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BR83DSS1.1 - What are the factors of jealousy?
Brockwood Park, UK - 2 June 1983
Discussion with Staff and Students 1.1



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first discussion with the teachers and students at Brockwood Park, 1983.
0:14 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about?
0:18 Questioner: Well, I had a question. I am wondering how we can ever be sure that if we try to find out something and we think we have found out, whether that is actually true or whether that is just another trick of the mind or whether we are fooling ourselves or whether the observation is really true.
0:39 K: Has everybody heard that question? What else shall we talk about?
0:47 Q: Can we talk about the problem of human existence from the dawn of time to this 2nd of June 1983?
1:00 K: I haven’t quite understood the question. (Laughter)
1:03 Q: The problem, can we talk about the problem of human existence from the dawn of time to today?
1:11 K: Aha – human existence from ancient days till now?
1:15 Q: Yes.
1:18 K: Anything else?
1:19 Q: Yes, why does it seem to be impossible for us to drop our egos?
1:31 K: Why does it seem impossible to stop our ego, our selfishness.
1:39 Q: What has meaning in life?
1:44 K: What has meaning in life. Good lord! Now, which of these questions is important? What do you think, which is important? Do tell me. Which question?
2:14 Q: I think your first question is important.
2:20 K: Which is what?
2:22 Q: I don’t exactly remember.
2:24 Q: Well, how we can know that if we find out something…
2:27 K: If you find out something whether it is true or false?
2:31 Q: Yes.
2:32 Q: And when you find out something, that you can find it out for just a few seconds and then you forget about it and then you will meet the same situation again, which then means I think that you have not really found out.
2:46 K: Yes, yes, yes. Shall we talk about that? Are you willing to talk about that?
2:52 Q: Yes.
2:55 K: And not why human beings are what they are from the ancient days till now. Is that it? That was your question.
3:08 Q: Why they are what they are, is that what you said?
3:13 K: Why from ancient days human beings, what they were, and are still like that now.
3:21 Q: Yes.
3:22 K: Yes.
3:23 Q: And the problems we have created.
3:27 K: Yes, the problems which the ancient people had, we still carry on the same problems.
3:36 Q: Yes.
3:37 K: Right?
3:39 Q: Yes.
3:40 K: Yes. Shall we include that too, in your question? All right? Anything else?
3:49 Q: Well, I would like to know how it comes that if you have a group of people that you can have one half who wants to stick to the traditional thing more than is necessary and the other half tries to be rebellious more than is necessary.
4:13 K: Why can’t we all cooperate together? Is that it? One group against another group, one nation against another nation. Right?
4:25 Q: Yes, but also that you have the difference between people who are so called progressive and the other people who are so-called conservative.
4:31 K: Those who are conservative, those who are progressive.
4:38 Q: Yes.
4:40 K: Why is there this division? Right? Could we put your question: why is it that human beings cannot cooperate? Which comes to the same thing. You think one thing, I think another – right? – and I am sticking to mine and you are sticking to yours – your point of view, your prejudice, and I, with my prejudice, with my bias, so we can never cooperate. So can we bring all this into that first question? Which is, why human beings have lived the way they have with all the problems, from the ancient days till now. And they have also, in their search, in their way of living, said to themselves or expressed it outwardly that when they find something to be true, and later on they discover it to be false, and how does one distinguish or separate or be aware of the false and the true, and the false always the false, and the true always true? Right? That is your question, isn’t it? So we can include all this. May we? Before we enter into this, may I ask you a question too? What are you interested in? All of you, what interests you?
6:45 Q: Well, I am interested in finding out what I will do in my life.
6:55 K: What is in the future?
6:56 Q: Yes. What I really want to do, not just…
6:58 K: Yes. So, what is… that is my question. What is your future? Would you have interest in discussing that? Or would you want your question answered first?
7:21 Q: Well, yes, I would like to. I would like to have it answered, yes.
7:29 K: You would like…
7:30 Q: ...to have it answered.
7:31 K: What, which one? Yours?
7:33 Q: Yes. Or the others.
7:35 K: We will come to that. I also asked, if I may, the question, what you are interested in. I can postpone that. So, all right, you don’t want to go into that now.
7:44 Q: No, it’s all right.
7:46 Q: Yes.
7:47 Q: It would be very nice if we could go into your question.
7:49 K: But she objects, she wants it first.
7:52 Q: Well, not necessarily.
7:53 Q: Aren’t these all... I don’t know if it’s the same question but they seem all related to the question of what has meaning in life.
8:06 K: Yes. What are you going to do in the future, what is your life? Aren’t you concerned, what you are going to do in life, what is your future? The general silence.
8:28 Q: I think the thing that people want is, what they think… I think what most people are interested in and what they think about the future is the way how we can live.
8:44 K: Which is the same thing, sir.
8:46 Q: Yes, but how they can live as pleasant as possible. I think that is what most people do.
8:54 K: Yes. It comes to the same thing, doesn’t it? I mean suppose I am your age, I would be concerned what I am going to do in the future, what is my future? As she wants her question answered first, we will go into that, shall we? All right? Why have human beings, who have lived on this earth for at least a thousand, millions of years, and some of the scientists, archaeologists say that we have really evolved within the last fifty thousand years – let’s start with that – why have we not changed? Why are we what we were from the ancient days till now? That is your question?
10:08 Q: Yes.
10:10 K: And during that existence of forty, fifty million years we have never found what is true and what is false – I am answering your question – and having discovered what is true it appears gradually that it becomes illusory, a false thing. And people have given their lives to find out what is true and stick to it. Right? Now how will you find out what is true and what is false, what is illusory, what is actual, what is real, abiding and what is fleeting, passing? Right? How will you find out?
11:17 Q: Well, I thought by observing, but then later I discovered that in my observation I wasn’t true, too.
11:27 K: So, you will judge according to your capacity. Right?
11:32 Q: Capacity?
11:34 K: Yes. According to your perception, according to your weighing one against the other. Is that it?
11:48 Q: Well, I don’t know.
11:50 K: I am asking you. How will you find out what is true and that truth always true and doesn’t become something else at the end of twenty years? Right? And how do you distinguish that which is true and that which is false, illusory? How do you discern?
12:18 Q: Maybe one can start with facts.
12:24 K: So, then, what are facts?
12:31 Q: There a man is sitting on a chair over there – that is a fact.
12:39 K: That is a fact. So, that which you are seeing – right? – visually, optically seeing, and also there is a fact which is happening inwardly. Right? There is fact which is happening outwardly – right? – sun rises in the east, sun sets in the west. That is a fact. There is darkness and light. That is a fact. Right? You call yourself an American and another calls himself Russian. That is a fact. Right? You are clever, another is not clever. That is a fact. Right? You are taller and the other is shorter. That is a fact. But you are not talking about that, are you?
13:45 Q: No.
13:46 K: No. So what were you talking about?
13:49 Q: Well, for example, if I see I am jealous, and I just see it, and then I kind of think that it goes away by seeing it, and then I think it’s gone but actually later I...
14:02 K: ...I find it comes back.
14:04 Q: Yes. Or I suppress it so long...
14:07 K: So, we are not talking about physical things, are you?
14:10 Q: No.
14:11 K: Right? Not that you are tall and I am short or somebody is beautiful, somebody else is not, sun is rising in the east – we are not talking at that level, are we? We all agree to that? Then we are talking about the reactions – right? – called jealousy, fear, envy – right? – ambition to be something, and that ambition continues but the object changes. Agree? I am ambitious to become a politician but after ten years I say, ‘Good lord, I have wasted my life. I don’t want to be a politician, I want to be a butcher.’ No, I would not. A monk. (Laughter) Right? So, we are talking about psychological things. Right? You agree? Inward reactions, jealousy, envy, greed, ambition and so on. Now, go on. How do I discern that which is true and that which is false? As you pointed out, I am jealous, I watch it very carefully, the cause of it, and I discover for the time being that jealousy has gone. But a week later it appears again. Right? So, what I thought, something, jealousy has gone, but it returns, and you want to find out the truth, whether it can end at all. Right? That’s it, isn’t it? Whether jealousy can end completely, not return. Right? Is that your question? Is that your question too?
16:42 Q: And how we can be sure that...
16:44 K: ...it never returns?
16:45 Q: Yes.
16:46 K: Yes, we will go into that. I want to be quite sure that is what we are talking about.
16:55 Q: Yes.
16:56 K: I want to be quite clear. Right? Do you agree to all that? How do you find out? How do you find out for yourself, without somebody telling you – right? – that once you have seen the fact that you are jealous, and by investigating the cause of it and being free of the cause – right? – it will never again return. Right? Now, how will you find that out?
17:46 Q: By following feelings such as jealousy to the end.
17:52 K: Follow it sir, follow it. How can you follow it so that it won’t arise in ten years’ time?
18:04 Q: By wanting to know what it is.
18:06 K: You don’t know what it is. So let’s investigate what jealousy is. What is it?
18:15 Q: Well it is a fear of being nothing. If I see somebody who has more than me…
18:27 K: Look sir, be practical or pragmatic or definite. I am jealous of you because you have got brains and I haven’t got it. Right? You can think and I can’t think. You are sensitive, I am not. Right? Right? That is one form of jealousy. Which is, by comparing myself with you I become jealous. Right?
19:03 Q: But it is not just the comparison.
19:06 K: I am coming to that, lady. That is one of the factors, isn’t it? One of the factors is, I compare myself with you. You have got a big house, you have got good clothes, you have money, you look nice, but I have no money, I live in poverty, but I see you going about in a car, I become jealous, envious of you. Which is a form of jealousy. Right? What are the other factors?
19:46 Q: Having nothing to hold on to.
19:56 K: That is not jealousy.
19:58 Q: No, but that is one of the causes of jealousy.
20:03 K: I have nothing but you have everything. It comes to the same thing.
20:07 Q: It is that you want the other thing.
20:14 K: You want the other thing.
20:16 Q: Yes.
20:17 K: I haven’t got it. We said that. You have got a big house and I have got a poor house.
20:22 Q: But that doesn’t matter. I mean, if I just say, ‘Well, you have a big white house and a Rolls Royce…’
20:28 K: I know, but you don’t say that. You say, ‘All right, I don’t care if you have big house and I am satisfied with my house.’ There is no form of jealousy.
20:38 Q: No, but if I see that you have a big white house and I say, ‘Hey, I wish I had a house like that,’ and then I dislike you because you have got one and I haven’t and I want it.
20:52 K: That is the same thing lady.
20:53 Q: No, when you say...
20:57 K: I want to be like you. I want to have the things that you have. That’s envy.
21:06 Q: Yes.
21:07 K: Which means comparing.
21:09 Q: All right.
21:13 K: Not ‘all right’. Look at it.
21:16 Q: No, I see that comparison is in there but it seems like since comparison also doesn’t create envy...
21:23 K: I am coming to that.
21:25 Q: That you have to be real careful when you say that comparison...
21:27 K: It is one of the factors, I said. Right?
21:32 Q: Yes. But is it important to find out what jealousy is in order to answer the question how do we know we are fooling ourselves or not?
21:42 K: We are coming to that. First, we must be clear what we mean by jealousy.
21:47 Q: Well, I mean it is the same question with anger or…
21:51 K: Any of them, any of them. I said that – jealousy, hatred, envy, greed, fear, anxiety. Right? Take any of them and find out whether one of them can ever be completely gone – right? – and never return. That’s what we are doing. We took jealousy. Now, either it arises through comparison. Right? We agreed to that. You are quite sure.
22:31 Q: Yes.
22:32 K: Second, I possess you as my friend or my wife or husband or my girlfriend and so on – you are with me. Right? And you turn to somebody else. Then I become jealous of you. Then I get angry. Right? Anger, jealousy, is a form of hatred. Right? I am talking, you are not investigating. Don’t agree, look at it first. Right? So through comparison there is jealousy, through possession there is jealousy. Right? I possess and it gets lost. I possess my wife or my husband and the husband or the wife moves away from me, looks at somebody else or goes somewhere. She becomes more clever than I am and that is also – there is jealousy. Right? Right? Agree? So, where there is comparison there is jealousy. Where there is possessiveness there is jealousy.
24:04 Q: No. It is not that where there is comparison there is jealousy, it’s that where there is jealousy there is comparison, and there is a big difference between those two.
24:17 K: No lady, you agreed a few minutes ago.
24:20 Q: Ah, wait a minute. What I agreed to was that there must be comparison in order to be jealous, but the things you keep listing – possession, comparison, desire…
24:32 K: Look, we are trying to find out how jealousy arises. Right?
24:38 Q: Yes.
24:39 K: Jealousy. If I am completely satisfied, there is no jealousy.
24:45 Q: Obviously.
24:46 K: Right?
24:47 Q: Yes.
24:48 K: I am not satisfied when I compare myself with you who have a bigger house.
24:55 Q: But isn’t the jealousy already there before you do the comparison?
24:59 K: No. If I am satisfied I am not jealous.
25:03 Q: I don’t know, because…
25:05 Q: Isn’t she simply saying that you can’t compare yourself with another without any feeling of jealousy arising?
25:10 K: Ah, wait, that is a different matter.
25:11 Q: But that is what she is trying…
25:13 Q: That’s what I am trying to say.
25:14 K: Ah, wait a minute. Wait.
25:16 Q: You can compare, possess or desire, all three of them you can do without being jealous.
25:21 K: So you are saying there is no jealousy or envy when I am – what?
25:31 Q: I am saying that there’s not necessarily…
25:33 K: I know. I am sorry – ‘not necessarily’ – I want to know… You see, you are dodging it. I want to know what causes jealousy. Right? You tell me what causes jealousy.
25:49 Q: I don’t know. But I can tell you that it is not these three things: comparison, desire or possession.
25:55 K: I didn’t say desire, possessiveness. Comparison...
26:01 Q: You also said wanting a big white house or whatever.
26:04 K: No, no. Please…
26:06 Q: Okay, well then let’s say comparison and possessiveness.
26:08 K: Wait. Those are one or two factors aren’t they?
26:12 Q: Yes. But…
26:14 K: There may be more. Wait.
26:16 Q: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You can do both of those and not be jealous. So, mustn’t there be another factor?
26:19 K: I don’t think we are understanding each other. Now, just a minute, let’s go slowly into this. Would you agree, if you had everything you want you wouldn’t be jealous?
26:36 Q: Okay.
26:37 K: You agree?
26:38 Q: Hmm, hmm.
26:40 K: Not ‘hmm, hmm’.
26:42 Q: Yes. (Laughter)
26:44 K: Yes. So, you can have... ever be satisfied with what you have. Can you ever be satisfied with what you have?
26:55 Q: I don’t know.
26:59 K: Therefore what? You are satisfied one day with this. Right? Next day you want something more.
27:12 Q: Yes.
27:13 K: So, you are increasing your satisfaction.
27:17 Q: I don’t understand what you are saying.
27:20 K: What do you mean you don’t understand?
27:21 Q: Well, I mean, when you say you are increasing your satisfaction, what does that mean? Does that mean that you are getting more and more satisfied because you have more of the things that you want?
27:37 K: No. As long as you are completely satisfied, gratified, happy, then there is no problem of jealousy.
27:45 Q: Oh yes, okay.
27:52 K: Not ‘okay’. (Laughs)
27:56 Q: Yes.
27:57 K: Don’t go back afterwards.
27:58 Q: I won’t go back on that.
27:59 K: On what?
28:03 Q: On saying that as long as you are gratified completely there’s no jealousy.
28:07 K: That’s all I am saying. No jealousy.
28:10 Q: But is there not something, possibly, which... mustn’t there be something there which will bring jealousy into play the minute you are not gratified?
28:26 K: What?
28:27 Q: Okay, suppose you have this…
28:30 K: Not ‘okay’.
28:31 Q: (Laughs) I am sorry. Suppose I have this spoiled rich kid, who has had everything he wants.
28:40 K: No, he is satisfied. Don’t say ‘everything he wants’ – satisfied.
28:44 Q: Okay. Excuse me. All right. (Laughs) He is completely satisfied.
28:48 K: That’s all.
28:49 Q: He is not jealous.
28:50 K: Of course not.
28:53 Q: But…
28:54 K: All right.
28:56 Q: …one day he is walking through the park and he sees some other kid with a red fire engine and he really likes it and wants the red fire engine and he can’t have it…
29:06 K: Therefore…
29:07 Q: Therefore he is jealous of the other kid.
29:08 K: That’s all I am saying.
29:09 Q: He’s not completely satisfied. At that moment he is not completely satisfied because he wants that object.
29:16 Q: Right. But isn’t there something in the child even while he is being satisfied which makes it possible for him to be jealous?
29:27 K: Of course.
29:28 Q: The instant that he is not.
29:29 K: Look, I said when he is completely satisfied. I used the word ‘completely’.
29:34 Q: Do you mean like forever?
29:36 K: Look lady, I…
29:38 Q: Okay, okay, I am sorry, I am sorry.
29:42 K: I am completely satisfied with what I have. Wait a minute. And I see you having much more than I have. I have dissatisfaction then.
29:57 Q: Yes.
29:59 K: That dissatisfaction arises by looking at what you have – the more – which means I compare.
30:10 Q: Yes.
30:11 K: So, where there is comparison...
30:15 Q: No.
30:17 Q: You said that this boy was completely satisfied but one day he was going along in a park, he saw a boy with a fire engine. He then…
30:32 Q: Then he is dissatisfied.
30:34 Q: Then he is dissatisfied. Then he is no longer completely satisfied.
30:37 Q: Okay, but the point that I am trying to make is that doesn’t that mean that there is something in the child which enables him to be jealous even before he has the chance to be dissatisfied?
30:51 Q: Well, do you mean that... (inaudible)
30:54 Q: No. He is completely satisfied.
30:58 Q: (Inaudible) ...is that a weakness, a vulnerability?
31:03 Q: Yes.
31:05 Q: Katie, are you saying that in all human beings there is an element of jealousy?
31:10 Q: I am not talking about all human beings. I am just saying in the case of this kid, if you are completely satisfied and then you are for some reason not satisfied and you throw a temper tantrum because you are jealous, there must be something in you which enables you to be jealous, because you are not satisfied.
31:30 K: Nobody is – look lady – nobody is satisfied completely, forever. That’s all. Right? Nobody.
31:44 Q: Yes. In my experience that is correct.
31:55 K: No. Right. So there is always the seed of discontent, which arises when there is ‘the more’.
32:12 Q: Yes.
32:15 K: The word ‘more’ means – what? – comparison.
32:20 Q: Yes, but you cannot say where there is comparison there is jealousy.
32:26 K: I did not say that. Wait a minute. I led up to it. Don’t just say just two words and pick it up. I said as long as you are satisfied there is no jealousy, but in all human beings there is the seed of dissatisfaction. I am not satisfied with what I have, I want something more. When there is the word ‘more’, it means measurement, which is comparison.
33:08 Q: Yes.
33:09 K: Therefore I am saying, as long as I am satisfied there is no comparison, but the moment I begin to compare there is dissatisfaction, which you call jealousy or give it another name. What is difficulty?
33:27 Q: Even if you compare you don’t have to be jealous.
33:29 Q: Yes, your logic is going backwards when you say that. Forgive me for saying so.
33:34 K: You can – there is nothing to forgive. You don’t have to say ‘forgive’.
33:39 Q: When you say that where there is comparison there is jealousy. Even at the end, even though you have defended everything, said, you know, because of this then there’s... because of this then there’s... then when you come out with ‘where there is comparison there is jealousy’...
33:55 K: Of course.
33:56 Q: Isn’t it that you mean that it isn’t so in every case? There is always the element of comparison in jealousy, but comparison in itself doesn’t necessarily mean jealousy.
34:05 Q: Yes, it’s like saying...
34:06 K: Are you saying you can compare and not be jealous?
34:13 Q: Yes.
34:14 K: Wait a minute. Go slowly. I can compare myself with you who are bright, and all right, I say, ‘She is bright.’ That is not necessarily jealousy.
34:29 Q: But the moment you say ‘brighter’, that is.
34:33 K: That is all I…
34:35 Q: I mean, if you say someone is bright, then you are not thinking I am dull and he is bright. But if you say he is bright and I am dull, then that is comparison.
34:45 Q: Yes, but then still you don’t have to be jealous. I can say that Tom plays the guitar better than I do. That doesn’t mean that I am jealous of him.
34:54 K: Of course not. I said that.
34:56 Q: But you also said that where there is comparison there is jealousy.
35:01 Q: There can’t be. There can be. There can be both sides to it.
35:04 Q: No, but he is saying...
35:05 K: No, no, lady, careful, careful. I said very carefully, where…
35:08 Q: We are talking about the aspect of jealousy.
35:15 K: Where there is comparison there can be jealousy. Where there is comparison there can be no jealousy.
35:21 Q: Okay.
35:22 K: That is all I am saying.
35:23 Q: That is the point that I have been trying to make.
35:27 K: Good, good. Agreed, agreed, agreed. My goodness, you have taken a long time over it. Where there is comparison there can be jealousy. Where there is comparison there may not be jealousy. Right. Now, what are the other factors of jealousy?
35:46 Q: A loss of personal security.
35:52 K: Yes, personal security. You are secure, I am not. I can leave it at that and say, ‘Yes, he is secure, I am not’ – there is no envy there, jealousy. But when I begin to say, ‘By Jove, I would like to be as secure as you are’ – right? – there is comparison.
36:17 Q: And jealousy.
36:20 K: Jealousy begins. Or I can compare and I will be jealous. Right?
36:29 Q: Sir, what is the essential difference in the statements: ‘He is more secure than I am’ and, ‘I would like to be as secure as he is.’
36:41 K: Yes.
36:42 Q: The second one implies an ideal.
36:46 K: No, not an ideal. He is secure. Right? He has got insurance, he has got money, he has got a big house, his father has inherited money – he is secure and I am not. Right? I say, ‘Yes, that’s all right,’ but the moment I say I must be like him, which is comparison, of course then there is jealousy.
37:18 Q: Yes.
37:19 K: Right?
37:20 Q: Yes. But what is the difference between.
37:28 K: I showed that to you.
37:30 Q: I don’t mean I don’t understand it but I am saying...
37:34 K: What is the difference? He is secure and I am not, and as long as I say, ‘Yes, that’s all right. Yes, that is a fact,’ and just leave it like that, there is no problem, I am not jealous.
37:47 Q: But how can we be sure what we actually think? How can we be sure that…
37:53 K: That is the point. I am coming to that presently. But when I compare myself with him there is jealousy. When I want what he has – right? – that is envy, that is jealousy.
38:10 Q: Yes.
38:11 K: It’s clear, these two. Now what are the other factors of jealousy? Come on, you are all…
38:25 Q: Possession.
38:28 K: Possession, you said. Right? I possess my wife, by law or by agreement or by various forms of attachments and so on. I possess my wife and she possesses me. Right? As long as there is possession there is the fear of losing. She might go away. She might go off with another man, or do various things. Then I become jealous of him, of her. Right? Agree? That is another form, another factor that causes jealousy. Right?
39:28 Q: Yes.
39:30 K: It may not be in your experience at present.
39:33 Q: No, I just mean I’m not sure that it’s different.
39:40 K: Oh yes, it’s different. I possess, I hold. I have. I have her. Right?
39:53 Q: But isn’t that caused by thinking, ‘Well, if she gets away’?
40:00 K: No, but she has.
40:02 Q: Okay, suppose she has gotten away. She has gone off with some other guy.
40:08 K: No, my lady. He or she looks at another person, goes off for a day or two. I get jealous. Right? That’s all I am saying. Why do you elaborate about that?
40:22 Q: I am just... it doesn’t seem to me that that is any different from the phenomenon of comparison.
40:29 K: Oh no, it is different. There is no comparison there. I have lost her. I am losing her. No? Right?
40:40 Q: Isn’t there comparison? You compare having had the person and losing her.
40:46 K: Yes, you can do that too.
40:47 Q: Or you compare you having her with your neighbour having her.
40:49 K: Yes, that is the same. Go on, investigate some more. What are the factors that create envy?
40:55 Q: Maybe it is dissatisfaction. We saw that there seems to be the seed of dissatisfaction in human beings.
41:07 K: Yes sir, we said that, that includes. As long as I am comparing and that comparing may not necessarily bring about jealousy, but there is jealousy through comparison when I want the same thing that you have – compare. Right? Right? We agreed to that. For God’s sake don’t let’s go back to it. Second, we said – what was it? – possession. Now I am asking what is the other factor?
41:42 Q: I think there must be some kind of a hope that…
41:46 K: ...she will return…
41:47 Q: …when you get that, when you get that thing you will be happy.
41:51 K: Yes. I hope she will return but in the meantime I am angry about it, I am upset about it. Don’t you know? Do you know jealousy?
42:04 Q: It hurts.
42:06 K: Don’t you know? Don’t you know jealousy all of you? Or you are all safe, protected from jealousy? So you know jealousy. So how does it arise? Investigate that.
42:22 Q: Well, you feel pain.
42:24 K: Yes, pain. Jealousy is a form of pain. Go on sir, how does it arise?
42:32 Q: Well, the pain from wanting to get away from it.
42:40 K: You had no pain as long as she or he remained with you. But the moment she moved away there is pain, and that is called jealousy. Same thing. Now I am asking what are the others? Are there other factors at all?
43:03 Q: You can remember the thing that you have had before.
43:12 K: Yes, I have had pleasant memories of being with her. Same factor.
43:19 Q: Which brings in thought.
43:22 K: Yes. Go on, find out the other factors.
43:28 Q: Ambition.
43:30 K: Ambition, all right. I am ambitious, but you have greater ambition than I have. Right? Right? That is jealousy, comparison.
43:47 Q: But what if you don’t have any ambition?
43:56 K: Oh lord. I said look. You have no ambition, you are not... I doubt it. There are very, very few people in the world that have no ambition of some kind or another. Go on, you are not looking at it carefully. You are not investigating; I am telling you.
44:17 Q: Jealousy arises because of some movement in the brain.
44:24 K: Sir, we will go into that presently, into the brain, but I am asking you: what are the factors of jealousy? What are the causes of jealousy? We said comparison. Right? We said possessiveness. Right? And what else?
44:48 Q: Isn’t it because you feel that... (inaudible)
44:54 K: What does that mean?
44:56 Q: That you feel lonely or empty or whatever.
45:00 K: I am a dull person, explain to me.
45:10 Q: When you feel lonely you say, ‘I must be with somebody. I mustn’t be lonely.’
45:22 Q: That you feel something inside yourself, if you feel empty, that you think that this should be filled up from the outside.
45:30 K: Sir, then I am not jealous. I am talking of envy, jealous – don’t introduce another factor. You have something I haven’t got. Right? What are you trying to tell me?
45:44 Q: Well, it appear s to me when jealousy arises we are afraid of confronting that which we don’t know.
45:55 K: I am afraid. Fear is not jealousy, is it?
45:59 Q: Well it’s one of the causes of jealousy.
46:03 K: No, sir. Is fear jealousy?
46:07 Q: Well I am afraid I have nothing so I want something and I pursue something.
46:17 Q: Isn’t it that you see you have nothing?
46:20 Q: Yes.
46:21 Q: And you want something else.
46:22 Q: Yes, I am afraid of that. So I want to possess something.
46:26 Q: Well, no, because just anything won’t do it. That red fire engine.
46:34 Q: That sounds too abstract.
46:38 Q: I am afraid that I have not that, I don’t have that red fire engine.
46:44 Q: Why are you afraid of it?
46:45 Q: Because I don’t have it.
46:46 Q: So? I don’t see that that means you are afraid of it.
46:48 K: That is not generally, that is not… You have something I haven’t got. You have a watch and I haven’t got a watch. I am not afraid of it.
46:52 Q: Well, no, no, no, no.
46:58 Q: I think that what we said about everybody having the seed of dissatisfaction in them is very important.
47:05 K: What? What?
47:07 Q: We said that all people have the seed of dissatisfaction and that seems like somewhere in there is the crux of the whole thing.
47:22 K: That is, as long as I am satisfied, there is no problem. Right? But this never happens. I am satisfied but suddenly something happens, I am dissatisfied. Right?
47:40 Q: Yes.
47:41 K: So, unless you pursue what is the cause of dissatisfaction – which is a different matter altogether. Right? We are pursuing jealousy, lady, not the ending of all discontent.
48:01 Q: But sir, do need to have satisfaction? Do you actually need, or do you think you need to have satisfaction?
48:18 K: I think it is... personally, I think it is stupid to be satisfied.
48:27 Q: What if you have dissatisfaction about why you are alive?
48:32 K: But lady, I told you carefully, if you will forgive me for repeating it, we are not discussing dissatisfaction and the cause of dissatisfaction. We are discussing what is the cause of jealousy. Right? And whether jealousy can ever disappear, not appear again. That is your question.
48:58 Q: Yes, well...
49:00 K: This comes to the same thing. Which is, you have found something real and it changes later on.
49:09 Q: Yes.
49:10 K: And you are asking: is there something that is not changeable?
49:15 Q: Well how can we find out that?
49:18 K: We are coming to that lady, unless you... Are you satisfied? Are you agreed up to this point? Factors of jealousy are... one of the factors is comparison, the other is possessiveness. Right? Right? What are the other factors? You haven’t investigated. I am asking what are the other factors of jealousy?
49:53 Q: Judgment.
49:55 K: Judgment. You are a better judge than I am. Comes to the same thing. Please, the moment you use the word ‘better’ or ‘the more’ there must be comparison. Right?
50:22 Q: I think she means that by judging over people and yourself you become jealous.
50:27 K: Which is what? I judge you. Same thing. Right? Right?
50:34 Q: Yes.
50:36 K: I see. What are the other factors? Is there any other factor that brings jealousy or there is only one factor? There is only one factor.
51:00 Q: I think it is fear not to be who you are.
51:04 K: Yes, fear is not jealousy.
51:07 Q: No but it brings jealousy.
51:12 K: Comparison.
51:14 Q: Yes.
51:16 K: So, is there only one factor and not many factors?
51:27 Q: Image of myself.
51:32 K: Image?
51:34 Q: Image of myself.
51:37 K: No, I said, look, is there only factor of jealousy or there are many factors? You are not…
51:58 Q: Both possessiveness and comparison come from thought.
51:59 K: Yes sir, but I don’t want… shall we inquire into thought? That leads us away for the moment. If you don’t mind, let us stick to this. She wants one thing very, very clear which is: I think I have got rid of jealousy forever but later on, a week later on I find that it comes back. What I thought was a lasting, true thing is not so. So is there a lasting, permanent, unchangeable thing? That is what you are asking.
52:48 Q: But Krishnaji, she was also asking: how can I know that I am not fooling myself about the answer?
53:00 Q: Yes.
53:01 K: Yes, it comes to the same thing, sir.
53:02 Q: No, but in terms of suppression. If say I want to understand jealousy and be rid of it, how can I be sure that I don’t end up simply suppressing it?
53:07 K: Yes. We are going to find out. We are going to find out. How will you find out?
53:14 Q: Well, that is the problem.
53:19 K: No, it is not a problem. Why do you make a problem?
53:31 Q: Well, because I can’t trust my own observation.
53:34 K: So, why can’t you? Go into it step by step. Why can’t you?
53:40 Q: Because I am not sure whether I...
53:45 K: Yes, so, which means what?
53:50 Q: That you are confused.
53:52 K: No. Which means what?
53:54 Q: (Inaudible)
53:55 K: You can’t rely on your judgment, on your perception, on your understanding. Why can’t you?
54:09 Q: Because we see those feelings arise.
54:12 K: Stop there for a few minutes, sir. Just wait, wait. This is a question. Ask that question. Wait for an answer. Find out. Don’t immediately answer. You can’t rely on yourself, your judgment is not pure, your clarity of looking at it is obscure. Right? So what does that all indicate? Go slowly?
54:43 Q: That indicates ignorance.
54:46 K: No. Why? No. Please sir, don’t introduce don’t the word ‘ignorance’. What does that mean when I cannot rely on myself, my outlook, my judgment, my perception, my observation, what does the word indicate to me?
55:13 Q: Okay, your question is: if I...
55:16 K: No, what does it indicate to me?
55:18 Q: We don’t know who we are.
55:22 K: I can’t hear, sir.
55:26 Q: We don’t know who we are.
55:33 K: No. It doesn’t indicate to me… Tell me! I can tell you. You are waiting for me.
55:39 Q: We do not pay complete attention to what we do.
55:43 K: No sir, I am not saying… Stick to it, please. Stick to what I am saying, asking. I cannot rely on my judgment. I cannot rely on my perception. My perception is not absolutely clear. I am biased. I see all that. What does that indicate to me? Indicate to me, not to you.
56:14 Q: It indicates that one’s perception can be coloured.
56:19 K: Yes.
56:20 Q: One has to be…
56:23 K: What is that indicating? Sir, go further.
56:27 Q: It indicates, sir, that you have no answer to the problem.
56:32 K: Yes. Which means what? Not ‘a problem’. Sir, I have come to a certain judgment and I find later on it is wrong. Right? I see something. I thought I saw something very clearly but I see now it is not clear. I made certain decisions and it is not... it has changed again. So what does it all indicate to me? What is it indicate to you?
57:10 Q: Well, that...
57:12 K: I am asking her. Let her reply first. You raised this question.
57:22 Q: Yes.
57:24 K: So you have to find an answer for it.
57:28 Q: Yes, but...
57:29 K: See, what does that indicate that to you?
57:30 Q: We have no genuine interest in the question.
57:38 K: Does it indicate to you that you can’t rely on your judgment?
57:49 Q: Yes.
57:51 K: Does it indicate to you that you don’t see things clearly?
57:56 Q: Yes. And that I am afraid that...
58:03 K: No, wait, wait. Doesn’t it indicate to you that you cannot… that you are incapable of looking at things absolutely clearly. So what does that all mean to you?
58:17 Q: That you will get stuck, you won’t be able to think anymore.
58:23 K: What does it mean to you? What is the difficulty, lady?
58:27 Q: We are inadequate. We need another’s help.
58:31 K: You are inadequate. You are not capable. So what does that indicate? To me it indicates – I can tell you but you won’t, you don’t…
58:43 Q: Does that indicate that we are always trying to do something about it?
58:48 K: No sir. It indicates to me that I am a very confused person. I cannot rely on my own judgments. What? Right? Go further – what does it imply?
59:14 Q: It implies that I depend on others to...
59:25 K: Yes sir. I can’t depend on others. They are equally confused as I am.
59:34 Q: No, but you do depend on others. You do depend on others.
59:38 K: Therefore...
59:39 Q: That is the way you have been educated.
59:40 K: Yes sir. Go on. You see? Go on.
59:44 Q: I don’t know that has anything to do with it.
59:45 Q: It indicates that I need to be sceptical of any conclusion I get.
59:48 K: Yes sir. Go a little further back, deeper into it. I can rely on my judgment buying two cameras, between two cameras. I can rely on my judgment about buying a car, because I compare, I evaluate, I have so much money – you follow? – I can do all that. But here, apparently, I can’t do it. Right? Right? So to do it, what is necessary? Go slowly. Inquire. I cannot rely on my judgment, I cannot rely on my – etc., etc. So, to rely on my judgment what have I to be?
1:00:58 Q: Not confused.
1:01:00 K: No, no, don’t use that word.
1:01:07 Q: We have to be objective.
1:01:09 K: I have been objective about a car. I have been objective about buying two dresses, between two cameras and so on. Here, apparently, I can’t be objective. Which means what?
1:01:31 Q: We are living in a confused world.
1:01:36 K: I am confused. Go. I said go deeper. To be not confused…
1:01:42 Q: Perhaps one...
1:01:44 K: No, listen, listen. I said not to be confused, not to rely on my judgment, what is necessary?
1:01:56 Q: You need the energy to find out.
1:02:04 Q: Dissatisfaction.
1:02:06 Q: You need order.
1:02:10 K: What is necessary?
1:02:13 Q: Passion. You have to want to be able to see things clearly.
1:02:19 K: Any amount of wanting is not going to clear, because I want to clear, I want to be very clear, but I may not be clear. Right?
1:02:30 Q: Yes, but you are not going to give it up, just because...
1:02:31 K: So you keep on experimenting?
1:02:35 Q: No.
1:02:38 Q: There must be silence.
1:02:40 K: Go, find out sir. I am not capable of my judgment, incapable of seeing clearly, and so on.
1:02:52 Q: Begin with that at least, to notice something that is a fact inside, that I am not capable of judging accurately.
1:03:05 K: Would you say I mustn’t ever come to any conclusion?
1:03:12 Q: Perhaps.
1:03:14 K: Would you say what?
1:03:19 Q: Yes, sometimes I think that’s the best thing.
1:03:23 K: Ah, not ‘sometimes’.
1:03:25 Q: Can you do that?
1:03:26 K: Please, you want something ‘permanent’, don’t you? Permanent in quotes. Which won’t be changed the day after tomorrow.
1:03:42 Q: No, I don’t... Yes, yes.
1:03:47 K: You have changed your mind now?
1:03:49 Q: No, I want to know whether, if I see something whether that is true or not.
1:03:54 K: I said... we are going into that. I think my judgments have said, ‘This is true.’ Right? And later on it changes. Therefore I cannot rely on my judgment. Right?
1:04:16 Q: Yes.
1:04:17 K: Therefore what am I to do?
1:04:26 Q: Stop judging.
1:04:29 K: All right, but to stop judging, what is necessary. I can’t say that I will stop judgment – that sounds silly.
1:04:43 Q: You will have to see that you are confused. You just have to see that you are confused.
1:04:51 K: I have seen it.
1:04:52 Q: No.
1:04:53 K: I have said judgment.
1:04:54 Q: She has seen that she is confused. It doesn’t stop her being confused.
1:04:56 Q: Well if you see that, you will not go judging, will you?
1:04:57 K: What do you say? She doesn’t like to be challenged. What do you say? Come on. What is necessary so as to have a state of mind or brain that says, ‘My judgment is wrong, my values, I thought they were permanent but they have changed’? So, what does the brain say then? Doesn’t it ask what is the quality of a brain that is not judging? Am I making it difficult?
1:05:51 Q: No.
1:05:55 Q: It’s moving. The brain is moving.
1:06:04 K: No. If it is constantly moving, everything is changing. She wants... Sir, start with her question. She said that she wants to rely on something always. She thought her judgment was right and later on it changed. She says: how am I to discern, and the discernment must be true so that it doesn’t change all the time. That’s all her question.
1:06:57 Q: Perhaps the mistake would be to be investigating something and then say at the end that there is an end to the investigation.
1:07:10 K: Look old chap, just look, look. Do you see your judgment has no value?
1:07:18 Q: Well it has very little.
1:07:21 K: (Laughs) According to her, it changes, doesn’t it? So, you can never rely on your judgment completely. Right? Right? You can never say, ‘This is absolutely true and this is false,’ and so on. Now, after saying all that, what do you discover yourself?
1:07:57 Q: You change too. One changes too.
1:08:03 K: So, do you accept permanent change, constant change? Never at any time in your life something firm?
1:08:18 Q: It seems as if there has to be deeper perception rather than trying to make a judgement.
1:08:28 K: No, old chap, you are not listening to my question. You are trying to answer my question. Don’t answer my question. Listen to the question first, if I may most respectfully ask you. What is the quality, when you have examined that your judgments are always changing – what you thought was real one week, changes the next? Right? So, how do you… what do you discover that is necessary that will always be permanent so that your judgment will be always clear?
1:09:13 Q: But doesn’t that mean that you are just stuck in a judgment? If you say you want something to find out, that your judgment is always the same, permanent, doesn’t that mean that you are just stuck in an idea?
1:09:30 K: No.
1:09:31 Q: How do you know?
1:09:33 K: You are going off into an idea. I am not talking of ideas. I am talking… we are talking about jealousy. We took that and you agreed to that. It appears one week and you look at it and suddenly it disappears and comes up again next week. You want to find out how to end completely jealousy and be sure it ends. Right? That’s your question.
1:10:03 Q: Well, and then if you find out, how do you know that you are finding out?
1:10:09 K: We are going to find out, lady.
1:10:10 Q: But if you find out how can I know that I am just… that it is really something I have seen?
1:10:18 K: So you can never rely on yourself.
1:10:22 Q: Yes.
1:10:24 K: That’s all I am saying. So what will you do? Rely on somebody else’s judgment.
1:10:33 Q: No.
1:10:34 K: No. So what will you do?
1:10:38 Q: If you can’t rely on yourself, you can’t rely on anybody else.
1:10:44 K: So she can’t rely on herself.
1:10:45 Q: You can’t rely on anything.
1:10:47 K: She can’t rely on herself nor on anybody else.
1:10:53 Q: Then you have nothing to rely on.
1:10:57 K: So what will you do after that?
1:11:01 Q: There is no more relying.
1:11:04 Q: What will you do?
1:11:06 Q: That’s what I said.
1:11:07 K: Sir, you have seen that you cannot rely on yourself and also you see that you cannot rely on others. So, what?
1:11:16 Q: Well, there is no more searching for something to rely on.
1:11:22 K: She has abolished that. She has finished with it.
1:11:26 Q: Yes.
1:11:27 K: So, what else? That means what? Who will… She won’t… You understand? What is judgment then? How do you value? If you cannot rely on that person or on yourself, what does value mean?
1:11:51 Q: Nothing.
1:11:53 K: You go round and round in circles because you are… Forgive me for pointing out – I am asking: what is the state from which you will have a permanent judgment, permanent value, whatever it is? I am not going to tell you. So don’t rely on me. In discussing it will become clear. But if you don’t discuss how can it become clear?
1:12:29 Q: Are you asking how can one discover a state of clarity?
1:12:36 K: Yes. Same thing. So that you are always clear. Not one day clear and the next day not clear. It is a good question, very good question. Discuss with me.
1:13:00 Q: Well you have to observe very carefully all your reactions to see what is really true and what’s false.
1:13:10 K: She has said all that. Don’t go back to it.
1:13:15 Q: Sir? If on the one day you become clear – let’s say you become clear in the situation on the one day and then the next day it changes, it’s a different situation.
1:13:35 K: Same thing sir. One day I pursue that guru and suddenly changes, it’s wrong, and drop him and go off, do something else.
1:13:44 Q: No, that’s not what I am trying to say.
1:13:46 K: What?
1:13:47 Q: I am trying to say, each day, or through the day you have different situations in which you wish to be clear, so you take each situation as it comes, rather than…
1:14:04 K: Yes.
1:14:07 Q: If one takes each situation as it comes.
1:14:11 K: Not ‘if’. That’s a supposition. Remove the word ‘if’.
1:14:20 Q: Take it, take each situation as it comes and then you will be…
1:14:35 K: All right sir. May I give you an answer to that? I take today, the situation that arises, and I meet it completely. Right? And there is no problem. Next day another situation arises and I try to meet it. It creates lots of problems. Right? Right?
1:14:55 Q: That is our experience.
1:14:58 K: Yes sir, I know that.
1:15:02 Q: But I am not saying that if the next day when you meet it and you become confused – I am not saying that that is our experience, I am saying you can be always completely clear.
1:15:19 K: She wants to find that out.
1:15:22 Q: Yes, but you can do that just by… (inaudible)
1:15:27 Q: How do you know that your being clear is actually being clear or just something you say to yourself, that you are fooling yourself by saying that you are being clear? Maybe you are just stuck in your ideas, in your true judgment, what you think is true.
1:15:50 K: You are not discussing with me. Now, if you are… I can’t… I would like to help you but you won’t move from… Why can’t you discuss this point? You are able to discuss with me about comparison.
1:16:19 Q: Well…
1:16:22 K: Yes, yes. Now, why can’t you discuss this? I cannot rely on my judgment. Right? Sometimes I can, sometimes I can’t. Therefore I see that it is very dangerous to say that my judgment is correct. Right?
1:16:43 Q: Yes.
1:16:44 K: So, what? Then what? You can’t just stop there.
1:16:51 Q: No.
1:16:52 K: Then proceed.
1:16:54 Q: Well…
1:16:56 K: Don’t… (laughs)
1:16:58 Q: The thing is, this is a situation that I in fact find myself in.
1:17:03 K: Go on. Now, discuss with me.
1:17:05 Q: Now, what I actually do…
1:17:07 K: We will find out.
1:17:09 Q: No, I am not saying what is the right thing to do but what in fact happens.
1:17:14 K: Yes, I know. We are not talking of ‘right thing to do’ at all.
1:17:25 Q: You mean, what in fact happens.
1:17:27 K: One day I am very clear. Whatever I do, it goes through slowly without any erasing, any waves, no problems. Next day the same thing appears and everything is disturbed. It creates waves, problems, I am unhappy, all that. And the question is: can I be clear all the time? If you say to me it is impossible to be clear all the time, that I don’t know. Again you are making a statement without much investigation.
1:18:23 Q: I am not saying it is impossible, but how can I know that my clarity is true?
1:18:29 K: We are coming to that, lady. But you made that statement; you won’t move away from it, you won’t discuss about it.
1:18:34 Q: Well, I think the thing you have to do is that you drop immediately after you have seen it. As soon as you have seen something, that you forget it immediately again.
1:18:49 K: Really sir, that’s not an answer. You can’t forget it; it is there.
1:18:54 Q: Well, you would avoid it just as you would avoid a dangerous animal or some other danger.
1:19:05 K: So, you avoid any dangerous problems.
1:19:10 Q: Yes.
1:19:11 K: Ah?
1:19:12 Q: Yes, well…
1:19:14 K: Wait. Listen to what you have said. Avoid any dangerous problems.
1:19:21 Q: No, no. Avoid that which brings about confusion.
1:19:27 K: Which is the same thing.
1:19:29 Q: You don’t know how to deal with something so you don’t have anything to do with it?
1:19:33 Q: No.
1:19:34 K: I am asking you to discuss with me. You are making statements. I want to discuss something with you. I am just taking that up. May I? Move away from this for a moment? Do you feel suppressed here?
1:19:54 Q: Do you mean right now, or here at the school?
1:20:00 K: Not now, just at this minute, lady. Being at Brockwood do you feel people are oppressing you, suppressing you? Be honest, clear.
1:20:18 Q: Sometimes.
1:20:19 Q: Occasionally.
1:20:20 Q: Yes.
1:20:21 K: When? Or is there suppression all the time or only occasionally?
1:20:28 Q: Occasionally.
1:20:29 K: Is that so? Please, I am asking a question, all of you.
1:20:39 Q: I think it is all the time, but not necessarily from outside. It is not necessarily from staff, but also from myself.
1:20:49 K: I asked you from staff, from outside. Living at Brockwood, do you feel suppressed?
1:20:57 Q: Yes.
1:21:00 Q: Yes.
1:21:02 K: Yes? Right. What about?
1:21:09 Q: Rules.
1:21:11 K: Which rule? Don’t generalise rules.
1:21:14 Q: We have to be in our rooms at ten o’clock.
1:21:18 K: My dear chap, you are not suppressed when you want to lie down in bed till 11 and somebody says…
1:21:27 Q: I am suppressed when I want to go out. If I wished to go out I am suppressed by that rule.
1:21:33 K: Really? My dear chap you are not reducing suppression to that level are you?
1:21:39 Q: Well, I am afraid I am.
1:21:44 K: Oh, I see. All right. What is a rule? Why there are rules?
1:21:51 Q: A rule is something that ensures the efficient running of…
1:21:55 K: What?
1:21:56 Q: A rule is…
1:21:57 Q: No, that’s the ostensible purpose of a rule. What’s a rule?
1:22:04 Q: That’s what I am trying to define at the moment, if you don’t mind. (Laughter).
1:22:12 Q: I don’t mean to be rude, but when you say…
1:22:16 K: Are we going to… (inaudible) …against the other? (Laughter)
1:22:19 Q: Excuse me sir, this is quite a different question. It is very important one but possibly could we go back to it another time?
1:22:34 K: I am asking you sir, to discuss, or do you feel suppressed, you are not free here?
1:22:41 Q: Well…
1:22:42 K: Wait a minute – to do what you want to do.
1:22:45 Q: Well, I feel suppressed in singing or something, or if I feel jolly, to run around.
1:22:53 K: Just a minute. I asked you that. Don’t tell… Do you feel that your freedom is suppressed, restrained, controlled? And you can go away and in your holidays you are free to do what you like? Argue this out with me.
1:23:19 Q: Well, this is in answer to your question. I feel that there is…
1:23:25 K: I can’t hear you.
1:23:28 Q: I feel that there is a certain pressure which points, which tells you to, if you want to grow in Brockwood or if you want to understand yourself better, that you have to do it in a certain way, there is a certain path which is told to you, how to find out by yourself.
1:23:56 K: I didn’t understand.
1:23:57 Q: He says sir, there is a certain pressure that he feels, that if you want to grow in Brockwood and flower or whatever then you have to follow a certain way and a certain path.
1:24:13 K: Is that so? Is that so?
1:24:15 Q: That’s how I feel.
1:24:16 K: Let’s discuss it. Don’t make a statement.
1:24:18 Q: No, I’m not making...
1:24:20 K: Is that so?
1:24:23 Q: Sir, we were just talking about conclusions few moments ago. It may be the case that some people…
1:24:33 K: You, you, you. Don’t say ‘some people’.
1:24:37 Q: All right. I may tell someone to do something because I have got an idea or a conclusion of how that person should behave. Right? So it is very difficult to see when I am telling the other person to do something, because I am clear on that, or when I am telling that person to do that because I have got an idea how he should behave.
1:25:03 K: Is that suppression here? That your freedom is curtained? Your freedom is denied because you are in a prison? Would you kindly answer that question, discussion?
1:25:29 Q: We are not in a prison, are we? We are not in a prison.
1:25:36 K: Therefore you are free.
1:25:39 Q: No. (Laughter)
1:25:42 K: If you are not free then you are in prison.
1:25:49 Q: Are you being asked to do anything you didn’t agree to do?
1:25:55 K: Gosh, you people haven’t thought about all this, you just make statements. That means you want your way.
1:26:03 Q: No, well, in a way but… (laughter) Okay, listen.
1:26:06 K: That is all, sir.
1:26:08 Q: I think what causes the problems is that there is… you have somebody who tells you to do it in a certain way and you want to do it your way.
1:26:20 K: Yes, that is the same thing. Just a minute. You want to do something your way and somebody else tells you to do it that way.
1:26:30 Q: Yes.
1:26:31 K: Right? What will you do?
1:26:34 Q: You will try to talk with that person.
1:26:38 K: Yes. What will you do? If she says, ‘Sorry, I have to discuss with you. I agree with you that this should be…’ and so on. Now, what will you do?
1:26:48 Q: Well, you cannot rely on yourself and you cannot rely on the other person. What are you going to do?
1:26:56 K: Sir, just take any fact, look at it. You raised rules, just now.
1:27:00 Q: I didn’t.
1:27:01 K: That doesn’t matter. (Laughs) Rule. Why there are there rules in a community? In a small community like ours, why there are rules? We all agreed, for example, that you should be in bed at ten – or nine or eleven or whatever it is. For the convenience of all. And you want to say sorry, I want to go to bed at two o’clock.
1:27:33 Q: Well, I think the problem is for the convenience of all that you keep all your problems to yourself.
1:27:39 K: What?
1:27:40 Q: I think the problem is that, as you just said, we have the rule for the convenience of all. I am not talking about… And then you have those other rules, unspoken rules, that for the convenience of all you should, whatever emotion you have you should keep it in yourself and inquire into it in yourself and please don’t let it out.
1:28:03 K: Do you and I, community as a whole agree that we go to bed at ten o’clock? Suppose we agree. And you want to stay to two o’clock. Somebody comes along and says, ‘Please, we agreed to ten o’clock, why are you staying till two?’ Do you feel your feelings, your wanting being suppressed?
1:28:27 Q: No.
1:28:29 K: No.
1:28:30 Q: Unless the other person says, ‘I don’t want to talk about it, it is undiscussable.’
1:28:36 K: Oh no, no, no. No, just a minute. Just a minute. Nobody says, ‘What I say is law.’ Nobody says that, do they?
1:28:48 Q: Well…
1:28:50 K: I am asking you.
1:28:53 Q: Nobody says it but sometimes you just feel that.
1:28:58 K: Ah, wait – your feeling may be wrong.
1:29:00 Q: Yes.
1:29:01 Q: Sometimes may be right.
1:29:04 K: Therefore what will you do? We come back to the same point.
1:29:11 Q: Well, you see, then if you start to talk about it and you just feel that the other person is so stuck in his idea about how it should be...
1:29:20 K: I said, look, we all agree to ten o’clock.
1:29:23 Q: Yes.
1:29:25 K: We all agree lunch is at one o’clock.
1:29:27 Q: Yes.
1:29:28 K: We all agree that classes, this and that at a certain time. What are you being supressed about?
1:29:35 Q: But Krishnaji, I am afraid it’s not quite like that. For example, we don’t all agree that it is at ten o’clock.
1:29:43 K: Ah, that’s a different matter. Then let’s discuss it and settle it.
1:29:46 Q: Well, you see, I may be 21 or 22 and I want to go for a walk at eleven o’clock.
1:29:51 K: Yes.
1:29:52 Q: And if you tell me I should go to my room at ten o’clock...
1:29:57 K: Now, wait a minute. Wait, wait sir. So you are 21 and say, ‘I want to go for a walk.’ So what will you do if everybody says that? 21 or 20, 18, 19. Go on, answer. You are as much responsible as the head of the place here. Right?
1:30:23 Q: Well, I think you could try…
1:30:28 K: Realise that. This is your school as much as Brockwood’s school.
1:30:30 Q: Yes.
1:30:31 K: So you are as much responsible for what you are doing as… Right?
1:30:37 Q: Yes.
1:30:38 K: Are you? When you say, ‘Sorry, I am going for a walk at two o’clock in the morning,’ and if somebody says, ‘Please…’ And you say, ‘Very sorry, you are suppressing me.’ It sounds so idiotic. No?
1:30:58 Q: Well, it’s not like that, it’s when you feel that there is no communication, that you feel the other person is not willing to listen.
1:31:05 K: It may be your fault.
1:31:08 Q: Yes.
1:31:09 K: (Laughs) If you are as much responsible for this place as the person is responsible – says he is responsible – then your responsibility will act. But you say, ‘Well, sorry I am here only as a student, for god sake I want to express myself, I want to be free, I want to do this, and you come along and suppress me,’ then you are irresponsible. It is not that you are free or not free, it is you are irresponsible. Wait a minute, lady – I am a guest here.
1:31:44 Q: Yes.
1:31:45 K: Right? I am a guest. When I go to India with the all the places, I am a guest there. In America, I have made this very clear to Mrs Zimbalist. I stay in her house. I am a guest. So I behave like a guest. I don’t say, ‘Sorry, I like to smoke a cigarette at lunch time, in this house you don’t. I am going to do it because you suppressed my freedom.’ That means I am not a guest. As a guest I behave, which is, I am responsible for my behaviour living in that house where they don’t smoke, no drugs, vegetarian.
1:32:34 Q: Yes, all the practical things. Those are the practical things.
1:32:40 K: Wait a minute.
1:32:42 Q: Yes.
1:32:43 K: Even suppress things, you know, inward things. I want to go out for a walk. It’s a lovely moonlight, warm, and I want to go for a walk at two o’clock, eleven o’clock. I ask permission of my host. She says, ‘If you do go out, please lock the door. If anything happens to you when you are out I am not responsible.’ You understand?
1:33:15 Q: Yes.
1:33:16 K: If you behave as a guest then you are responsible.
1:33:20 Q: Yes, but what happens if you feel like singing?
1:33:25 K: You may disturb your neighbour. You are in a small place. If you are playing guitar at two o’clock…
1:33:35 Q: No, I mean during the day, normal situation.
1:33:37 K: No, please, don’t reduce to something so silly.
1:33:42 Q: But what she is saying, I think Krishnaji, is that in general she feels that she can’t express her emotions. If she feels like singing in the morning…
1:33:54 K: Sing, sing. Go outside. Look, I like to chant.
1:33:59 Q: Well, and then somebody comes…
1:34:00 K: Wait a minute lady. I like to chant.
1:34:02 Q: Yes.
1:34:04 K: In Sanskrit. So I am very careful that nobody hears me. I turn on the bath. (Laughter) Or I go outside.
1:34:18 Q: Yes, but maybe you are with other people and you still want to sing.
1:34:22 Q: No, you ask for permission. (Laughter)
1:34:26 K: You see, do you feel responsible for being here?
1:34:31 Q: Yes.
1:34:33 K: Therefore behave responsibly.
1:34:36 Q: Yes, but is behaving responsibly just conforming and being easy?
1:34:43 K: No. Do you know what the word ‘responsibility’ means? Not controlled. I am responsible to look after my bathroom – say for instance, an example. I wash the washtub, I wash the basin, I wash the toilet. I am responsible.
1:35:01 Q: Yes.
1:35:02 K: If I can’t do it at a certain time I do it another time but I am responsible for doing it. What?
1:35:13 Q: I wonder, you get a lot of people, a lot of guests come here, and a lot of people who had been outside for a while and they come into school and they say it is very dull atmosphere.
1:35:32 K: And somebody says marvellous atmosphere.
1:35:35 Q: Yes, but people also feel at the same moment as you have people saying this is a dull atmosphere…
1:35:42 K: Leave them alone, sir.
1:35:43 Q: No, but then you yourself feel that you cannot express yourself in the community and that you cannot express yourself…
1:35:53 K: Express what? Express what?
1:35:55 Q: Express the things you feel. And I am not talking about that you should hit somebody immediately as you feel like hitting – of course that is not right – but that you can show something of that.
1:36:05 K: What do you want to express, sir?
1:36:07 Q: I don’t know. How you feel.
1:36:10 K: You may feel angry, express it, kick somebody?
1:36:14 Q: That’s what I said, that you don’t do that.
1:36:16 K: Then what? I am asking you: what do you want to express, which is being prevented?
1:36:24 Q: No, maybe it is not expressing, maybe it is more that you communicate with somebody in a way that is different from how it is done usually.
1:36:42 K: Are you communicating with me now?
1:36:49 Q: I don’t know.
1:36:51 K: Please sir. Is that… I am asking you a question. You have not answered my question. Do you feel suppressed here?
1:36:56 Q: Sometimes, sir.
1:36:59 K: Sometimes. When?
1:37:01 Q: I feel I can’t express my opinions or my feelings about the place sometimes because this hurts people.
1:37:14 K: Therefore what will you do? Don’t express them. (Laughs)
1:37:18 Q: But people say we have to talk here. This is a place where I can talk with people freely. That is why I am here.
1:37:25 K: That’s right. If you are going to hurt me by what you are going to say...
1:37:29 Q: No, I will do it without hurting you.
1:37:31 K: You convey it to me very gently, very carefully and say, ‘Don’t be hurt, old boy, this is what is happening.’
1:37:42 Q: What if you still get hurt?
1:37:45 K: Then I am a damned fool. (Laughs) What are you making a story about, all this?
1:37:57 Q: No, no, I am not making any story.
1:38:05 Q: I think we are missing the point, that to express my opinions and someone gets hurt, then I can learn from that. We are not learning from what is happening.
1:38:15 K: That is my whole point, sir. You are not learning. You are making statements. So if you feel that you are suppressed here and when you leave on your holidays you are free to do what you like – do you know what is happening in the world? Everybody is doing what they want to do, doing their thing. Right? And creating havoc in the world.
1:38:58 Q: But isn’t this the place where we can learn to communicate about those things?
1:39:03 K: Communicate. I want you to communicate with me. I am not preventing you.
1:39:09 Q: No. Not you maybe, but other people.
1:39:13 K: Wait a minute! Do you want to communicate with others, with X, Y and Z? Are you – wait a minute, careful – are you in a state of communication? Are you? Do you know what that means?
1:40:02 Q: Does it mean to be together?
1:40:04 K: I said communication. I want to tell you something. Will you listen to me or you say, ‘Please, not now, I am thinking about something else.’
1:40:10 Q: No, if somebody wants to tell me something I will listen to it.
1:40:13 K: Yes. So, if I want to tell you something, you are open to what I want to tell you.
1:40:16 Q: Yes.
1:40:17 K: You won’t get hurt. I want to tell you a great many things. And you want to tell me a great many things. Right?
1:40:22 Q: Yes.
1:40:23 K: So we are in a state of communication.
1:40:25 Q: Yes.
1:40:26 K: Which means what?
1:40:27 Q: Each of us is listening to the other.
1:40:34 K: Yes. Not only listen to the other – that we are open, you know, sensitive to each other. Right?
1:40:44 Q: Yes.
1:40:46 K: Are you? Not with one or two – are you with this group? Are you sensitive, alert enough to say, ‘Well, you can talk to me. I am quite open. I am sensitive to listen to you. I have no blocks against you.’ I don’t say, ‘I don’t like you. I only listen to that person and not to you.’ Are we in a state of communication? You see, you don’t learn, you stop.
1:41:24 Q: It seems we don’t know, judging from the reaction.
1:41:29 K: Find out sir, learn about it.
1:41:31 Q: Well, how do you find out?
1:41:32 K: I am doing it for you.
1:41:34 Q: How are you doing it for us?
1:41:36 K: I said to you, are you sensitive to others?
1:41:40 Q: Well, I have to think about it.
1:41:43 K: Don’t think about it, do it now.
1:41:45 Q: Well that’s the way I am – I think.
1:41:47 Q: Well, sir, but sometimes if I talk with somebody and then I totally have his opinion, I can totally see his point. And then I talk with somebody who tells me the opposite and I can totally see his point. So maybe I am too open.
1:42:04 K: So, what does that indicate?
1:42:05 Q: Well I don’t know.
1:42:07 K: Wait, wait. Learn about it! Don’t say ‘don’t know’.
1:42:11 Q: Well, what I said, that I am confused.
1:42:14 K: No. Learn about it. I go to her. She has an opinion. And I come to him and he has an opinion, and so on. Right?
1:42:24 Q: Yes.
1:42:25 K: What do I learn from it?
1:42:26 Q: That we all have our own opinion?
1:42:35 K: What do I learn from this, going from opinion to opinion? What is the matter with you? You are not learning.
1:42:46 Q: Do we all have our own isolated thoughts?
1:42:50 K: I learn that opinions have no value.
1:42:55 Q: Yes.
1:42:59 K: That means I can’t have an opinion about either. Right? Right? If I can’t rely on your opinion I can’t rely on my own opinion.
1:43:14 Q: No.
1:43:15 K: Therefore I must be free of opinions.
1:43:16 Q: Yes.
1:43:17 K: Are you?
1:43:20 Q: No.
1:43:24 K: No. Which means what? Learn. That you are unwilling to let go opinions.
1:43:35 Q: Yes.
1:43:36 K: So let go.
1:43:37 Q: Well that’s easy to say, let go of your opinions.
1:43:42 K: Oh no, it is not easy. If you cannot rely on all these people’s opinions, how can I rely on my opinion?
1:43:56 Q: Okay, someone sees that opinions are useless, but the difficulty comes in the action, the letting go of the opinion.
1:44:09 K: Do you rely on anybody’s opinion?
1:44:13 Q: Well…
1:44:15 K: Opinion.
1:44:16 Q: Yes, I think I do.
1:44:19 K: Then why do you rely on them? Somebody else comes along and offers you a different opinion.
1:44:30 Q: Well...
1:44:32 K: So, you cannot rely on opinions, nor on your own opinion. Right? Get rid of them. That is the way to learn. You have no opinions. That is freedom. Not to stick to your opinion.
1:45:06 Q: Yes but can’t you therefore be too easily influenced by others?
1:45:13 K: Oh no. If you offer opinion, I have no opinion, I say, ‘Please, I don’t want opinions.’
1:45:21 Q: No but don’t you block communication then?
1:45:24 K: How can you? How do I stop communication? When you have an opinion and I haven’t got any, you are stopping it. I am not stopping it. (Pause) I have asked a simple question: are you being suppressed here? I don’t want opinions – fact. You want to express yourself and somebody says, ‘Sorry you cannot,’ and you feel suppressed, denied. So learn from it. What am I… what do I want to express? I want to sing. All right, sing, remembering that you are a guest here, who has greater responsibility. You understand what I am saying? So, I want to chant. I don’t want to disturb anybody else so I go outside into a wood and chant. I have done this. When you feel responsible you are in communication. If the other fellow is not responsible, how can you communicate with him?
1:47:23 Q: But don’t you therefore put pressure on yourself? That if you feel the urge to sing, for example, you think: ‘No I shouldn’t because I might disturb other people so I have to go outside.’
1:47:37 K: No. No. I live in a small community. My singing might disturb people. What is wrong with that? I am not suppressing.
1:47:49 Q: But sir, it’s a school and there’s young people, and can you expect…
1:47:56 K: I don’t expect anything.
1:47:58 Q: No. Can we expect that in a school where there are a lot of young people they are all going to take the time and trouble to go out…
1:48:09 K: I agree sir. So what happens? Help them to be responsible. Right? They have to be responsible when they grow up. Right? Why do you then teach mathematics, geography, history or chemistry or whatever it is? I don’t like mathematics but I accept it because that is necessary. You see, you are not… Well, sir?
1:48:53 Q: Well what is preventing us from investigating as you say? What is preventing us from investigating?
1:49:03 K: Because you are not observing, you are not going into it. You don’t learn.
1:49:10 Q: Well that is a result of the past.
1:49:14 K: Look, look, I said – for the moment, I said comparison is one of the factors of jealousy. Now, don’t compare from that moment. Learn. See what happens.
1:49:27 Q: But then I am saying don’t compare, and I just put it on me.
1:49:30 K: No, you see the truth. Lady, you haven’t understood. I said as long as you are comparing there must be jealousy. Right?
1:49:39 Q: Yes.
1:49:41 K: If you want to be jealous, all right be jealous. Nobody is stopping you.
1:49:48 Q: No.
1:49:49 K: But if you want to say, ‘Look, I want to learn about jealousy,’ I say all right, let me find out what it means not to compare. Learn about it. Live, watch, that you are comparing all the time.
1:50:05 Q: Yes.
1:50:08 K: So learn about it. See whether you can be free from comparison. Not say, ‘Yes, sometimes I compare. I am free.’ But you are not learning. Find out if you are comparing, that is the cause of jealousy, and whether it is possible to live a life without comparison. Find out. I am clever or you are…
1:50:48 Q: But when you find out, when you have found out, have you really found out or is it just…
1:50:54 K: Investigate that, whether it is an illusion whether it is something not real. Don’t say, ‘Well, how do I know?’ before you have done it. You are all too clever. You don’t say, ‘Well, I won’t compare. I will see what it means.’ Do you know how difficult it is? Have you ever done it? But we are trained to compare. Right? The whole school system is that, university, college. Getting a degree is comparison. And when you go to a museum, compare. And when you look at somebody who is taller, you compare. And somebody more beautiful, somebody more intelligent. So find out how to live a life without comparison. Learn. You can’t learn it from a book. Right? So you have to learn it by watching. And you say, ‘Well, that is too tiresome, it is too boring,’ so you go on comparing. Right? Please, this is not sermon, I am not compelling you, I am not forcing you to anything. I am just pointing out certain things.
1:52:27 Q: Yes. (Pause)
1:52:32 K: So when you don’t compare you are totally free from all that. Personally, I have never compared myself with anybody. I have no examples to compare, no ideals saying ‘I must be that’. So to live a life without comparison is a marvellous thing. I am not your example, for god sake.
1:53:28 Q: But if you are free of comparison then you are not still free of thinking, are you?
1:53:34 K: No, look, don’t go into the deeper thing of thinking. Before you learn the first step don’t jump to the tenth step. So are you telling me that you are not suppressed here? That’s good. They are not suppressed here. I am sorry to put you on the spot. Should we stop? We will continue this another time, but as I am going to be here the whole month of June we will go at it. Shall we? Learn. Not say, ‘I am suppressed,’ or ‘I am not free, I want to be free’ – learn.
1:54:55 Q: But how do we know that we are learning, instead of… Oh, I am sorry! (Laughter) How do we know that we are actually learning or just accepting some ideas of another person?
1:55:12 K: Wait, I will show you. You learn how to climb a mountain, don’t you?
1:55:17 Q: Yes.
1:55:18 K: When you reach the top you know that you have learnt a great deal, how to climb a rock. Right?
1:55:29 Q: Yes.
1:55:30 K: In the same way, learn about this. Going on saying, ‘I am jealous.’ Why? I don’t say I must be jealous – I want to know why. I am jealous because I compare or not compare. I want to learn, go into it. That means apply your own brain to find out. Not say, ‘I am jealous, I must not be jealous.’ That means nothing. Learn the history of jealousy. And you are the history of jealousy. That means learn about yourself. (Pause) What time is it?
1:56:29 Q: One twenty-five.
1:56:31 K: Two hours. I think we’d better stop. You are tired. Will you get up? May I get up?