Krishnamurti - Will Brockwood be a place where people come to listen to something very deep?

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR85DSG1.2 - Will Brockwood be a place where people come to listen to something very deep?
Brockwood Park, UK - 19 October 1985
Discussion with Small Group 1.2

0:17	Scott Forbes: Sir, we have the school here now at Brockwood Park and we are about to start a centre for adults to come here. What can we do to prepare the ground, in your terms, so that this is much more than just a school and much more than just some potty little kind of retreat?
0:48	K: If I may ask you, sir, why put that question to me? What would you do? – I’m not turning the tables on you, I’ll answer your question presently – You are the head of this with other helpers, what would you do here? What would all of you like here? Who are serious, who are going to stay, prepared to weather the storm – and there’ll be a storm – what would you all like to do here? Here is a place, rather beautiful, far from any big towns, clean air, beautiful countryside and so on – as one of the principal people here, what would you like to do? How will you prepare the ground and prepare for the future? You may not get so much money when K dies, in donations and all the rest of it. What will you all do? What would you like to do, deeply, and see what you want to do is carried out, gone into, ploughed, sowed and reaped?
2:31	SF: The central thing which brought all of us here was a tremendous interest in what you talk about, and the obvious fact that that is tremendously important given the nature of the world and the nature of the lives people live. So, anything that made that more possible or made it better to pursue, more immediate, more real.
3:04	K: I understand that. What will you do?
3:07	Mary Zimbalist: This applies very much to other places, too, obviously. Ojai and probably India. K: It applies to Ojai, it applies here, it applies to India.
3:18	MZ: The central need is for something vital going on in these places. What will you do, sir? You’re not answering my question.
3:27	SF: When you ask, what will you do… I can only tell you what we are doing now because that is what one would do, that is as large as one’s vision of this thing is.
3:42	K: No, I’m asking, sir, this place has to last, say, 100 years or more. What is the means and the end? Knowing the means is the end, the means are no different from the end – and leave intention, goal, that sounds rather trivial and platitudinous – what would you do? What would I do, if I was in your place, if I was running it here instead of trotting around the world? What would I do? I know what I would begin with.
4:45	SF: What is that, sir?
4:52	K: I would see that all the students, all the people here had confidence, not in themselves but confidence in each other, trust in each other, that sense of being together, doing something important. Take the students, and others who are working here, into your confidence, what you are trying to do, what I am trying to do, that all of us are doing or trying to do. Not the best – that’s nothing. I should think that would be the first step.
5:47	SF: You would try and bring everyone here into each other’s confidence.
5:53	K: No. I have confidence in you, you have confidence in me. Not to do certain functions. I may be a bookkeeper and you say, ‘I have confidence in you'.
6:07	SF: You’re talking about something else.
6:09	K: I’m not talking about function, not confidence in doing something, or you give me the responsibility to do that, you have confidence in me – I don’t mean that at all. I mean the feeling that we are all working together, not one is working for this – together we are trying to build a different way of living, a different kind of... – not values – different kind of brain. It sounds arrogant, but I don’t mean it in that sense. A brain that is not mediocre, not just science, biology, chemistry or physics and all that kind of stuff, or English Literature, but a different quality to the brain.
7:21	SF: Are you saying that this special kind of confidence will help bring about this brain? K: Perhaps, perhaps. We’ll talk about it. Let’s move, not just say, ‘Confidence…’
7:35	SF: This confidence may be the first thing...
7:38	K: Maybe, maybe. SF: Maybe.
7:43	K: Then I would see that there was a feeling of real affection here.
7:52	SF: Wouldn't that come automatically with this confidence?
7:55	K: Yes, but if I may suggest, don’t use the word 'automatically'.
8:01	SF: All right. Is it too mechanical?
8:03	K: No, I would see that they had affection and we had affection, asking each other, having affection, consideration, seeing how others are, seeing that they have good, clean clothes and all the rest of it, and caring for them. If I was here, I would care how they dressed, how they walked. Not tell them how to walk but give them a certain sense of correctness about things.
8:48	SF: This applies more to the school than it does to the adult centre.
8:52	K: Wait, we haven’t talked about the adult centre, yet.
8:55	SF: But the two places here at Brockwood are one.
8:59	K: I know, I’m coming to that. First, let’s deal with the school. And, in that confidence, a sense of protection, protecting each other, however grown-up we are, that I’m trying to… I’m saying, doing, acting something to protect you, to see that you don’t do anything wrong, anything crooked, anything mediocre and secretive, and all that kind of business. But also, I would see whether they slept properly, I would go into their sex problems, so that they feel this is their home. Because they are here, mostly, for nine months of the year. And that they are welcome here. SF: But not that they can just… Not their home in the sense they can do anything they want.
10:10	K: No, there are certain rules of community.
10:14	SF: Understood.
10:16	K: You can’t leave the hose or electricity on. It’s our home. We treat it as our home.
10:27	SF: And we all work closely and cooperatively, with confidence.
10:31	K: Also, if you say it’s our home, don’t take roots here.
10:39	SF: Yes. K: It’s my home – all right, I’m going to stay whether I’m good, bad, indifferent, mediocre, a little crazy – it’s my home.
10:49	SF: Some would have the attitude, if this is my home, then I can do anything I want with it. I can paint it green or tear it down or break the windows or burn it, because it’s mine.
10:59	K: No, you don’t. If you’re at home, the father, mother or the aunt or the grandmother says, ‘Go and put the fire out, bring that chair’.
11:09	SF: It’s home in the sense that one takes care of it.
11:14	K: And take care of each other. SF: It takes care of us, too.
11:18	K: Taking care of each other. SF: Quite so, sir.
11:21	MZ: How can we apply an adult variation of the same care and concern? K: Wait, I’m coming – let’s finish.
11:28	MZ: Because I think that is what we really want to talk about.
11:31	K: I know. Let’s finish the school, first. And you have the academic side – I can’t enter into that. Also, I would see that there is as little conflict as possible between us grown-up people and the students, so that there is a quality to this place – not just school, school, come and go, exams, no exams, ‘A’ Level, ‘O’ Level.
12:03	SF: A quality of what, sir? K: A quality of... if you will forgive my using the word, something sacred, something holy. Not the holiness of churches, temples, and mosques – that is not holy. A sense of freedom, love and all the rest of it – what K has been talking about for the last 60, 70 years. That’s the school. Right? I would go into it, talk to them every day about all this. They might get bored, but all right, pick it up. Go away and come back tomorrow. I’m going to see that this is so.
12:51	SF: Perhaps you want to talk now about the adult centre – but I want come back at some point and talk about this sense of the sacred here because it seems that requires more than affection and feeling at home.
13:09	K: Of course, of course. SF: It’s something much more.
13:11	K: Sir, that demands that there are some people here who have investigated into themselves, know their inward activities, are aware of it, their habits, their way of thinking, get to know themselves and a certain quality of freedom. You know all about that, what K has said. And a place where you’re quiet. You can’t be quiet all day, but a place where you go and sit quietly, not anything to look at or anything, just be quiet. I would invite all that. That which is sacred cannot be... you can't just say, ‘I want that.’ You have to invite it.
14:26	SF: Would you say something a little bit more about that, sir? We’re talking now about preparing the ground, so that it can be invited.
14:37	K: All right, if you want to use that word 'prepare'. I wouldn’t use that word. You’re not preparing the ground for somebody to sow the seeds. The ploughing, the sowing, maturing of the seed, you’re doing it all. That’s correct. It’s not you prepare the ground and somebody comes and plants seeds or trees. You are doing this all the time, not just one day and forget it. It’s a constant awareness, attention, and feeling that you are entering into something that requires all your care, attention and love, and all that. This demands a great deal of intelligence, not just say, ‘Well, we’re all working together’. Come back to it later, sir. The adult centre. When will you have the building ready for people to come?
16:12	SF: We hope it will be ready by July of 1987.
16:19	K: That’s a year after.
16:21	SF: Yes. Not this coming summer but for the talks of 1987.
16:26	K: That’s more or less a year and a half away. How many rooms are you going to have there?
16:32	SF: Twenty.
16:34	K: Library, dining room, kitchen, garden and so on.
16:39	SF: Sitting room, everything – yes. Sir, we will have everything so that people will feel comfortable, but that’s still not that other… K: Just a minute. What kind of people would come here, first? Second, how long will they stay in a place like this? I might come and say, ‘My God, what a marvellous place this is and I’m going to stay here, go outside and smoke, eat meat, come back here and use this as a nice little hotel’. SF: That’s not what it is for.
17:25	K: That’s why I’m asking, what kind of people are you or the committee round you, or you as part of the committee, what kind of people do you want here?
17:44	SF: Sir, in our discussions we have said that this will be for people who are really serious. By that, one has meant people who are truly interested in going into themselves, in studying the teachings.
18:09	K: When I come, you don’t know me. SF: Correct.
18:13	K: I say, ‘I'm very serious, I've read, and I would like to come’. You don’t know me at all. You weigh me up, consider how I dress, how I look, whether I’m a little… SF: It’s an impossible task.
18:29	K: Impossible task. SF: Yes.
18:32	K: A little drunk, a little crazy, a little cuckoo.
18:38	SF: Neurotic – yes. K: How will you find out? I come from…I’ve read about it in some paper or magazine or you have put something out, and I say, ‘This sounds awfully good’. And I’m approaching 80 or 60. How will you find out? You, as part of the committee, how will you find this out? Sir, this has been one of the most difficult things. Because some old people – I mean oldish in the sense not only physically but also in the brain – they would like to come here. Probably, they have visited, passed the place, and it’s very quiet, nicely built.
19:36	SF: And it corresponds to their romantic notions.
19:39	K: And they say, ‘Come on, let’s go there’. And you don’t know me. How are you going to find out? Would you give me a chance? Not a chance. Would you say, ‘Come here for two or three days’? You see what it means?
20:00	MZ: Sir, I think it’s difficult to spell out or make a recipe for this. As with students, you have to try to find out all you can about them.
20:09	K: So, you have to enquire into their past.
20:12	MZ: Not with grown-up people. K: Wait, Maria, please, just a minute. Enquire what they do, why they come, how long they will stay. Therefore, you have to make some kind of rule or some kind of statement, they can’t stay here permanently.
20:36	MZ: Also, the decision on how long they stay has to be made by those who are responsible for the place. Otherwise, people will argue. K: So, how will you judge them?
20:52	SF: Sir, it's an impossible task, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done or it shouldn’t be done. MZ: It has to be done.
21:02	K: I refuse to say it’s an impossible task.
21:07	SF: May I say this, then? One meets people all the time who are interested in Brockwood. One is obliged all the time to get to know a person, to find out about them, just to have contact with them, and from that one must say, ‘Please come’ or, ‘Don’t come’.
21:32	K: That’s my point, sir. I’m asking you.
21:34	SF: It comes out of a relationship.
21:37	K: All right – you do that. How long will they stay here?
21:42	MZ: Again, we mustn’t spell out how long.
21:45	K: All right, cut out all that. What’s the place intended for? What do you want there? You’ve made all the physical arrangements, who comes, how long they will stay, somebody very serious might stay for a month. Leave all that aside. You can arrange all that.
22:07	SF: If I may answer your question using one of your words, which I’m afraid you’ll object to. The place is really for people to have some contact with the sacred.
22:22	K: Yes. So what is the place for? SF: For that, sir.
22:27	K: Apart from tapes, television, all that stuff, what is it you all want there? This is serious because K might die any time and you’ll be left with that. Let me finish what I want to say. You’ll be left with Brockwood, which will become international, as long as he lives. You’ll be left with that study, with that excellent building, and all the beauty of the land. What is it for? One of the students asked me, ‘Why are you building that?’ I said for people to come. Not pass examinations and all that kind of stuff, older people, younger or older depending on how they look, how they walk, how they talk, seeing that they’re fairly sane. And so on. What is it you want out of that? You’ve got the place here, Brockwood. You don’t have to pay any rent for this place. You own it, or the Foundation and you all own it. Now you are going to have that building over there. If it’s left to all of you, including the Foundation, what do you want there? Don’t answer me yet, listen to what I have to say, first. Selling books, tapes, videos, and talking, sitting quietly – what is it you want there? You and your group, which means the Foundation. This is going to be more and more international. Some old man or some young girl, a little bit woozy or romantic says, ‘I’ve nothing to do, I’ll go and stay at Brockwood’. What is it collectively, and each one, wants to create from here?
25:07	MZ: Sir, when you are not physically here at Brockwood, for whatever reason. K: A simple reason, old age.
25:16	MZ: If we can say that there is a place which to the best of one’s ability... K: Don't use 'best' – what is it?
25:27	MZ: We want to create a substitute for your presence, which cannot be done. But what can be done is the record of what you have said these years.
25:37	K: There is no substitution.
25:38	MZ: That is the only substitute that will be there eventually, Krishnaji.
25:42	K: No, if I may request, don’t use that word 'substitute'. Don’t use that word. Tell me, without using that word, what is it? I’m asking you both. SF: Yes, I can answer that, but I’m afraid I don’t have any other word for it. The thing which has brought people to Brockwood, from all over the world and keeps them working here despite often tremendous obstacles, is a value for something they would call or sense as the sacred, something touched by you. K: Yes, I understand all that. Forgive me, you are not answering my question.
26:33	SF: Which question, sir? K: I’ll repeat the question, what is it all of you, including the Foundation... SF: Want here?
26:46	K: …can have here? Don’t theorise. Wait, sir, just listen. Don’t theorise, or speculate. Say, ‘This is what we want and we are going to work for it, we are going to create it, do something about it’. Not just say, ‘Well…’
27:09	SF: I understand. But, sir, I feel I have answered that, perhaps in an inadequate way. K: No, you haven’t answered me. What are you all going to do with these two places? Apart from the school and so-called The Centre, what is it you all want? Not just a fanciful want.
27:38	SF: No, of course not. K: Or romantic. That is completely 'human', not in the sense neurotic, English, British, French, all that, but deeply human.
27:59	SF: What do you mean, sir? K: Wait, I’m going into it. Apparently, we have existed on this earth for the last two million years, or less or more, at the end of that long journey here we are, battling, killing each other, English, French, divided, divided, divided, a perpetual conflict, adjustment, chicanery, saying something which you don’t mean. We are going on like that – wars, killing and so on. When you look at all that, feel it, your heart in it, what is it you want? There are universities in England, giving ‘A’ Level, 'O' Level, BA, MA, PhDs and – what for? And you read in the papers the decline of Britain, economically, all the rest of it. Probably she’s poorer than Italy – they are saying that, now – and the whole thing may collapse. You understand? SF: Yes.
29:25	K: There might be a revolution, they’ll strip you of all this.
29:29	SF: Obviously, the world is in chaos. K: No, just think it out, please. What is it collectively, individually, as a human being, you want to create here? Don’t answer me, if you’re not clear.
29:45	MZ: Krishnaji, don’t we want to answer in some degree the very thing that brings people to listen to you? People see all the horrors you’ve just described, and probably more horrors to come, and they come to you, to find something else. Is this all there is to life?
30:06	K: To find an answer to all these terrible things that are going on, to find an answer to their own problems…
30:15	MZ: More than that. K: I’m coming to that, Maria – why don’t you have patience? They come here to find out something beyond their own little backyard. They want to find something really worthwhile in life – something deep, something sacred. Wait, sir. They have been caught in this stupid religion, which has no meaning, and they say, ‘For God’s sake, what is all this about? Why are we on this earth? What does it mean?’ You follow? ‘Apparently, there is a man at Brockwood who talks about all this. I would like to go and hear him. He may be a cantankerous, stupid, old man, but from what I have heard my friends talk about it, or from something I have read, I’d like to go and listen to him.’ So, I make the journey, come here and listen – if I can listen. So, will Brockwood be that place where people come, from all over the world, to listen to something here? You understand what I mean by 'listen'? Not just the wind in the leaves but to listen to something very deep, to something that makes their own life change, dissolves their problems, and so on, so on. Do you want such a place? Will you create such a place, put your shoulders to the plough and create it, not just invent it, create such a place?
32:37	SF: Clearly, sir, that is what one sees as necessary.
32:42	K: Will you do it?
32:44	SF: Sir, the question that one began with was partly, how does that come about? What brings that about? K: Sir, there is no ‘how’.
32:57	SF: But if you say, ‘Will you do it?’
32:59	K: Sir, you are not listening to what I'm saying – forgive me. It’s in your hands. It’s in your hands, all of you. You have the money to build that place, apparently, and Brockwood is beginning to be known internationally – which is an absurdity, that word 'internationally' – it’s beginning to be known in certain parts of the world, and so on. Will you bring this about? That’s all I’m asking. Don’t say, ‘To the best of our…’ – that’s nothing, everybody says that.
33:52	MZ: What does it mean for us to say, ‘Yes, we will bring it about?’ There’s no answer. K: Yes, there is an answer. Do you want such a place? MZ: Yes.
34:01	K: Will you create it? Like a baby, you create. A pleasure – it may be sensory pleasure or sexual pleasure – but you work at it.
34:16	SF: Sir, one is trying to ask you a question in this area...
34:21	K: You can’t ask, sir. Don’t try. I am asking you, Scott Forbes, living in this place and helping to build that centre, will you, with the help of others, and they, with your help, bring this about?
34:46	SF: Sir, what answer is there to that? K: There’s no answer. But there is an answer that demands all your attention... You see, sir, this is something you can’t just play with. You can’t say, ‘I’ll work for it’. You can't work for it. It is you, as Scott Forbes and Ray McCoy and so on, all of you here, and this place… Create it!
35:27	MZ: Krishnaji, this began with a remark that you made in Saanen several years ago at lunch. You said then, ‘We’ve done a great deal for young people. We must do something for adult people. We should have a centre where they can come’, etc. Now, this was in your mind. Obviously, Scott and everyone else here at Brockwood, or any other centre that may exist around the world in your name, wants to do this. But we want to ask the question of you today. The question will be in front of us, forever, but can we not turn that question to you, because you are the one who generated this to begin with, and it’s your answer that people are interested in.
36:19	K: You have listened. MZ: Yes. You have read – tape, television, all the business of it. I’m not being personal. What does it all mean to you? Don’t say, ‘Something enormous’, what does it actually, in daily life, mean to you?
36:58	MZ: You’re turning the question back to us.
37:01	K: Naturally, naturally. Don’t ask me. I am asking you, because I'm gone.
37:12	MZ: But because you say, ‘I’m gone’, we want to know what you think.
37:16	K: Gone in the sense, I’ll perhaps live a few years longer, or a few days longer, that’s irrelevant. I am saying, your grandfather has left you a piece of land, house and everything on it, and said, ‘It’s in your hands’. Wait, sir, careful, don’t just react. It’s in your hands. ‘I worked for it, I’ve spent years and years on this, and I’m going.’ He says to his sons or daughters, ‘Please’. If you say, ‘We're going to do the best, or follow your line’, then you’re off. It’s in your hands.
38:27	SF: Sir, one feels that and that’s where this question comes from.
38:32	K: No, please, it’s in your hands.
38:37	MZ: It is yours to begin with, Krishnaji. You are still here. This belongs to you, primarily. K: I know. But K is saying, ‘It’s all right, I’ll come and go, I’ll work, I'll talk, and I’ll carry on’. Carry on, in the sense, I'd like to...people who will listen, change, create something, all the rest of it – here, India and California. And he says, after, ‘My throat is giving out. I can’t talk. Shut the door’. I’m sorry, I’m not going to leave this. He has said everything he possibly can say. He can put the same thing in different words, or something totally new might come. He has spread the whole thing out, all the treasure in front of you. If you can call it treasure. It may be sheer nonsense, but it may be true, it may be false. And he says, ‘Now, you have come, and please, don’t answer this question. You can’t answer it’. But it’s in your hands, it’s in your… you’re treading on the land.
40:25	SF: There is a tremendous awareness that one cannot answer this question. At the same time, this question is extremely pressing. This question is being asked. K: Go on, won’t you? That’s not good enough for me. SF: It’s not good enough for me either which is why we are asking you. K: So, go on.
40:51	MZ: Krishnaji, the answer doesn’t come from us in words. It will come in what is done, whatever action takes place. But you had something in mind when this began. Can you not tell us what you had in mind?
41:11	K: Yes, I can tell you exactly. The tapes, television, the books – all that is a very small affair. I’m not belittling the work. Please, I’m not doing that. I look at it, the Foundations and all the people. Who is… radically? He talks eternally about psychological revolution. In whom is it happening? Therefore, he says, ‘Please, up to you’. Like a cook who made a good meal, he says, ‘It’s in front of you’. Don’t say, ‘Why did you cook it?’ ‘Why did you do this?’ – it’s there.
42:24	SF: You’re saying that the partaking of this meal that’s been cooked then is what there is to do. K: Yes, sir. Will you digest it? Will you eat it? Will you feel the richness of it, the goodness of it, and flowering in that goodness? All that’s implied.
42:45	MZ: But that is about each one of your listeners, Krishnaji. We’re talking about what you want to happen and be done in the Centre.
42:55	K: I told you a dozen times. MZ: I don’t mean with all of us. I mean, what do we try to provide for people who will come?
43:07	K: Look, you are providing them with rooms and all the rest of it.
43:11	MZ: Beyond that, what? K: I’m beginning with that. It should be a religious centre. MZ: Yes.
43:26	K: A centre people feel that is not cooked-up, not imaginative, not some kind of holy atmosphere, but a religious centre, not in the orthodox sense of that word, a centre where a flame is living, not the ashes of it. A flame is alive. If you come to that house, you might light that flame within you, or you might light your candle, or you might be the most extraordinary human being. In the sense, not scientifically, as a human being mature, not broken-up inwardly and all the rest of it, a person who is really whole, has no shadow of sorrow, pain and all that kind of thing. So that, to me, is a religious centre. Apparently, it hasn’t happened. Right? It has not happened, so far. I’m not belittling the work or people. Please, I’m not doing anything of that kind.
45:18	SF: It’s a recognition that it hasn’t happened that has created this question. K: Yes. It hasn’t happened, either in India or… so on. And I say, ‘What are we all doing?’ And if and when – not if – when you and the people living here feel the immense importance of it and bring it about, by your lives, by one’s speech, all the rest of it, the feeling of it, the living of it…
46:11	SF: Are you saying, sir, that a group of people here, that are partaking of this meal that’s been prepared…
46:21	K: Not only partaking – they are the meal.
46:24	SF: When that happens, then everything else is there.
46:30	K: If the fire is there, people will come. Where there’s nectar, bees go to it. Nectar says, ‘I exist, come, partake of it’. Nectar is there. K would like this to happen. And it may not. There is no guarantee to it. It may be right that way, too. Which doesn’t mean one is depressed or disappointed – all that is too immature. The soil may not be good enough to grow marvellous roses.
47:35	SF: But you have, in your terms, said that you can prepare the soil, you can work the soil. K: We are doing it, now.
47:45	SF: We are doing it now – yes. K: Yes, sir. We are doing it now. You see, sir, for 80 years, or perhaps 70 years, there are these places in India, marvellous places, three hundred acres, or more or less. And what were we all doing? Selling books.
48:39	SF: There is a sense of the travesty of not doing something.
48:43	K: Don’t talk about it. It doesn’t mean one is disappointed, depressed, or hopeless. K doesn’t feel any of that. If he did, he would disappear, completely. He doesn’t feel it. He’ll go on till he dies. But I think it’s important that we understand this, that’s all. Sir, I was talking to someone the other day from India. To them, structure is very important. It’s all-important. Structure being organisation, rules and the boss on top of it and so on. Structure has become tremendously important. I was talking to him and he kept on repeating, ‘Structure is important’. I said, ‘All right, but what is the structure for?’ I was thinking afterwards, giving such tremendous emphasis to structure and organisation. Does structure exist by itself? It’s for something, structure. Right? SF: Yes, clearly, sir.
50:39	K: What you put inside the structure or outside the structure.
50:43	SF: And that thing has been lost and the structure has remained.
50:48	K: So, I’m saying, be aware of all this.
50:54	SF: You have often said, don’t get taken over by the structure and by organisation. There is a sense that that could destroy whatever else there may be.
51:11	K: It has, sir. SF: Yes, sir.
51:14	K: When structure becomes important, which is spreading, spreading...
51:21	SF: Yes, of course, sir.
51:22	MZ: Krishnaji, you describe it as structure, an outward thing. The only reason for structure in the beginning is to... support your teachings, spread those teachings.
51:35	K: No, therefore don’t emphasis the structure. Don’t give all your thoughts to organisation.
51:45	SF: There’s a peculiar thing which happens – it's a whole other topic – but there is a peculiar thing which happens because of our conditioning. We see something, we begin to build a structure because a certain structure is necessary. You couldn’t have a school without a building.
52:06	SF: But somehow in our thinking… K: Some kind of building.
52:10	SF: Somehow in our thinking, gradually, the structure becomes more important than anything else, and the very essence that brought us, is forgotten. This has happened in organisation after organisation.
52:26	MZ: It preoccupies your attention, your time.
52:30	K: I know, sir, I know this.
52:33	SF: It’s a kind of tremendous corruption.
52:36	K: All this is involved in that, sir.
52:39	SF: How does one even… Looking at this...
52:43	K: Sir, I say, 'Watch out, careful'. You have to have organisation. After all, this building is based on all that. You have to have structure, and what you are building is more important than the structure. An architect may be the greatest architect in the world, gives you the plans, or you build it and forget what it’s meant for. SF: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
53:21	K: That’s why, sir, in 1929, he said all this.
53:27	SF: Yes, sir.
53:30	K: 'Dissolve the organisation, the Star, all the rest of it'. We did.
53:41	SF: But, sir, we can no longer afford for that to happen. In the year 2029, he won’t be here to say, ‘Dissolve the Order’. So, it must never happen. K: Therefore, he is saying to you, everything is in the hands of you people, here.
54:04	MZ: Krishnaji, you have also said that nobody speaks for you.
54:08	K: Of course, of course. MZ: Nobody has any...
54:11	K: …authority, representative. MZ: ...spiritual status of any kind.
54:15	K: That is, no intermediary between...don't bother.
54:19	MZ: In a sense, it seems that we are the servants – and I use that word very intentionally – to see that other people who haven’t had the good fortune to be close to you, to be around you, have access as much as is possible to everything that you have said. We’re not the ones to hand this out. We are to make it available to other people, and obviously we should reflect an understanding.
54:58	K: Maria, you are repeating the same thing in different words.
55:01	MZ: But isn't that important, that we have the responsibility?
55:06	K: It’s in your hands. You don’t even say 'responsibility' – it is there.
55:11	MZ: It’s in our hands to make what you have said as widely available as possible. K: Whatever you want to make of it.
55:21	MZ: Not whatever we want to make of it.
55:23	K: You are going to do it anyhow. MZ: No, sir. It’s not what we want.
55:28	K: Maria, don’t tell me all this, if you don’t mind. It all ends up this way. There is that… I have watched organisations grow, both religious and psychiatrists, all the rest of it, the whole thing. And at the end of it what is there? A dead tree.
56:01	MZ: No! K: Wait, sir, you are not...
56:05	MZ: Then why are we doing all this if you think it’s dead when you are gone? It’s not dead. K: Please, you haven’t followed. I have seen – you have not listened – I've said I've seen organisations flourish, plenty of money, all the beastliness of it, and some rascal comes along and it’s gone. I’m only saying watch out, don’t let this happen.
56:43	SF: Of course not, sir. MZ: Of course.
56:47	K: Apparently, that’s one of the most difficult things. You see, sir, it’s slightly taking place already.
57:10	SF: In what way, sir? K: You can see it for yourself. It’s no good my telling you what way, it is slowly taking on that colour.
57:25	SF: Here at Brockwood, sir? K: No, no, I'm not saying that. Don’t specialise. Don’t say, 'Brockwood, India'...
57:35	SF: If it’s in my hands, I have to specialise…
57:38	K: Be careful. The man is watching out there and says, 'Be careful'.
57:46	MZ: Krishnaji, if this is happening anywhere, it is total betrayal.
57:53	K: It’s for you people to break it up. Time? SF: Yes.
58:11	K: A quarter to one. SF: Yes, sir.
58:32	K: As you know, in that book which I was reading recently, one of the popes wanted to reduce the church to poor, not wealth, wealth and money, money, money. They got rid of him. And that may be slowly going on.
59:01	SF: Sir, at the same time, I am obliged to go out and try to find money for different things.
59:11	K: You need money, unfortunately.
59:13	SF: We need to have some money for different things, but we mustn’t let it somehow become...
59:18	K: Therefore, the money will come or attract... if there is honey, if there is fire.
59:30	SF: May I say that money comes to a lot of things, which are nothing but corrupt. K: I know, sir. I know. You see the yogis...
59:44	SF: Yes, in fact, it seems the best way of making money.
59:58	K: Sir, also, one other thing which I would like to point out. There are three Foundations now. Ojai, here and India. Distance separates them, legally, geographically. And K has always said, 'It’s one body'.
1:00:37	SF: Yes, sir.
1:00:41	K: You have heard him say it. He says, sorry, we’re not going to break up – India, here – it is one thing. Patriotism or a feeling that we are this and not that.
1:01:01	SF: Yes, sir.
1:01:05	K: I’m just saying this. That’s slowly taking place.
1:01:14	SF: That kind of breaking up is part of the corruption...
1:01:18	K: It is part of everything. Partly belongs to the political world, divisive and... SF: Yes.
1:01:30	K: While K is living, he wants to alter all that. We are one body. SF: Absolutely.
1:01:41	MZ: Krishnaji, this is felt profoundly by many of us.
1:01:48	K: But it’s taking place under your nose.
1:01:52	SF: Without being insolent, sir, it’s also taking place while you are still here.
1:01:59	K: I know that very well. I am going to try – not try – I’ll do something to stop it. Leave it – I’m only mentioning it for you who are here working, to see that this is held together, not, ‘Well, it’s too far, who cares?’.
1:02:32	SF: Sir, may I ask a small question before we run out of time, completely? Because this has to do with all of the information centres, all of the foreign committees all over the world, which are part of all of this, because they are also structure, they’re organisations. At the same time they should be...
1:02:57	K: …a centralised, not centralised. They should be not just each – what? – each centre or committee do what they like to do, start schools in the name of K, buy houses in the name of…etc. I think that’s totally unnecessary. Think of it, every country, every... – no, that’s totally unnecessary.
1:03:35	SF: Should there be a oneness with all those foreign committees, like you were saying between the Foundations?
1:03:40	K: I should invite them, talk to them, tell them this, that they’re not representing their country.
1:03:48	SF: They’re not separate entities – that we are all...
1:03:51	K: Yes, sir, you work for it, you create. I'm saying this. I think we’d better stop, it’s ten to one.