Krishnamurti - To educate is to bring about a new generation

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR82DT - To educate is to bring about a new generation
Brockwood Park, UK - 8 October 1982
Discussion with Teachers

0:19	Krishnamurti: What shall we start on?
0:50	John King: Sir, in the morning group this morning where some staff and students meet to discuss the affairs of the school, Dorothy said you were speaking today and she reported that you had said, ‘Why don’t we discuss more with you?’, and so we talked about that in the morning group.
1:16	K: Discuss with me, come on. All right.
1:18	JK: But what came out of that discussion was that we generally find it difficult to discuss with you, we feel…
1:26	K: Am I frightening?
1:29	Q: Well, it seems difficult to carry on a discussion with you in a way that you seem to want to carry it on.
1:44	K: Sir, say for instance, let’s talk about what is education, why are we being educated? Our children, the grown-ups, why are we all being educated? Can we discuss that? Dr Shainberg and I were talking this morning for about forty-five minutes. We all want to be helped. Right? If I have a cancer, I go to the doctor, surgeon. If I have toothache, I go to the dentist, and so on. If any physical ailment, I need help. Right? And we are conditioning our mind to be helped. Right? Would we agree to that? Not only physically, but much more fundamentally we want to be helped with our problems, with our difficulties, any crisis that arises we want to talk it over, help each other. This has been our conditioning from time immemorial. The ancient Egyptians, the Sumerians, and the ancient Hindus, and so on, they have always had this agony of being helped and longing to be helped. And the religions are born out of it – the priests, and so on. Right? Would you agree to all this? Don’t agree merely; it is a fact. Now, why do we ask for help? We are educating our children, our students, so that they can get a job, they can work in the world and help each other. Right? Now, why are we always asking for help? We are training these children, these students rather, grown-up people, to perpetually ask for help, aren’t we?
4:55	Stephen Smith: Well, they expect help, sir.
4:59	K: No, no, help in difficulties.
5:02	SS: No, help in ordinary life, daily life.
5:05	K: They want help. SS: Yes.
5:06	K: Now, why? Why is there this craving for help?
5:10	SS: Well, they are young and they need help.
5:16	Doris Pratt: We are also old and we need help.
5:18	SS: That’s true too.
5:19	K: So you are the helper, I am the helped.
5:22	SS: To an extent.
5:24	K: Now, what is our conditioned mind, our mind when we are asking for help? I can’t solve my problems. I can’t resolve my difficulties, so I come to you.
5:37	Dorothy Simmons: To talk it over. K: Talk it over.
5:41	Mary Zimbalist: So we either are conditioned to or we see the necessity for cooperation, and surely cooperation implies what could be described as helping each other.
5:55	K: Why? Why do we want help? My question is not helping each other – why do we want help?
6:04	Q: At a certain level, isn’t help necessary? For example, if we want to study mathematics or whatever it is, and we seem to carry on…
6:18	K: There I agree, sir, there I agree. If I want to be a good engineer or a scientist, philosopher, and so on, – let’s say I need mathematics – I need help; I don’t know mathematics. Right? With the same… I have that same mentality with regard to life, with regard to my daily living, which has many problems. I need help. I go to a priest, psychologist, a guru, some leader to help me. I am asking, why this craving for being helped?
7:03	DP: Partly because we feel incomplete as we are. We don’t seem to be able to function fully in any direction.
7:11	K: Yes, so we are asking for help. D P: Yes. Well, we’re asking for help in finding out what our own direction may be.
7:28	DS: It may not be a question of asking for help but wanting to find out all the facts and turning to a friend to discuss this with you so that you are not out of ignorance, haven’t gone into all the possibilities of this particular problem that you are wanting to take further on. It is not really necessarily help but an investigation into: is this the sort of right action?
7:58	K: Is talking over together, over a problem with my wife, is that... does that involve any desire to be helped?
8:13	Scott Forbes: Well, it can, Krishnaji. This is what I have been thinking, that we need to actually be clear about what we mean by help because…
8:22	K: I can’t solve my problems with my wife, I go to a psychologist or to somebody to help me.
8:31	SF: All right, but let me have another example. For instance, if I want to learn about my reactions, we often say here that one learns in relationship, so we seek relationships in order to learn. Now, I don’t think that’s what you mean by seeking help.
8:53	K: I’m not sure.
8:54	SF: Well, then, do you mean that one learns about this entirely in isolation?
8:59	K: No. No, I want to ask…
9:02	SF: If you need a relationship in order to learn something, is that seeking help?
9:10	K: Discuss it, sir. I’m not going to…
9:11	MZ: Are you suggesting that… K: Don’t address it all to me.
9:14	MZ: Krishnaji, do you mean by help, that one is depending on someone else to solve a problem or do something that we should be able to do ourselves?
9:23	K: Yes, partly that. Definitely that.
9:29	MZ: So it’s the dependence, it’s not making the exploration oneself.
9:34	K: It is essentially a dependence on somebody – on the priest, or God, or my wife or psychologists, and so on. I’m asking, are we educating our students – I am questioning, I am not saying we are, we are not – to condition themselves in their difficulties to ask for help? Is that education? I don’t know mathematics, but I come to you to teach me mathematics. Right? I don’t know how to paint, I come to you to help me. I don’t know how to drive a car, I go to the man who teaches me. Right? There I depend on somebody. Have we the same mentality of outward dependence – you know, physical, like driving a car – the same mentality carried over in my difficulties with my wife, asking for help? Q: Yes.
10:49	K: My wife or if I have a crisis – it doesn’t matter what. The whole religious system is based on that. Pray.
11:00	Q: All systems are authority-based.
11:01	K: I mean, the whole of that structure is based on the desire and the person who wants to help you – the confession, the talking over with the priest, and so on, so on.
11:21	Brian Jenkins: Krishnaji, if for example, you want to learn how to drive a car, you go to the teacher, at that point you are dependent on him. K: Of course.
11:30	BJ: But when you’ve learnt how to drive a car, then you are independent. K: Of course.
11:34	BJ: Now, I think that is the process of education. A student comes to Brockwood. He is dependent. It is the responsibility of the teacher to show him what it is to be independent.
11:46	K: So you are helping him to be independent.
11:49	Q: But help.
11:54	K: No, go into it, sir, don’t take a specific case, inquire into this whole structure of human existence that demands constantly to be helped, wanting to be helped. I am neurotic for various reasons, I want to be helped to be free of it. You know, this whole process – you must have thought about it.
12:19	SF: Sir, are we unwilling to take responsibility?
12:22	K: No, I am not talking… First, see the problem, sir, don’t say... I am questioning whether our education, not only here but right throughout the world, is not conditioning the mind, the brain, to seek help. Not only in mathematics, about computers, and so on, but in my relationship with my dearest or the person I live with, with all the problem.
12:59	DS: But you might wish to talk it over with your friend.
13:02	K: I talk it over with my wife. Can I?
13:07	DS: Well, I don’t see that’s dependence.
13:09	K: No, but just... you are saying talk it over.
13:12	DS: And investigating into the facts of that particular situation.
13:18	K: But my wife refuses to face facts.
13:23	Giselle Balleys: You have to have an exchange.
13:25	K: But, madame, she refuses to face facts.
13:28	GB: But then you can speak with someone else, so that you have an exchange to know how to deal with the situation.
13:36	K: So I go to somebody, how to help me to deal with her?
13:39	GB: Not to help but to have an exchange, so that you see the thing in a wider way.
13:47	K: I am questioning, I am not saying, but you are defending.
13:52	MZ: Isn’t the thing that is questionable in all this the dependency factor? That one should be able to discuss something with other people and explore – a word you use so much in what is done in the schools – but when it becomes a dependence, it goes wrong. Is that what you’re saying? Is that what you’re suggesting? K: You find out. Let’s talk about why the human mind, the brain, demands constantly the desire to be helped.
14:25	Wendy Agnew: There seems to be some assumption that we ourselves somehow don’t have the tools within ourselves to help ourselves. K: So why not? Why haven’t you got... Now, inquire, let’s discuss that, for example. Why haven’t we got the tools with which we can deal, the problems that I’ll not depend on anybody? What is it that prevents us? DS: Well, one’s family background. One’s whole upbringing is one inducing dependency.
14:56	K: That’s it. That’s it. Schools, colleges, universities, at home, the religious structure.
15:05	DS: Yes, but many people, many young people step out of that.
15:09	K: No. Perhaps very few people.
15:12	DS: And have a great deal of trouble in stepping out of it.
15:14	K: Very, very few people step out of it.
15:15	DS: Because their parents want to keep them where they are, dependent.
15:20	K: Very few people step out of it. Those are exceptions. But we are talking of the average human being. Whether they are highly aristocratic or the very, very bottom of the social structure, this is the process.
15:41	Am I wrong? Q: No.
15:45	Q: By teaching any subject… K: Tell me, sir, am I wrong?
15:51	SF: No, you don’t seem to be wrong, but we still don’t know why. It’s not clear yet. K: No, we’ll come to that. Is that so?
15:59	Q: I don’t feel.
16:00	K: In history – you follow, sir? – the whole structure is based on this. The government deals out social business – you know, all that dole. So I am questioning why the human brain demands this. That’s all.
16:30	DP: I think it’s pretty obvious. The human brain sees chaos in whichever direction it looks, and out of that, it wants to find a way that is secure and safe and certain, so that it can tread that path.
16:43	K: Would you… Not you… I mean, would you... are you asking for help? If you are honest, are you asking for help?
17:01	DP: Yes.
17:02	K: Not how to build a house, not how to drive a car, but inwardly, there is this urge to seek help. Are you? That’s all I’m asking. That’s really…
17:18	Q: Yes.
17:19	WA: I think we would like to feel we weren’t, but I think we are. I think there’s a feeling that we shouldn’t ask for help, but in fact, I think most of us do in some way feel we have to ask for help because we don’t how to do it ourselves somehow.
17:36	K: Now, why do we ask, why is there this urge to ask help from him, from somebody? What is the cause of it?
17:47	Juan Hancke: We believe that our problems might be solved.
17:51	K: Inquire, sir, go into it. Why? Why do I want help from God, from a priest, from a psychologist, and so on, down the whole way of my life?
18:06	SF: It seems, Krishnaji, that people don’t want to take responsibility for what they do and for their actions. K: No, sir, no, go deeper than that. That’s really…
18:14	DP: It’s an insufficiency. Q: They are insecure.
18:18	Jane Hoare: It’s the whole concept of learning. If I watch someone doing something very well, and I exchange with them, I feel I will learn.
18:37	K: Have we stopped discussing?
18:39	David Wolf: Couldn’t we say that the larger problems of life have been with us all the time, and we have never really solved them ourselves? We may have solved small problems, but the main, deep ones still remain with us throughout our life, and so the experience that one has never really come to grips or come to terms with anything.
19:03	K: But do you want somebody to help you out of it?
19:06	Q: Well, then one may look for an alternative solution to the problem outside instead of inside.
19:11	K: Yes, but do you ask help for somebody to help you to look inside?
19:16	Q: Yes, I think so.
19:17	K: So, that’s what I am... The asking for help, that’s what I’m asking – why?
19:23	MZ: Well, because you’re younger, your life as a child, your life growing up is entirely structured on that, and in a valid way, the child needs to be helped, needs to be protected.
19:35	K: We agreed to that. MZ: Yes, but the not leaving that behind on reaching a certain age seems to be the problem – we go on in the same pattern.
19:46	K: That’s right – the same cycle is carried on inwardly.
19:51	MZ: Yes. K: So I am asking why.
19:56	MZ: Because it has worked in another area all one’s life, one assumes that that is the way to go on, to look for help outside.
20:08	Harsh Tanka: Can I ask a slightly different question? Is it possible for somebody to help you with those deep problems? Is it possible to be helped?
20:22	K: Of course, otherwise the priests, the psychologists, the gurus wouldn’t exist.
20:30	HT: But with the very deep questions can someone help you to really see?
20:38	DS: They might be able to. They might reveal facts that you didn’t know about.
20:44	HT: There may be some facts, some partial facts, but...
20:49	DS: Essentially, surely one helps oneself, but you take the trouble to inform yourself of the whole situation. But we boggle at that a little and say, ‘Well, this person is a wiser person or has lived longer’, or from the background of one’s childhood, one has come to feel that older people know better. It’s still tucked away somewhere, and so you take a shortcut.
21:17	K: So, at the end of all that, I am always dependent on somebody to help me. I am dependent. DS: I don’t think so.
21:29	K: What? You don’t think so? What?
21:31	DS: I don’t think people…
21:32	K:...people are dependent? DS: …all people are dependent.
21:35	K: Are you saying people are not dependent?
21:37	DS: I think a great many people are because some people never really grow up, even though they may be adult in years, but some people, I think, do grow up.
21:48	K: We agreed to that. We agreed that very few exceptional people are out of that. Don’t let’s go back to it.
21:57	DS: Yes, but you’re talking to us. You are talking to us.
22:00	K: All right. Are you out of it?
22:05	DS: No. Q: No.
22:10	MZ: Can we ask you: is what we’re doing right this moment making us dependent?
22:17	K: What? MZ: To talk over this matter.
22:21	K: I should think not if you know how... if we know how to talk it over, so that we are completely exposing inwardly to ourselves, or outwardly, that I am dependent and let’s see if it is possible to be free of it immediately. That’s inquiry.
22:43	MZ: But the process, the inquiry, are we dependent on that, or is it simply something that is taking place which may, one hopes, be very helpful and yet not bring about a dependency?
22:54	K: All right, I withdraw the subject.
22:57	SF: No, Krishnaji, it’s too good. No.
22:59	K: You go round and round the same thing.
23:01	SF: No, it’s a good subject, Krishnaji. Mary is asking, even our approach to this, we can approach it saying, ‘Please, help us see how we can live without help’.
23:13	K: That’s it. Yes, that’s it. No, then I am helping you.
23:15	SF: Exactly. So, is there an approach to all of this that doesn’t ask for help?
23:20	K: First of all, I don’t want to help you.
23:22	SF: Right.
23:24	K: Let’s be very clear on that matter.
23:26	SF: And at the same time we ask for your help.
23:28	K: No, just a minute, just a minute.
23:29	DS: Krishnaji, when you say you don’t want to help, why do you sit here and talk, talk to us to show us our shortcomings?
23:36	K: No, no, no, you are missing the whole… I have a... I don’t want to help because it’s... one has to be free from all dependency.
23:45	MZ: Well, that’s it. There’s a confusion, I think, in this discussion of equating help with dependency. And is it not possible that we can help each other without making each one dependent? Q: Yes.
23:59	K: Talk it over – go on. Don’t appeal to me, look at me – discuss it.
24:04	DS: Because we are talking over it doesn’t make one dependent.
24:10	K: I didn’t say that.
24:12	MZ: That’s the implication. K: I did not say that.
24:15	SF: No, somehow it has to be our attitude or our position when we discuss, not actually the act of discussing. It has to be something of why we discuss or what we hope to get out of discussing or our approach to the whole matter. Certainly people can talk to one another without being dependent.
24:37	K: Talking over a problem together, does it help you to be free?
24:45	DS: Yes, it could do. Q: It might.
24:51	K: Wait a minute. So that it becomes unnecessary to talk it over.
24:58	MZ: Ultimately. K: Not ‘ultimately’. I talk over my problem with you, and I see in that talking over, I have solved my problem, and therefore I begin to depend on this talking it over.
25:18	MZ: Yes, but that’s the point – why…
25:19	K: Wait, wait, wait, I haven’t finished. Let me finish, please. I must begin again. I talk it over with you and I have resolved somewhat my problem. Then I say to myself, ‘By Jove, by talking it over with you I am resolving’. So talking over with you becomes another dependence. No, this is what is happening!
25:51	Brian Nicholson: Krishnaji, you’re pointing a certain direction the mind can go in – it’s emptiness, there is a sense of space and it’s something which you can’t describe – but all the resistance that the world has created comes in, and that’s what you’re receiving at the moment.
26:17	K: At the moment, yes.
26:18	Q: We don’t want reasons as to why that’s come – we can all put reasons to it – the actual fact is you are making a suggestion about the way the mind can move, and as the mind moves that way, it feels that it can’t go further... K: That’s right. Proceed.
26:30	Q:...it feels impossible. Now let’s discuss it, sir, you see? Personally, I have had several problems. I have never asked for help. I never said, ‘My God, it’s a terrible problem, I have to ask somebody, discuss with somebody’. I saw the problem and said, ‘Yes, that is the right answer’, and I stuck to it. I mustn’t… So, let me put the question differently. Is our education helping the student to be free? Or for the rest of his life he’ll be conditioned, as British, as French, as whatever it is, and also conditioned by his own thoughts, by his own – you follow? – all that deep conditioning that goes on. What do you say? Let’s talk about it.
27:59	WA: I am now thinking of the question: can you actually help anyone to be free? I mean, can you educate someone to be free of their conditioning or whatever?
28:09	K: Is it possible to quote ‘help’ quote another like the students to show how they are conditioning is, what their conditioning is, and not to depend on somebody, to help them to be free of their own conditioning? That’s all I’m asking. Isn’t that part of our education? Right? Would you agree to that?
28:47	Q: Yes.
28:48	K: Now, how am I... how do we proceed?
28:57	BJ: I don’t think we can proceed at all unless we are aware our own dependence.
29:06	BN: But can’t we be aware of our resistance to moving in the direction which is being indicated now? Do we have to look for more words or for a dependence or something else? We don’t want to move as is being pointed out.
29:22	K: Sir, I don’t think it is the wanting to move. I don’t see – if I may most humbly point out – I don’t see... we don’t see the problem. I am conditioned as a Hindu. Right? You are conditioned as an Englishman, and our conditioning is separating us, isolating us, creating fear, creating war, creating the whole business. Now, as a teacher, I have 60 students or 68 students here. Now, is it not my responsibility to see that this division, this isolation doesn’t exist?
30:08	Q: So I have to start, if I am talking to you now…
30:11	K: Yes, we are talking. Are you British?
30:14	Q: My whole feeling that somebody is going to have to help me in some way creates a… could stop me…
30:21	K: No, as Mrs Simmons, Mrs D pointed out, in talking it over we help each other. ‘Help’ in quotes for the moment. Now, let’s talk it over. I am born in India with all the conditioning of an Indian – superstition, religious, Brahmanic, and so on, so on – and you as a British, conditioned as a... you know, great nation, great war, empire, and so on, so on. You stick to your British – ‘British, British, British’, as they say on the television every evening – and I, I say, ‘Hindu, Hindu, Hindu, Indian’. Right? We are isolating each other from each other and in that isolation there is no safety. I verbally accept all this, but inwardly I remain Indian. Right? Now, can we, talking it over, help each other to be free of that conditioning?
31:41	Q: Without my asking you for help.
31:43	K: No, it is suggested that we talk it over. In the talking over, we help each other. Right? Now, do we talk it over? Can we talk it over? So that at the end of the talk you are free of this conditioning, and I am free of this conditioning. Otherwise talking has no meaning.
32:08	Q: I don’t want to discuss how it came about then.
32:11	K: Oh, yes, I know how it came about. Q: Right, exactly. So I don’t want to talk about it like that.
32:16	K: There is a cause to it. Q: Right. But it’s an actual thing one can feel as one’s talking.
32:20	K: Yes, it has a cause to it because in that separativeness there is a sense of security, a sense of togetherness – you know, all that.
32:31	Q: And as I am talking, I can feel that actually operating.
32:34	K: So let’s talk it over, and in talking it over, will you completely be free of it, this conditioning, and I am free of it? Otherwise what’s the point of talking it over? Right?
32:48	Q: Right. K: Now let’s do that, let’s do it. Do we first see that any form of conditioning does separate people, and that conditioning brings about isolation? Like a British, French, Arab, Jew, Indian, Muslim, and they are all at each other’s throat now.
33:13	Q: Yes, that is clear.
33:17	K: And you and I talking it over, say, ‘Look, this is all so totally wrong. I am going to educate my child, my student to see this tremendous conditioning and the danger of it’. Right? Look, do we do this now, here? I want to talk it over with you. You see, I am questioning, if we may proceed, I am questioning whether this talking over does really blot it out. Or it requires a totally different element. You follow? Q: Yes.
34:24	K: I am asking this. Please, let’s discuss this. I mean, I have talked it over when I give talks, this thing over and over and over again – right? – in different words, in different ways.
34:44	Q: The conditioning still remains. K: Still remains. So I am questioning whether this talking over does really help each other to be free of that thing – free of fear, fear of – you follow? – the whole business of it.
35:03	Q: In the intensity of the discussion between us, is it that one is temporarily free of the conditioning during that intensity of a discussion?
35:13	K: No, not only this. As I go out of the room, I realise. It is not just for a few minutes I see it.
35:21	Q: Yes.
35:25	SF: Well, that’s it, Krishnaji, when we talk about something, the intent is not just to talk, but it is actually to perceive something, to see something.
35:34	K: No, I am questioning, sir, please, whether talking over together about, say, this separative, isolating danger, will that really help me, help to break down this isolation? Or a different element is necessary, different quality is necessary?
35:55	Shakuntala Narayan: I think, there is a problem, sir. I think the problem is that one seems to sort of make the word very important. It seems that we are not able to really go beyond the word.
36:11	K: Is that the problem?
36:19	Q: Can I try to find out exactly what you mean?
36:22	K: What, sir?
36:25	Q: One can talk and one can reach a certain point.
36:30	K: Yes.
36:30	Q: While one is talking, one does feel this, one sees that there is a sense of freedom or whatever…
36:36	K: At the end of it... Q: At the end of it – right.
36:41	K:...are you totally free of the conditioning, as British and I as a Hindu?
36:47	Q: Or go back into it. K: Or go back and say...
36:51	Q: That’s what we’re trying to deal with: is it possible actually for it to end?
36:54	K: Yes.
36:56	Q: On the whole, we find it hasn’t, and that’s what we’re dealing with now.
37:00	K: Yes. So, what is the other quality that is necessary?
37:07	SN: I think, sir, it is something to do with going beyond the word.
37:11	K: All right, the word.
37:13	SN: Why are we so stuck with the words?
37:15	K: It is not the word. I know I am conditioned as a Hindu. Right? It is not words. It is a fact.
37:23	SF: How do you know it, sir?
37:24	K: I see it. I see that I believe in whatever it is – I see it, it is a fact. I have tremendous prejudices as a Brahmin.
37:39	Q: When somebody criticises my country, I feel it as a sensation.
37:43	K: Yes. It’s a fact. I believe in whatever God I believe in. It’s not just words. I go there every evening to put garlands on the...
37:58	SF: Yes, and you’re saying that your seeing this as a fact has no impact.
38:01	K: No. We all know this. I have talked with a man in India about doing daily puja, daily ritual. He listens to me every day. He came to me one day: ‘Sir, I have listened to you for the last twenty years. I can’t help doing puja, the ritual’. So I said, ‘Well, then what’s the point of listening?’ I pointed out everything, what is involved in it: fear, safety, this tradition handed down, and so you are so deeply conditioned that you must every day do ceremonies, you know, worship and all the rest of it, chant and all that.
39:00	DS: Isn’t that rather as Shaku was suggesting, that you’re listening with your intellect, if you like, and weighing and measuring it and summing it up, but the essential listening is not there.
39:17	K: No. Here, let’s come here, to this room: are we thinking in terms of British, French? No. All right? Q: No.
39:32	K: Are you quite sure? Q: Yes.
39:34	K: I mean, this is serious. Are you quite sure that you have no sense of country – you know, patriotism, you know all that is involved in it?
39:48	Q: But as David pointed out, I don’t think we can be quite sure. Speaking for myself, I can’t be quite sure about it.
40:16	SS: Isn’t conditioning a whole process?
40:19	K: Of course, sir.
40:20	SS: I mean, you can’t say you are free of one part of it and then be caught in another part.
40:24	K: I am just taking one part of it.
40:26	SS: Yes, but does it work that way?
40:28	K: It’s a very complex thing. Right? Either you attack the whole thing – you understand? It is like cutting down the whole tree, not just the branches.
40:45	SS: Well, that’s what you have to do, isn’t it?
40:47	K: Now, let’s discuss it, how to do it, what to do.
40:53	SF: Well, sir, you suggested that there might be needed another element, not just talking about it.
40:59	K: I don’t think talking over helps deeply. We have talked it over, this business.
41:06	SF: Yes.
41:06	K: We have talked over co-operation, having no fear. You have listened to this umpteen times and years – but what?
41:22	SF: So, what might that other element be, sir?
41:24	K: Inquire, go on, let’s ask.
41:27	WA: I think this is the area that we start asking for help in, actually. When we get to this point, then we all sort of think ‘help’, you know, in a way. I think this is where we start relying on wanting some answers.
41:39	K: I don’t quite understand.
41:41	MZ: This is the difficult point, and therefore the point at which we feel we need help.
41:47	K: No. You see? WA: Yes, that’s what I mean.
41:51	K: We are inquiring. Q: Yes.
41:54	K: Not help. We are inquiring.
41:57	Ingrid Porter: Well, I think what she means when she says ‘help’ is because we have been inquiring, we have been inquiring together often, but when we look at it, it appears that all we’ve done is taken little branches off the tree and we don’t seem to be able to cut down the whole tree, and so we are stuck, so we say, ‘Help’.
42:17	K: Now, why? Why? Go into it, why?
42:25	IP: Well, when we talk over together something like nationality, and are you conditioned, you see it very clearly and you see how silly it is.
42:34	K: I know. And you see how silly, but it drops away.
42:41	IP: Right, but it drops away in little pieces here and there. Why can’t you see the whole thing behind it, behind the conditioning, so that once and for all it is stopped? It doesn’t seem to happen.
43:00	K: But conditioning is not merely nationality.
43:02	IP: No, no, that’s what I’m saying, I mean the whole.
43:04	K: It’s so very, very deep. I P: Right.
43:07	GB: And it comes up then regularly in the way we think and the way we act also. So even if here we agree that we have no nationality, I mean it comes up after again, in the way we are really.
43:32	SF: Sir, what is this other element? How can we go about discovering what this element is? How can we approach this?
43:43	K: Wait, sir. Would you approach it negatively?
43:48	SF: Do you mean by saying what it isn’t?
43:49	K: What it isn’t. SF: One could.
43:53	K: Well, go on, go on.
43:55	SF: Well, we could say easily it’s not knowledge, it’s not...
43:58	K: No, no, don’t ‘say’. Actually say, ‘This is not the way’, one after the other – right? – and drop it away from you. Not verbally, mere statements, but say, ‘This is not…’ I mean, seeking help from a priest is not the way. It is finished. I won’t go to a priest – which means priest, psychologist, blah, the whole... – it is finished for me. So, negatively I put that aside completely.
44:31	Q: What we would use is a tool of the mind – thought or reason – and the past has shown that it hasn’t been a reliable tool, it’s led one along false roads. So one may believe one’s free of nationalism, for example, and only to find out after a long period of time that one wasn’t actually free.
44:55	K: Move, sir. All right. I have dropped nationality. Right? I have gone into it, I see historically what it has done to human beings, and so on, so on, so I have finished with it. Now let’s take something else and completely wipe it out.
45:13	JH: The difficulty seems that when there is full attention, one sees how ludicrous nationality or any movement of that is. But the attention drops and then the habitual patterns maintain themselves, and mostly our attention is very dispersed, so the pattern is continued.
45:41	Q: She is saying that old habits keep coming back.
45:44	K: Yes, sir.
45:45	MZ: When your attention is on it, it dissipates, but then your attention moves away and the habit comes back.
45:55	K: Go on. Are you wanting me to answer all this? I won’t answer it. You go...
46:04	SS: Well, nationality is a case in point. You may see it and you see it in the world, what it does, and you say, ‘Yes, that’s ludicrous, I’ll give it up’, but it pops up.
46:20	K: But, sir, no.
46:24	SS: You see, there is a difficulty here in saying you’ve dropped it because you may want to drop it, and you may desire passionately to drop it, and feel it’s the right way and the only right way, but there is…
46:42	K: Sir, would you say…
46:43	SS: There may be a gap between that and the actual total dropping of it.
46:47	K: Would you say it’s a poison? It is poison.
46:50	SS: It is poison, yes.
46:51	K: And you don’t touch poison. You don’t have to... It doesn’t come back and you say that you play with poison – it’s over. Right?
47:05	Q: But we are.
47:07	K: You see, that’s what…
47:09	Q: People do play with poison. They smoke cigarettes, drink, do all kinds of silly things, and the very act of taking a cigarette gives a sense of satisfaction, a sense of relief which overpowers a reason not to smoke. Same with nationalism. If I identify with my country, I feel a sense of security there.
47:31	K: Of course, of course.
47:32	Q: And that is more powerful than the poison of nationalism.
47:37	K: So, all right, keep your poison.
47:41	MZ: But, sir, even if one drops the nationalistic poison, isn’t that a symptom of the conditioning? And we could drop one symptom after another and still have an infinity left.
47:54	K: So, all right, now how do you – let’s talk it over – how do you see the whole thing and dissolve it? By the very perception cut it. Proceed, discuss it. Don’t wait for me to proceed. Discuss it. I want to cut the whole tree down, not trim the branches. Right? Now, how am I to do it?
48:34	Q: We must be free from fear.
48:43	K: No, that’s only part of it, isn’t it? One of my conditionings is fear. So if I tackle fear by itself, I am only trimming one of the big branches. I want to cut the whole tree down.
49:08	Q: But our whole thinking is in terms of causes, so we might find many, many causes and never end to it.
49:16	K: Sir, don’t you want to cut the whole tree down and not trim the branches?
49:22	Ray McCoy: Krishnaji, I think we don’t want to cut the whole tree down.
49:25	K: So all right, that’s…
49:27	RM: I think that all these little things…
49:28	K: All right, that’s very clear – then let’s trim the branches.
49:31	RM: No, I think that all these little things make up what we think we are.
49:37	K: Yes, all right.
49:39	RM: And to attack them we are attacking ourselves.
49:40	K: If all these things will help you to give you strength, to give you a sense of separate strength and vitality, all right, but see the danger, the consequences of it. See where it leads you to. And if you want it that way, all right. You see?
50:15	DP: We don’t seem to see anything with startling clarity. It’s sort of foggy.
50:31	Q: The problem is, Krishnaji, I think, most of the time when we look at this question, we are thinking of reasons why we can’t do it.
50:38	K: Yes, sir, all right.
50:42	Q: This pressure, this conditioning, it’s the whole of my thought and feeling.
50:47	K: Of course.
50:50	Q: Once when I talked to you, there was a tremendous amount of hurt, and so on that isn’t fair. But, sir, everything I think and feel is this pressure around silence. There’s nothing that I can understand more about it. There’s nothing I want to ask about it. I don’t want to find out another fact about it.
51:15	K: Sir, look, we are educators. Right? We have got a lot of students. Part of our education is to help them to be free of certain things. Right? Are we doing it? Actually help them. Doesn’t matter, even a branch, one branch. Or the whole thing is so deadly – you follow? – such weight, we can’t break through it. I don’t know, am I… You see, you can’t… Or like some of those existentialists and others say, ‘It’s human condition – it can never be changed. You can modify it, so accept that’.
52:36	Q: I certainly don’t want to touch the branches one by one anymore, nor would somebody else really. It helps, but it takes so long. It’s the whole thing or…
52:49	K: Yes, sir, I... What do we do, sir? Don’t let’s come to an impasse and get up for lunchtime.
53:04	Q: We can’t move out of that.
53:05	SF: We keep coming up to a point, Krishnaji, where we talk about the possibility of seeing the whole tree, you said, perceiving the whole tree and cutting it down. And a little while before we talked about approaching this extra element other than just talking that is going to bring about a real change. We keep coming up to…
53:28	K: …a certain point. SF: …a certain point, and then we dissipate, we go away. Can we try and stay with that element which will make a difference? K: Let’s go into it, sir, go on, go on, go on into it.
53:45	SF: Well, it’s difficult to know where to go, sir. It’s difficult to know what to do. I mean, we can, as you suggest, keep trying to eliminate some things.
53:56	Q: But that really won’t lead us to anywhere, will it? Because you can go on eliminating. Surely it’s capacity we lack. But it’s not just thinking a thing through or feeling.
54:14	Q: Aren’t we accepting your word-picture that there is a tree, for example? I mean, which one of us would really say that pleasure and pain are really branches on the same tree, and fear, all coming to one common point?
54:31	K: Yes, sir. Q: You put that forward and when we talk about chopping the tree down, we must have accepted your word-picture, but is it really so?
54:39	K: Remove my word-picture, introduce your own picture and see what this conditioning is. The religious, the political, the education system which is also conditioning, the search for power, position – you know, the whole movement.
55:21	DS: Isn’t any picture that you draw creating the situation?
55:29	K: Is the picture creating the situation?
55:33	DS: By the talk. By the very talk you are perpetuating this condition.
55:43	K: I don’t catch it.
55:45	SS: Perpetuate the conditioning by talking.
55:49	DS: You are making the pictures.
55:50	K: No, I won’t talk, all right.
55:52	DS: Making the dependency, if you like, not just standing alone without anything and meeting what life has presented to you.
56:06	K: All right. Do we do that? Does any of us do what you’re saying? Stand alone but co-operate and meet the thing as it arises.
56:30	DS: Probably not, but there is the feeling out towards: is that possible to live that way?
56:49	Q: This is a movement round the essential point, isn’t it?
56:51	DS: It is a movement round the essential point, but you’ve got to live life.
56:55	Q: By calling it ‘conditioning’ we move away from it and perpetuate it.
57:00	DS: Yes, by calling to the conditioning we are perpetuating it and building a hard crust all round it.
57:06	Q: And yet if there is a pattern operating, which we’re not seeing as conditioning, we are also not there.
57:14	DS: I missed that.
57:16	Q: If one is operating in a pattern, not calling it conditioning won’t help.
57:21	DS: No, no.
57:22	Q: But if one is aware of the whole of that pattern and wondering what to do about it, one’s calling it ‘conditioning’ is perpetuating it.
57:31	DS: Yes. Krishnaji said something that I thought sort of… And yet co-operate while doing this lone thing. The very lone thing is the co-operation and most of us are afraid to do it.
57:55	K: All right, Mrs D, here is a school. Are we all co-operating to bring about a different generation? Not the old, mediocre, struggling, fighting, jealous, anxiety – go through all that – or are we creating a new generation?
58:25	DS: It is a new generation, which we may be attempting not to damage.
58:33	Q: Yes.
58:34	K: I don’t quite follow. I can’t hear, sir.
58:39	DS: It is a new generation, and perhaps we are saying: can we learn to live with it, be part of that generation and not damage it?
58:49	MZ: But it’s already damaged, isn’t it?
58:50	DS: It is already damaged, but we might as educators de-damage it.
58:56	K: What?
58:57	DS: It might be able to be possible – that is what he is really saying.
59:05	Q: I think what she is saying is that rather than say, ‘There are the students, let’s change them’, she’s saying, ‘There are the students, let’s see what they are. In some way they are damaged, in some way they are not damaged – let the undamaged part of them flower’.
59:23	DS: Because they are still young, and they might be possible to step out of this wanting to be helped all the time and feeling unable to do it for themselves, but, I mean, what is all this about but living the life that you are given to live?
59:48	MZ: But don’t we live that life with this continual frame of reference that each one has?
59:53	DS: That’s it. And we are saying, can we cut those frames of reference? And perhaps we might be able to cut the frame of reference here.
1:00:35	K: Have you answered my question? My question was, or is... After all, to educate the students is to bring about a new generation of people. Right? Right? We agree to that, sir? A new generation. And which means, you know, a totally different quality of mind. Right? Are we doing that? So that when they leave here, there is something in them which is totally different? Not just polish outside, but inwardly.
1:01:27	DS: You have to cut the bonds that hold them tied, won’t you? I mean, before that’s possible, one will have to cut your own imprisonment in ignorance, and before you can create an atmosphere in which that is possible, I don’t see how you begin, Krishnaji.
1:01:48	K: So you are saying you cannot help them unless you have helped yourself.
1:01:54	DS: Fundamentally, yes, I suppose so.
1:01:56	K: I question that.
1:01:59	DS: You question it.
1:02:00	SF: Krishnaji, may I ask a question then? Is it possible, without having first approached profoundly this element which will bring about a change, is it possible without that to educate a new generation or do anything?
1:02:18	K: Sir, do you see you need a new generation?
1:02:22	SF: Yes.
1:02:23	K: Not just verbally, but do you see the importance of it, the burning necessity of it?
1:02:33	SF: I feel so. Yes, sir.
1:02:34	K: Now, then how do you proceed? Don’t stop.
1:02:40	SF: Well, I am trying to go back to this one essential element that will change anybody. K: No, no, remove that. Begin, begin, let’s begin.
1:02:49	SS: Something is generated by your sense of urgency about it, if you feel this is urgent. K: Yes. Do you feel it is urgent? SS: Yes, I do.
1:03:01	K: Then what is next? What shall we do? It must be together. It can’t be you and I feel it and she doesn’t.
1:03:12	SF: But that might be the fact, Krishnaji.
1:03:14	K: Wait, wait, see what happens. If you and I, etc., and she is part of this group, she is hindering, and we are trying to move to something else. Right? So it never operates. It must be something that we all do together.
1:03:35	WA: I don’t understand. Why do you say that, Krishnaji? K: What?
1:03:40	WA: No, I mean, are you suggesting that we wait for everyone, I don’t know, in the world to act at the same time? It doesn’t seem to make sense. K: No, but I mean, do we all want to build a house? You follow? The same thing. If you don’t and I do, or I don’t and you do, then the house will never be built.
1:04:06	SF: Krishnaji, may I say, you have spent a lifetime going around trying to build this house with a lot of people that have not been that interested.
1:04:17	K: Not at all. SF: It hasn’t stopped you.
1:04:19	K: It’s a game to them.
1:04:20	SF: But it hasn’t prevented you from moving and acting with all of your passion and doing what you can.
1:04:27	K: All right, but apparently it does very little good, very little change.
1:04:32	SF: Well, I don’t know how one can measure that, sir.
1:04:37	K: Don’t bother, don’t bother with measurement.
1:04:39	SF: I don’t think you have waited for everyone else to have the same intensity and passion and insight that you have. K: Of course not.
1:04:45	SF: So why do you ask all of us to have an equal intensity and perception?
1:04:50	K: Because we are living together.
1:04:54	SF: But you also have lived with different people that have not been moving with you.
1:04:57	K: No, no, forget that. Living together in the same house, talking together, etc., etc. All right, if you say don’t... you haven’t had... you are not... you haven’t done anything – it’s all right too. I’m not depressed, I’m not defending – it’s all right.
1:05:19	SF: I don’t follow you, sir.
1:05:21	K: Sir, look, are we concerned in bringing about a new generation of people? That’s my basic question. Sir, I have a son. I want him to be totally not caught up in all this nonsense. So I have to find out, I have to inquire how to prevent him being caught in this web as he grows up. Right? So I am always watching, changing – you follow? – pushing. I may not succeed, but I’m... I don’t know. What do you say, sirs? You’re all very silent. I hope I’m not depressing. Am I?
1:07:05	Q: No.
1:07:08	K: All right. Thank God.
1:07:14	GB: But we seem sometimes here to give other sense of value, but not to step out completely of that. I have a feeling, you know, you ask whether we bring about another generation. I think we are not doing it. We have just changed the values.
1:07:47	SF: Excuse me for coming back to this, Krishnaji, but we have approached the question: what will change anybody?
1:07:56	K: Yes, sir.
1:08:00	SF: And we don’t stay with that.
1:08:06	K: All right, sir, let’s talk about it, sir, let’s go into it. What will make me change? Discuss it, sir. Go on with it. I’m fairly intelligent, I have read, I have gone through life, but at the end of it all I am more or less the same. I die at the end of it. Now, what will bring about a radical change in my heart and my mind – right? – and brain. I have tried everything. You follow? Not everything – I have tried drugs, I have tried meditation, I have tried this, I have tried that. Right? Have you?
1:09:07	Q: Yes.
1:09:08	K: All right. Then have they failed?
1:09:15	Q: Yes. K: Yes. If they have failed, then what? Suffering – we have been through that. You follow? Then what will change me?
1:09:38	WA: Sir, I’m wondering if we spend too much time wanting to step out of conditioning and not enough time just seeing the actual conditioning.
1:09:51	K: Let’s forget the beastly word ‘conditioning’. Now, what will make me – what?
1:10:02	SF: Change. K: Change. What will make me end my fear, my anxiety, my attachment? I am attached to you, and I know I am attached, I know the consequences, what the result of all that is – I am still attached. Now, what will make me break that rope that ties me to somebody? Do I want to break it? You see, you don’t discuss with me.
1:10:40	SF: Well, Krishnaji, the way one normally approaches this, having tried a lot of different things and having failed, one looks at the very small and also insignificant changes that have occurred.
1:10:57	K: Sir, just take…
1:10:58	SF: And one tries to see why that happens.
1:11:00	K: I am taking one thing – let’s work at that. Don’t take a lot of things. I am attached.
1:11:07	SF: You see, I don’t know what will end attachment because it hasn’t happened. K: No, sir, I am attached. Is it possible to break down that attachment? Because the consequences of attachments, we all know what the consequences are: fear, demanding – you follow? – the whole business of it. We all know it. Now, can I break it down, finish with it? Or say, ‘Well…’ – you follow? – carry on till I die. Come on, sir, discuss it.
1:11:44	Q: We can break it down but it’s myself.
1:12:05	K: You see, this is our difficulty, you don’t take one thing and go through it completely.
1:12:10	SF: Yes, sir. K: But we...
1:12:16	SF: But didn’t we even make a jump, for instance…
1:12:19	K: No, just take one thing. SF: Yes, but you asked: is it possible to end attachment?
1:12:26	K: I know I am attached to you. SF: Yes.
1:12:30	K: Or to this house – doesn’t matter, leave the house. I am attached to you emotionally, I depend on you, etc., etc., I am greatly... I demand in my attachment, I must have my way, and so there is perpetual conflict in myself, in my relationship with you. Right? And I see the consequences of all that, and I see how silly it is, but I go on. Now, wait – see how stupid it is. Do we see that? Not say, ‘Yes, it is stupid, it is unnecessary’, but carry on. ‘I am built that way, it’s my nature, it’s part of me’, and all the explanations. But I am still, at the end of all these explanations, I am still attached to you. It causes pain, it causes trouble, but doesn’t matter. I must have my way. Right? Now, can that end? Go on, sir. Take one thing and finish with it. That’s all I’m asking.
1:14:09	MZ: Krishnaji, each one of these one things…
1:14:11	K: No, don’t take other things.
1:14:13	MZ: …relates to the big central thing.
1:14:14	K: I am not concerned with the central thing. You are always saying this. Begin with one thing and end it. I am attached to this routine, that I go round the world year after year, because if I stopped doing it, I would be alone, I would be miserable. I have to be active. So I say, ‘I must do this’. Right? So I say... I have played with it, I know about it, whether I am attached or not – that doesn’t matter – but we are attached to something or other. Now, can we end it? Not the central thing, which has many spokes.
1:15:17	SF: Sir, do you feel that there is something beyond just staying with that question?
1:15:22	K: I stay with that question. I have no other problem for the moment. That’s the problem that is disturbing me.
1:15:35	SF: And are you suggesting that just staying with that question is…
1:15:42	K: No, I am just… no, I am not saying there is some other... I see…
1:15:47	SF: Because there are some other questions that come.
1:15:48	K: I am taking this one question.
1:15:50	SF: Yes, but there are some questions which come in taking that question.
1:15:56	K: Such as what?
1:15:57	SF: Such as how does one approach that kind of question?
1:16:00	K: That’s too complicated. I just want to find out how to end it. Don’t complicate it.
1:16:07	SF: How do you find out, Krishnaji? K: I’m showing you. I see the consequences of it.
1:16:13	SF: One sees them.
1:16:16	K: And either you say, ‘Well, that’s my life, I like to be that way’ – perpetual anxiety, perpetual clinging, all the rest of it. If you say, ‘That’s my life’, it’s all right. But if you want to understand what is freedom etc., etc., work at that one thing.
1:16:39	SF: What do you mean work at it, Krishnaji?
1:16:41	K: Look at it, what is the result, the consequences, the trouble it creates round you and in yourself. You follow, sir? Don’t keep on asking more questions – it is there. It is like a map spread in front of you.
1:17:00	SF: So you’re saying staying with the consequences of that attachment…
1:17:02	K: No, there it is. See the consequences. Do you want it?
1:17:06	SF: One says no. K: All right, then move.
1:17:11	SF: What do you mean by ‘move’ and how?
1:17:12	K: Get out of it.
1:17:15	SF: So you’re saying it is enough to just see the consequences and then that’s it. K: Of course.
1:17:19	MZ: But one also sees other consequences.
1:17:21	K: No, I am taking one consequence. You see?
1:17:24	MZ: Yes, but, Krishnaji, if you are looking at something, it has both good and bad consequences. Now, most people get in limbo between the good and the bad and never do anything about it.
1:17:35	K: If that’s what you want, do it. If that is your state, keep it.
1:17:45	SF: No, one is saying that one sees the consequences, one doesn’t want them, and yet one somehow keeps the attachment.
1:17:54	WA: You’re saying actually that we’re not being honest with ourselves. When we say we don’t want them, that’s not actually so, because if we really didn’t want them, they’d move. In fact, there seems to be an element that’s still...
1:18:06	K: What do you expect me to do? What shall I do? I am attached to you. I am attached to the image I have created about you, and I am attached to this whole – you follow? – the dependence, the feeling that if I get in that attachment, I feel happy, I feel miserable – you know, the whole... Don’t you know attachment? Is it something new?
1:18:32	Q: I get comfort out of that attachment also. I get comfort as well as the pain.
1:18:36	K: Yes, yes, I included that – comfort.
1:18:39	Q: And you want to get rid of the pain and keep the comfort.
1:18:40	K: Yes, just keep comfort. Q: Yes.
1:18:42	K: But it can’t be done.
1:18:43	Q: We would like to find a way. K: Nice!
1:18:48	DP: So the crucial question is not that I am attached, but what is attached, what is it that is attached, what am I?
1:18:56	K: No, no. You see? D P: That I am attached.
1:18:58	K: I am attached to you… D P: No.
1:19:00	K: …as a person. Please, don’t go into…
1:19:03	DP: No, it’s very important.
1:19:04	K: Oh, no.
1:19:05	DP: Just to say, ‘I am attached’, is not going into the…
1:19:07	K: You see how you are complicating? You see, I can complicate the damn thing as much as you want.
1:19:12	DP: But is it complicating it to ask the simple question: what is it that is attached?
1:19:17	K: I am attached to you. D P: No, what is it that is attached?
1:19:20	K: The person, you. D P: What am I?
1:19:24	K: No, no, I am not going beyond that. I am attached to you because it gives me comfort, it gives me pleasure.
1:19:34	DP: I’m not asking that. I’m not saying that.
1:19:37	K: I am saying it.
1:19:39	DP: I know, but I’m saying: is that the real question?
1:19:41	K: Of course.
1:19:42	DP: Isn’t the real question: what is it that is attached?
1:19:47	K: What is it that is attached? You whom I see every day.
1:19:56	DP: So what am I? I have to ask, find out.
1:19:59	K: Oh, then we go off into something else.
1:20:01	DP: It is not. K: Oh, yes, you do. I am only concerned with attachment, not who am I and who is attached.
1:20:11	DP: You must see the mechanics of it.
1:20:12	K: I can see the mechanics of it. It’s very simple.
1:20:17	DP: That I am an entity that wants to maintain itself.
1:20:26	K: All right, if you want that kind of stuff, keep it.
1:20:36	SF: Is there something in the quality of seeing? If we go back and we… K: Look, sir…
1:20:41	SF: …you say we see the consequences.
1:20:42	K: Look, Scott, just a minute. I am attached to you, to my wife or to the person I want to live with – it doesn’t matter – I am attached. You know what that word means. So we don’t have to discuss the word?
1:21:00	SF: No, I’m afraid I know it too well.
1:21:02	K: ‘Attaque’ – right. I put claws into you and I want you to hold you, and in that holding, attachment, there is pleasure, there is comfort, there is anxiety, there is fear, and also there is disturbance between you and me. I want my way, and you may not want my way. There is a conflict going on. All the consequences and more are there in that word. Now, if I want to live that way, it’s all right, but I say, ‘Look, see how stupid this way of living. There is no love, there is just…’ Right. Now, I see that, but yet I can’t let go. Right? Which is, intellectually I accept it, I accept the description, I accept the consequences intellectually, but inwardly I am so… my pleasure, my comfort matters tremendously. I hold on to that. Right? I am asking: can you be free of all that? That’s all. Not who you are, who am I and what is… – just go into one thing and go into it completely and finish with it. If we know to do that with one thing, you’ll be able to do with the whole, all of it. But we don’t.
1:23:09	SF: Does one go into that alone, sir?
1:23:10	K: Why not? Why not? Say, I am attached… Why? It’s so clear. What are you disturbed about? If I tell my wife really I want to be free of attachment, she will get a divorce or throw me out, but deeply that is my... I see the danger of this. There is no love in attachment. Don’t say what love is, and all the rest of it. You see, this is what I come up against: we never finish one thing completely. SF: Yes, sir.
1:24:22	K: Would you say, sirs, in understanding and going through the whole process of attachment, looking at it, investigating it, watching it, see the consequences, the pleasure, and all the rest, and end it – if you know how to do that, you will… you don’t have to pick up one by one, you know how to deal with it, the whole thing. But we don’t do that even. In my talk with the students the other day, a boy asked: why should we investigate? You understand? What’s the use of investigating into any problem? You understand what I’m saying? They accept things as they are. So we went into it, we talked. He began to see the necessity of it. Are we also like that? There is one problem, like attachment – or take any other problem, doesn’t matter – and work it out. We’ll talk about it as we are doing now. At the end of it, my talking, will it help you to be free of it? Talking. Or how will you receive such a thing, sir? And I want my student not to go through all this business. I want to help him – I am using the word ‘help’ – I want to help him not to go through attachment and the pain of it, the pleasure of it, the anxiety – you follow? – all that’s involved in it. I want to prevent at any price, say, ‘For God’s sake, don’t go through that’. Do you feel like that? You haven’t answered my question. Do you feel like that? Must they go through beer, whisky – you follow? – all that – wave the flag, standing in a line for when the queen passes – my God! So I want to prevent it, if I can. Probably I can’t, but I am going to try my damnedest to see that it... Should we stop?
1:29:33	Q: Are the students waiting? Q: Yes.
1:29:37	MZ: They have waited probably half an hour.
1:29:40	K: I don’t know, you tell me when to stop – it’s not my business.
1:29:46	DS: Krishnaji, I think we ought to stop.
1:29:48	K: All right, I will stop. It’s over.