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BR82DSS2.2 - Self-centredness
Brockwood Park, UK - 10 October 1982
Discussion with Staff and Students 2.2



0:20 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:26 Juan Hancke: Sir, what is compassion?
0:32 K: What is compassion? Anything else?
0:36 Q: Could we speak about the difference between understanding something intellectually and understanding something really?
0:48 K: Understanding something intellectually but understanding much deeper, what is that? Anything else?
1:08 Brian Nicholson: I would like to ask what is the meaning of handicapped.
1:11 K: What, sir? B

H: Handicapped. Children who are born into the world handicapped.
1:18 K: Are you talking about children who are handicapped or most grown-up people who are handicapped intellectually?
1:28 Maurice Wilkins: I thought the first speaker had asked you to talk about passion and I was a bit disappointed to hear it was compassion.
1:36 K: It is compassion, yes. Let's begin, shall we, with: what is it to understand, not merely intellectually, verbally, but something much more deeply. Shall we begin with that? What do you mean by that? When we say we understand something do we merely mean verbally we understand, the meaning of the words? The words which have a common meaning between us – when we use certain words like compassion we know the meaning of that word, that means passion for everything. Now at what level do we understand compassion? Intellectually? Or one feels compassionate for the handicapped, for the people who go to war, for the people who are throwing bombs, for the politicians who are creating wars or supporting wars? When we use that word compassion is it merely a verbal communication, or we really feel very deeply a great sense of sympathy, a great sense of communication, affection, love? Do we feel that? Or merely accept superficial words like compassion – yes, we should be very compassionate – and then forget about it. So would you discuss this? What do we mean by compassion and is it possible to be compassionate under all circumstances? Not to your family only – to the animals, to nature, to other human beings – having deep affection for another. Have we such affection? Have we deep, not self-centred affection? You know the difference? We will go into it a little bit. Do you love anybody? Don't say yes quickly. Do you love your parents? They might scold you, they might tell you what to do – you must not do this, you must not do that – influence you, perhaps occasionally – I hope not – beat you. Do you have this sense of love for your parents, for another? Do I love somebody that way? Or I feel affectionate for my parents or affectionate with somebody, but if I am denied something, if my friend, my family, my parents deny, scold, control, do I reject them? Or do I tolerate them? Or do I put up with it, say, they are much older than me. It is all right, I will tolerate it as long as I can, but when I reach a certain age I am going to skip it. Tell me, please – discuss it. So, when we use the word affection, love, pity, generosity, kindliness – is that part of love, or all that exists when there is love? Are you interested in this?
7:38 Q: Yes.
7:42 K: If you are not interested we will go to something else. Are you really, deeply interested in this, to have such deep affectionate communication with another? Probably not when you are very young or when we are not too young, we have this sense of sensitivity for another, don't we? To be sensitive. You know what that means? Of course, you all do. Sensitive. Are you sensitive? To the nature around us, the sunset, to the clouds in the evening or a dark, misty, rainy morning – are you sensitive to all that? Are you aware of the beauty of this morning? Lovely morning, long shadows after days of darkness and rain and wind, a lovely morning like this, clear, soft air – are you aware of all that? And the leaves turning russet, yellow, red – have you seen all that down there? Isn't that part of affection? Isn't that part of love? See all those yellow leaves, red leaves on the lawn. They have shed and wait for the spring to come another six months later. Are you aware of all this, or we are too much concerned with ourselves? Because we all have problems of some kind or another and all through life we carry on with problems. Right? Either it is the problem of hunger – I hope you will never have that, but if you lived in Asia, in India, you would know it. Unless you belong to some rich, well-to-do family, you know what it is to be hungry. And when you have problems, whether intellectual, scientific, any kind of problem, can there be love? Not problems then affection, problems then affection. You follow what I mean? If there is this constant struggle with problems, can there be affection, can there be love? Or love has no relationship whatever with problems. And can one live in this world – which is so terrible – can one live in this world without any problem, without becoming stupid or careless or indifferent? Can one live without any problems? Would you discuss this? Would you find out or ask or investigate whether it is possible to live without a single problem? Would you inquire into it? Would it interest you? Does it mean anything to you, that question? Whether one can live a really vital, strong, clear life with great affection, etc., and have no problem? Or when problems arise, resolve them immediately and not carry them on day after day.
14:06 Q: Yes, but I think for myself and I think for other people, they are very scared to say something. They are very afraid to say something.
14:22 K: But that is their problem. Can I have a relationship with another and not create a problem out of that?
14:36 Q: Well, I know that it is our problem but I just wanted to say that I think people are interested but they are just too afraid. It is not a matter of no interest, it is a matter that they...
14:48 K: They are afraid not to have problems?
14:50 Q: No, to say something in this discussion.
14:54 K: Ah, in this discussion. What he is saying is we don't discuss because we may be nervous, frightened because there are a lot of people, strangers, and we don't want to expose ourselves too much so we keep quiet and nervous.
15:24 K: All right, if you don't want to discuss – which we shall do perhaps next Tuesday when the students all meet together. Then perhaps we can discuss. But would you kindly follow the investigation or the exploration whether it is possible to live a life in this world – not some kind of fantasy or an imagination or some kind of daydream, romantic – but living here in this world, to have no problem. Would you like to inquire into it?
16:16 Many: Yes.
16:21 K: You know what the world is like, don't you? The threat of war and gathering of armaments and war heroes, killing others. That is one side of it, this terrible thing that is going on. You are aware of it, obviously. And nobody is able to stop it – not a particular kind of war, but war. Organised killing, organised murder in the name of nationality, in the name of God, in the name of peace, in the name of whatever it is – for a principle and so on. You are aware of that, aren't you? And you are also aware of the technological world, aren't you, what it is doing, computers, you know, all that, which are taking over man's work, probably. They are building cars in Japan and other countries with robots and the robots are controlled by computers and so perhaps it may affect our brains, gradually. And socially, morally, everywhere there is conflict, struggling, fighting, ambitious, greedy, and so on – that is the world we live in. And we are asking a question, whether each one of us can live in this world, in this environment, where we have to earn a job, earn a livelihood, perhaps we shall marry, children, sex, money, status, position – that is the world we have to live in, and living in that world can we have no problems of any kind? Go into it, sir. Let's talk about it. Let us look at the map, as it were, of this very complex problem. Problems exist, don't they? I am not talking problems of mathematics or technical problems – they can be resolved, they can be gone into, taking trouble and so on. But I am talking of problems arising in relationship, with my wife, with my parents, with my neighbour, with the world around me. And in that relationship, I am asking myself, I am asking you, whether we can live without a single conflict. Problem means conflict. Right? The meaning of that word 'problem', according to some dictionary, is 'something thrown at you'. A problem is that: a challenge, a thing which you haven't resolved and it comes up, springs up and there it is, you have to meet it. That is a problem, the meaning of that word. Right, sirs? That is the meaning of the word. Agree? That is what the dictionary says: something thrown at you which is a challenge. Right? So can I, can we, living here, meet problems and resolve them? Not carry on day after day, day after day. Some people do, year after year. Oh! You understand? They haven't resolved it so that gradually their brain and their strength is worn out by problems, unresolved. It is like carrying a tremendous burden on your shoulders all your life. Right? Now, is it possible to put away all this burden? Which doesn't mean – or rather, which means that you meet a problem and resolve it immediately. Right? Is this clear? That is, in our relationship with others, whether it is a very, very close relationship or not, in that relationship problems arise. Problems will arise as long as there is no love in that relationship. This is difficult, let's go step by step. In my relationship with my wife, with my parents, with my neighbour – the neighbour may be next door or 10,000 miles away, he is still my neighbour. Right? In that relationship with humanity, with other human beings, can I live without a single problem in that relationship? You have understood the question? Clear?

Q: Yes.
23:58 K: Have you asked yourself that question? Put it to yourself and find out. Don't say it is impossible or it is possible, but move it. So we will go into it. I am married, a father and mother, sisters, brothers, uncles and aunts and nieces and nephews – the whole crowd of family – each one of us wanting to do something for himself. Each one of us says, I must do what I want to do. Right? Are we right? Each one of them and I too say, I must do what I want to do. So if each one of us says, I must do what I want to do, is there a relationship?
25:15 Q: No, there is conflict.

K: Obviously.
25:19 K: Now, when you say, yes, obvious, is that an intellectual or verbal clarity, or real – saying, yes, that is so. You understand my question? You raised that question. Intellectual understanding and understanding in depth. Now, here is a problem. The whole world, that is, every human being in the world, practically, says, I must do what I want to do, and you are doing the same. Right? And there are those psychologists – apart from Dr Shainberg and a few of us – who say, do what you want to do, don't restrain, don't control. Express yourself. Whether it is sex, whether it is anger, whether it is hitting somebody – do it. Get rid of these inhibitions so that you can have perfect peace. There are gurus, teachers like this who say, go ahead, do what you want to do. At the end of it we will love each other. You understand? Now proceed. If each one of us wants he wants and expresses it, what do you create in that relationship? My wife says, I must have – I don't know, God knows what – not a refrigerator, not a dishwasher, but my wife says, don't be so damn stupid, be worldly, have more money, cars, enjoy yourself, drink, and I say, please, I don't want to do all that kind of stuff. So there is conflict between us. So, where each one of us says, I must express myself, do what I want to do, there is going to be conflict in relationship. Right? So what will you do? If you understand that in relationship where each one of us expresses his own desires – and it may be opposite desires – then what will you do? That creates problems in our life. Right, sirs? Agree? That is the whole structure of society, from the top hierarchy of religious leaders down to the most ordinary political leader. Say, well, my country is first. My ideal is first. So, each one of us is doing this and we have created a world by doing this which is constantly in conflict. Right? This is so. I am not saying something extravagant, not true – the world is in conflict, perpetually. So I have to establish a relationship between myself and the world. The world is me because I am also in conflict. I don't know if you see that. I don't separate myself from the world which is in conflict, because I also have this constant battle in myself with my family, with my boss, with my government. You follow? So what shall I do? Go on, sirs, see what you are involved in. This is your future. We are going – we older people we are going, but you are coming. This is the future you have in front of you. You may be highly educated, have a very good job and so on, but this is there in the cellar.
31:06 Q: But if you don't feel something for other people, what will you do?
31:14 K: No, I am not talking of other people, I am talking of having conflict within oneself. You have conflict, I have conflict – suppose. So, we live with conflict, in conflict with each other. Right? That is what we are concerned with, not what others are in conflict.
31:38 Q: No, but you said conflict is created because everybody is thinking about himself.
31:43 K: That is all.
31:45 Q: Yes, but if I only think about myself and I don't have feelings for other people and I have only feelings for myself...
31:53 K: So that is the problem. I am thinking about myself, how I am dressed – I am thinking. I want more money, I want more pleasure, I want better position – it is this constant battle going on. Right? You may not be wanting more physical things but it may be: I must be better, I must achieve something, I must be ambitious. Right? So that is what we are talking about. As long as I am self-centred I must have conflict. Now, this self-centredness is isolation, isn't it? All right, I will explain. If I am self-centred and you are self-centred, as we are, we are separate, aren't we? We are working in isolation. Right? Now take: Britain says, British, British, British. Have you heard recently on the television the Conservative party, the Labour party, all the politicians, the trade union leaders – British, British, British. French, French, French. Indians, Indians, Indians. Muslim, Arab, Jew and so on. So they are all isolating themselves, aren't they, as I am isolating myself when I am self-centred. My wife is self-centred, I am self-centred, my country is isolated, self-centred. Are you following all this or are you asleep? So, where there is self-centred isolation there must be conflict and problems are inevitable. This is a law. Whether you like it or not, this is a law. Like a law in England that says keep to the left when you drive. You can't avoid this, you can't say, I will dodge it. It is a law, that as long as you are self-centred, as you are self-centred when you say, I am British, As I am Indian, As I am Muslim, Jew, Arab – you know, all those horrible things – I must create conflict for others and for myself, economically, socially, every way. Right?
35:09 Q: But if somebody stops to be self-centred to think about themselves.

K: No, not somebody. Let's find out.
35:18 Q: Well, you think if I would stop thinking only about myself I would start loving other people.
35:25 K: I don't say that. Not to be self-centred is one of the most complicated things. Don't just say, I won't be self-centred. It is impossible. Such a statement has no meaning. Say, for instance, I am not self-centred when I say, I love God. God is more important than me. All the saints, the nuns, the monks, Jesus or Krishna or somebody – I have identified myself with that and I think I am free from self-centredness. You see the game I have played? I identify myself with a large country like England or France or India, and I am not self-centred because India is me. I wonder if you understand all this. Do you understand this?

Q: I am not sure.
36:44 K: Now, how shall I explain that?
36:55 Q: Do you mean that you just expand the boundaries but it is still isolation? Do you mean that it is just making the boundaries bigger but it is still isolation?

K: Yes, still isolation.
37:12 K: I have identified myself as a Catholic. You know what that is – I love Jesus, he is the only saviour, Virgin Mary and so on, all the rituals, all the circus that goes on – I am all that. I have forgotten myself. You understand? Do you understand that?

Q: Yes.
37:38 K: I am all that. So I am not self-centred.
37:45 Q: You are.

K: No, just look at it.
37:48 K: I have said, I am all that. But in saying that, I have identified myself with that, but the self-centredness is transformed, but it is still self-centred. Get it?

Q: Yes.
38:12 K: So, I identify myself with a country: England is far greater than me. Which is true. So see what I do? I play tricks with myself.
38:31 Q: It is just the fact of identifying yourself with anything.
38:33 K: Anything – that is it. I identify myself with God, with a Church, or with a country as a politician and so on and so on. It is still a subtle form of my self-centredness. Do you see this?
38:58 Q: If you would identify yourself with all people it would be great then.
39:02 K: With all people?

Q: Yes. With humanity.
39:06 K: Do you want to identify yourself with all people?
39:10 Q: Well, with human beings, just with all humans.
39:15 K: All right, with all human beings. That means what? I am all humanity. Right?
39:22 Q: Yes, kind of.
39:25 K: Yes. Which means what? All humanity is me. I am still self-centred.
39:34 Q: Yes, but then you are concerned with all people so that you love all people...

K: Do you?
39:41 K: If I say, I am all humanity, I am all the world, and because I say it I love all people – do you?
39:49 Q: I am not talking about myself, I am just talking generally.
39:52 K: All right, you are talking generally.
39:54 Q: About a possibility.
39:56 K: About a possibility of identifying myself with humanity. Help me to love humanity – is that it? You know, all these things have been said and done. The monks, the do-gooders, the social workers and all the rest of them – they have all said, love humanity. All right. So, do you understand this clearly? As long as there is self-centred activity it is a form of isolation, whether it is isolation in the form of a country, a race, a belief – it is isolation. Right? In that isolation there is no relationship. I might sleep with my wife, I might have children and I might do all kinds of things, but I am still self-centred. And if I am I shall have problems. Why? You say, yes, but why? Why do I have problems if I am self-centred? On the contrary, isn't it? If I am completely self-centred, I am only thinking about myself. I am asking: why do human beings who are so tremendously self-centred – most, 99.5 percent of human beings, or 85, whatever, are self-centred – why do we have such problems, if I am self-centred? Go on.
42:11 Q: Because everybody is concerned with their own ideals.
42:16 K: Yes, but why do you have problems then?
42:19 Q: There is also a conflict within yourself, even if you are isolated.
42:27 K: No, if I am isolated in a prison, close myself – you are not watching it in yourself, look at yourself – if I am self-centred, what takes place?
42:47 Q: I have no feelings for other people.
42:50 K: I have no feeling for other people. Go into it a little more.
42:53 Q: You feel secure because you don't have to live. You think you are alone and so you don't have to relate the people and do anything so you feel secure.
43:05 K: Now, just a minute. What does it mean to be self-centred, first? Let's be clear on that. What does it mean? Come on. What does it mean, professor?
43:18 Q: You are only concerned with your own needs.
43:22 K: No, I say, what does it mean, what are the implications of being self-centred?
43:30 Q: All the activities and thoughts are centred around the person.
43:34 K: Yes. Move from there. Move, move. Explore a little more. It is good for your brain – go on. I am self-centred. What are the feelings of being self-centred?
43:55 Q: We are looking for pleasure.
43:57 K: Yes. Go on, something else.
44:02 Q: You are closed. You have no contact with anything.
44:09 K: Yes, that is right. Go on. I don't think about others. I have no contact with others. I have no actual relationship with others.
44:24 Q: It is safer. It is supposedly safer.
44:28 K: I think it is safer.
44:31 Q: And you want others to be like you.
44:35 K: Yes, carry on – others like you. Do you? I am self-centred and I am only concerned with myself, as most of us are. Occasionally we break out of that. When there is a war, a great crisis, we are not self-centred, are we? Country, patriotism, that is – what? We have given our responsibility to life over to others. Do you see that? They tell me what to do, it is so much simpler. So self-centredness has this feeling of being closed in, and there is the fear of opening up, a fear of getting hurt, wanting more pleasure. It is such a small, limited area I live in. Right? Now, if that is clear – we can go into it much more but if it is somewhat clear – doesn't it inevitably create problems? Suppose I am married. My wife is self-centred and I am self-centred. I am thinking about myself and she is thinking about herself – her pleasures, her ambitions, her wanting this and wanting that – not physical things, other kind of demands – and also I am doing the same. So, when both of us are like that there is no relationship, is there?
47:02 Q: No, because there is no communication.
47:05 K: That is it. There is no communication. So what happens? There must be conflict, inevitably. Right? So where there is self-centredness it must breed, it must be encourage conflict. I have completely identified with Jesus and all that business and I want to convert you to my belief because the more people there are of my belief, I am safer. Right? So I am out to convert others, etc. You have seen all this. Whether it is communism, whether it is religious dogmatism, whether it is a recent guru, it is the same phenomena. You understand? So have you discovered this for yourself or am I telling you? In talking over together, as we are doing now, you see the truth of it and say, by Jove, that is so, and not fall back into something, back again. You understand what I am saying? We have talked together about this somewhat. Is it merely a verbal communication between us? That is, intellectually you understand this but deep inside say, well, I am still a German, damn it, I am still a Catholic, I am still wanting my way. Therefore it is not understanding or perceiving the truth of it in depth. Or have you seen it in depth? Or just casual, it is a casual conversation between us? This was the question you raised at the beginning of this: what is intellectual understanding? Right?
49:55 Q: I think intellectual understanding is: if you think it is all right, but you don't change it.
50:00 K: It doesn't do anything. Now, if you understand this you cease to be identified with any group, with any community, with any guru, with any religion. You have finished with all that. Then you think in global terms. You understand what I am saying? Not being a Dutch or German or English. From there I think of the world. But having no anchorage as British, French and so on, then the world becomes extraordinarily vital. I wonder if you understand what I am saying.
51:04 Q: I understand but I still just understand it only intellectually. I am still thinking about myself.
51:12 K: If I merely understand intellectually it is like reading a book which tells you all about this and you are still an Indian at the end of it. What is the point of it? Then what is the point of communication? What is the point of discussion? What is the point of exploration into all these problems? At the end of it you say, yes, I am still attached to my country, to my ideals, to my way of things. You follow? It is a waste of time, isn't it? So we are inquiring into this question: having no problems, and therefore in relationship with the world and with my friends, with my wife, if there are no problems then perhaps there can be great affection, love for another. How can I love you if I have problems, if my mind is crowded with problems? You understand? So isn't it important to find out if you can live without problems?
53:02 Q: You have been saying that we are the source of our problems, but that is not the way we generally think of it. We generally think that our...

K: Problems come to us.
53:12 Q: Our conflict or our loneliness or all those things are imposed on us from the outside.
53:28 K: Aren't you getting warm? All right. If one really understands this one thing at depth, that as long as I am self-centred, thinking about myself most of my life, I am going to create problems for myself and for others. As long as I say I am British, I am going to create war. Right? Now, will you stop being British?
54:20 Q: No. I mean, apart that I am not British.
54:27 K: I have got a passport as an Indian. Passport – it is a paper. It doesn't make me Indian. I am not an Indian. I am just a human being, not labelled as Indian, as belonging to a certain particular religion or particular country, or identified with a particular belief and ideology – I am a human being. Why do I need all the rest of it? Is it because I am insecure, because I am alone, I don't belong to any group, any country, any ideals, I am alone, I am frightened therefore I must belong to something? This is what you are all going to face if you are not already facing it. So can we be clear in our minds and heart, so that we are mere human beings who have a great sense of affection – that is all. Is that possible? Isn't that part of our education to understand this?
56:19 Q: I think It is possible, but it just seems really very far away.
56:23 K: That is it. Why does it seem very far away?
56:27 Q: Because I live with problems, I live in certain problems and conflict so it is difficult to live without any.
56:38 K: You don't say, I am going to see whether this problem can end.
56:44 Q: Yes I do.
56:46 K: Then what? Another problem arises. So you keep that going all the rest of your life?
56:52 Q: Well, I don't want to.
57:10 K: Take a simple problem – not a simple problem, it is quite a complex problem – take a problem like getting hurt. You know what it means, getting hurt, don't you?
57:28 Q: Yes.
57:31 K: Why did you take so long?
57:34 Q: Because it was a long time ago.
57:40 K: All human beings from childhood on get hurt, don't they? Parents scold you, teachers scold you, education – you follow? Somebody is telling you what to do, what not to do, and you want to do something yourself. So somebody hurts you. Are you aware of your hurts? If you are aware of your hurt, are you going to carry it along for the rest of your life? Adding to that hurt more and more?
58:32 Q: Not if you are fully aware of it. If you are fully aware of how you are being hurt.
58:43 K: If you are fully aware – don't make a condition of it. Do you know the consequences, what the result is of being hurt? I am hurt. Because my father says something, I am hurt. My friend says something and so on – I am hurt. And the consequence of that hurt is I am afraid of getting more hurt. So I build a wall round myself: I must not be hurt. Which means I am not sensitive because I have already built my wall. And the more I build a thicker wall the more isolated I become, and in that isolation I become neurotic, peculiar. So that is some of the consequences. So can I totally eliminate being hurt altogether? Not by building a wall around myself, but never to be hurt. Aren't you interested in this? Are you? Will you do what I am telling you? Or rather – I am sorry, I withdraw that – will you look at what I am telling you? That is, I am hurt because I have an image about myself. I am a great man, I have talked to so many people in my life, I have travelled, books have been published – I am a great man. You come along and tell me, don't be silly. You are rather stupid. Then I react and say, who are you tell me? But I am really hurt. And somebody comes along and says, by Jove, what a marvellous person you are, flatters me. It is the same. Right? Being hurt and being flattered are the same thing. So I am hurt because – go on, tell me why.
1:01:28 Q: Because you have an idea about yourself.
1:01:30 K: That means what?
1:01:32 Q: It means that you think that you are a certain way and when someone tells you you are not, then it hurts.
1:01:37 K: Yes, but what does that mean?
1:01:41 Q: Your whole image is being shattered.
1:01:42 Q: You are fooling yourself. You are cheating yourself.
1:01:46 K: I am fooling myself.

Q: Yes.
1:01:48 K: Why do I fool myself?
1:01:52 Q: Because you don't want to face what it is. You don't want to face reality.
1:02:03 K: Look, I have said, I have travelled, etc. Which means what?
1:02:13 Q: You are insecure.
1:02:16 K: No. I am insecure anyhow, but that is not the point for the moment. I am asking, when I say I am a great teacher, all that silly stuff, have I not created an image about myself? Right?

Q: Yes.
1:02:42 K: So, I have an image about myself and you come along and put a pin into it and I get hurt. Right? This is a fact, isn't it? You have an image about yourself, haven't you, all of you? Now you are afraid. Now you keep quiet. So as long as you have an image, I am going to hurt you. If you say, I am a great man, or, I am trying to be better. I am this but one day I shall be a really great man – so as long as I have an image about myself, one of the results of that image is I am going to be hurt. Now, can you live without an image about yourself? Can you? Go on, sirs.
1:04:07 Q: Yes, by just observing what you are in the moment.
1:04:11 K: Observe what you are in the moment. All right, I have observed I have an image.
1:04:17 Q: No, because the moment afterwards you make an image. It is another moment, so if you just always look you don't have any time to form an image.
1:04:26 K: No, I may throw away one image but I create another image.
1:04:31 Q: No.
1:04:35 K: Look, have you an image about – I am not talking about you – have you got an image about yourself?
1:04:44 Q: Yes.

K: Of course. Don't be shy about it. We all have images about ourselves: I am beautiful, I am clever, I am noble, I am better than you, I am this, I am that – you all have images. Now, if I have built an image about myself that I am a noble man, you come along and insult me, I get hurt. So I am asking: can you live in this world without an image? Knowing one of the results of having an image is getting hurt. There are other factors in it. One is enough. As long as you have an image about yourself you are going to get hurt. That is a law, like keeping to the left on the road. But if you are abroad you keep to the right.
1:05:54 Q: Even if you are so secure of yourself, that you are really so certain that the image is right?
1:06:04 K: When you are so secure about yourself, saying, whatever I do is right.
1:06:11 Q: No, not whatever I do but whatever I think about myself is right.
1:06:15 K: Yes, that is it. Whatever I think about myself is right. Can anybody say that?
1:06:24 Q: Well, that is just another image, saying that whatever I think about myself is right.
1:06:29 K: I mean, what a statement to make. I am not saying you are wrong or right. If I say, whatever I think is right.
1:06:46 Q: What I think about myself, what I think I am.
1:06:49 K: Yes, whatever I think about myself is right. I think about myself that I am a hypocrite. That is right. Right? I think about myself as believing in Jesus. That is so – I think about it. So can you go on that way, think whatever you think about yourself is right? It may satisfy you, you may say, by Jove, I am safe, but is that so? That leads, doesn't it, if I say to myself, whatever I think about myself is right, that leads me to complete self-satisfaction. I am already an old man, dead. No? So, let's come back to our original question, which is: are we understanding all this merely verbally, which is intellectually, or it is so, at depth I have captured it, and from there I move. I hear you say as long as you belong to any country, to any group, to any idea you are bound to create war of some kind. I hear you say that to me, I understand it intellectually, I say, that is good. But I also see the truth of it, the fact of it, the depth of it. So I see it so clearly that I am no longer an Indian.
1:09:13 Q: So just in looking at it you are doing it.
1:09:16 K: Yes. It is so. As long as I am a Sikh, which are a particular racial group belonging to a certain sect in India – probably you have heard about it – as long as I am a Sikh – not 'sick', Sikh – I am going to fight everybody else, which is what is happening in India. They want their independence, they have got their leaders, they have got their political boss and so on – it is another racket. So when I see that, I say, for God's sake, how stupid. I won't belong to that. Don't you? Or you still carry on for the rest of your life? That means you are willing to kill another. I am putting it brutally. You are willing to create war. As long as I am an Arab I am going to fight the Jew. You understand? That is what is happening. So as long as I am self-centred, concerned about myself, I am going to create conflict for myself and for others. And if you want to live in conflict that is perfectly all right – but be aware of it.
1:11:21 Q: Isn't there a difference between self-concerned, having concerns about yourself, and being self-centred?
1:11:29 K: Self-concerned.
1:11:32 Q: Yes, the difference between being self-concerned and self-centred.
1:11:37 K: Self-concerned and self-centred.

Q: Yes.
1:11:40 K: Now wait a minute. I am concerned about myself – how I look, how I talk, what my ambitions are, what my fears are, I am concerned about that.
1:11:55 Q: Yes.
1:11:57 K: And what is the difference being self-centred and that? The self-centred man is also concerned about his job, etc. – you follow? He is also concerned. Are you saying, to investigate, to understand this whole business of why one is self-centred – to understand it, not to change it, not to alter it, not to move away, not to run away – is that self-centredness?
1:12:50 Q: I think it is a self-concern.
1:12:53 K: No, I want to understand, I want to change, I want to see why it is like that. That is not self-concern, surely. You know, sirs and ladies, this is one of the most difficult things, not to be self-centred. It requires a great deal of inquiry, awareness of what you are doing.
1:13:32 Q: It is a thought of what you are doing, of what is going on in yourself, so it is a concern about yourself.
1:13:39 K: No, that is not concern. I watch my thinking, why I get angry – that is not self-concern. Why I am afraid. Right? I am exploring. Why do I say I belong to one country? Why? That is not self-concern. I hate somebody – forgive me, suppose I hate somebody – I want to know why I hate – that is not self-concern. I am inquiring into the whole problem of hate. But if I say, I must not hate, I must be better than that, and so on and so on, I am still self-concerned. But if I say, why do human beings like myself hate? Why does hate exist in the world? That is not self-concern. You follow? Right. We had better stop, it is now a quarter past one. Right? Finished? May we get up?