Krishnamurti Subtitles

Brockwood Park - 4 September 1980

Public Question & Answer 2

0:31 This is the last day
of questions and answers.
0:35 On Saturday and Sunday
there will be a talk.
0:43 As we said the other day,
0:49 a question implies
0:53 that we are seeking an answer.
1:01 The answer is in the question,
1:04 not away from the question.
1:08 And in asking these questions
and finding their answer
1:16 we are together
investigating the question.
1:23 It is not that the speaker
talks or answers,
1:27 but together we are trying
to find the right answer.
1:33 It is not the answer
according to me or according to you,
1:37 but what is the right,
true answer to these questions.
1:45 I have been handed over nearly a
hundred and fifty questions, probably,
1:51 and we cannot possibly
answer all those
1:55 and I hope you won’t mind
if some of them are not answered.
1:59 It isn’t that we have chosen
something that suits us,
2:03 that can be answered by us,
2:05 but rather we have tried to find out
2:09 what are the most significant and
worthwhile questions to be answered.
2:20 1st Question:
What is the relationship
2:22 between thought and consciousness?
2:26 Why do we seem unable
to go beyond thought?
2:31 What is the relationship
between thought and consciousness,
2:36 and why do we seem unable
to go beyond thought?
2:46 Do we want to be serious
about all this?
2:51 All right, let’s be serious.
2:57 First of all, what is thinking,
what is thought,
3:09 and what is consciousness?
3:11 Are the two different?
3:17 When you say, what is the relationship
between thought and consciousness,
3:22 it implies, does it not,
that there are two different entities,
3:27 or two different movements.
3:30 And we are trying to find out,
the questioner tries to find out,
3:34 what is the relationship
between thought and consciousness.
3:40 So first of all we have to consider
together what is thought,
3:46 what is this whole
question of thinking
3:52 upon which all our conduct,
our activity,
3:57 political, religious,
economic, social
4:02 and all other factors of life,
are based on thought.
4:11 Thought is part of emotions,
sentiment, reactions,
4:20 the recognition of those
reactions and so on.
4:23 And what is consciousness?
4:27 When we use the word ‘consciousness’,
to be conscious of something,
4:34 to be aware of, to be able
to recognise, to understand,
4:42 to have a whole field
in which the mind is operating.
4:51 That is more or less
what we mean by consciousness.
4:55 And the questioner says:
4:57 what is the relationship
between the two?
5:00 So first we have to find out
what is thought
5:11 upon which
all our activities are based,
5:15 with all its images,
5:18 all the past remembrance
and future projections,
5:25 this enormous activity.
5:28 Technologically,
psychologically, physically,
5:32 almost in every direction,
thought is operating.
5:39 And our relationship with each other
is based on thought,
5:47 the thought which has created
the image about you and the other,
5:51 and the other about you.
5:55 Now what is that thought?
5:58 That thought surely is, is it not,
based on knowledge.
6:05 Experience, knowledge, memory.
6:13 And the reaction
of that memory is thinking.
6:18 So it is experience,
knowledge, memory
6:25 and the movement of thought,
6:28 which is a material process.
6:34 So, thought is always limited
because knowledge is always limited.
6:42 There is no complete knowledge
about anything
6:46 except the ending of knowledge,
that is quite a different matter.
6:53 So where there is
the operation of knowledge
6:56 and the movement of memory,
6:59 thought is limited, finite, definite.
7:12 And what part does thought
play in consciousness?
7:21 I hope we are together in this,
thinking together.
7:29 What is consciousness?
7:38 Our consciousness – all the knowledge
which we have accumulated,
7:45 all the experiences,
not only personal but collective,
7:52 memory, genetic responses,
7:58 the accumulated experience
of generations after generations,
8:06 all the travail, the trouble,
the anxiety, the fears,
8:10 the pleasures, the dogmas,
the beliefs, the attachments,
8:16 the pain of sorrow
and all that is our consciousness.
8:28 I think there is
no question about that,
8:32 no one would doubt that
or argue about it.
8:38 You can add or take away from it
8:42 but it is still the movement
of thought as consciousness.
8:48 One can say
that there is super consciousness
8:53 but it would still be
part of thought.
9:01 This consciousness
is in constant movement
9:08 and breaking up
the you and the me,
9:18 my nationality with all its
technological development
9:23 which is becoming a tremendous
danger in the world –
9:27 nationalism plus technology.
9:31 My religious beliefs, my dogmas,
9:34 my rituals, my wounds,
9:41 my beliefs, my ideals,
9:42 my constant struggle
to become something,
9:46 all that is part
of our consciousness,
9:50 not only the consciousness
of a particular person
9:54 but it is the consciousness
of mankind,
10:02 because mankind, wherever one lives,
goes through sorrow,
10:12 agony, doubt, despair,
10:17 depression, great uncertainty,
10:22 and so clinging to some image, belief,
10:26 all that is part of our being,
our consciousness.
10:34 So our consciousness
is its content.
10:40 I hope we are meeting each other.
10:43 Our consciousness is made up
of its content.
10:47 Without the content
what is our consciousness?
10:57 Is there a consciousness
totally different from that
11:03 which is made up of
the various activities of thought
11:08 which we call consciousness?
11:12 To come to that point
one has to find out
11:18 if thought can end,
11:21 not temporarily,
not between two thoughts,
11:27 there is a gap and a period of
silence or unconscious movement.
11:38 Can thought ever end?
11:42 This has been the problem
of most serious people
11:51 who have gone into this
very deeply through meditation
11:57 to end thought.
12:01 I hope we are following
each other in all this.
12:04 I am not talking to myself.
12:11 Can thought,
which is so enormously powerful,
12:17 which has got such a volume
of energy behind it,
12:25 that energy created
through millennia,
12:32 both in the scientific field,
economic, religious,
12:36 social, personal, all that activity,
12:40 can that come to an end?
12:48 Which means can those things
that thought has built
12:56 into our consciousness,
of which we are,
13:01 can that consciousness
with its content end?
13:11 Why do we want to end it?
13:16 What is the motive behind
this desire to end thought?
13:24 Is it that we have discovered
for ourselves
13:28 how thought creates enormous trouble,
13:34 a great deal of travail,
13:37 great anxiety of the future,
of the past, of the present,
13:42 the thought that brings about
13:44 a sense of utter isolation
and loneliness.
13:50 Can all that come to an end?
13:58 When one asks that question:
can it come to an end
14:01 are we seeking a method to end it?
14:08 A system of meditation?
14:11 A system which you practise
day after day so as to end thought?
14:18 If you practise day after day
to end thought,
14:22 that very practice
intensifies thought, naturally.
14:31 So what is one to do?
14:36 I hope we are meeting each other.
14:40 One realises the nature of thought,
14:44 its superficiality,
14:47 its intellectual game.
14:54 One knows all this,
14:57 how thought divides into nationalities
15:01 into religious beliefs and so on.
15:08 And conflict,
that is all we know,
15:13 perpetual conflict from the moment
we are born till we die.
15:23 Is that the reason
why we want to end thought?
15:29 So one has to be very clear,
if one may point out, the motive.
15:37 One must be very clear
why one wants to end thought –
15:42 if that is possible.
15:47 Because the motive
will dictate, will direct.
15:54 One can live in an illusion
15:58 that thought has come to an end
16:01 and many people do
16:04 but that illusion is merely
another projection of thought
16:08 which desires to end itself.
16:15 So realising the whole
complex problem of this,
16:20 thought and the things
that thought has built
16:28 as consciousness with its content,
16:31 can all that come to an end?
16:48 If the speaker says it can,
what value has it?
17:01 None whatever.
17:08 But if one realises
17:11 the nature of our consciousness
and the movement of thought
17:16 as a material process
17:21 and to observe it,
can we do this?
17:27 To observe the movement of thought,
17:32 not as an observer
different from thought –
17:38 are we following this,
can we go a little bit into this?
17:45 Can one observe
the movement of thought,
17:51 not as an observer
looking at thought,
17:56 but thought itself becoming aware
of its own movement.
18:14 The awakening of thought
18:19 and thought itself
observing its movement.
18:28 Can we do this?
18:37 Take a very simple example,
18:41 either greed or nationalism,
18:44 which are both the same:
18:51 to observe it
as it arises in one,
19:00 and then to discover for oneself,
19:04 is the observer, is the thinker
different from thought?
19:11 I hope you are following all this.
19:14 Am I making myself
somewhat clear?
19:21 I observe thinking,
that is fairly easy.
19:25 I separate myself as an observer
and watch my thinking,
19:32 which most of us do.
19:34 But this division is illusory,
is fallacious,
19:43 because the thinker is thought.
19:50 So, can the observer be absent
in his observation?
20:01 The observer, the thinker
is the past:
20:05 the remembrance, the images,
the knowledge, the experience,
20:11 all the things that he has accumulated
during that time, the past,
20:19 is the observer.
20:23 The observer names
a reaction as greed
20:30 and when he names it
he is already caught in the past.
20:34 I don’t know
if you are following all this?
20:37 Whereas to observe this reaction
without naming it.
20:50 This reaction which we call greed,
20:53 by the very naming of it
you have established it in the past.
21:01 It becomes the past.
21:03 Whereas if there is no naming
but pure observation
21:09 in which there is no division
as the observer and the observed,
21:13 the thinker and the thought,
the experiencer and the experience,
21:18 then what takes place?
21:22 You are following all this?
21:26 Are we coming along
together, somewhat?
21:32 You see, our conditioning is
21:40 this division between
the observer and the observed.
21:44 That is why we make
such enormous trouble
21:47 to control the thing
that is observed.
21:55 I am greedy,
that is the reaction.
21:58 I am different from greed
and therefore I can control it,
22:03 I can operate on it,
I can suppress it, I can enjoy it,
22:07 I can do something about it.
22:08 But the fact is,
the thinker is the thought.
22:15 There is no thinker
without thought.
22:22 So, to observe without
the past memories, reactions,
22:31 all that projecting itself
immediately in observation.
22:40 So to observe purely
22:46 without any direction,
without any motive,
22:54 then one will find
if one goes into it pretty deeply,
23:00 that thought does come to an end,
thought being time.
23:10 Thought is a movement
and so time is a movement,
23:14 so time is thought
23:19 – right, sir?
23:23 This is real meditation,
23:26 not all this stuff that goes on
in the name of meditation,
23:29 this is real meditation, which is:
to see the movement of thought,
23:34 for thought to see
its own movement, how it arises,
23:41 the creating of the image
and the pursuit of that image,
23:50 and to observe it
so that there is no recognition
23:54 of what is being observed.
23:56 You understand what I am saying?
24:01 That is, to make it very simple:
24:04 to observe a tree
without naming it,
24:13 without wondering
what use it can be put to,
24:21 just to observe it.
24:26 Then the division between the tree
and you comes to an end,
24:31 but you don’t become the tree
– I hope not.
24:37 The division
24:42 which the word creates,
24:48 the division, the physical, nervous,
neurological responses to that tree
24:56 creates the division.
25:02 That is, can I observe my wife
if I have one,
25:07 or my girl if I have one,
or another,
25:13 without the word
and so without the image,
25:21 without all the remembrance
in that relationship,
25:27 which is to observe purely?
25:33 Then in that observation,
which is complete attention,
25:40 has not thought come to an end?
25:49 This requires
a great deal of attention,
25:53 close, step by step watching,
25:58 like a good scientist
who watches very, very carefully.
26:08 When one does that
thought does come to an end,
26:12 therefore time has a stop.
26:18 Has this question been
sufficiently answered?
26:26 2nd Question: Does compassion spring
from observation, or thought?
26:39 Is not compassion
an emotional feeling?
26:43 Does compassion spring
from observation, or thought?
26:47 Is not compassion
an emotional feeling?
27:01 I don’t know how to answer this.
27:08 What is compassion?
27:11 Is it an emotion?
27:14 Is it something romantic?
27:18 Does it expend itself
in some kind of social work?
27:28 So one has to go into this.
27:30 To find out what is compassion,
one has to enquire what is love.
27:40 Then that means: is love desire?
27:46 Is love pleasure?
27:50 Please, sir, question yourselves.
27:55 And can there be love
where there is ambition?
28:04 Can there be love when one
is trying to become something,
28:13 not only in the outward world
but also psychologically,
28:19 this constant struggle to be
or to become something?
28:28 Can there be love?
28:31 Can there be love
when there is jealousy, violence,
28:40 when there is division
between you and me?
28:50 And can there be love
when we are nationalistic?
28:55 Please, sir, think about it.
29:01 You hear on the television
every evening; British, British.
29:08 The same thing in Italy,
the same thing in France,
29:13 in Russia, in India
– we and they.
29:21 When there is such
nationalistic, religious,
29:26 division of beliefs, images,
can there be love?
29:32 Go on, sir.
29:37 Of course there can be no love
when there is such division.
29:41 But all of us
are so heavily conditioned.
29:50 And we accept that condition
as normal.
29:57 A friend the other day said,
30:00 ‘I read about what you are
talking about conditioning.
30:03 Wouldn’t it be very dangerous
if I unconditioned myself
30:07 and drove on the right side
in England?’
30:19 So don’t uncondition
ourselves too much.
30:31 And what relationship
is love to sorrow?
30:40 I have lost my son
and I suffer enormously
30:48 because I loved him.
30:52 Can suffering and love go together?
30:56 Please, sir, please,
ask these questions.
31:01 Not only personal suffering
31:04 but the enormous suffering of mankind,
31:10 the suffering that wars
have brought about
31:14 and are still bringing about,
31:19 the suffering of people
living in the totalitarian states.
31:32 So, can there be love
when there is suffering?
31:44 Or only with the ending of suffering
31:47 there is this
passionate compassion.
31:58 After stating all this,
where are we?
32:06 Is love just an ideal?
32:12 Something which we don’t know
32:15 and therefore we want
to have that thing,
32:20 we want to have that extraordinary
sense of great compassion?
32:30 But we won’t pay the price for it.
32:37 We would like to have
the marvellous jewel
32:41 but we are unwilling
to either make a gesture,
32:49 or do something
that will bring it about.
32:54 If we want peace
one must live peacefully,
32:58 not divided into nations and wars
33:01 and all the hideousness
that is going on.
33:13 So what price do we pay for this?
33:17 Not coins,
not with coins and paper,
33:21 but inwardly how deeply
is this reality to come?
33:31 How deeply, profoundly
do we see nationalism,
33:36 all division must end
in myself as a human being?
33:42 Because we human beings,
you and I,
33:48 are like the rest of the world,
33:52 You may have a different colour,
short, tall, darker,
33:56 black, white and so on,
33:59 but inwardly psychologically
34:01 we are like the rest of mankind.
34:05 We all suffer,
we all go through agonies,
34:07 we all go through great fears,
uncertainties, confusion,
34:14 we are all caught in this
absurd religious nonsense.
34:23 We are that.
34:29 And can we see the totality of this,
34:35 not as an idea, not as something
longed for, but as a fact,
34:45 as a burning, actual, daily fact?
34:53 Then out of that perception
34:57 the responsibility of compassion comes
35:03 Compassion goes
with great intelligence.
35:15 That intelligence is not
the operation of knowledge.
35:23 Knowledge can solve many problems
– intellectual, technical and so on,
35:30 but intelligence is something
entirely different.
35:36 Please don’t accept what I am saying,
just look at it.
35:43 One may have read a great deal
35:50 and be capable of great arguments.
35:56 The mind can solve problems.
36:00 The problem-solving mind
is not an intelligent mind.
36:07 Intelligence comes
with compassion, with love.
36:17 And when that intelligence
is an action of compassion
36:24 it is global
not a particular action.
36:31 I hope we can go on
to the next question.
36:38 3rd Question: Why is it
that in the balance of nature
36:42 there is always
death and suffering?
36:46 Why is it
that in the balance of nature
36:50 there is always death and suffering?
36:58 Why is it man has killed
fifty million whales?
37:07 Do you understand what I am saying?
37:11 Fifty million.
37:14 And still Russia and Japan
are killing whales.
37:21 They are killing
every kind of species, man.
37:28 The tigers are coming to an end,
the cheetahs, the leopards
37:36 and the elephants,
for their tusks, for their flesh, etc.
37:43 Is not man a much more dangerous
animal than the rest of the animals?
37:50 And you want to know
37:53 why in nature
there is death and suffering.
38:03 You see a tiger
killing a cow, or a deer.
38:12 That is their natural way of life
38:17 but the moment we interfere with it,
it becomes real cruelty.
38:25 You have seen, I am quite sure,
38:28 baby seals being knocked on the head,
38:34 and when there is
a great protest against it,
38:37 the unions say
that we have to live that way.
38:40 You know all this.
38:46 So, where shall we start
38:50 to understand the world about us
38:54 and the world within us?
38:58 The world within us
is so enormously complex
39:04 but we want to understand
the world of nature first.
39:10 All that becomes our mania.
39:20 Perhaps if we could start
with ourselves –
39:29 not to hurt, not to be violent,
39:36 not to be nationalistic,
39:39 but to feel for the whole of mankind,
39:46 then perhaps we shall have
a proper relationship
39:49 between ourselves and nature.
39:53 Now we are destroying
the earth, the air,
39:56 the sea, the things of the sea,
40:03 because we are the greatest danger
to the world,
40:12 with our atomic bombs – you know
all that, what is happening.
40:21 4th Question: Why do you say
attachment is corruption?
40:27 Are we not attached
to those we love?
40:31 Why do you say
attachment is corruption?
40:35 Are we not attached
to those we love?
40:43 Does this need explanation?
40:49 When you are attached to an idea,
40:53 to a concept, to an ideal
as the Communists are,
40:58 or the Catholics, or the Protestants
or the Nationalists,
41:02 isn’t there the beginning
of corruption?
41:09 Corruption being,
to corrupt, to break up,
41:14 the meaning of that word
is to break up.
41:19 When I am a devout Marxist
41:29 and to me that is the only solution
to all our problems
41:36 and then I am unwilling to examine any
other questions, any other avenues,
41:46 I am committed,
I am tied.
41:55 When I am tied to a belief,
41:58 to a God, to an image, to a person,
42:02 is there not the beginning
of corruption?
42:06 Please, sir, it is not
what I am saying,
42:08 just look at it for yourselves.
42:11 Is attachment love?
42:17 When I am attached to you
as an audience, God forbid,
42:24 when I am attached to you
as an audience
42:28 I am exploiting you,
42:34 I am deriving great comfort,
I am fulfilling myself.
42:40 Is that not corruption?
42:44 When I am attached to my wife,
or to my friend, or whatever it is,
42:48 to a piece of furniture,
42:53 especially antique furniture –
43:00 somebody has put antique furniture
in the room I happen to live.
43:16 When I am attached to that piece
of furniture I become that furniture.
43:24 And then corruption begins,
I have to guard it,
43:26 I have to protect it
– fear.
43:31 Fear begins with attachment.
43:40 I may derive pleasure
in that attachment,
43:45 comfort, encouragement,
43:49 but in that there is always
the shadow of fear in it,
43:54 anxiety, jealousy,
44:00 and people like to be possessed
and to possess,
44:07 is that not corruption?
44:11 Because in that there is
an enormous sense of fear,
44:15 anxiety that I might lose it.
44:24 So, can one live in this world
44:29 without a single sense of attachment
44:35 to anything?
44:39 To your beliefs, dogmas, to God,
44:42 to various symbols,
ideologies and images,
44:47 wife, furniture, house,
experience – all that,
44:51 to be completely...
44:54 which doesn’t mean
that one becomes detached.
45:03 When there is an attempt
to be detached
45:10 then detachment
is part of attachment.
45:18 Because the opposite
has its roots in its own opposite.
45:25 Is that clear?
45:29 So to understand
the nature of attachment,
45:36 the consequences of it,
45:39 to see the whole
movement of attachment,
45:45 not just one particular attachment
to a person, to an idea,
45:51 to a piece of furniture,
45:53 but to have the comprehension,
the insight
45:58 into this whole
movement of attachment.
46:04 When you have an insight into it,
which I have gone into,
46:08 which we’ve explained the other day,
46:11 then attachment drops away
46:16 without any conflict.
46:21 Then perhaps one has love
46:26 because love and fear and jealousy
cannot go together.
46:43 5th Question:
You say we are the world
46:45 but the majority of the world seem
to be heading for mass destruction.
46:51 Can a minority of integrated people
outweigh the majority?
46:58 You say we are the world
47:01 but the majority of the world seems
to be heading for mass destruction.
47:08 Can a minority of integrated
people outweigh the majority?
47:13 Are you the minority?
47:20 No, I am not joking.
47:22 This is not a callous question.
47:28 Are we the minority?
47:33 Or, is there one amongst us
who is totally free of all this?
47:41 Or partially we are contributing
to the hatred of each other –
47:52 psychologically.
47:53 You may not be able to stop Russia
attacking Afghanistan
47:58 or some other country
– or America, or England,
48:02 or Japan,
or whatever country it is,
48:05 but psychologically
48:10 are we free
of our common inheritance,
48:16 which is our tribal
glorified nationalism?
48:26 Are we free from violence?
48:35 Violence exists where there is
a wall around ourselves.
48:41 Please understand all this.
48:47 And we have built ourselves walls,
ten feet high or fifteen feet thick.
48:56 We have all of us
have walls around us.
49:01 And from that arises violence,
49:06 this sense of immense loneliness.
49:14 So the minority
and the majority is you.
49:24 If a group of us fundamentally
49:31 have psychologically
transformed ourselves
49:37 you will never ask this question,
49:44 because we are then
something entirely different.
49:54 6th Question: Christian
mystics describe
49:56 certain forms of mental prayer
50:00 in which they speak to God,
or what they call God.
50:07 They say that in such prayer
something tremendous happens
50:12 which they call union with God.
50:15 They are convinced
this is not an illusion.
50:20 Are they deceiving themselves?
50:25 Then, what is faith?
50:28 It appears to give people
the power to do extraordinary things.
50:38 Christian mystics describe
certain forms of mental prayer
50:43 in which they speak to God,
or what they call God.
50:50 They say that in such prayer
something tremendous may happen
50:55 which they call union with God.
50:58 They are convinced
this is not an illusion.
51:02 Are they deceiving themselves?
51:04 And, what is faith?
51:06 It appears to give people
the power to do extraordinary things.
51:15 When you are
tremendously national
51:19 it gives you extraordinary
powers to kill others.
51:27 Look what they are doing.
51:39 So, can an illusion really
give you enormous vitality,
51:49 enormous strength
to do extraordinary things?
51:52 Apparently it does.
51:57 The Christian missionaries,
52:02 what they have done in the world
52:04 because they believe in something.
52:07 That belief may be totally unreal,
52:12 the image which the mind has created,
52:15 they believe in that
and they are attached to that,
52:20 and they want to convert all
the others of the world to that.
52:28 And they’ll put up
with extraordinary discomforts,
52:31 with disease,
and every kind of trouble.
52:39 And those mystics
52:42 who talk to God through prayer –
52:49 I don’t know what God is,
52:55 nobody knows.
53:01 But to have an image
that there is a supreme entity
53:08 and through prayer,
through faith,
53:14 through dedication,
through devotion,
53:19 you can achieve mountains.
53:26 Because, sir, if you look,
53:31 what America and Russia
and England and France are doing.
53:41 They have tremendous faith
in their country,
53:45 in their nationalism,
53:48 and they are building
an enormous technological world
53:52 to destroy the others who are
also doing exactly the same thing.
54:02 To go to the moon,
what enormous energy it needed,
54:08 what technological capacity, faith,
54:14 the American first on the moon
with their flag.
54:21 Or the British with their flag
– it is equally the same.
54:32 And in the Christian world
54:38 they place faith first and not doubt.
54:46 Faith has taken the place of doubt.
54:52 Doubt is very cleansing,
purifies the mind.
54:59 If you doubt your experiences,
your opinions, etc.,
55:07 if you doubt them,
55:10 you are free,
you can observe clearly then.
55:16 If you doubt your gods, your saviours,
everything that comes along.
55:24 In the Eastern world,
like Buddhism and Hinduism,
55:28 doubt is one of the major factors,
55:30 it is demanded that you must doubt,
you must question,
55:37 you must not accept –
55:41 be a light to yourself
55:46 and that light cannot be
given to you by anyone.
55:55 Of course now in India and Asia
it has all gone to pieces,
56:00 they are just like anybody else,
they are becoming merchants.
56:12 But to have great strength
– it doesn’t come through prayer,
56:19 it doesn’t come through
illusions, or faith,
56:24 it comes through clarity,
56:31 when the mind can see clearly,
56:40 and that clarity
doesn’t come and go.
56:45 When you see something
clearly like nationalism
56:48 it is the most destructive
thing in the world,
56:52 then you are finished with it.
56:57 And the ending of that burden
57:02 gives you vitality, energy, strength.
57:07 Similarly, if one is totally
free of all attachments
57:15 it gives you the strength of love,
57:20 and that can do much more than all
the other experiences and prayers.
57:30 But you see, it is an easy way
to escape through an illusion,
57:38 through a symbol,
through an idea.
57:42 It is much more arduous,
it demands a great deal of energy,
57:47 perception, and action
57:50 to see exactly what we are
and go beyond it.
57:57 That means we have to become
astonishingly aware
58:01 of all our activities
and feelings and all that.
58:08 But we are unwilling
to do all that.
58:11 We think through some easy prayer
you can talk to God.
58:17 God is, after all,
put together by thought –
58:26 the Christian God, the Hindu gods,
58:30 the Buddhists have no gods,
58:33 but they have their own images.
58:48 7th Question: If there is
a supreme truth and order
58:52 why does it allow mankind to behave
on earth in such a shocking way?
59:01 If there is a supreme
truth and order
59:06 why does it allow mankind to behave
on earth in such a shocking way?
59:19 If there is such a supreme entity,
59:23 they must be a very odd person
59:29 because if he created us,
59:36 then we are part of him.
59:40 And if he is order, sane,
rational, compassionate,
59:46 we wouldn’t be like this.
59:53 Either you accept
the evolutionary process of man,
59:59 or that man has suddenly
come into being,
1:00:05 created by God.
1:00:08 And God, that supreme entity,
is order, goodness,
1:00:17 compassion and all the rest of it,
1:00:20 all the attributes
that we give to it.
1:00:25 So you have these two choices;
1:00:29 that there is a supreme entity
1:00:35 and made man according to his image,
1:00:39 or there is the evolutionary
process of man,
1:00:46 which life has brought about
1:00:49 from the beginning
of a small molecule,
1:00:51 cells and so on,
right up to now.
1:00:55 If you accept the idea of God,
the supreme person
1:01:04 in whom total order exists
1:01:07 and you are part of that entity,
1:01:12 then that person must be
extraordinarily cruel,
1:01:21 extraordinarily intolerant
1:01:25 to make us behave as we are doing,
1:01:28 destroying each other.
1:01:34 Or, there is the other, which is
man has made the world as it is,
1:01:44 the human beings
have made this world:
1:01:49 the social world,
the world of relationship,
1:01:54 the technological world,
the world of society,
1:01:59 our relationship with each other,
we have made it,
1:02:04 not God or some supreme entity.
1:02:07 We are responsible for this horror
that we have perpetuated.
1:02:17 And to rely
on a certain external agency
1:02:22 to transform all this –
1:02:25 this game has been
played for millennia
1:02:33 and we are still the same.
1:02:35 I don’t know if you know all this.
1:02:37 Perhaps a little changed,
a little more kind,
1:02:40 a little more tolerant
– tolerance is something ugly.
1:02:54 So, to have order in ourselves,
1:02:58 then we are supreme gods
1:03:05 because the universe is order.
1:03:14 Sun sets, the sun rises,
1:03:17 the stars, the heavens, the nature,
1:03:22 this whole universe is order
1:03:26 – not according to us,
it is order, explosion, destruction,
1:03:29 whatever is going on out there
but it is order.
1:03:33 With us there is no order.
1:03:38 We live in confusion,
we live in conflict,
1:03:40 we live in every kind of disorder.
1:03:46 Can there be in us
total, complete order?
1:03:53 That order is not created by thought,
1:04:00 that order has no relationship
whatsoever to any system, method,
1:04:08 which are all put together by thought.
1:04:13 Order comes only when there is
complete ending of thought,
1:04:23 because then thought has no place
as a divisive movement.
1:04:49 8th Question: I have been
a member of a Gurdjeiff group
1:04:53 – from order to disorder!
1:04:58 I think this is right –
1:05:03 I have been a member
of a Gurdjeiff group.
1:05:06 I find it has given me a background
1:05:09 to better understand
what you are saying.
1:05:14 Should I continue in such a group
1:05:17 to possibly help others,
as I was helped,
1:05:21 or does such a group
make for fragmentation?
1:05:25 I have been a member of
a Gurdjeiff group, or other groups,
1:05:30 I find it has given me a background
1:05:32 to better understand
what you are saying.
1:05:35 Should I continue in such a group
1:05:40 to possibly help others,
as I was helped,
1:05:45 or does such a group
make for fragmentation?
1:05:50 It is an extraordinary idea
of helping others,
1:05:59 as though you have got extraordinary
comprehension, beauty, love, truth
1:06:06 and the whole world of order,
1:06:11 and that great immense
sense of wholeness.
1:06:18 If you have that
you don’t talk about helping others.
1:06:30 First of all, why do we want
to belong to something?
1:06:39 Belong to some sect, some group,
1:06:45 some religious body,
1:06:54 Is it because it gives us strength?
1:07:01 It gives one great strength
1:07:04 if you are British
and living in this country.
1:07:07 To feel that you are in Britain,
1:07:11 or in Russia
or in China or in India.
1:07:19 Is it that we cannot stand alone?
1:07:28 The word ‘alone’ means all one.
1:07:37 Is it that we need encouragement,
1:07:44 we need somebody to tell us
this is the right way?
1:07:54 And the questioner asks:
1:07:59 as I belong to certain groups,
they have helped me to understand you
1:08:06 – understand what, me?
1:08:11 Do please look at it.
1:08:14 Understand what we are talking about?
1:08:18 Do we need interpreters to understand
what we are talking about?
1:08:23 To be kind, to love,
to have no sense of nationality.
1:08:28 Does it need anybody
to tell you?
1:08:35 Why do we depend on others,
1:08:42 whether the others be
the image in a church,
1:08:46 or in a temple or in a mosque,
or the preacher, or the psychologist,
1:08:51 or anybody
– why do we depend on others?
1:09:02 If we do depend on others
1:09:05 we become second-hand people,
which we are.
1:09:16 The whole history of mankind
is in us,
1:09:23 the whole story of mankind
is not in books – there is...
1:09:29 but the whole history is here.
1:09:36 And we don’t know
how to read that.
1:09:41 And if we could read it,
1:09:44 and to read it
you are not the reader.
1:09:51 You understand?
You are the book.
1:09:59 But when you read the book as a reader
it has no meaning.
1:10:04 But if you are the book
and the book is showing you,
1:10:09 telling you the story,
1:10:11 and you are not telling the story
but the book is telling,
1:10:18 then you will not depend
on a single person,
1:10:23 then one will be a light to oneself.
1:10:29 But we are all waiting
for the match of another,
1:10:35 the fire of another.
1:10:38 And perhaps that is why
you are all here.
1:10:45 And that is where the tragedy lies
1:10:53 because we cannot see
clearly for ourselves.
1:10:58 And before we help others we have
to see clearly, for God’s sake!
1:11:06 It is like the blind
leading the blind.
1:11:12 Questioner:
Mr. Krishnamurti I wanted to say;
1:11:15 you flower,
and we see this flower,
1:11:19 but you also help year after year
those who come again and again.
1:11:24 K: Sir, I am glad
you come here year after year.
1:11:28 I would too.
1:11:33 Like going and seeing
the mountain day after day.
1:11:38 There is great beauty
in the mountain.
1:11:41 I am not saying
I am the mountain.
1:11:44 There is great beauty
in the mountain –
1:11:47 the skyline, the snow,
the valleys,
1:11:52 the absolute quietness,
1:11:55 and the river flowing,
rippling along, chattering.
1:12:02 There is great beauty in that,
1:12:06 and the lake that is so still
and the ocean so...
1:12:13 I would go and see it every day.
1:12:15 The more I see it
the more beauty there is in it.
1:12:22 Not one casual look of a weekend
1:12:28 but the constant looking, asking,
1:12:32 observing the truth
and the beauty of it.
1:12:40 Naturally one must go, move.
1:12:49 9th Question: What is freedom?
1:12:51 This is the last question,
thank God.
1:13:02 What is freedom?
1:13:10 Many philosophers
1:13:15 have written, talked, about freedom.
1:13:21 We talk about freedom –
1:13:26 freedom to live where we like,
1:13:29 freedom to have any job we like,
1:13:33 freedom to choose a woman or a man,
1:13:39 freedom to read any literature,
1:13:44 or freedom not to read at all.
1:13:49 We are free,
1:13:53 and so what do we do
with that freedom?
1:14:01 We use that freedom
to express ourselves,
1:14:05 to do what we like.
1:14:12 Whatever we like.
1:14:16 More and more
it is becoming permissive –
1:14:21 you can have sex in the open garden.
1:14:34 You have every kind of freedom
1:14:37 and what have we done
with that freedom?
1:14:47 We think where there is choice
we have freedom.
1:14:54 I can go to Italy, to France,
a choice –
1:15:01 only I would have to have
a passport and a visa.
1:15:09 And does choice give freedom?
1:15:13 Please follow me.
1:15:17 Why do we have to choose?
1:15:23 If you are very clear
1:15:28 – clear, purely perceive, clear –
1:15:32 there is no choice.
1:15:35 Out of that comes right action.
1:15:40 It is only when there is doubt,
uncertainty you begin to choose.
1:15:46 So choice, if you will forgive
my saying so,
1:15:51 choice prevents freedom.
1:15:59 And the totalitarian states
have no freedom at all.
1:16:08 Because they have the idea
1:16:10 that freedom brings about
the degeneration of man,
1:16:15 therefore control, suppress –
1:16:18 you are following what is happening
and all the rest of it.
1:16:23 So what is freedom?
1:16:26 Is it based on choice?
1:16:31 Is it to do exactly
what we like?
1:16:36 Some of the psychologists
are saying,
1:16:39 if you feel something
do it immediately,
1:16:44 don’t suppress it, don’t restrain it,
don’t control it; express.
1:16:50 And we are doing that very well, too.
1:16:53 And it is called also freedom.
1:16:58 Throwing bombs is also freedom.
1:17:04 Just look what we have
reduced our freedom to.
1:17:09 So what is freedom?
1:17:20 Does freedom lie
out there, or here?
1:17:27 I am just asking,
I am not saying.
1:17:30 Where do you begin
to search for freedom?
1:17:37 In the outward world,
1:17:45 which is to express and do,
act whatever you like,
1:17:51 so-called individual freedom.
1:18:05 Or does freedom begin inwardly,
1:18:09 which then expresses itself
intelligently outwardly?
1:18:15 You understand my question?
1:18:28 That is, freedom exists only
when there is no confusion,
1:18:34 confusion inside me.
1:18:39 When I am seeking,
perhaps psychologically, religiously,
1:18:46 not to be caught in any trap
– you understand?
1:18:51 There are innumerable traps
1:18:56 – gurus, saviours, preachers,
1:19:01 the excellent books,
psychologists, and psychiatrists,
1:19:05 they are all there.
1:19:15 And if I am confused
and there is disorder,
1:19:21 mustn’t I first be
free of that disorder
1:19:28 before I talk of freedom?
1:19:32 If I have no relationship with
my wife, or with my husband,
1:19:38 with another person,
1:19:41 because we haven’t got relationship
with another;
1:19:44 our relationship
is based on images.
1:19:48 You have an image about me
and I have an image about you.
1:19:54 And so the conflict which is
inevitable where there is a division –
1:20:00 right, sirs?
1:20:03 So, shouldn’t I begin here,
1:20:06 inside me, in my skin,
in my mind, in my heart
1:20:10 to be totally free
of all the fears and anxieties,
1:20:15 despairs, hurts and wounds
that one has received
1:20:21 through some psychic disorder?
1:20:24 All that, to watch it for oneself
and be free of it.
1:20:31 But apparently
we haven’t got the energy.
1:20:37 We go to another
to give us energy.
1:20:41 The psychiatrists, by talking to him
you feel much more relieved.
1:20:46 Confession and
all the rest of it.
1:20:49 Always depending
on somebody else.
1:20:58 And so that dependence inevitably
1:21:01 brings great conflict, disorder.
1:21:07 So one has to begin to understand
1:21:11 the depth and the greatness
of freedom,
1:21:15 one must begin quite near.
1:21:19 And the nearest is you.
1:21:27 As long as there is you and me
there is no freedom.
1:21:35 As long as you have your prejudice,
and I have my prejudice,
1:21:40 your experience, my experience,
etc. and so on,
1:21:44 there is no freedom.
1:21:46 We can express,
1:21:49 we can criticise each other,
we can do all that,
1:21:52 that is what is called freedom.
1:21:54 The right to think
what you like.
1:21:58 But real freedom, the greatness
of freedom, and the enormity,
1:22:04 the dignity, the beauty of it
is in oneself
1:22:08 when there is completely order.
1:22:15 And that order comes only
when we are a light to ourselves.
1:22:22 Right, sir?
1:22:24 Finished.
1:22:32 May I go, please?