GS62DSG3 - Do we go to the end of anything?
Gstaad, Switzerland - 16 August 1962
Discussion with Small Group 3
0:01 | This is the third small group discussion with J. Krishnamurti in Gstaad, 1962. |
0:11 | Krishnamurti: Do you think we went as far as we could go into negative thinking yesterday? I have a sneaking feeling, and I may be wrong, that you are... each one of us is trying to understand something, which the speaker states, like negative thinking, what it is, and we try to investigate it. I should think one would come to this naturally, rather than you try to understand the speaker. I should have thought we would come upon it because we have seen so much, learned so much, heard, suffered, enjoyed, and seen all the struggles and naturally, both intellectually and actually come to this point, and therefore you’re not trying to understand the speaker; you’re... I should have thought you would have come to it yourself, not … I don’t know if I’m making my statement clear. (Pause) You see, what we were talking about yesterday, imitation, as we said, all our education, upbringing, our conduct, everything is based on that, to imitate, and occasionally there is a certain reaction against that imitation which we call revolt and we do something as an opposition to that and... which we call freedom. It isn’t that at all. Do you think that we have gone sufficiently into that? |
3:43 | Questioner: I think we could go on with this. |
4:24 | Q: Perhaps it would lead into the question of awareness. |
4:34 | Doris Pratt: I think we feel it a bit of a challenge that you say why haven’t we... - not ‘why?’ - but you’re wondering why it is we haven’t come up on this ourselves and it makes me wonder whether, perhaps, either I’m simply not of the right calibre and shouldn’t be here at all, because the fact is without the help we’ve all given each other in trying to see things clearly, we shouldn’t even be where we are without the help we’ve received from you and each other. And I’m wondering whether I’m not of the right calibre or whether I don’t see it... just don’t see things clearly. I really didn’t see very clearly yesterday that my whole being is a process of imitation. You see that; I don’t and I’m wondering what the difference is between us, intrinsically. |
5:31 | K: It may be… - I’m not saying I’m different and all the rest of it - it may be, as you raised the question the other day before we… I mean, when we started this discussion, whether it’s possible to be free from fear. And that may be the essence of imitation. I mean, that fear may be what makes us so terribly mediocre, terribly… or... - you know? - all the rest of it. |
6:18 | Q: I can’t help feeling that the respect that may be felt for you is preventing communication. |
6:37 | K: Respect for me? |
6:40 | Q: Indeed, yes. |
6:42 | K: What for? I ain’t done nothing. (Laughter) |
6:48 | Q: No, indeed but it’s very easy in the situation to have you sitting there and us sitting here. |
6:58 | K: No, I think... is that our relationship or is it we are both trying to find out? At least... I don’t treat you that way. |
7:09 | Q: No, indeed. |
7:11 | K: Because I’m concerned. You follow? |
7:13 | Q: Yes, but the point that I’m making is that a block seems to occur the moment that there’s any sense of respect for you in any sense of form on the part of people listening here. |
7:29 | DP: I don’t altogether agree with that. I think one is bound to respect, have a feeling of respect… (inaudible). |
7:36 | K: Let’s skip that for the moment. That’s not important whether you have respect... That’s not… What is important is, as we were discussing yesterday, if one begins to observe and realize and really go to the root of it that all conformity, imitation, as it was pointed out yesterday, is based on security and fear and therefore this kind of peculiar positive thinking, is it possible to step out of it? You know what I mean? |
8:38 | Q: You see, it seems to me, if I may say so, that the primary problem is this question of treating you as the authority. Now, that to my mind prevents the communication straight away. |
8:53 | K: Is it…? |
8:54 | Q: Now, we can’t... it’s not your fault that… |
8:55 | K: I won’t have it my… I mean, is that what is preventing us? Because I treat you with respect and authority... I don’t understand the issue? |
9:09 | Q: No. |
9:10 | Q: It… |
9:11 | K: You are out of it. I’m not concerned with you at all. The problem is there. The problem is I am imitative; my whole being is second-hand. You follow? |
9:27 | Q: Yes. |
9:28 | K: Whether you are sitting on platform, on a cloud or in hell or heaven, it doesn’t matter to me in the least. The problem is there and the problem is, being that, I say, what am I... how..., is it possible to break through? That’s all my concern. You are out of the picture. I listen to you. I say, well, what you’re saying may be reasonable or not reasonable. I’ll be critical. I’ll be watchful what you’re saying. It doesn’t mean I disregard what you’re saying, but respect, authority, all that’s gone; it doesn’t... |
10:09 | Q: Indeed, and that’s what I’m saying, that it’s incredibly easy to, if you read one of your books or something like that, to find yourself accepting this as a standard. It’s just too easy to do. And this is my point that we don’t meet you as an equal. |
10:29 | K: I understand that, sir. Ah, no, I don’t… You see, I don’t feel you and I... Look, we are two research students (laughs). You follow? |
10:42 | Q: Yes. |
10:44 | K: And we’re examining an issue; we’re searching a problem. We are trying to understand a very complex network of emotional, intellectual - you know? - all that stuff. |
10:59 | Q: Yes, but my point is that the first problem is that it would appear you to be the professor and us the students. |
11:05 | K: Ah... ah, ah. Then that’s fairly simple to clear right off. At least we can clear that up very easily. If that is a stumbling block, don’t create it. I am not... I refuse under any circumstance to be a professor, an authority, a specialist. I’m out. |
11:24 | Q: Isn’t there a common interest? |
11:27 | K: No, there is no common interest. I have a problem, that’s all. And there you and I meet. Not you woman and I am a man, French... There is an issue. |
11:51 | Q: Yes. |
11:54 | K: If I treat you as an authority… |
11:58 | Q: It’s not that, sir. It’s that we treat you as an authority. |
12:02 | K: Yes, yes, I’m putting myself... |
12:04 | Q: Right. |
12:05 | K: You the authority and I listen, Then the problem becomes too absurd because I am concerned… |
12:13 | Q: With you. |
12:14 | K: ...with the issue, not with you saying, ‘By Jove, you know so much more than I do.’ I think that has to be swept right out. I mean, that would be too... I mean, that would become... - you know? - (laughs) church… |
12:30 | DP: Doesn’t that imply that we’re not really very conscious of a problem? |
12:35 | K: Probably not. But, after all… I mean, it is a problem, whether all our being is second-hand - that is a tremendous problem. You may say, ‘Well, I don’t care two pins about it’ - that’s all right but to see that one is second-hand. |
13:05 | DP: I think that is the adventure we’re trying to make, to see ourselves as second-hand. |
13:10 | K: Ah, no, no. Not adventure. You’re not trying. It is a fact. |
13:16 | DP: A fact for you. |
13:17 | K: Ah, no, it’s not a fact for me. Look at yourself. I’m sorry, not you. I mean… (Laughter) |
13:24 | K: Look at each one of us. We are second-hand, absolutely. |
13:28 | Q: I don’t think you are second-hand at all. |
13:32 | K: (Inaudible)... for God’s sake, leave me alone, (Laughter) |
13:37 | K: No, I mean, let us take this issue. Really, apart from the speaker, the thing is there on the table. Whether you like or not it is there. |
13:57 | Q: I was thinking that there are certain kinds of thing which are not imitation, like fear, envy, sex, some of these things, and what is the relation of these to imitation? I mean, the... they’re impulses and somehow one twists them or does something… it… through positive action that… Is it through positive action that one prevents? |
14:30 | K: No, I… Don’t you think sex, fear, security and all those are, can be understood if we could get to the root of imitation? |
14:48 | Q: Yes. |
14:49 | K: You follow what I mean? Under rather than over. |
14:53 | Q: Yes; yes. Yes. |
14:56 | K: If we could get at the root of it and expose it verbally, intellectually, which is verbally - you know? - expose it to ourselves and see what happens. |
15:11 | Q: May I ask a question? To see the problems, we speak all the time of fear, imitation, desire, time, but we see that they are the same face of the only one process and the problem is to see the process in the instant it’s working, is doing all these things, but my difficulty is that I have to see this process. Who is it do the analyzes of this process? This process is a working of the mind that is doing fear, that is doing imitation and so on. Who is... who has to... who or what has to see this process in action, living, the mind itself? Now, the mind to be the observer must be quiet. But the mind to have something to observe has to create all these things. How can the mind be in this same moment quiet and... (inaudible) because this observation has to... taking place in the same moment. I cannot have an examination of the past, but this is a dead things. So my mind that is the observer has to observe something that is done by itself. So it seems to me that the observer is the mind, but when I am at the second step, I see that the mind cannot observe because it is in agitation. So who is the observer? What is the observer? |
17:00 | K: You’re saying, sir, aren’t you, if I understand rightly, the observer is so agitated, so chattering, so noisy that he can’t see, and so the problems becomes confused… |
17:32 | Q: That is not all. The mind, the observer, the mind is agitated, but to observe he must be agitated, because the material of the observation is the product of the agitation. |
17:51 | K: So you’re saying this is a vicious circle. |
17:58 | Q: Yes, a vicious circle. That’s right. |
18:01 | K: And then what? How to break the vicious circle? Is that it? |
18:13 | Q: Yes, that is it. |
18:23 | Q: Because even when we say we are second-hand - suppose we say we are second-hand, it’s a fact - isn’t there a condemnation already, thinking that we oughtn’t to be? |
19:13 | K: Ah, no... |
19:15 | Q: Yes, well, that’s... |
19:16 | Q: (Inaudible). |
19:17 | K: I understand all that, sir. I understand. That’s exactly the same thing... (inaudible). |
19:26 | Q: Yes. |
19:29 | K: Then what are we… what will you do? All right… |
19:35 | Q: I stop. |
19:36 | K: No, no... |
19:37 | Q: I don’t know what to do. |
19:41 | K: Let’s wait a minute. You find yourself in a vicious circle and when, as Suarez points out, as others pointed out earlier, which is, that the moment you say, ‘I’m second-hand’, in that very word second-hand there is a sense of condemnation, so you’re in a vicious circle. Right? Then what is one to do? What will you do? |
20:15 | Q: I become lazy and I don’t know what to do. |
20:25 | K: No, no, no, no. Attendez; attendez; attendez. You’re are an electric engineer, you have a problem - you don’t become lazy. You don’t say, ‘Well, I can’t solve it’ - you’ll lose your job. So you put your mind to it. You put your whole energy into it, don’t you, to find out what to do. |
20:46 | Q: But I have a way, I have manuals that help me. I have something. |
20:52 | K: No, no, no; wait a minute sir. You know all that. You know the observer is agitated, memory, you know all the whole tricks of it. Then what will you do from then on? What is your action? What is your attitude? What will take place? You don’t just say, ‘I’ll become lazy.’ |
21:14 | Q: But I’m... if I am in a vicious circle I can try and tackle it from another way although I don’t know if it will succeed or not, trying to find out what freedom is. |
21:32 | K: But I can’t. I don’t know what freedom is. How can a slave know what is freedom unless he breaks through? Are we are asking wrong questions? |
21:52 | Q: Yes. |
22:00 | Q: I think what we actually do is that we stumble and try and find some other way out but it’s always the same process. |
22:11 | K: Therefore realizing when you stumble, twist and… - you know? - all the rest of it... You see, you’re not meeting my point. |
22:19 | Q: But that’s actually what you do. |
22:25 | K: Yes. |
22:27 | Q: But there is not an answer... (inaudible) simple question: Can the mind observe itself working? |
22:36 | K: Why can’t it? |
22:38 | DP: We can see when we’re jealous, can’t we? |
22:44 | Q: I don’t know. |
22:46 | K: Oh, I think that’s fairly simple, don’t you? When I’m jealous I know when I’m jealous. |
22:56 | Q: But not really in this deepness you speak about sometime. This deepness to understand, to see the process in action... |
23:06 | K: Yes sir. |
23:08 | Q: ...need a quiet mind. |
23:10 | K: Ortholani, do listen, sir, for a minute; just listen. You have an electric problem. You bring all your knowledge to it, all your experience, you consult, you read, you try to solve it. Right? Here what will you do? You try this, you try that - you follow? - and you come to the same… and you’re caught in there and you say, ‘By Jove, I can’t move, because my mind is agitated, my mind is this... If I do something else it will come back to the…’ and so on and so on and so on. Then you have reached... - that’s the point - have you reached the end of the thing? Have you reached the end of your tether? You know that phrase? |
24:12 | Q: Yes. |
24:13 | K: The English phrase. How do you put it in Italian or French? |
24:21 | Many: (Inaudible). |
24:22 | K: En Italiano, como se dice? |
24:27 | Q: (Italian). |
24:28 | DP: (Inaudible)... your capacity, it means really. |
24:32 | K: No... You can’t… |
24:35 | Q: At your wits end. |
24:37 | K: Wits end. You have come to an issue, you can’t solve it. You know? |
24:50 | Many: (Inaudible). |
24:51 | Q: (Italian). |
24:53 | K: (Italian). |
24:54 | Q: (Italian). |
24:56 | Q: In a closed way. (Italian). |
24:59 | K: No sir. No, no. (Italian). You have... Look, I have a problem. I try this, try that, try the other thing, talk, discuss, go through... and I say I’ve reached, I can’t do anymore. Apparently we don’t come to that point. |
25:22 | Q: No. |
25:23 | Q: If problem is a problem, if it has a solution, otherwise it’s not a problem. |
25:32 | K: No; no... Wait a minute, sir. No. Analogically it is so. A problem means... if there is an answer, there’s no problem. |
25:44 | DP: It doesn’t help us, though. |
25:52 | K: Our problem is to be free of imitation - take that; take that - I don’t know the answer. I don’t know how to set about it. I have said... I’ve done various things to be free from imitation, but I see I’m soaked with it. It’s in my blood, in my… every part of being is second-hand. Then what? Where is the answer to that? But the problem remains. You see, that’s what I want to get at this morning. I wanted to talk... I want to go into it a little bit... |
26:45 | Q: But does there have to be and answer? |
26:53 | K: Ah, no; no, no, no. You will see in a minute. If I have reached the end of the tether - you follow what I mean? Now you know what that English phrase is; I don’t know if the others understand it. (French). |
27:31 | Q: (French). |
27:32 | Q: (French) |
27:33 | K: (French) En Italiano. (Laughter) |
27:36 | Q: (Italian). |
27:37 | K: (Italian). |
27:38 | Q: (Italian)... something at the end... (inaudible). |
27:40 | Many: (Inaudible). |
27:41 | K: Si, I understand. But is that...? No, I don’t think that is the equivalent meaning. |
27:46 | Q: No. I don’t think so. |
27:49 | K: No, no. I don’t feel it is that. |
27:53 | Q: In French, yes. (French) |
27:55 | K: (French), yes, but what is the Italian word for that? Senora? Senora? (Laughter) |
28:01 | Q: (Italian) |
28:02 | Many: (Inaudible). |
28:03 | Q: Italians don’t have this problem... (inaudible). (Laughter) |
28:06 | Q: Yes, it’s correct. It does not… it’s not a part of the Italian problem (laughs). |
28:17 | K: Oh, yes... (Laughter) |
28:21 | K: Or in the Italian language. We understand now. You see, I have gone... - I’m talking as one; not I - X; one has gone though religion, through nationalism, through communism, through... trying to get rid of fear. One has done everything in every direction and there is no... and there is nothing beyond. I can’t get beyond that. Intellectually I can theorize, I can go into all kinds of intellectual amusements. At the end of it I see I’m still there at the end; reached my tether. Now, what happens? That’s what I want to get at? Have we come to that point? |
29:26 | Q: No, no. |
29:27 | K: That’s what I’m trying to get at. |
29:30 | Q: No, we haven’t. |
29:32 | K: Why not? |
29:33 | Q: Because our very way of dealing with the fact... the way we think is already an imitation. |
29:39 | K: Ah, no, no, no. Don’t complicate it. Don’t complicate it. |
29:45 | Q: To reach that state we must be wordless but we are… (inaudible). |
29:51 | K: No, no, no, no, no, no. You’re complicating the thing. Look, sir, there has been a war and despair, anguish, misery, atom bomb, Khrushchev - you know? - the whole thing and there is no answer. So one goes blind and joins the church or becomes existentialist or something or other. Now, what I’m trying to get at is, if one has reached the end of things or not? No? |
30:27 | Q: No. |
30:29 | K: Why not? What’s the matter? |
30:34 | Q: If we had we would have asked ourselves the question before. |
30:37 | K: Ah? |
30:38 | Q: If we had realized it we wouldn’t be… (inaudible). |
30:42 | K: Ah, no, you are misunderstanding my point. Why hasn’t an intelligent man - assume we are intelligent - reached the end of the tether? |
30:52 | Q: Sir, it’s because if you reach the end of your tether you are faced with the problem which is so unpleasant that you don’t like… |
31:00 | K: No, wait. Why not? Why not? Mr Berry, please go into it, sir. Why not? Stick to that point. |
31:06 | Q: Why not what? |
31:07 | K: Why haven’t you reached the end of your tether? Artistically, musically, intellectually, no more Huxleys, no more… - you follow what I mean? - you have reached the end of it. Why haven’t you reached it? |
31:23 | Q: But all these activities are... they’re running out. |
31:25 | K: It doesn’t matter, running out and then running in and also coming to the point there where you can’t go beyond. You follow what I mean? |
31:34 | Q: Yes. |
31:35 | K: You have run out. As far as you can go that side and the run inside and you have reached that place. So you’ve reached outward tether and inward tether. If you say, ‘I’ve not’, I say for God’s sake, what’s happened to you? You follow my point? What’s happened to you as a human being, who has lived here, struggled, fought, gone into all the misery of the world, either in it or observed it, why haven’t you reached that point? What’s wrong? |
32:09 | Q: Because the moment you reach that point, you run off it again. |
32:11 | K: No, no, no; you can’t... |
32:12 | Q: (Inaudible). |
32:13 | K: You can’t run off. |
32:16 | Q: Because there is always hope for finding one way out. |
32:20 | K: No, you’ve tried. You’ve tried ten different ways. You have exercised your mind, you have discussed, you have talked, you have read, you have gone to church, you have done everything and there is no way out. |
32:33 | Q: And then you’re faced with the fact. |
32:36 | K: Therefore... Ah, have you reached the tether? That’s my point. |
32:41 | Q: I know. |
32:42 | Q: (Inaudible). |
32:43 | Q: (Inaudible). |
32:44 | K: No, don’t... don’t... no. You see, you are missing my... you’re avoiding my question. |
32:48 | Q: We don’t know when we reach it. |
32:50 | Q: Because really I am interested, I am enjoying all these thing that I say verbally... |
32:55 | K: (Inaudible). |
32:56 | Q: ...verbally don’t... (inaudible). |
32:58 | K: Then enjoy it, then go after it. You see, I don’t think we are meeting my point. You see sir, a mature mind must have reached that tether, end of the tether. It has finished with church, it has finished with communism, it has finished with nationalism, with gods, with churches, with … - you follow? - reaching the end of the tether without despair, without hope. You follow what I mean? |
33:48 | Q: Yes. |
33:49 | K: If you have reached the end with despair, then you are seeking hope; and if you reach the end with hope, then you want something more, therefore you are looking, looking, looking to – wait - to find an answer. |
34:08 | Q: Yes; absolutely. |
34:09 | K: But you can’t. There is no answer. |
34:11 | Q: Absolutely. |
34:12 | K: Which is what I call you’re reaching the end. You go around all the museums - listen to me for a minute - you go around all the museums, you know all about the art, you have painted, dabbled in it and you say, ‘For God’s sake, it’s still... it isn’t good enough.’ Whether it is Rembrandt or Picasso or anyone, it isn’t good enough; or music or any... You have come to the end of your tether, without despair, without hope. And I say to you if you haven’t come to that, what has happened to you? |
35:09 | Q: You’re dead. |
35:10 | K: Ah, no, no, no. Don’t so easily answer it. You see? That’s no answer, sir. (French). |
35:15 | Q: I agree. I apologize. |
35:16 | K: No, please don’t apologize. We’re not... Why haven’t you reached that point? |
35:18 | Q: I think because you haven’t gone far enough with this, surely. You just keep on going... |
35:23 | K: Now, wait, wait; wait, sir. Mr Greg, just a minute. If you have reached... if you have understood in one direction - you follow? - then you have understood the whole thing. |
35:36 | Q: Yes. |
35:37 | K: I don’t have to go through all… You...? You’re getting what I’m talking? |
35:43 | Q: Yes. |
35:45 | K: If you have reached the end of your tether, through art - say, painting - which has interested you; you have looked, you have painted, you have gone to museums and say... at the end of all this, you say, ‘Sorry, it isn’t good enough. It doesn’t matter who it is, it isn’t good enough.’ Then what happens? One… the understanding of one facet of life will bring you the understanding for all the other facets. You haven’t to go through them all. It’s finished. |
36:24 | Q: But doesn’t this mean that the process which took you in to, say, the study of art, is exactly the same as it would be if you went into any other? |
36:36 | K: That’s it. That’s what I’m saying. Therefore you’re finished with all the other. You don’t have to go through them all. You get what I mean? |
36:43 | Q: Yes; yes. |
36:44 | K: Now, why haven’t you reached it? |
36:46 | Q: We are still trying to find an answer. |
36:52 | K: No sir; no, no, no. Are you? Are you still…? |
36:56 | Q: (Inaudible). |
36:57 | K: Look, here is a problem of imitation. Am I trying to find an answer how not to be imitative? |
37:05 | Q: But when there is a problem… |
37:07 | K: Oh, for God’s sake, then it’s so childish, how not be imitative. |
37:12 | Q: There comes in a sense of boredom, surely. I mean, this is Mr Berry’s point, that when you get to that point, you’re bored; you’ve got nothing to do. |
37:20 | K: Ah, no, no… |
37:21 | Q: (Inaudible). |
37:22 | Q: There is the thing… |
37:24 | K: No. You have come to that point because you have done everything. |
37:28 | Q: Ah... |
37:29 | K: Not because you are bored at the end... |
37:33 | Q: No, no, no, but you’ve done everything and you’ve got nothing left to do. |
37:39 | K: Come to that point. |
37:44 | Q: Well, you just remain bored … |
37:50 | Many: (Inaudible). |
37:51 | K: Find out. Don’t say you get bored. How do you know? |
38:03 | Q: This is the beginning of salvation. |
38:07 | K: Oh, oh... (Laughter) |
38:10 | Q: (French). |
38:11 | K: (Inaudible). Why haven’t you come to it, sir? Don’t say (French). You see my point? |
38:26 | Q: Yes. |
38:27 | Q: All right, you drop all these things. |
38:29 | K: Ah... I didn’t say drop all these things. I said why is it a grown-up man, as we are, why haven’t we come to the end? (Inaudible)... has to make money, that’s all right. One has to have a house, that’s… but inwardly, psychologically, the end. |
38:54 | Q: We haven’t seen it very clearly. |
38:58 | K: Ah? |
38:59 | Q: Maybe it’s because a lack of clarity. |
39:02 | K: No. |
39:03 | Q: I was wondering, with the end of what? |
39:05 | K: End of art, end of self expression, end of music, end of seeking God, end of... (inaudible) end. I mean, like a man trying to find peace in this world through building up army. For God’s sake, we have done this for the last five thousand years, we are still at it and so you come to that. You say, ‘No, that’s not the way.’ |
39:50 | Q: (French). |
39:52 | K: Bein; bien, then you say, ‘No, that’s not…’ you stop it. |
39:56 | Q: But is there a fallacy here? I mean, you say, ‘Why haven’t we come to the end?’ Then we immediately go off and try and find some answer to this question. |
40:04 | K: There is no answer. I am asking you as a man, why, if you have lived in this world, read newspaper - you know? - you say, ‘For God’s sake, there is…’ |
40:16 | Q: Yes, but you ask me and then I’m stumped. |
40:19 | K: Are you stumped? Or - wait, wait - are you trying to find an answer? |
40:26 | Q: That’s... (inaudible). |
40:28 | K: You are stymied. You follow? |
40:30 | Q: Yes. |
40:41 | Q: Isn’t the urge for action something also fundamental which… (inaudible)? I mean to say, where does action begin? |
40:50 | K: No. No sir. I’ve done good work; I have gone to a monastery. I don’t have enter a monastery. I’ve seen people who have done social work, social reform, gone through monasteries, political work, going to the village… paint… done, done, act, act, act. We have all done it. If I haven’t done personally, I see somebody else do it; that’s good enough. |
41:10 | Q: Yes, but we come to a… What can be? What can be… if there is a real urge for action, what can that action or that expression be? |
41:19 | K: I’m not talking about action. I don’t know anything about what action is. |
41:23 | Q: It’s about expression. |
41:24 | K: I am not talking about that. |
41:26 | Q: You’re not talking about it but it exists. The urge for action exists. |
41:29 | K: I’ve watched. I will act. I go to my office, or I… I act, but I’m talking of action which has led me nowhere. |
41:43 | Q: But I think that action cannot cease. |
41:48 | K: What are you…? |
41:49 | Q: It can... (inaudible). |
41:51 | K: Sir, what are you saying? I am... Look, let’s see now. I join a church and I see no good. Then I go to the communist party, that’s no good. Then I become an existentialist - no. And then I say I must become a painter. Then I do some... I’m acting, acting, acting, acting all the time. I can’t help acting. |
42:12 | Q: But can I stop acting? |
42:14 | K: I can only stop acting in that deep sense of the word when I say all action has no meaning anymore. |
42:22 | Q: Certainly. Then? That’s... (inaudible). |
42:23 | K: But Suarez doesn’t mean that. He says, ‘I have plans. I should act.’ |
42:26 | Q: (Inaudible). |
42:27 | K: But you are... when you have acted so far for so many years, where has it led you? |
42:40 | Q: Nowhere. |
42:42 | Q: You see, you get caught in this problem, to me, it seems, of acting here. |
42:50 | K: Yes sir, we are acting here. Surely. |
43:00 | Q: Well, looking at myself, Krishnaji, it seems to me that to come to the end, what… there has to be a great deal of energy or passion and the fact is that in daily life one’s passion gets diluted. |
43:29 | K: My dear chap, we’re... No, you’re missing my… you’re not… Look I want to talk this morning... not about... we have sufficiently... (inaudible) passion; sufficiently imitation. We’ll discuss fear tomorrow, another day. Here is a problem: I have meditated; looked at the end of my nose, breathe - you know? - right breathing; I have done everything and I see this terrible danger of being… mesmerizing myself into a peculiar states. I see all this. I’ve watched people - you follow? - I’ve discussed with people who have meditated for twenty-five years; at the end of it, when we say, ‘Look, what you have done is self-hypnosis,’ they say ‘Quite right. I realize it is now.’ So at the end of meditation, at the end of joining a church, family, you... everything, at the end of it of it say, ‘For God’s sake, what is it all about?’ You haven’t reached that point and I say why haven’t you? Can we just keep to that this morning? |
44:52 | Q: Yes. |
44:54 | K: When I can go to a concert every day, and what? |
45:03 | Q: May I reverse the question? |
45:11 | K: Yes... (inaudible). Yes sir, of course. Don’t ask me. |
45:16 | Q: I have reversed it. |
45:17 | K: What is the reverse? |
45:19 | Q: It’s a question. |
45:23 | K: I don’t quite catch it. |
45:29 | Q: It’s practically impossible, isn’t it, sir, if you’re in the company of another person or other persons, not to act. I find it, if I get out on my... physically on my own, then it doesn’t... this problem doesn’t occur. I mean… |
46:00 | K: (Inaudible)... I think we are not meeting each other, Mr Craig. |
46:03 | Q: When… the instinct with other people is so strong to act. |
46:17 | K: Of course it is, and then what? Sir, you go to India and you see all these social reformers, by the thousand, and then what? That isn’t the way out of all life. I see a monk, I see a… who gets up at two-thirty in the morning, repeats prayers... Follow? |
47:01 | Q: You see, all these actions are done because he wants somebody else to observe them. |
47:06 | K: No, no. I want to read because I love Jesus. |
47:10 | Q: Yes, but even there, there’s some kind of hoping to make impression on God, even. I mean .. |
47:16 | K: Oh, I... agree, but - wait a minute - I do all these things and at the end of it all I say, ‘For... what...?’ At the end of it, I haven’t found anything real. You follow? I act, I paint, I express myself, I write poems, I do this, that, ten hundred things. I haven’t done it, but I see others do it. That’s good enough for me. |
47:42 | Q: Yes, yes. |
47:43 | K: You follow what I mean? |
47:44 | Q: Yes. |
47:45 | K: I don’t have to join a monastery to find out how silly it is. |
47:48 | Q: Yes. |
47:49 | K: So I’ve done all those things. At the end of it I say, ‘What?’ |
47:56 | Q: You have to ask who is the I who is doing this. |
48:03 | K: Oh, no, no, no, no. |
48:05 | Q: You cannot just leave it at ‘What?’ I can’t… (inaudible). |
48:08 | K: Now, have you come to that point? That’s what I want to find out. I want to drive it. (Laughter) |
48:20 | Q: (Inaudible). |
48:27 | K: I fall in love, I fall out of it, and married, divorced - you follow? - go through all this. At the end of it I say, ‘My God...’ There is death - I haven’t understood that. I haven’t understood life. What? |
48:46 | Q: Yes, but you can’t just stop at ‘What?’ |
48:55 | K: Stop. |
48:57 | Q: Stop. |
48:59 | K: I call such a mind a mature mind - you follow? - that has come to the end of things and it’s watching. See what happens. It doesn’t commit suicide, run off into an asylum or - you know? - any of those stupid things. I don’t see, unless one comes to that extraordinary point of... You follow? |
49:32 | Q: Yes. |
49:33 | K: Complete ‘no answer’. You say, ‘Well I’ll act; I will paint, I will…’ - wipe all that silly stuff out. I don’t see how you can go further. You see you’ve got rid of fear, all right - let’s assume one has... - and then what? Our mind is just as petty at the end of it. Perhaps not; well, I mean... So unless one has come to this sense... You see, not despair, that’s what generally happens to… |
50:16 | Q: I mean, there seems to be intense curiosity; you wonder what. |
50:20 | K: Have we come to that point? Then you won’t ask that question, ‘Who am I who is reaching the end? Who is it?’ We have gone through all the analysis. You follow? |
50:35 | Q: Yes. |
50:36 | K: I can analyze as well as you can analyze or any analyst can analyse. We have finished with analysts. We have finished with this. We have finished with that. We have gone through meditation, we have gone through this and... You follow? I have seen dozens of people go through all this. Why should I go through all this? So I come to that point. I say, ‘I’ve seen it and what more?’ Not ‘what more?’ - I have reached the abyss and stop there. |
51:03 | Q: I mean, implied in that is also the fact that you have thoroughly explored the anatomy of the mind, of the self. That’s also... (inaudible). |
51:20 | K: Perhaps; perhaps. I don’t have to go through all of it. I can; perhaps I can. |
51:24 | Q: That can be done also. |
51:26 | K: Yes, I have done it. I’ve watched, I’ve read few books - you follow? - I personally haven’t read it, but I have listened to people, I have… people have talked to me and I’ve gone into myself. I have finished - you follow? - inside myself and at the end of it all I come to a point when I’m completely empty. There is no movement - you follow? - because I’ve done all the movements. |
51:56 | Q: This will be the finishing all the positive of thoughts. |
52:03 | K: Ah, maybe. I don’t... No, no, don’t bring in the positive, finished or any… |
52:12 | Q: It’s incredibly hard to stay on ‘What?’ |
52:16 | K: Stay, sir. Find out what is implied, whether you have really gone… reached that point. You see, like yesterday, Dr Ortholani said, ‘How am I, who am not aware, how am I to I get... to be aware?’ You follow? He was asking me. You follow? He didn’t say, ‘Now, why am I not aware? What’s wrong?’ You didn’t put your mind, your heart to find out. Sir, I met an old sanyasi. You know what a sanyasi is? |
53:21 | Q: Yes. |
53:22 | K: (Inaudible)... man who is... That’s a Sanskrit word, who... a person who has renounced the world and all the rest of it, who has taken sanyasa, which means - you know? - renounce the world. All right. He left when he was fifteen so... - I can talk about it him because you don’t know him - he left his family when he was fifteen. He went from one ashrama - you know what ashrama is? |
53:49 | Q: Yes. |
53:50 | K: ...from one religious body to another, all over India, from north to south, east to west, Gandhi... – oh, no - everything. One day somebody brought him and he said, ‘I have done all these things, starved, fasted, austerity, discipline, control, no sex, no family, half a meal a day’ - you follow? – ‘gone through hell to find God.’ And we talked. And he wanted to know whether... if there is such thing as God. He hasn’t found him, after all these... - he was ninety, I think he was. I don’t remember; an enormous age - and he hadn’t found him. ‘I have done yoga and I have…’ - you follow? – ‘twisted my neck, and done every darn thing one possibly could.’ At the end of it he hadn’t found it. He said, ‘I’ve come across people who believe, who have such tremendous faith, who have such tremendous passion in their faith, but that isn’t the real thing at all. That is just the second-hand people who believe.’ And... you see, now... and he said to me, ‘I have come to the end. I’m now... perhaps I have a couple of years left and I will die. I’ve reached my journey, but I haven’t found it.’ And he said, ‘What am I to do?’ He’s still thinking of doing. I don’t know if you can… He didn’t say… We discussed; we went into it for a couple of days and... Ah, leave him alone. We’re always thinking what to do. We never say, ‘I can’t do any more’ and fold our hands and wait. But you can wait with laziness, with impatience, with expectancy, with despair, hope - that’s not waiting. You follow what I mean? |
56:43 | Q: But you can’t just say, ‘I can’t do any more.’ There are still avenues. |
56:49 | K: Oh, I’ve tried the... (inaudible). All the people have tried it. |
56:53 | Q: But some of the people maybe think about… |
56:56 | K: Ah, I don’t... I question it. If they say, ‘I’ve found it through this way’, I say nonsense. |
57:04 | Q: No, how can you say that? |
57:10 | K: I’ll tell you; I’ll tell you. I’ll reason with you. |
57:12 | Q: All right. |
57:13 | K: It’s a partial. |
57:14 | Q: Is what? |
57:15 | K: It’s a partial thing. It’s a fragmentary approach. |
57:19 | Q: (Inaudible)... you have historic, you have personages. Just in terms of common sense, you don’t say they didn’t exist. For example, Ramama Maharishi. |
57:32 | K: I don’t know these birds. |
57:34 | Q: Ramana Maharshi... (inaudible). |
57:36 | K: I don’t know them. I don’t want to know them. |
57:42 | Q: I see. |
57:44 | K: Why should I know them? |
57:47 | Q: I see. All right. |
57:49 | K: (Laughs) No, I’m not being rude or insincere or sarcastic. Why should I know about any... whether somebody has reached, somebody has not reached? I don’t want to know what they have reached. I want to find out. |
57:56 | Q: All right. I see that. |
57:58 | Q: Sir, if I may so, I felt I reached that end of the rope fully, completely and when that happened, then I went into… something came into being which was beyond my understanding. |
58:15 | K: Ah, ah... Sorry sir. It won’t be beyond your understanding. You can’t play with words like this, ‘beyond your understanding’... |
58:22 | Q: (Inaudible). |
58:23 | K: Anything that might happen, hypnotized, take possession of, your old unconscious taking possession of a form of... You see… |
58:29 | Q: But I came to that point. |
58:31 | K: I question it. |
58:33 | Q: I fully feel I came to that point. |
58:37 | K: I don’t know,.. You may, sir. I don’t want to go... personally... I don’t want to enter into a personal argument about this. But you see, sir, when you reach that point there is no… something takes place because you have destroyed, abolished, cut everything. Sorry. |
59:05 | Q: Yes, the person you’re speaking of is one who has put aside every possible authority. |
59:13 | K: Sure. |
59:14 | Q: And who is was really going so… (inaudible). |
59:20 | K: Otherwise what authority is blindness? It has no meaning. Ramana Maharishi or Jesus or Buddha or whoever it is. |
59:28 | Q: (Inaudible)... possible come to the end because he puts aside all authority and... (inaudible) nobody else to look to. There’s nobody to look to. |
59:44 | K: (Inaudible). |
59:45 | Q: It’s impossible to say that maybe there’s some avenue I haven’t explored. I see that. |
59:46 | K: Sir, once I reject authority at the beginning, I’ve rejected the whole world. |
59:50 | Q: Isn’t that lack of humility? |
59:52 | K: Oh no. On the contrary, it is the very essence of humility is to deny authority. Sorry. |
1:00:09 | Q: So you do nothing and wait, but you’re not waiting for anything, are you? |
1:00:16 | K: Ah, not waiting. Sir, sir, you see, you’re all… Look sir, take that one thing. He talked about authority. Have I reached the end of authority? Jesus, Buddha, you, I - no authority. You follow? And I really mean no authority, either externally or inwardly - no authority. Have you reached that point? Any of us? |
1:01:00 | Q: It’s impossible to say yes. |
1:01:04 | Q: Of course. |
1:01:05 | K: Ah? |
1:01:06 | Q: It’s impossible to answer that question. |
1:01:08 | K: Why not? |
1:01:10 | Q: It’s truth. |
1:01:11 | K: Why not? |
1:01:12 | Q: It could be done now. |
1:01:15 | K: Why not? |
1:01:16 | Q: You can’t because… |
1:01:17 | K: Go on, Mr Craig, why not? |
1:01:26 | Q: Because the very yes... the word yes indicates a… |
1:01:31 | K: No, no, no, no, I mean a little more than that. I mean beyond the word. When I... say for instance, for me, there is no authority, and I know... I can… I know what I mean. I can tell you exactly what I mean. There is no half measure about it. Either my experiences, memories, my desires, all that, or outwardly. I have no authority, therefore there is no obedience to something which is a vision, which is a hope, a despair - nothing. I don’t see how when you discuss no authority and play around with it, why you haven’t come to that point when you say, ‘All right, I’m going to tackle this one thing’ - you follow sir? – ‘and go the very end of it.’ |
1:02:32 | Q: One reason is there hasn’t been the initial decision to do it alone. |
1:02:45 | K: No, not initial decision. I can see... how can I... it doesn’t matter who it is, Buddha or Pathanjali or somebody else, all the Indian gods, Indian saints, how do I know that they are right? I don’t know whether they are right or wrong. I don’t take them as authority. I don’t know. So I said, ‘Good morning, gentlemen,’ and I’ll find out. Not that I... I’ll rely on myself, but I’m not going to obey, either my own instincts - you follow? - my own experiences, my own thought, my own desires, nor I am going to take outwards desires and outward authorities. |
1:03:25 | Q: I see. You can do that without even trying; they’re theirs, I can see that. |
1:03:28 | K: I can push them all out. |
1:03:29 | Q: Without even trying... (inaudible). |
1:03:32 | K: Have we done it? I should think that is the very essence of humility. You follow? From there you start. You may go wrong, you may make a mistake, you may take the wrong turn or right... Go... find out. You see, it may be that we have stopped flowing - you follow what I mean? - flowing like that river. Moving, moving, moving. |
1:04:35 | Q: Isn’t… doesn’t the very trying to find out have to stop? |
1:04:41 | K: Everything… of course, sir. |
1:04:44 | Q: I mean, I think that one gets to this… |
1:04:46 | K: Of course, sir. But you see, I may at the beginning - you know? - I just say, ‘By Jove, that man says I must stop trying’. I’ll stop trying, and I become a sack with empty air, nothing inside. |
1:05:05 | Q: The question of completely putting aside authority is at the crux of the difficulty. |
1:05:18 | K: Part of it. But it all depends how you put aside authority, and in the modern children, in some parts of the world, say ‘No more parental authority.’ They do what they want. That’s not... You follow? That’s delinquency, that’s revolt, that is... (inaudible) it leads nowhere. But to understand the whole anatomy of authority - you follow? - the inward authority, when you have rejected the outer; the authority of your experience, which is obviously also the result of the outer. So when you deny authority it means both the outer and the inner. Then sir, your question at the beginning, of respect disappears. Then I respect everybody. You follow? I listen to everybody. |
1:06:34 | Q: Yes, but I was pointing out something… |
1:06:38 | K: I understand. I understand. I’m just saying. Then I listen to you; then I listen to the birds, I listen to the cook. I find out. Every whisper means something. You follow? |
1:06:50 | Q: Yes. |
1:06:55 | K: Now sir, where are we? If you want to discuss authority, outward and inward, we will do it. Logically, sanely - you know? - healthily, step-by-step, outward, inward, historical as well as personal, collective as well as individual, and so on and so on and so on, and at the end of it are you out of it? You follow what I mean? Or do you say, ‘Well, I haven’t quite understood it.’ Then let’s tackle it, so that at the end of a discussion you are out. On... you say, ‘Sorry, I like my authorites’ - you follow? – ‘it’s rather nice to enjoy my own authority instead of Hitler’s authority,’ it’s all right then. But at the end of ten years to play with that word - you follow? - it becomes rather silly. |
1:08:07 | Q: (Inaudible). |
1:08:08 | K: Comment? |
1:08:09 | Q: Ten before ten. |
1:08:11 | K: Oh, it doesn’t matter... (inaudible). So you see… (inaudible). |
1:08:24 | Q: (Inaudible). I’m sorry. |
1:08:31 | K: (Inaudible)... right, sir. |
1:08:38 | Q: The sense of authority comes back in again at low physical ebb, I find. |
1:08:44 | K: Yes, I obey a policeman. I buy a stamp, tax. |
1:08:48 | Q: If you’re very tired, for instance, physically tired from walking or something like this, it’s… this thing, this old feeling of attaching yourself to any form of security comes back in straight away. |
1:09:01 | K: We understand all that. So you know when to eat, when not to eat, when to... (inaudible), when it is... (inaudible). You follow? |
1:09:08 | Q: Yes. I mean, if you’re feeling perfectly well and healthy then there’s no problem. I mean… |
1:09:15 | K: Yes sir; yes sir. There is a problem even if you are terribly healthy. |
1:09:20 | Q: No, no, I mean… (Laughter) |
1:09:23 | Q: Yes. |
1:09:24 | Q: Is this partly that we’re trying to get something for all time and we’re not thinking about the now? |
1:09:29 | K: No... Yes, yes. |
1:09:30 | Q: And we’re trying to solve for the future as well as for the now. |
1:09:32 | Q: I mean, we may understand this, say, completely now, but later in the day we get tired and… |
1:09:45 | K: If you understand it you understand it, not when you’re tired, when you’re not tired. (Pause) You see, sir, why haven’t you reached it, reached the end of authority? |
1:10:37 | Q: We are afraid. |
1:10:38 | K: Is that...? |
1:10:39 | Q: (Inaudible)... the complete loss of the… (inaudible). |
1:10:42 | K: Just listen to the answer; listen to the answer. We are afraid, and then what? |
1:10:49 | Q: (Inaudible). |
1:10:50 | K: Yes sir; yes sir. |
1:10:52 | Q: The me is... (inaudible). |
1:10:55 | K: Yes. And then what? |
1:10:56 | Q: (Inaudible). |
1:10:57 | K: And then what? And then what? And then what? Proceed. |
1:10:59 | Q: Ah... |
1:11:00 | K: It’s not… No, no. You see… Yes sir? |
1:11:05 | Q: It is like death, so I’m afraid. |
1:11:12 | Q: I have reached the end of authority. |
1:11:15 | K: Have you? |
1:11:18 | Q: You draw back from this abyss. I mean, it’s like a... I mean, the self, the ego clings like mad. I mean, you... there’s no… |
1:11:30 | K: Yes sir, go through all that. You see, Mr Craig, must I go through…? |
1:11:40 | Q: I can see your point; you don’t have to go through the lot to get to this at all. I can follow that. |
1:11:46 | K: Must I go through…? |
1:11:47 | Q: But when you get to that point, you suddenly draw back because of the… |
1:11:49 | K: No sir, no sir. Listen to me for two seconds. Must I go through the whole analytical process of authority? As he says, what about this gentleman? What about the other gentleman who have reached, who have said they have reached? Must I go through all these authorities to find out the futility of authority? Or at one glance, wipe... sweep it all out. And I think that’s the only way to do it, not the other way. |
1:12:31 | Q: (Inaudible). |
1:12:34 | K: Ah, no, no, don’t bring in any other words. |
1:12:45 | Q: Right. |
1:12:46 | K: Then you’re lost. |
1:12:48 | Q: Then there cannot be a man that is free from some authority and not free from some other, or it is free of the process of authority or not. |
1:12:57 | K: Free of authority. I obey the policeman - he’s an authority. I obey... I have to pay taxes and so on. There I accept authority. It has to be. |
1:13:16 | Q: It’s a practical authority. |
1:13:17 | K: It is there, I have to do it, otherwise I go to prison all the rest of it. But I will have no psychological dependence on authority on anybody. |
1:13:28 | Q: But the gentleman answer ‘Yes, I am free of authority.’ And if I have to do a reply, my reply perhaps can be ‘I am free of some authority. I am not free of some other…’ |
1:13:43 | K: No, no… |
1:13:44 | Q: That is not possible. |
1:13:45 | K: No, that’s not... |
1:13:46 | Q: Because... (inaudible) or I’m not free. |
1:13:47 | K: I can’t be free of authority of the church and be ridden by my wife. I mean, it has no meaning. |
1:13:56 | Q: So if... (inaudible) authority, he can takes one form or another, but if the process is there, there is some manifestation of authority. |
1:14:06 | K: No... Yes sir, agreed, but I am asking you... Look sir, we have discussed authority ad nauseam. You and I, you have listened to me, for I don’t know how many years, and we have analyzed it, we have dissected it, we have torn it apart, inwardly, outwardly, and then where are you at the end of it? Do you say, ‘Now, all right, I really...’? You don’t have to tell me; you know it very well. ‘I have no authority’ or ‘I have authority.’ You see, authority implies imitation - you follow? - the pattern, the idea, the example, Jesus, Ramana… Oh God, how we are ridden by all this. We reject Hitler and take on the Pope. We reject the Pope and take on somebody else. It’s all so infantile. If I reject Hitler, I’ve rejected the whole works. You follow what I mean? |
1:15:28 | Q: But authority is everywhere. When I use words, in the word is authority. |
1:15:39 | K: (Inaudible)... come on. We understand that, sir. |
1:15:43 | Q: I am… I am… |
1:15:44 | K: No, no, no. I mean, I said psychological authority. The authority of dependence, wanting some support, wanting encouragement, wanting... - you know? – you know the... Sir, don’t we know what authority means by now? (Pause) You see, sir, I’m afraid what is happening is we don’t go to the end of anything. We just go halfway and go on to something else. We never say, ‘I’m going to the end of authority’ - you follow? – ‘completely to the end.’ And if you went to the end, you won’t say then that I’m repeating myself. You follow? Now listening, I’m repeating myself about authority, ten times, a hundred times, but if you went into it, each moment you would see the significance of it, the extraordinary quality. You would keep on and on and on. I mean, like that river. You see the river, the water flowing at this point and the same water at the lower point, but it’s living. You don’t say, ‘Well, it’s the same water,’ when you look at it. You follow? You’re moving with the water. Sir, we were discussing yesterday, imitation. I don’t think we have reached the end of it, you see? We still object, ‘Oh, I must imitate when I play the piano. I must… it’s not imitation when I do something else.’ We are still… - you follow? - resisting and flowing and withholding and…We never say, “All right, I’ll go to the end of it, find out.’ You find out through my description. You follow what I mean? I’m doing the work and you just listen, but you’re not doing the work. You…Therefore, as you’re not doing the work you say, ‘Well, my dear chap, I have listened to you for forty years. You are repeating, repeating, repeating - what the heck? Say something new.’ But if you are also moving - you follow? - you will see how extraordinarily new it all is each time. So shall we tomorrow – I’d better stop - go back to this question of authority and imitation? And really go to the end of it - you follow? – analytically; not defensively. You don’t have to defend, I don’t have to attack. Analytically go into it, flow into it. All right, sirs. |