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BR81DSS3 - Why haven't we been able to resolve our problems?
Brockwood Park, UK - 21 June 1981
Discussion with Staff and Students 3



0:19 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:34 No suggestions? Questioner: Could we talk about the self-image, sir?
0:50 K: Talk about self-image. Perhaps we could include that in what I was going to talk about.
1:07 Which is, we have intellectual and psychological problems.
1:17 A problem being that which has… for which no solution has yet been found. You may find it later, but a problem implies something that has to be resolved.
1:35 If you have intellectual problems, like mathematics and geometry, or going to the moon and so on, they are fairly, comparatively easy.
1:49 You apply your mind, your education, your knowledge and resolve those problems.
2:01 They’re more or less mechanical problems, if we can use that word without any sense of derogatory implications in it.
2:14 If you have business problems, you can solve them – you may take time, depending on your experience, knowledge.
2:28 And if I have scientific problems, it’s the same thing. And we have psychological problems, of fear, of sorrow, pain, relationship with each other, and all the complexities of daily living, which is not only the intellectual business, living problems outwardly, but also inwardly problems exist.
3:06 Our brains are trained to solve problems.
3:14 I don’t know if you have noticed it. Right? If you have a mathematical problem, you have capacity, energy and knowledge to solve all mechanical problems.
3:33 Even scientific problems, if you have them, you take time, experience, knowledge, accumulation – if have a partial insight into it, you resolve those problems.
3:49 So our brains have been educated for thousands of years to solve problems. Right?
4:04 And we have psychological problems.
4:14 We have had those problems probably since the beginning of man, and we haven’t been able to solve them.
4:26 Why? We can solve mechanical, theoretical, hypothetical problems – how to put a new computer, a new engine and so on – those we can solve given some insight and certain experience which brings capacity.
5:09 And the other problems, psychologically, the inward problems which are much more complex, which need a great deal of inquiry, observation, understanding, watching, awareness, and apparently we haven’t solved those.
5:39 Right? We are more or less what we were ten thousand or a million years ago – constant battle, conflict with each other, not only in our personal relationship with each other, but also as a community opposed to another community, one society opposed to another society, one culture opposed to another culture, one religion opposed essentially to another and so on.
6:20 One asks oneself – and I hope you are going to ask yourself too, with it, with me – why is it human beings haven’t been able to resolve these problems, inward problems?
6:35 Why do we go on with them, why do we tolerate them?
6:45 Is it habit? Is it a sense of utter confusion inwardly, not knowing what to do?
7:00 Not knowing what to do with ourselves as we are, we turn to others – the priests, the psychologists, the specialists, the gurus, the priest, and so on and so on.
7:18 And those people too have not helped to solve these psychological problems.
7:26 They have postponed it. Most religions have. They say you cannot solve these problems, only these problems can be solved in heaven, or if you follow a certain saviour or a certain guru, certain this or that.
7:45 But even then conflict exists.
7:54 So can conflict ever end? Or is it our lot as human beings to live with conflict, thinking that conflict, struggle, is in the line of progress?
8:18 You say, Like everything is in conflict with the other in nature, and so perhaps in ourselves – that’s a part of the program of existence.
8:37 When one begins to question it, doubt it, ask why, is it at all possible to live a life without conflict, psychologically?
8:55 And then if there is a psychological state of mind in which there is no problem, how will that affect society in which we live, and so on?
9:13 Can we discuss that a little bit? Let me talk first and then you can have a dialogue about it.
9:26 It will be fun – we could have a good dialogue, not just let me talk endlessly and you just listen but together let us explore these questions, and then together you and the speaker have a good dialogue.
9:55 It’s not a question... You can say what you like, however rude you are, however demanding, disrespectful – none of those matter – but have a good dialogue. Right?
10:28 Is there a solution to all our psychological problems?
10:37 Which obviously affect the outer problems.
10:45 I think one must be clear on that point. Man has tried various systems, including the communist system, in trying to alter the environment, so-called society, hoping thereby to change man, to change his way of thinking, his feelings, his competitiveness, his aggressiveness, his brutality, and so on.
11:21 Various, throughout history – I am not a historian but I have talked to a great many historians, watched – they have all said man has tried almost everything outwardly to change the inward nature of man – frighten him, threaten him with hellfire, and in the Asiatic world, various forms of past karma, if I may use that word, if you understand that word.
11:59 That word means, actually, ‘action’ – karma.
12:09 And apparently every effort has been made to change the nature of man, the condition of man, and they have not succeeded.
12:28 And we have accepted that condition, rationalised it and so on.
12:41 Now we are going to investigate together if it is possible to totally understand the nature of this conflict and end it.
12:58 The speaker says there is an end to that, but you don’t have to believe it. On the contrary, you must doubt it, you must question it.
13:11 But in questioning, in doubting, observe your own conflict psychologically, whatever that conflict be, and watch it so that you not only discover the root of that, the source of that conflict, the cause, but also the consequences of that conflict.
13:58 That is, can you observe your conflict?
14:10 I am using the word ‘conflict’ to include contradiction in oneself – the opposing demands, the opposing reactions, opposing desires, and so on.
14:30 To watch, to be aware of all that and inquire what is the cause of it, and follow as you would follow a stream, follow its movement and its action in the world.
14:56 Right? You understood my question? That is, to know your conflict, be aware of it, conscious of it, and the very…
15:18 when one is conscious of it one begins to discover the root of it, without analysis.
15:33 Right? Are you doing this as we are talking? And follow its activity outwardly, in action.
15:51 Right? That is, take your own particular problem, psychological problem, and don’t try to find an answer for it, don’t try to resolve it, don’t try to suppress it or escape from it, just watch the problem, stay with it completely and see the cause of it as it comes out, and follow the sequence, consequences of it in action.
16:39 You’ve understood this?
16:46 All right. Suppose I have a problem with my wife or with my girl, whatever it is, emotional, psychological problem.
17:03 First, I am conscious when there is a problem, a conflict.
17:11 The instinctive reaction is to resolve it, to say, ‘I must solve it’, or escape from it or suppress it altogether by identifying myself with something totally different.
17:39 Right? You understand? That’s what one does, generally. The reaction, the fear involved in the resolution of that problem, and watching it I see all the implications that are involved in that problem, not being able to resolve it, saying to myself, I cannot solve it, it’s too complex, too difficult, I don’t know what to do with it, and so I let it remain and move away from it.
18:25 Or I go to somebody to help me to resolve that problem.
18:32 I want to talk it over with a friend or with a psychologist or with somebody or other, and in the very talking of it with another, I’m escaping from it.
18:53 Right? Am I aware of all this? That I am escaping, and so the escape becomes far more important than the problem.
19:16 The flight to something becomes much more important than the problem itself.
19:25 Are you following all this? Or I don’t know what to do with it.
19:37 My intellect cannot grapple with it. I can argue, I can discuss, I can go into it, but somehow I feel it cannot be resolved.
19:50 I haven’t got the sufficient energy, sufficient capacity, and so I come to you the specialist, psychologist, whatever you are, and I say, Please, this is my problem, let’s talk it over, help me.
20:10 In that movement of demanding help from another, it’s not only an escape, but I begin to rely on another for my solutions.
20:29 So the priest comes along, or the psychologist comes along, or the specialist comes along, and willing to play that game Am I aware of all this?
20:47 I have a problem. I have seen what you have said to me, I realise the truth of it, the actuality of your statement that it’s no good escaping from it.
21:07 And you also point out there are many ways of escape, not just going to a psychologist and so on, but there are other ways – talking about it endlessly, worrying about it, analysing about it, or I say to myself, ‘I will be very quiet with it’.
22:02 Or, having done all this, somehow it still remains, I say, ‘I can’t do it’?
22:11 so I accept it, tolerate it, the conflict, and so for the rest of my life till I die, I live with it.
22:25 And you come along and tell me, you say, Look, there is a totally different way of dealing with this problem, with problems, psychological problems.
22:42 I listen to you, what you have to say, and I listen with a sense of resistance, with a great deal of scepticism, which is natural, a great sense of, Who are you to tell me?
23:10 Have you solved your problems?
23:19 So I resist what you’re saying. What you say may be true, but I am questioning you, not listening to what you are saying.
23:36 I wonder if you follow all this. Right?
23:45 So, a person like me, X, comes along and says, Look, there is a totally different way of dealing with psychological problems.
24:00 Now, will you listen to it or resist what is being said?
24:15 And resistance has many forms.
24:22 Resistance is a form of self-defence.
24:31 I have lived with this problem for a decade, since I was born, and you come along and say there is a totally different way of dealing with problems.
24:44 Am I willing actually to listen to you?
24:55 And am I really saying, ‘If the problem’s over, what am I to do?’ You understand?
25:07 You understand my question? If all my problems are resolved, what have I left?
25:17 You follow? That’s another form of defence, which is, a resistance.
25:27 Or you are only too willing to listen and not do anything about it.
25:37 So, knowing all this, realising all this, will you listen to what the speaker, X, has to say?
25:49 Listen. Will you? That is, no resistance, no sense of acceptance, with sharp clarity of scepticism.
26:18 Will you so listen?
26:42 And also he says, when you listen you are not only to understand the meaning of the English words he is using, if you are both speaking English, and be very watchful that the word doesn’t create the problem.
27:14 You understand? Is this clear?
27:21 Because for us words are extraordinarily important.
27:31 We live with words. We communicate with words. A word like ‘communism’ is a frightening word for many people – socialism and so on.
27:44 So one has to be very watchful that the word…
27:51 knowing the word is not the thing and the word doesn’t create the problem.
28:00 Right? Are we together in this so far?
28:07 Right. Which means will you... This is what he’s saying. Listen to what X is saying to you, listen with attention and, as you have tried every means of resolving a problem, don’t do any of that.
28:36 Remain completely with the problem.
28:48 You understand? Which means, don’t let any other movement than the problem itself.
29:03 Am I making this clear? I have problem with my… I am jealous. That’s my problem. I am eaten up with jealousy. Sorry, I’m not, but suppose I am eaten up with jealousy because everybody is so prominent, good looking, blah, blah, all the rest of it. I am so envious.
29:36 And so there’s a battle going on, wanting all that, perhaps not capable of it, and so through envy I build up conflict.
29:50 Envy is conflict. Envy is a measurement between what I am and what I want to be.
30:05 So I have tried every other way, every way to get rid of this burden, this torture – psychologists, priests, all rest of it – and you come along and tell me, Look, don’t do any of those things, but without any movement of thought, of escape, just remain with that jealousy, envy.
30:41 Without any movement, remain with that. Then you say, ‘What do you mean by not moving?’ Which is, don’t rationalise it, don’t try to escape from it, don’t try to find an answer for it, don’t do any of those activities to which you have been accustomed, but hold it, just watch it.
31:22 Right? Are you doing this with me?
31:29 Then watch it, hold it. Now...
31:42 – we’ll have a time for a dialogue? Yes.
31:52 Now you say, ‘Hold it’. Now, are you watching that envy, that problem, as though it was separate from you?
32:06 Go into it carefully, step by step.
32:13 I have a problem of envy. Am I looking, when you tell me to hold it, to remain with it, to not move away from it in any direction, then am I observing envy as though it were something separate from the watcher?
32:38 Right? Am I doing that? And you tell me, Look, the watcher is envy.
32:52 The watcher is not different from envy. You understand? Like anger is not different from you. You are anger.
33:09 So that there is no division between that which you are looking, observing, holding, and the entity that says, ‘I am watching’.
33:24 The watcher is the watched. Right? Do you see this?
33:47 Let’s look at it differently.
33:55 Anger, jealousy, envy, fear and so on is part of me, it’s part of my make-up, it’s part of my – if you will forgive me using it – consciousness.
34:15 It’s part of my whole being. It’s part of my existence.
34:23 But I have separated myself, the entity that says, ‘I am going to look’.
34:32 I have separated myself. You follow? ‘I am different from anger’. So I control anger, I want to get rid of anger.
34:50 Whereas anger is part of you, part of the entity who says, ‘I must get rid of anger’.
35:01 Are you following all this? So are you clear on this matter, that the watcher, the thinker is the thought?
35:22 There is no thinker separate from thought. Right? There is no experiencer separate from experience.
35:40 If you can really understand this, it’ll solve a tremendous lot of problems.
35:54 Look, the problems exist when you are Arab and I am a Hindu – or some other nationality.
36:11 Which means problems exist, conflict exists when there is division – political division, economic division, social division, division of belief, ideals.
36:29 Wherever there is psychological and physical division, in this sense, there must be conflict. That is inevitable.
36:38 That’s a law. Right? Now, that same state exists in us – I am different from that which I am watching. Right?
36:55 We have been educated in that. We have been educated to control that which you are watching, that from which you are escaping, that from which you want to deny, and so on.
37:15 So we have been conditioned, educated through millennia to be in this state of division in ourselves, and so conflict continues.
37:36 But when you observe actually that the thinker, the experiencer, the watcher is the watched, is the thought, is the experiencer. You are fear.
37:51 Now, having heard that, remain with fear. Remain with envy, as we took up that, as we had that example.
38:03 Remain with it. Which means the watcher, the man that says, ‘I will hold it’, he is not separate from that problem.
38:19 He is the problem. Do you get it? The problem is not separate from him.
38:35 That’s a fact. That’s logical, sane and actual.
38:43 The other is illusory, to say, ‘I am different from that’.
38:51 Right? So can you so completely, attentively, remain with that problem, with that conflict?
39:15 And when you do, what is happening? All your attention is there. Right? You’re not dissipating your energy in different directions. All your attention, your energy is completely involved, or rather, let me put it differently – all your attention is brought to that.
39:50 And when you attend to something completely the thing is not. Right?
39:57 Now, let’s have a dialogue. Just a...
40:03 Q: Krishnaji, may one ask, it is probably a pretention to something to say envy or jealousy.
40:13 K: Would you speak a little louder? It’s rather difficult to hear.
40:15 Q: Yes. When you feel envy or jealousy and you are looking at that completely, you are feeling that feeling, are you not?
40:27 You are feeling the pain, whatever it is, you are feeling that emotion. You’re not looking at an abstraction, a word, you’re feeling at that moment the feeling of envy or jealousy or fear or whatever it is. Is that correct?
40:41 K: Yes.

Q: Yes. Well, when one does that, the mind immediately starts saying, ‘I want this, I don’t want that, I am suffering, I am...’ (inaudible)

K: That’s what I...
40:53 that’s what the speaker has been saying.
40:55 Q: Yes. Now, is that immediate response of the mind to the emotion, is that inattention? Is that off the subject?
41:06 K: Yes, that’s all inattention.
41:08 Q: Well, what…

K: Now, go slowly, please.
41:11 Q: The moment the mind talks about what it feels is inattention.
41:17 K: Of course. You have moved away from it.
41:20 Q: Well then what is… you just simply feel the emotion and allow no...
41:26 K: No, you are too… you are saying too many things. Now, what is it you’re asking?
41:31 Q: Well, I am asking, what is looking at these things? Because these are very emotional things. Now, presumably one doesn’t look at an abstraction of that; one feels it at that moment.
41:45 But if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that any thought about that feeling or arising out of that feeling – if it’s envy, you envy something.
41:56 K: Now, just a minute. I understood your question. Is your emotion different from thought?
42:13 That is, your response, your emotional reaction, is that different from thought?
42:28 If there was no thought, would you recognise the emotion, the sensation?
42:39 Q: They’re obviously the same, but...
42:41 K: No, no, go slowly, please. If you don’t mind, I’d like to go into this a little bit. We are all psychologically very emotional people.
42:56 Emotions operate much more than clarity, than observation.
43:08 Which is, our sensory responses are much quicker, and those responses are recognised by thought as fear, as envy, as this or that. Right?
43:30 Clear? Now, if there was no thought, when there is this sense of anxiety – let’s use that word for the moment – when there is the sense of anxiety, when thought is absent, would you call it anxiety?
43:59 Of course not. You’ve had that feeling before, that sense of anxiety last week.
44:09 It has been recorded in the brain as memory.
44:16 And again that feeling arises and thought says, ‘Yes, I have had that feeling before and it is anxiety’.
44:28 Let me finish what I am… Which means I want to find out whether thought is giving to the emotions, to the sensations, a certain quality which is called fear, this and that and the other thing. Are you following this?
44:55 From which arises a question: can you observe the sea, the tree, the skies, a person with all your senses?
45:18 When you do, is there the operation of thought in that? Just a minute. Un momento por favour. I mean, just a moment, please.
45:34 Are we so dominated by thought that all our responses have been recorded and when those responses arise it’s immediately recognised as fear, as envy, as this or that?
46:05 So, Mrs Zimbalist is asking a question. As our response… as our emotions are so highly developed they are much more rapid than saying, ‘Yes, they have their place, let me look, hold it, be quiet, don’t let emotions operate when I am watching’.
46:39 Is that what you’re asking?
46:41 Q: Well, I now have to ask a secondary question.
46:44 K: A little louder please – they can’t hear the other side.
46:46 Q: Yes, I’m sorry. Can there be anxiety without thought? Or fear or any of these emotions we are talking about – can they exist without thought or are they not…
46:58 K: That is just what I am asking.
47:00 Q: Aren’t they thought? Therefore when you give the analogy of the sea, the sea is something objective, outside, but the things we’re talking about are part of thought.
47:17 K: So what are you trying to ask? A dialogue. I don’t quite capture you, understood what you’re...
47:25 Q: Well, when you speak of naming it, I am suggesting that that is a secondary process of thought, that the original thing, which is the anxiety, the fear, whatever it is, which we call an emotion, is thought.
47:40 Thought may then call it something but... (inaudible) K: You see, I don’t want to go into the business of thought for the moment, but that is the actuality.

Q: Yes.
47:56 K: So, can I observe, that is, hold without any movement of thought?
48:04 I said that.
48:05 Q: But you’re holding a thought.

K: No, I am not holding a thought.
48:12 I am holding – just a minute – I am holding what is called anxiety.
48:17 Q: But that you’ve just said is thought.
48:20 K: No, wait a minute, that comes a little later.
48:26 Q: But it’s pretty primary.
48:27 K: Wait. Not primary. No. I feel anxiety.
48:31 Q: Yes, but that’s a thought.
48:32 K: Just… No, I... Leave it. It is thought. Leave it. Let me… I feel great anxiety. Now, can I look at that anxiety? Not run away from it, not try to explain, not argue, not talk about it, just remain with it, look at it, hold it, as you would hold a precious jewel. Just look at it.
49:04 Wait, I know what you’re going to say, that anxiety is part of thought and if there was no thought, anxiety wouldn’t exist.
49:25 So I say, ‘Yes, it’s part of thought, it’s part of all that. Let me look’ – not ‘let me look’– ‘observe, hold’.
49:37 Which means… I don’t want to make it too complex.
49:41 Q: But, Krishnaji, what I’m trying to find out, the first question is… What do you look at when you’re looking at thought?
49:50 K: Nothing.

Q: You look. You feel.
49:51 K: Ah, just a minute. You see, you’re not... I don’t want to enter into this too deeply because if you…
50:01 if the activity of thought is not operating as escape, this and that, the other – is anxiety part of thought?
50:21 Q: In that case, is there any anxiety at all, sir?
50:27 K: Yes, that’s what I am saying. That is, when I have... when the mind has examined all this, looked at all this, not tried to escape and all the rest of it, and see the anxiety which I feel is part of the recognising process of memory, which is thought – the remembrance of other anxieties, with that memory I look at this fresh feeling, so it becomes anxiety.
51:07 So, what I am then... I don’t want to go too much into this because you may not…
51:18 When thought is absent in observation does anxiety exist at all?
51:27 That’s... I don’t want to…
51:32 Q: I wonder if we’re a bit misled by the idea of holding it, because in fact one tends to think – at least I tend to think – when you say hold it, hold onto it like a precious jewel, you said, that if you hold on to it, you tend to think you have to keep it around to examine it, but the examining it itself is…

K: No, sir. No.
51:55 Q: It’s more like you have to let go of it.
51:57 K: You have complicated it. Go on, sir, discuss with me. Go on. Have a dialogue with me.
52:12 Q: Sir, from what she’s saying, the feeling itself is movement. Anxiety or jealousy, when it’s there, it’s moving, it’s saying, ‘I am jealous of this person because of this, he’s got that’, and so on.
52:27 And when you say hold it…
52:31 K: Without a movement.
52:33 Q: Then there’s no jealousy to look at.
52:34 K: Of course not. That’s the whole point. But don’t… Is that so in your life? Don’t speculate about it. Does this actually take place? You are no longer jealous, envious.
52:58 Q: It’s not so in our life if we have a concept of holding it, an idea holding of it.
53:04 K: It is not a concept, sir. Actually do it.
53:07 Q: But we do have a concept of it.

K: It’s not a… Then what you have heard you translate it into an idea, a concept, and you’re trying to carry out that concept.
53:20 We are not talking about concepts. I am saying I am actually anxious.
53:31 Q: All right, but….

K: You know that state of tremendous anxiety – whether it’s examination, whether it is something or other – you are terribly anxious.
53:42 When there is anxiety you get nervous, you perspire, you know, everything takes place. That’s an actuality, it is not a concept, it’s not an idea.
53:58 So the speaker is saying remain, hold or stay with that word, that feeling of anxiety.
54:11 And Mrs Zimbalist brought in this question that thought is anxiety.
54:25 I won’t go into this.
54:30 Q: Srinivas said that there was a movement in that. There is also inevitably content in that. One doesn’t appear… (inaudible) K: Are you doing it, madame? Maria, are you doing it actually?
54:47 When you’re anxious or envious, or anger or whatever it is, will you look at it?
54:55 Not as a separate entity – look, observe it without any movement of thought.
55:13 Q: Does that mean without any content whatsoever?
55:21 K: Of course.
55:22 Q: Then…

K: Don’t complicate it. Of course.
55:25 Q: No but the thing is thought.
55:38 K: Any further dialogue?
55:41 Q: I think that both problems and anxiety give people a sense of existence and therefore I think the main fear is that if you have no more problem and anxiety you don’t know what’s going to happen.
55:56 You see what I mean?

K: Not quite.
56:01 Q: The reason why people hold on to problems and want to have problems is that it gives them a sense of existence.
56:07 K: Yes, yes.
56:09 Q: Now it is I think the fear of not having that sense that keeps people with their problems.
56:16 K: That’s right. I said that. We said that earlier. If you have no problems at all, you say, ‘Well, life is empty’.
56:26 Is that so? Or you have projected the idea that it will be empty therefore hold on to your problems.
56:37 I mean, that sounds rather silly.
56:48 What do you say? Go on.
56:49 Q: But sir, part of our training is to think that observation is done by thought.
57:03 Our training is to think that observation is done either by thought or at least with thought.
57:12 K: Now, just a minute, I understand. Now, can you observe a tree or the speaker, observe without thought?
57:25 Can you observe him, or the tree or your neighbour or your friend, observe without a single movement of thought?
57:35 Have you ever tried it?
57:41 Q: It’s not possible, is it?
57:43 K: Or immediately the image that you have built about that person arises.
57:53 That’s your question at the beginning, your question. You wanted to talk about image building. Right?
58:03 Q: Yes, I think so. I can see that if you look at a tree, at an external thing, at…
58:11 K: Wait, wait, first see an external thing. You do that, don’t you? You can do that fairly easily. You look that thing and don’t name it – you can look. Right? But can you do the same with regard to all your emotional etc., etc., psychological activity, without the image that you have built about yourself or about another?
58:47 Why do we have images about ourselves?
58:55 I am great, I am not, I have no capacity, I must… – you follow?
59:03 Why? Why do we have images about ourselves?
59:24 Is it – we are having a dialogue; don’t remain silent – is it because we have never looked or observed anything without a single image?
59:45 Is it because thought has become so prominent in our life?
59:55 And thought is word, symbol, idea, measurement.
1:00:09 Thought is time. And all that immediately creates an image about myself.
1:00:21 Or I have been from childhood identified with myself – with my body, with my name, with the things I’ve achieved, experienced, the power that I have, the status I have – you know, all that – that gradually from childhood I’ve built an image about myself.
1:00:56 Have you an image about yourself?
1:01:00 Q: Yes.
1:01:04 K: Of course. Don’t be shy about it. We all have images about ourselves.
1:01:15 Why? Because if you have no image about yourself, what happens?
1:01:26 Q: You feel lost.
1:01:35 K: You are lost. Somebody says, ‘You are lost’.

Q: You feel lost.
1:01:44 K: You feel lost. Aren’t you lost now?
1:01:58 Now just a minute. Suppose I have built an image about myself – I’m a great... all kinds of stuff – and you tell me, If you have no... Get rid of that image because that image is the factor of conflict, is the real basis of conflict.
1:02:28 Right? You show it to me because I have built an image about myself and you have built an image about yourself and these images can never meet, obviously, so there must be conflict between us.
1:02:48 You point this out to me and I see the rationality of it, the truth of it and I say, ‘Yes’.
1:02:57 Then my next question is: how am I not to build an image? Right? Is that possible? To have no image about yourself as an artist, as a professional, as a guru, as a speaker sitting on a platform, and so on, so on – all that.
1:03:21 Having an image about yourself.
1:03:29 What would happen if I have no image?
1:03:35 Q: Is that different from knowing oneself?
1:03:40 K: No, that is knowing yourself.
1:03:48 Knowing yourself is the inquiry into the image that you have about yourself.
1:03:59 Why all of us, the most uneducated, the most etc., etc., all the extremely, highly sophisticated, intellectual and so on – why people have images at all.
1:04:17 I’m British, I’m French, I’m a Hindu, I am a Palestine, I am an American – you follow? – those are all images.
1:04:31 Do those images give security, a sense of false security?
1:04:41 Of course.
1:04:43 Q: Sir, wouldn’t you agree that images are necessary for thought to function?
1:04:50 K: Images are necessary for thought to function?
1:04:53 Q: Because thought is based on image.
1:05:01 K: Now what do you mean, ‘thought to function’?
1:05:04 Q: If one has to think about something one has to have an image.
1:05:08 K: Why do you have to think about something?
1:05:10 Q: Say to go somewhere.
1:05:12 K: I go somewhere – what?

Q: I have to know, I have to think, I have an image where London is, I have to go to London.
1:05:17 K: No, why should I have an image about where London is? You see, you are reducing… No, I won’t… Look at it carefully. Why do you – you have an image, haven’t you, about yourself? Why?
1:05:37 Q: Because I think about myself.
1:05:39 K: Go into it, sir. Don’t just say, ‘I think about it’. Why do you have an image about yourself? How has that image been formed? Step by step, go into it.
1:05:55 And ask yourself, if I may suggest, why you have those images.
1:06:05 Is it because, vanity?
1:06:14 ‘I am much better than you are’.
1:06:23 Is it born out of comparison, measurement?
1:06:32 That is, you are very clever, beautiful and all the rest of it, and I am dull and I say, ‘I must be like you’.
1:06:41 That’s comparison, measurement, envy.
1:06:49 Why do you have all these images? For what?
1:06:53 Q: Well, again, I think it comes to the question of a sense of existence.
1:06:58 K: All right. Is that existence? We have accepted it. Up to now, that’s existence. Having an image, you have an image, we’ll battle each other for the rest of our lives.
1:07:16 I am a Roman Catholic, you are an atheist and we have battle royal, racially, economically and in belief. Right?
1:07:34 Why?
1:07:35 Q: But, sir, it seems to me that if we say it’s an image, it doesn’t make sense to say we keep it because we want security.
1:07:43 It seems to me we wouldn’t keep it if we knew it was an image. In other words, we have the image because we don’t see it as an image.
1:07:51 K: All right. Now just wait here. If you don’t see it, could I help you to see it?
1:08:06 That is, you have lived in this place, Brockwood, for several years.
1:08:16 You obviously have some image about the people you know.
1:08:27 Right? And are you aware of those images? Obviously you have an image about me, about the speaker, sitting on the platform, haven’t you?
1:08:43 Q: I’m not sure.
1:08:46 K: What do you mean you’re not sure?
1:08:53 All right, that may be too... You have an image about Brockwood, haven’t you?
1:09:01 Q: I mean, one thing I can see is I have an image about myself, that I am this kind of person and so on. I’m in conflict with other people. But why don’t we see through this?
1:09:15 K: Have you accepted this conflict?
1:09:18 Q: I think we tend to accept it.

K: Yes, you have tolerated it. You say ‘That’s part of my existence’. Right? So you carry on with that burden for the rest of your life. Right?
1:09:37 And don’t you see what immense damage this conflict does?
1:09:44 Not only to you, but to others, as a race, as a nationality – you follow? – it’s causing havoc in the world.
1:09:55 Right?
1:09:56 Q: Yes, and it seems to be such tremendous problem because the wars, the…
1:10:00 K: No, no. No, just see it. Is that so?
1:10:04 Q: Yes.

K: So is that… when you say yes, is it merely a verbal ‘yes’ or the realisation that this image is creating havoc in the world?
1:10:19 Q: I can see it is.
1:10:22 K: Is it an intellectual perception, or as acute as pain in your tooth?
1:10:36 Or is it merely an idea, or an actuality?
1:10:50 Q: You see, I think it’s easy. We stay on the level of ideas. Anyone can see this – level of ideas, and it changes nothing.
1:10:57 K: Of course, sir, the level of ideas we can all see. But to put aside the level of ideas and look, face the thing, face the actuality that we have images.
1:11:16 If I have an image – if I have one – as a Hindu, I am opposed to everybody else.
1:11:29 If I am a communist and I turn to Moscow, and everybody who is against Moscow is my enemy.
1:11:40 Right? Why don’t we see this actual fact?
1:11:50 Is it that we’re lazy, tolerate our conflict, or frightened that if we have no conflict, what is life?
1:12:04 Q: But that’s ridiculous. Why should we cling on to conflict? That doesn’t make sense.

K: Look, you may have say, ‘Why do we cling on to conflict?’ but you are clinging on.
1:12:18 Q: Are you are saying that it’s my choice I wish to live in this, that’s the only reason?
1:12:24 K: Look, if you have a toothache, what do you do? You go to the dentist immediately. Right? If conflict is real pain to you, you would end it. But we accept conflict. We are educated, we are conditioned.
1:12:50 Shall we stop? It’s quarter past one. Shall we stop? All right. You are all too eager. All right.