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BR82DSS2.1 - Love has no hurt
Brockwood Park, UK - 3 October 1982
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.1



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first discussion with teachers and students at Brockwood Park,
0:08 1982.
0:11 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:19 Questioner: Sir, I wonder if we could talk about violence and killing. There is so much of that going on today.
0:32 K: So much...?
0:34 Q: So much of that going on nowadays.
0:37 K: Violence?
0:38 Q: And killing and all that.
0:43 K: Anything else?
0:46 Stephen Smith: We might talk about cooperation.
0:49 K: Cooperation. Anything else?
1:01 Scott Forbes: Well, sir, for most of the students Brockwood is brand new, so perhaps we could just talk generally about education, about why Brockwood was brought into being and things of a more general nature.
1:28 K: All right, sir. First of all, this is not a sermon so don’t get bored with it. I wonder what’s going to happen to the future generation. We are the… we are going, but you are coming. Right? You are the coming generation. The world is in front of you with all the ugliness and the marvellous earth, the beauty of a lovely morning like this; and what is the future of humanity, which is: what is your future? This is an important question, I think, to ask. You will have here at Brockwood proper kind of education academically, A-Level and O-Level and all the rest of it, taking up various subjects; probably you’ll be very proficient at it, capable, and is that the future of all of us: academically very well-prepared, doctors, engineers, electronic experts, architects, biologists and so on, physicists - is that all? You understand my question? Is that what Brockwood is preparing you for, to become very efficient, full of knowledge, to be a technician in various fields, either as an artist, engineer or a marvellous gardener, which probably you won’t like. So what is the future of not only you, if I may point out, but also the future of mankind of which we are part? What is the future of America - not the continent, not the beautiful land, but the people who live on it? Not the people… not the earth of England, that is green, rich earth, but the people who live on it. Europe, Asia, India – what is going to happen? What’s going to happen to you will happen to the world. What you are, you are going to create the new generation. That’s so obvious, isn’t it? Would you agree to that? If you are merely concerned to be a good, first-class physician, engineer, book-keeper, businessman and so on, there are millions of people like that in the... on the earth. I’m not depressing you; I’m just stating facts. There are first-class doctors, surgeons, first-class engineers, expert... – what? – computers, experts. Is this what Brockwood is preparing you for? Or there is something much more greater, far more important than merely academically being trained, which one cannot deny, which is necessary, to be academically well-trained, having good academic brain. And is that all? The world as one observes is full of violence. There’s a kidnapping every day somewhere or other, throwing bombs, killing for some idea and are preparing for war. You know all this, the latest destructive machinery of war. Right? Do you agree to all this?
8:00 Q: Yes.
8:01 K: Won’t you sit down there? Then I have to move. I hope you don’t mind.
8:19 Q: No.
8:20 K: So you’re going to face all that. That is the human character, human nature, which is… which lies under all the academic training. You understand what...? Right? I may be first-class technician in certain department, but inwardly, inside me I’m boiling with rage, hatred, anger, ambitious, driving, aggressive, my country at any cost, my ideals, what I want to do is more important than anything else, I must fulfil, I must do my thing. You understand all this? Is this what Brockwood is helping you to become, to face the world? Not just be concerned with your academic training and… a job which will give you. And that is too becoming very, very difficult in the world. There are nearly four million unemployed in this country. In the economic world, it also… there is recession, poverty, immense poverty of which most of you don’t know. Go to India, go to a small village - and there are thousands and thousands of little villages in India, not the big towns - there you see poverty, completely naked poverty. And what is your response to all this? Will you cooperate with all that, with violence, each one is doing his own thing, only concerned with his job, with his technical capacity, his little family? Please do think about all these things. Every country, however poor, backward it is, they are preparing for war, getting armaments. India, which is terribly poor, just now bought millions and millions of armaments from France and Russia, America. You know all this, don’t you? Each nation for itself as each person is for himself. So what are you… how is Brockwood, if I may ask, preparing you to face all this? The whole world is… you have to face: poverty; the extraordinary affluence of certain countries, certain people; plenty of food, in the other countries no food at all, one meal a day and even that insufficient. This is not depressing. These are facts. Facts can never be depressing or optimistic. It’s like that. The world is like that: brutal, cunning, full of anxiety, hatred. You know all that. So I’m asking: how are you going to face all this? If you are merely trained academically to be excellent and neglect the other side of it completely, that is, to be aware of the world, what is happening there, your response to the world, how you will act in front of violence - will you also be violent? Will you also be nationalistic, separative? You know, Brockwood is meant to be a very serious place. I mean by serious: concerned with all these problems, not merely the academic side of it, the human side of it which includes the academic side, but the human side of generosity, kindliness, affection, love, all that. Will you cooperate with violence? Will you join this whole movement of nationalistic, restricted, isolating groups? Please, do think of all these things. I don’t know who will talk to you about all these things here. As long as we are here we’ll talk about this, but we’ll be gone at the end of the month. Same in India, we go to various schools and give public talks and so on, they have also to face all these things. So we ought to talk over together: what is it to cooperate? When one knows what it is to cooperate then one will also know when not to cooperate. Do you understand this? So we ought to talk over, as it was suggested, about cooperation. Are you interested in all this? Or am I just talking...? (Laughs)
16:38 Q: No, but I have a little problem, because you talk about affection and love, but I don’t feel it really here.
16:58 K: Wait, wait; find out first. First find out, if I may suggest, what it is first to cooperate. Not say there is no love, there is no affection. May or may not be; but one has to inquire.
17:23 Q: Yes, sure.
17:26 K: So let’s inquire; not say one thing or the other. To have an inquiring mind, which means sensitive mind, not merely intellectual, capacity to... but the feeling of it, the… to have great sensitivity. Now, let’s go into it, shall we? We are a group of people here, a small community - right? - a small community of people who are committed to a certain kind of education, academic and some other factors that create a human being to be whole, complete. And will you cooperate with that feeling of working together? Working together, not for some idea, not for some principle or for some person, but the feeling of cooperation. You see the difference? The feeling of it. I wonder if you… Right? Have you got that feeling? Not we must do things together to have a good school, but the feeling of wanting to cooperate. Have we? Would you kindly discuss this with me?
19:45 Q: We usually don’t have it.
19:54 K: Why?
19:56 Q: Because one is concerned with oneself, basically.
20:02 K: No, I know. Don’t… Go slowly. Why don’t we cooperate? You understand? There is United Nations - right? - they all say, ‘We must cooperate,’ but they don’t - right? - because each nation says, ‘I am concerned with myself.’ Though they talk about united, in reality it doesn’t exist. So why don’t we have this feeling of wanting to cooperate with people? Not be forced – right? – because I may cooperate because you reward me or I may cooperate because you punish me. That is happening in Russia and other parts of world. So why is it that human beings out there in the world and here in this small community, why don’t we have this feeling?
21:30 Brian Jenkins: Well, Krishnaji…
21:31 K: Ah... no; inquire. Yes, sir?
21:34 BJ: I was saying, supposing I’m a student. I come to Brockwood, I want to cooperate, but then maybe someone speaks to me roughly and I feel hurt.
21:43 K: I’m not talking of being hurt or… - the feeling of it and to sustain that feeling.
21:49 BJ: But then I get hurt...
21:52 K: Ah, no, there is no question of hurt. I want to cooperate. I may get hurt, but I push that aside. But I’m talking of the feeling of cooperation, like the feeling of anger, jealousy. Why don’t we have it? You suggest, sir, that we are too self-centred; we are concerned with ourselves. Right? Right?
22:27 Q: Yes.
22:28 K: Therefore how can you cooperate with me or with somebody if each one of us is… It’s not possible. Right? Is that one of the causes? Please, discuss with me; exercise your brain.
22:50 Q: Well, sir, can you cooperate without a definite understanding of what you’re cooperating about?
23:04 K: Ah... not cooperation about something but the feeling of cooperation. You...? This is so simple. I may want to cooperate with you because we have to mow the lawn or build a house or play football, but it is cooperation with regard to something. But I am… we are talking about cooperation itself like a flame, like affection, like being kind. Why haven’t you got it? If you… Perhaps you have it.
23:47 Q: Because all our upbringing has been against that; it’s been for ourselves; it’s...
23:56 K: Yes. That’s… So that is one of the causes; perhaps that’s the major cause. And when there is this self-isolating of being concerned with oneself, how can you love somebody? Right? So will you say there is no love here?
24:25 Q: I just never see an expression of it.
24:32 K: Wait. You… I may have love, but you want me to show it in your way.
24:40 Q: Pardon?
24:41 K: I may have this affection, but you may want me to show it in a particular way.
24:48 Q: No, it’s just a kind of looking or...
24:53 K: How we look.
24:55 Q: Yes... (inaudible).
24:57 K: Yes, yes, lady, I understand... Now, do you… does one - I’m not being critical about you, madame, but I’m just saying - does one depend… if one has affection in oneself, does one depend on how one… others look at you or treat you?
25:22 Q: No, it’s the way you treat people.
25:26 K: Yes. I may treat it in one way and also I have my problems. Right?
25:32 Q: Yes.
25:33 K: I’m also frightened, proud, irritated; I have my problems as each one has in this unfortunate world. And I meet you. At that moment, I may be so anxious about something that I can’t show it to you. But you say I have no affection.
26:04 Q: No, but I think if you have real affection it’s something that even if you have problems it will show, it will...
26:12 K: Agreed. Now, is that so here? Let’s inquire, that people in this community are so occupied with themselves, with their jobs, with their… whatever they are doing that they have no time or the occasion or the moment when you feel, ‘By Jove, here is a place where there’s really affectionate.’ I’m not saying you are right or wrong.
27:00 Q: No, I know.
27:01 K: We are just inquiring into the causation of a situation in which you say or others say, ‘Here there is just a bunch of dried-up old people.’ (Laughs)
27:17 Q: I didn’t say that.
27:21 K: No, I’m saying it.
27:26 Q: Yes.
27:27 Q: Sir, it seems to me that it all depends on your attitude towards other people; and I can’t pretend others to show that to me. They may or may not have that feeling of affection, say, but if my attitude towards you or towards anyone is different, everything seems to change or seems to be different.
27:54 K: Now, just a minute, sir; go a little further. Do you have this affection at home?
28:02 Q: No.
28:05 K: No?
28:07 Q: I think sometimes we do.
28:13 K: Just inquire, sir. We are inquiring; we’re not stating anything. What do you mean by affection? Let’s go into it. What do you mean by love? Is affection a sentiment?
28:45 Q: No, I don’t think so.
28:47 K: Right. Is affection sentimentality?
28:51 Q: No.
28:54 K: Is affection romanticism?
28:57 Q: No.
28:58 K: No. So what do you mean by affection? To hold your hand? To pat you on the back and say what a marvellous person you are? What do you mean by that word?
29:18 Q: A feeling inside somebody that they genuinely are (inaudible) and concerned about the other person, however the other person is acting.
29:34 K: No, I’m asking – you understand? - we use certain words and I want to be very clear what we mean by these words. I can come and tell you, when you are irritated with me, ‘Oh, you’re a very brutal person,’ but that person at the moment may be irritated about something but he’s really affectionate. Right? So do we overlook that?
30:12 SS: I think very often we react, sir.
30:17 K: That’s... (inaudible).
30:19 SS: That’s... (inaudible).
30:21 K: So I’m asking: has… is… when there is affection is there reaction?
30:28 Q: No, I don’t think so.
30:31 K: No. So just go into it a little more. So we say affection is not romanticism, sentimentality, a mere passing reaction. Right?
30:55 Q: Yes.
30:56 K: And then we say affection is a quality which may be… which may exist but on the surface there is always other currents going on. Right? I meet you and the superficial currents are more dominant than the other. Then you tell me I’m not affectionate. Right? So does affection have any reaction? Can… if I have affection can you hurt me?
31:40 Q: No.
31:43 K: No. You are discovering something, aren’t you? That is, an affectionate person is never hurt. That’s a tremendous discovery, isn’t it?
32:01 Q: Yes.
32:02 K: No, don’t be so casual about it. (Laughs) It’s like discovering an extraordinary jewel. So does it mean that a person who is hurt is not affectionate?
32:31 Q: No, of course not.
32:36 K: No, no; go slow, slow, slow, slow, slow. I have affection for you and you say something very brutal to me. I get hurt. Why? Which is more important? What takes place there? I have affection in the ordinary sense of that word and you come along and say something ugly to me and I feel shocked, irritated, wounded. Right? Why? Go on, tell me.
33:24 Q: Because your concern is you instead of this person for whom you say you have affection.
33:34 K: I’m concerned.... No, I’m asking: why am I hurt?
33:38 Q: Because we’re always comparing ourselves to people, feeling we have to be better than other people.
33:51 K: We just now said where there is affection it is not possible to be hurt. Right? You agreed to that.
33:59 Q: Yes.
34:00 K: So are you… can I hurt you?
34:04 Q: I don’t think so.
34:07 K: No, don’t be speculative about it. Either it is so or it is not so.
34:15 SS: When one is hurt the past comes into play in some sense.
34:17 Q: If you say something ugly to me and I get hurt it’s because I think I’m something and you said I’m something else, so I don’t like that. So you are saying something which is different from what I think I am and then I get hurt.
34:43 K: Sir, but we just now said too, sir, that where there is affection there is no hurt (laughs). Right?
34:52 Q: Yes.
34:53 K: (Laughs) So you are contradicting yourself. Right?
34:59 SS: Well, there seems to be a contradiction in the notion that one has deep affection and yet on the surface there are things like anger, jealousy and irritation operating.
35:16 K: Yes, so let us distinguish. On the surface we may be irritated and so on, but if there is deep waters of this quality of affection, then that superficial reaction disappears very quickly. Right?
35:36 SS: But the question is: it is there.
35:40 K: Now, that’s what I’m questioning.
35:42 SS: Not that, you know, it may disappear quickly but nevertheless it is there.
35:46 K: I am questioning if we have affection. Sir, I’m not... looking at anybody; I’m just asking that question: if we really love somebody. You understand what I’m talking about? That is, I love somebody because he gives me food; I love somebody because he gives me sex; I love somebody because he comforts me – right? - I love... and so on and so on and so on. Is that love? This is a very complex problem - you understand? - it isn’t just a casual or a Sunday morning talk. This requires tremendous inquiry. What is love? What is… why are human beings hurt? If I’m attached to a person because I love that person – right? – is that love?
37:18 Q: No.
37:19 K: Ah, no; no, don’t say, ‘No.’ (laughs); go into it; see the complexity of it. I am attached to this place because I live here; I live part of the time of my life and I’m attached. What does that mean, to be attached?
37:51 Q: You depend on something to give you satisfaction.
37:59 K: Yes, satisfaction and it’s mine, my room, mustn’t disturb it, nobody must go into it (laughs) it’s my table. You understand? I become neurotic about it and I’m attached to it. I’m attached to a person. What does that mean? Can there be love and attachment at the same time? (Laughs) You see, that’s what I mean: you’re all being trained academically but you’re not also being helped to think about all these things - right? - to go into it.
39:02 Q: I’ve thought about it a great deal, but I just can’t say it into words.
39:05 K: Ah, no, you may think about it a great deal, you may… but you have... communication is necessary.
39:11 Q: Yes.
39:12 K: Yes. Do we communicate with each other?
39:16 Q: At the moment?
39:18 K: Not now, but do we communicate with each other?
39:28 SS: We talk a lot. (Laughter)
39:37 K: We talk a lot (laughs) - is that communicating? (Laughs) You see, what does communication mean?
39:54 Q: Well, there is... at the verbal level that’s very superficial... (inaudible).
40:04 K: No, let’s be superficial first. What do we mean by communicating? I want to tell you something. I feel something. Do I express it in words and want to tell you about it?
40:24 Q: Partly, yes.
40:27 K: Yes. Why? So first understand: what does it mean to communicate, to commune with somebody? I may... talk to my wife or to my husband or to my girlfriend and so on, but I don’t talk to others; I have no feeling of communicating. Right? Do you… I mustn’t go in… This is too... Or you only talk to people with whom you feel sympathetic? I talk to my friend, nobody else. I talk to my friend about my problems, my this and that, but I’m shy to talk to strangers. I’m shy to talk to a group like you because you’re all so clever – right? – so well-educated and I feel, ‘By Jove, this… a group like this I can’t face,’ so I withdraw. So one has to find out very carefully what we mean by communication. Do you ever – ever - reveal your thoughts to somebody, reveal your feelings?
42:21 Q: Yes.
42:22 K: Ah? You do?
42:25 Q: Yes.
42:26 K: And will he listen to you while you are telling your… about your feelings?
42:32 Q: Yes.
42:34 K: Then is that communication?
42:39 Q: I think that there must be a certain freshness.
42:48 K: Now, just a minute, sir. You are the only two people that are talking to me, and he and that girl up there, nobody else. People like Shakuntalaji, she has known me for the last thirty years, not a word... (Laughter)
43:09 K: ...but she’ll talk to her friend. Not that I want her to talk to me, please (laughs). So just go into this problem. It’ll help to cultivate your brain. Why you talk to somebody about your problems and why you don’t talk to another at the same… not about… have the same feeling of communicating. You understand what I mean?
43:49 Q: I think because if... you may feel that you’re able to talk to one person because you feel you can trust him or her, but you might not be able to trust another person.
44:06 K: So you only talk to people whom you trust.
44:10 Q: If it’s something... (inaudible).
44:13 K: Wait; go into it - very personal, whom you trust - right? - who you feel he won’t betray you; he won’t say things against you; he won’t repeat what you’re saying.
44:39 Q: Yes.
44:40 K: So you treat him as a friend whom you trust. Right? That is a limited communication, isn’t it?
44:56 Q: Yes, very.
44:57 K: Very limited.
44:59 Q: Very limited.
45:00 K: But you don’t have the feeling - do you? - of communicating.
45:05 Q: No.
45:08 K: Why?
45:10 Q: Because there’s mistrust.
45:14 K: No. Sir, look, I want to communicate with you about violence; I want to talk over with you. Right? And I say, ‘Are you violent? Am I violent?’ I want to communicate about it, talk about it.
45:47 Q: Have a dialogue.
45:48 K: Dialogue, go into it. Are you willing to go into it?
45:52 Q: Yes.
45:53 K: No, no, so that you and I expose ourselves: that I am violent under certain circumstances and you say, ‘Yes, I agree with you,’ you are also under certain... so we begin to have verbal communication first - right? - using words which we both of us understand. Then there is another kind of communication - isn’t there? - non-verbal, which is a gesture, a look, a shake of the head, a wave of the hand. So there is verbal communication, non-verbal communication and if… there is a communication in which both of us are silent and look at the same thing silently. Right? Right? You follow all this?
47:06 Q: Yes.
47:07 K: Now, are you doing... do you commune that way with anybody?
47:12 Q: Yes.
47:15 K: Do you, actually? Go into it very carefully. Look at it.
47:18 Doris Pratt: Isn’t it difficult to find someone who is ready to listen, because there’s listening?
47:30 K: No, I say to my friend, I say, ‘Do listen to my problem.’
47:34 DP: But nobody wants to.
47:36 K: Ah, I want… here... I said I want to communicate with you at this present moment; I want to communicate with you about what I’m feeling, which is, a world in which I’m living has become so monstrously neurotic, I want to discuss it. Am I becoming neurotic? I don’t mind discussing that with anybody. But, you see… but we don’t feel that way. I don’t mind discussing with… having a dialogue with somebody who happens to listen to me. I say, ‘Let’s… look, this is my problem. Let’s solve it. It’s also your problem. Let’s sit together, go through it, finish with it, not carry on and on and on.’
48:40 Q: But usually what we want is comfort about our problems, someone to agree with one, not to solve the thing.
49:02 K: I’m talking… I’m suggesting this feeling of communication. Not chattering - I don’t mean that - talking, talking, talking endlessly, but the feeling as of... the feeling of cooperation, the same feeling wanting to say, ‘Look, I don’t mind talking about the problems which confront me and confront somebody else,’ having a good dialogue.
49:28 Q: But you can only really communicate if the other person shares your feeling.
49:35 K: What, sir?
49:36 Q: If the other person shares, has a feeling in... they are feeling in common with you then you can talk about this.
49:47 K: Which means what? That I haven’t stuck to my opinions - right? - and you won’t stick to your opinions. We both are investigating opinions, whether they are necessary, whether they are harmful, what is the use of it and so on. But will you listen to me? Or you say, ‘My God, I’ve heard him a hundred times before; he’s a bore.’ So look at it carefully. We are… The feeling of cooperation; not about something. Right? The feeling of communication. Do you ever commune with the trees?
50:55 Q: Yes.
50:58 K: By Jove… (laughs). Of an evening when there is clear… without a cloud in the sky, with all the sparkling stars, do you ever look at it all? Do you have a feeling with it? And when you have such a feeling what do you with it? Write a poem about it or store it away in the brain... marvellous feeling of looking at the heavens and the moon and the stars and the shadows and feeling the glory of an evening? Do you put it away and say, ‘Yes, I’ll remember that lovely evening I had’? Do you look at anybody? (Laughs) Look at them - not criticise them; I don’t mean that. To have this feeling of… Don’t you know all this? All right, let’s go into something else. Do you get hurt? I’m not looking at you; only I’m… (laughs). Do you get hurt? You see - just listen, listen, listen - nobody says a word.
53:23 Q: We do, yes.
53:27 K: If you ask me, ‘Do you get hurt?’ to me, you’re right to ask me, haven’t you? I’ll tell you. I don’t mind telling you.
53:39 Q: Do you get hurt?
53:41 K: Ah, wait, wait. (Laughter)
53:45 K: Of course. I’m going to answer it, old boy, I’m going to answer it. ‘Do you get hurt?’ I’m willing to talk about it. Are you?
53:54 Q: Yes.
53:55 K: Are you? Ah, no, you see the way she said it? (Laughs) (Laughter)
54:05 K: It’s a… You understand? I’m not criticizing; it’s your affair. But the feeling of: we’ll talk about it, which is just to get on with it (laughs). (Laughter)
54:19 K: It isn’t a feeling of saying, ‘By Jove, am I hurt? Why am I hurt?’ going into it. You understand? Do you want to go into this? Go into this question of… Because when we are very young we get terribly hurt – right? – at home, schools, colleges, universities, this terrible getting hurt - right? - hurt by the father, mother, husband, wife and so on... (inaudible). Are you hurt? (Laughs)
55:17 Q: I can get hurt, yes.
55:22 K: No, no; of course you can. Are you hurt?
55:29 Q: Now?
55:31 K: No. Have you been hurt?
55:34 Q: Yes, I have been hurt.
55:38 K: Hurt. Why?
55:40 Q: Because…
55:41 K: No, no, look. (Laughter)
55:45 K: (Laughs) Go into it.
55:48 Q: Well, it’s like when, let’s say I’ve been trying to train for an event on a certain date and my coach said, ‘Okay, well, you get on with that for five weeks,’ and then, you know, you think you’re doing very well and it comes up to four and a half weeks and he comes along and says, ‘Right, let’s see how you are doing,’ and you show him and... ‘Right, I’ve done that really well, I’m really excellent, and he says, ‘That’s pathetic. That’s no good. You can’t enter into that. You’re not even... it’s as though you’ve done one week.’
56:32 K: Look, sir, go into it a little more. In your… in the family - not your family - in the family children are scolded - right? - isn’t that… doesn’t that hurt a child? Right?
56:48 Q: Sure.
56:50 K: So you are hurt. From childhood it goes on. Right? Why? You asked me just now if I am hurt. Right? Do you want to know?
57:17 Q: Yes.
57:19 K: Are you just curious?
57:23 Q: No.
57:24 K: Do you really want to know? No, I’m asking this seriously.
57:27 Q: Yes.
57:28 K: First of all: why? (Laughs) Why do you want to know? I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you anything. Why do you want to know if I’m hurt?
57:38 SS: I think people are intrigued by the suggestion that someone may not be hurt, in fact, knowing very well that they are.
57:53 K: Yes. But I’m going to show you something.
57:56 Q: It’s probably envy. Because people... everyone does get hurt so I say it can’t be done, another person doesn’t.
58:08 K: (Laughs) I have never been hurt. You don’t have to believe it. (Laughter)
58:26 K: The fact is I have never been hurt. People have called me all kinds of names - politely, impolitely, roughly... - I have lived with people who are brutal and all the rest of it. I’ve never been hurt.
58:52 Q: All your life?
58:56 K: All my life. You don’t have to believe it. You might say, ‘Well, he’s a little bit... (Laughter)
59:02 K: ...a hole in the head…’ Now, you don’t… You see, I have stated something; you don’t inquire into it. You say, ‘Well, he’s a crazy man or is he… he’s not telling the truth.’ You don’t say, ‘Now, why do you… why aren’t you hurt?’ Doesn’t that… isn’t that important to find out? You don’t ask the question. I’m asking you.
59:33 Q: When you said nobody has ever hurt you, do you mean physically or mentally?
59:46 K: Physically they have hurt me.
59:48 Q: Physically.
59:49 K: They have beaten me up (laughs). (Laughter)
59:52 Q: But not mentally.
59:57 K: You see, you’re not going into it. Why do you… You don’t ask me, ‘How… are you crazy?’ (Laughter)
1:00:15 K: ‘Are you lying? Are you a hypocrite when...?’ You don’t ask. You don’t inquire. You see, you don’t communicate. You understand?
1:00:29 Q: Yes.
1:00:32 K: Why don’t you? You are… It shows… either it shows such a thing is impossible, therefore he’s a silly person, it’s not important; or you say it’s a strange phenomenon of a man which is not… who has not been hurt; it’s a most extraordinary phenomenon. Right? How does that happen? He’s a freak? Or he’s so hard inside, completely enclosed, you… nothing can hurt him. You understand? You are not asking these questions. Please, forgive me for pointing out: cultivate your brain; not just become academically good, but the capacity to think, to go into, inquire.
1:01:59 Q: Sir, were you just born that way... (inaudible)? (Laughter)
1:02:09 K: Yes, quite right, sir.
1:02:10 Q: I mean... (inaudible).
1:02:11 K: So, you see, you are beginning to inquire. I am concerned – ah, not... - I am trying to point out, if I may, that you’re not… your minds are not inquiring.
1:02:25 Q: Why is it you don’t get hurt?
1:02:33 K: How is it, sir? You come to me and say, ‘I’ve never been hurt in my life,’ and I say, ‘What... how extraordinary.’ That’s my first reaction.
1:02:45 Q: Yes, and I want that.
1:02:49 K: I say, ‘By Jove, what extraordinary…’ I… Then I say, ‘By Jove, is he telling the truth? Is he trying to be clever?’ You follow? Then I begin to inquire: how does it happen that you have lived for eighty years, as I have eighty-seven years, and not hurt? I say, ‘By Jove, tell me: how does it happen?’
1:03:12 Q: My guess is you don’t react to…
1:03:22 K: No, find... no, find out, inquire.
1:03:31 Q: It may be that when a child is... a little child is so fresh that he may just overcome that, just he doesn’t get hurt and then later in life you just are very much aware of what people say to you or do to you and then you just don’t get hurt.
1:03:50 K: They have said to me terrible things - right? - and also they have flattered me up to the heavens. You understand? ‘What a marvellous talk that was.’ ‘Oh, what a beautiful person you are.’ ‘Blah, blah, blah, blah’ both ways - you understand? - flattery and insult. Now, why does a human being who says, ‘Look, I’m not affected by either of these two,’ he must be cuckoo.
1:04:20 Q: But it’s natural... (inaudible).
1:04:26 K: Ah?
1:04:29 Q: It is natural to you; it’s not an effort; whereas for us, if someone tells something which is designed to hurt you, your natural reaction is obviously to take it like that. And if you don’t want to be hurt, you have to say, now, why am I comparing and I’m, you know... (inaudible).
1:04:47 K: Yes; yes. I’m asking you now. I’m asking all of you, if I may - I’m not being inquisitive - if I may ask: are you hurt, and why?
1:04:58 Mary Zimbalist: Krishnaji, before you ask that, may one ask you: are we doing something that’s very fundamental here, which is, you make a surprising statement, an extraordinary statement, and we seem to quickly try to find in our own experience and minds what it might have been, our own answer; we don’t…
1:05:24 K: That is lack of communication. That’s what I’m saying.
1:05:27 MZ: We’re looking into ourselves what we already know...
1:05:29 K: That’s right.
1:05:30 MZ: ...try to come up with a likely solution.
1:05:33 K: Yes.
1:05:34 MZ: We’re not trying to find out.
1:05:35 K: That’s what I’m trying to point out. Here is a strange phenomenon and you don’t say, ‘By Jove, how extraordinary; let’s go into it.’
1:05:45 MZ: You’re trained to examine if we haven’t got an answer first before we go into another question.
1:05:59 K: Does it mean that we have… we are not cultivating the capacity to inquire? Or our brains have been so accustomed to memory, memorising - that’s what you’re doing academically.
1:06:17 MZ: Don’t we also think that that is a part of inquiry, that we must first examine what is in our own head?
1:06:26 K: That’s just it. You see, are your brains becoming mechanical?
1:06:37 Q: Yes.
1:06:39 K: I’m asking... Now, inquire into it.
1:06:47 Q: All our previous education has been towards... to make your brain (inaudible).
1:06:54 K: That’s mechanical.
1:06:55 Q: Like a robot.
1:06:57 K: Like robots. You’re acting like robots – that’s what I’m objecting to.
1:07:04 Q: I’m very sorry. (Laughter)
1:07:08 K: (Laughs) You don’t say, ‘Look, am I hurt? Yes, I am hurt. Why?’ You don’t push. You say, ‘Yes, I’m hurt, that’s natural; that is, every human being....’ You accept it, which is mechanical.
1:07:22 SS: There seems to be a difficulty in that it seems to be the most sensitive people who are the most hurt, in fact.
1:07:27 K: Of course.
1:07:28 SS: If you take somebody who is rough and crude and he doesn’t seem to... (inaudible).
1:07:41 K: He doesn’t care, of course.
1:07:45 SS: But if you get someone who is highly sensitive, maybe a poet or an artist or a scientist, he may get... he seems to be hurt much more easily.
1:07:59 K: Yes. The person who is very sensitive gets easily hurt.
1:08:04 SS: Yes.
1:08:05 K: Now, go… let’s inquire (laughs). Is vulnerability – right? – to be vulnerable, such a mind, will it be affected by hurt? Can a mind or a brain that is highly vulnerable, highly sensitive...?
1:08:34 Shakuntala Narayan: Sir, I think one needs to know the meaning of vulnerable.
1:08:42 K: I’ll show it; I’ll go into it.
1:08:48 SN: Because generally vulnerable means, you know, to be hurt.
1:08:52 K: I know; I know; I know; I know. General meaning is to be hurt; to be so sensitive you are shaking with it.
1:08:59 SN: The opposite is... (inaudible).
1:09:01 K: I don’t... to be vulnerable, you know? You see, you don’t stay with words.
1:09:08 SF: But also, sir, if you talk about being sensitive, because if we agree that sensitive people get hurt, then by your saying that you don’t get hurt it would mean that you’re insensitive, which would be hard to wear.
1:09:14 K: Look, Scott…
1:09:17 SF: So I think we’re talking about sensitivity perhaps in a couple of different ways.
1:09:28 K: Look, Scott, would you for a minute just… do you stay with the word vulnerable? Not give it a meaning to it but to have the feeling of vulnerability, see what it means, go into the feeling of that word: to be sensitive. Am I sensitive?
1:10:09 MZ: But are you using the two words synonymously?
1:10:16 K: All right, for the moment I’m… We’ll join you presently. I’ll come to it. I want to feel the word. I want to see what the word conveys to me. Is it a conventional acceptance of a word or am I looking at it afresh?
1:10:44 Q: But, sir, a word is a convention.
1:10:49 K: Of course, a word, sir, word is convention, but we have... our convention, tradition, a word. But the word has now become so conventional but has … I may have... lose the meaning of... the depth of the word. Like marriage, like violence, like God and so on and so on - these are words we throw out. But to say, ‘Well, what does…?’ to feel the word. I don’t know if… You understand what I’m saying?
1:11:30 Many: Yes.
1:11:32 K: Do you feel the word? Which means I stay with the word. I don’t look up the dictionary meaning of it. I can do that later; I can analyse. But to have the smell of the word. You understand? (Laughs) Now, to be vulnerable. Have you ever noticed in the spring a young, fresh, young, tender leaf? It’s extraordinarily vulnerable to the winds. Right?
1:12:18 Q: Yes.
1:12:20 K: And it is strong enough to withstand the winds. Right? Have you noticed this?
1:12:31 Q: Yes.
1:12:32 K: So would you call that vulnerable?
1:12:36 Q: Yes.
1:12:39 K: Which means what?
1:12:43 Q: To be open to something.
1:12:48 K: No (laughs). Look... no. I pointed out a leaf in the spring - tender, young and there is wind, harsh wind - it’s still unshaken, it’s not broken away, but yet it’s vulnerable, isn’t it? You understand? So has the… has not vulnerability the quality of tremendous strength?
1:13:17 Q: Yes.
1:13:18 K: Ah, no, don’t say, ‘Yes,’ - you have discovered it; don’t agree with me.
1:13:25 Q: No, I discovered it myself.
1:13:27 K: Then good. That’s all I’m saying. So where there is vulnerability there is strength.
1:13:35 Q: There can be strength.
1:13:37 K: Ah, no, there is strength. You see?
1:13:39 SS: Which means that by implication the sensitivity that we’re talking about is only partial, of, let’s say, the artist or whatever.
1:14:00 K: Yes.
1:14:02 Q: Sir, would you say that if you come to me and you say or do something to me and instead of just turning away I listen to it or I examine what you say or do to me and it doesn’t hurt me, would you call that vulnerable?
1:14:25 K: Sir, I don’t want to take an incident, but get the feeling of it, sir, first. Words have importance, haven’t they? You can use the word love and say, ‘Yes, I love somebody,’ but when you begin to understand the meaning of that word, go into it, the beauty of it, the strength of it, the freedom of it, the sense of enormity of it. Sir, we talked about cooperation. Have you that feeling? Or each one is so enclosed. I may talk about cooperation but it’s just a word and has not much meaning. We talked about affection. We said where there is affection, love, that cannot be hurt. You know, that’s a tremendous discovery. Because we said, too: do you commune? Do you have communication with another? Do you have communication with the heavens? Not Christian heaven - I’m not talking of... - heavens: the sky, the clouds, the stars, the shadows, the movement of shadows and the leaf and all that, the feeling of it. Not go off into some romantic feeling, but just to look at the enormity of the beauty of the earth. And do you communicate your thoughts with anybody? I’ve known people for thirty years; they hardly communicate with me (laughs). Right?
1:17:34 SN: Twenty years, sir (inaudible).
1:17:35 K: Twenty years? Oh, all right (laughs). (Laughter)
1:17:38 K: Is it that we are ashamed, shy, nervous or say, ‘It’s none of your business what I think, feel’? Of course it’s none of my business, but the feeling of communication, that’s what I’m talking about.
1:17:44 Q: Well, I think that, you know, when we start, I mean, the things that are bothering us, when we start saying them to you – well, I don’t know what it would be like to say them privately – but certainly here, it immediately seems ridiculous a lot of the things that are bothering us, you know; it seems like... and you’ll say something and it’s like a wind that just scatters… (inaudible).
1:18:30 K: You see, I can communicate with my analyst (laughs). You know what analysts are? Psychotherapists; that’s a fashion; I can go to Mr So-and-So and I want to tell him all about myself and analyse myself with him. And I don’t want to go to an analyst. I want to talk to… have a dialogue with my friend; and I know he’ll listen to me and I know he won’t say, ‘Well, what idiot you are, what an ass. Why do you do such things?’ I want… You follow? So, we’d better stop now. Have you learnt something this morning? Learnt, understood something; you captured something which is your own, not mine - have you?
1:20:01 Q: No. I haven’t.
1:20:04 K: Ah?
1:20:05 Q: No, I learnt nothing new.
1:20:07 K: What do you mean, nothing new?
1:20:10 Q: Well, the things we talked about are…
1:20:13 K: Wait, just a minute. You said just now you discovered that where there is affection there is no hurt.
1:20:24 Q: Yes, I knew that before.
1:20:29 K: Ah, no, no. You knew it in the sense, what? That you had affection and you… nobody could hurt you.
1:20:40 Q: Not like that.
1:20:43 K: (Laughs)
1:20:44 Q: Well…
1:20:45 K: I won’t make a gesture; all right (laughs). It is... have you discovered the fact that where there is affection there is no hurt, or you say that theoretically it is so? Which is it? I’m not asking you personally. We can… you can accept a theory, a hypothesis, an idea - right? – say, ‘Yes, a marvellous idea - where there is affection there is no hurt; that sounds very nice, but the fact is I have affection and I’m hurt.’ And in dialogue I discover, by Jove, love has no hurt. That is something in my blood I have discovered, not just a theory. Right? We’d better stop now, don’t you?
1:22:11 Q: Well, I like it.
1:22:13 K: You like this? Good. We’ll have lots more of it.
1:22:16 Q: Yes. (Laughter)
1:22:20 K: Ah, thank you, sir; I’ll take it off.