Krishnamurti Subtitles

The relationship of freedom to self-interest

Brockwood Park - 31 August 1985

Public Talk 3



1:03 Krishnamurti:
Those people have appealed
  
1:08 for co-operation
 
1:14 and for money
 
1:16 and also may the speaker
join in that appeal.
  
1:22 I appeal to you
to talk over things together.
  
1:34 We have talked about time,
thought and fear.
  
1:54 And as we said,
this is not a lecture
  
1:58 about a particular subject
 
2:01 intended to inform or instruct.
 
2:09 This is a conversation
between you and the speaker.
  
2:15 Together we are going
to look at all the things
  
2:23 that we consider are important
in our life,
  
2:30 our daily life,
 
2:33 not only our life as a businessman,
or a doctor, or a professor,
  
2:40 or a scientist, and so on,
 
2:43 or if you want to belong
to that group, gurus.
  
2:49 We are not concerned
about others
  
2:55 but rather we are going
to have a conversation
  
3:03 in which there is no authority,
 
3:07 in which there is no specialist.
 
3:11 We are all laymen.
 
3:15 And together we are
going to talk over
  
3:18 what we have done in the past
two talks and questions and answers,
  
3:25 and also we are going
to talk over this morning
  
3:30 – which is rather rainy and windy,
I am sorry,
  
3:34 it was a lovely day yesterday –
 
3:38 and we are going
to talk over together
  
3:42 about freedom,
 
3:48 self-interest,
 
3:53 pleasure, pain,
 
3:57 sorrow and love,
this morning.
  
4:04 And if there is time,
 
4:06 we will also talk about death,
 
4:13 if that is all right with you.
 
4:22 As we said previously,
 
4:26 we are a rather serious group,
 
4:29 at least the speaker is.
 
4:33 He has been at it for the last
seventy years and more.
  
4:42 And just attending a couple of talks
or reading some printed words
  
4:49 is not going to solve our problems,
 
4:55 it is not going to help us.
 
4:59 And the speaker is not
trying to help you.
  
5:04 Please be convinced of that,
 
5:06 assured that the speaker
is no authority
  
5:11 and therefore he is not a person
to whom you can turn to be helped.
  
5:21 There are others
who might help you.
  
5:27 And if you want to be helped,
 
5:29 then, if one may point out
most respectfully,
  
5:37 you leave your problems
to be solved to others,
  
5:41 and they will solve them
 
5:42 according to their desires,
self-interest, their power,
  
5:46 their position,
and all that business.
  
5:51 So we are ordinary laymen
talking over together.
  
6:03 We are going to enquire together,
 
6:07 face the facts,
 
6:09 not the ideas about the fact
but facts.
  
6:15 And not ideologies,
they are meaningless.
  
6:22 Not about theories, speculations
 
6:28 – who is illumined, who is not,
 
6:31 who is what? –
 
6:34 nearer God than you,
 
6:39 but together we are going to go
into this question of freedom,
  
6:48 what relationship
has freedom to time
  
6:54 and time to thought and action.
 
7:01 Because we live by action,
everything we do is action,
  
7:07 not a particular action,
 
7:11 either in the business world
or in the scientific world,
  
7:15 or in the speculative world
called philosophy.
  
7:20 But rather we are going
to look at things as they are.
  
7:28 There is a great deal of anarchy
in the world,
  
7:34 chaos,
 
7:36 disorder,
 
7:41 and who has brought this about?
 
7:47 This is our first question.
 
7:51 Who is responsible for all the mess
that we have in the world,
  
7:57 economically, socially,
politically, and so on,
  
8:02 all leading up to war?
 
8:07 There are wars going on,
terrible wars, now.
  
8:20 And do we each one of us realise,
 
8:23 not intellectually but actually,
 
8:27 in our daily life,
the house in which we live,
  
8:32 not only the house
built by man outside,
  
8:40 but the house inside.
 
8:44 Do we realise how disorderly it is,
 
8:50 contradictory,
 
8:53 how very little freedom
we have?
  
8:59 That word ‘freedom’
also implies love,
  
9:08 not just freedom
to do what you like,
  
9:11 when you like, where you like.
 
9:18 But we are living on this earth,
all of us,
  
9:24 and each one is seeking
his own freedom, his own expression,
  
9:30 his own fulfilment,
 
9:33 his own path to enlightenment,
whatever that be.
  
9:39 His own particular form of religion,
 
9:43 superstition, belief, faith,
 
9:48 and all the things that go with it,
with authority,
  
9:51 hierarchical authority
 
9:55 – politically, religiously,
and so on.
  
9:59 So we have very little freedom.
 
10:07 And that word,
 
10:09 which is so freely used
by every psychopath
  
10:16 and every human being,
 
10:18 whether he lives in Russia,
where the tyranny is appalling,
  
10:24 or in so-called democratic world,
 
10:28 every human being inwardly,
consciously or unconsciously,
  
10:36 needs freedom,
 
10:39 like every tree in the world
needs freedom to grow,
  
10:46 to have that sense of quality
of dignity, love.
  
11:02 And what is the relationship
of freedom to self-interest?
  
11:10 Please, we’re talking
things over together,
  
11:15 you’re not,
if I may point out,
  
11:20 listening to a speaker,
 
11:24 listening to a man on the platform.
 
11:29 He is not important at all.
 
11:35 And the speaker really means this,
 
11:38 he is not important, the speaker.
 
11:43 But perhaps you might give your ear
to what he says,
  
11:49 as two friends talking
over things very seriously.
  
11:59 We are asking
what is the relationship
  
12:03 between freedom and self-interest?
 
12:08 Where do you draw the line
between freedom and self-interest?
  
12:19 And what is self-interest?
 
12:22 What is its relationship
to thought and to time?
  
12:28 Please, all these questions
are involved in freedom.
  
12:38 Bearing in mind that freedom is not
fulfilling one’s own ambitions,
  
12:46 greed, envy, and so on.
 
12:55 What is the relationship
of self-interest
  
13:01 with regard to freedom?
 
13:05 You know what self-interest is?
 
13:09 Self-interest may hide under
every stone of our life – right?
  
13:23 Are we talking together?
 
13:29 Are you quite sure
we are talking together?
  
13:35 Not somebody higher up
 
13:38 but we are all sitting
on the same level.
  
13:46 What is self-interest?
 
13:50 Can one consciously, deliberately
enquire into that?
  
13:59 How deep, how superficial,
where it is necessary,
  
14:04 where it totally, completely,
has no place at all?
  
14:12 You understand my question?
We are together questioning.
  
14:18 Self-interest has brought about
 
14:20 a great deal of confusion
in the world,
  
14:25 a great deal of disorder,
confusion, conflict.
  
14:36 Whether that self-interest be
identified with a country,
  
14:41 with a community, with a family,
 
14:45 or with God, with the beliefs,
 
14:50 the faiths, and so on,
 
14:53 it is all self-interest,
 
14:56 seeking enlightenment
 
14:59 – for God’s sake,
as though you can seek it.
  
15:05 Also in that search
there is the self-interest,
  
15:12 and also there is self-interest
 
15:13 when you build a house,
have insurance, mortgages.
  
15:23 And the self-interest is
encouraged commercially.
  
15:31 And also by all religions:
 
15:34 they talk about liberation
but self-interest first.
  
15:46 And we have to live in this world,
 
15:53 we have to function,
have to earn money,
  
15:56 have children,
be married or not married.
  
16:06 And living in this world
of the twentieth century,
  
16:11 how deep or how superficial,
is our self-interest?
  
16:20 It is important
to enquire into this.
  
16:26 Self-interest divides people
– right?
  
16:30 We and they, you and I,
 
16:33 my interest opposed
to your interest,
  
16:37 my family interests
oppose your family interests,
  
16:44 your country, my country
 
16:48 in which I have invested
a great deal of emotion
  
16:55 and physical interest
 
16:59 for which I am willing
to fight and kill, which is war.
  
17:13 And we invest our interest in ideas,
 
17:20 faith, beliefs, dogmas,
 
17:24 in rituals, and so on
– this whole cycle.
  
17:30 At the root of it there is
a great deal of self-interest.
  
17:38 Now, can one live in this
world daily, clearly,
  
17:49 with self-interest
where it is necessary
  
17:55 – please, I am using
this word carefully –
  
17:58 where it is physically necessary,
 
18:04 and psychologically,
inwardly,
  
18:06 it is totally abandoned?
 
18:11 Is that possible?
 
18:14 You understand?
Are we together?
  
18:21 Is it possible for each one of us
 
18:27 living here in a very, very
complex society,
  
18:34 competitive,
 
18:38 divided by agreement
and disagreement,
  
18:44 faith opposing another faith,
 
18:48 this great division
that is going on,
  
18:52 not only individually
but collectively,
  
18:57 and living in this world,
 
19:02 where do we draw the line
 
19:08 between self-interest
and no self-interest
  
19:16 whatsoever psychologically?
 
19:21 Can we do that?
 
19:25 You can talk about it endlessly,
 
19:27 as we like to go to talks and
lectures and listen to somebody,
  
19:38 but here we have
to observe together,
  
19:48 you have to not only listen
to each other verbally
  
19:55 but also deeply, inwardly, find out,
 
20:03 extensively,
not just my self-interest,
  
20:06 extensively, wholly,
 
20:10 where self-interest lies.
 
20:17 And inwardly,
psychologically,
  
20:20 can one live without any kind
of muttering of self-interest,
  
20:26 of the self, the ‘me’,
 
20:28 which is the essence
of self-interest?
  
20:39 Another can’t explain,
 
20:41 or say: this is self-interest,
this is not self-interest,
  
20:47 that would be terrible.
 
20:51 But one can find out for oneself,
 
20:59 either very carefully enquiring,
step by step,
  
21:08 hesitantly,
not coming to any conclusion
  
21:15 and find out for oneself.
 
21:18 Because there is nobody
who is going to help us.
  
21:24 I think this we must be
completely assured of:
  
21:29 nobody is going to help us.
 
21:32 They may pretend
and you may pretend,
  
21:39 but the actuality is:
 
21:41 after these two and half
million years or 40,000 years
  
21:48 we are still seeking help,
and we are stuck.
  
21:54 We are coming
to the end of our tether.
  
22:05 And in the enquiry
into self-interest
  
22:11 we have to go
into the question also:
  
22:16 what is freedom
 
22:20 and freedom implies love,
 
22:27 freedom does not mean
irresponsibility,
  
22:32 doing exactly what one wants
 
22:36 which has brought about
such a mess in the world.
  
22:41 And also, what relationship
is self-interest to thought?
  
22:54 We went into the question
of time the other day,
  
22:59 and also thought, thinking.
 
23:10 Shall we go into it briefly,
what time and thought – need we?
  
23:18 It is no good repeating it
over and over again,
  
23:21 it gets rather monotonous,
for the speaker at least.
  
23:31 So he has to vary the words,
 
23:37 the special phrasing,
 
23:42 the silence between the phrases,
 
23:45 all that is implied not to be bored
for the speaker.
  
23:51 But if you merely listen to words,
words, words,
  
23:58 and not act,
 
24:02 then we will be left
only with ashes.
  
24:13 Time, as we said,
is part of evolution
  
24:20 of the brain,
 
24:25 two and a half million years.
 
24:28 Time is also sunrise, sunset.
 
24:34 Time also is hope
– I hope, one hopes.
  
24:42 Time also is remembrance.
 
24:47 Time is also all the knowledge,
experience
  
24:52 that one has gathered,
 
24:54 which is knowledge,
 
24:58 both scientific, personal,
collective, racial, and so on.
  
25:06 Time is tradition.
 
25:14 And thought is based on knowledge,
 
25:20 which is the outcome of experience,
 
25:27 whether that experience be personal,
 
25:32 collective, racial or traditional,
 
25:37 it is still knowledge.
 
25:41 And knowledge is always limited
 
25:48 either in the infinite future
or infinite past,
  
25:54 because knowledge is essentially
put together through experience,
  
26:02 adding more and more
to what already has been known.
  
26:09 That is what
the scientists are doing.
  
26:11 That is what we are doing,
adding more and more.
  
26:15 So knowledge is
always limited, always.
  
26:21 The past, present and future.
 
26:24 And time is a process of this
accumulation called knowledge.
  
26:33 We needed time to go to the moon,
 
26:41 time to think it out,
 
26:45 time to co-operate collectively,
and so on.
  
26:50 So time-thought are not separate,
they are one single movement.
  
26:57 All right?
Are we going together?
  
27:01 Or it is all just words?
 
27:06 So time is not only the past,
the present and the future,
  
27:13 the present modifying the past
and therefore the future,
  
27:22 the future of tomorrow
is what I am today.
  
27:29 So now, that is, the moment
that you are sitting there
  
27:34 as you are listening,
 
27:35 as you are paying perhaps attention,
 
27:40 the now contains all time.
 
27:48 So if one really deeply,
profoundly understands that,
  
27:59 then change is totally meaningless.
 
28:09 You are what you are now.
 
28:15 And to remain with that,
not say, ‘Well I hope to change it’,
  
28:20 ‘I will become this. I am violent
but I will be later non-violent’.
  
28:27 You understand
what we are talking about?
  
28:29 We are together in this?
 
28:33 Don’t be puzzled,
it is very, very simple.
  
28:38 It is really terribly simple
if you come to look at it.
  
28:46 I am violent today.
 
28:49 I have been violent
for the last 2.5 million years,
  
28:55 so have you.
 
28:57 We have been violent
– right?
  
29:01 We have tried to cover it over
with words, with explanations,
  
29:08 with logical conclusions,
 
29:13 but we are still violent,
 
29:16 killing each other,
hurting each other,
  
29:18 both physically
and psychologically,
  
29:22 competitive, barbarous
– right?
  
29:27 We are violent people.
 
29:30 All that is going on in the world,
 
29:34 throwing bombs, the terrorists,
 
29:36 all the horrible things
that are happening
  
29:40 to the animals,
to other human beings.
  
29:44 Don’t you know all this?
 
29:47 Right?
We know all this.
  
29:51 We are violent people.
 
29:56 If there is no transformation now,
now, at this moment, at this second,
  
30:04 tomorrow you will still be violent
– right?
  
30:08 That is logical, reasonable.
 
30:15 Do pay a little attention to this
if you don’t mind.
  
30:22 If I am angry, hating,
antagonistic now,
  
30:29 I will be the same tomorrow – right?
It is obvious.
  
30:37 So the now contains the past,
the present and the future.
  
30:55 So any change implies
a movement in time – right?
  
31:01 I am this but I will be that.
 
31:06 That means time,
 
31:10 which means I have really not
captured the significance of time.
  
31:21 But if I remain with ‘what is’
completely,
  
31:28 without any single movement
away from that,
  
31:35 that which I observe,
hold, stay with,
  
31:39 is me.
 
31:43 Violence is not separate from me,
I am violent.
  
31:48 Anger is not separate from me,
I am anger.
  
31:53 Greed, envy
– I am that.
  
31:57 But we have separated it,
therefore there is conflict.
  
32:01 This is all very simple,
I don’t have to...
  
32:05 It is clear between us somewhat?
 
32:09 Not, I am making it clear to you.
 
32:15 You are making
the thing clear for yourself
  
32:19 so it is not you understand
what is being said
  
32:27 or the speaker explains
what he means,
  
32:30 or you can say,
‘I don’t understand you’.
  
32:33 You are not understanding
the speaker,
  
32:35 you are understanding yourself,
 
32:40 you are looking at yourself,
 
32:43 if you are not too depressed,
if you are not too lazy,
  
32:46 if you are not too concerned
with superficial things.
  
32:54 So time, thought,
 
32:59 self-interest,
 
33:04 and in all this cycle
there is no freedom,
  
33:09 obviously.
 
33:12 Where there is self-interest
there can never be freedom.
  
33:18 It is so obvious.
 
33:22 So simple if you look at it.
 
33:25 And the more simple it is,
the more subtle,
  
33:28 the more extraordinary depth it has.
 
33:37 We also ought to talk over together
 
33:40 the whole acquisitive,
pleasurable, gratifying process
  
33:46 – all right?
 
33:49 You are willing to go into all this?
 
33:53 Don’t say, ‘Yep!’
 
34:02 It is like digging in the earth
to find gold;
  
34:10 you don’t find gold
scratching the earth,
  
34:14 superficially scratching,
 
34:16 you have to dig,
 
34:20 you have to go down
very, very deeply.
  
34:29 Not up in the air, in the sky
 
34:32 but you are the entire humanity,
as we said the other day.
  
34:40 So you don’t have to look
for another to help you,
  
34:46 or to help you to dig
or to go into yourself,
  
34:50 you are that,
you are the whole mankind
  
34:56 because what you think
millions of others think,
  
35:01 think, not what they think about
– thinking.
  
35:10 Thinking is common to all mankind,
 
35:15 whether they are scientists,
whether they are Buddhists
  
35:18 or Tibetans or God knows what else.
 
35:22 They all think.
 
35:25 They all have pleasure,
 
35:28 sexually, or pleasure in attachment,
in possession,
  
35:35 pleasure in achieving position,
 
35:40 money, glory, fame,
and all that business.
  
35:50 And all human beings,
 
35:55 whatever race, colour,
prejudice, religion,
  
35:59 they all go through pleasure,
pain, anxiety, uncertainty
  
36:08 and sorrow – right?
 
36:11 So it is not your
particular sorrow only,
  
36:16 it is not your own
particular pleasure,
  
36:19 it is the pleasure of mankind.
 
36:23 Right?
 
36:28 We have always sought pleasure,
 
36:36 physically, psychologically,
 
36:39 and if we do not find it there,
 
36:40 we invent something
extra-territorial,
  
36:47 little green men!
 
36:56 Sorry to laugh about it.
 
37:06 Pleasure in acquisition,
possession
  
37:14 – I possess you, you possess me –
 
37:21 think it over, look at it.
 
37:25 And that pleasure is always
clouded over with fear.
  
37:40 So, pleasure, fear,
self-interest, time, thought
  
37:46 are all one movement,
not separate movements
  
37:51 – right?
 
37:55 And also we ought to enquire
into what is suffering,
  
38:03 why man from time beyond time
 
38:10 has suffered.
 
38:19 They’ve done everything on God’s
earth to escape from suffering,
  
38:26 not only physical suffering,
 
38:32 but much more important,
psychological suffering.
  
38:42 And in spite of all religions,
 
38:46 one particular religion
 
38:47 worshipping death, suffering,
as they do in Christianity,
  
38:56 and other religions
having other escapes,
  
39:05 they have never,
 
39:07 man has never, or woman,
has never solved this problem.
  
39:14 They bear with it,
they tolerate it,
  
39:18 they get crippled by it,
 
39:20 they become psychopathic,
 
39:25 shed tears.
 
39:35 And suffering is common
to the whole lot of us
  
39:41 in different forms.
 
39:43 Either it becomes exaggerated,
 
39:48 or you just shed tears and
keep it to yourself and carry on.
  
39:58 And there is always
this killing of each other.
  
40:05 Right?
 
40:08 Thousands, millions upon millions
have shed tears,
  
40:18 the brutality of it all,
 
40:20 the insanity of war,
 
40:25 building armaments
 
40:28 while millions and millions starve
– I don’t have to go into all that.
  
40:32 It is all very clear.
 
40:38 One nationality
fighting another nationality,
  
40:42 another group of human
beings like yourself,
  
40:45 you may call yourself
British, Indian, or other label,
  
40:52 but you are human beings first.
 
40:59 So we are asking,
is there an end to war,
  
41:02 end to suffering – not to war.
 
41:10 As long as we are separate,
 
41:14 as a family, as a community
 
41:21 or a clique,
 
41:25 as a nation, religious, and so on,
 
41:28 this division is going to create
always, perpetually conflict.
  
41:36 You and me.
 
41:40 We and they.
 
41:42 This is our game
we have been playing.
  
41:45 First tribal, limited,
now it is global.
  
41:53 So we are asking ourselves:
is there an end to sorrow?
  
42:00 Put this question seriously
to yourself.
  
42:06 Because where there is sorrow
there cannot be love.
  
42:12 There can be sympathy,
pity, tolerance, empathy,
  
42:21 but generosity, pity, sympathy
is not love.
  
42:27 Love may contain all that
or have all that
  
42:31 but the parts don’t make the whole.
 
42:40 You can collect all
the sympathy, empathy,
  
42:43 kindness, generosity, friendship,
 
42:48 but that is not love.
 
42:56 So, is there an end to sorrow?
 
43:03 And this requires immense,
 
43:07 a great deal of energy
to go into it,
  
43:10 not just say,
‘Well, I will think about it’.
  
43:14 Thinking may be
the factor of sorrow.
  
43:23 My son is dead
 
43:26 and I have got his photograph
 
43:27 on the mantelpiece
or on the piano in a silver frame,
  
43:33 I remember.
 
43:38 Remembrance is
a process of thought.
  
43:42 Of course.
 
43:44 Thinking how we enjoyed
the sunset together,
  
43:51 how we walked in the forest,
laughing, skipping,
  
43:57 and he is gone.
 
44:00 But the remembrance of him goes on.
 
44:10 And that remembrance
may be the factor of sorrow.
  
44:19 I don’t want to admit
my son is dead, gone.
  
44:31 To admit such a fact
is to admit utter loneliness.
  
44:43 And we don’t want to face this fact
of being utterly by oneself.
  
44:58 And so I look for another.
 
45:02 I rely for my happiness,
satisfaction, sexually or otherwise,
  
45:09 – look to another.
 
45:12 And I play the same game
over and over again.
  
45:17 But I have not ended sorrow,
 
45:20 not I, the speaker,
but we have not ended sorrow.
  
45:28 Sorrow is not only
self-pity, self-interest,
  
45:34 but also the loss of that
which I have had,
  
45:40 the loss,
 
45:42 the failure to fulfil, to achieve,
 
45:50 to gain something
which I have worked for,
  
45:56 not only physically,
but psychologically, inwardly.
  
46:07 All this is implied in sorrow
and much more.
  
46:16 And we are asking of ourselves,
 
46:22 nobody is putting this question
or demand this challenge to you,
  
46:26 but you are asking this of yourself
 
46:30 whether sorrow can end.
 
46:35 Not only the sorrow of oneself,
where it is there in oneself,
  
46:42 but also the sorrow of mankind,
of which you are.
  
46:49 That means no killing of another,
 
46:56 no psychologically wounding another.
 
47:00 Yes, sirs!
 
47:09 As we said, where there is sorrow
there cannot be love,
  
47:16 which is a fact.
 
47:18 So we ought to enquire or look
 
47:22 – not enquire, but look –
 
47:25 what is love.
 
47:32 That word has been so used,
 
47:35 so spat upon, dirtied and made ugly.
 
47:41 ‘I love my country’,
‘I love my god’,
  
47:48 ‘I am devoted, I pray for love’.
 
47:57 Right?
 
47:59 ‘I am not loved
but I want to be loved’
  
48:04 – the love poems.
 
48:07 Is love sensation?
 
48:11 Please ask yourself
all these questions.
  
48:16 Is love a continuation
and remembrance of pleasure?
  
48:31 Is love desire?
 
48:37 You know what desire is?
 
48:42 May I go into it briefly?
 
48:48 What is desire,
 
48:51 by which you are driven and riven,
 
48:57 torn apart
 
48:59 – what is that thing called desire?
 
49:08 Not to suppress it,
not to transmute it
  
49:11 or do something with it,
 
49:16 but what is the movement of desire,
how does it come about?
  
49:26 Are you putting
these questions to yourself
  
49:28 or do you want
the speaker to explain?
  
49:33 For God’s sake!
 
49:39 Let’s go into it.
 
49:43 We live by sensation,
 
49:47 whether physical sensation
or psychological sensation.
  
49:55 Sensation is part of response,
 
50:01 part of comparison, and so on,
sensation, I sense, feel,
  
50:09 I sense the atmosphere, good or bad.
 
50:16 Sensation
– right?
  
50:20 That sensation comes about
through seeing, touching, hearing,
  
50:28 and then what happens
after sensation?
  
50:35 Oh, come on, sirs!
 
50:37 Thought comes in and uses that
sensation as an image – right?
  
50:46 I see a nice house, or a garden,
or a nice picture, or furniture,
  
50:52 or a nice woman
 
50:56 and there is sensation,
the seeing,
  
51:06 the observing.
 
51:08 The observing, contact,
then sensation comes.
  
51:18 Unless there is sensation
we are paralysed,
  
51:22 as most of us are!
 
51:26 We are paralysed
if we don’t have sensation,
  
51:30 in our legs, in our hands,
all the rest of it.
  
51:35 So sensation,
then what happens?
  
51:43 Thought takes sensation and
makes that into an image – right?
  
51:51 I see you beautifully
dressed, clean, healthy,
  
51:55 bright, good,
 
51:59 a good brain,
and all the rest of that.
  
52:03 I see that, the way you talk,
 
52:06 the way you do this and that,
and so on.
  
52:11 Then thought says,
I wish I were like him, or her.
  
52:17 At that moment desire is born
– right?
  
52:22 Sensation, then desire
 
52:26 – then thought giving shape
to that sensation.
  
52:37 And if there is an interval
between sensation and thought,
  
52:40 then you can go into it much more,
but not now.
  
52:47 You understand?
 
52:49 Are we somewhat
together in this?
  
53:00 You see, sirs, our difficulty is,
we are so complex in our thinking,
  
53:08 so want to find out,
always looking, looking, looking,
  
53:13 finding an answer
to problems, solutions
  
53:17 and ‘how am I to do this’.
 
53:19 We are never simple.
 
53:22 Not physically, for God’s sake,
don’t reduce it to having some food,
  
53:26 or little clothes, or food,
 
53:29 or eating one meal, and all that.
 
53:34 What is that kind of food
that’s called –
  
53:42 I have forgotten the name of it,
you know, from Japan,
  
53:45 what is the name of it?
 
53:47 Audience: Macrobiotic.
K: Macrobiotic, that’s it.
  
53:52 Go crazy on that.
 
53:58 As one goes crazy about Yoga,
and all the rest of it,
  
54:02 Tai Chi
– you know, we play.
  
54:11 We are not playing.
 
54:16 This isn’t a fantasy.
 
54:18 This is something
you are hooked in.
  
54:23 This is our life, our everyday
lonely, ugly, little life.
  
54:37 So what is love?
 
54:41 Can love exist
where there is hate and fear,
  
54:48 where there is
competition and comparison,
  
54:54 where there is conformity,
agreeing or disagreeing?
  
55:03 Go into all this, sir.
 
55:06 Or is love nothing
to do with all this?
  
55:14 Is love something in the brain,
 
55:23 inside the skull?
 
55:28 Or is it something
entirely beyond thought and time?
  
55:39 And where there is self-interest
there cannot be love.
  
55:45 Obviously, sir,
you can see all this for yourself.
  
55:52 Then what relationship
has love to sorrow?
  
56:10 And can love be compassion,
 
56:13 not only I love you, you love me?
 
56:19 Love is not yours or mine,
it is love.
  
56:23 Right?
 
56:27 I may be married, have children,
sex, and all the rest of it.
  
56:34 In all that there may be
tenderness, generosity,
  
56:39 politeness, kindliness, yielding,
 
56:45 tolerating
 
56:51 – all that is not love.
 
56:58 So compassion and love
are not separate,
  
57:05 they are one.
 
57:10 And can one live like that?
 
57:12 You understand?
 
57:13 Can one have this in one’s life,
 
57:18 not in abstract moments
 
57:21 or in moments when you are
sitting by yourself on the sofa
  
57:26 or walking in the woods:
 
57:28 a flash, a scent, a perfume
 
57:35 that seems for a second
to transform your whole existence.
  
57:43 Can we live our daily life
with that perfume?
  
57:53 For that compassion
has its own intelligence,
  
58:01 not the compassion of a man
going out to India or to Africa
  
58:06 and do some missionary work,
or helping the poor, desperate poor,
  
58:13 that is not love.
 
58:17 Where there is love
there is absolute freedom,
  
58:22 not to do what you like,
 
58:27 not to assert yourself
or convert others.
  
58:33 All that kind of silly stuff!
 
58:40 So that intelligence
 
58:44 is not the intelligence of thought
– right?
  
58:50 One needs a great
deal of intelligence,
  
58:54 a tremendous lot of intelligence
to go to the moon
  
58:58 or to put a submarine together,
 
59:04 to build a computer
– right?
  
59:07 That is partial intelligence.
 
59:12 The scientist, the painter, poet,
 
59:16 the ordinary person
who bakes a bread
  
59:20 – that is part intelligence,
it is not complete intelligence.
  
59:28 And that holistic intelligence,
 
59:32 the whole quality
of that intelligence
  
59:35 can only come about
with the ending of sorrow and love,
  
59:43 and that acts,
 
59:45 not the action which is partial,
 
59:49 brought about by thought and time.
 
1:00:19 May we get up?
 
1:00:22 Or shall we sit still?
 
1:00:26 We can’t hold hands
 
1:00:30 but we can sit quietly
for a few minutes.
  
1:00:33 Shall we?
Good.
  
1:00:38 Not meditate.
 
1:00:42 Sit quietly.
 
1:01:14 Will you kindly get up?
 
1:01:17 Then the speaker will get up.