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GS62DSG2 - Imitation and negative thinking
Gstaad, Switzerland - 15 August 1962
Discussion with Small Group 2



0:00 This is the second small group discussion with J. Krishnamurti, in Gstaad, 1962.
0:10 Krishnamurti: I think we went as far as we could yesterday when we discussed passion.
0:21 Do you think we have gone...? No? I wonder, sir, if we can’t come to it differently by discussing what Mr Biascoechea wanted yesterday, which was negative thinking, because I thought we came to it rather roundabout way yesterday when we talked about not escaping from the fact but looking at the fact. Can we discuss that this morning? Not that we are not...
1:06 Perhaps we’ll go into the question we discussed yesterday by discussing a little more around it rather than directly about it. You know what I mean?
1:27 Questioner: What was suggested yesterday that fear kept us from staying with the fact. Is it possible that there is something maybe even unrelated to fear that might keep us from staying with the fact?
2:14 K: Somebody asked yesterday, didn’t they, that we should discuss fear, day before…
2:18 Q: Yes.
2:19 K: …and perhaps if we discuss what is negative thinking we’ll come to that. I don’t know. I want to... Would that be all right?
2:27 Q: Yes. Marcelle de Manziarley: I always feel that the word negative is not quite appropriate because it gives the impression that you’re against something negative… (inaudible).
3:07 K: You see, how far is it possible, how deeply is it possible not to imitate? I think it’s related to what we’re going to discuss with negative thinking. Not to conform - not in the sense not to imitate as a reaction and therefore... but could we discuss that thing, question, how deeply does this imitative process go on? And as long as there is imitation, it must be positive. Please, I haven’t thought it all out in my bathroom or in my bedroom to spout it out…
4:29 (Laughter) K: …but I’m just thinking aloud, so if we hesitate you’ll understand, it’s not...
4:42 Can we go into that a little bit?
4:44 Q: Yes.
4:45 K: Because it seems to me conformity, imitation, adjustment, all imply a way of fitting oneself into a mould. Imitating: the example, the saint, the… idea, an action corresponding to idea - you follow? - all that, it seems to me, is an imitative process. Now, let’s be clear of the word imitate. What does that mean, to imitate? The children imitate their parents - the way the parent smiles the child smiles; the speech, the mannerisms. And a little deeper, the imitation and conformity to tradition, to an idea, reaching up to the saint - you know? - all that is psychologically as well as outwardly, there is an imitative process going on consciously or unconsciously. I should think that process would be a positive process. I don’t…
6:28 More so, when a nation is old, a group of people very ancient, then tradition, conformity to the pattern, to the social structure, becomes extraordinarily important. And a country which is fairly recent like America and so on, they don’t… (inaudible) too much to that, but there is… the imitative process is going on in spite of the modern reactions, modern tendencies, and all the rest of so-called freedom. Now, how far can this imitative process...
7:13 – no - what is wrong with imitation, first of all? Wrong - you know? - quotes...
7:20 Dr Munro: It often springs from fear.
7:23 K: No, don’t jump to fear… (inaudible). Why shouldn’t I imitate you? Why shouldn’t I imitate so-called Christ, Buddha, or Hitler, or Charlemagne, or… I don’t know who?
7:35 Why shouldn’t I imitate? They have led so-called ideal life, highest honour and - you know? - all of that stuff and I… what’s wrong with it?
7:55 MM: In the process you fly away from yourself.
7:59 K: No… yes, that’s one part of… which is, the denial of yourself - isn’t it? - the putting away of yourself. Please go on.
8:12 MM: Thinking you’re not important.
8:14 Q: No.
8:15 K: That’s all part of it. Go a little deeper than that.
8:20 Q: You become a copy of the other person.
8:26 K: You become copy of that person: - all right, sir, that’s imitation. What is inherently wrong - in quotes - about imitation? That’s what I want to get at. You follow what I mean?
8:40 It has its benefits. When I’m dull mind, a stupid mind to conform to an ideal, to saints, it has certain sociological importance. You follow what I mean? But I want to get at what is inherently... what makes... what is wrong with imitation inherently?
9:11 Q: C’est une pareil.
9:12 K: Ah?
9:13 Q: C’est une pareil tres naturelle que ce reconsit a quelque chose et extremit si meme.
9:21 Comme (inaudible).
9:22 K: Yes. But what is the…? I don’t want to put it into words. Let’s discuss it.
9:33 Q: (Inaudible)… you never manage. That’s a sort of image that you never get to, so you are...
9:41 K: What is the essence of imitation?
9:43 Q: Following.
9:44 Q: Envy.
9:45 MM: Ignorance. Enrique Biascoechea: Ignorance.
9:47 MM: Ignorance or something.
9:49 K: No, no, Mar.
9:51 Q: Laziness.
9:52 K: No, no, do… - un momento - do get a... You see, you have described the peripheral processes, haven’t you? I want to get at the heart of it. I mean, the son imitates the father, his mannerism, his... etc., etc., and you say that it is merely because… that is denial of oneself; that’s part of it. And it prevents you from expressing yourself.
10:42 You follow? All these are merely the outward symptoms, and I want to get at something else much more deep which involves in this process of imitation.
10:57 Q: It’s efficiency?
10:59 K: Yes sir, but what… why? You see, is not - wait a minute, I want to get… - is not the whole of our thinking, whole of our existence imitation? We are second-hand.
11:18 Q: (Inaudible).
11:21 Q: (Inaudible).
11:24 Q: We are caught in this division.
11:30 K: No, no, no. Not… we are not… we are second-hand.
11:33 Q: Yes.
11:34 K: We’re not caught in a division. When I say, ‘I’m a Hindu,’ and all the rest of it, all the implications, I’m just - what? - repeating what my grandmother told me, or what somebody recently tells me, which is... I don’t know if I’m…
11:53 MM: But the child can’t build himself… (inaudible).
11:57 K: All right, so we say the child through imitation becomes… conforms. We know all that. You see, what is it we want to find out?
12:10 Q: (Inaudible)… authority outside yourself.
12:13 K: Outside yourself, and authority for yourself.
12:17 Q: Yes.
12:18 Q: It’s putting yourself... it’s removing responsibility from yourself.
12:22 K: Sir, what is ‘yourself’?
12:24 DM: Well, there isn’t any self, as long as... (inaudible).
12:27 K: No, no, no. What is yourself which says ‘I can’t express myself if I imitate’?
12:34 Is there any part of me which is not second-hand? You follow? I mean, you walk down Gstaad and you see these women and men… you can’t recognize from each other; they all look alike.
12:55 (Laughs) You follow what I mean? Sorry. (Laughter) Q: It’s a simplification.
13:02 K: Elizabeth Arden and… you know... (Laughter) Q: (Inaudible)… what to do. Just go into it.
13:16 MM: It’s very tricky, all this.
13:21 K: No, no, no, no. Just pursue it. I want to pursue it so that we come upon something for ourselves. You follow what I mean? If it is all second-hand, and thereby it’s always imitative - second-hand is bound to be imitative. I’m discovering something - you follow what I mean? - as we are talking. I don’t know if you are finding the same thing.
13:48 MM: I think in an idea, or in an imitation, there’s always deceiving oneself.
13:56 K: But yourself... you see what… (inaudible)?
13:57 MM: Well, there’s deceit in it… (inaudible).
13:58 Q: We are that.
13:59 K: But you see, you’re not pursuing it steadily step by step. You’re going off in different...
14:13 Q: But if you didn’t imitate you’d have to do something new.
14:20 K: But to do something new I have to stop imitation.
14:25 Q: Yes.
14:26 Q: Yes.
14:27 K: And how deep does this imitative process go on? And what does it mean?
14:34 MM: Excuse me, Krishnaji, what did you say? If I do something new, I’m still going on imitating… (inaudible)?
14:40 K: No. If I have... the gentleman says, ‘If I have to do something new, the whole imitative process must stop.’ MM: Yes?
14:48 K: And at what depth does it…? You follow…? Where is the end of imitation? No, because, you see, if - no, not ‘if’ - imitation is positive process. Right? Would we agree to that phrase, those two?
15:16 MM: Yes.
15:18 K: When I imitate my father, or the saint, or the hero, or a historical… etc., etc., or comply to the state, to a church, sanction, and all that, I am imitating, and that breeds in me the sense of positive living – you…? - a positive living, because I’m imitating.
15:44 I feel I am living positively, but if I examine that process it’s really... there is nothing original, there is nothing new, there is nothing but a series of conformities, adjusting, modification, but all within the frame of imitation. Right? I am that. And that’s what I call positive thinking.
16:17 MM: It’s frightening to let all that go.
16:22 K: No, no, no, no; do… no. That’s what I’m trying to get at. Don’t let anything go, but just let’s see how far this process goes - you follow what I mean? - how deep it is in us. After all, mediocrity and respectability is the essence of imitation - you follow what I mean? - essence of standardization.
17:01 Q: We’ve come to what we were discussing yesterday. There is a purpose always in imitation.
17:26 K: Yes sir.
17:27 Q: Come back to...
17:28 K: I don’t want to go back.
17:30 Q: But it’s always... I mean… (inaudible).
17:31 K: No… (inaudible) I don’t… I mean, it is not the same thing. I’ve forgotten yesterday and I want to see… I want to find out if everything is imitative, and I want to see how far this goes.
17:52 Q: All right, let’s find out if there is a purpose in imitation.
17:58 K: Obviously there’s a purpose. Conformity gives me pleasure - a dozen reasons - fear. I don’t imitate my father, or society, or Jesus, for pleasure; or maybe for pleasure, too..
18:12 Q: Excuse me. When I’m reading a book, when I’m going to cinema, when I’m seeing a mountain, is there in this thing an imitative process, or no? Or it can be something different?
18:27 K: When I see the mountain, is there imitative process? There is, surely, when I verbalize it, and the pleasure of seeing a mountain stored up in memory, and the next day when I see that mountain, that memory comes forward, and the imitative process goes on. No? When I go to a cinema, I get a certain kind of emotional kick - you follow? - and again that becomes a memory and I want it repeated, and so on. Need we go so much into detail over this process of imitation? We all know.
19:19 MM: Superficially it’s so clear.
19:21 K: And we all know how deeply impregnated this thing is, how deeply it has its roots.
19:29 Q: Infinite; infinitely deeply.
19:33 K: Oh, that... Therefore when we talk about negative thinking, that can only begin when the imitative process stops. You follow what I mean? And can it ever stop? We can’t take it for granted that it can stop. When the whole of society, the religion, politics, everything says, ‘Imitate, imitate, imitate. Conform.’ And I’m sure the modern artist, painter, whatever it is, modern artist is merely breaking away from imitation within the pattern - you follow what I mean? - super-real - you know, the whole business - the non- objective painters, all musicians… they are still in the frame of imitation but in revolt within the frame.
20:43 MM: I don’t think so, Krishnaji, no.
20:45 K: No? I’d like to find out.
20:47 MM: (Inaudible)… looking for new forms.
20:48 K: Ah, wait a minute.
20:50 MM: New forms.
20:51 K: They are looking for new forms.
20:53 MM: Yes, which is new, and that’s why it’s so difficult when something new comes in that field to understand it.
21:00 K: No, I am not sure… - you see, that… - I am not sure the originators of this new are really free from imitation, in the sense we have talked about.
21:11 MM: I think it’s different. It’s a verbal level.
21:15 K: Why do you think it is different? I mean, either I have ceased to imitate most profoundly - not just superficially by putting on no shirt, or shirt, or all the rest - but profoundly I’ve understood, and from there, new thing can be born, not in the intervals - you follow what I mean? - between the depth and the top. If there is a break, something new will come out, obviously, but to go to the very end of it.
21:57 Q: The first imitation is of the parents, and all imitation after that is an extension of that, surely.
22:03 K: Surely, surely, surely.
22:04 Q: But that’s absolutely impossible to put aside.
22:05 K: Yes sir?
22:06 Q: Sir, sir, you have defined a genius.
22:11 K: No, no, I don’t want to… No. Why not?
22:15 Q: You have.
22:16 K: Why not?
22:17 Q: You have defined genius.
22:19 K: Why not? If it is definition of a genius, I want to drop all this rot.
22:26 Q: I agree.
22:27 MM: I don’t think it’s such rot.
22:30 K: No, no, no - you know? - don’t let’s quibble about words. Now, wait a minute. I want to get back.
22:37 MM: There’s something in it.
22:38 K: You see…
22:41 Q: I find the truths of imitation in desire, from which springs ambition.
22:58 K: Sir, I understand that, sir, but you see, Mr Biascoechea asked yesterday, he said, ‘Please discuss negative thinking. I don’t quite understand it.’ And as we discussed yesterday passion, and the whole… what was involved in it, all that, I’m wondering if the mind can ever be free from imitation and therefore be in a state of negation, in a state of an emptiness from which it acts, which is not… which hasn’t its roots in imitation. I don’t know… Am I making sense or nonsense?
23:57 Q: By breaking the repetitive process, the mechanic of the mind.
24:02 K: How do you…? No. You see, you’re not... You’re trying to find a result. I don’t want a result. I don’t want to break anything.
24:10 Q: No. If you see how your mind work all the time repeating and repeating.
24:14 K: Of course, we all know that.
24:16 Q: If you see that, and then you…. every time that you see that you do something is repetition of the same thing…. (inaudible).
24:24 K: Agree; agree; then what?
24:26 Q: Then you stop.
24:27 K: How do you stop? And what makes you stop?
24:31 Q: Same time you are always doing the same thing.
24:34 K: And then you’ll fall into another pattern and do the same thing over and over and over again.
24:37 Q: Not if you see it completely.
24:38 K: Ah?
24:39 Q: Not if you see that everything that you do is a constant repetition.
24:42 K: Then what will you do?
24:45 Q: I think I would stop and see, to see what comes natural. There will be no this repetition of everybody else, or myself.
24:54 Q: But imitation comes naturally.
24:57 Q: (Inaudible).
24:58 K: Yes, I was just going to say the same thing.
25:05 MM: I wonder if in that state of emptiness I don’t think any form would be created.
25:11 K: No. Leave that for the moment. I mean… You see, I don’t want to go… (inaudible).
25:16 Q: Is it possible for a child not to imitate the parents? I can’t see this.
25:18 K: What, sir?
25:19 Q: I can’t see that a child wouldn’t imitate the parents.
25:22 K: Would; all right.
25:23 Q: I can’t see that any child could not imitate.
25:26 K: Of course it will.
25:28 Q: It must.
25:29 K: It must, it must.
25:31 Q: Yes, indeed…
25:32 K: As the lady says, it must; of course, it must.
25:36 Q: And this is the very source of imitation, that...
25:38 K: Right; then proceed, sir.
25:39 Q: Until you realize that all that you do is imitation.
25:41 K: And then… - no, I will keep quiet - and then what? Proceed.
25:42 Q: If you realize that everything is imitation, then you have to realize there has to be something that is not imitation.
25:48 K: But I don’t want to realize anything. I just want to see how far imitative process goes on. You follow? I don’t want to break it because it will break of itself. I don’t want... Who am I - you follow? - to break it, because I’m also the result of imitation.
26:18 Q: Yes.
26:21 Q: I mean, imitation is surely necessary, isn’t it, in the first...
26:27 K: Obviously, sir; obviously; obviously. I imitate.
26:29 Q: But what must occur eventually is that it’s unnecessary.
26:34 K: Yes. Now, where does this… when... how does this break, or the thing that’s not necessary, take place? You follow what I’m saying? Or I’m not making myself clear.
26:51 Many: (Inaudible).
26:52 Q: Yes, but any other stage where the person no longer feels dependent on these things outside...
27:00 Doris Pratt: But when does that stage come?
27:04 Q: I mean, a mature person wouldn’t imitate because he wouldn’t need the sense of permanence or security which he would gain from that state.
27:12 K: Yes sir; yes sir.
27:14 Q: Then he’d begin by... he stops imitating others and begins by imitating his own self.
27:22 He creates his own pattern, which is more difficult to realize and to break away than one is stuck in one’s own pattern.
27:35 DM: Is it…? It seems to me that a child, though he imitates, there is more in him which is not imitation than in many older people…
27:47 Q: Yes.
27:48 Q: Yes.
27:49 DM: … and that...
27:51 K: No, no… leave the child. That‘s a dangerous subject. Because, you know, here we are, grown- up, so-called, so-called mature people. And I want to find out for myself, see the depth and the height of imitation - nothing more - and how does it express itself, what is its mechanism, the opportunity. You follow what I…? I want to know - not ‘want’ - I must see the whole of it; not try to stop it, try to achieve something, nothing of that kind. I just want to see the immense machinery of imitation. I want to learn about it. You follow what I mean? You see, to learn about it - you know, all that business we talked about - I want to see if I’m imitative, if every thought is imitative and every experience imitative, manners, good behaviour, all that; where it is, should be, where it should not be. You follow what I mean? I don’t know if I’m conveying anything.
29:37 Many: Yes.
29:39 MM: But there is a part of you which doesn’t imitate.
29:45 K: Is there?
29:47 MM: Yes.
29:48 K: Which is that?
29:49 MM: When you listen, what is going on with this bird, it’s no imitation.
29:53 K: Which means what?
29:54 MM: To get something which is...
29:55 K: Which means, when I listen without interpretation.
29:56 MM: Well, that you do very often.
29:57 K: Yes. Wait, wait, wait. I don’t say it is something extraordinary what we’re talking about.
30:01 MM: No.
30:02 Q: Krishnaji, you said watching where it should be and where it should not be.
30:08 K: Ah, no, that’s a matter of phrase, a way of saying… Don’t pick up the... which means two opposites. I’m not talking in that sense. You know, I... (Laughs) I keep to the right side of the road, here in this country; that’s a part of imitation, isn’t it?
30:30 Q: No, that’s not imitation; it’s a part of security. And to that extent the whole of imitation is a problem of security.
30:37 K: That’s right, that’s right… That’s right. That’s what we are saying. That’s what that gentleman said.
30:39 Q: That is why when she says when she listens to a bird there is no imitation… (inaudible).
30:43 K: (Inaudible)… is no fear involved, no security, nothing is involved. It doesn’t touch you; it’s like a dog which worships you.
30:52 Q: But then the whole of imitation is a matter of security.
30:55 K: Yes, it is.
30:56 Q: It is right from the animal.
30:59 K: Yes, yes, and then… You see, what I’m... I want to learn, not say, ‘It is security,’ and leave it there - you follow what I mean? - I want to learn. I want to see how the stream goes, where it goes.
31:13 Q: But can that stream go anywhere so long as there is that need for security?
31:20 K: All right.
31:21 MM: It’s right.
31:23 K: No, no, no, no, no, no. Security breeds imitation. Somebody said it, and you have said it.
31:30 Q: Yes, but I mean, you can keep to the right-hand side of the road because it’s the intelligent thing do.
31:36 Q: (Inaudible).
31:37 K: Yes. And part intelligence, which is security, which is law, which is… You follow?
31:40 Q: Yes, but I mean, you’re not doing it...
31:42 K: No, no, no, no. Ah, wait, wait, sir. The lady says, ‘As long as we are seeking security, there must be imitation,’ as somebody else earlier said. Now…
32:02 MM: When you’re completely quite, you don’t imitate.
32:10 K: No, Marcelle, you are going off to a state. I don’t want to know that state yet. I haven’t learnt enough.
32:21 MM: Yes, yes.
32:23 K: I’ve just begun even to inquire into imitation. You follow? I mean, whole of Christianity, all the religious organizations, have maintained ‘imitate’, and we are talking… we seem to be the only people saying, ‘No, it’s wrong; let’s find out.’ I mean, that requires great deal of search, understanding, and looking, watching - you know? - being sensitive to the whole thing. But we are not, because we are saying, ‘Security is this, it is that,’ and so on. We don’t take the whole thing and embrace it and look at it. I don’t know…
33:13 MM: It’s not easy. (Pause) K: I mean, this is a very important question - you see? - imitation. Right? I mean, you play piano - it’s imitation.
33:47 MM: No.
33:48 K: Playing, the technique.
33:49 MM: No.
33:50 K: Oh no. Rions.
33:51 MM: No, I don’t think it is. Excuse me.
33:52 K: What is not?
33:53 MM: I don’t see it’s imitation.
33:54 K: You practice, don’t you?
33:56 MM: When you do yoga, you don’t imitate.
33:58 K: That’s what I’m saying.
33:59 MM: You do something which is you.
34:01 K: No. Ah, when you do yoga…
34:02 MM: It’s your… (inaudible).
34:05 K: …when you practice, when you do certain things, what is taking place? Just a minute. There is any… I don’t know…. when one does yoga, unless you are extraordinarily aware of every movement, every bone, every stretch, every movement of the body, you’re not doing yoga.
34:23 MM: Well, it’s exactly the same with the piano; exactly.
34:25 K: Wait, wait, wait. Same thing - piano and all the… Right. Now...
34:33 MM: But you have many stupid people who imitate.
34:40 K: Leave those alone. Lots of stupid people who do yoga, but that’s not the point.
34:50 (Laughter) K: What I’m... You see, we are going off always on details. We are not getting the essence of it.
34:59 Q: It’s got the mechanical value which you must have.
35:02 K: Of course, sir, leave that. That’s… of course. I can do yoga mechanically.
35:07 Q: But you must have that, first of all, I mean, that’s...
35:12 K: Not necessarily. If it’s a good...
35:15 Q: (Inaudible)…you’re playing a piano you have to have a mechanical...
35:21 MM: No, it isn’t that.
35:22 K: She says so; she’s a pianist. So, I don’t know.
35:23 MM: It’s much more subtle. It is probably somewhere imitation, I don’t deny it, but it’s much more subtle. It’s your whole being which is in it, it is like...
35:38 Q: But what is one’s whole being?
35:44 Q: Well, I don’t know.
35:49 MM: And that’s where there is the delight which is so dangerous, because you are completely alive but it’s something which is, of course, repeated.
36:00 Q: Sir, just because one plays the same piece of music twice, it doesn’t mean that it has to be repetitive.
36:09 K: Repetitive; no, of course not.
36:11 MM: Sometimes it is, and then you hear it immediately… (inaudible).
36:13 K: You see, sir, I have talked about imitation dozens of times. Now, for me this is something totally new this morning - you follow? - and I want to learn all about it. You’re all…
36:34 you’re telling me like this, Marcelle and… you are dealing on the superficial level.
36:41 MM: Yes, I know.
36:43 K: And I’m fighting you all the time to say that is not it.
36:46 MM: Yes, because there it’s clear… (inaudible).
36:51 K: Of course, it’s very clear. Security breeds imitation; fear breeds imitation; success breeds imitation. Ambition is essentially imitation, because you have a goal and you want to imitate. When you want to fulfil, again there is… You follow? Our whole life is imitation, in the deep sense of that word.
37:21 Q: Pleasure.
37:22 K: Pleasure, all that, sir. Right. Now, let’s stop describing, describing, describing the symptoms of all this.
37:30 MM: Yes, but Krishnaji, you forget something which I find very important…
37:33 K: What’s that?
37:34 MM: It’s the love to find out. It’s not only imitation. You want find out.
37:41 K: But we are doing it now - wait a minute - we are doing it now. I want to find out if everything I do is imitation, including my yoga, including my speaking - you follow?
37:59 - piano, whatever it is that I say I love to do, is it part of this extraordinary vitalizing process of imitation? You follow?
38:17 MM: Yes.
38:27 DM: Is fear itself part of imitation?
38:34 K: Yes, sir. You see, don’t include everything; then you’re getting lost. You follow? Then what I’ve... Sir, if I’ve learnt all about imitation, there is nothing more to learn - you follow what I mean? - then some other process might begin.
39:00 DM: Yes; yes.
39:01 K: But unless I learn about it, I can’t say there is a new process, which would be too silly. So from my mind I must banish security - which is very difficult - I must banish the idea of reaching a goal, spiritual and non-spiritual, looking at the end of my nose and getting all kinds of tricks and fancies, and all... that must go. And I must not be respectable - you follow? - in the ordinary accepted… and I must not conform to the family; there must be no ideal - you follow what is involved in not being imitative? - and therefore no future. You follow?
40:02 Q: Yes.
40:04 K: All that’s implied in this extraordinary thing, and we are talking glibly about something, say, ‘Let’s get rid of this, or…’ You follow?
40:14 Q: Yes.
40:15 K: So I have to begin to see that security in any form breeds imitation. And not resist security. I have to understand it, which means I shan’t throw myself under a bus, obviously.
40:41 So have I understood that part? You follow? And to understand the state of non-security, without becoming unbalanced, neurotic, and psychopathic, and all the rest of it, doesn’t it mean that there must be the cessation of seeking… of being imitative in security - you follow what I mean? - security which breeds imitation?
41:33 MM: You say that you see the difficulty is not to get insane or imbalanced or neurotic or...
41:49 K: Ah, of course, of course.
41:51 MM: And so that’s not very nice to think about, so you...
41:54 K: Most people do. Moment they become uncertain - you know what...? - they go to pieces.
41:59 MM: Yes. And that’s why one goes back to what one knows.
42:04 K: Of course… You follow?
42:06 MM: Frightening.
42:07 Q: It’s so difficult to look at the question without imitating. That’s the crux of it, surely.
42:11 K: What, sir?
42:12 Q: To look at the question without imitating.
42:16 K: That’s right. (Pause) Or - wait a minute - or is there something else, if I got hold of it, all imitative processes will drop away? You follow what I’m talking? Not if ‘I got’ - I’m using a word. Don’t say afterwards, ‘How do you…? Who is you? Who is to get hold of it? What is the…?’ I don’t mean that. It’s like getting a hold of a storm - you follow? - the tail of a storm and holding on to it; and the storm isn’t imitative.
43:23 You follow? Either we go though this extraordinary process of listening, watching, looking - you follow? - learning, or there is an explosion which makes… - I’ll use the word makes and you will…. - which makes you catch on to some... - words - an explosion that no longer is concerned about imitation, which is always exploding - you follow? - there is no... it’s like a volcano that’s always burning, burning, burning.
44:20 Mr McBryan: If one really sees this business of imitation, if one really sees it, is that a…? I feel that that would be a tremendous explosion in itself.
44:43 K: Yes. You see, Mr McBryan...
44:44 Q: It’s difficult not to premeditate this explosion… (inaudible).
44:47 K: What?
44:48 Q: Yes.
44:49 Q: (Inaudible).
44:50 Q: It’s difficult not to premeditate this explosion. I mean, you’ve described it and we sort of sit here expecting it.
44:54 K: No, no, no, no. (Laughter) K: Ah, no, no; then you are lost… (inaudible) premeditating, expecting it -you’ll never get it, but that’s... No, I don’t mean that way. I want to… You see…? Sir, one could keep on digging - you follow what I mean? - dig, dig, dig, dig; learn, learn; break through - you follow? - watch, listen, learn all the time. From this end, as it were - you follow what I’m talking? - from one end of the tunnel - you understand? - from this end I can do all that: watch, observe, be aware, learn, see all the infinite implication of security, fear, imitation. And we are fairly intelligent at that game - you follow? - because we’ve talked enough about it. We know all the words, and the tricks, and… - you follow?
46:06 - but at the end of it there is no explosion. Not that I’m seeking an explosion. And I’m asking myself: must a mind go though all that, and is there a possibility of exploding without all this? You follow what I mean?
46:34 Q: I can’t see... This was Mr Berry’s question yesterday that... he wasn’t shocked when he heard this discovery at all.
46:42 K: No.
46:43 Q: I can’t see that you have to have the explosion. I mean, you just pursue it until your mind has worked it out, surely.
46:50 K: Now, I... you’re not... I’m using the word explosion… Sir, look, sir, must one go through drunkenness to know what sobriety is?
47:12 Q: I think in a sense, yes. I think . . .
47:17 K: Ah, no, no, wait, wait; don’t say yes. Must I go through murder to know what…?
47:26 Must I go through all the experiences to be free of every experience? You follow what I mean?
47:33 Q: Yes, yes. But that does in itself, that kind of thing, if you go through the experience, does free you of it.
47:42 K: Not necessarily. You might get caught in the habit of it. Don’t… don’t… You follow? Just see. Put yourself one question - sobriety - and see all the implications involved in it.
48:00 Q: Well, what one does in effect is to imaginatively go through the...
48:05 K: No, sir, take... Am I’m talking... will it upset anybody if I talk?
48:10 Q: No.
48:11 K: Homosexuality. Must I go through homosexuality to know about it?
48:14 Q: No, because you can imagine the...
48:17 K: Ah, I don’t want to… that’s not experiencing.
48:20 Q: But you can see…
48:23 K: No, drunkenness is something entirely different. I get drunk, positively. You follow?
48:31 Q: Yes. Right.
48:33 K: Must I go through the positive drinking alcohol in order to find out what sobriety is?
48:42 EB: They are two different things altogether.
48:50 K: Yes, exactly.
48:53 MB: You mean you don’t have to know anything about drunkenness to know what sobriety is.
48:58 K: Why should I go through drink?
49:00 MB: Yes; exactly.
49:01 K: Why should I go through... You follow, sir?
49:02 MB: Yes.
49:03 K: In the same way, just a little bit...
49:04 Q: What do you want to find . . . you see, if you want to find out about drunkenness, for instance...
49:11 K: But I can see what drunken is; I’ve seen them in the street.
49:14 Q: Right, that’s my point, that you can see it without necessarily going though it.
49:17 K: Yes, but I don’t want... But must I go through drunkenness…? Or take the other: I’ve seen death.
49:25 Q: Yes.
49:26 K: Covered with lovely flowers, unfortunately, and must I die to find out what death is?
49:35 Q: No, because you can see it.
49:37 K: Ah, no, that’s merely...
49:38 Q: No, no, I don’t mean physically; I mean, in the sense that...
49:40 K: The whole implication of it. You see...
49:50 Q: (Inaudible).
49:51 K: Sir, look, take… don’t visualize. There is this thing, security - is it possible to cut it immediately and not go through security, fear, imitation - you follow? - all the things involved in it? Can’t I see the thing in what is taking place in me outside, and end it immediately?
50:22 Q: If I see that imitation doesn’t bring me the security.
50:27 K: Ah, sir, no, no. You see, then it’s merely conditional acceptance that imitation doesn’t give me something.
50:42 MM: You should see imitation as you see drunkenness, in the same realistic...
50:49 K: Look, sir, look sir, I’m at the edge of an abyss, a chasm, can’t I…? I won’t go forward; it’s obvious; it would be too silly. I go away. In the same way, can’t I see this whole process of imitation - you follow? - security, fear, conformity, acceptance, authority, obedience - you follow? - the whole thing involved in it, just walk away from it?
51:22 Q: But why walk away? I mean...
51:23 K: Ah, because… I’ll tell you why. You can’t remain at the edge of a precipice all your life. It’s no meaning.
51:30 Q: But you’ve got to stay there for a while, at least.
51:36 K: I have; I’ve looked at it. That’s enough for me.
51:41 Q: But this is the point I was trying to make, that your looking may not be an instant thing at all, it may be...
51:49 K: No, I... Why not? I see what people have done, who are seeking secure, how miserable they are, how frightened they are, in their relationships, in their… everything.
52:00 Q: You said you would have to be much sharper, I mean, you... (inaudible).
52:04 K: That’s it; that’s it. Much... so intensely sensitive.
52:08 Q: But you don’t… surely, I mean, this perception - this is the point I would make is you don’t have it until it’s built up. It’s... (inaudible).
52:18 K: Ah, no, no. If you have built it up, if you have thought about it, premeditated, cultivated, put brick by brick, it’s no longer the thing.
52:32 Q: Yes, but there was a question at one of the talks - if I can bring this up. I’m sorry to...
52:37 K: It doesn’t matter.
52:38 Q: A girl asked what happens between the flashes.
52:39 K: Yes.
52:40 Q: Now, you need this constant attention.
52:41 K: Yes.
52:42 Q: Now, my point is that that constant attention is the thing which will -theoretically should - bring you to the flash.
52:48 K: Yes. Yes, sir.
52:50 Q: But that attention takes chronological time, doesn’t it?
52:54 Q: No.
52:55 K: Not necessarily. Sir, sir, forget everything; just look at it. Can’t you immediately understand the whole implication of security, because you’ve studied enough, you’ve watched, you’ve seen, and say, ‘No more; finished’?
53:26 Q: You can only put the question and leave it there. You can’t do anything. We can only put the question deeply to ourselves and stop there.
53:39 K: Yes, sir. You see, what we began discussing this morning is negative thinking Q: Yes.
53:44 K: And I feel as long as there is imitative process going on, there must be positive thinking.
53:55 And it is this positive thinking that breeds fear. It all sounds so crookedly upside down (laughs).
54:06 Q: You mean, if I can see security and realize what security is, understand it, continuous living in the same condition, but with the understanding of the condition?
54:20 K: Surely.
54:22 Q: Because I feel, as I have to depend somebody else doesn’t mean that I have to run from that person… (inaudible) in the same condition… (inaudible).
54:32 K: You may. Ah, you can’t lay down the law about it.
54:34 Q: No, but this is... (inaudible).
54:36 K: I’m married to my wife. Wait, take it, take it, take it simply. In that relationship we have established a mutual society of gratification and security. Right. I one day wake up and say, ‘Good Lord, look what I’m doing.’ Now, what happens?
54:54 Q: Well, I see I always find security. I miss... I can see my relationship as it is it.
55:01 K: Yes, I see that.
55:02 Q: (Inaudible)… depending on security.
55:03 K: Yes, I see that.
55:04 Q: For this reason, I don’t have to run away. I have… (inaudible).
55:06 K: Ah, don’t say ‘I may.’ I may say ‘Well, sorry, no more’.
55:10 Q: No more?
55:11 K: And walk out.
55:13 Q: But it is not necessary. The situation is nothing like that K: Don’t say... For everybody you’re not laying down the law.
55:16 Q: No, no, but I’m talking about… (inaudible).
55:18 K: Ah, that’s all right.
55:19 Q: But I see that my marriage, half of that marriage is security. But with the understanding of that, I continue in my marriage, understanding security.
55:27 K: I understand that. That’s a different question, surely. You see, you are all concerned with action. I’m not. That will come much later, what to do in relationship, about having a mortgage, insurance - all that will come later.
55:47 (Laughter) MM: Can a drunk man see la sobrietè? If he is in the state of drunkenness, he doesn’t know what sobrietè is.
55:58 K: Obviously, drunkenness is escaping and all the various reasons. I’m not… we’re not drunk here.
56:03 MM: No, but we can be in the... (inaudible).
56:07 Q: Is security identity?
56:10 K: Surely. I identify myself with the country, with an idea... Oh, yes, sir.
56:21 Q: May I expose my difficulty? I try to see deeply this imitative process, but my mind is always thinking some other, some in the past, some in the future. It is quite impossible to make me really deeply attentively. The mind is continuously escaping, and I know that you try that we are deeply attentive, but I think that when I listen you, I am thinking to make some question to you, to do something. So I have the impression that my mind is so lazy that is impossible to me to be really attentive and to be really and deeply knowing this process of imitation.
57:17 K: Look, sir, as I said, please... or what to do comes later - you follow what I mean?
57:34 – whether… how to be attentive, I am not attentive, what would bring about attention - all action comes later, or all action comes simultaneously with understanding. You follow what I mean?
57:52 Q: Yes.
57:53 K: Now we haven’t got understanding, and we say, ‘What shall I do?’ What I...
58:00 Q: I’m not real attentive. I’m thinking about imitation. I am thinking, I am making words, making questions to you...
58:15 K: Yes sir.
58:17 Q: But what means to be really and deeply…?
58:21 K: I don’t know. I say, ‘I don’t know,’ then where are you? You follow?
58:35 Q: I follow, yes.
58:37 K: Ah, no, no. No, no. No, no.
58:41 Q: I follow that I can say that I don’t know.
58:43 K: No, no. No, no. No, no, you’re not following.
58:45 Q: (Inaudible).
58:46 K: You asked me how to be deeply attentive. Right?
58:49 Q: Yes.
58:50 K: And the person to whom you look for authority, who will explain to you how to be attentive, he says, ‘I don’t know. Do it yourself.’ You are stuck then. You follow? Now we are not stuck. You understand what I’m saying, sir?
59:13 Q: What is ‘stuck’?
59:17 K: What is ‘stuck’ in Italian? Many: Docato.
59:23 K: Docato? C’est ça - docato.
59:28 Q: If you answer, I am stuck.
59:31 K: No. If I say I don’t know, I turn my back to you, then you are stuck -docato.
59:41 (Laughter) Q: (Inaudible).
59:44 K: You see? Look, sir, what you have found out something; very important what you have found out. You have found out that you had an authority to whom you can look and find an answer, which is essence of imitation. Right? And the authority says, ‘Don’t.
1:00:08 I’ve no answer.’ What has happened to you? You haven’t found out that you are imitative. All that you say, ‘I’m stuck.’ I don’t know if you’re getting what I’m talking about. So you begin to get yourself unstuck by doing something else: going to church, going to another meeting, or reading this… You follow? Your concern is to get unstuck. You haven’t learnt - not you; I’m not being personal - you haven’t learnt, said, ‘By Jove, look what I’ve done. I’m trying to understand what is imitation, and by looking to that man I’m imitative…’ You haven’t learned that thing. You follow?
1:01:20 Q: I can’t see that the perception is… necessarily occurs. If you stick with this...
1:01:42 if you remain stuck, for instance, and just remain stuck, doesn’t it simply wear down?
1:01:48 K: No. Sir, if you are merely bogged down...
1:01:50 Q: No, if you remain bogged down...
1:01:53 K: Yes, if you remain bogged down, you haven’t gone behind it - you follow? - why you are bogged down. And you are bogged down, you say, ‘How shall I get out?’ Q: Yes, but the point is that if you’re bogged down, you stay bogged down, and conscious that you’re bogged down, there’s not necessarily a sudden flash.
1:02:14 K: No.
1:02:15 Q: It may be just a simply...
1:02:17 K: Yes sir, yes sir, but his question was different - you follow? - he says, ‘I’m not fully aware. How am I to do it?’ Q: You’ve got to stay with that… (inaudible).
1:02:27 K: Ah, no, he doesn’t; he’s asking somebody else to tell him what to do, and therefore he’s started on the imitative process. And if he says ‘Look, my very question “What am I to do?” is invitation to imitation,’ then he’ll stop it immediately.
1:02:54 Q: You are assuming, sir, that his mind works like yours.
1:03:12 K: Ah, no. No, there is a... not like mine; I’m... God forbid. (Laughter) Q: You know, you made a definition.
1:03:21 K: Where?
1:03:22 Q: Because he’s asking for help.
1:03:25 K: I say ‘No help.’ Q: I realize that, but because my mind does not imitate yours, however...
1:03:37 K: No, sir, when you...
1:03:39 Q: How about points of contact?
1:03:42 K: No, sir. When he is asking for help from this man who’s sitting here, and the man says, ‘Sorry, I’m not here,’ he is left with the problem.
1:03:51 Q: Correct.
1:03:52 K: And the problem doesn’t teach him that he’s imitating...
1:03:57 Q: Correct.
1:03:58 K: And… but what it has taught him is: ‘By Jove, I’m stuck. I don’t know what to do.’ Q: He’s helpless.
1:04:06 K: Which is, he wants to be helped and therefore he’s helpless.
1:04:12 Q: Correct. Now, do you want to help him or not?
1:04:16 K: No, I don’t. (Laughter) K: I don’t what to take his hand and lead him out. It would be too silly. I can’t do it.
1:04:20 Q: You said he wants to be helped and therefore he’s helpless.
1:04:25 K: That’s right, sir.
1:04:28 Q: It’s because he wants to be helped that he’s helpless.
1:04:31 K: That’s right. He wants to find somebody to help him to be aware, and there is nobody - which is a tremendous discovery for him. You follow what I mean? When you are discussing the whole.... the implication of imitation, here is a thing which you can jump on and capture and say ‘I’m out.’ I don’t know…
1:05:00 Q: That is clarity.
1:05:01 K: Yes sir… You’re out.
1:05:02 Q: But why come here at all? I mean…
1:05:04 K: Ah?
1:05:05 Q: Why come here at all, after all?
1:05:09 K: Ah, ah… No, I’ll tell you. Ah, that’s a different matter.
1:05:17 (Laughter) K: Oh, I’ll go; I’ll go to every meeting I could.
1:05:24 Q: Pardon?
1:05:26 K: I would go to every meeting I could.
1:05:34 Q: Why?
1:05:36 K: Why?
1:05:37 Q: Yes.
1:05:39 K: Why do you think? (Laughter) Q: Economic reasons, I should think.
1:05:48 K: Ah, no, apart from that. Look, sir, you can look at the mountain every day and not get tired, not get used to it. In the same way, you can look… listen to somebody, find out and not get used to it. That’s all.
1:06:22 Let’s come back. I don’t know if we’ve gone off, or if we are near it, but the question is: negative thinking, you see? (Inaudible)… yes sir. You see, it tallies in, it fits in beautifully, if you really go into it, which is, you see, we think our thinking is imitation. We see what we have discussed: security, fear, conformity, each experience shaping the future experience and so on. Now, and that is what we are fed on and that’s our life, which is our positive process of existence. Now, here comes another man who says, ‘That’s all... we understand all that, but try...’ He doesn’t tell you how to do it, because then you are lost, but see that there is a thinking out of emptiness.
1:07:46 And that emptiness, it can never be imitative.
1:07:47 MM: The process of wanting to find out is also imitation.
1:08:04 Q: Yes.
1:08:05 K: That’s why I stopped you. I said, ‘Look, we know that process of imitation, security, conformity, adjustment, all that.’ MM: Even finding out.
1:08:14 K: All that: finding, searching, seeking, wanting - like that gentleman wants to know how to be aware - all that. Leave all that; and he says, ‘Look, out of emptiness, act.’ If you say to me, ‘How am I to arrive at emptiness?’ you are dished. You have begun the process of imitation. That’s why I said, is it possible to jump into that? You follow?
1:08:53 And I say it is possible. It is possible if you don’t ask, if you don’t say, ‘How?’ Q: There is nothing in our experience that would give us a clue to that.
1:09:09 K: Your experience is imitation - you follow? - obviously, it won’t give you clue to that.
1:09:14 Q: You can’t learn from anything in your own life.
1:09:25 K: Therefore you’ve found out something.
1:09:31 Q: It’s incredibly difficult not to...
1:09:34 K: Yes sir.
1:09:35 Q: …let you do the work, I mean, this is...
1:09:44 K: Yes sir. You see, sir, we have never put the question.
1:09:52 MM: That’s it.
1:09:55 K: We have accepted the imitative process, refined it, modified it, polished it - you follow? - that’s all. We have never said, ‘Can it end?’ and we have never said, ‘If it ends - what?’ You follow? You know, sir, it’s like a drum. The drum is always empty. It’s full, it’s rich, it has got depth and everything; it’s always empty.
1:10:55 Touch it and it gives a note. It is like that. Ah? Non et capito?
1:11:06 Q: No. Many: (Italian).
1:11:11 K: You see, that emptiness is original, the other is not.
1:11:22 Q: Sir, you’re always telling us, ‘Watch, and look, and listen, and attention,’ and all that; well, what relation does that have with this emptiness?
1:11:40 K: Ah, tremendous relation now, just now. I have watched, listened, understood the whole process of imitation - you follow? - in an hour. That’s good enough for me. I don’t want to spend a whole lifetime learning about some stupid stuff - you follow? - and I say, ‘By Jove,’ and I see the meaning of all that, and it drops away and in the other state.
1:12:13 Ah, not in the other... It all sounds too absurd.
1:12:17 Q: Yes, but in that other state you will still be watching and looking and listening.
1:12:24 K: Ah, much more. But… in that state there is no strain. You follow what I mean? I don’t want to compare the two; it’s too absurd to put the two in contrast. No, you see, sir, do look at this this way: there is security, which is positive, imitative; and negative thinking is not that, it is something else. Find out, go… You follow, sir, what I mean?
1:13:00 Don’t say, ‘What is it? Tell me, describe to me, let me feel it, let me meditate…’ which is all silly nonsense. I don’t know if you… Find out. To find out, you have no leader, no book; nobody is going to tell you. Anybody tells you, kick him; swift kick in the pants.
1:13:37 Q: He’d be kicked to death by now.
1:13:54 Q: But to kick him implies hatred.
1:13:56 K: Oh no; come off it. Oh… (Laughter) K: Or don’t kick him; leave him… (inaudible) whatever you do.
1:14:13 Q: Well, if you can’t learn from it, and you can’t make any movement about it at all.
1:14:20 K: Ah, no, no. Don’t go back to that, old boy. No. Sir, the movement that we have known is imitative.
1:14:32 Q: Yes.
1:14:36 K: That’s all. And that imitative process is the positive thinking which sustains, maintains the imitative process. You know, look at it, sir, very simply, very simply. What gives continuity to thought? Oh, I mustn’t go on; it’s time. We’ll discuss it tomorrow.
1:15:10 SB: What to say is that there is not I and the imitative process, but…
1:15:14 K: You are the imitative…
1:15:17 SB: The imitative process...
1:15:19 K: Is you.
1:15:22 Q: (Italian).
1:15:26 K: Yes, sir. No, you see, you never come to a blank wall. You’re trying to get around it, through it, above it, below it; you’re doing… You never say, ‘By Jove, I’m against, completely at the edge of a precipice.’ And when you are in that state, you either become... you resort to despair or try to find a way out. You follow?