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GS62DSG6 - What is the state of the mind that discovers?
Gstaad, Switzerland - 19 August 1962
Discussion with Small Group 6



0:00 This is the sixth small group discussion with J. Krishnamurti in Gstaad, 1962.
0:09 Krishnamurti: I think we were talking yesterday, weren’t we, about idea becoming the authority – weren’t we?
0:18 Questioner: Yes, I think so.
0:20 K: I’d like to… (pause in recording) - you know? - to discover a habit.
0:27 We are caught in habits. The pattern is set and we follow it day after day, and it becomes almost automatic, from the most absurd, like picking one’s nose to the most complicated ideological pattern.
0:50 And I wonder if we ever discover anything for ourselves: discover for oneself that one is jealous - you follow what I mean?
1:38 - discover. I don’t know what that word means to you.
1:55 To uncover, to find out, to come upon it suddenly, for it to suddenly expose itself.
2:05 I think that may be what our difficulty is in these discussions.
2:14 Some of you, probably many of you have heard me talk... the speaker talk about these things over and over again, putting it in different ways, and you’ve got used to it.
2:24 And you haven’t discovered it. You follow what I mean? And what is the state which demands… what is the state of the mind which demands discovery?
2:46 Shall we discuss that a little bit? Would that be of an interest to you? Many: Yes.
2:55 K: Because I’d like to go further into it, after... lay the foundation, as it were.
3:07 Q: What you say is in have held your discussion many, many times, the discussion became an explanation for us, so we lose the possibility to deeply understand.
3:19 K: No, I only meant that… I meant that merely as a statement, not derogatory or something to be mulled over.
3:30 But - you know? - when you hear something over and over again, like Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, over and over and over again, either you enter into it with extraordinary flow, with a fullness, with a meaning, or you just… it keeps on repeating.
3:59 No, I want… I may be barking up a wrong tree but I’d like to discover, I’d like to find out what is the state of the mind that discovers - you follow what I mean?
4:21 - discovers its own habits, its own patterns, its own way of thinking - you know? - to discover itself.
4:32 I wonder…
4:33 Q: Yes sir, but we just discover one little thing.
4:38 K: No, no, it doesn’t matter, one little… What does that discovery mean? What is the state of the mind that discovers?
4:47 Q: A curiosity.
4:48 K: No, no, don’t… No, it is not. Do go slowly.
4:52 Q: You are staggered.
4:54 K: No, no. No, no, no, no.
4:59 Q: Yes, that was…
5:01 Q: Seeing the old as new, as for the first time.
5:07 K: No, please; just a minute, before you answer. No, I’m talking not what you discover; what is the state of the mind that discovers? The state of the mind, not what you discover.
5:26 Q: (French 05:43) Q: Sir…
5:29 K: You’re all too quick. You’re all much too quick with answers.
5:35 Q: Excuse me.
5:39 Q: I think what has happened to us all is… (inaudible).
5:44 K: Yes, I understand that. I understand that, madame, but I’d like to reinvestigate the state of mind that discovers.
5:53 Because if we could go into it a little bit, and I think we’ll get into somewhere else, because...
6:04 I was talking... we were talking yesterday evening, summary, and the three things: discovery…
6:15 Q: Seeing.
6:18 K: Ah?
6:21 Q: We were discussing seeing.
6:24 K: Ah, no, no, no, no, no. I was discussing with somebody yesterday. No, you weren’t there. (Laughter) K: You see, I want to get at the state of mind that is… – no, rather, I want to find out what is creation, and to find that out one has to understand this process of discovery, the process of investigation, and this discovery which is explosive – you understand? – and investigation which is not analysis, which is not a deduction or an induction but an investigation that unrolls itself – you follow? – without my pursuing, without actively taking part in it.
7:42 Don’t agree with me, please; just look into it.
7:49 Q: Can I ask one question on that? Is one conscious of this process going on as it occurs?
7:57 K: No, Mr Craig, just listen to me for two minutes, will you?
8:16 You know, it’s like discovering something, which is... you suddenly see something which you’ve never seen before.
8:31 That’s one state. And you begin to analyse, deduct - you know?
8:43 - go through all that process: examination, analysis, exploration. Right? Which... if one has gone deeply into it then you come upon something, which is, an exploration, an investigation which is not you are investigating, you’re merely observing something flowing and the flow is constantly changing, like the water.
9:04 It’s always water but it’s changing its shape, colour, its noise, its swiftness, its movement.
9:11 You follow? I want… I mean… (Italian 09:39) One has to find out what the state of discovery is.
9:33 To discover suddenly the top of a tree - you follow what I mean? - you have seen that tree hundreds of times and you pass it by, but one day you suddenly wake up and see the extraordinary thing called the top.
9:54 You follow what I mean?
10:01 Now, I want to find out what is the state of the mind that sees, that discovers.
10:08 You know, say for instance, a scientist – at least, I... one knows a few and we’ve talked about it – he discovers when all his knowledge has come to an end, a hiatus between what has been known, not knowing, and looking.
10:41 You follow? I don’t... And in that moment he discovers something which he has never seen before.
10:55 Now, we have analysed fairly thoroughly – at least, we can go more and more, but... sufficient – the process of authority, what is involved in it.
11:14 We have gone step by step round about, in and out and all the rest of it, but we haven’t discovered it.
11:23 You follow what I mean?
11:30 We have either agreed or disagreed or analysed it, and in the process of exploration there was resistance, denials and fears, and all the rest of it, and so authority, with all its extraordinary depth and surface, we have never discovered it.
11:57 I don’t know if I’m making myself clear.
12:10 That’s one state – you know? – that’s one state of the mind. The other is to watch oneself in movement and by that very watching is an investigation, is a flow which reveals without analysis.
12:44 You follow what I mean? The two states I think are different. Does all this mean anything, or nothing? Many: Yes.
12:57 Q: (Inaudible).
12:58 Q: It’s easy with jealousy, for example; jealousy…
12:59 K: To discover it.
13:01 Q: It’s very obvious.
13:09 K: No, no.
13:15 Q: To discover it.
13:18 K: No, un moment. I mean, it’s very difficult to discover it.
13:21 Q: Well...
13:22 Q: No.
13:23 Q: I don’t think so.
13:24 K: Ah, I’m going to show you in a minute. Do just listen to it quietly, two minutes. I mean by discovery of jealousy…You know...
14:03 Ah, wait a minute, I don’t want… All right, we’ll stick to jealousy. I’ll move to something else afterwards. Do you discover it or do you recognise it?
14:26 Q: It’s a perception.
14:27 K: Ah, ah... My question was… Don’t confuse it. Do you recognise it or do you discover it? Recognition is quite a different process from discovering.
14:45 Q: You recognise the manifestation of... (inaudible).
14:47 Q: You just name it. That’s it.
14:50 K: No, no... Sir, do live with it. You know what I mean? Do go into it. Don’t immediately answer it yet. I see I’m jealous and I have... what has happened when I say, ‘By Jove, I’m jealous’?
15:11 I’ve recognised it, haven’t I? Which is what? I’ve had that feeling before and that feeling has been named as jealousy and that remains as a memory, and that memory, when that feeling arises again, labels that thing as jealousy, so I recognise it.
15:46 I recognise you because I’ve known you for many years and... Which is what? My image, picture, all the rest of it, and I say, ‘That is that person.’ Do you follow?
15:55 Q: Yes.
15:56 K: That is a process of recognition, which is entirely different from discovering.
16:06 Q: Discovery would occur if that person did something inconsistent with…
16:12 K: Ah, no, no, no. No, I’m not interested in what… No, don’t introduce the person. Just a minute. I want to distinguish or separate recognition and discovery. You follow what I mean? I want to see what I do. Am I always recognising – you follow? – or discovering?
16:40 Because, you see, I want to introduce a factor of freshness, a newness, not the jaded approach of every darn thing.
16:53 You follow?
16:54 Q: That was my point, that if the person does something different…
16:55 K: Ah, no, no, not the person; I am not talking about the person.
16:58 Q: Yes I know, but I’m using it as an illustration for…
17:02 K: Yes, but get away from... if you don’t mind. I’m not talking of the person; I’m not talking of my… The state of mind – you follow? – the one that recognises and the other that discovers.
17:15 Q: You discover only something that you don’t know.
17:20 K: Wait, no, you’re going to find out some... Don’t... You’re all so quick in verbalising. Do go slow, please. You see, we have discovered something now, that recognition is not discovery.
17:36 Q: Can’t they be mixed?
17:38 K: No, no, no.
17:40 Q: No?
17:41 K: You only see something. Please don’t do something yet – mixed or not mixed.
17:52 If they mix, what happens? It is not a discovery. You have produced a mixture of discovery...
18:04 Q: Yes.
18:05 K: ...which is... Ah, there’s nothing new in that.
18:10 Q: I am going to go too quick but when I discover I don’t have a name for it, I can’t…
18:17 K: No, you... I don’t... Please, I want to stay with… a few minutes to see the difference between recognition...
18:27 the mechanism of recognition - the mechanism - and the mechanism, if there is a mechanism, to discovery.
18:37 Q: Ah.
18:39 K: At last. You’re all... You see...
18:56 I know the mechanism of recognition, and that’s how we live, that’s our habit, that’s our process.
19:06 You have insulted me and when I meet you next time that insult comes out, or flatter me - you know? - this whole process goes on.
19:15 I recognise. Is the mechanism of discovery similar to recognition or is it entirely different?
19:39 Please, I am discussing with a… I want to go into it much deeper because I want to come to something, which is, if you could go into it, it’s rather interesting.
19:53 You are following, sir?
19:57 Q: Yes. But I know only one mechanism. The other one I don’t know.
20:03 K: You don’t know. Now, how are you going to move from there to there, from the mechanism of recognition and understanding the whole mechanical process – mechanical, you know what I mean?
20:19 Not machinery but the structure. That’s right - the structure of recognition, how will you move over from that to discovery?
20:28 Don’t ask me how. You follow? Go into it a little bit.
20:45 I am jealous, I am snobbish, I want a collection of well-known people in my mind – you know?
20:53 - all the rest of the childish, idiotic, nonsense that goes on with all of us.
21:01 I’m jealous. I know the machinery of recognition about jealousy - right? - memory, naming... No, first the feeling arises, then I give it a name, and that name remains in my memory, and the next time it comes into being, that feeling, immediately I recognise it by that word.
21:29 I say, ‘That’s jealousy.’ All right. I know the mechanism of it. Now, how do I… what is the mechanism of discovery? Must it be free from recognition?
21:38 Q: Yes.
21:39 Q: Absolutely.
21:40 K: Why do you say that?
21:41 Q: Obviously we’re recognising now, otherwise we would have discovered this.
21:46 K: No, no, no, no. Do go slowly. They say it is different - why?
21:53 Q: It has to be calm... (inaudible).
22:03 K: Oh, good God, no. You see how you’re all… you are again beginning to achieve a result: ‘You have to be calm’ – then I…
22:11 Q: Then you see.
22:12 K: You’re not playing with me. You’re not moving with me. You’re coming into states. I don’t want to achieve a state. I know the mechanism of recognition. I want to find out if there is a process, a mechanism of discovery; or there may be no mechanism at all.
22:45 I think there is no mechanism. For recognition there is only mechanism. Now, how am I, who is used to recognising, always recognising, recognising, to jump from that to this so that I say, ‘By Jove…’?
23:08 Though I give it a name as jealousy it’s something new. You follow? Now, how do I get into that state of discovery? How will you do it, sir?
23:35 Q: I don’t think you can inhibit the process of recognition.
23:53 K: No, I said that. I said I can recognise but yet discover, which is not the mixture of the two.
24:04 Q: But the recognition comes first.
24:06 K: Ah, no. May not. How do you know?
24:09 Q: In my experience.
24:10 K: What do you mean?
24:14 Q: Well, I recognise a feeling like resentment and then I say... this naming process and recognition process, I’ve done it so often, I’m tired with it, I’m going to look at the thing without…
24:26 I’m going to look at it directly. And then you encounter the feeling as something that’s not recognisable and it’s a very strange thing.
24:39 K: You may be right, sir. I don’t quite understand.
24:45 Q: Can the mechanism of recognition be stopped?
24:48 K: Oh no; that would be quite insane, wouldn’t it? If didn’t recognise you and I have to recognise you each day, say, ‘You are Dr Ortholani’ each day, I’d be silly.
25:03 Q: Yes, but are the two states… can the two states be in the same time?
25:11 K: No, no. You see, you are trying to get at... I want… I wish you would… a little more… How shall we put this?
25:25 Q: So, sir, when I said mixed, I meant one leads to the other, because if you… (inaudible).
25:31 K: Or does it lead, madame… does one lead to the other or one has to drop, in the sense, keep it far away, understand it, put it away there and then move away from it to discover?
25:41 Q: Yes.
25:42 K: So that doesn’t lead to this.
25:43 Q: No, but…
25:44 K: Put that away, lock it up. Use it; that is necessary, otherwise I’d be quite insane. I would have to ask a policeman every day where the road to my house was. That would be too silly. So…
25:58 Q: Just in a very small way I have experienced it.
26:00 K: No. How did you experience that discovery? Was it the tail end of recognition?
26:09 Q: No.
26:11 K: Or the recognition is in abeyance, to be used but doesn’t play a part? You see how we are slowly going into it? You’re too quick, that’s why you’re not… You don’t move slowly. And then you’ll find out. So the tail end, that is, the less there is of recognition, the more of thin, the more tenuous, the more delicate, the greater the discovery.
26:47 And when there is no recognition - immediate discovery.
26:56 I don’t know if you capture this.
27:05 I am resentful - for various reasons; we don’t... - I am resentful. We know what that feeling of resentment is. Now, I know I have used a word and the word has strengthened that feeling and that feeling continues because I have given thought to it.
27:27 Please follow this carefully. I have given thought to it. I mean by giving thought to it, give it a name and therefore gave it a continuity.
27:43 I don’t know if you see that point.
27:49 Q: Yes.
27:50 K: Thought gives continuity. If I think about something every day... Right? Now, I’ve given thought to it and therefore it has become a process of recognition, because I’ve recognised, recognised, recognised.
28:07 I’m not trying to get rid of it or not get rid of it – that is irrelevant – but I want to discover, discover as though it was something original which has never happened before, the feeling of resentment.
28:27 I don’t know if you…
28:30 Q: This feeling of?
28:33 K: Resentment.
28:35 Q: So the object of resentment drops.
28:39 K: Ah, no, no. You see, you’re all wanting to… I don’t want to escape from resentment. I don’t want to know the object or any... You see, I want the pure state of discovery, the state which says, ‘By Jove, I’ve discovered something.’ Q: Perhaps you go to the root, understand, see the entity.
29:15 K: Oh, no, no madame. No, no, no, no. We’re not talking of the entity or all that…
29:21 Q: The I?
29:24 K: Oh no. No, no, you… Look, I’ve looked at this - I’ve been here two months - I’ve looked out of this window practically every day and I’ve seen the sunrise and the glow of the sunset on the mountains, on the snow; when it rained, when it didn’t rain, when it’s a clear day, when it’s a smoky day, when it’s a windy day, the clouds going by.
29:52 I’ve seen it every day and I’ve got used to it - I haven’t, but I mean...
30:00 - I’ve got used to it; like these peasants, they have looked at it every day of their life and say, ‘What the heck are you looking at?’ Now, there is this immense weight of two months seeing - you follow?
30:24 - under different conditions, the beauty, the... the weight of it on my mind.
30:32 Now, to see the mountain as though I’ve never seen it before; to remove this weight of two months and look.
30:44 Then when I do look it, it is a discovery. You follow? I see a new curve on the mountain. I don’t know… I see a new movement in the trees, in the leaf. You’re following what I’m saying?
31:05 Q: I am following, yes.
31:06 K: Now, how does this come about?
31:13 And I think this is very important to understand because we have so far dealt with recognition all the time, and battling against recognition - you follow? - and then say, ‘How am I to dissolve...?’ I don’t know if you…
31:31 You get it? Now, the only possible way is to discover it anew and keep on discovering it - you follow?
31:44 - be in that state, you never give resentment, jealousy, ambition a continuity. I don’t know if you are following what I’m talking about.
31:54 Q: But you said some words that I think have a meaning. You said ‘remove the weight of it’. Now, that implies that you’re no longer satisfied with recognition.
32:06 K: Oh good God, no. My dear chap, don’t stick at words.
32:09 Q: No, I think the words have meaning.
32:11 K: Of course they have meaning but I’m not interested in removing resentment.
32:18 Q: No, but you may be very well fed up with the…
32:22 K: I’m not even fed up.
32:23 Q: ...with the thought process... (inaudible).
32:25 K: I’m not even fed up.
32:26 Q: It occupies your mind.
32:27 K: I am not even fed up. I’ve just seen how the mind is caught in the machinery of recognition.
32:37 That’s all. The mind sees how it is caught in the machine of recognition which has become a weight, like the mountains, the hills, the valleys.
32:50 Q: Yes, but you know it as a weight.
32:55 K: I used that word, sir, don’t…
32:58 Q: No, but one does... (inaudible).
32:59 K: Ah, you do, I don’t.
33:01 Q: No. I know the weight of the thought process that occupies the mind.
33:05 K: I don’t. I say, ‘By Jove, yes, I see it.’ Now, my interest is not in there, how not to recognise.
33:13 I see very well as long as the… the mind sees very well as long as this process of recognition exists there is no discovery.
33:22 That’s all. Not how to get from there to there.
33:40 Which means – listen to it, sir, a little more – the process of recognition makes the mind insensitive.
33:54 And I say, ‘By Jove, I’ve looked at that mountain for the last few months and I never saw that curve.’ You follow?
34:07 That’s all. And I can only see that curve when recognition is not there.
34:21 That’s all. Not how to see that curve, how to let go recognition. The recognition dulls the mind, makes it insensitive, stupid, heavy, and when I see… when recognition is not there, I see something which I’ve never seen before, which means my mind can only discover when it is extraordinarily sensitive.
35:06 It’s like a negative plate, negative – you know?
35:15 - a picture has been taken and you expose and it can’t take any more. You follow what I mean?
35:45 Everything is blurred.
35:53 Now... we know... we understand not... Please, verbally we understand; perhaps you may even have… Now, let’s move to something else, which is, analysis.
36:05 You know the mechanism of analysis, what is implied in it: the observer and the observed; the observer always examining, censoring, judging, evaluating, condemning.
36:22 Right? You’re following this?
36:25 Q: Yes.
36:27 K: And that’s the process in which we live, judge – you follow?
36:34 – analysis. And in this process of analysis there is also the process of recognition. You follow? Am I talking too much? Many: No. (Laughter) K: No, no, I don’t want… it isn’t that I want to talk, but I’m on a… It’s like a dog on a scent… (inaudible).
37:03 Q: You can perhaps help me in understanding the thing you say before.
37:13 You are here and you see day by day this country and so and so, and it became so habitual that you have not really the possibility to see, to see in the sense you say yesterday.
37:28 But for each one it is usually in this state of recognition that came, for instance, here and see the first time this, the probability to see, in the sense you say yesterday, are more than after the twenty day.
37:43 It is here?
37:44 K: No, because something new. That is not what I mean. Oh, no, no, no, don’t confuse that. I come upon a new scene because I’ve lived in the plains, and I come up and say, ‘Oh, lovely,’ and next day it’s finished, I’ve got used to it.
38:00 Q: In actual physical fact... (inaudible) outside is different every day.
38:05 K: No, no, don’t confuse the thing so much.
38:09 Q: So it doesn’t depend on the fact but of the state of my mind.
38:13 K: That’s right, sir.
38:16 Q: That’s right. And another question: When... - I don’t know if it is… if I can do this question – when this flash of understanding of discovery, you say, comes, there is a possibility to answer, ‘Yes, it is there,’ or I am always in the state to say, ‘But perhaps’?
38:41 K: No, no. Sir, look, sir, I have looked, looked, looked, looked, and I’ve never seen that curve of that branch - you follow? - the line, the dark… etc., the limb, and when I’m not thinking, burdened with recognition, I suddenly one day look and there is the curve.
39:02 That’s all. Keep it as simple as that.
39:12 Now, wait a minute.
39:19 I want to understand the process or the mechanism of analysis – you follow? – in which we are caught.
39:29 Because the more clever we are, the more analytical we are, and we sharpen ourselves on this wheel of analysis.
39:44 Now, what is the mechanism of that? Go slow, sir, I’m coming to something. You will see it in a minute. In that process of analysis there is always the observer and the thing observed.
40:03 The observer is analysing, judging, evaluating, censoring – right? – ‘This is right, this is wrong,’ so there is always a division between the observer and the observed, and therefore conflict and therefore an adjustment.
40:24 Right? That’s the mechanism of analysis.
40:30 Q: That we know.
40:35 Q: (Inaudible).
40:38 Q: My conflict.
40:42 K: Oh no. Of course. When you’re censoring something, when you’re saying, ‘This is not right, this is wrong, I must compare,’ it’s inevitably a conflict, a contraction, an opposite, a reaction.
41:03 The whole of that is our state of mind.
41:07 Q: But unexpectedly sometimes it leads us to a discovery.
41:12 K: Wait, wait, wait. You see, you’re all too quick for me. I want to go… I don’t know where it’s going to lead me. You see? You see what you are doing? I don’t know where this is going to lead me, what we’re talking about. You’ve already stated it will sometime lead me to discovery.
41:33 Q: It... (inaudible).
41:35 K: Maybe, but you’re not now discovering; you’re going back.
41:45 You see, that is what I am battling with all of you. You’re always going back. It has happened; it has happened once, it is this… Please go with me slowly. You follow, sir? Process of analysis is a process of evaluation – right? – a process of censoring: this is right, this is wrong; this should be, this should not be – which is the very nature of conflict, of course.
42:23 Moment I am a censor I contradict that. It’s so simple, sir, don’t take time over this.
42:32 Q: No, but there need not be any sense of conflict in yourself. You take something and you... (inaudible).
42:40 K: No, no, no, no, no. I analyse my jealousy, my resentment. I say, ‘By Jove, it should not be. Why am I jealous? Why am I resenting?’ What does that mean? There is an entity who is judging and therefore the entity is in a state of contradiction within himself.
43:04 Oui, signor...
43:06 Q: All right, I see that.
43:12 K: And therefore conflict.
43:15 Q: Yes, he’s in a state of contradiction, otherwise he wouldn’t be doing it.
43:21 K: Of course.
43:22 Q: All right.
43:23 K: So… Now, wait a minute. And I know now in that process recognition is involved.
43:34 Ah, that’s a very important thing to see. If there was no recognition in analysis, it wouldn’t be analysis at all.
43:50 Q: Of course, you will recognise… (inaudible).
43:54 K: Ah, ah, ah... No, old boy. You’re all so definitely concrete. Don’t jump to it; look at it first. I know the machinery of recognition and with that machinery I analyse.
44:08 Q: Yes.
44:09 K: Which is a process of recognition: ‘This should be, this should not be; I am better...’ – all that.
44:21 Q: Yes.
44:22 K: So analysis is similar to recognition. There is not much difference. Difference there is but… It’s dissimilar but there is a great deal of similarities in it. Right. Now, what next? You’re waiting for me? Many: (Inaudible).
44:53 K: Now, what is the next thing?
44:57 Q: (Inaudible).
44:59 K: No, no, no. Watch; watch. What is the state of my mind when there is discovery?
45:23 Look... go slow. I have understood the mechanism of recognition – right? – and I’ve understood the mechanism of investigation, analysis.
45:32 They have a great deal of similarities, though they are dissimilar. And I say, by Jove, what is the difference between these two and discovery?
45:45 You follow? These two we are acquainted with – you follow? – analysis and recognition. Are you following? Are you coming with me? Somebody? Yes?
45:58 Q: Yes.
45:59 K: And I say now, what is that state of discovery? It’s neither of these two. Right?
46:07 Q: Yes.
46:08 Q: Of course.
46:10 K: You don’t understand?
46:12 Q: No, I do. It’s neither one of the two; I see that.
46:18 K: Yes.
46:19 Q: It can’t be.
46:21 K: Which means what? In one state we have said the machinery of recognition has become very, very delicate.
46:33 It’s almost withered... it is there but it hasn’t got his weight. It has lost its weight - you know what I mean? - it’s lost its control, whatever it is.
46:46 And also analysis has lost its…
46:53 Now, what is the state of discovery? We said – wait a minute – we said in the first case that – I want to go on – in the first case we have said the machinery of recognition will not lead to the other.
47:13 Right? Right?
47:15 Q: Yes.
47:16 K: And the machinery of analysis will not. Why? There is the censor: thought and the thinker.
47:30 Right? And there is discovery only, in the second, when there is no censor at all.
47:40 You follow?
47:44 Q: Yes.
47:51 Q: You say, ‘What is the state of the mind in discovery?’ It’s impossible to say what it is, obviously.
47:57 K: Oh no, I’ll tell you in a minute. You’re going to find out. I have stated... we have stated it already: when the process of recognition is a very thin film.
48:14 You follow?
48:15 Q: Yes.
48:16 K: Thin – what is it? – delicate membrane. That’s all. And the other... analysis is also very delicate, because in that I see there is a censor always.
48:29 And I see further, there is discovery only when the censor is not there. The censor being the essence of time.
48:51 Q: You’re going too fast.
48:56 K: Ah, sorry.
48:57 Q: When you discover, there is no thinking.
48:58 K: And therefore no censor.
48:59 Q: That isn’t so easily seen. You see, there’s no thinking.
49:06 K: No, I did not say there is no thinking.
49:10 Q: No, but one sees... (inaudible).
49:11 K: I said there is no censor. There is no thinker as time, as the past, as memory, as the entity who has been shaped by time, by society, by culture, by education, by experience.
49:34 Q: But when I discover something I still feel that I’m there, that I have identity...
49:39 K: Ah, ah, ah, ah; then comes much later.
49:48 Sir, just a minute; just a minute; see what is happening.
49:56 I have looked at that mountain for two months – I’m taking that as an example; don’t run that to death – and I have never seen that curve of that hill where the snow has washed it; centuries of snow has given it…
50:15 Right. I’ve never seen it and one day not thinking about the mountain – you follow? – not being in the habit of seeing, I look and there it is. And I say, ‘By Jove!’ Now, what is that state of mind that sees that curve?
50:35 The state of mind that sees that curve is when the habit of seeing has stopped, habit of... – not seeing – habit of seeing the same thing over and over and over again.
50:50 Q: (Inaudible) …way you could describe that state of mind, surely.
50:52 K: Ah, we are doing it, sir, negatively (laughs).
50:59 Ah, you see, you’re all trying to get at it. I’m not trying to get at it. Because, you see…
51:04 Q: What I’m discovering is recognition, not the mountain. That’s the discovery… (inaudible).
51:08 K: No, no.
51:09 Q: The habit of seeing is not there at the moment.
51:16 All right.
51:18 K: Oh, no; what did Mr Suarez say? Did you hear him? (Laughter) Q: (Inaudible). (Laughter) K: He said it’s the state of mind that discovers, not the thing you see.
51:51 But I won’t see that if there is not a state. You follow? Ah, don’t… this is… it gets... it was so simple; I cannot understand why don’t you jump along with this.
52:09 Q: (Inaudible)... problem this thing is too simple, surely.
52:25 K: It is. That’s why you’re going to miss it. (Laughter) K: You see, sir, I… I wish you’d… You see, recognition arises. I see that very well, those two; very simple (inaudible). I mean, it’s a complex machinery but I understand it. But I haven’t quite understood what is the state of discovery. State, not what is discovery. You follow? Not the object, not the thing that I’ve discovered, but the state of the mind that discovers. And I see the process of... the mechanism of recognition and analysis must go away…
52:58 must… You know?
53:00 Q: Drop off.
53:01 K: What, drop off? Not...
53:03 Q: (Inaudible)... to receive... (inaudible).
53:04 Q: Simply seeing.
53:05 Q: (Inaudible).
53:06 Q: That’s all. To see it; it’s finished.
53:10 K: Ah... No, I do not want to go back to the seeing again.
53:14 Q: But it is.
53:15 K: I refuse to accept that word again... (inaudible). I want to let it wither away. You follow? It is there, I can’t neglect it, I can’t put away. It is there but not very… It’s in the basement. Now, what is the mind that discovers? I see very well it can’t be these two.
53:37 Q: It’s a quiet mind.
53:39 K: Oh no. You see how you’re all eager to… (laughs). Quiet – I want to burn that word, don’t you? (Laughter) Q: Mr Krishnamurti, you say, ‘How to pass, to jump in the other state.’ You asked this.
54:00 K: Yes sir, just to…
54:01 Q: But I ask you: if I’ve never heard you, perhaps I never think this state.
54:05 K: I’m now suggesting. You’re hearing it now. Forget whether you’ve never heard it.
54:11 Q: But so, I am not in this state and how... I know the other too very well – we have discussed very deeply that side.
54:19 K: Wait, wait; you know that very well.
54:21 Q: That very well, yes.
54:22 K: Wait. You know those two very well and you know those two cannot be the states that will bring something new into it.
54:37 Obviously. More and more and more you get used to it, more and more and more dull you become. Look at all these peasants; they don’t know. You follow? They have lived with it from childhood. They have become insensitive. Sir, this is clear enough, we don’t have to spend time on this. No?
54:53 Q: Well, I mean, that’s a reasonably simple process, surely, but to discover the state of discovery sounds too fantastic to my mind.
55:02 K: You’re going to discover it now if you go with me.
55:05 Q: Sir, I want to ask you another thing. Is it really that you are not satisfied of your state in which you are now? This state that implies analysis and so on – are you really unsatisfied?
55:16 Q: Well, I’ve been made unsatisfied by the previous discussion.
55:19 Q: I’m not so deeply unsatisfied. It is my usual way to live, is it not?
55:27 Q: But a doubt has arisen. The moment that occurs you can’t be satisfied, surely.
55:33 Q: Because you say as a knowing thing that we are not satisfied in this state, but this is not true.
55:40 K: I did not say satisfied.
55:41 Q: Unsatisfied; that it is stupid; that it’s stupid.
55:45 K: I did not say any of those words.
55:47 Q: I use other... (inaudible).
55:49 K: No, I did not.
55:51 Q: No.
55:52 Q: Simply, we know that there is…
55:54 K: Look sir, I want to find out the state of the mind of a man who discovers.
56:02 Q: Surely… (inaudible).
56:04 K: Discovers: a new way of jet. He has discovered jet. Somebody who has discovered a new way of building a house, an engineer who says, ‘By Jove…’ – puts something to… something new comes out of it.
56:24 I want to discover that state of mind. Not that I’m dissatisfied with these two.
56:34 Right? Sir, don’t you want to know, as an electronic engineer and all the rest of it, the state of mind of somebody who sees something new?
56:50 Don’t you want to know?
56:54 Q: Yes... (inaudible).
56:56 K: That’s all.
56:58 Q: So there is no condemnation of the other two states... (inaudible).
57:04 K: Oh, no; I never event talked about it. Many: (Inaudible).
57:10 K: I never even mentioned the word condemnation. I said… But I want to know the mind of an inventor – you follow? – the mind… of a mind who sees something new.
57:21 That’s all. Right, sir? You got it?
57:26 Q: Yes.
57:27 K: Now, let’s go back. So these two states of analysis and recognition, in that there is nothing new.
57:38 I see that clearly. Right? I’m not condemning it. I say if I go along in those two, I’ll never discover any damn... anything. Right? It will be same process, repeating, repeating, repeating. Now, I want to find out what is the other state... (inaudible).
58:05 Q: Well, to find out what the other state is, I notice that my mind sees the one thing – at the time there is no thinking, there’s no thought process - but then I see my mind engaging in analysis to recognise some other facts about it, which is, so I won’t get the answer that way.
58:29 K: So what do you do?
58:36 You have to discover that mind, haven’t you? You have to discover it.
58:42 Q: (Inaudible).
58:43 K: How am I going to do it? (Pause) Q: Just one point, sir.
58:58 If you’ve got a mountain as an object here and you discover that every day as a new mountain.
59:17 Now, with this state of discovery, are you not treating it as an object?
59:24 K: I’ve forgotten the mountain.
59:26 Q: Yes, yes, yes. All right.
59:28 K: Ah, just... there’s something...
59:29 Q: But isn’t this the difficulty?
59:30 K: ...which is so terribly alive - you follow? - and this aliveness, this state of light or whatever it is, sees all the time, so it’s never habit-forming.
59:39 Habit forming is recognition. Habit forming is analysis. It’s gone out of that.
59:46 Q: Well, all I’m asking, if I may, is can it recognise itself?
59:56 K: Ah, you’ve gone too far for me.
1:00:04 You see, there are one or two things obvious – obvious – that as long as there is the censor – you follow?
1:00:18 – there cannot be a state of discovery.
1:00:22 Q: Yes... (inaudible).
1:00:23 K: That’s fairly clear. Is it clear?
1:00:26 Q: Yes.
1:00:27 K: Now, wait a minute; what do you mean by that? As long…
1:00:33 Q: So if you’ve got a preconceived idea, obviously you’ve got a block between the…
1:00:39 K: No. As long as there is a censor, which is the result of time, the result of conflict, the result of conditioning – you’re following? – the result of his contradictions, his envies, his psychological, social structure, and all that, as long as that censor is, there is no discovery.
1:01:05 Q: Because as long as he is, he will operate automatically and interfere.
1:01:14 K: Yes, that’s… Don’t say, ‘How am I to remove it?’ – that’s not the problem.
1:01:23 I see as long as there is a censor there is no discovery.
1:01:30 Which means as long as there is a conflict of any kind there is no discovery, whether it’s my wife, with my problem, with my boss, with... any problem.
1:01:43 You follow?
1:01:45 Q: That seems fairly obvious, I mean…
1:01:53 K: Ah, obvious, but… No, no. Obvious verbally, but that is not the state of discovery. Verbally saying, ‘That’s so obvious I mustn’t have conflict’ – of course. But to discover – wait a minute – to discover for yourself that there must be no conflict.
1:02:16 You follow?
1:02:17 Q: Yes, rather than have it… yes.
1:02:20 K: Ah, that’s it. And you’re out of it. You see what I’m talking?
1:02:29 Q: Yes, I’ve got… (laughs). That’s the primary difficulty in this very situation, you see.
1:02:37 K: It is; it is. Ah, that’s why I’ve held you, prevented you from racing along. I say go slow because you have to realise, experience, live, see, listen, discover as you go along.
1:03:08 Probably there are only two things in life that are... for most of us who are second-hand, two things original: hunger and sex.
1:03:16 Everything else is second-hand.
1:03:18 Q: Even those become mechanical operations.
1:03:23 K: Ah, ah, ah...
1:03:32 Later. So you see what is taking place?
1:03:41 First, I don’t want to move anywhere, in any direction.
1:03:50 You follow? I don’t want to achieve. I don’t want to be in a state of discovery.
1:04:02 So I start very, very factually, logically, without emotion, without projection.
1:04:16 I see very clearly and ruthlessly the mechanism of recognition, and I see also the mechanism of analysis.
1:04:31 And I discovered in this process of looking at the machinery that as long as there is a censor who is of time – you follow? – of time, he creates space.
1:04:54 And as long as there is time and space there is no discovery, which is the essence of conflict.
1:05:05 Time and space and the censor is the essence of conflict. As long as that thing, that complex is there, there is no discovery.
1:05:15 I have discovered this. You haven’t told me; I’ve found it. You follow? As Edison, Einstein, all these... they have found it.
1:05:26 Q: Yes.
1:05:27 K: The moment you have found it you’re no longer second-hand.
1:05:31 Q: Yes, you see, the primary difficulty is to listen to you telling us, you see.
1:05:38 This is…
1:05:39 K: Ah, no, no. I am telling you because we are discussing - you follow? - we help... we are uncovering as we go along.
1:05:48 You can uncover verbally and spin along, race ahead, or uncover bit by bit, experience, live, understand, go into it.
1:05:57 The process of recognition and the process of analysis have the centre, have a centre which is time.
1:06:12 Right? Obviously.
1:06:14 Q: Yes, of course.
1:06:16 K: And as long as the mind functions in time and space there is no discovery.
1:06:24 I found that. I say, ‘By Jove, what a marvellous thing.’ You follow?
1:06:32 Then comes, if you go a little further – not a little; much further – what is the relationship of discovery in creation?
1:06:43 You follow?
1:06:44 Q: Yes.
1:06:45 Q: Yes, but you see…
1:06:48 K: Yes sir, go ahead sir.
1:06:55 Go on, Mr Craig, you won’t interfere... (inaudible).
1:07:03 Q: I keep getting this feeling in this situation of you being one jump ahead.
1:07:12 K: What is that?
1:07:14 Q: For instance, you’ve been talking about time and space. I’ll say frankly that I don’t quite understand that.
1:07:23 K: Nor do I. (Laughter) K: Now I don’t, but I’m going to find... each time I find out.
1:07:33 I don’t want to repeat. It’s a frightful bore. I want to find out. I want to see what time really is, feel it. You follow? So I’m not... I only mentioned time as chronological... – not chronological - the psychological time, etc., etc.
1:07:51 As long as there is a centre - we’ll call it - a centre which is the very axis of recognition – you follow? – and the movement, from which there is a movement of analysis, there is no discovery.
1:08:15 Right? I mean, one has to… we have come… to discuss this after all these eight days. You follow? It isn’t just the first time you and I are discussing. Then I say to myself, all right, I have discovered something new, seeing the curve of the mountain, seeing jealousy as something new.
1:08:36 What is that, and what is creation? I mean, that’s too far away. You see, discovery has nothing to do with creation.
1:08:55 Q: Obviously when you’re there, discovery…
1:09:02 K: It has no relationship between the two, but the three have a relationship.
1:09:11 Q: Yes, but if you… (inaudible).
1:09:13 K: Wait sir; wait sir. Analysis, recognition and discovery have a relationship.
1:09:24 I can move from one to the other but I can’t move from this to that - creation.
1:09:32 I don’t know if you…
1:09:33 Q: The point I was going say… Sorry.
1:09:38 K: No sir, go ahead.
1:09:39 Q: You have to be in the state of discovery to discover the creation, obviously.
1:09:48 K: Ah, ah, ah, ah. I can… all the three have to end completely.
1:10:10 (Inaudible)... it’s a very interesting... (inaudible).
1:10:11 Q: Yes.
1:10:12 K: You see, that’s why God, dog, or whatever it is, is not a thing to be achieved through these processes.
1:10:32 You follow what I’m trying…?
1:10:46 You know that lovely story of the Zen...
1:10:53 – I was told this; I haven’t read it – patriarch? And a disciple comes to him and sits in front of him, cross-legged and the master says, ‘My friend, what are you doing?’ The disciple sits in front of the patriarch, the teacher, and closes his eyes in tremendous…
1:11:11 and the patriarch says, ‘My friend, what are you doing?’ ‘Oh,’ he says, ‘I’m trying to reach the highest consciousness.’ ‘Oh,’ he says, ‘all right.’ So presently the master picks up two pieces of stone and begins to rub them.
1:11:27 You know the story? If you do, it doesn’t matter. And the rubbing wakes the disciple and he says, ‘Master, what are you doing?’ He says, ‘I’m rubbing two stones.’ ‘What for?’ He says, ‘To make a mirror out of one of it.’ ‘Oh,’ he says, ‘master, you can rub for ten thousand years, you will never make a mirror out of it.’ And the master says, ‘My friend, you can sit like that…’ (Laughter)