Krishnamurti Subtitles home


BR81S1 - Immediate change
Brockwood Park, UK - 11 September 1981
Seminar 1



0:19 Krishnamurti: Sir, would you like to start?
0:22 Professor Wilkins, would you like to start?
0:32 Questioner: You mean you would like me to?
0:34 K: Begin, set the ball rolling.
0:38 Q: Well, this is unexpected. But I understand the question under discussion is education.
0:49 K: Yes.
0:53 Q: I have read various things about education and thought about education, and I was thinking coming down on the train, what does all this amount to? I couldn’t remember all these things I’d read and thought. All I could think of was that education was a leading out. And then, how did one lead this out and where did it come from? This was essentially a mystery. And that was as far as I got.
1:39 Q: Sir, you pointed out our total responsibility in bringing about…
1:45 K: You’ll have to speak louder, sir.
1:47 Q: You pointed out our total responsibility, for the birth of a new human being into our culture. Our ways of thought, approaching… (inaudible) I wonder whether we could possibly approach a way of learning which is integral and total and not fragmented.
2:43 K: Why we are all being educated, apart from reading and writing, apart from acquiring certain academic knowledge, which is necessary for our daily livelihood – apart from that, what are we being educated for? Considering what the society is now, almost you can do anything you want to do. Everyone is free. At least, they think they are, to do what they want to do. When one realises what the world is coming to, and what the future is going to be, why are we being educated?
3:50 Q: You mean educated in the sense of conditioned and trained? And not really educated.

K: Not really educated, not cultured, not being thoroughly civilised.
4:06 Q: Your question is what we should be educated for, what we’re leading to, what we are being educated for.
4:11 K: Yes, that’s what I mean. The threat of war, tremendous unemployment, the computer with its social upheaval, and if I had a son – thank God I haven’t got one – what would I educate him for, what would I help him to become or be? What is his future, as a human being living in this terrible world, which is terrible, dangerous? What am I to do? This is a very serious problem. We’ve got several schools in India, here and America, and we look at all this, one wonders what one is actually doing.
5:32 Q: I see a preparation.
5:34 K: Preparation for what?

Q: Meaningful life.
5:43 K: Each person will translate ‘meaningful life’, according to his own pleasures, idiosyncrasies and miseries. So, is that all?
5:59 Q: Education is to prepare and show the way. We have to teach about the limits. Is that what we are up to? Teach about the limits – do this, do not do that, this is the right path, that’s the wrong path.
6:25 Q: Is it possible to prepare for?
6:28 K: Louder, sir, because…
6:29 Q: Is it possible to prepare for? Is not the action of thought itself to produce the future continually, an invasion, and all our ingenuity goes into that? So, we produce all sorts of technological fixes and structures which… (inaudible) …to real relationship.
6:57 Q: About the limits. Surely, the main point about education is ultimately, there are no limits. This is the very difficult thing for people to realise, because all of the so-called education normally is imposing limits on the human mind.
7:16 Q: There are no limits? Then we can do anything we want to do? That’s what’s causing all the problems. Only the gurus seem to know what is right and what is wrong.
7:27 K: Oh no, for God’s sake, leave the gurus out of this.
7:35 Q: Clearly, there are all kinds of limits within the physical laws of the material universe, but ultimately, the human mind will only impose its own limits on itself.
7:50 K: So, what is the future of the human mind? I’m being educated, let’s say, to become a lawyer or a physicist – what’s the future of my mind? Just keep on turning out theories, more instruments of war?
8:15 Q: It seems, sir, we’re prolific in ideas but very poor in relationship.
8:22 K: Please, join in, those who want to discuss in this.
8:30 Q: I see fulfilment of opportunity – opportunity being something that we have to discover.
8:39 K: This is what we are proposing, sir. If I had a son, what am I to do to educate him? In the real sense of that word, what am I to do? What is his future?
9:04 Q: I feel a lot of his future is within him, preparation to enable him to manifest that.
9:14 K: Enable him to face all this?

Q: Yes.
9:22 K: That requires a certain amount of intelligence. Does education give that intelligence?
9:31 Q: Not today.

K: Not today. So, what is one to do?
9:38 Q: It needs a new type of education.
9:41 K: Let’s talk about it, let’s inquire.
9:48 Q: I’m not sure if I understand what you said. A new type of education where would it come from?
9:54 Q: From within.
9:56 Q: We remain the same. How can we create a new system, a new process?
10:04 Q: If feel, from awareness.
10:09 Q: Could we just look at what actually seems to happen in these schools?
10:15 K: In any school, sir.
10:17 Q: What we’re trying to move out of here. Either we’re dealing with individual peoples’ problems, which seem to be very demanding, perhaps as one grows up, or we’re trying to put something more abstract and less individual, for the whole human race to understand. But what constantly seems to happen is that people may get a little bit of it but they go on making all the old human mistakes one’s made, and one sees every child growing up, making all the same mistakes…
10:47 K: The same pattern.

Q: Go through the wasted years. Is there any way of short-circuiting this process? We don’t seem to have found it.
11:03 K: Are you implying that human reactions can never be changed?
11:11 Q: No, I’m not implying that, I’m looking at what actually we seem to be in. Many times one feels one’s tried very hard to communicate with someone or one’s seen someone grow up and that they may change a little.
11:28 K: You can’t do anything.

Q: Right.
11:31 K: So, what are we doing? That’s my point, too.
11:36 Q: Because questioning what we see of what’s happened, to ourselves and to those who are being educated at the present moment. We can’t live life according to a policy. Which is the main conditioning these days. And the question raised, a new form of education, which means to bypass the policy attitude of mind.
12:03 Q: It seems to be very important to differentiate between the formal process of education, the sort of education schools and colleges provide – and I think the purpose of that seems to be fairly clear, to give the pupil some means to understand the world they live in. But once that education is given to individuals, the way that it reacts with their particular personality and their needs is something that cannot really be controlled. I’ve always felt that education, as a formal process, is essentially, very superficial, but the way that it reacts is very individualistic and something, as I say, we cannot plan for.
12:53 Q: The process of passing on the information – information per se can be readily available, easily taken up from books.
13:05 Q: Yes, it’s essentially a mechanical process, a technological process, the process of teaching.
13:11 Q: Yes, this is very clear, once a child has developed sufficiently...
13:17 Q: You’re talking of subject matter education, which seems to me is different from the education we’re speaking of. I don’t think we, our society, or any society have attempted anything other than subject matter education.
13:34 Q: Can we take up that question of short-circuiting the system? The gentleman here seemed to deplore the fact that the parental generation, pedagogic generation, cannot help the younger short-circuit the system, and to learn from their own mistakes. But this assumes, surely, an authoritative relationship between teacher and taught.
14:00 Q: I wouldn’t go that far.
14:01 Q: Is this necessarily the basis for education?
14:04 Q: Age after age, all human energy seems to be spent on going through the same patterns.
14:10 Q: Yes, but is it not arguable the learning process is making those mistakes, going through the patterns.
14:17 Q: I’m not trying to move away from there. That’s actually happening. Why does it happen? Is there something in the learning process which creates that repetition of that pattern? That’s a valid question. I wasn’t trying to answer.
14:33 Q: If you want to short-circuit it, presumably that’s by teaching.
14:38 Q: Is it necessary to spend 20, 30, 40, 50 years finding out how to live a life of some maturity and passion? That’s my question, essentially. As it seems to be for most of us.
14:52 Q: Don’t we continue to make the same mistakes simply because we are the same sort of people? We’re the same now as we were 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago. As individuals, as a species, we haven’t advanced in many respects, we’ve simply changed our technology.
15:14 Q: Is it necessary to take a long time in self-education?
15:20 K: Is it necessary for my son to go through all this misery, all this travail and confusion and end up in a hospital? What am I to do? Mr Nicholson is asking, is there a way of educating our children so as to cut out all this dead head, break through something?
16:02 Q: Might the approach to this question be to look at what do we educate out, in the normal system? What is there in the initial children’s perceptions that can be used creatively? There’s a sense of wonder, there’s a sense of poetry, of response to things which tends to be educated out, perhaps, by formal education. Perhaps, it should be going back to this, taking these starting points, rather than authoritative parent/teacher relationship.
16:37 Q: It seems to me there is a more serious issue here, that we don’t have access to the youngsters anymore. And these cameras are to be blamed for that. The media has shattered family lives and we don’t have any access to them. How do we get to them? Even if we conceive of an idea to educate. I find it difficult to understand how to reach the children, how to save them.
17:13 Q: There are two patterns to avoid, one is the authoritarian one and the other is the opposite of it, which is the concentration of self-expression of the individual, of the individual child’s perception itself is enough to allow him to flower as a wonderful human being. One’s trying to go somewhere between those two extremes of schools which have existed in history, to something much more immediate. Is that actually something we can do?
17:42 Q: Krishnaji, I feel that one of the central things that one has to look at is what is worth learning? What is it that is the proper subject matter of education? We would all probably agree that math and history, etc., is not the fundamental subject of a true education. But then, answering the question, what is the fundamental subject, is something much more elusive, which many times I feel we avoid.
18:25 Q: Can I just say something? A problem is that with children we have this energy coming up, and all the time we seem to assume that we know what this energy is. There’s always an energy coming out of the child and it seems everyone’s trying to shape it. They think they know what it is and they’re trying to direct it. Maybe that’s the unknown, it’s life coming out of these kids. We get fouled up because we always assume that we know what we’re doing. Maybe we don’t. Maybe we should be learning with them.
19:11 Q: I’d like to ask, is it right even to discuss education of children when we ourselves are confused? If we are confused, all we can teach children is more confusion.
19:34 Q: I think one has to be a bit more realistic than that, really. One has a certain perception of what is going on – it may not be a total or profound perception but one has some idea of what is going on, and some idea of what the ordinary education is, so to that degree one is not confused because, generally, it’s a fairly superficial matter. It’s a subject matter affair, a variety of divided subjects, with probably a bit of physical education thrown in. There seem to be these two things, subject matter and physical education, but the rest of education is ignored. Even to acknowledge the fact that something is being ignored is a step, it’s a beginning.
20:27 Q: How do you know what’s going on? Why do students want to go to the pub? They come up here, they have this education and there’s something wrong with them. You think you know what’s going on, but do you? Because it isn’t working.
20:45 Q: We’re talking about the global situation, at the moment, and then move into something else. We’re talking about what happens in education usually, and then from there, is it possible to move into something else? That’s the question.
21:02 Q: It seems to me that knowledge as required in technical subjects, efficiency, research, is somewhat inimical to relationship which is absolutely essential in the learning process anyway. You may have the knowledge. How do you convey it with something more than just the technical facility? Because obviously we’re human beings and it needs something more than that.
21:38 Q: This point about knowing present so-called education, is quite right. We can recognise its properties. But we want to be careful if we describe it as superficial, because it is not really superficial, it goes down into people’s depths by imposing limits on the way they think and their attitude of mind. The giving of information and the way in which the information is given in the ordinary so-called educational system is imposing great damage in many respects, it confers certain advantages on the recipient but also great damage. It has been said that the educational system is the greatest force in society against innovation.
22:34 Q: Education isn’t just relationship between the teacher and the taught, it also involves parents. Otherwise, a child will grow up to be just like me.
22:49 Q: But there is the need for something different from our present system. The attitude is we cling to our present system of education, at the same time seeing how it falls short. And we see the need to have something different because we see the results of the inadequacy of our system, and we cling to one thing, looking for the alternative, and afraid of the gap in between. But what if we no longer rely on the present system of education?
23:34 Q: In what way is our present system failing society? We can see that society has an awful lot of problems, and any society historically has its own particular group of problems. I’m not sure that you can therefore make the assumption that the educational system is failing to help society solve those problems. There are two different things. There are problems and every society always has and probably always will have problems. Then there is an educational system. These two things impinge on each other but the way in which education relates to those groups of problems is by no means very clear.
24:22 Q: We’re talking about the attitude of mind that the system generates. The reliance upon authority for a start. The assertion that this is the best way to live and you should conduct yourself in this fashion misses the very thing that’s under question. In other words, it stifles originality while purporting to encourage it. So, we have the fact on the one hand and theory on the other. We’re questioning the attitude of mind which can approach situations and the need for responsibility. How can this be engendered? Are we clinging to authority, on the one hand, and looking for some originality on the other? It’s not a very original situation.
25:19 Q: I’m not sure how much education ever sets out to create originality. It’s something that happens because of the people involved in it, but I don’t know that this is an objective.
25:33 Q: One can encourage or inhibit originality, and so on.
25:39 Q: The educational system has not helped society to solve its problems. It helps to reinforce the problems which exist in society.
25:49 K: So, if I may ask, what is the cause of all this, the cause of what is happening to society? Do I educate my son to conform to the pattern of that society or to move totally in a different direction?
26:23 Q: Hopefully, not the former.

K: Yes. So, what am I to do? What is the cause, the root of all this?
26:33 Q: The value has come from people, not from education.
26:38 K: I can invent my own values. Society has invented values.
26:47 Q: But it’s the values that are within and the individuals…
26:52 K: What is the cause of this present confusion in the world, including the confusion that exists in each one of us? If we don’t discover the root cause of it, we are then only moving at a depth or a superficial activity. So, what is the cause of all this? If I could find out and transmit that to my son, whether he’ll accept it or not, I’d like to point it out to him and say, ‘For God’s sake, don’t go through all this misery – cut through all that’. So, I’d like to ask, for the consideration of all of us, the root cause of all this confusion, misery in the world, of which I am part.
28:08 Q: In other words, before I start educating myself...
28:11 K: I’m not talking of even education.
28:13 Q: Before I start that, I must go through a thorough investigation.
28:17 K: We are doing that now.
28:20 Q: To become aware of what’s wrong.
28:23 K: What is wrong with human beings, who’ve produced this monstrous world?
28:35 Q: One thing, we think we know.
28:38 K: What is that?
28:39 Q: We think we know things, we think we know the answer to a lot of things, a set of knowledge. It’s one element in what is wrong.
28:55 K: I’m going to die in a few years and I have not helped my son. I’m talking really seriously. I am concerned about my son, I love him, I have tremendous feeling for him, and for the future of him and mankind. And I say in what way can I help him to be free of all this and move in a different dimension, a different level from this? What am I to do? If we could discuss that, not theoretically, abstractly, but actually, what am I to do? What kind of education or no education? What kind of pressure, environment, atmosphere? What am I to do?
30:03 Q: I take up the point this gentleman made. One of our great problems is that we have this attitude towards society, which suggests that we understand how complex social systems work. And those of us who are put in positions of authority assume that they have the ability to understand very complex systems and to make adjustments to them. The results of those adjustments invariably are that they make things more confused and worse. It’s this attitude of arrogance, of assuming that we have the ability to direct and adjust complex things in ways we think we can anticipate.
31:00 Q: There seems to be resistance to the actual fact of the confusion. It’s like when Brian said it’s an appalling fact that we have a son, we see him go through the same patterns and when we think about it, it seems an appalling thing that we’re not helping him. Yet, if we think for a minute that that’s the result of our confusion, there seems to be an instant moving away from the fact of that confusion, as though we don’t give it a chance.
31:40 Q: There’s a tremendous resistance in dealing with any of these issues directly and simply, in a way which may create some change, rather than an abstract discussion of several possible causes.
31:59 Q: Somehow, we haven’t answered your question of what the root cause of all the confusion is.
32:06 K: That’s what I’m asking you. We’re not discussing that, apparently.
32:10 Q: It seems that the root cause might be quite complex, more complex than can be answered in a sentence.
32:22 K: Is it so complex as all that?
32:24 Q: Well, it’s fairly complex.
32:26 K: I’m not sure.
32:28 Q: I can see that one of the causes of the confusion is that for thousands of years man has been acquisitive and self-centred. That’s how he’s built society. First me, and then my family and then everyone else. And that’s what the schools are educating us to. The more knowledge you have, the further you go. Security is involved in it, too.
33:05 Q: Sir, a society that has no limits, has no moral principles and therefore, it’s free, everything is free.
33:16 K: Sir, I’m concerned about my son. Just a minute, let’s stick to that. My son, your son, your daughter, your grandchildren, whatever it is. What are we to do? Instead of talking theoretically, let’s come down to it.
33:34 Q: I have thought about this in a real sense. And it is very helpless situation. I have certain values…

K: I’m not talking values. I want to know how to educate him not to be corrupted by his friends, by his society, by all the circus that goes on.
34:04 Q: Certainly schools are not going to do it.
34:06 K: You are not answering my question. What am I, as a parent, with my problems I have – with my wife, with my society, with my job and so on, and I have another problem which is my son – what way am I to help him not to be caught in this trap?
34:35 Q: If I see the problem, I just point out.
34:39 K: I’m asking. Tell me. Help me. What am I to do as a parent? I have a certain responsibility.
34:55 Q: I’d like to approach your question in a somewhat different direction, from the direction which has been discussed already by some of the experts in the educational field. I’m not in the educational field, but I do have a son, and that son is being educated here. So, this is a very pertinent question.
35:23 K: Sir, you may not be a teacher in the school but you are a parent.
35:29 Q: I am a parent.

K: You have children around you. What is my relationship, your relationship to those children and what will you do with those children?
35:42 Q: I’d like to approach it from a different direction, from a product of the educational system, myself. I have tried to trace this product back through to a cause. I can only do so in the area in which I work, which is medicine. I have carefully observed, over a number of years, the way that medical education goes, as a product of ordinary education. I find that the whole of medical education is geared to effects, to symptoms, to superficial manifestations of ill-health. The medical profession by and large, is not concerned with causes, it is not concerned with health, it is really a disease service. The answer to this is obviously to look in another direction. Medical education links almost exclusively to the world of effects. I assume ordinary education tends to link to effects and diversity. The world of causes – deep inner causes, not modification coming about from the surface to changes in effects – I’m talking about the deep, inherent causes that lie in the totality of man which have a bearing on all aspects of his life. It would seem that the approach is for anyone concerned in educating, either themselves or their children, is to find a way to develop a greater inner sensitivity, a way to the inner mechanisms which render them sensitive to the whole, rather than to this exclusive consideration of the part. I think this applies in any field of education, be it the total field of education or partial education.
38:11 Q: One first essential is that one doesn’t have any illusion in education that one is going to be teaching the child, or the other person. When I said at the beginning that one would be leading out, I think that’s probably not putting it the right way. The first essential seems to be that you look at the child and you become aware of what they are. I think this is the first essential. You study them and you do not approach them with all kinds of preconceptions about what they ought to be.
39:02 K: What they ought to do, I have no conception. What their future is, I don’t know. Here is my child – sorry to stick to that point – and he’s going to face this world. I want to help him, if I can, to not be caught in this trap. That’s all my concern.
39:35 Q: This implies two things to me. First, that you have something. That oneself has something to pass on.
39:52 K: I have nothing to pass on. I am confused, I am selfish, I am brutal, I am insensitive, – all the rest of it. I know I can’t pass that on to him. It’s absurd my passing that on to him.
40:06 Q: But if you’re going to speak to the child – your question was, what are we to do, to short-circuit this situation, bring some intelligence into it? The question seems to imply that first you have something to pass on and secondly, you have a relationship with the child which he could receive. The one thing one couldn’t pass on is an attitude of questioning. As I sit here now, I can’t see anything more to the point. It may change in five minutes from now, but that’s how it seems now.
40:51 Q: If I understand you when you say, ‘I don’t know what I should do’, what should one do, I get a feeling that I’m not clear what to do. You’re saying that something has got to be done but I’m not clear about it.
41:10 K: Yes, sir, I feel about it.
41:14 Q: One thing I could be clear about is the present situation, the trap. If I get clear about the trap, I can show this trap. Beware where you put your feet.
41:28 K: But the problem is quite difficult. I can point out all this, but the children, with whom he’s playing, with whom he’s in contact, they are going to corrupt him. And their parents are going to corrupt him. You follow? The whole thing is…
41:49 Q: Sure. But I can also tell him, ‘Beware’.
41:53 K: Yes, but he likes to play with them and to belong to the group.
42:00 Q: He likes to belong to the group because he’s insecure.
42:05 K: You’ve seen all this, I don’t have to tell you.
42:09 Q: So, Krishnaji, we’re saying that being told about this trap and really learning about this trap, are two different things.
42:18 K: He knows it pretty well. The child, unless he’s completely dull, he’ll listen to you. He knows it, he reads the papers. You help him to current events. He knows all this.
42:39 Q: But he doesn’t actually… knowing it is different than seeing it, and seeing how fundamentally impossible it is to live like that.
42:49 K: Are you saying the fact and the word are two different things? Agreed.
42:56 Q: The one is the education and the other is nothing.
42:59 K: Yes, pursue that for a while.
43:03 Q: Then, part of that is, what is the root? I would say that not only don’t we know the root, or the trap, but we don’t even know about how to discover it, really learn about it for ourselves. This is hopefully what we would begin addressing ourselves – how do we ourselves learn what this fundamental thing is, which is the root or the trap?

K: Sir, let’s say for the moment, as Shakuntala pointed out, we are selfish, utterly self-centred. I have my job, I am a carpenter, whatever, I am involved in it, I am involved with my problems, I’m jealous, I am self-centred. Basic cause is selfishness. Let’s for the moment take that. Then what am I to do? And my son is, too.
44:03 Q: How am I to learn about that?

K: Not learn. I know it. I see I’m selfish but I don’t know how to go beyond it, how to break through this barrier.
44:15 Q: That selfishness makes me feel insecure, unsafe.
44:23 Q: How can I dig under that and find the root of it?
44:29 K: That’s what we’re trying to go in to, sir.
44:33 Q: Isn’t the first thing this barrier between oneself and somebody else? The barrier exists and you are aware of the barrier could one ever go through that barrier?
44:51 Q: Sir, while I operate as a totally selfish human being, I can have this feeling for my son, that I don’t want him to be selfish? Could it be a totally selfless approach to my son, to want him to live a completely different life? Because the affection for my son would be of some different quality.
45:20 Q: Don’t a lot of parents say that, or think that about their youngsters? They look at them and say, ‘God, are you going to grow up and be part of all this mess?’ Are we totally selfish in the act of saying that or is there something there that may help us to go into it?
45:44 K: I understand, sir. If I am selfish, I might tell my son not to be selfish… He spits in my face.

Q: I understand but is there something more than that in the relationship?
46:04 Q: A certain affection for the child that he may pick up.
46:09 K: Can I be affectionate, love my son and be selfish?
46:16 Q: Can one begin by at least seeing the selfishness in action? What else does one do? There might be affection, moments of non-selfishness but they are all too rare. Does one begin just by seeing when one is selfish and how that arises? Where one goes from there, I don’t know.
46:38 K: One can see very well how it arises. That’s fairly simple. Tremendous acquisitiveness – all the rest of it.
46:49 Q: But then where does one go from there?
46:51 K: If you could stick to that for a moment and go through it.
46:57 Q: Sir, we normally respond just to the pain. We normally only act because of pain. Is there an action which is not caused by stimulus, in the sense of renewing itself constantly without stimulus?
47:24 K: If I act from a centre of selfishness, you see the misery of it all. In society, you see it. But then you have to ask, is there an action which has no cause? I can’t talk to my son about all this. He’d say, ‘What are you talking about?’ Go ahead, sir, please.
48:03 Q: Well, you said I can’t talk to my son. If you really look at your son and you are aware of how he is living, then you can help him to become aware of how he is living. And it is through that awareness of the nature of his life that you may help him.

K: I understand that, sir, but I have got to go to my office at nine o’clock in the morning, leave the house at eight to catch the train, come home at seven o’clock, and I see very little of him. In the meantime, he’s in a boarding school, whatever it is, where he’s being corrupted. What am I to do? And my wife wants a good career. She has no time for him, either. So, he’s left. And the professors, the scientists, the philosophers take him over.
49:11 Q: This doesn’t sound like caring for your son. This doesn’t sound as if you care for your son, if you’re doing this. It’s a fairly hopeless situation.

K: That is what’s happening.
49:23 Q: That’s what must change.

K: That’s what I’m asking. That is actually what is going on. I don’t know if you have read, what they are doing in America. Children can have sex. They are all authorities with PhDs and doctorates and all the rest of it, so Americans are accepting it. They must know it. They must be educated in sex. You follow? Begin with the smallest child.
50:11 Q: I’m not sure the situation is hopeless, because most parents abandon their children to the educational establishment.

K: That is what is being done, sir.
50:25 Q: Yes, but not all parts of it are bad, some of it is.
50:29 K: A little bit of it is not quite so bad. Like a rotten egg – parts of it bad. Facing that, what is my responsibility as a parent, as an educator? The parent is an educator. So, what is my responsibility, when all the world is pushing him in another direction?
51:03 Q: First of all, I must know if I really want to take care of him. If I really do, I must change job.
51:10 K: No, sir. I can’t change my job. I’m too exhausted. You don’t take facts. I’m too exhausted at the end of the day.
51:22 Q: That’s a hopeless situation.

K: So, I’m one of the unemployed.
51:28 Q: That’s another extreme. Can’t I organise my life a little differently, first? If I really want to take care of my children. Drop a little of my ambition.
51:45 K: I do, sir. I’ve been educated wrongly. I don’t know how to think properly. I’m confused.
51:52 Q: Well, how does one learn to really learn?
51:57 K: My point is, first let’s face the facts as they are, and move from there, not theories. The facts are these. America is saying all this now. Children can have sex, under 13, under 10. And that wave is going to spread right through the world. That’s one problem. That’s an actuality. And the next is war. The threat of war. And the other is, he has to earn a livelihood. And as he grows up, he has all the sexual problems. At the end of it, when he’s 30, 40, he’s washed out. I see all this in front of me, and say, ‘My God, what am I to do?’ I don’t want theories about, ‘What is right action?’ I’ll cut out all that, and say, ‘Here is a problem for me, at my doorsteps’.
53:22 Q: It seems unavoidable that you must find sufficient time to pay attention to the child. Maybe even in a small amount of time, if you concentrate your mind, and really pay careful attention, you can see what the child is and help them to become aware of what their life is.
53:44 K: Sir, what is the child? Let’s look at it. What is my child like? What is he? He wants to learn. Right? They are saying – of course, you know all about it – they can learn extraordinarily quickly many things, at the age of five.
54:06 Q: I don’t know all about it.
54:09 K: That’s what all the experts are writing about, experimented with this. And my son happens to be rather sensitive, for various reasons, and all that is going to be destroyed. Right? And I want to prevent it. The child hears me quarrelling with my wife – you follow? – he’s been aware of all that. I’m a hypocrite. I say one thing and do something else.
55:14 Q: Is that a meaningful statement? I feel that I must do something about it, I must change, I must help him.
55:24 K: I want to see that he lives a good life. Not in the sense of a worldly life.
55:31 Q: But as you continue to live a not good life, yourself. We don’t care enough. We care when we’ve got a child, presented to us, we say, ‘Yes…’

K: I care very much.
55:44 Q: But not enough, Krishnaji.
55:46 K: Don’t tell me I don’t care enough.
55:48 Q: But you don’t live that way.

K: But I’ve got my job, my problems.
55:55 Q: That’s not good enough.
55:56 K: It may not be but those are facts. And I have very little time for my son.
56:03 Q: You should look at it.

K: I do look at it.
56:06 Q: Something has been awakened in you by the very fact of your son and it has made you think, ‘What am I doing with my life, what do I value?’
56:15 K: Which means what?
56:18 Q: That you don’t really mean what you say.
56:20 K: Yes. I have to educate myself and at the same time educate my son. Now, I don’t know how to educate myself. That’s one of the problems. That’s one of my problems. I see you’re quite right, I must educate myself, totally differently. Now, what does that mean?
56:44 Q: Simplistically, to me, if there is no help from without, the only help can come from within.
56:52 K: I won’t accept help from anybody. They’ve all led me up the gum tree – priests, professors, scientists, have said do this and do that. I say no more. So, I have to rely on myself. That means – you know what that means?
57:17 Q: You have to have the courage to fail.
57:22 Q: In this situation, we are the blind attempting to lead the blind.
57:27 K: That’s what is happening, sir.
57:31 Q: If there is a close relationship between my son and myself from the very beginning and I continue to communicate with the son in spite of the fact that there’s tremendous peer pressure on him, will this problem arise?
57:53 K: I have a very close relationship with my son, but he goes to school, the pressure of other boys, teachers, pressure of learning is so great, what I say has very little... This is happening, sir.

Q: I know it’s happening.
58:18 K: God, why don’t you see it? If you say to me, I have to educate myself. What for? What is the root of my desire to educate myself?
58:39 Q: The fact that I’m aware.

K: No, no, what is the cause, what is the significance of educating myself? What does it mean?
58:53 Q: To discover something for yourself as distinct from the usual learning process, which is passing on information, or what you should be doing, as distinct from finding out for oneself what needs to be done.
59:16 Q: If you take the responsibility of educating your son, then you must change your own life, either your own understanding – if it’s possible to change your way of life, which is much more difficult.
59:30 K: Will my education take a number of years? Will it take a long time? And in the meantime, I’m corrupting my son.
59:45 Q: Corrupting is a very strong word. You have two alternatives – you take upon yourself the total responsibility for educating the boy or use the system and select the parts you think are going to help.
1:00:03 K: Sir, please. You say educate yourself, first. What do we mean by that? I know how to read books and all the rest of it. You’re talking about educating myself psychologically, inwardly. And will that take a long time?
1:00:25 Q: The word implies a period of time in which you learn something.
1:00:30 K: Yes, so to learn, all that, will take time.
1:00:35 Q: That’s what education usually implies.
1:00:37 K: So, educating myself will take time.
1:00:42 Q: I think that’s how we think of it.
1:00:44 K: Is there a shortcut to that? That’s what his point is. Will it take years of struggle, discipline, control, watching, learning – you follow?
1:00:59 Q: If you want to teach your son mathematics, it might take a long time, but if you want him to see the world in a different way, this may not necessarily take time.

K: Tell me. Don’t theorise. Tell me how to educate myself.
1:01:14 Q: If you’ve already decided that you are a selfish…
1:01:17 K: Just let me finish. I want to educate myself. They all tell me, ‘Educate yourself’. And where am I to begin, what does ‘educate myself’ mean? Learn more about myself? Have more knowledge about myself?
1:01:37 Q: That seems to be implied.
1:01:40 K: Which means I have to experience – which is what is happening now. You tell the boy, ‘Don’t smoke’. He says, ‘I must to learn all about it. I must have sex to learn all about it’. Learning means, I have to accumulate knowledge, learn, learn, learn. Is that what you’re advocating?

Q: No, I don’t think so. I’m saying you can only teach him what you yourself understand. You can only teach him to understand the things that you understand, otherwise, you’re left with using the system, which is something you’re trying to avoid.
1:02:30 Q: It seems that educating yourself is perhaps not quite the right word, because wouldn’t that just add to the problem? You’d simply cover up what’s already there with something new.
1:02:40 K: That’s right.
1:02:41 Q: Isn’t it more a question of looking at it and seeing clearly what’s made you what you are?

K: Or I may say, ‘Tell me something that will wipe out all this’. And start afresh.
1:02:58 Q: But your very relationship with the child might have awakened this, said to you, ‘What have I been doing with my life, so far?’ This very caring and affectionate relationship might well be the beginning of a different way of looking at things. You’ve seen that your own life has been conditioned by your parents, possibly, and your education. This might be the first step to make a different way of educating yourself.
1:03:35 K: But Mrs D, I’m in total revolt.

Q: Then, good.
1:03:41 K: Wait, wait, wait, wait, don’t say it’s good or bad. I’m in total revolt with the whole thing.
1:03:50 Q: But when you say that, what occurs to me, is that there’s even a sense of direction in that.
1:03:58 K: I don’t know direction in life. I don’t want a direction in life.
1:04:03 Q: But wouldn’t you say that may be a direction, a deep-seated direction?
1:04:07 K: No, sir. Just a minute, sir. I’m in discontent with the education that’s going on, with the society, with all the structures, all of that – I’m psychologically, totally disgusted with it. I’m in revolt against all that.
1:04:29 Q: But you’re not in revolt against relationships.
1:04:34 K: I may be, because I see I have rotten relationships.
1:04:39 Q: Yes, but you could look at them.
1:04:40 K: I do, that’s why I’m discontented.
1:04:45 Q: But aren’t you really saying because you care for your son, say, I haven’t looked at this properly before?
1:04:53 K: Let’s, for the moment, forget my son. Let’s face this fact that I am discontent with the whole way of existence. I’m burning with this. I’m saying, really, inside, I’m absolutely revolting against all this. And I’ve got a son. Will my revolt help him at all? Or he’ll say, ‘Poor old chap, you’re gaga’ – brush me off.
1:05:45 Q: Or you’ll discourage him.
1:05:48 K: So, I can’t really help him. Apparently. I don’t start with the idea of helping him. I see, from all experience, from all people have told me and what I’ve watched, life is much too strong – life of the community, life of the society is going to smother him. Right? So, I may not want to help him. I love him. I say, ‘I love you, but I’m not going to help you. I don’t know what it means to help you’. Right? But I love you. I am in revolt and I say, ‘What? This revolt doesn’t create anything’. I can’t join the Communist Party, this or that – it’s all finished. You come and tell me, ‘Educate yourself’. You’re telling the child, my son, to educate himself, not only mathematically but psychologically. So, I say, ‘What do you mean by ‘educate yourself’?’ Cultivate my jealousy, my acquisitiveness? Learn all about it and carry on with it? Or is there a totally different approach to all this? That’s my inquiry.
1:07:52 Q: Sir, but if you’ve gone as far as seeing the danger of society and being totally discontented with it, wouldn’t you already be in some state of… wouldn’t a spark of intelligence have been lit in you?
1:08:08 K: I agree, but I’m not that kind of…
1:08:12 Q: Sir, what is the revolt that just does nothing about it? If you really feel the revolt, it brings about a change, otherwise it’s not much of a revolt, and isn’t worth discussing.
1:08:21 K: So, will the revolt help me? No, I won’t use the word ‘help’. Will the revolt transform my way of life?
1:08:36 Q: It must, if it’s a revolt.

Q: Yes, to some extent, it must.
1:08:40 K: Wait, wait, let me finish what I’m asking. So that I’m really a good person, in the sense, I’m a holistic person, not broken up, not contradicting and all that. I’m a whole human being, without any cracks in it.
1:09:03 Q: Sir, that’s going a bit too far.
1:09:10 Q: Aren’t most of us are still in the state of seeing something’s wrong but not wanting to give it up, wanting to hold on to it.
1:09:16 K: I want to go very far, because I don’t want any of this.
1:09:20 Q: But you’ve got to start somewhere, Krishnaji, so you could see some of the false things that you have lived, and you could start saying, ‘I see that’ and that’s the end of it.
1:09:34 K: What are you trying to tell me?
1:09:38 Q: Something has awakened you to feel that you are discontent with everything...
1:09:46 K: I have no values.

Q: You have no values. What about goodness?
1:09:54 K: Goodness is not a value.
1:09:56 Q: If you have no values, why are you concerned about your son?
1:09:59 K: Love has no value.
1:10:01 Q: What makes you concerned about your son?
1:10:09 K: No, you’re still thinking in terms of values. I don’t want to think in terms of values.
1:10:17 Q: But why are you discontented?
1:10:22 Q: Because you have values.

K: No. I have no values.
1:10:27 Q: Why are you discontented, as Mary said, Krishnaji?
1:10:30 Q: You see the mess. You see everything’s wrong.
1:10:36 Q: Well, that’s to value something that’s good.
1:10:40 Q: Actually one can see the contradiction in value. Value arises out of the past, perhaps. One sees the contradiction that there one holds many contradictory values. That brings pain. One reviews that and says, ‘I want to get out of this, I want to revolt against it’.

Q: Sir, just going back a little. If I am in a job where I have to compete and fight, and suddenly I see that this is destroying me, and I drop it, wouldn’t you say that I’ve moved away from it?
1:11:18 K: Yes, yes, yes, all right.
1:11:21 Q: I may still not be a whole person.
1:11:27 K: You may not be a whole person. You are a broken person, and you have children. Then you say, ‘Educate yourself’. Then you may help your son, unfortunately.
1:11:43 Q: But I mean that education obviously mustn’t take time…
1:11:47 K: So, we come to the same point – it mustn’t take time. The whole implication of your question is that. Not only must it not take time with me, my son must be educated, so that he won’t take time over all this.
1:12:12 Q: I don’t see how you educate someone to not take time over something. Surely one finds that out for oneself. I don’t see how you can educate your son to not take time over something.
1:12:27 K: If I understand this deeply, I’m not sure it won’t affect the consciousness of my son, consciousness of the whole of mankind.
1:12:39 Q: But it’s not just my son.

K: I’ve forgotten my son.
1:12:42 Q: So, it comes back to myself, in the end. The whole process of education comes back to myself.
1:12:49 K: I’m saying, sir, my consciousness is the consciousness of the world.
1:12:56 Q: Myself as part of the whole.
1:13:01 Q: This education, we still don’t really know what we’re talking about. This kind of timeless, psychological education.
1:13:13 K: Sir, don’t let’s use that word, for the moment.
1:13:20 Q: There comes a point where you have to stop being positive. We keep on coming to that point, then we don’t stay there.
1:13:27 K: Yes, that’s what I want to get back.
1:13:29 Q: There’s no incentive in this movement, we’re suggesting, therefore, no preparation of any kind.
1:13:37 K: I’m the result of a thousand years. Right? My brain, mind, heart, my feelings are all drenched in the past. I’m the result of time. If I keep on thinking in those terms, I’ll go on the same cycle for another 10,000 years. So, can I stop, can I break that chain?
1:14:23 Q: Isn’t the first step, even if it’s a very small step, to be aware of oneself, how one is reacting, pay attention to oneself? It is a very small step. Isn’t that some new kind of attitude, which also, perhaps, could bring something to other people?
1:14:48 K: Would you use the word ‘attitude’? Which is a value.
1:14:55 Q: No, I don’t mean in that sense.
1:15:03 Q: Is it not a state of being, that if you love your son, then you have an awareness of their life, and this implies an awareness of your own way you live. And this is mutually established into a sense of awareness. In a way, this is what one is, how one is relating to one’s son and to things, generally.
1:15:46 Q: It seems that my feeling that I love my son is sort of a barrier because it doesn’t let me see that I really do not love him, that I really do not love anybody.
1:16:01 Q: To break this chain which you refer to, one can simply toss out everything. There’s nothing you can rely on and you find all the things by which you’ve been living, are so unsound. One would have to start again, completely.
1:16:23 K: If I change, if I am less confused and so on, will that affect the consciousness of the rest of mankind? If not, what’s the point of my struggling with all this? It becomes only self-centred improvement.
1:16:43 Q: That I see, yes.

K: So – I mustn’t go into it.
1:16:47 Q: Please.
1:16:53 Q: It seems that we’ve already jumped a step there, because one has to find out why one wants to change, and generally we don’t see ourselves as part of the consciousness of man. That seems to be quite a step already.
1:17:18 K: I am mankind, mankind is not different from me. The world is not different from me. I am the world and the world is me. To me, personally, that’s an absolute fact.
1:17:39 Q: I don’t think it is for most of us here.
1:17:44 Q: It’s not clear to me why that should be so.
1:17:50 K: Why that is so?

Q: Yes, it’s not clear to me.
1:17:53 K: That’s fairly simple. I suffer, I am confused, uncertain, jealous, anxious, lonely, so is the man down there. Right? He may live a thousand miles away or very close to me. He goes through the same psychological problems as I do, somewhat modified, somewhat changed, but we’re standing on the same ground. He may be taller, may be dark, purple – that’s irrelevant. But psychologically, we are on the same ground.
1:18:42 Q: There is this subtle intrusion because I feel that I am individual.
1:18:46 K: I know, I know, that’s one of our miseries.
1:18:50 Q: But we’re still on the same ground with that, so that’s a trick.
1:18:54 K: So, my consciousness is the consciousness of the rest of humanity. To me, that is a burning reality, it’s not just a theory, an ideal, something to work for.
1:19:20 Q: But changing your consciousness doesn’t change the consciousness of the man living 8,000 miles from you. If you change your individual consciousness, it doesn’t change the consciousness of somebody quite separate.
1:19:36 K: The consciousness of that man living a thousand miles or nearby is like my consciousness. But I’ve been so educated, conditioned to think I’m a separate entity. Which I say is an illusion. You may dispute it. Let’s argue about it, let’s talk about it, but this is so – psychologically, we are similar. And if I live a confused life, I am sustaining that common consciousness. So, if I can step out of that, I am affecting the whole of consciousness. You can work this out.
1:20:35 Q: Is my hearing that enough to make it a burning fact?
1:20:40 K: No, of course not.

Q: Then what else is needed?
1:20:44 K: Then we have to ask how do you listen to anything? Is it just an idea or you’re listening with your – you follow?
1:20:56 Q: Perhaps an easy approach – ‘easy’ is relative – would be to realise that the society is the sum of all the individuals. The behaviour of the society is the sum of the behaviour of all.
1:21:12 K: So, you’ve pointed that out to me, but I don’t feel it.
1:21:19 Q: This is the problem with education. I hear it and yet it’s not a living, burning fact to me. I don’t know how to listen, in this special way.
1:21:30 K: So, what are you going to do?

Q: How do I tell the son?
1:21:35 K: You’re my son. No, sorry! You’re my son. How am I going to tell you this? Will you listen to me?
1:21:47 Q: Maybe not.
1:21:50 K: Not ‘enough’ – will you listen to me? Or you say that’s just an idea.
1:21:59 Q: Yes, but Krishnaji, love isn’t a thing you can teach. Is it possible to realise that, when there’s no love?
1:22:08 K: It’s up to you. Then how do I get love? Then how do I have this terrible thing called love?
1:22:17 Q: Krishnaji, if you are in total revolt against all of the world, that is you and everybody else, how is it that you are in revolt? Because you are that that you are revolting against.
1:22:32 K: I only used that temporarily.
1:22:40 Q: It seems to me you are suggesting that for millions of years we’ve been progressing and moved along with a momentum, and that there is another dimension of momentum, and this, in some way, will release us from the confusion and fix we’re in. I feel you have in your mind some feel for this different direction.
1:23:18 K: Sir, how am I to change so immediately? That’s the whole question. If you allow me time to change, you know what happens. I’m violent, and if I think in terms of time, of change, I’ll continue being violent all the time, hoping someday I’ll be wrong, without violence. So, is there a way of looking which is not clothed in time? I have been trained, educated, conditioned. Tradition says you must have time.
1:24:18 Q: I felt like saying to you I want time to think about it.
1:24:33 Q: Most of us have a desire to change.
1:24:37 K: No, I have no desire. Oh, no. Desire to change is the worst form of change.
1:24:44 Q: This what we do. When there’s a need to change, there’s a very different attitude of mind, isn’t there?
1:24:51 K: If you desire to change, it’s not change.
1:24:59 Q: When you talk like that there’s a certain intonation. When I listen to you talk, there’s a certain intonation, but there seems to be irresistible pressure, for thought to enter that and change it into something completely different, to say, ‘I don’t understand what you’re saying’. What is it that actually is aware of that process that says something, that says that to you?

K: That’s right, sir. We’re all thinking in terms of time. You understand, sir? I will learn about myself, I must educate myself – all implies time. I am asking – I am selfish, all the rest of it – is there some action or no action that would cut the whole thing?
1:26:14 Q: But, sir, you’re talking about a process. A process naturally happens over a period of time.
1:26:21 K: Process means time. No, I mustn’t go into it.
1:26:29 Q: Sir, all we know is continuity. Can we go into that, what gives the continuity?

K: I can’t hear. Louder.
1:26:39 Q: All we know is continuity. Could we go into that?
1:27:01 Q: Is it the continuity of evil in society that we want to discuss?
1:27:12 Q: Well, as David suggested, one has an intimation when one has a degree of sensitivity to the whole problem that one’s consciousness is humanity’s consciousness, so whatever the continuity, whether it’s mine or yours, it doesn’t really matter, it’s continuous, and it’s an aberration because it stops me relating to my fellows and the world. I wonder if we could possibly get to what gives it continuity.
1:27:59 K: Sir, could I put it this way? I’m conditioned. That conditioning has taken time. I’ve been brainwashed, if you like to put it that way, for 2,000 years, to be a Christian, to believe in this – you know, all that. And it’s so deeply rooted in me, that I’m still frightened. Though intellectually, I throw away the religious nonsense, deeply, I still fear going to hell – suppose. And can that fear be immediately wiped away? That’s my problem. Not take time, years, investigating, analysing, going to this person, that person. Not allowing anybody, not depending on anybody. Here I have this problem, and to resolve it immediately.
1:29:21 Q: I can see in the continuity dissipation of energy.
1:29:25 K: No – I’m putting a question, don’t ‘dissipate energy’ or anything. Here is a question. I am conditioned as a Brahmin, born in India, with all the – etc. That conditioning has been going on for 3,000 years. And that conditioning has made a special quality of mind which says, ‘I’m a Brahmin, superior, I’m much more intellectual’.
1:30:00 Q: But it brings a sense of crisis, inevitably.
1:30:02 K: This is my conditioning. That conditioning I see has brought about tremendous misery in the world – because you’re a Christian, I’m a Buddhist, this and that. So, I ask myself, can this conditioning be dissolved without thinking in terms of time? That’s all my question.
1:30:35 Q: I wonder if we are allowing for sufficient length of the conditioning. You speak of 2 or 3,000 years. Sociologists today say conditioning goes back millions of years and is present in genetic information. The question was raised, why your son should want to join the pack. Perhaps, this is a part of primate conditioned behaviour. We perhaps have to look further back into this question of root cause, into this very fundamental conditioning. Perhaps a basic question that’s always been posed by religious people, the question whether man is basically unregenerate.
1:31:26 K: Yes, sir.
1:31:29 Q: Christians would speak of original sins.
1:31:32 K: Original sin – quite.
1:31:36 Q: I’d like to ask a question. Why is it that we don’t see that this way of functioning is destroying our brain? There’s such a tension inside. It’s almost physically even, one can sense it.
1:31:56 K: We can give different explanations why human beings don’t change. Ten different explanations. What? They are just explanations.
1:32:09 Q: It’s not so much why they don’t change. Why are we not aware of the destructive tension in our brain?
1:32:18 K: When one puts the question ‘why’, then you’re looking for a cause. Right? The discovery of the cause may take time. You will say one thing, he’ll say another, I’ll say something else, so we’ll all be fighting over the cause.
1:32:46 Q: Twice in our conversation, we’ve come to a question, can there be an instantaneous ending, a cutting of something? A timeless… We keep wondering off. I don’t know if we know how to even approach a question like that.
1:33:06 K: Don’t approach it.

Q: Well, you ask it and what does one do with it?

K: Just look. You tell me that – what? – attachment is dangerous, corrupts. You tell me that. I see your logic, I accept your logic, I see what you’re saying is true, but I’m attached at the end of that.
1:33:38 Q: It’s not sufficient.

K: I am still attached.
1:33:46 Q: I think you need some sort of deep crisis to have that…
1:33:49 K: Then I’ll wait for time. I don’t want time to dissolve my problem. Time won’t dissolve my problem.
1:34:04 Q: But this crisis is perhaps not induced by time. It could be induced by some shock – suddenly you understand the thing.
1:34:13 K: All right, why doesn’t it take place now?
1:34:16 Q: It could take place now. Perhaps I’m not sensitive enough.

K: Then what? You follow?
1:34:21 Q: But doesn’t that come back to the question, if I may put it? Doesn’t that come back to what it means to actually be attentive? I don’t know whether I’m jumping.
1:34:38 K: I’m not seeking a cause. I wonder if you understand that.
1:34:45 Q: Would you say the notion of process is itself disorder?
1:34:59 K: You tell me attachment is corruption. You explain to me very logically, the whole explanation. I listen to it. I don’t ask, ‘Why don’t I change?’ My first question – I won’t ask that. I’m still attached. I don’t ask, ‘Why don’t I let go?’ If I ask why, I am seeking a cause. Therefore, what has a cause has an end. Right? So, I won’t look at the cause. You will tell me that the cause is that and that and that. I won’t do any of that. I know I am attached. I have listened to you, listened to you logic, your clarity, I say, ‘Yes, that is perfectly true.’ But at the end of it, I am still holding on. Just listen. I am still holding on. That’s all I know. Please listen. That’s all I know. I’m not interested in ending it, I’m just holding on to that. I see I’m holding on. I won’t ask why I am holding on, but it is just I am that. I think it is disastrous to ask what is the cause – for myself, I’m not telling you to accept this. The universe has no cause. We have causes. If I can not think in terms of cause, time. Then I am attached. That very reality of ‘I am attached’ operates. I don’t have to do a thing.
1:38:15 Q: You say that your eyes become open to your attachment, at an instant. You must forgive me. You were speaking of Christianity. The history of Christians has given many examples of this instantaneous what they call descent of the grace of God.
1:38:39 K: Yes, I know.
1:38:41 Q: They said that was instantaneous.

K: Yes, sir. But I’m not sure whether it’s a partial insight – you follow? – a partial descent, to use that word, or a total descent.
1:39:11 Q: I agree.
1:39:13 Q: It’s surely analogous to a system reaching a critical mass and then changing its state completely. This analogy to physics really brings out the fact that a lot of physicists today are very much interested in the questions of changes of consciousness we’re talking about. Of course, Professor Bohm himself who is very much associated with this. There’s an analogy in physics that quantum leaps can occur. That there can be sudden changes in the state of a system, and that it can leap without obvious cause into a new state. The reason why a lot of physicists are interested in consciousness research is that they see this analogy as relevant.
1:40:07 K: All the psychiatrists are concerned with the cause.
1:40:14 Q: That’s why psychiatrists and psychology lags behind what physical scientists are interested in.
1:40:23 Q: But the quantum leap is always preceded by a process leading to it, the build up of various energies combined.
1:40:34 Q: I mentioned the point of reaching the critical mass.
1:40:37 Q: But we are talking about time, again.
1:40:40 Q: Krishnaji’s suggesting, perhaps the process itself is in question.
1:40:54 K: We all have partial descent of God, or whatever you like to call it, insight. Partial insight. We all have it, occasionally. But the question is whether, if it is partial it’s never... It’s partial. Out of that partiality, we do all kinds of things. But if there is a total insight, or total whatever it is, then the whole thing is changed.
1:41:43 Q: You reminded me of the fact that anti-matter and matter have to come together and disappear. It’s as though there was a principle being able to make our conditioning go away by living in the moment which would indeed be an answer to an education.
1:42:14 K: Sir, shouldn’t we stop now? It’s five minutes past. Or do we continue? Stop? Yes, alright.