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CO80D - The root of all fear
Colombo, Sri Lanka - 12 November 1980
Public Discussion



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first public question and answer meeting in Colombo, 1980.
0:10 Krishnamurti: We’re going to have I believe what is called a discussion.
0:20 It’s really a dialogue. Discussion generally means offering opinions and opposing another set of opinions, and through opinions try to find what is true.
0:41 That is generally called discussion – arguments opposing other arguments, offering one conclusion opposed to another conclusion, one theory against another theory, and so on.
1:01 But I think it would be wise, if I may suggest, that we should have a dialogue.
1:11 Dialogue means, I’m sure you know it too, conversation between two people, dialogos, conversation, friendly, amicable, and trying to solve their particular problems, every kind of problem.
1:40 And such a dialogue would be worthwhile, not argument against argument, but conversation between you and the speaker.
1:58 And as there are so many, we cannot have a dialogue – which means conversation between two people – so shall we then resort to question and answer?
2:19 Would that be right? Would you agree to that? You question the speaker, whatever you like – whether he’s crazy or not crazy – anything you like.
2:36 And in answering… asking a question, we must, both the questioner must... the questioner must have the intention of comprehending that question.
2:57 And so if you will kindly begin by asking questions.
3:28 Questioner: Is not a non-military world government the only solution to the present-day world problems?
3:42 K: You are suggesting, are you, sir, that we should have a world government?
3:46 Q: That’s right, sir.
3:48 K: And thereby solve all our problems.
3:52 Q: Yes.
3:53 K: Yes. Would you kindly sit down, sir?
4:00 Q: Yes.
4:01 K: This world organisation, having no nationality, having no wars and therefore no... one government, world.
4:18 This has been proposed very often, all over the world, not only here in Ceylon – or Sri Lanka, pardon – but also in America, Europe and so on.
4:32 But who is to organise it? Who is going to bring it about? Who will undertake the responsibility to see that there is a world government?
4:46 Is it just a theory that we should have a world government, or do we, you and I, and all of us, think globally, think as a human being concerned with other human beings, totally, all round the world, not just a particular group, a particular commune, a particular society – have we a mind that is concerned with the global problem?
5:29 Which is what? War, economy, society, injustice, and so on.
5:40 Are we human beings concerned totally with other human beings?
5:48 Or we are only concerned with ourselves first, and the world society, world government second.
6:02 I do not know if I’m making my answer clear. Are we concerned as human beings with the rest of humanity or are we concerned as a single human being trying to organise a world government in which he or she or many will have a prominent position?
6:34 You’re following all this? So if I may ask, when we talk about world government, world organisation, world religion, world economy, where would we begin?
6:50 Sir, if I may point out, to go very far, you must begin very near.
6:58 Isn’t that it? To go very far I must begin very near, which is me, which is you. If you want to go very far, you must begin with yourself first.
7:18 And is your mind, if I may ask most respectfully, politely, without any sense of impudence, is your mind capable of comprehending the global issue?
7:37 Do you understand? That is, there is a crisis in human condition.
7:48 Am I making... may I go on? There’s a crisis in human condition, in human consciousness, and there the world government begins.
8:10 I’ve answered that question. Perhaps we’ll go to the next. Unless you want me to go on into it.
8:22 Q: Sir… [inaudible] K: Just a minute, sir.
8:30 Just a minute, sir. Just a minute, somebody asked a question. What, sir?
8:39 Q: Hello, sir? I came at your residence day before yesterday.
8:56 I asked some questions but I could not get satisfactory answers.
9:05 Today, again, I want to ask some more questions.
9:12 First, please: you told that the meditation has no meaning whatsoever, meditation is leading to the illusion.
9:28 Is it true? I have got four, five questions but this is my first one.
9:46 K: I am supposed to have said that meditation is illusion?
9:57 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, if one person would tell me what that gentleman said, it would be much better than two or three people saying at the same time.
10:15 Would you kindly?
10:16 Q: You are alleged to have said mediation leads to illusion and has no meaning.
10:25 K: I never said meditation is an illusion and has no meaning. I’d be silly to say that. I don’t quite understand the question.
10:45 What is the question, sir?
10:47 Q: Sir, already I have attended your lecture on Saturday and I have got it taped also.
10:59 There is, you said, the meditation has no meaning whatsoever, meditation is leading to illusion.
11:10 I have got it taped also. And another question is: as you told, man is suffering, man or society is corrupted.
11:24 It is true. So I’m asking, is there any way to make an end of suffering?
11:36 K: Now would one of you please explain that question to me?
11:44 [Laughter] Sir, just a minute, sir. Sir, I meant... please, I don’t know why you’re laughing. I’m just asking out of politeness because I couldn’t make out clearly what he said.
11:56 Q: He seems to be saying that you have indicated that society is corrupting man. His question is therefore: in what way can this society be ended. I believe that’s what he’s asking.
12:06 K: Is that the question? And what is meditation.
12:14 Q: Yes.
12:15 K: He said I’m supposed to have said meditation leads to illusion.
12:23 Now, may I answer your question, sir?
12:32 I never say meditation leads to illusion, but I did say, the speaker did say, that unless you lay the right kind of foundation, which is righteous behaviour, right action, right relationship, and so on, meditation then is an escape from daily life, meditation then will inevitably create illusions, and such meditation has no meaning.
13:17 That’s what I’ve said. And society, which is corrupt, as it is, immoral, there is great deal of injustice, poverty and so on, that can only be changed if human beings who have created the society change themselves.
13:47 That’s a very simple statement. Either you agree or you don’t agree. Or you might say society can only be changed when environment is changed.
14:05 Which the communists, socialists and others maintain – change the environment then man will naturally change.
14:17 There have been revolutions on this basis and man has not changed.
14:30 So it seems fairly rational, clear, that society is brought about by human beings.
14:45 As human beings are violent, are ambitious, seeking power, position and all the rest of it, they create a society in which they live.
15:04 And the answer to that is simple. Which is, let us begin with ourselves who are the makers of society.
15:16 Right? You see, that is the point we all seem to avoid. We expect society to be changed by somebody, by governments, by dictators, by professors of philosophy, and so on.
15:39 That is, let somebody else do the changing, we will then change and go into it.
15:49 Which is, naturally... which never happens. But if we could begin with ourselves, to change ourselves radically, then perhaps there’s a possibility of bringing about a different society.
16:09 Have I answered your question, sir?
16:22 Q: Is there any way to change the corrupted man?
16:30 How can we change, and what is the way or what is the system?
16:38 K: What is the way, are you asking, sir, to bring about this change in man.
16:55 What is a man to do to change himself. Is that the question, sir?
17:02 Q: Yes.
17:04 K: All right. What am I, as a human being, to do to bring about a change in myself and therefore in society?
17:23 First of all, cease to be nationalistic. Right? Don’t belong to a particular nation because nationalism with its technological knowledge is destroying the world, with wars.
17:42 Right, sir? Or do you disagree with that? So don’t be a nationalist, don’t be a Singhalese nor a Indian nor a Muslim nor a Buddhist, nor a believer in God, Catholic, Protestant, and all that, because religions have divided man.
18:19 So to bring about a radical change in oneself one must begin with the outward first, the outward division.
18:34 Right? That is the criterion by which we can judge, say that: I’m a human being not a label.
18:47 I’m a human being who is looking for truth, who wants to live peacefully, justly, with right behaviour.
19:09 And, if you want to go into it much deeper, one must have freedom, because we are prisoners, psychologically.
19:31 You may go to England or America or other parts of the world but inwardly, psychologically, inside the skin as it were, we are prisoners, prisoners of our desire, prisoners of our ambition, prisoners of our attachments, and so on.
19:58 There must be freedom from that, because psychological freedom gives tremendous energy.
20:14 One has physical energy but we are destroying the psychological energy by all this burden.
20:27 So if one seriously goes into this matter, freedom is absolutely necessary, psychologically, to bring about a different world.
20:46 I hope I’ve answered your question.
21:02 Q: [Inaudible] K: Have you understood the question, sir?
21:15 Q: The gentleman says that this is the international year of the child and he’s asking this question as a father. He says if this child is raised according to a religious background, what will be the effect in the year two thousand on this child’s conscience?
21:33 Q: Will he be a slave to the old conscience, if I brought him up into a religious background and later when he attained adulthood...
21:46 K: Sir, mustn’t you enquire what is a religious background?
21:47 Q: He says if he brings his child...
21:49 K: I understand, sir. I understand the question, sir. But mustn’t you enquire before you bring up the child, educate him, what is a religious background?
22:05 Is organised Buddhism religious background? Please, you understand? Organised religion, which exists all over the world, is not religion, it’s a big business – if you will forgive me for saying all this.
22:28 It’s a very well organised business, in the name of God, in the name of whatever it is.
22:38 So is that religion? So before you try to bring up a child, educate him with a religious background, surely it’s important to find out what we mean by religion.
22:59 Is religion belief? Is religion a series of rituals? Is religion to be translated by the priest? Come on, sir, these are your questions, you have to ask.
23:26 Or is religion merely a series of traditions, dogmas, handed down generation after generation?
23:37 So one must surely, before we try to encourage a religious mind in a child, we must enquire first into these matters, not just say: I accept being a Christian or a Hindu or whatever it is because my forefathers were Hindus.
24:04 Perhaps this may be too much. You may object to all this. But your objection can be met sanely if we examine the religions the world has at the present moment.
24:28 Have I answered your question, sir?
24:36 Q: Yes, sir.
24:37 K: Don’t, please, agree with me – that’s the easiest thing to do. But together, you and the speaker, investigate what religion really means.
24:56 To me, personally, I’m a religious man, in the profound sense of that word.
25:08 I have, the speaker has no belief of any kind, no dogma, no rituals, not seeking aid from an outside agency.
25:25 Because you are a human being totally responsible for yourself, for your actions, for your relationship with another, and so on.
25:39 Q: [Inaudible]… but if the child is to be moulded. The moulding of a child, it makes it easier to get a conscience within him if a certain amount of religious background is also there behind him.
26:01 K: You want to mould the child – is that it?
26:04 Q: Yes, to mould him...
26:07 K: Yes, you want to mould the child because you’re such a marvellous human being [laughter] and so you want to mould the child, according to your pattern, according to your doctrines, according to your beliefs, according to your knowledge.
26:27 What is the responsibility of a parent to a child?
26:31 Q: That is a very important question.
26:33 K: I’m asking it, sir. [Laughter] Q: Krishnaji, in my belief, I believe that the greatest responsibility is to educate the child, as parents… [inaudible].
26:45 But there are certain traditions where religion also plays a very great part because as a parent, parents cannot have so much time to devote to the child.
27:06 The school, the church, all the temples, also give a certain...
27:15 K: Sir, if you don’t mind, make it brief because other people might like to ask questions too.
27:22 Q: That’s why I want to ask… [inaudible] …what does he do?
27:30 K: What should you do, are you asking, sir, with regard to your child.
27:37 Right? It’s a very complex question. First of all, what is your relationship to the child?
27:51 Is your relationship one of authority?
27:58 Or your relationship with regard to the child: affection, care, protection.
28:09 If you have real affection – I’m not saying you haven’t – if one has affection, love towards the child, what do you mean by that affection, what do you mean by that love?
28:28 See, we are playing with words. Unless we are very clear, the usage of words, like ‘moulding the child’ – so, please, if I may point out, one must first find out for oneself the way we live with our conflicts, with our miseries, with our confusion, and do we want to bring that child into that society, encourage him to be in conflict with himself and with others?
29:15 Surely it’s our responsibility to go into all that.
29:20 Q: Without a universal system of education, it is not possible to bring about an unconditioned child.
29:44 K: Right, sir. What kind of system do you want?
29:50 Q: A system where children see themselves as human beings as well as...
29:56 K: Sir, sir, are we discussing this as a theory, as something we should, or actually what is happening?
30:09 What is our education now, our university, our colleges, our schools?
30:19 I’m sure the chancellor of the... and the boss of the university are here, and I hope they don’t mind if I explore their position.
30:39 We are educating our children, are we not – actually, please, not theoretically, because I’ve no theory, the speaker dislikes theories because they are not factual – our education now is to instil a lot of information into the child, into the boy, into the grown-up student, so that he’ll have a job, being well informed about various subjects so that he can become a carpenter, doctor, professor, and perhaps, God forbid, a politician.
31:35 [Laughter] We are moulding the child to conform to the pattern of the society as it is now, to the establishment.
31:45 If you don’t like to use that word ‘establishment’ we can say ‘the present state of affairs’.
31:54 And we condition him to that. Therefore his whole life, from the moment he enters the school till he dies, it’s a series of constant strife.
32:11 Which is a fact. Is that what you want your child to grow up to? Or is there a different kind of education? Which is not only to make the boy and the girl academically excellent but also to help him to understand his whole psychological nature, which is the central factor of conflict.
32:54 So which is it that the present education offers? They are making them, perhaps, excellent academic students. I don’t know if it is being done here, that’s not my business.
33:12 But some of the European people say: we don’t want to be educated in this way, we don’t want to conform to the pattern.
33:27 So they are in revolt. And being in revolt they do all kinds of absurd things. And what shall we do, you and the others, the speaker, all of us together, what shall we do to bring about a good academic career and a good human being?
34:04 What shall we do? That is the problem, sir. You understand my question, sir? What shall we do? Actually, not theoretically: we must have this and that – but actually you, all of us together, what can we do?
34:24 Q: Sir, may I say one thing?
34:30 K: Madame, are you referring to that question?
34:31 Q: Yes, to that question that you asked. You know, today in schools there are many children, in schools. And there are a lot of Tamil parents and Singhalese parents too. And the children have the habit of saying: they are those and we are those. If we can stop that in the kindergarten and the first, second, third standards, we might have gone up a step.
35:04 [Inaudible] …divides and divides, since the kindergarten.
35:22 So there are very fine Singhalese parents and very fine Tamil parents here. If we can start there, that’s what I want to suggest.
35:25 K: So what shall we do, madame?
35:40 [Laughter] This is happening all over the world, it’s not only in this country, it’s happening all over the world – the Catholics opposed to the Protestants, the Hindus opposed to the Buddhists, Muslims, and among the Islam people, they are subdivided.
36:05 The fact exists, because in this division man hopes to find security.
36:14 He says: if I am Tamil, it gives me a certain sense of security. If I’m a Catholic, I say: that gives me a certain protection.
36:26 So what shall we do? If I may again repeat the question: what shall we do together, all of us in this hall or at home, wherever you will, what shall we do together to bring about a different kind of education in the world?
36:48 Q: You have to set up a new set of schools… [inaudible] K: Sir, to start a new school means you have to have land, property, money, right kind of educator, and so on.
37:18 Are you prepared to do that, all of you? Sir, that’s what it is – you talk, talk, talk, but you won’t do a thing to alter.
37:34 You know, the speaker is connected with five schools in India, a school in England, in California and in Canada.
37:50 And it’s one of the most difficult things to find, the right teacher.
37:59 You understand, sir? The teachers, the educators, throughout the world, are the least respected people, least paid, and they’re burdened with a hundred students to a class, or more.
38:21 So if we are all, if all of us want a different school, different kind of education, we have got to get together – not just offering theories, opinions, this should be, that should be, but actually meeting the situation, which is, to create no division.
38:50 To see that they have… you know, sir, psychologically flower, grow.
38:57 But we’re not attending to any of that.
39:07 Q: Sir, fear of fear itself is a human problem.
39:22 May I please know the answer to that?
39:23 K: Fear, the gentleman says, is a human problem. How do you, or in what way, or what do you suggest, that this fear be dissolved.
39:36 Is that right, sir?
39:38 Q: Yes, sir.
39:40 K: I do not know, the speaker does not know if you were at the meeting last Sunday.
39:46 Q: I was, sir.
39:51 K: Shall we go into it, again? Are you interested in it? Sir, fear is a very complex problem.
40:08 It isn’t just: tell me what to do and I’ll get rid of fear, show me a method and I will practise it till I get rid of fear.
40:23 There is no method. But we can investigate together into the nature of fear, what is the root of fear, and in the very process of investigation – please follow this – in the process of the very investigation, begin to discern, perceive the cause of it.
40:56 Not search the cause outside the question, but in the very enquiry the cause is revealed.
41:09 You understand what I’m saying, sir? Please, if you don’t understand, tell me, and I’ll go into it again.
41:12 Q: Sir...
41:13 K: Just a minute, sir, let me explain. We waste energy, psychological energy, in trying to find a cause, cause of fear.
41:29 The psychiatrists are trying to do this, analyse fear – right?
41:38 – step by step by step, go into, and thereby discover the cause. They think by discovering the cause you can eliminate fear. It hasn’t come about. You understand this? I can discover why I smoke – I don’t, but suppose I do – suppose I smoke and I want to know why I smoke so I spend a great deal of energy in discovering the cause.
42:11 It is very... I don’t have to spend energy in discovering what is the cause – I like to smoke, it is a habit.
42:20 I don’t like it at first, but it has become a habit. So instead of seeing it directly, we waste energy in trying to find the cause. So the speaker is saying very simply, human beings right through history have been afraid.
42:41 Not only physical fears but psychological fears. Right? Shall we go on with this?
42:48 Q: Yes.
42:50 K: Psychological fears being in their relationship with another, the fear of not achieving what they want, the fear of public opinion, fear what happens after death, fear of various psychological pressures.
43:12 Right? Is that clear up to there? Right. So, what is fear? We are investigating it together. I’m not answering it, the speaker is not answering it. Together we are investigating it. Which means, I know I’m afraid, or you think you’re afraid, let’s go into it.
43:42 Take your own particular fear, whatever it be – it might be darkness, fear of darkness, fear of your wife or your husband, fear of public opinion, not getting a job, or fear of the future, and so on, so on – look at your own fear and together let’s investigate, not a particular fear, but fear.
44:14 Right? Can we do this?
44:16 Q: Yes.
44:17 K: Don’t agree, please, easily. It requires you to investigate, to explore. Though I’m using the words, you’re listening, exploring.
44:32 Right, sir? We’re asking, without analysis, what is fear?
44:45 Our minds are used to analyse.
44:52 You understand? That is, you must understand this question a little more, which is: who is the analyser?
45:04 Is the analyser different from that which he’s analysing? You understand? They are both the same, but thought has divided the analyser and the analysed.
45:21 That is, I am the analyser and I’m anxious, which is different from me, and I’m going to analyse it.
45:31 But anxiety is part of me. Right? So when there is the recognition or the realisation anxiety is part of me, my whole activity of suppressing it, analysing it, ceases.
45:53 I am fear. Right? Is that clear? Can we go on, sir? Have we communicated to each other this fact? We are fear, not: I am afraid of fear. May I go on, sir?
46:16 Q: May I know how to get rid of fear?
46:31 K: You see, we are investigating what is fear.
46:39 In the very investigation of fear, fear ends. Not: tell me how to get rid of fear. Please understand this. In exploring disease, a particular disease, you begin to understand how that disease arises.
47:01 You begin to understand the cure of the disease. You follow? In the same way, we are investigating fear. Not your particular fear but the root of fear. Right? I’m sorry to repeat this over and over again. So, we’re asking: what is the root of fear?
47:30 Don’t wait for the speaker to tell you – go with him, enquire.
47:39 That is, exercise, if I may respectfully point out, exercise your mind to find out. Don’t say: I’m sorry, I don’t know, and then go on with fear.
47:52 But if you say: look, I want to know what is fear.
47:59 Is there fear at the moment of fear? That’s the first question you have to ask. Do you know you are afraid at the moment, or a few seconds later you say: I’m afraid.
48:16 You’ve understood this question, sir?
48:17 Q: Can I pose a question, sir?
48:28 K: With regard to this, sir?
48:31 Q: It is related to this problem of fear.
48:38 I believe that fear is a good thing.
48:39 K: Oh, good. Then settled.
48:43 Q: I believe that there’s not much of a line of demarcation between fear and aggression.
49:02 That it is a very good dowry that we have got from either nature or God that fear can turn to aggression depending upon the degree of fear itself.
49:17 That fear gives a certain element of security given either by nature or by God, that a person...
49:18 K: Sir, sir, may I request most politely, please be brief, sir, because there are other questions to answer.
49:22 Q: I believe that there is more necessity to investigate fear.
49:37 K: All right.
49:39 Q: That fear is a...
49:41 K: …good thing.
49:42 Q: …necessary element in human life.
49:44 K: Right.
49:45 Q: I wish to continue the discussion on this question. Our learned lecturer had told us that we should remove the constraints of the mind in order to think freely – for instance, nationalism, religion and all these things – and freedom is essential.
50:05 I think that’s a very valuable idea that we have got in recent times, and considering the fact that among the great thinkers of India, to whom we have been always owing a lot for getting these ideas, I wish to just connect that with the very revolutionary thought given by one of the Indian thinkers in recent times.
50:37 K: Sir, forgive me, forgive me. I don’t quite understand what you’re saying, or hear what you’re saying. Would you be brief, sir, kindly?
50:44 Q: Yes, sir. What is your comment on the thinker who says that free sex and meditation is something that humanity should pursue?
50:57 Does that have some relation with the removal of the constraints of the mind?
51:01 K: Sir, sir, sir. We are talking about fear, not meditation.
51:06 Q: Well, of course...
51:09 K: Sir, sir, forgive me. We are talking about fear, not meditation.
51:17 Q: Right, sir. Then, of course, you can continue with it. I was only expecting some comments on that thinker’s idea.
51:38 Q: [Inaudible] [Pause] K: May the speaker continue with what we were talking about fear?
52:09 Q: Yes.
52:11 K: One gentleman says it is necessary and good to have fear.
52:20 Fear has been derived from the animals, it’s part of our human nature, therefore keep it.
52:30 But when there is a fear, have you noticed what happens to our psyche, to our body?
52:42 When there’s deep fear, life becomes very dark, frightened, greater fear arises – one lives in a kind of cell and all your organism shrivels.
53:03 Haven’t you noticed all this? So we’re going to together – please, together – examine, explore, investigate into what is the nature of fear and what is the root of fear.
53:24 Right? If we all agree to that, we can proceed. What is the root of fear? Not your particular fear. Fear is like a tree with many, many branches, with all kinds of flowers, fruits.
53:46 The activity of fear we all know, but we want to find out the root of it.
53:56 Then perhaps we can be free of it. So, we are investigating together to discover the root of it. Right? Not chop off a few branches. So, first, fear, the word ‘fear’ is not the fact.
54:22 Right? Please be clear on this matter. This hall, the word ‘hall’, is not the fact.
54:36 Right? Because our minds have become slaves to words. Singhalese – immediately you know where you are. So we are slave to words, to symbols, to concepts, to ideas.
55:00 So, the word ‘fear’ is not the actual state of fear.
55:07 Right? So, please bear that in mind in investigating. Which is, we are enquiring into the root of fear.
55:27 Right?
55:34 How does fear arise? I have done something in the past which has brought me great pain and if I don’t correct that action, I’m afraid it’ll come back again.
56:01 So there is an action which has caused fear in the past, thought remembers it and then projects into the future, saying: I hope I shall not be frightened.
56:21 You go to the dentist – you know, some of you have been to the dentist – he drills, there is pain.
56:30 That pain is recorded in the brain as an experience of pain.
56:39 That pain is over but tomorrow again it might recur, happen again, so there’s fear.
56:48 You understand? So fear is from the past to the present to the future. Right? Agree, sir? Please be clear on this. Don’t agree with me. What’s the point of your agreeing with me, because our intention is to see if fear cannot end.
57:11 But mere agreement with the speaker is nonsense. So, fear is a movement from the past to the present to the future.
57:26 Right? Which means what? Fear is the movement of time. That’s one aspect of fear. There is the physical fear of getting bitten by a dog, being hurt, and if you are hurt, remembering it and hoping, fearing, it will not happen again.
57:54 So there is the physical fear and there is the psychological fear, but both are time-binding, if I may use that word.
58:07 Right? Both involve the time element. That’s one factor. Then the other factor is: thought creates fear.
58:21 Right, sir? Do you understand this? I remember somebody insulting me and getting hurt by that and saying: I must protect myself not to be hurt anymore.
58:40 Q: Experience.
58:43 K: That is thought. Now, I’d better go into this. What is thought? What is it that… when you think what happens? As an engineer, as a carpenter, as a professor or a surgeon, what happens when you think?
59:13 You have an experience as a surgeon, you have learnt what it is to be a surgeon, you operate, learn, have knowledge stored up in the brain as memory, that memory is the movement of thought.
59:36 This is a fact – you don’t have to discuss this at any length. If you had no experience, no knowledge, no memory, there’d be no thinking – you’d be in a state of amnesia.
59:51 Right? And we human beings are thinking people. This hall is created by thought, designed on the paper, and the architect who did it has had previous experiences of building, and so on, so on.
1:00:13 So, experience, knowledge, memory, which is stored in the brain, and when that memory is challenged it responds as thought.
1:00:24 Clear, sir? There is no doubt about this. So thought is a material process. Nothing spiritual about thought. Right? Thought has created the church, the temple, and the things in the church and in the temple.
1:00:53 Thought has created it. You may not like to believe that, you’re welcome to believe what you like, but the fact is thought has created this world around us.
1:01:05 Not nature. Nature is created by various other activities. We won’t go into that. So, thought is the response of memory. Memory is stored in the brain as knowledge, from experience.
1:01:30 This whole movement is thought. Right, sir? This thought, we’re asking, does this thought create fear?
1:01:45 I’ve had pain last week, I was at the dentist or incident or accident or disease, which has caused great deal of pain, that was an experience, that experience has brought knowledge, stored up in the brain as pain, and then that memory says, thought says: I hope I will not have that pain next week.
1:02:19 Right? This is a fact. So, from that arises fear. So please question what I’m saying. Does thought create fear, as we saw that time creates fear?
1:02:40 Right? We said that a few minutes ago. Time, that is: I might lose my job.
1:02:55 Right? That is in the future. I haven’t lost it but I’m afraid I might lose it, because I’m not efficient or I’m this, or some other reason.
1:03:06 So there is the time factor of fear – right? – and thought as fear.
1:03:15 Now go slowly. Is thought different from time?
1:03:21 Q: No.
1:03:22 K: Think it out, sir. Please, sir, pay a... Don’t bother about that, just a little later can do it, sir. Is thought different from time?
1:03:38 Q: [Inaudible] K: Be quite sure, sir. Look: time is movement. Right? To go from here to where one lives needs... there is distance and you need time to get there.
1:03:57 So time is a movement, by the watch and by the sun – day, night.
1:04:08 So time is a factor of fear. Right, sir? And thought is also a factor of fear. And one is asking: are the two things separate or are they one?
1:04:29 Q: [Inaudible] K: Because both are movements, you understand?
1:04:39 Time is a movement, thought is a movement.
1:04:46 Movement means time. I wonder if you see that. Look, sir, I am envious and I say to myself: yes, I’m envious, but it’s wrong to be envious and I will take time to get over it.
1:05:03 Right? I need time, as many days, many hours, to get over that which I don’t like, or to keep what I like.
1:05:20 Right, sirs? So time and thought are one, they are not divisible. I don’t know if you understand this. I hope I’m making it clear. If I’m not, please ask and we’ll go into it. So we are saying time and thought are one, which is the cause of fear, which is the root of fear.
1:05:54 Right? Right, sirs?
1:06:00 Q: Which is more important, the movement or the time?
1:06:20 K: Movement is time, I said. Sir, to go from here to your house means movement.
1:06:35 To say: I will be. I am not but I will be – that is movement. So movement means time. Time means thought. Thought – please follow it – time means experience, knowledge, memory, thought.
1:07:08 To have experience takes time, to accumulate knowledge means time, so it is stored up in the brain.
1:07:19 Our brain is the result of time. Right? Nobody can refute this, please. So we say: is that the root of it, of fear?
1:07:38 If that is so, then what shall we do with thought, which breeds fear?
1:07:47 You understand my question, sir?
1:07:49 Q: Apparently there is a psychological time which creates fear.
1:07:55 K: That’s what I’m saying, sir. I said time by the watch, time by the day and night, and the psychological time.
1:08:08 Which is, I hope I will be that, I hope I will get rid of fear.
1:08:17 Which is time.
1:08:20 Q: Is it time?
1:08:24 K: That is time, sir. So, we’re asking: can time as thought come to an end, which then will not create fear?
1:08:37 Right? Have you understood this question, sirs? I am afraid, and I find the root of it is my thinking of what might happen, or what inevitably will happen if I have done something.
1:09:02 And I’ve also been conditioned, educated, tradition says: you are this, take time to change, come to that.
1:09:13 Right? So I see for myself – I don’t know if you see it – that time-thought is the factor, is the root of fear.
1:09:30 Q: Sir, will you allow me to continue?
1:09:35 Q: No.
1:09:36 K: With what we are talking about, sir?
1:09:39 Q: I want to reiterate my question and get an answer from you, learned sir, about the fact that society has not changed...
1:09:47 K: Oh my! Sir, sir, sir, we are talking about fear.
1:09:52 Q: Yes, I know that. I mean to say the same thing too, that society cannot be changed by a few people in the world. In history there has never been a society which has been good.
1:10:05 K: Sirs, society is you. If you change, you change society. Full stop. Let’s get on with it.
1:10:48 Q: Sir, is ecstasy the signpost of the overcoming of fear?
1:10:55 Is ecstasy the signpost of freedom from fear?
1:11:00 K: You’ll find that out, if you’re not afraid. You see, these questions have... Sir, please, please stick...
1:11:10 Q: Is there no difference between the nature of fear and the nature of time?
1:11:21 K: Oh Lordy, I’ve been into this, sir. I don’t know, I’m sorry, I’m not impatient. I’m only, please, pointing out, we have come to a point, if you have followed it, we have said time-thought is the factor of fear.
1:11:40 There is no doubt about that.
1:11:47 Then the question arises: is it possible for thought to end?
1:11:54 This is a very important question, you understand, sir? Is there an ending to time?
1:12:07 I have to find that out, not say: tell me how to end time. It sounds silly. But if I say: look, fear is the root of it and thought and time have made this root, I have discovered the relation between thought and time and the root.
1:12:33 So they’re all one. Right, sir? They are all one, they’re not separate. Then, if thought is the real root of fear, all my life is based on fear... on thought.
1:12:54 All I do, all my activity, my sexual appetites, everything is based on thought.
1:13:04 You understand this?
1:13:09 Q: Sir, I’m a little confused.
1:13:33 I would like to find out… [inaudible] …whether every type of thought is fear.
1:13:41 K: I build this building and to build it I must be an architect.
1:13:49 If I am an architect, I build it. But if I say: I’m a better architect than the other fellow and he gets more money than I do, and therefore I am afraid if I don’t get that job, and so on.
1:14:02 Sir, what are we talking about?
1:14:04 Q: It appears that it is the self-centred activity of thought that creates fear.
1:14:06 K: Of course.
1:14:07 Q: And time itself, the movement of time in nature, is neutral. It’s the corrupting effect of the mind.
1:14:14 K: Sir, let me put it differently: the self-centred thought creates fear.
1:14:28 Right? You haven’t moved any further. We are repeating the same thing over and over again. I want to move. You must feel that you want to move into the... see if you can be free of fear.
1:14:47 And to do that, sir, you have to ask this very question, not ending of thought about going home or doing this or that, but with regard to fear.
1:15:02 Can thought, which creates fear, can that thought come to an end?
1:15:12 Not the thought of your job. Your job needs thinking, to go home needs thinking, to say: that’s my wife – you need to think.
1:15:25 That’s my brother – you need to think. There is a recognition process going on, which may be rapid, and says: it’s my brother – but it’s a process of thinking.
1:15:36 So we are only concerned with thought which creates fear. I am not generalising thought as a whole, which is a totally different problem. Right, sir?
1:15:47 Q: Yes.
1:15:49 K: So let’s proceed.
1:15:52 Q: It embodies a state of anxiety. Fear is a state of anxiety.
1:16:14 K: Fear is anxiety.
1:16:39 Fear is not having power, fear is not having a good position – so many forms of fear.
1:16:47 But we are talking about the root of all fear, not just one fear.
1:16:57 We have come to that point of the root of fear, which is thought and time.
1:17:04 So can thought – please listen to this carefully for two minutes – I’ve been to the dentist, it has caused great deal of pain and that is registered in the brain, and fear says: don’t let it happen again tomorrow, pain.
1:17:34 You understand that? So I’m asking something quite different – please, kindly pay a little attention to it – which is, you go to the dentist, sit in a chair, drill, pain, and not register it.
1:18:00 Have you understood what I said? No, no, please, sir, you’ve understood it verbally. I’m asking you a question.
1:18:08 Q: It is an automatic process.
1:18:11 K: Sir, sir, there is nothing automatic. Just go into it little bit, sir, don’t say these… I keep to the dentist because most of us have been, some kind of a toothache, sometime or other.
1:18:29 You go, you have a toothache, you remember the pain, the pain is registered in the mind.
1:18:40 And I’m saying: is it possible to have that pain and not register it?
1:18:48 You understand, sir?
1:18:52 Q: [Inaudible] K: What is that? Wait a minute, ask him what he wants, sir.
1:19:05 Q: He says better go to a better dentist.
1:19:23 [Pause] K: There is no better dentist, they are the only dentist.
1:19:32 [Laughs] Sir, for God’s sake, what is this?
1:19:40 So, thought-time creates fear. That is the truth. And next thing is in exploration, I ask myself: why does thought interfere with pain?
1:20:02 You understand? That is, pain is conveyed through the brain and the brain says: that’s pain, do something.
1:20:13 But why does the brain retain the memory of it? You understand? You follow what I’m saying? Why? I’ll answer it presently. You think with me – why?
1:20:31 Q: For future security.
1:20:37 K: That’s right. Which means what? I remember meeting that tiger, a dangerous animal – there I must recognise a tiger – right?
1:21:00 – otherwise I’ll be mauled, or whatever happens.
1:21:07 But why should I bear, remember, register, a psychological pain?
1:21:16 Fear is psychological. Right? You’re following this?
1:21:19 Q: Yes.
1:21:20 K: Think it out, don’t answer me yet, sir. We’ve gone very far. Don’t quickly stop. I register the tiger, the cobra, a dangerous animal.
1:21:38 That’s a natural, healthy reaction.
1:21:43 Q: [Inaudible] K: Let me finish. Let me kindly finish, sir, if you don’t mind. It’s a natural, healthy reaction to recoil from a precipice. Unless I am slightly neurotic, unbalanced, then precipice is a great attraction.
1:22:09 So, it’s natural, healthy to react to danger, physical danger.
1:22:16 Right? Now, there is psychological pain, which is fear.
1:22:25 Now, that fear is caused by thought. Thought says: you’ve had pain before and you might get it tomorrow – therefore there is fear.
1:22:39 You understand? So, can thought end creating fear – you understand?
1:22:50 – projecting fear tomorrow? You understood this, sir? You were there at our discussion at that house, so would you kindly tell me so we can have a dialogue?
1:23:06 Q: It is a good thought about a tiger.
1:23:16 K: Sir, we are talking about not good thought but about thought as fear.
1:23:20 Q: You could say that the registering of the fact of the fear and the death of the fear is neutral until thought operates on it.
1:23:30 K: Yes, sir. But much more important, please find out why the mind registers fear.
1:23:45 You understand my question? You understand, sir? Which is, I have had fear yesterday, psychologically, because I told a lie and if somebody else discovered it, and I’m frightened.
1:24:06 And that has been registered. And I ask myself: why does it register? I have lied, yes – finished. You understand? Why am I afraid of it? It is true that I have lied. End it. But the moment you say: I have lied, I justify it, rationalise it, make it – you follow?
1:24:36 – then I perpetuate the memory of lying. I don’t know if you follow all this.
1:24:46 So can I, can thought not project time, the future, or the past?
1:24:58 You understand what I’m saying? Remember the pain of the dentist of last week – not remember it, say: that pain is over.
1:25:08 I will tell you something. I sat for four hours in the dentist’s chair in London. And he’s supposed to be a very good dentist, one of the best.
1:25:23 And, literally, sir, I am not exaggerating, that was the end of it.
1:25:31 I walked out without any sense of registration.
1:25:40 You understand what I’m saying, sir? Can you do that? That is, let’s take a present example. You see a beautiful tree, a lovely sunset, light on the clouds, marvellous clouds, see them, enjoy them, look at the beauty of it – finished – and not say: well, I must remember that, I want to photograph it, I must come to the same place tomorrow and look at it.
1:26:14 You follow what I’m saying? I wonder if you do. Which means, sir, can you be so attentive at the moment of pain so that it is not registered?
1:26:36 That means, attention prevents registration. You try it, sirs, don’t accept what the speaker is saying, that has no value.
1:26:49 But if you say: there’s something in this, that can I attend so completely when there is... as the fear arises?
1:26:57 You understand?
1:26:59 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, look, you have flattered or insulted.
1:27:10 Right? Now, at the moment of flattery or insult be tremendously alert and you won’t register it at all.
1:27:23 You do it. So there is an ending of fear without a single effort.
1:27:32 Now, that of course you won’t.
1:27:37 Q: You are really saying that this process of registering is the process of spiritual death.
1:27:48 K: I haven’t used the ‘spiritual death,’ I haven’t used the word ‘spiritual’. I’ve just said: the mind is registering every experience, conscious or unconscious – it is registering.
1:28:01 And this registering, like a computer – I won’t go into the computer business – it is registering – pain, pleasure, reward, punishment, and all the rest of it.
1:28:14 We’re talking of fear. Fear is a form of registration by thought in the mind, says: yes, I’ve had fear – and projects in time, tomorrow: I hope I will not have fear.
1:28:32 Now, to be attentive at the moment fear arises and you see immediately the cause of it.
1:28:45 And the very perception is the ending of fear. That means your mind must be astonishingly alive, not mechanical: I’ve had fear, my father’s had fear, why do we bother with it?
1:29:02 Let’s go on with fear. [Laughs] Sir, we all want security, psychological security – you understand? – and to continue with fear is another form of security, which dulls the mind, dulls our life, makes our life so ugly.
1:29:32 And in investigating together we see that it can end.
1:29:43 Q: Why the ego, or me or a centre, comes into being? And has it any limited role to play in life, just as thought has a limited role in the material world, or whether it has no place at all?
1:30:01 K: That’s a very complex question, like fear. It’s half past five, aren’t you...?
1:30:14 Q: Is there a division between dying to our psychological memory and retaining practical memory?
1:30:24 K: You can’t die to practical memory, otherwise you’ll have… you’ll be dead, physically. Sir, what are these questions?
1:30:32 Q: Sir, is our daily [inaudible] designed by nature for a carnivorous or a vegetarian diet?
1:30:41 [Inaudible] K: Finished.
1:31:29 [Laughter] Q: Sir, can meditation stop this registering?
1:31:49 K: Sir, again, meditation, you have to understand it very, very deeply, what it means.
1:32:01 As long as there is measurement – I’ll say it very briefly; I’ll expand it Saturday and Sunday – as long as the mind is measuring, meditation becomes rather immature.
1:32:21 That is, measure – you understand? – psychological – I have moved from this to that to that to that. That’s no meditation. Ending of measurement is the beginning of real meditation. If you want to; if you don’t, if you want to carry on, carry on – I’m not urging you to do anything.
1:32:46 Q: Krishnaji, you’ve reported to the press that the teacher does not believe in God. Is the report incorrect of the press interview the teacher gave?
1:32:56 K: Sir...
1:32:57 Q: My question is...
1:33:01 K: Sir, sir, have you understood the nature of fear? [Laughter] Don’t laugh, sir, please. This is not an insult, I’m not insulting you, sir. No, please, sir, I’m not... I don’t know why they laugh. Have you understood? We spent a great deal of time into the nature of fear and enquiring into it.
1:33:29 How far have you gone into it?
1:33:36 This question of whether I believe in God or not is so totally irrelevant, because I said now, I said at all the talks: I have no belief about anything.
1:33:52 You don’t believe sun rises and sun sets – right? – there it is. You see it every day. It’s only we have belief in something of which we don’t know, and that belief, we hope to have in that belief some security – that’s all.
1:34:17 I believe, one believes in God, one believes... I’m so surprised, sir, in a Buddhist country – Buddha never talked about God.
1:34:27 I’m so surprised you get so excited about God.
1:34:32 Q: Is there or is there not something of importance... [inaudible] K: Sorry, sir, I won’t answer that question because that requires a great deal of enquiry.
1:34:43 I’m willing to enquire with you and go into it to the very end, but that requires...
1:34:52 We’ve talked for an hour and a half, I think it’s enough. Right, sir?