1:09:02	If we do depend on others
	psychologically

1:09:05	we become second-hand people,
	which we are.

1:09:16	The whole history of mankind
	is in us,

1:09:23	the whole story of mankind
	is not in books – there is...

1:09:29	but the whole history is here.

1:09:36	And we don’t know
	how to read that.

1:09:41	And if we could read it,

1:09:44	and to read it
	you are not the reader.

1:09:51	You understand?
	You are the book.

1:09:59	But when you read the book as a reader
	it has no meaning.

1:10:04	But if you are the book
	and the book is showing you,

1:10:09	telling you the story,

1:10:11	and you are not telling the story
	but the book is telling,

1:10:18	then you will not depend
	on a single person,

1:10:23	then one will be a light to oneself.

1:10:29	But we are all waiting
	for the match of another,

1:10:35	the fire of another.

1:10:38	And perhaps that is why
	you are all here.

1:10:45	And that is where the tragedy lies

1:10:53	because we cannot see
	clearly for ourselves.

1:10:58	And before we help others we have
	to see clearly, for God’s sake!

1:11:06	It is like the blind
	leading the blind.

1:11:12	Questioner:
	Mr. Krishnamurti I wanted to say;

1:11:15	you flower,
	and we see this flower,

1:11:19	but you also help year after year
	those who come again and again.

1:11:24	K: Sir, I am glad
	you come here year after year.

1:11:28	I would too.

1:11:33	Like going and seeing
	the mountain day after day.

1:11:38	There is great beauty
	in the mountain.

1:11:41	I am not saying
	I am the mountain.

1:11:44	There is great beauty
	in the mountain –

1:11:47	the skyline, the snow,
	the valleys,

1:11:52	the absolute quietness,

1:11:55	and the river flowing,
	rippling along, chattering.

1:12:02	There is great beauty in that,

1:12:06	and the lake that is so still
	and the ocean so...

1:12:13	I would go and see it every day.

1:12:15	The more I see it
	the more beauty there is in it.

1:12:22	Not one casual look of a weekend

1:12:28	but the constant looking, asking,

1:12:32	observing the truth
	and the beauty of it.

1:12:40	Naturally one must go, move.

1:12:49	9th Question: What is freedom?

1:12:51	This is the last question,
	thank God.

1:13:02	What is freedom?

1:13:10	Many philosophers

1:13:15	have written, talked, about freedom.

1:13:21	We talk about freedom –

1:13:26	freedom to live where we like,

1:13:29	freedom to have any job we like,

1:13:33	freedom to choose a woman or a man,

1:13:39	freedom to read any literature,

1:13:44	or freedom not to read at all.

1:13:49	We are free,

1:13:53	and so what do we do
	with that freedom?

1:14:01	We use that freedom
	to express ourselves,

1:14:05	to do what we like.

1:14:12	Whatever we like.

1:14:16	More and more
	it is becoming permissive –

1:14:21	you can have sex in the open garden.

1:14:34	You have every kind of freedom

1:14:37	and what have we done
	with that freedom?

1:14:47	We think where there is choice
	we have freedom.

1:14:54	I can go to Italy, to France,
	a choice –

1:15:01	only I would have to have
	a passport and a visa.

1:15:09	And does choice give freedom?

1:15:13	Please follow me.

1:15:17	Why do we have to choose?

1:15:23	If you are very clear

1:15:28	– clear, purely perceive, clear –

1:15:32	there is no choice.

1:15:35	Out of that comes right action.

1:15:40	It is only when there is doubt,
	uncertainty you begin to choose.

1:15:46	So choice, if you will forgive
	my saying so,

1:15:51	choice prevents freedom.

1:15:59	And the totalitarian states
	have no freedom at all.

1:16:08	Because they have the idea

1:16:10	that freedom brings about
	the degeneration of man,

1:16:15	therefore control, suppress –

1:16:18	you are following what is happening
	and all the rest of it.

1:16:23	So what is freedom?

1:16:26	Is it based on choice?

1:16:31	Is it to do exactly
	what we like?

1:16:36	Some of the psychologists
	are saying,

1:16:39	if you feel something
	do it immediately,

1:16:44	don’t suppress it, don’t restrain it,
	don’t control it; express.

1:16:50	And we are doing that very well, too.

1:16:53	And it is called also freedom.

1:16:58	Throwing bombs is also freedom.

1:17:04	Just look what we have
	reduced our freedom to.

1:17:09	So what is freedom?

1:17:20	Does freedom lie
	out there, or here?

1:17:27	I am just asking,
	I am not saying.

1:17:30	Where do you begin
	to search for freedom?

1:17:37	In the outward world,

1:17:45	which is to express and do,
	act whatever you like,

1:17:51	so-called individual freedom.

1:18:05	Or does freedom begin inwardly,

1:18:09	which then expresses itself
	intelligently outwardly?

1:18:15	You understand my question?

1:18:28	That is, freedom exists only
	when there is no confusion,

1:18:34	confusion inside me.

1:18:39	When I am seeking,
	perhaps psychologically, religiously,

1:18:46	not to be caught in any trap
	– you understand?

1:18:51	There are innumerable traps

1:18:56	– gurus, saviours, preachers,

1:19:01	the excellent books,
	psychologists, and psychiatrists,

1:19:05	they are all there.

1:19:15	And if I am confused
	and there is disorder,

1:19:21	mustn’t I first be
	free of that disorder

1:19:28	before I talk of freedom?

1:19:32	If I have no relationship with
	my wife, or with my husband,

1:19:38	with another person,

1:19:41	because we haven’t got relationship
	with another;

1:19:44	our relationship
	is based on images.

1:19:48	You have an image about me
	and I have an image about you.

1:19:54	And so the conflict which is
	inevitable where there is a division –

1:20:00	right, sirs?

1:20:03	So, shouldn’t I begin here,

1:20:06	inside me, in my skin,
	in my mind, in my heart

1:20:10	to be totally free
	of all the fears and anxieties,

1:20:15	despairs, hurts and wounds
	that one has received

1:20:21	through some psychic disorder?

1:20:24	All that, to watch it for oneself
	and be free of it.

1:20:31	But apparently
	we haven’t got the energy.

1:20:37	We go to another
	to give us energy.

1:20:41	The psychiatrists, by talking to him
	you feel much more relieved.

1:20:46	Confession and
	all the rest of it.

1:20:49	Always depending
	on somebody else.

1:20:58	And so that dependence inevitably

1:21:01	brings great conflict, disorder.

1:21:07	So one has to begin to understand

1:21:11	the depth and the greatness
	of freedom,

1:21:15	one must begin quite near.

1:21:19	And the nearest is you.

1:21:27	As long as there is you and me
	there is no freedom.

1:21:35	As long as you have your prejudice,
	and I have my prejudice,

1:21:40	your experience, my experience,
	etc. and so on,

1:21:44	there is no freedom.

1:21:46	We can express,

1:21:49	we can criticise each other,
	we can do all that,

1:21:52	that is what is called freedom.

1:21:54	The right to think
	what you like.

1:21:58	But real freedom, the greatness
	of freedom, and the enormity,

1:22:04	the dignity, the beauty of it
	is in oneself

1:22:08	when there is completely order.

1:22:15	And that order comes only
	when we are a light to ourselves.

1:22:22	Right, sir?

1:22:24	Finished.

1:22:32	May I go, please?

1:22:36	SUBTITLE TEXT COPYRIGHT 1980
	KRISHNAMURTI FOUNDATION TRUST LTD