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GS62DSG7 - Fear is preventing us from looking
Gstaad, Switzerland - 20 August 1962
Discussion with Small Group 7



0:00 This is the seventh small group discussion with J. Krishnamurti in Gstaad, 1962.
0:09 Krishnamurti: Shall we go more into this question of authority and idea and action? Because I think if we could go a little more into it, I think we might come upon what is creation. If idea is our authority and directive in action and when that authority ceases… Sir, it’s a lovely morning, isn’t it?
1:00 Many: Yes.
1:19 K: When that idea ceases, is life a blankness, a sense of non-living, a dull, un-awakened state? Because we guide our lives by an idea, by a symbol, by a picture: what I should be, what my children should be, or should not be, what the state should be. We live with concepts and if there is a freedom from concept, what happens? Does all action cease? Does all reformation - in the larger sense of the word, not mere doing goodness, but deep, fundamental revolution which is really a complete change, does all that cease? You know, when we are... we are discussing that, aren’t we? When authority comes to an end as an idea, or the idea as authority, does action come to an end? Do I cease to love because I have no idea? Or if there is no idea, then there is a possibility of love? You know, that’s... We must discuss this a little bit, shouldn’t we?
3:44 Questioner: Yes.
3:46 K: And if there is no idea, as the idea which becomes the authority, is life just merely floating around, then living is just directionless, void, meaningless, and therefore ready to commit suicide? I wish you could go into this, not verbally but actually, because I think we’ll come upon something, which I saw this morning having a bath, that when authority in the deep sense ceases then there is creation. Not writing poems, I don’t mean all that, but this extraordinary thing called creation. Well, let’s go into it.
5:25 Q: (Inaudible)... to creation a meaning which is very different to the one which we... (inaudible).
5:37 K: Yes, yes; naturally.
5:39 Q: Why do you use that word and in what sense do you use it?
5:42 K: Ah, we... If I may say, let’s leave that word out and the meaning I give to it - all out. Let’s begin from the beginning, not at the... not, ‘What is that state’ or ‘what is the meaning of that particular word?’ After having discussed authority, last two days, where are we now? I mean, are we cleansed of all that?
6:07 Q: (Inaudible)... a little different.
6:10 K: Ah?
6:15 Q: But we are still different since yesterday.
6:31 K: We are different?
6:37 Q: (Inaudible).
6:41 K: Now... You know, there is a difference, which is… it’s like rain washing the fields, leaving the grass sparkling, clean, green, rich and there is a little difference of an artificial watering.
7:03 Q: (Inaudible).
7:06 K: Sorry, I don’t mean… You understand what I mean? You see, I want to dig into it, you see, go beyond this... I don’t know…
7:29 Q: Well, Krishnaji, I don’t really know what you mean by living without ideas... (inaudible).
7:39 K: No, no, I said… We went into it yesterday, didn’t we, what... how ideas come into being, then those ideas become our pattern, and those patterns becomes our daily conduct and that pattern or that conclusion or that system becomes our authority, and that binds us. That’s all...
8:10 Q: Yes, but then you say to live without this idea.
8:18 K: Ah, no. If I see how... if the mind sees how it is caught in a conclusion, in a concept, in a prototype, in a pattern, caught by its own reactions - we’ve been through all that - then it is aware of its own prison, isn’t it?
8:45 Q: Yes.
8:46 K: And it will break it. It is not living without idea. You follow? You see the difference? If I make a pattern of life in which idea is not, then it becomes another pattern.
9:07 Q: Yes, but take one idea. For example; a person does something and you have resentment - right - there is a strong feeling, a turmoil of thought and then you say, ‘Well, I resent being pushed around by resentment’, so I have a look at it. Well, then the mind can do two things: it can go around this feeling and this thought and ask questions about it: how did it arise, what are its implications, is it good or bad and so on, and then maybe you get an insight, maybe you don’t get an insight, or it can just take the feeling of resentment and look at that and then you see that that’s a strange feeling; you don’t recognise it at all; it’s something very mysterious. But then you keep looking at and feeling it and then it recedes into the distance and disappears and then you have... (inaudible) gained an insight; it just disappeared.
10:04 K: All right, and then what?
10:06 Q: Well, then the whole thing seems to be futile.
10:09 K: Futile - why?
10:10 Q: Because all you’re free of is that feeling of resentment at the moment. It arises again, so you haven’t got an insight into resentment or the idea of resentment.
10:19 K: And is there not another way of... before resentment taking place, to be so aware it doesn’t take place. You follow? There are two ways, isn’t it? One, to be aware, alive, so that resentment doesn’t take place at all, whatever you do. You insult, you do this or… no resentment takes place at all. That’s one state. The other is having resentment, then I try to dissipate it, then I try to analyse, dissect, and then observe the fact, the reactions, go into it in detail, and then the factor that who is the observer, who is the observed, and go into all that. You follow? It is... one is preventative, the other is the cure. I don’t know…
11:36 Q: That’s right; yes.
11:37 K: I’m not... Cure is not important. It is symptomatic and therefore can be dealt with symptomatically, but preventative is important. I don’t know if I… Why should I go through all this turmoil of resentment, jealousy, envy - you follow? - all that, and then dissipate? Why can’t I, at the beginning, stop it?
12:02 Q: But it arises spontaneously.
12:04 K: Ah... because… No, I wouldn’t use – I may say so – I wouldn’t use the word spontaneous. What do you mean by spontaneous?
12:12 Q: Without my... (inaudible).
12:14 K: How do you know it has not been stored up? I have insulted you a week ago and you didn’t pay much attention, your unconscious has taken it up and brings it out day after tomorrow. Ah, that’s not spontaneity.
12:28 Q: No, but as far as I can observe it, it appears without my will.
12:33 K: Obviously it has been there. It’s like a disease. The symptoms are seen a month later or a few days later, which doesn’t mean that one is spontaneous. I don’t know…
12:59 Q: (Inaudible).
13:05 K: I wish we could really discuss this thing, go for - you know? - go to the end of it. Apparently we don’t seem to do it. Not discuss but actually... not only verbally but throwing off the burden of authority. (Pause) Where are we?
14:08 Q: Unless we do it how can we discuss? I don’t see it.
14:26 K: What is the difficulty... doing? What’s the difficulty of seeing the structure and the anatomy of authority, verbally, intellectually and then be in contact with it emotionally, that is, completely, and let it go, finished? I don’t know if we have sufficiently discussed, authority, deeply enough, and therefore there is a hesitation.
15:10 Q: I think there’s a mechanism of a habit which is as dur comme un croûte (16:06).
15:20 K: Alors, quesque’on peut faire?
15:22 Q: Mais justement.
15:23 K: It’s a hard shell...
15:26 Q: Yes.
15:27 K: Habit has created a hard shell in which we live.
15:32 Q: (Inaudible)... feel different, the shell is still there.
15:34 K: Now, how do you break habit? Habit of thought, habit of scratching one’s… – habit - smoking.
15:44 Q: It’s easy after it begins to appear, but it is very difficult before. You can stop a habit when you want to start it, but it’s very difficult to not to have it appear at all. You see what I mean?
16:05 K: Yes, I understand.
16:07 Q: (Inaudible)… personality which comes; even if you feel something new, there’s an old thing which comes back and it needs a little... just a little time to adjust. And it’s so much in the unconscious too.
16:38 K: How do you... then what shall we do?
16:44 Q: I think we do.
16:46 K: What is really the difficulty?
16:50 Doris Pratt: It’s first that... one of the difficulties is that we don’t really see how authority permeates our being and living, how authority is at the root of all our relationships, actions…
17:27 K: Ah, don’t…
17:28 DP: (Inaudible).
17:29 K: I mean… You see…?
17:32 Q: I think the difficulty is to look at it without making some kind of prejudiced judgment.
17:45 K: You see, Miss Pratt says that all our being is rooted in authority.
17:57 DP: Yes.
17:59 K: What makes you say that?
18:01 DP: What makes me say that?
18:02 K: Yes.
18:03 DP: Well, if I look at my own life I see that I do do things…
18:11 K: Yes, and then what? After seeing that, that you find your whole life is based on this thing, what do you do? What takes place? No, wait a minute; let’s move a little from authority. If I find my life is based on fear, I find it, analysis, discussion, exposing myself - you follow? - I find, discover, come upon the state that my whole life is based on fear, then what is... what happens then? How do I see it? I think that may be the difficulty. How do I see it?
19:25 Q: Only partially.
19:28 K: No, no, no, no; don’t... don’t… You see…? All right. I find that my life is based on fear - I don’t know whole life or... - I see it. Now, what do I mean by that word see?
19:48 Q: At the moment is only an explication, what I mean.
19:59 K: Yes sir, but what do you mean by…? No…
20:03 Q: I think with most people we simply recognize this.
20:05 K: Now, you…
20:06 Q: There’s a feeling...
20:09 Q: (Inaudible)… understands.
20:10 Q: To discover.
20:12 K: I wonder if we could go into that…
20:16 Q: What do you mean, to see?
20:18 K: I just keep to that word, sir.
20:21 Q: Yes; see. To see, for instance, authority or fear.
20:24 K: No, no, no, no. To see - not authority, not fear - to see, what does it mean to you?
20:35 Q: To be.
20:38 K: To be?
20:39 Q: To be in the state of fear.
20:40 K: No, no; sir, no. You’re not... you are...
20:44 Q: Yes.
20:45 K: Now, strip fear, authority. What does it mean to see? Not what you see, but the...
20:52 Q: Process to see.
20:53 K: ...the meaning of that word.
20:56 Q: Be aware at that moment?
20:59 Q: To live and be aware.
21:01 K: No, my darling... I mean, my dear sir, I don’t mean that at all. (Laughter)
21:04 K: I mean something else.
21:07 Q: There are two fashion to see: to put in words and to visualize.
21:12 K: No sir. Sir, just stop a minute; just stop a minute. What does that word see mean? I see the snow, I see the mountain. You follow?
21:27 Q: Yes.
21:28 Q: Yes.
21:29 K: That’s very objective, very clear; there is no two ways about it. Either I’m blind or I see or don’t see the green fields, the sparkling trees and the movement… I see it. Now, what do... when we say see, what do we mean by that? I understand objectively. Subjectively, what do you mean by that?
21:51 Q: Se rendre compte?
21:54 (22:40)
21:55 K: Ah, madame... You see, you are changing... you’re merely changing the words.
22:00 Q: (Inaudible).
22:01 K: Don’t change words; don’t... Stick to that one word. What does it mean to you, when you say, ‘I see that I am... that my life is based on fear’ - see?
22:14 Q: It’s a fact.
22:16 Q: That I don’t accept or reject that fact.
22:21 K: Ah?
22:22 Q: That I do not accept or reject, but actually go into it.
22:23 K: Oh, my dear sir.
22:25 Q: See it without moving from it.
22:29 K: You see, you are… what...? You’re all…
22:33 Q: I mean, I don’t know how to put in words but… (inaudible).
22:35 K: Don’t put it… What does it mean to you to see – see? I see the colour, that green colour, see, and inwardly I see. What does that word mean? Not your state.
22:52 Q: That’s just... (inaudible).
22:54 Q: (Inaudible).
22:55 Q: That’s not the state because one can describe a state but it’s difficult to say what…
23:02 K: Ah, you will describe it in a few minutes; just watch it.
23:05 Q: To see means understand.
23:07 Q: (Inaudible).
23:08 Q: Maybe the... (inaudible) you say you see...
23:11 K: No, you see what you’re all doing, if I may say so? You’re giving me explanations, tumbling over each other, giving explanations. (Laughter)
23:18 Q: No.
23:19 K: No, un moment, senora. I mean, please, just a minute. I want to understand that word – please don’t explain to me what you feel about that word – I want to find out for myself what it means to see. I hear music, very objective and all that. Now, here I say I see fear; I see that my life is based on fear. What do I mean by that word? At what level do I see?
23:57 Q: Conscious?
23:58 K: Oh, no... At what level do I see? Is it seeing semantically - you follow? - as I see that tree and I know I see it; there is no word; I see it. You follow? I don’t say it is a state of understanding. I don’t say it’s anything. I see the tree, that shape, which I call tree - that’s irrelevant, the naming - but the fact is there is something there, dark. Now, at what level do I see? At the verbal level?
24:47 Q: Yes.
24:52 K: At an emotional level? At a level of translating – you know what I mean...? – recognizing and translating?
25:16 Q: You see like an image of yourself.
25:23 K: An image? Do I see…?
25:25 Q: An image of yourself.
25:26 K: No, no, not your… No, you see, don’t go off yet.
25:28 Q: (Inaudible).
25:29 K: At what level? I’m trying to see at what level. At the word level? Level of the symbol, level of the idea?
25:38 Q: Feeling.
25:41 K: Feeling? You follow? Which are all divisions, fragments. I see emotionally fear, you see verbally fear, and somebody else sees the word and recognizes the fear and so on and so on and so on. Now, at what level do you see fear?
26:11 Q: (French) …emotionellement…
26:13 (27:00)
26:14 K: Ah, no, no, no, that’s all words, I don’t know. I want to know at what… For yourself, sir, when you say, ‘I see fear in myself’ I want to find out, at what level, at what depth do you see it?
26:32 Q: I’m sure there’s no word to account for that.
26:37 K: You will find out a word; just go into it a little bit. Stop a minute. Be silent for two minutes. We are now trying to find out at what level you feel anything. Feel, comprehend, understand, see, listen - at what depth?
27:24 Q: It is something direct.
27:27 K: Direct?
27:28 Q: Direct.
27:29 K: Direct. Now, wait a minute. When you say you see something direct, what does that mean?
27:33 Q: There is no time for recognizing… (inaudible).
27:37 K: That’s for you; you say, ‘I am afraid’, full stop. And perhaps other says... What do you say? Please, let’s discuss this, not…
27:50 DP: It seems to me I only see very superficially because... (inaudible) see an idea; there’s no emotional content.
27:56 K: No, what...? No, Miss Pratt, just stop a minute. You mean, superficial - what do you mean by that word superficially?
28:01 DP: Ah, all I know there’s no actual emotional content to the vision. I see as an idea… (inaudible).
28:18 K: Ah... When you are afraid there is not an idea.
28:24 DP: No, but I’m not afraid.
28:25 K: At the moment.
28:26 DP: No; and now is the moment I’m looking.
28:29 K: Oh, no. Is that all you are... the moment you are looking, therefore you say, ‘My fear is very superficial’?
28:36 DP: Yes.
28:37 K: You can conjure up fear all right, can’t you? Artificially or actually be in a state of fear, getting old age, dying, becoming gaga - you know? - be... (inaudible) what we are, see it, and then what happens?
28:52 Q: But if you’re using this comparison of seeing a tree…
29:01 K: I wasn’t comparing, sir.
29:03 Q: It’s the same…
29:04 Q: No. We’re afraid to look at it deeply, at least...
29:15 K: You see, I want to be clear when we say superficial, deeply - I want to understand these words. I’m not quibbling about words - you understand? - I want to know what it means.
29:29 Q: Because we can face certain fears and we accept them and then we accept them intellectually, even emotionally, but when we go deep in ourselves, we find fear as the state of fear, then we stop thinking. At least that’s... It looks so dreadful to us that we simply run away from it.
29:59 Q: Well, if I say I am afraid, I feel the fear and I see the situation that gives rise to fear.
30:13 K: Now, when you see, what do you mean? At what...? You say, ‘I see’ - what does it mean?
30:19 Q: It means that I have an intellectual concept of the situation.
30:23 K: So you see it verbally?
30:27 Q: Verbally, and I feel the fear.
30:30 K: Fear, and then what? And how do you deeply feel fear?
30:41 Q: I try to become one with fear.
30:50 Q: Well, I don’t see any depth beyond emotion and idea.
31:01 Q: But excuse me, how can we discuss this problem if each of us is not now in a state of crisis or fear?
31:11 K: All right. What state are you in now?
31:13 Q: ...in a state of crisis or fear. We are in a position... (inaudible) quiet here and the fear is not there, actually.
31:18 K: Then how…? Yes sir? All right.
31:21 Q: But we know it is there, all the same, in the background.
31:23 Q: When you see what it means to see. For instance, I become in love with a woman. In this state, really, I am in one things deeply, without anything, but it is just a moment. When I see a beautiful mountains, in this state, after that some complications comes. Now, we are here discussing fear, but just theoretically, because we are not in a state of crisis that can only make... (inaudible).
31:55 K: All right, don’t introduce fear. You can introduce the word authority. Leave fear alone. Your life is based on authority, according to her. If you realize that your life is guided by a pattern of habit, of ideas, and so on, you are... It’s there, it’s a fact. Right? You don’t have to conjure up fear, it is there. Your life is authority, you obey authority. Even though you not have a priest; you have an authority of your own, as an idea. Right?
32:39 Q: I can say right for some very impressive thing, for instance, the authority of a church and so on, but I cannot say yes with the same conviction for some other, very underground authority that I know... - como se dice? - vagamente.
32:59 K: Vagamente.
33:00 Q: Vagamente (33:38), that they are... but, if I can… Yes, for that I am... (inaudible). You know what I mean?
33:09 K: Yes, I understand, sir. Then we can’t discuss anything.
33:26 Q: It’s incredibly difficult, it seems to me, to observe your own process without any kind of bias coming in. This surely is the difficulty. I mean, we can observe when other people, perhaps, are in authority, but when it comes to seeing it oneself, it’s an entirely different situation.
33:52 K: Yes sir.
33:53 Q: And this seems to be the prime difficulty in the whole thing. We don’t see ourselves in the mirror of relationship at all. That is the fact, we don’t.
34:08 Q: But when faced with fear, I feel fear, I have an intellectual concept of it and then I try to get out of that situation, to get away from the thing that causes me fear. And I don’t go deeper that. I don’t know what you mean by depth.
34:53 Q: I think when one sees something there is no level; one sees it with his whole being; it is there.
35:02 K: Yes sir. Now, wait a minute.
35:08 Q: Oui, mais, pour quoi se combat et jamais resolvi?(35:50)
35:13 Q: If one sees it that way…
35:16 K: Not ‘if ’sir, then it is a conditional ‘if’. You see what I’m... what we are trying to find out is… Look, we have discussed authority for three days, two days, in and out, verbally we have exchanged, verbally we have gone into it, perhaps to a greater level than we are aware of it. Now, but apparently the mind is still not free from authority, the pattern. Now, how does one…? What is the catalyst, what is the crisis, what is the element that will bring this... that will break it? You follow what I mean?
36:09 Q: Exactly.
36:10 K: What do you think it is?
36:11 Q: We... this is just the point, sir, we can give an answer to this which may be verbally correct but it’s quite a different matter to be in that situation.
36:24 K: But why aren’t you in that situation where you intellectually or verbally, emotionally, see how our life is guided by a pattern?
36:39 Q: I mean, the difficulty is, it seems to me, that we only actually feel this in a particular crisis when…
36:47 K: No; now, now, now. We have pushed each other in a corner, after two days. You follow, sir, what I mean?
36:56 Q: Yes.
36:57 K: And why don’t you break it, something happens…you either remain in it…
37:03 Q: I’ll tell you what happens: you build up a terrific resentment.
37:07 K: Against whom?
37:09 Q: Well, first of all, against the object you think is an authority, and then you realize what’s happening…
37:14 K: Ah, you remove all that, quickly. I understand all that, sir. We have done all that... We went through all that the first two days.
37:22 Q: Yes, well, I mean, what I’m saying is you suddenly realise it’s the resentment against this is purely the reaction.
37:30 K: Yes sir. Yes, I understand all that. What is the thing, sir, that will break you from authority? You follow?
37:42 Q: I mean, I could give an answer but it wouldn’t be real because…
37:50 K: No, no, no, you won’t give an answer. Your answer then will be merely speculative, wouldn’t it?
37:58 Q: Yes.
37:59 K: But here is a fact: we have discussed two days and we realise verbally, intellectually that ideas, concepts, formulas, patterns, guide our life; and one realises how... that they have become our authority and it’s a dead (inaudible). You follow what I mean?
38:30 Q: Yes.
38:31 K: It isn’t a living thing.
38:33 Q: Well, there’s no difficult in this.
38:35 K: Wait, wait. We have verbally come to that point. Now, to actually realize it and break it – you follow what I mean? – to step out of that pattern of creating patterns and all the rest, to step completely out of it, what will make you?
38:51 Q: See that it’s a poison.
38:54 K: What sir?
38:55 Q: See that it is a poison... (inaudible) realise that it’s a poison.
39:00 K: Ah, what will make you?
39:03 Q: Well, the only thing I could say is intuition.
39:05 K: Ah, no, don’t… No, no, don’t introduce another word. What... sir?
39:11 Q: Suffering makes you.
39:13 Q: (Inaudible).
39:14 K: Ah, good God. No, no, suffering is the last thing. It’s the most stupid thing, suffering. Sorry (laughs). Suffering doesn’t make you realise anything except one’s own stupidity.
39:33 Q: No, but I mean to stop doing it. It doesn’t make you realise it, but you have to stop it.
39:39 K: Ah, no, no; do please, just listen. We have discussed, we have gone into it and we see we are caught in this prototype, pattern, system, frame. Now, what will make me... what will break it? Put it to yourself: what will break it?
40:06 Q: The urge for freedom.
40:10 K: No... (inaudible).
40:11 Q: (Inaudible).
40:12 K: No, I don’t... You see, you are still…
40:15 Q: You see, the trouble I find, sir, is that I’m finding myself wanting to break it. I’m fully conscious the thing is there...
40:22 K: All right, why don’t you break it? The urge, as she points out, the urge to be free. All right, you have the urge, why haven’t…? You follow?
40:42 Q: This would obviously, I mean, if you have this urge, you just… it’s not getting into the thing.
40:49 K: No... what...?
40:53 Q: We go around, because what make me to really see it, what means to see and we are again at the same. What means to see?
41:05 K: No, no sir. We have come.... Look sir, I have come to a blank wall; I’ve come to the end of the argument - you follow? - and I remain still with argument but no action, no explosion, no saying, ‘Well, I’m out.’ Next year when I... we meet again, we’ll talk about authority. You follow what I mean? So I say to myself why don’t I break it? What is the thing, what is the pill, what is the thing that will smash it? I know it should be smashed. I know it is poison. I know it is absurd to keep repeating the patterns, the change of patterns. I see all that and yet I keep on doing it. You follow? What will make me stop it?
42:08 Q: But I am not sure that it will be stopped. I know this...
42:13 K: Then... Wait...
42:15 Q: Because I... (inaudible) to speak about.
42:16 K: Then carry on. Then say, ‘Well, I’m sorry, I don’t understand. I’ll carry on. It isn’t an actual fact to me’ - you follow? - ‘I’ve heard you talk about it and it means really not very much to me.’ So carry on.
42:35 Q: But, sir, this thing can occur, surely, without any attempt. I mean…
42:42 K: No... Yes sir, but, you see, it does come when you have no answer, when you’re faced with it and not all the time slipping by. You follow what I mean?
43:01 Q: But what I was suggesting, if I may say, that we may, for instance, leave this problem and then forget about this altogether, and then we suddenly look back at this thing and find the thing is apparently (inaudible). Now, this seems to me a sort of thing which actually occurs.
43:18 K: Yes. Is that what is happening to us? It may happen day after tomorrow...
43:23 Q: Well, you can’t say that it will…
43:26 K: Ah, ah... I’m taking day after tomorrow, month to… I say no, don’t let it take… You see, you’re admitting ‘in the meanwhile.’
43:37 Q: Yes.
43:39 K: Ah... You don’t... when the doctor says you’re taking poison every day by eating something or another, you don’t say, ‘Well I’ll carry on for a few days more’ - you stop it, unless you like that particular food or smoke or drink, or whatever it is, and you say, ‘Well, please, give me an antidote to that’, and a good doctor says, ‘Go to blazes.’
44:15 Q: (Inaudible)... I do not know... (inaudible).
44:18 K: No, you see, sir… No, no, no. You see…
44:27 Q: I return to the fact what it means, ‘I see.’
44:30 K: Yes sir.
44:31 Q: ‘I see’ means that I identificate myself with your view…
44:34 K: Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. That is not identify…
44:38 Q: …when I see.
44:39 K: Ah, no, sir, I have no view, I have no point. I’m just saying look; look at yourself.
44:46 Q: If I don’t identificate myself with break, I break nothing.
44:51 K: Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. It’s much... No sir. Surely you’re not identifying yourself with the speaker’s words. You’re not identifying yourself with an idea. However descriptive those ideas are, those ideas are not the fact. You can’t identify yourself with the fact.
45:32 Q: With an action... (inaudible).
45:35 K: Ah, no, no, no. Which means again, identify myself with Christ, Buddha, with an idea, with a pattern, which means myself and the pattern and therefore a conflict, a contradiction, and therefore an adjustment, a constant travail, anxiety.
45:56 Q: (Inaudible)... options and persons, but I act, I see, I break. That is an action which is not only in the objective world...
46:05 K: Parlez en Francais (46:55).
46:07 Q: ..., that is in me too and if I identify myself with the process of ‘I break, I see’, then I see If I don’t identify myself with this action, I don’t see it.
46:20 K: No, no. Who... No, that... Sir, who is the I who identifies? I identify myself with a particular action. Who is the I? I’m sorry, we have been through this before, probably before you came, you see? I don’t want to… You understand, sir?
46:44 Q: Yes.
46:45 K: We have come to a point which is that something must break. You follow?
47:00 Q: But sir, it seems to me, and this other gentleman’s point over here was a sound one, that if you are in the state of fear and you see that, then you break it on the spot. Similarly, if we’re walking down the street and a policeman speak to us, we react a certain way, we notice that immediately and then we change. And we at this moment may not be in any particular state of authority and I think, it seems to me…
47:20 K: Ah, ah, ah, ah. I don’t quite see that. It is there in you. You may not see it.
47:26 Q: Well, that is the problem, isn’t it?
47:28 K: But I’m... we have... two days we have operated to see what the disease is, we have been on the table – you follow what I mean? – and you and I as doctors have operated on each other and we have seen.
47:43 Q: Well, I see the point that I am faced with this but not breaking it and I don’t know the answer to it. I don’t know why I don’t know. So I stay with that until I see it. I stay with it. But what do you mean by ‘staying with it’? Now, I notice that my mind is facing that fact with an attitude already, the attitude being… (inaudible).
48:26 K: Sir, look at that mountain - see it. You follow?
48:30 Q: Yes.
48:32 K: Wait, wait; wait just a minute. See it. What happens when you see it? You see how your mind is saying... you’re going around the contour, the shape of it, the snow, the whiteness, the curves, the shadows, the waterfall, and the few houses, the lovely green… You follow? You’re seeing. Your mind is taking the colour, dissecting - you follow? - choosing, recognising, but it is not seeing the whole. You are separate; you don’t see the whole thing. You follow?
49:23 Q: Yes... (inaudible).
49:24 K: Look at it for a few minutes and see if you can’t see the whole of it, not section, not part by part. Take the whole thing in. You drive a car, don’t you?
49:44 Q: Yes.
49:45 K: How do you drive a car? You don’t just see the front mudguard - wait - you see about three-hundred yards. As you observe far away, in... (inaudible) you take in everything.
49:58 Q: You do; that’s true.
50:02 K: But if you merely observe the front mudguard, you’ll have accidents.
50:06 Q: Yes.
50:07 K: So your mind takes in everything as you’re driving. Your mind sees more than the eye.
50:16 Q: Yes, it does.
50:18 K: Of course; of course. Now... You follow? In the same way look at fear, whole of it, not just little bits of fear. You see, sir, to look at that mountain, if you look at that mountain, your ideas interfere with it, don’t they?
51:08 Q: Yes.
51:09 K: The colour, the shape, the houses, recognition. You follow? Can you look at it without words? Can you?
51:28 Q: Yes.
51:29 K: Right? What happens when you look at it without words? I mean words of recognition: ‘Mountain, it is a stream, it’s a tree, it’s a house; oh, that’s a road, there’s a car going by, those are...’ You follow? Just to see without symbols, without words, without idea, without thought.
51:56 Q: Then I just feel the beauty… (inaudible).
51:58 K: Ah, ah, ah… You see, you are again talking about beauty (laughs).
52:06 Q: I am in a very new and quiet state, in this case.
52:14 K: You see, don’t you?
52:15 Q: Yes, I see.
52:16 K: Now... Wait, wait, wait. Can’t you look at fear... authority in the same way? Authority, which is the whole process of fear, security, identity, creation of an idea which becomes the pattern according to which we live, which becomes the authority – you follow? – the whole cycle of it, the whole process of it. Just to observe.
52:52 Q: That implies that your mind is working around...
53:00 K: You have done it for the last two days. Nom de un chien (53:50). You have done it. It was right that we should do it. Now we have come to a point, we have described that hill, we have seen the snow, the depth of the snow - you follow? - we have seen the road, what kind of car is going there, how highly polished it is, an old car, Mercedes or this or that… we have gone through all that. Now you say, ‘Can I look at it or without this analysis, without the word, without the symbol, without feeling, without saying, ‘Beautiful, ugly, nice, not nice, me and not me?’
53:37 Q: No, because as I look at it there’s a question in my mind: why can’t I break it?
53:43 K: Ah, no, no. Ah, no, you are... Look at it without asking, ‘Breaking, why am I in it?’ Just to look.
54:02 Q: I think because if everybody here to some extent, if we look at the mountain, the more we look at it, the greater is our perception of it, the more we appreciate it…
54:17 K: Yes.
54:18 Q: Now, with this thing, surely, I mean, we look at it for the first time and it’s like looking for a mountain, we don’t even know what it is.
54:22 K: But we have…
54:24 Q: But the more you look at it, to get the same sort of…
54:27 K: But you haven’t looked at it, my dear friend; you haven’t looked at it, because we have kept analysing, we have been dissecting, we have been explaining, ‘Is this right, is this wrong, what do you mean by authority, this is not authority, this is...’We’ve been... – you know? – we have operated on it, we have exposed it, we have put it on the table. Right? Now, look at the whole of that without word. Or is that not possible? That is possible. You follow?
55:05 Q: It’s easy.
55:06 K: That’s easy.
55:07 Q: That’s the point.
55:09 K: Because... Why, why, why? It doesn’t affect our life. Now, you can say, ‘Well... (inaudible).’ You follow? But this affects our life tremendously.
55:20 Q: Yes, obviously to be a most fundamental...
55:25 K: So, so, so... You have discovered something, which is, you can look at something which doesn’t effect you very easily, but it’s impossible to look at something which has a deep meaning to you. And I say why don’t you do the same thing, though it has deep meaning, the same... look at it the same way? As a scientist looks – you follow what I mean? – in the same way look at it.
56:02 Q: But is it possible, such a thing?
56:11 K: (Inaudible). Why ask me? You have looked at that.
56:18 Q: (Inaudible).
56:19 K: Wait. You have seen that. Why don’t you do the same inwardly?
56:23 Q: You don’t see... (inaudible).
56:29 K: Because – I’ll show you why – because you don’t want to look at it the same way because it’s going to affect your life. You might do things which will not be the (Italian 57:40) way of doing it. You probably do all kinds of things and therefore you don’t want to look at it that way. Unconsciously you know what will happen if you look that way, therefore you say, ‘Sorry, I can’t look.’ You follow? That’s easy, but to look at myself, knowing what will be - you follow? – ah, not knowing; whatever happens will happen. I look, whether I break with my wife, with my family, with my husband, job, it doesn’t matter, I look. That look will dictate what I‘m going to do. You follow? I’m not going to dictate to the look, say; ‘I won’t look, because I’m afraid.’ You follow what I’m talking? If I look, that look is going to alter my life and I shan’t be afraid then. You follow? What will happen... inaudible). It’s like that river going through. You see, we are preventing ourselves from looking because we are afraid what will happen. I’m afraid of breaking my habitual thinking, habitual relationship, habitual attitudes, which are all so settled - you follow? – they’re all dead and I want to live in that state of dull, heavy, stupid, withering-away state. I don’t... because if I look, something may alter and I’m afraid of that.
59:18 Q: But one is not consciously afraid.
59:22 K: Ah, yes, you are. Consciously?
59:25 Q: No.
59:26 K: No, but unconsciously probably you are. You mean to say you’d drop all your Buddhism?
59:32 Q: Consciously, yes... (inaudible).
59:35 K: Ah, who cares…? Unconsciously.
59:39 Q: (Inaudible).
59:40 Q: It must mean the unconscious is preventing me... (inaudible).
59:45 K: I’m asking you...
59:47 Q: Consciously I’m...
59:48 K: Ah, conscious you can throw out... (inaudible) no importance, but unconsciously. The years you have spent on the idea of Buddhism, meditation, concentration, nose-gazing, achieving certain results and experiments and experiences. You follow?
1:00:04 Q: Yes.
1:00:05 K: It’s all there unconsciously and you say; ‘My God, must I give up all that?’
1:00:11 Q: But I don’t see it. I don’t see the unconscious.
1:00:22 K: But I’m telling you.
1:00:23 Q: You’re telling me but I don’t see it.
1:00:24 K: Now, why don’t you see it?
1:00:26 Q: Because it doesn’t come into my mind.
1:00:30 K: Why?
1:00:31 Q: (Inaudible).
1:00:32 K: It’s so simple. Why? You don’t want... (inaudible) to come up.
1:00:35 Q: (Inaudible).
1:00:36 K: Obviously.
1:00:37 Q: Why obviously?
1:00:38 K: No?
1:00:39 Q: No.
1:00:40 K: What do you mean?
1:00:41 Q: Well, if that were obvious to me, I would let it come up.
1:00:46 K: Ah, no, no. Obviously in the sense…
1:00:51 Q: (Inaudible).
1:00:52 K: Look, sir, I’ve spent ten years meditating, doing all kinds of things to myself and to say, ‘Good God, what a stupid thing I’ve done’, to say that to oneself and be... recognise it, very few people want to do that. We want to justify, we want to explain, we want to rationalize: ‘What’s wrong? This I have achieved; this I’ve learnt; this I’ve experienced.’ You follow? It’s all there unconsciously.
1:01:25 Q: Yes, I recognise that... (inaudible).
1:01:32 K: Therefore you don’t... the unconscious says, ‘Don’t disturb me; leave me alone.’ You play with words... conscious you can throw it out, but it’s still there.
1:01:47 Q: But I don’t see how to dig into that unconscious.
1:01:51 K: How do you get into the unconscious.
1:02:01 Q: Surely it’s only brought up under a crisis of some kind, when you have to meet…
1:02:07 K: There is the crisis now. I say what’s the matter with you... (inaudible) inside. Deep down you’ve got all the storehouse of absurd ideas, why don’t you throw it out? You say, ‘No...’ You see, that is exactly what is happening with all of us: it’s there, we don’t want to say, ‘Let me look. For God’s sake, break it up.’ You see, sir, I want to know – know in the sense… we understand ‘know’ – I want to understand, know, see the implications, the nuance, the subtleties, the extraordinary depth of authority. I want to go into it. And I don’t want to be deterred, I don’t want to be distracted, because that’s my interest - you follow? - I want complete understanding of it. Whatever action will spring from that... understanding is available to me, whether I leave the church, whether I marry some... – you follow? – that’s all secondary issue and therefore irrelevant. I want to learn about the whole anatomy of authority. But we don’t want to do that. We say, ‘What will happen if this…?’ So you’re more concerned with what will happen rather than saying, ‘Well, let me look, let me understand, study, look at the extraordinary swiftness of...’ You follow?
1:04:12 Q: Yes. We don’t want to be disturbed.
1:04:17 K: Not only disturbed, but one’s mind has become so lazy, so dull, not quick enough - you follow what I mean? - subtle enough to follow, because authority is extraordinarily subtle. It isn’t just authority - you follow what I mean? - it expresses itself every day in different ways. You see, sir, I mean, we are just on the edge of things, you know?
1:05:05 Q: (Inaudible)... gaping precipice, that’s the difficulty.
1:05:07 K: Yes, yes, but you see... I want to go into it much more, which is, when the mind that is really free from authority, what is that state of mind? You follow? I want to find out - you understand? - not verbally... I want to put away authority completely - you know? - like rain washing the tree off all dust and then what is that state of a leaf which is completely washed clean? You follow? In the same way, the mind must be in a most extraordinary state when there is no authority. You can’t image it; don’t enter into a kind of meditative... (inaudible) rubbish. But you have to find it out. You follow?
1:06:19 Q: Je n’ai pas realement rechasser tout forme de autorité (67:35)
1:06:32 K: Bien; c’est finit.
1:06:37 Q: Je ne peux pas savoir exactement ce qu’y se passera, je ne peut que spéculer lá-dessus.
1:06:57 K: Ah, non, c’est inutile. You see, we discussed too, the other day, how we are second-hand, literally second-hand, and what is a mind that is not second-hand? You follow? That must be the most extraordinary state. So I say all right, I don’t know what that state is, it’s stupid of me to speculate because my mind is too damn silly, so I begin. I say what is second-hand? Authority, fear - you follow what I mean? -, operate, find out and see if it is at all possible for a mind to be... for a mind that is not the result of somebody else – you follow? – society, wife, children, name, God, propaganda, reaction, authority - you follow? - and whether it’s possible. You see... not, ‘Oh, you say so. Let me try’, but I want to know. Probably that is really innocency, you see? I mean, those are all words and... Let’s skip those words. But… I mean, that seems to me so extraordinarily urgent.
1:08:53 Q: But you yourself can’t experiment with that state… (inaudible).
1:09:02 K: I can’t. When this disappears – you follow? – authority, etc., etc., the other is. I don’t know what it is, I can’t tell you. But first let’s get rid of – you know, ‘get rid’... - there must be freedom from this.
1:09:20 Q: Because that’s what I see my mind doing; it experiments with, one projects what... how it would feel to be... (inaudible).
1:09:27 K: Ah no, that’s all too immature, too childish. It’s like my sitting here and say what is on the other side of the mountain?
1:09:33 Q: Sure, and then I don’t like what I see.
1:09:36 K: You have to get up and go, uproot your moorings. So we don’t want to uproot – you follow? – we sit here comfortably and say, ‘Well, let’s talk about.’
1:09:59 Q: (Inaudible)… armchair adventure.