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GS62DSG1 - A passion which has no motive
Gstaad, Switzerland - 14 August 1962
Discussion with Small Group 1



0:01 This is the first small group discussion with J. Krishnamurti, in Gstaad, 1962.
0:12 Krishnamurti: Sit higher up? Many: Yes.
0:23 K: Is that better? (Laughter) Many: (Inaudible).
0:55 K: Some of us thought it would be a good idea to have a series of discussions - that will be eight discussions, won’t it: Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday - eight discussions. After the gathering, after these big meetings, some of us thought it would be a good idea to have a smaller group and to discuss in detail, go into things, if we can, sharply and deeply. And I would suggest that those who are here should come to the eight talks, eight discussions, or not at all.
1:46 You want me to be still higher? Somebody’s craning their necks. No, I think it’s all right, isn’t it?
2:03 Many: (Inaudible).
2:06 K: Bene. I don’t know how you feel what it means to discuss, to each one of us. I have done these discussions all over the world, in India, California, in New York, in different places. And you may have some new ideas or a new way of discussing. I would like to hear that, how you would approach a discussion, with a group like this, a series of discussions, how would you tackle it? You see, I thought that there are not too many of us, each one of us - and I mean each one of us: not few remain silent, the rest talk - each one of us should discuss, should expose themselves, if they can, their force, their feelings.
3:26 And I thought it would be a good idea if we could take one subject – it doesn’t matter what it is - and go into it each morning completely and thoroughly. Would that... what do you say? I’m not going to work; we’re all going to work. So would that be all right?
3:57 Do you think that would be a good way to approach these discussions?
4:04 Questioner: I think so, Krishnaji… (inaudible).
4:09 K: That we all take part, not just a few of us, and that we take a subject, which we all agree, each morning, and go into it as thoroughly as possible, all round, and extensively, and see what happens. Would that be all right?
4:36 Many: (Inaudible).
4:39 K: So which shall we start? What shall we start this morning with?
4:43 Q: I can make a suggestion if you wish, and that is, let us start very close to the beginning, the subject of choiceless awareness, what that means in actual...
4:55 K: I don’t know what the others want. You follow?
4:59 Q: (Inaudible)… negative approach… (inaudible). Doris Pratt: We could also take the subject of fear, which is very important.
5:17 Marcelle de Manziarly: We could always take the subject of flame, passion, to start.
5:55 Q: (Inaudible).
5:56 Q: Start with fear.
5:57 K: I think what Marcelle… I mean, de Manziarly suggests might be a good idea. I’m just… please, I’m not... I’m just suggesting that we should take this question of passion, and if we understand that, perhaps we can take fear, negative awareness, and with that sense of passion approach each subject. You follow what I mean? Would that be all right?
6:28 Many: Yes.
6:30 K: Do you all agree to that? Yes? Many: Yes.
6:35 K: Not agree; you know what I mean. It’s not a date.
6:52 (Pause) MM: Is this passion for something or is it a state of being?
7:22 (Pause) K: No, you see, when you put a question like that: is it a state of being, is it a... for something, I think we have not... Please, I’m talking most respectfully; that‘s understood. I don’t have to say, ‘Please forgive me,’ if I’m polite, if I’m respectful and all the rest of it; let’s cut all that out and let’s be simple. When you put a question like that, aren’t you asking for an answer which will indicate one thing or the other? You see - now, wait a minute - how I would tackle it is entirely different. I would like to put it to you, and you will see.
8:53 What is this passion? I’d like to find out. I’d like to find out what is its nature, what is its quality, what is its depth and height and - you know? - intensity. I’d like to find out, not be told. You follow? When you put a question: ‘Is it a state or is it something else?’ you’ve put me... you want to find an answer, not... If somebody tells me -you’ve no seat, sir? - if somebody says to me, ‘What is passion?’ and…
9:44 There is sexual passion, there is passion for something, passion for mountaineering, passion for music - you follow? - there’s passion. And that doesn’t satisfy me. That’s only for something, isn’t it? I don’t know if I’m jumping into it too quickly.
10:04 Many: No.
10:05 K: But I need to… and I want to find out if there is a passion, an intensity, a flame, a burning away of something, burning, without this form, without this motive, without this end.
10:20 MM: That’s just the difficulty.
10:22 K: Wait a minute; wait a minute. You follow what I mean?
10:32 Signor

C: But what is the difference between desire and passion in this case? One...
10:41 K: I mean, desire for something, intensified, fanatical, can become passion. I feel I must save your soul and I become passionate about it; I’ll burn you, I’ll do anything to save you. Is that what we’re talking about, passion? Is that what we mean?
11:10 Q: No.
11:11 K: A desire, intensified desire? You see, when we intensify one desire and make it into a passion, it comes to an end. When that desire is over I pick up another desire. I don’t know if I’m conveying it.
11:25 Q: Is not that kind of passion a kind of self-enjoyment?
11:34 K: Yes. There is not only self-enjoyment, there is the do-goodness involved in it - you know what I mean? - the feeling of martyrdom - you know? - the whole cycle of it.
11:53 Q: Is this the same thing as hunger which you spoke of?
12:01 K: No. Is it hunger, is it desire, is it a sense of an urge, an urge to fulfil, an urge to paint, an urge to write, an urge to talk - you follow? - that gives a great deal of intensity? If there is a strong urge it does produce an intensity.
12:23 Q: I feel it’s more of a feeling, a complete feeling.
12:31 K: No, don’t jump to what you feel, sir. We’re not trying to express what you and I feel. We want to find out what is this thing called passion, without which I don’t see you can do anything. You see, I want to find out if it is possible to be free from fear, and to find out I must be passionate about it. You follow?
13:01 Q: Is it a beginning of giving your whole attention?
13:12 K: You see, you are trying to find a way to it. You follow what I…? Saying, ‘Is it...
13:22 if I go though that door will I get it?’ Will...? You… I’m... Carlo Suarez: Aren’t we trying to find out if there is any relationship possible between that and I, and the me, and the way? You see, we’re trying to find out if there is any relationship...
13:44 K: Ah, that’s too complicated.
13:45 CS: …between that passion and ourselves.
13:46 K: Ah, that’s too complicated.
13:48 CS: It seems to be very simple…
13:50 K: No, no. Ah…
13:51 CS: We’re trying to find out how to approach...
13:55 K: Sir, just a minute, sir. (Inaudible)… she put a question which is: ‘I’d like to find…’ - what was it? - ‘What is this passion?’ she says to me. You are complicating by saying, ‘What is the relationship between me and that passion?’ And she says, another says, ‘Is it desire, is it an intuitive urge, this or that?’ Aren’t you rather complicating the whole thing? We will complicate it a little later.
14:28 CS: It is complicated.
14:29 K: Ah, I don’t think it is.
14:32 MM: Isn’t it the identification with what you love?
14:36 K: Ah, no. You see, the moment you identify yourself with what you love it’s not love.
14:43 MM: No, but it can be a kind of a passion.
14:44 K: Ah no, it can’t be because there is a contradiction between you and what you want to do. I don’t know if I…
15:01 MM: Yes.
15:04 K: Suarez says, ‘The relationship between me and that state which is passion.’ What is that relationship?
15:17 CS: I wonder if there is any at all.
15:25 K: Ah, that doesn’t concern me at all. I say, ‘Look, I want to be in this state.’ Not want - you understand? That’s a facon de… - I must capture it, I must enter into it, I must completely submerge, like in a pool I must go into it. I don’t want to spin all round with words, and ‘Is this, is that, is that?’ And then if I’m in it, I find out whether it’s right or wrong - you follow what I mean? - whether it’s the real stuff or the wrong stuff. I don’t know if I… Am I making it too simple or…?
16:14 Q: Is there any particular circumstance under which it arises?
16:19 K: Sir, look, you know what ordinary passion is, don’t you? Sexual passion; when you get terribly patriotic about your country, or violently identify with communism, with Catholicism, with something, you get tremendously worked up, no?
16:51 MM: I don’t think we even know that completely.
16:55 K: No?
16:56 MM: No.
16:57 K: At least you know the symptoms of it. You know the marginal feelings of it. No?
17:07 MM: You get it in wild things like in colère.
17:12 K: Yes, yes.
17:13 MM: How do you say that in English?
17:14 K: Anger… (inaudible). Many: (Inaudible).
17:16 K: Yes. Wait a minute. We do know this feeling of sexual passion, passion for one’s country or an idea, or committed to something which arouses a passion. No?
17:28 CS: Yes, as Mar says, this is identification.
17:32 K: I’m saying: we do know all these. I am intensely interested in music, compose, play.
17:43 We know the symptoms of a series of passions - right? - we all know that. But is that what we are talking about?
17:57 MM: No, I don’t think so.
17:58 K: Now, wait a minute. If it is not, what is wrong with the things that we have felt?
18:07 You follow what I mean?
18:08 MM: But why do you get it in anger when you don’t get it somewhere else?
18:12 K: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We’ll come to that a little later. In all that, being committed to church, being committed to communism, being committed to Catholicism - you know?
18:33 - being… committed, it awakens a certain sense of intensity which might be called passion. We know some of it, and we say it is not quite that. Why?
18:48 Q: Because it is not something in relation with a particular field.
18:58 K: That is what? It means that those marginal, slight passion is for something, isn’t it?
19:11 And the speaker said, ‘Passion which is not for something,’ and that is our battle - you follow? - that is our misunderstanding. We know passion for something, and the speaker says, ‘That is…. in that there is a distraction, there is an identification, there is a conflict, there is a distraction, and all the rest of it; that’s not real passion. The real passion is a state in which there is no motive. It is not for something.’ Right?’ Q: But I only know that other state.
19:48 K: The other ones we know, this we do not know.
19:52 MM: Yes, but it’s aroused by something.
19:56 K: I question it. Wait. You say it is aroused, so it is built up, aroused. Is it? You see, we ought really to stick to one thing, if I may say so. The passion, the intensity, the desire, the volition, the determination, identification, commitment, which all involves for something. Now, we know all that. Is it possible, knowing all that, to see if there is a state which is not for something. You follow? I don’t know if I’m…
20:35 Q: Yes.
20:36 Q: Yes.
20:37 K: And then proceed and not say, ‘This is…’ contradict each other. You know what I mean?
20:44 Q: Yes.
20:45 CS: In this case, sir, if it is not a goal, if it is not a product of desire, it is a by-product to which we may arrive through something else, which we eventually may arrive, but we cannot reach it, we cannot go to it, we cannot expect it.
21:04 K: I understand, sir. You discuss, we all discuss, don’t… (inaudible).
21:10 CS: A while ago, you said, ‘I want this.’ I question that it is possible to want it because that… (inaudible).
21:16 K: Please… (inaudible).
21:17 CS: Wait; wait a moment, please. I think that if I see the… as you were mentioning, the negative approach is the only way out of those passions with an object; if we see that it doesn’t lead us anywhere.
21:36 K: May I put it round the other way, sir? It’s like this: if the speaker hadn’t said ‘passion without purpose’ would you yourself have found it out?
21:50 Q: Probably not.
21:51 CS: Certainly not.
21:53 K: Now, why?
21:54 CS: Because we’ve always advocated… (inaudible).
21:57 K: No, no, no, stop; not ‘because.’ Why didn’t you find it out? I think… You follow what I’m saying? You are now trying, if I may point out, trying to adjust or find out what the speaker is talking about. You follow what I mean? You don’t say, ‘Now, by Jove, why didn’t I find it out? If that is true, why… what was missing in me that I couldn’t capture it?’ Q: Exactly… (inaudible).
22:30 Q: I think it’s the separation we make.
22:33 K: Ah, no. You see, don’t… Sir, listen to my question. You’re going on with your question. I hear somebody say, ‘There is a passion which has no object, which has no cause.’ Now, first of all, when a statement of that kind is made, I say, ‘By Jove, is there such a state which has no cause, which has no purpose?’ You follow? First I must find that out.
23:11 MM: I think there is in joy K: Ah, no, don’t introduce examples. I don’t know… - you follow? - then we get carried off on detail. Here is a man who says, ‘Passion without cause and without a result, a purpose.’ Now, is it possible in our life to have something which is without cause, without a purpose?
23:40 Until I find that out, it’s no good asking any other question. You follow what I mean?
23:47 Q: Quite. Doctor Munro: Is this… I’m wondering whether this passion may be in some way related to normal passion, but in a normal passion there is an impulse, but that’s very quickly twisted and turned. But if one remains with it, if one could, I’m wondering whether that’s...
24:15 K: No, Doctor Munro, Doctor Munro, I don’t mean that. Look, sir, you are a biochemist, a PhD, and all that. Now, you make a statement and I want to find out if what you say is true. You follow?
24:30 DM: Yes.
24:31 K: Not I don’t accept or reject…
24:33 DM: Yes; yes.
24:34 K: I want to find out if there is a state where there is no cause and no purpose, no effect. I don’t know if I… I’m sorry to labour. I may be wrong. I just want to find out. Is there?
24:47 Q: I believe so.
24:48 K: Ah?
24:49 Q: I believe… (inaudible).
24:50 K: Now… No, sir, no…
24:52 Q: It’s a divine state.
24:53 K: Ah, no, no. Not ‘believe’ - then you’re off; then...
24:58 Q: (Inaudible).
24:59 K: No, wait a minute. If you say, ‘I believe’, then you are lost. ‘It’s a divine state’ - I don’t know, but I want to find out in my life, sir, if there is anything which has no cause. If I love my wife, my children, anything without cause, or is everything with a cause?
25:22 Q: Do you mean without motive?
25:24 K: Motive, all that: cause, motives.
25:26 Q: It’s a divine state.
25:28 K: Ah, I don’t know that. It’s no good stating it’s a divine state, sir, but I don’t know. I don’t know in my life anything which has… any activity, any action, any thought, any feeling which has not a motive.
25:47 DM: Doesn’t the very knowing stop it?
25:51 K: No. First let me put the question to myself.
25:54 DM: I mean, one… I feel that there are times when this is so, but as soon as one knows it, it isn’t.
26:04 K: That… later on, Doctor, come to it a little later on. First I want to see in my life if there is something without a cause.
26:12 MM: I could say yes.
26:13 K: What is it?
26:14 MM: A certain experience which happens...
26:16 K: Ah, wait, wait. No.
26:18 MM: …without any… (inaudible).
26:19 K: Ah, that may be because...
26:21 MM: But not this passion; it’s something else.
26:24 K: No, wait, wait, wait. If you say there are experiences which have no cause, I say no, impossible, because every experience is a reaction. We won’t enter into… You see…
26:36 MM: But you must feel something, or there is nothing. I don’t understand how one can...
26:43 K: You see, I...
26:47 MM: Something happens - all right. At the moment it is like this, then you remember it’s different, but this is a fact. It is a fact. So if we talk about it, it’s already all false because we are not at the moment. That is the difficulty. So you can feel it for… once you felt that, and you don’t feel it for this passion or flame, but...
27:14 K: What is the question we are discussing? We want to find out, or experience, or be in that state which is passion without a motive - right? - without a cause, without a purpose.
27:35 It sounds so fantastically nonsensical.
27:37 Q: You can experience this passion in relation to things.
27:42 K: Ah… That’s it, but the speaker says there is no such... that‘s not passion because then in that passion there is always a shadow. You follow?
27:51 Q: Yes, but that occurs if you’re trying to hold onto that.
27:54 K: Hold on but you...
27:55 Q: But if you’re not trying to hold on...
27:57 K: But then it’s not… then you are still a purpose, and then there is a contradiction: ‘You must not hold on.’ You follow?
28:06 Q: But you can’t have a passion unrelated to nothing, can you?
28:13 K: I say it is possible, and that’s the battle. You follow what I mean?
28:22 Q: But if you were, say, standing here, you know there’s a tree outside but you don’t hold on to that fact. I mean, I don’t have any particular passion for that tree, but it has some kind of...
28:38 K: Yes sir; yes sir.
28:40 Q: I mean, it’s there. I mean, you couldn’t separate this passion, surely, from everything else in existence.
28:49 K: I think one should, because, you see, what her question was, if one really goes into it, passion which has no motive, unrelated, something in itself without a cause. I think if we could pursue that to the end, I think we will find that it is related to creation which is without cause, and… (inaudible) is divine, etc., etc.
29:23 Q: Yes, but that creation takes place in relation to.
29:25 K: Ah, never… (inaudible).
29:26 Q: I don’t mean in the sense of identifying yourself… (inaudible).
29:31 K: Ah, no, no, no, it couldn’t. I mean… Ah, that’s it, you see?
29:43 Q: Ah, that’s it. (Pause) K: You see, I feel the passion and creation are related. You follow?
29:50 Q: Yes.
29:51 K: And this passion which is without cause, if I understood and lived it… - you know?
29:58 - in it, perhaps then I will tackle fear, all the rest of it, and feel this thing, which…
30:07 creation without cause. After all, God - quote - must be without cause.
30:14 Q: Yes.
30:15 K: It would be too silly if that old bird had cause. (Laughter) MM: Yes, but how do we know it?
30:26 K: Ah, we can see logically… (inaudible)…
30:29 MM: (Inaudible).
30:30 K: …because that cause implies a reaction.
30:35 Q: Someone to make good.
30:45 K: Some… yes, all the process… (inaudible).
30:54 Q: I am afraid we don’t put simply and clearly the question, only the question to answers.
30:59 K: Sir, she has put the question fairly clearly: What is this passion without cause? Is there such thing? When I know, she says, where every action, every thought, every feeling, every identification has a cause. What the dickens are you talking about?
31:19 Q: That’s the state of inquiry.
31:22 K: Ah?
31:24 Q: It’s the inquiry.
31:26 K: Yes. She starts with that.
31:29 Q: But the passion is the inquiry.
31:31 K: But is that inquiry without a motive? If I inquire because I want to achieve, because I want to get, I want...
31:43 Q: No, you inquire because you’re interested, because...
31:45 K: Ah… Now, wait a minute. You see, when you use the word interested, in something.
31:48 Q: Or in the passion.
31:50 K: Ah, you see, then you’re lost. You have a motive.
31:54 Q: But then I live in fear, no?
31:58 Q: (Inaudible).
31:59 Q: When I live in fear, we can see, no? I have right now the feeling that I feel much that my friends do or my friends are not here and I was sad, very sad about this. And I think it is we’re very close, no? It’s this feeling.
32:22 K: Yes, I understand, but you see...
32:25 Q: Could that be a state of intense attention?
32:31 K: Yes, sir. We change the word…
32:34 Q: (Inaudible).
32:35 K: …but if you have attention with a cause then it’s no attention.
32:38 Q: (Inaudible).
32:39 K: So the thing to do, sir, as I see it - I may be wrong - to find out for ourselves if there is... if we can eliminate in ourselves all causation. Oh, you see, it’s an immensely difficult thing we’re talking about.
33:04 MM: We talk about being creation.
33:07 K: Ah, that is… (inaudible) that is a further stage; don’t bother with that.
33:14 Q: Attention...
33:16 K: I suddenly had a feeling, Mar, suddenly had a feeling, passion and that thing are related.
33:20 MM: Not related.
33:21 K: Not… they are… it is a continuous movement; it has this quality in the other. Leave that for the moment. You follow? I want to find out for myself, in myself, if there is…
33:39 - ah, we are getting near it; go on - if there is any action, any idea, any feeling which is without cause.
33:51 Q: That very question is putting a question...
33:54 K: Ah, no, no, no, no. I just want to see; I just want to find out. There is no...
34:01 Q: You see, that very wanting to see it, isn’t that…?
34:03 K: No, no, I don’t… You see, I must use words, then it becomes… Look sir, you tell me there is a state of passion without cause - right? - and I say, ‘By Jove, I don’t know anything about it, but there may be or may not be, but I want to see in myself if there is… just to see, as I see that thing without cause’ - I’m using the word see without cause - if there is... if all action, all… everything which I do has a motive, has a cause. If I find everything has a cause, everything that I do has a cause, a commitment, an identification, a goal, etc. Now, what happens when I come to that point? You follow what I’m saying, sir? Now, let’s proceed now.
35:10 I find I love my wife because, ? Right? I go to the office because. I come here because.
35:19 Everything I do is… there is a motive behind it.
35:24 Q: (Inaudible)… the motive behind the passion in anger.
35:29 K: Ah, no, I don’t want to bring anger into it yet. Please, just…
35:35 Q: Because… (inaudible).
35:36 K: Let’s talk abstractly for the moment and then come back to detail later.
35:40 Q: But this seems to me the problem that you’ve asked this question ‘Is there the state of passion without motive?’ But in asking that question haven’t you got a…?
35:51 K: No, no, no. I just want to see, sir, if everything I do has a motive. I just want to find out. There is no motive behind that. I just want to see.
36:03 Q: Well, if there’s no motive behind that, that is the… (inaudible).
36:05 K: Wait, wait, wait, wait; go slowly. That’s what I’m trying to get at. You follow? First of all, I recognize that everything I do has a motive. Right? What happens?
36:23 Q: Everything I do.
36:25 K: I do, think, feel, not feel. Right?
36:30 Q: Yes.
36:31 K: Now, what happens when I realise that everything I do, don’t do, feel, don’t feel, has a cause, has a motive? Don’t say it’s selfish, it is godly, it is divine - I don’t know any of that. It has a cause. Right? Now, what is the state of the mind which has discovered this? You’re following what I’m talking about?
37:05 Q: Is that silence?
37:07 K: Ah, ah, ah… You see, you’re all wrong; you’re not… (Laughter) K: You see, you’re not discussing with me. You’re just trying to capture a state.
37:22 Q: (Inaudible).
37:28 Q: You just see it.
37:32 K: No, señora, to hell… - I’m sorry - I don’t... you’re missing my whole point. Look, I thought I loved my wife, and I find, by Jove, there’s a cause behind it. Right?
37:50 I want to educate my children and I see what is involved in that. I go to church, become a Catholic, or caught by the priest, and I see what is involved in it. Go to the… - you know? - I recognise that whatever I do has a motive behind it, whether I join the communist party, become a Catholic, come here, go to the mountain, or everything I do, don’t do, think, don’t think. First of all, it’s a tremendous realization - you follow? - my seeking God is just another… You follow? So I’ve suddenly realised whatever I do has a motive, which I didn’t realise before.
38:43 Q: But you can’t go any further than that.
38:47 K: Wait, wait; wait sir, wait, wait. I don’t want to go further. First let me see that.
38:53 Q: Your mind is a void.
38:55 K: Ah… You are all so keen to get voids and… No, you don’t go step by step, sir, that’s where the mistake we are doing. Millimetre by millimetre, then you will get into it, then it will be logical, it’ll be a sane. To say, ‘It’ll be silence,’ it has no meaning.
39:16 Q: Sir, why don’t we discuss why do we have always a motive?
39:25 K: Because my wife gives me...
39:28 Q: I think that someone has motive when he wants to fulfil himself, when he’s empty.
39:34 K: That’s… it’s all involved in it. I find comfort with my wife, she gives me food, sex, children, identification with children, a… We know all the ‘whys’. I go to church because there is a certain sense of inward security, emotional… - you know? - instead of going to the cinema I go to church, and I feel extraordinarily elated and I… next day go there again because I feel stimulated. We know the causes; that’s not the point.
40:11 Now, I see in myself that there’s a tremendous well of motive. That’s all. And what does that do to… that experience, that sense of being aware, that, by Jove, everything I do or don’t do has a motive? What does that experience of recognition do to the mind?
40:53 You follow what I mean?
40:56 Q: It should produce humility.
41:00 K: Oh good God, no, I hate… I don’t want to produce anything. I’m sorry. You see, you’re… Look sir, I really... it’s a tremendous revelation to me to experience something which is real: that everything has a motive. It brings a tremendous feeling, doesn’t it? I don’t know how...
41:36 MM: Yes, but...
41:38 K: Ah?
41:39 MM: The experiment that you are the brain itself.
41:41 K: Ah, no, no.
41:42 MM: The brain itself is this… (inaudible)…
41:43 K: No, Mar, wait.
41:44 MM: …then you say all right.
41:47 K: No, ecoute. No, it’s not...
41:51 MM: C’est la verité. .
41:54 K: No, but you… that’s not my point. Look, doesn’t this experience - we’ll call it experience - give you a shock, a feeling of ‘My God, what a strange thing that whatever I do has a motive’?
42:13 Q: (Inaudible).
42:14 Q: No, it doesn’t, that’s the trouble.
42:15 K: Ah? (Laughter) Q: It doesn’t.
42:18 Q: It doesn’t.
42:19 K: Why?
42:20 Q: (Inaudible)… what’s wrong with that?
42:21 Q: (Inaudible).
42:22 K: Ah, wait, wait. I’m coming to that.
42:24 DM: It doesn’t give me a shock. That’s the whole trouble.
42:27 K: Why? And this gentleman says...
42:28 Q: What’s wrong with that?
42:30 K: What’s wrong with not having a shock.
42:31 Q: What’s wrong with having a motive?
42:32 K: What’s wrong with having a motive. I don’t say it is a wrong, or if it is wrong it will give you a shock. I don’t say... You follow what I mean?
42:43 DM: No sir, but you said if you see that everything you do has a motive, doesn’t it give you a… (inaudible).
42:48 K: No, what does it do - I’ll introduce… - what does it do to you? What it feels: is it a shock, is it a pleasure, is it saying, ‘By Jove, what’s wrong? Why should I be…
42:57 (inaudible)?’ Q: No, it gives an impression of something quite strange. Instead of...
43:04 K: Now… yes, quite right, it gives you a... Now, go into it, sir.
43:07 Q: It would alter the whole… (inaudible).
43:12 Q: It alters the whole picture.
43:16 Q: It would alter the whole situation.
43:19 K: Doesn’t…? What does it...? What do you…? What happens, sir, when you realise everything has a motive?
43:25 Q: Well, you stop.
43:26 Q: (Inaudible).
43:27 K: Ah?
43:28 Q: (Inaudible).
43:29 K: No, no, no. You’re all... You’re not...
43:32 Q: Then you are free.
43:34 K: No, senora.
43:36 Q: It makes you stop for the moment.
43:40 Q: No, no.
43:41 K: It may make you stop, but what does it reveal to you?
43:46 Q: (Inaudible)… how could I not see this for so many time, for so long time?
43:55 K: All right, go beyond that wonder. Yes, I say, ‘By Jove, what a damn fool I’ve been. I never saw this.’ (Inaudible)… bien, all right.
44:04 MM: Well, I can’t say I see it clearly, but I feel it’s pointing towards losing yourself, the feeling of yourself.
44:11 K: You see… No, you’re missing the whole... You’re going much too fast. You’re not going step by step.
44:21 Q: You’re so fascinated that you have to; you wonder what comes next.
44:27 K: I’m not. You see, that’s what I’m talking... I am not concerned. I see the fact - the fact - that whatever I do or don’t do has a motive.
44:40 Q: A motive of self-interest.
44:44 K: Self-interest - put it that way. Self-interest, protection - you know? - we know now. When I realise that, what have I discovered?
44:58 Q: That I am entirely egocentric.
45:00 K: Yes, yes sir, but what have I discovered? I want go a little... Yes, egocentric, all right - what?
45:05 MM: My limits.
45:07 K: Which means what? I’ve found a limit.
45:09 MM: (Inaudible).
45:10 K: Go slow, Mima.
45:11 MM: I’m limited like this, well, all right.
45:13 K: Go slow, Mima; ah, go slow, step… You see, you’re not willing to go slow.
45:22 MM: But it’s going slowly to say that one sees one’s limits.
45:28 K: All right. Now, what happens when I see my limit? When I’ve realised that whatever I do has a motive, what is taking place? Limit, egocentric, petty - you follow? - what is taking place? Do you say, ‘Oh, to hell with it, I’ll just carry on’?
45:55 MM: Or a kind of despair.
45:58 K: Ah….
45:59 Q: Or I . . .
46:00 K: Wait, wait. If it is despair - why? You are reacting to the fact.
46:04 Q: Yes.
46:06 K: Which means what? You’re not facing the fact; you’re merely reacting and therefore not looking. I don’t know if you… But I want to see, I want to look what is taking place, therefore it’s no despair, there is no hope; there’s no saying, ‘I must change, I must not change, what is to happen next?’ I’m watching.
46:25 Q: (Inaudible).
46:26 Q: (Inaudible)… no?
46:27 Q: A feeling of freedom, perhaps.
46:28 K: No sir; no sir. Yes, sir?
46:31 CS: In my life I’ve found that it was high time to study the motive, to have a complete distrust toward every motive.
46:41 K: Yes sir, I… Look… I think I love my wife, but I see it isn’t at all. It’s just various motives involved in it. I’ve studied and I realize it. And I’ve studied other motives, other actions, there is a motive. I say, ‘For God’s sake, how extraordinary that in my life there is nothing which hasn’t a motive.’ Q: And the motive is me all the time.
47:10 K: Ah no, no, no, no. I’m not saying it is me. I… You see, you’re all too clever.
47:23 I just want to move, senora; please follow me a little bit. Don’t try to jump to states.
47:30 I realise this thing, that all my life, my whole existence is based on motive. And I see what motive does. Do you?
47:41 Q: It makes me feel sick; had enough of it.
47:42 K: Ah, you see? You are again reacting.
47:49 MM: I’m watching.
47:51 Q: Yes, well, I am reacting.
47:55 K: (Inaudible)… no, no. All right, you react, therefore you don’t face the fact. It’s no good being sick about it. In the meantime, while I’m sick, vomiting, the thing has gone away. I want to remain with it, without reaction.
48:15 Q: Do nothing.
48:17 K: Ah, you see? I want… You see, moment you say, ‘I’ll do nothing,’ the other gentleman says, ‘I vomit, I never face, there is a void, there is a freedom, there is this, there is that,’ you’re off.
48:34 Q: I watch.
48:36 Q: We realize that we are uni-dimensional-minded.
48:39 K: Yes, sir. You see, we are indulging in words; we’re not facing the fact. The fact is everything I do has a motive.
48:54 Q: Is the mind in a state of observation?
48:59 K: Yes, señora, yes. Go slow with me, please. I’m not… I don’t want to go fast, then you get lost in words. There is this fact - fact - that whatever I do has a motive.
49:22 Then what takes place?
49:29 Q: Clearly that fact...
49:32 K: Ah?
49:33 Q: That fact acts on its own, I mean… (inaudible).
49:37 K: But you’re not allowing it to act on its own. You’re doing all kinds of things to it.
49:43 Q: Yes, indeed, but, I know... That’s the temptation: to do.
49:45 K: But you are doing it all the time. I have moved. I’m just looking at it all the time.
49:51 Q: Well, that’s all you can do then.
49:54 K: Ah, ah… How do you know that’s all you can do? Go in… wait with it. Nom d’ un chien. Be there.
50:01 Q: One stops identification - no?
50:05 Q: (Inaudible).
50:06 K: You’re not… you’re…
50:08 Q: You’re asking us a question, and from the very nature of the case of what happens, we can’t answer it in words.
50:14 K: Therefore stop answering.
50:15 Q: You can look at yourself.
50:16 Q: What?
50:18 K: Stop answering.
50:19 K: And you will see when you’ve stopped answering me, you’re looking at the fact - right? - and moment you look at the fact without trying to give an opinion about the fact, then when you answer, it’ll be the right answer. You follow what I’m saying?
50:45 Q: The fact makes the change.
50:49 K: Oh... You’re all so keen about change. I’m not. I just want to see the fact that whatever I do has a motive. I thought I’ll… - please I’ll take a very… - I thought I loved my wife, and behind that there is a motive, and therefore it’s no longer love.
51:17 Right?
51:18 MM: Yes.
51:19 Q: Then I feel like a blind man. I’m afraid to watch. I watch my steps because I know everything hurts, and I am hurt.
51:28 K: No, I... You’re going...
51:29 Q: No?
51:30 K: Sir, no sir. Please, sir, do look. You see what we’re doing now? That your mind, if I’m… - no, please sir, I’ll talk simply – (inaudible)… that your mind is incapable of remaining quietly with the fact. It’s chasing, doing, acting, answering, saying, ‘Is this right? Is this wrong? Must not, must it?’ Monsieur Fouéré: To say what… that everything I do has a motive is to say that I don’t do anything for itself.
52:30 K: No, cheri, no. Sir, look sir, Monsieur Fouéré, this morning early at seven o’clock there was a racket going on; they were drilling in that house across the road. They began at seven, or even earlier. It was a very irritating noise - you know? - zoom, zoom, you know how...
53:13 Either you go with the noise. You follow? Ah?
53:18 MF: Not completely.
53:22 K: Either you accept the noise, swallow the noise, or you resist the noise. If you resist the noise, then it gets more and more - you follow? - unbearable: you want to shout, get angry, all the rest of it. But if you let… go with it - you follow? - there is no resistance, there is no fight, there is no battle between you and the noise.
53:52 MM: It’s just nicely unpleasant.
53:54 K: It’s part of the whole process of the valley. Right? Now, wait a minute. Here is something, which is, that whatever I do or don’t do has a motive. I can’t do anything about it. That’s the first fact. I can’t do anything, that’s a fact. If I try to alter it, it’ll have a motive. Right?
54:22 Q: Yes.
54:23 K: Whatever I do about the fact will have a motive because my whole being is full of motive. So I say, ‘By Jove, I’ve found something.’ Listen to me quietly. I’ve found something. I have found something, which is, when you are faced with a fact of this kind, and you realise that you can’t do a thing about it - and you realise you can’t do anything about it - then what is taking place? You follow?
55:10 There are two statements: first, I realise the fact - right? - then I realise also that I can’t do a thing about that fact. Right? Then what happens? Don’t answer, ‘Oh, freedom, silence, and this…’ Just watch what happens.
55:44 MF: If I realize the fact plainly, I do absolutely nothing.
55:50 K: But what are you doing now?
55:51 MF: Yes.
55:52 Q: But doesn’t the fact become arduous?
55:54 K: Ah?
55:55 Q: Doesn’t the fact become very hard to stay with? I mean…
56:03 K: That’s right, sir. Why? You see, now you’re beginning to go into it.
56:15 Q: You keep running off it. I mean it’s...
56:21 K: That’s it. Now you’re discovering something. For the first time we are... I’m recognising that I cannot possibly look at the fact for a second, because next second it’s off.
56:37 Q: One practically goes to sleep. I mean, that’s...
56:46 K: Ah, no, no. Look sir, wait, wait. There is the fact. I can’t do... everything I do is with a motive, or don’t do - that’s a fact. Now, why can’t… why is the mind incapable of looking at the fact? Because it’s going back and forth about various things. Right? Why? Why is that doing it? Why is it doing this?
57:28 MM: I want to continue in that.
57:29 K: No, no lady. Why is it doing it? Watch it; watch your own mind. Why is it . . . ?
57:31 Q: Because I‘m afraid.
57:32 K: Ah?
57:33 Q: I’m afraid.
57:34 K: Afraid of what?
57:35 Q: Of this limitation which I discovered.
57:37 K: And what? Then what will you do? Run away from it?
57:41 Q: Run away from it.
57:42 K: And you run away from it. All right, that’s the answer. You follow? You run away from it. That’s all. But a man who says, ‘Look, I want to look at the fact. I’m not going to run away’ - right? – ‘I want to see.’ He has then to consider, not the fact at all, not that there is no… etc., not the fact at all, but why he’s running away. You follow what I…? The importance is then not the fact but the escape from the fact. Why does the mind escape from the fact?
58:39 Q: It’s a time-space relationship.
58:44 K: Yes sir, but why? Why is it running from a fact? I say it’s a fact, and next second I’m off.
58:53 Q: Because time and space are intrinsically tied together.
58:59 K: Yes. But that doesn’t explain. I’m still running away.
59:10 Q: Because the fact is constituted by time and space.
59:17 K: Yes sir. But what am I to do? Monsieur Precily says, ‘Look, I can’t face the fact. I don’t know... It’s too disturbing. I run away.’ Now, leave the fact alone, and I’m now considering why I’m running away.
59:43 Q: It’s intrinsic with...
59:47 K: I don’t think so.
59:49 Q: …with time and space.
59:50 K: But, sir, it’s no good repeating that to me, because I don’t know what intrinsic with time… I see the fact that I can’t… I see that I can’t look at the fact in the face, because in looking at it there are innumerable fears arise, and these fears push me away.
1:00:09 Right?
1:00:10 MM: Not only fears but real horror.
1:00:13 K: (Inaudible).
1:00:14 Q: Good enough... (inaudible).
1:00:16 MM: Because it’s the same thing with the society in all this… (inaudible).
1:00:20 K: Oh, everything is involved. That’s good enough. One movement of escape. I say why? So the fact is no longer important to me, but the escape from the fact. I don’t know if you... So I’m now considering the escape. Why am I escaping?
1:00:40 Q: It’s more comforting.
1:00:48 K: Ah? You see, Dr Kumandra, how difficult it is? Ah?
1:01:08 MM: Why do we escape to unpleasant things and not to lovely things?
1:01:15 K: That’s all escape. When you say, ‘It’s lovely, I’m going to hold on,’ it’s part of the escape.
1:01:19 Q: Yes.
1:01:20 Q: We escape because we don’t want to see.
1:01:24 K: Yes sir.
1:01:25 Q: One can’t go any further.
1:01:28 Q: My mind escapes… (inaudible).
1:01:31 K: Why should you go any further? Where would you go any further? Mary Lutyens: It’s because I identify myself with the motives.
1:01:39 K: No, you’re not... Again I have to beat you to the corner. You see, you’re not going into it, you are... Look, let me take it up again. I realise that everything I do has a motive, or don’t do, and when I realise that, what is taking place? Apparently I can’t stand it; it’s too… It’s a terrible thing to realise how petty I am - right? - how shallow I am, and therefore I can’t live with that. I run away, I do something.
1:02:30 MM: I think that if you are simple in yourself you find it very lovely.
1:02:36 K: Ah no. Ah no.
1:02:37 MM: But it is the moment what you see that you and the society is one, and then you see the horror of society, then you have that kind of despair and you run away from it.
1:02:46 K: Do, please, don’t… Stick to one thing.
1:02:48 Q: I think it needs a tremendous energy to face the fact… (inaudible).
1:02:58 K: We are doing it now; we are... I wish you would do it, and you’ll get... you will be passionate at the end of it. Not how to be… all the rest of bilge, but you’ll be there.
1:03:13 Q: Because we don’t want to accept.
1:03:24 K: All right, sir, don’t accept it. Run - you follow? - run, leave it alone. Don’t pretend. Don’t say, ‘Well, I...’ Just run, leave it. That’s what everybody is doing - you follow? - everybody is doing this. And we say, ‘That’s all right. There’s nothing wrong with it.’ You follow? But it becomes ugly, wrong, etc., when I say, ‘By Jove, I want to look at the fact and see what happens.’ And apparently you gentlemen and ladies have gathered here to look at the fact. You follow? If you say, ‘Please, I want to run,’ I say, ‘Run, leave the door open.’ MM: When the shock about this discovery, does not something remains after this shock? I don’t know what it is. I think that what one would like to run away.
1:04:47 K: I discover that I’m jealous. Now, can’t I look at that fact?
1:04:56 MM: That’s easy.
1:04:58 K: Ah?
1:04:59 MM: That’s very easy.
1:05:00 K: Ah, wait, no. In the same way, can’t I look at the fact that everything I do has a motive? All the highfalutin words of love, of consideration for my children, their education, their... It’s all tommyrot.
1:05:18 Q: Aren’t we trained to consider anything which is done for a motive is (inaudible), and therefore the moment we discover that, it’s associated immediately?
1:05:32 K: Yes sir, yes. That’s right, that’s part of the show. You follow, sir, what is taking place? One becomes terribly realistic - you follow? - and one doesn’t use words like love anymore. You follow? I want my son to be what I want him to be; hell to everything else. All this responsibility, duty, love goes down the drain.
1:06:12 Q: If you’re realistic, that doesn’t matter, does it? I mean, if you say that, you say, ‘Right, I want my son to be that’ and I admit it.
1:06:30 K: Then you are… force him, cook him, boil him.
1:06:33 Q: So at least you’re being realistic.
1:06:34 K: Absolutely; don’t fool with it. But what happens? If you are realistic and pursue that way, you’ll find out for yourself - you’re creating misery for that boy and for yourself, or that girl, because he’ll begin to hate you. You follow?
1:06:51 Q: Yes.
1:06:52 K: And then begins the whole gamut of relationship. But if you say, ‘Look, follow the arrow, I face the fact: everything I do is with a motive, all the time, then what happens to my son or daughter? How do I treat them?’ I’m realistic - you follow? - I’ve stripped myself of all hypocritical words.
1:07:29 DM: But you’re still doing it.
1:07:36 K: Ah? No. There’s something else is taking place.
1:07:49 Q: I try to justify.
1:07:56 K: Ah, that’s part of the game; justify is part of the game… you know? You know there’s motive and all the rest of that. That’s all right if you... Sir, either we go that way - you follow what I mean? - or we don’t. It’s all right going that way, what everybody is doing. Not that I want to be superior to everybody else, but that’s the way the world is: my uncles and my aunts, my wife and my children are pursuing that path. It’s all right. And so the battle of relationship is on - right? - and I don’t want to be in a battle with anybody. That’s a different matter. But you see, that’s what I mean, either you pursue that and say, ‘I must be in battle. That’s part of existence.
1:08:59 Hell to what you’re talking about,’ I understand that. But if you say, ‘Look, is there another way?’ I say yes, therefore we have to look at it - you follow? - stop running, face the fact; facing the fact that whatever I do has a motive. So I don’t...
1:09:20 the thought doesn’t run away. You follow what I mean? I don’t know if you… (Inaudible)…
1:09:28 you follow, sir?
1:09:29 DM: But once you see that there is another way, then I could understand the thought wouldn’t run away.
1:09:33 K: Wait, wait; stop that way first. (Laughter) K: You can’t see the other way if don’t stop that way.
1:09:39 DM: Yes. Yes, but you can stop that way and not see that there’s another way.
1:09:44 K: Ah… Moment you stop that way, you’ll find the other way, but you can’t find the other way running. You follow? Sir, if I’m going north, I like it and I feel it’s all right I’ll go north, but if I feel south is the right way, I’ll turn and I’ll find a way south.
1:10:15 DM: Yes, and finding a way south means staying with the fact.
1:10:18 K: That’s it.
1:10:19 DM: Which we’ve agreed is very difficult. We can see the futility of going north which is running away but...
1:10:24 K: Staying with the fact. Now, proceed: what prevents you from staying with the fact?
1:10:32 DM: Well, sir, lots of things.
1:10:38 Q: (Inaudible).
1:10:39 DM: Well, fear and all the crowded thought… (inaudible).
1:10:43 K: Ah, that’s all… (inaudible). We’ve said that.
1:10:46 Q: Unpleasant.
1:10:47 K: Unpleasant - all right. Then what will you do? Don’t make a problem; then follow the other easier way. You follow what I mean? If it is unpleasant, if it is fearful, if it is noisy, if it creates more problems, carry on the old way.
1:11:03 MM: But that’s not...
1:11:04 Q: The other thing is worse.
1:11:06 K: What?
1:11:07 DM: Then you decide, not when you come back to it.
1:11:09 K: No, not decide. If you say, ‘That is not the way,’ then what have you done?
1:11:15 Q: If you know that you’ve done that, and then run away, it’s almost impossible to see it.
1:11:20 K: You can’t run away.
1:11:23 Q: You can’t.
1:11:25 K: No, that’s... You follow what I mean?
1:11:28 DM: I mean, if you see the futility of running away, you stop running away.
1:11:31 K: That’s right, sir.
1:11:32 Q: May I say something?
1:11:34 K: Yes, sir. Don’t ask me, just say it.
1:11:38 Q: Well, can’t we see that the motive - the motive - is the becoming?
1:11:45 K: Yes sir, but what of it?
1:11:46 Q: If... (inaudible)…
1:11:47 K: Ah, not ‘if’. I don’t want to say...
1:11:49 Q: I can’t stay with the fact because I want to become.
1:11:52 K: No, that is… Sir, moment you use the word if, you’re lost.
1:11:57 Q: There is no way I can see very clearly that I want to become all the time, that’s why...
1:12:05 K: Show; that’s part of the show… (inaudible).
1:12:06 Q: That’s why I’m afraid to be with the fact.
1:12:08 K: Now, wait a minute.
1:12:09 Q: Through the fact I can become.
1:12:11 K: Now lets make a... Look, we started out asking, ‘What is this strange thing called passion without motive, without a cause?’ And I see in my life everything I do or don’t do is with a cause, and apparently it is one of the most difficult things to remain with that fact, the fact that whatever I do has a motive. It’s so obvious, this. Let me look at that fact, without saying, ‘Oh, it is terrible, it is horrible, it is belittling,’ so I realise that whatever I do, and therefore my… the meaning of words changes, doesn’t it? Seeking truth, love, God, affection - everything has gone, undergone a semantic change. No?
1:13:40 Right, sir?
1:13:42 Q: Right.
1:13:43 K: Now, wait a minute. If that change has taken place - you follow? - not ‘if’.
1:13:58 I’ve come to that point when I’m looking at the fact and therefore the words have undergone a tremendous change in my vocabulary, in my meaning, what has happened to my thinking?
1:14:14 What’s the state of my mind which has undergone a tremendous change with regard to words?
1:14:27 You follow? Are you following me?
1:14:31 MM: It’s clear.
1:14:33 K: No… No, what has happened to your mind? You said before, I say, ‘I love you darling,’ now I say, ‘By Jove…’ (Laughter) K: No, what happens? Do you see what happens to me…? Follow it. What happens? The most extraordinary thing has taken place - I don’t know if it is taking place in you - the most extraordinary thing has taken place in me, which is, I become extraordinarily aware, without a cause. You’ve got it, sir? I’ve become extraordinarily aware of a change which has been brought about without cause, because I’ve merely remained with the fact. Got it? (Pause) I think we’d better stop, don’t you? Good work this morning, ah?