Krishnamurti Subtitles home


GSBR74DT02 - Are we still working in the traditional field?
Gstaad, Switzerland - 28 July 1974
Discussion with Teachers 02



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s 2nd discussion with teachers in Gstaad, 1974.
0:10 Krishnamurti: What do we do?
0:21 I don’t know if you have thought any more about what we were talking last time we met here.
0:31 We were talking about responsibility.
0:40 I think we ought to talk about it a little more, don’t you?
0:50 I think, if I may point out — please correct me, I am not an oracle – I think we have reached a certain point at Brockwood and I think we ought to open the doors to something new, a new flow.
1:12 It doesn’t mean that what we have done is not right or wrong – what has happened is right.
1:23 Now, what can we do to… You understand what I am talking about?
1:37 Would you tell me? (Laughs) Dorothy Simmons: To deepen what has already been begun. The house is there, the grounds are there, there’s a home, and that has taken a certain amount of energy and time to establish, and now you are saying look at what is there.
2:05 And what I see is all right but it’s not enough. I want to deepen it.
2:12 K: Yes.
2:13 MS: I think your description of the raw product that comes to Brockwood is a little unfair.
2:21 I mean, in many of them not merely is there a glow, but even a flicker of a flame, whereas the little monkeys that you rather referred to is not the sort of set pattern that arrives.
2:31 K: No, I understand that, of course.
2:33 MS: I think perhaps you rather exaggerated that side.
2:36 K: Of course.
2:46 I was only being funny. I mean, we are talking amongst ourselves who are going to be permanently at Brockwood – isn’t that right?
2:57 – not who will next year leave – who are going to make Brockwood their home, work there, spend their life there, and create the place, with you and all of us together.
3:17 Is that right? Right, sir? At least, that’s what I understood. Right? Starting from that basis, on that basis, what can we do?
3:37 We have got a place, a beautiful place, convenience, school, students, and we reach a certain point.
3:54 From there we must move to wider fields and wider rivers and all the rest of it.
4:02 And what can we do?
4:32 (Pause) Given all this — I may be talking nonsense but just listen to it — given all this, the environment, the people who are really concerned, who understand somewhat the teachings and so on and so on, given all that, the soil, can we produce — please bear with me, the words I use; I may misuse the words — can we produce human beings who are really…
5:31 who have got the quality of the genius? You understand, sir?
5:43 Can we bring about human beings who are really extraordinarily — you know?
5:51 — everything that man should be? Can we bring this about?
6:02 That’s really the point.
6:12 (Pause) Ted Cartee: Would it be helpful to look at what kind of person we are talking about?
6:27 MS: If you do that then you have got a model.
6:31 K: Yes. You understand, sir? I send you my son, my daughter. He has come from a fairly decent family, a family somewhat serious, somewhat religious, intellectual, and so-called fairly moral people.
7:06 I send my son there. I want him to be something outstanding — you understand?
7:17 Wait, I’ll tell you — morally, intellectually, religiously, I want him to be a free man, not beaten down, not be corrupted by money, by sex, by all the things that go on in the world.
7:49 I want him to be a fundamental revolutionary.
7:57 You understand? Not political, religious – in the real sense of the word, a religious revolutionary.
8:09 Which means he’ll be a whole man and therefore affect the whole field of his life.
8:21 I send him, hoping that you will create this, you will make him into that. Not a pattern – you follow? — which you are going to force him into, or an ideal according to which he is going to live, but live it.
8:41 You follow? To have supreme intelligence so that he will know what to do when he grows up.
8:56 MS: Well, we can’t say exactly what we would do but we can say that these meetings and discussing it and hearing you talk like this, clarifies it as we go away.
9:07 K: Of course.
9:08 MS: And we mightn’t be able to say at any time, ‘Well, this is what we propose to do,’ but...
9:12 K: Of course, sir.
9:13 MS: But the fact of what we are doing now is the answer to your question ‘what are you going to do’, really, to my mind.
9:18 K: Yes. So, that’s what we are doing. Now, can we together as a group of people dedicated to this, concerned with this, who are going to spend their life with this, can we help to bring this into being?
9:42 If he is an artist, he is a top artist — you follow? — not just second-rate, and so on and so on.
9:56 Q: Sir, could I ask the question in a different way? Are you asking whether we can change in such a fundamental way, can we then transmit to the students what you may be trying to transmit to us now?
10:13 K: Sir, if you waited for you to transform yourself and then transform the child, the student — that’s what you are asking – that might take years, or it might take the next day.
10:33 So you say, ‘Wait till I transform.’ DS: Krishnaji, but we’re not saying that.
10:39 Q: No, we are not saying this.
10:42 DS: We are not saying that. We have said without money, without teachers, without students, we have started; and so I think it is a questionable question to say, ‘Can we do it?’ The thing is, we are attempting to do it now.
10:58 And you are saying, ‘Look, go on, deepen it, you have been busy with other things, now can you bring all your attention…’ K: That’s all I am saying.
11:07 DS: Yes, but you can’t say whether you can do it.
11:10 K: No, no, I am asking...
11:15 Q: Are you not posing, in fact, an impossible question?
11:20 K: No, sir. Listen to what Mrs Simmons says. Mrs Simmons says we are doing it, only deepen it, only make the river not so shallow, widen it…
11:39 DS: And deepen it.
11:40 K: …let the waters flow much more.
11:42 MS: And I forget how Walt Whitman puts this, but he says the sort of measure of the teacher is whether the pupil can outdistance the teacher.
11:49 K: Yes, you are outdistancing all the time.
11:51 MS: It’s what we want, somebody who outdistances us.
11:54 K: That’s all I am asking. I am not saying you are not doing it. I am not saying, ‘Have you done it?’ but I feel we have reached a point where we have got to dig much deeper, open the dykes much more.
12:17 DS: Yes. Well, we’ve got the building, so to speak, we’ve got the background.
12:21 K: We have said that. We have got the background, we have got the building, we have got the students, we have got the place, we have got a little money – we have got necessary things.
12:32 DS: Yes. And you’ve established relationships with people who say, ‘Yes, I want to join that.’ K: Yes. We have taken five years to do that. Doris Pratt: Yes, but then you talk about producing the finest possible artists. I don’t think we are thinking in those terms.
12:45 K: No, no, no.
12:46 DP: That’s what you said.
12:47 K: I said that. I am asking… I am only saying, if we have children in that flow, can we throw up people who are top in everything?
13:05 DS: In their discovery, as we go along from day to day, will they take the lead, will they go on, will they add their energy to it?
13:16 K: Who? The children?
13:18 DS: The children and students, you’ll learn together in a day, in a life. But it’s the actual seeing the necessity of doing it finds the way.
13:34 K: No, when I said, ‘Can we do it?’ the ‘can’ is not ‘are we capable?’ - it is a question of asking what should be done.
13:52 You understand? How do we break down, expand, dig deep, open the barriers so the waters will flow?
14:05 That’s all I am asking. I am not saying that we haven’t dug… all the rest of it.
14:13 DS: And did we say last time that we had tried reasoning, we had tried example, we had tried every possible way of… and nothing very profound had happened, and was there another approach?
14:39 K: That’s… of course.
14:44 MS: Which doesn’t mean to say you throw over all those things until you find it.
14:51 K: Oh no, of course not. Of course not.
14:53 MS: You carry on until the new way shows itself.
14:57 K: You understand, sir? I have tried, let’s say in the school we have tried being kind – you know, all the rest of it.
15:09 That will go on. But we asked, as she points out, is there a different way of doing this?
15:21 BJ: Sir, from what I understood — I wasn’t here last time but it was explained to me - that different way puts the onus totally on ourselves, on ourselves to transform ourselves.
15:35 K: No, sir, that wasn’t what I meant. Sorry. That’s understood, but that’s not what I meant.
15:50 Do you know what I meant?
15:51 DP: You spoke about the flame of caring, really caring for our children and caring for each other.
15:57 K: No, that we do.
15:58 Q: You spoke about responsibility.
15:59 Q: Sir, you spoke of something that occurred despite oneself, because everything else took place was traditional, everything else was either good or bad, we have tried all the methods.
16:10 So you bring us to the point at which...
16:13 MS: No, you get to the point where all of us together here, do we all of us together here see that and feel that it ought to be?
16:24 If we do then it will happen.
16:25 K: Yes.
16:26 MS: If the whole group here who are working it feel that we can now move on to the next stage…
16:32 K: That’s right.
16:33 MS: …if we all feel it together it will happen.
16:35 K: Yes.
16:36 MS: But if one or two of us are sort of going, ‘Well, I don’t quite agree with that but...’ DS: (Inaudible) Yes.
16:40 K: And also — that’s one point — and also, are we — I am just asking, I am not saying we are not — are we still working in the traditional field?
17:00 You know what I mean by the traditional field?
17:03 Q: Yes.
17:08 BJ: What do you mean by the traditional?
17:15 K: Being kind, which is necessary, being concerned with each person, which is necessary, giving our time to each student, which is necessary, exams, necessary, or not necessary according to the students, food, care, all that.
17:40 I would call all that traditional, which any good, modern, highly intelligent group of teachers want to do that.
17:52 That is happening in America and everywhere else. I would call that traditional. Are we still working in the area of tradition?
18:04 DS: On that level, but also taking it further.
18:07 K: I don’t know, I am asking. Are we working… You can push the tradition — you follow? - make the traditions… have been narrow, wide, but it is still within that area.
18:23 DS: Yes.
18:25 K: I am asking, I am not saying you are or you are not. Are we working still within the area of tradition? Just a minute, just a minute, I am getting myself… clearing for myself.
18:40 Or are we working in an area which is not bound by tradition?
18:54 You follow what I mean? Which is, if we could get at that, tradition can be used or not used, it’d have quite a different effect.
19:08 I don’t know if I am conveying what… I understand it but I am trying to get words for it. You see, may I be a little bit traditional?
19:32 I don’t like to talk about it, but it’s this: there is the good tradition, which exists right through the world.
19:53 That’s being destroyed but it exists. And that has got a tremendous weight.
20:05 And there is also a field which exists of a nature that is not… let’s call it…
20:28 I hate these words — let’s call it holy, for the moment. Don’t jump on that word. There are these two fields: the traditional field which is not holy — h-o-l-y — and there is a field which is.
20:50 Can we tap that field? You understand what I am saying? Because that field when it is tapped does astonishing things. I wonder if I am conveying anything.
21:13 Does this sound insane? You are a physicist.
21:21 Q: Well, I wouldn’t say it sounds insane but I must say that I don’t have much of a feeling for what you say.
21:26 K: No, no. No, no. No, no, it’s not a question of feeling. You know, sir, say for instance, war with all its hate and all that, that exists, that hate, doesn’t it?
21:46 It is not dissipated, it is in the air. Right? It’s not your having a feeling or… it exists.
21:59 Right?
22:00 Q: Hate as a...
22:02 K: Hate, brutality, violence, killing - in the air, in the atmosphere, in the home, it exists.
22:10 Q: There are people who hate.
22:13 K: Armies are preparing for it, governments are preparing for it. So it exists. Right?
22:24 Q: Through ignorance.
22:26 K: It exists. We don’t say through ignorance or not ignorance. It exists. And also there is a field which goodness — let’s call it for the moment — goodness exists.
22:44 Right? Agree?
22:46 Q: All right. People who don’t…
22:52 K: Who are good.
22:54 Q: …function in a hateful way, you mean?
22:56 K: In a hateful way. Who are really deeply religious, in the right sense of that word, won’t kill.
23:04 That exists too.
23:06 Q: Yes.
23:10 K: Right? So these two exist. Right? And there is another field which goes beyond the two.
23:42 BJ: So would you associate that with wisdom?
23:56 K: I don’t like to give it a name yet; I am just probing into it.
24:05 Sir, look — I hate to talk about this but there it is — there are these two fields.
24:20 Right? Man spends most of his time and his energy and his capacities in this field of hate — you follow?
24:29 — antagonism, wars, all that.
24:30 Q: Or goodness, as you said.
24:33 K: And somewhat in goodness - somewhat, not entirely. He spends more his energy in this rather than this. Right? And there is an energy — bound to be, must be - there is an energy which doesn’t belong to either, because both these energies are in the… are controlled by man.
25:05 I don’t know if I am...
25:08 TC: You mean people who want to be good and people who want to be hateful are similar, and there is another...
25:17 K: Keep… No, they are similar but I am keeping them separate purposely.
25:24 TC: Yes, but...
25:25 K: Look, sir, haven’t you looked at it? War — wars — right through the world for centuries and centuries has created such an atmosphere, hasn’t it, historically?
25:43 And also there has been good people. That has also created an atmosphere. These two fields or areas are within the man’s perception — I don’t know — man’s capacities.
26:08 And we are trying from the one area to move into the other area: goodness.
26:17 Right? We are trying to move from this to that. It seems to me that is still traditional.
26:28 Q: So you’re saying, sir, that these are two aspects of one movement, and there is a movement… (inaudible) K: Ah, there are two… No, don’t... I want to move to something else. And we have spent our energies in these two fields, and I think there is another area where if we can touch it, that gives us an energy which doesn’t belong to either.
26:52 I don’t know if I am conveying anything.
26:53 MS: Yes.
26:54 DS: Yes. Mary Zimbalist: Krishnaji, are you suggesting that the two fields emanate from man, man’s activities?
27:03 K: Yes, yes, yes.
27:04 MZ: Whereas the other...
27:05 K: The other is not. Does that make any sense?
27:12 Q: Yes.
27:13 Q: Yes.
27:15 K: And I believe we can touch it. And when we touch it we shall transform what we are doing. I wonder if I am conveying. Sir, this is… You see, sir, this is put in different terms by religious people.
27:35 Not by the scientists, not by the artists - by the really profound religious people.
27:44 Not saints. I don’t… saints are man-made. But by those who have gone beyond the two.
28:03 Now, I believe if we could open the door to that, it will operate.
28:14 It is as real as the atmosphere, the structure of war, evil, destruction; as real as people trying to be good, kind, the Quakers — you follow? — all that.
28:29 It is as real as this. Does that make any sense? (Laughs) TC: But to have this operate, this other field operate.
28:45 If we are in these other fields how do we...
28:51 K: That’s it, sir. That’s why I ask: are we still operating in these two fields? You follow? We reject this field — war, hate, antagonism and all the rest of it. We are trying to be something still man-made. As Mrs Zimbalist points out, both are man-made. Right?
29:20 TC: Yes.
29:21 K: There is an energy which is not man-made.
29:30 Sir, I can practise meditation, I can practise being good, I can love another completely, but it is still – you follow? — within the field of the things which man has made and made, all the rest of it.
29:57 Now, can we get to the other? Now, you are saying: how am I to get to the other - is that it? - if it exists?
30:08 TC: Well, I have heard other people ask you that same question before.
30:14 K: Oh, dozens of times.
30:21 Now, you can’t obviously get to it by man-made ways, by man-made virtues - right? — by man-made vows of celibacy, chastity, poverty.
30:46 You follow? This has been done in India, in Japan, in Europe, everywhere.
30:57 So, what? When you listen – just a minute – when you listen to this - right? - I am telling you this, when you listen to it what is your reaction?
31:13 What do you feel?
31:18 TC: I am not used to being in an area where I have no… nothing to say, no understanding.
31:30 K: No, sir. You know the area of war — let’s call it that for the moment. You know the area of goodness. We know what we mean by these two areas. And, as has been pointed out, these two areas are man-made, therefore material, materialistic.
31:54 Right?
31:56 TC: Right.
32:00 K: And man also has searched something beyond the material, these two.
32:09 TC: As a hypothesis, sometimes.
32:12 K: Ah, no, some… No, not as a… He said, these two are unsatisfactory, these two don’t satisfy a really deep intelligent man.
32:29 Obviously. Right?
32:31 TC: Right.
32:33 K: And so he says: is there an area where man-made things have little place?
32:49 Sir, scientists are doing the same thing.
32:53 TC: As a question from those two fields. It’s a question...
32:59 K: Not from those fields. The man says, ‘I know these two fields very well. I have been in them. I know all their intricacies, all their problems, all their mischief, all their sorrows, affections.
33:15 I know them very well. But they are unsatisfactory.’ Right? Not that I want satisfaction or gratification - these… it’s like a small affair.
33:34 You understand? I want to see the heavens, not little man-made heavens. You follow? So scientists are asking; you ask it in a different way, the religious people have asked it a different way.
33:50 So I am asking: can we as a group discern that?
33:59 Discern in the sense, get contact with it.
34:07 Not spiritualism and mysticism, and you know all that blah comes into it; I don’t mean that at all.
34:16 Recognizing these two as man-made and therefore totally incomplete, is there something which is totally complete?
34:36 You understand? And can my mind get it, capture it, look at it?
34:44 TC: Can I ask, this point about complete and incomplete, to me is essential or primary, that noticing the tendency to look at things in little bits but as though it were…
35:10 K: …the whole.
35:11 TC: …the whole. That noticing that, starts a… (inaudible) K: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You see, the Hindus translated it as, there is a state, which they call Brahman and so on, there is a state which man can come upon when he discards completely these two.
35:49 I am putting it in my way; they don’t put it that way; they have their own terminology, their own ways of expression.
35:56 The Christians have said it. The real Christians, not the phoney ones, have said in their own way: man must go beyond all this.
36:14 Right, sir? I am asking myself — just a minute — I am asking myself, if I am here as a teacher with a group of you, I say, ‘Now, I have tried the traditional ways’ – right? – these two, in the school.
36:36 I haven’t beaten them but I have tried all that.
36:43 I am not satisfied with these two. You understand? It doesn’t give me the flame, the passion, the drive, the fire.
36:57 It doesn’t give me, these two. If it gives me, I am still a social reformer. You understand? I want fire, passion, so that I create out of that passion.
37:12 TC: You undoubtedly have met people who have a passion and a fire that’s driven by association with some...
37:23 K: Ah, that… I don’t mean that.
37:25 Q: Right. But they themselves are deluded, they don’t see that they are...
37:30 K: Quite right. Are you applying that to me?
37:33 Q: No, I am asking myself.
37:34 K: I am willing to… (inaudible) Q: I am asking… How do I know, how can I tell that, you know, that my fire and my drive is...
37:41 TC: This is my question about complete… or my looking at the complete and the incomplete.
37:46 K: Not quite, Ted. I want to look at it. He is asking a different question. I think he is asking a different question, I may be mistaken. He is saying, the man in this area, A, has got a great deal of passion.
38:09 To organize killing needs tremendous energy, inventive processes, instruments of war — you follow? — that needs tremendous…
38:18 Q: I just want to be corrected. How… You see, I… in the way I see that, I see him feeling a completeness where it really is a very, very… through a pipe…
38:32 K: Yes, yes, yes.
38:33 Q: Yes, yes.
38:35 K: And also in the man of the goodness.
38:37 Q: Right, right.
38:38 K: And that’s why she said they are both man-made.
38:40 Q: But if you this and you toss them away… You see these things. If you see his passion comes from his desire to be thought well of, or whatever, and if you see these motives in yourself and you get rid of them, or…
38:58 You see them, and yet you know there is this passion. I mean, obviously people can well it up. So what are you saying… (inaudible) K: But it is still man-made.
39:09 Q: Yes, but it’s man-made because it wells up through a motive, through thought.
39:14 K: Yes, yes, yes.
39:16 Q: So if we are looking for a method of welling up this passion without the thought, in another means, how can we look, you know, look at it with thought?
39:35 K: My lady, that’s what we are trying to find out.
39:38 Q: But this tool of looking at it.
39:40 K: We are coming to that. We are not going to get it in half a minute, we are going to discuss, we are talking it over so that we’ll find out.
39:48 We must state the problem very clearly to ourselves. The problem is this: we have and we are, we may still be – I am not saying you are — working in this man-made area.
40:05 Right? Our education is in this field, our contact is still more or less within this field.
40:14 Now I am saying: can we get into another area from which miracles happen — don’t jump on the word ‘miracle’ — from which something new takes place?
40:39 I don’t know how to put all this. Look, sir, isn’t it your problem as a physicist? Man has been through all this, and a good physicist says or a good scientist says, ‘I want to find out an area where… or a state from which all life flows.’ You understand?
41:12 I am putting it… You understand, sir? From which… the beginning of everything. I don’t…
41:22 Q: But we haven’t done that.
41:25 K: No, we haven’t done that. Can we do it?
41:28 Q: That’s why I am not a physicist.
41:30 K: I am going to… we must find out. Can we as a group come to that? Otherwise we will be treading in this field of goodness… You follow?
41:46 Q: Well, we can’t do it through physics.
41:47 K: No, no, not through physics.
41:49 Q: All right.
41:50 K: The physicist is trying to come upon that. Right?
41:54 Q: Some are, yes.
41:56 K: Some are, that’s what I mean. Now, can we as a group come upon that?
42:11 What I was saying the other day, a new approach. You follow? Not the traditional business.
42:17 MZ: Does it evolve in any way? There is no progression out of these to that.
42:23 K: No, obviously.
42:24 MZ: It’s totally…
42:25 K: I can’t progress or go forward by becoming more and more and more good, more and more kind, more and more considerate.
42:33 Ah, for God’s sake. Am I making myself clear?
42:43 Mrs D? (Pause) DS: I feel something of it.
43:07 K: Ah, not something - I want to see all of it.
43:17 Q: I get the feeling of a very creative picture of… not knowing, of course, not knowing where you are going but having this feeling that let’s be very careful that we are not continuing what is known.
43:46 Let’s really look at what is happening at Brockwood, let’s say, as we are talking about, let’s see where the tradition is lying at Brockwood, where it’s functional and where it’s not.
43:57 K: Ah, not quite.
43:59 TC: It would seem that in this room is where we are looking at it.
44:08 I mean...
44:09 K: I want you… That’s my whole point. Look, Mrs D, it’s like this. You can have a first-class school on the traditional lines.
44:31 I mean by traditional, really top people who are absolutely, deeply good — good in the large sense of that word, not just a bourgeois word — that they will never kill — you follow? — all that.
44:54 That is still very small. Right? It hasn’t got this spark of the eternal, divine, or whatever you like to call it.
45:07 Right? Now, can the spark of that something burst in us?
45:19 Otherwise we will be playing with this.
45:26 I am not saying that’s not necessary but that won’t have this – you know? – the depth of water, depth of unending volume of water.
45:44 I wonder if I’m… I don’t know how to put it more… It’s like turning on a good tap.
45:51 DS: (Laughs) I wish it were!
45:55 K: And the good tap will produce water, hot water, cold water. All the rest is man-made. But the other thing is the river flowing. I wonder… It’s simple enough.
46:09 DS: Isn’t it meeting life, Krishnaji?
46:11 K: Ah, don’t translate it yet, for God’s sake! I’m not meeting life. I don’t want to meet life. This stupid life? Of sex, and not sleeping with one girl or sleeping with another girl or a boy - what? Meeting life.
46:33 DS: Well, in a way that’s meeting death more. I mean, how you meet…
46:38 K: I’ve been through all that. I said that’s not good enough.
46:42 DS: Yes, but we’re saying that also.
46:45 K: I want volumes of water flow to through me, not just the little driblets.
46:57 Q: What’s stopping this water? What’s preventing this?
47:00 DS: Getting caught up in this girl, that girl, sex, enjoyment, all the rest of it.
47:04 K: And therefore, look what happens. Therefore get rid… I must control myself, I must have little sex, more sex, no sex…
47:12 DS: Not necessarily.
47:14 K: That is generally what takes place.
47:17 DS: It’s generally what takes place but...
47:18 K: Therefore I am still within the man-made area.
47:21 DS: Yes.
47:22 K: When you say ‘meet life’ that’s still man-made life.
47:28 TC: Well, can we get closer in this room in appreciating, in...
47:44 K: I understand, Ted.
47:53 I think I understand what you are trying to say. Look, I am trying to convey to you that these two areas, A and B, aren’t good enough for me.
48:15 I say, for God’s sake move away from that blasted area, because that’s what man has done.
48:27 All man, beginning, these two areas. And we are trying to produce in B, which is good, in the B area, human beings who will reform society, make society better.
48:45 You follow? All that. But I feel that isn’t enough. That doesn’t give me — you follow? — it doesn’t open my heart out, my brain spaceless.
49:02 I wonder if...
49:03 MZ: And also we may be looking for the spaceless still in B.
49:10 K: That’s all. So I say to myself, ‘My God, how am I… how is that to be got?’ And my responsibility is to get that, then I’ll operate here.
49:27 You understand, sir? Then I will create a school that nothing on earth is…
49:35 Q: Sir, when I pose this question to myself, and now as I hear you, I don’t know whether you can sense the growing frustration but it’s certainly accumulative in here, and I think it’s with ourselves, or at least with myself, and it seems to me that you are asking my feet to walk away from myself and...
49:53 K: Of course.
49:54 Q: But I can’t, but they are not. But they are not!
50:01 K: Of course, sir! That’s not a frustration. You are frustrating yourself by saying, ‘I cannot.’ Q: But I was here the other day and I didn’t, and now I am here again and I...
50:19 K: No, no, no, no. No, you are missing the point. You are missing the point. Look, sir, I will not enter into these fields.
50:32 Q: Right.
50:34 K: It is necessary in only in B field, but I will not have my roots in these two.
50:44 I don’t know where I have my roots; I may have no roots at all; that may be the real thing.
50:59 Because I have no roots I am open to the whole of the heavens. You understand? How am I to talk any more about it?
51:15 Do you understand, Ted, what I am talking about?
51:19 TC: Yes, but getting out of B… I’ve seen what is happening here is that there’s thinking about, there’s considering what you mean and...
51:33 K: Not what I mean. How can you belong to either?
51:37 TC: Right. Now that question, that should be a fact. I mean, if that is a fact then one is looking bluntly at that.
51:51 K: So you cannot belong to these two.
52:00 Right? And does that mean that you have the eternal waters?
52:12 DS: If you really didn’t belong to those two, it might perhaps.
52:21 K: Then… not you might or might not - do you?
52:42 Q: It is not you, it seems, who has to talk better or more clearly. It seems to me that it’s me, that it’s us who have to transform but we’re... but…
53:00 K: Sir, look, sir, I have been, as a boy, Hindu, till the age of 8.
53:16 You understand? Tradition, the mother, father, extraordinarily orthodox people.
53:28 You understand? Living very simply, meditating, going to the temple, orthodoxy.
53:36 Q: Did it condition you? Did it condition you till 8?
53:40 K: It should have but didn’t.
53:41 Q: Oh, but it didn’t. Oh, it didn’t.
53:46 K: Wait, wait. Listen, sir. Then people adopted us, my brother. They said there is the Master — you follow? — who tells us that this boy is going to be etc., etc., cared for, looked after, watched over, never, never allowed to be by himself because people might corrupt…
54:19 You follow? Very carefully looked after. Then all that disappeared. And they said, ‘This is going to be the World Teacher.’ You understand?
54:39 And I was only a little boy of 14, 13, who knew nothing of all this. You understand what I am talking about? It went out — one ear and went out the other ear. You understand? Not conditioned, as a Hindu, Theosophist.
55:01 But they said, ‘That teacher who is eternal,’ all the rest of it, ‘is going to speak through you.’ Now what…
55:15 You understand? They translated it as a person. You understand what I am talking about? You don’t.
55:27 Q: Yes.
55:28 K: They translated it as a person whom they met on a different plane, who gave them messages and so on.
55:39 Now, just listen to this. It is not a person. You understand? Because a person becomes too small; when you are talking about heavens, to make one little…
55:53 You follow? Now, if you are brought up in that, either you get conditioned or destroyed.
56:04 You understand what I am talking about? Are you all listening as though… (inaudible) And can you now, all of you, can you be that?
56:22 You understand what I am talking about, sir? So that you are responsible to the most sacred thing.
56:33 I can’t put it any… Do you understand what I am talking about? It’s all so damned new to you. Do you understand what I am talking about?
56:46 TC: You would have us with no motive.
56:52 K: Ah, that’s… sir, much more than that. No motive, no... You understand, sir?
56:59 Q: Sir, aren’t you literally saying what this gentleman said, that you literally walk away from yourself and then something else operates?
57:10 K: Don’t put it that way. You don’t walk away from yourself. There is no ‘yourself’ - you walk away.
57:16 Q: No, I mean the ego.
57:18 K: No, no, don’t put it that way. That’s what they have done, that’s what the traditionalists have done. They have walked away from themselves and identified with something enormous, which is still themselves.
57:38 Q: Why don’t we see the obviousness of what you are saying?
57:45 K: I don’t know.
57:47 Q: Then why are you talking to us, I mean? Why am I listening here? This all sounds absurd to me. I don’t understand this. Myself…
58:04 K: Look, sir, I want my son to have the waters of life.
58:14 You understand? Waters, not man-made rivers and man-made waters - waters that have no ending and no beginning, that have no depth; immeasurable depth; I want him to have it, and it’s your responsibility.
58:36 And I say to you, ‘Look, don’t play around everlastingly with these two traditional fields.’ You understand?
58:45 And it is for you to find out.
58:55 That is creativeness — you understand, sir? — isn’t it?
59:00 Q: You know, sir, it seems that there is something — you know? — this seems to be a rarefied atmosphere in here...
59:10 K: Ah, no, no...
59:11 Q: No, please, let me finish this. And when we go out, as Mrs Simmons was saying, we lead our daily lives and we meet them and we don’t ask ourselves…
59:21 Let’s say there is something operating there, let’s say what you are talking about is operating, but here you seem to be posing a question that is now in this room translated in terms of thought and so the question… and so it becomes a problem.
59:37 K: Wait, I’ll show it to you, sir. First, you are the educators at Brockwood and I send you my son.
59:48 And I say to you, ‘Don’t work in these two fields because you will never… you will be dying of old age before you do anything, produce anything.
1:00:04 And it’s your responsibility as human beings to create this in this boy.’ Right?
1:00:17 Create it. Don’t ask me how.
1:00:35 But that is creation, isn’t it? Like creating a baby in your womb. You don’t say, ‘How am I going to create it?’ You have got the field, you have got the house, you have got the money, you have got the students, you have got everything there, and I say, for God’s sake don’t work in these two fields, because you will never do a thing in these two fields.
1:01:09 Right? What will you… Now, if that is deeply and abundantly clear...
1:01:18 Q: Sir, the word ‘creation’ implies making something that isn’t already there, which…
1:01:29 (inaudible) K: I don’t mean creation in the sense painting, this, that - that’s not creation, that’s...
1:01:36 Q: Yes, I know, I understand. What I am saying is, you are taking a child, everything that this child, that you are talking about, the child already possesses. I mean, perhaps it has to be shown to him, but it is not giving him anything.
1:01:49 K: No, sir. I am not saying give him anything. He comes to you conditioned. He comes to you with various forms of tendencies, drink, smoke, wanting to do this, wanting…
1:02:02 He comes to you like that. And I say, I have sent you my son who is already like that. Don’t go through these traditional fields because you will never do anything in those two traditional fields - or in the one traditional field, because you are not going to train him to kill.
1:02:26 So you will never do anything in that, through that field. Don’t go through that field. I say, bring it about, it’s your responsibility. Right, sir?
1:02:41 Q: It seems to be.
1:02:46 K: Can you do it? Not ‘can you’, that’s the wrong question. Do you feel the immense responsibility of it?
1:03:15 If we do, all of us together, we have done it.
1:03:22 Because we are not responsible to this, to the B field — you understand? — but we’ll be responsible to B as long as you say, ‘Now what shall I do, how is this to be transmitted, what am I to do with this child who is conditioned, who smokes, who drinks, who wants to do all kinds of things around behind my back?’ You follow?
1:03:53 (Pause) BJ: Excuse me, sir.
1:04:11 You’ve talked about this, if I may use the word ‘holy’ — you used the word ‘holy’ before.
1:04:25 K: I did.
1:04:26 BJ: And I feel that all those who are here have spent perhaps some years, a great deal of time working at looking at themselves, but it seems that...
1:04:37 K: I don’t want to look at myself, I have finished with it. Sorry!
1:04:43 BJ: But then how does one come upon this holiness? And what’s the relationship?
1:04:51 K: Sir, how am I to show Mr Jenkins, don’t look at those mountains, look beyond the mountains?
1:05:12 You understand? Beyond the mountains is the real thing, not these mountains. You understand? And you say, ‘My dear chap, how am I to look beyond the mountains when I am short-sighted, when I am angry, when I am jealous, when I am this, how am I to look beyond?’ He says, ‘For God’s sake, don’t start there, start from the other side.’ And you say, ‘What do you mean by the other side?
1:05:42 I don’t know the other side, I don’t know how to start from there.’ You follow?
1:05:50 And you are back again in the same principle. I wonder if you understand this. Am I making it too difficult?
1:05:59 Q: (Inaudible) K: Look, sir, I am on this side of the bank of a wide river and we have built houses here, beautiful schools, good children, and rotten military people — you know, we have done on this side everything man has made.
1:06:23 And we are still playing on this bank. And somebody comes along and says, ‘For God’s sake, friends, don’t do this because you will never get out from this bank.
1:06:36 Go to the other bank.’ Right? ‘Go to the other bank and everything will be settled for you, easily.’ And you say, ‘Now, I know the water exists; am I to take a boat, swim, what am I to do?’ And he says, ‘Just go to the bank,’ and leaves you.
1:06:57 What will you do?
1:07:04 What will you do? The ‘doing’ is the creative thing. You follow? It is not, ‘What am I to do?’ I can’t put it any more.
1:07:22 You understand, sir? You are a physicist.
1:07:33 I say, ‘Look through the microscope,’ and you have looked through the microscope and seen lots of things; and somebody comes along and says, ‘Don’t look at the microscope, it’s a very limited area, take your eyes away from it and look.’ And that’s all.
1:08:00 He says… leaves you there.
1:08:10 And I say, ‘Right, I have looked through the microscope, finished. Now I am going to look,’ because I am really interested, boiling to look.
1:08:22 Not how to look, what am I to do, what am I to say, what are the instruments of looking, are my eyes clear, or am I... should I put on…
1:08:29 I am going to burn to look. I wonder… I’ll stop talking.
1:08:36 MZ: One of the troubles in this is the sense of, ‘I am here, I am here, what will I do?’ — all the energy goes into not looking.
1:08:48 It’s looking around, and looking… being here and not at the other; and one pours one’s…
1:08:55 out of emotional frustration and various things into this, which digs you in deeper and deeper and deeper here.
1:09:04 Q: And the dependency on, sort of, on tools that one is familiar with.
1:09:09 MZ: The search for things that aren’t applicable in this to… it’s all miring you more in this side of the bank.
1:09:23 K: I leave my son in your charge, and you are responsible.
1:09:36 And I come back to you five years later, I want an answer. You understand? I have given my son, my money, my blood, and you are responsible.
1:09:52 I want an answer from you: ‘I am sorry I have not done, or I cannot, or something has happened which you won’t understand, you old fool.’ I want an answer from you.
1:10:18 (Pause) Q: Sir, can I express this — it’s slightly humorous but it just popped into the head?
1:10:59 I was listening to what Mary said, I mean, and to what you are saying and it is so obvious, there is the image of a chicken with its head cut off running around, looking for its head.
1:11:11 I have this crazy sense that that’s what is going on. If I would sit, lie down and die, I wouldn’t have the problem.
1:11:19 K: No, sir. If you feel responsible you wouldn’t do that.
1:11:39 You are responsible for another’s life — you understand, sir? — and you haven’t time to think about your life.
1:11:50 Your life is that boy’s life. I don’t know if you... But if you feel responsible then things happen.
1:12:02 (Pause) What time is it?
1:12:18 Q: A quarter after five.
1:12:33 K: Right, sir.
1:12:43 I think that’s enough, don’t you?
1:13:01 We can meet again.
1:13:06 DS: Let’s say when, Krishnaji, because... Let’s say when, now.
1:13:14 K: You settle with…
1:13:15 MZ: You start to speak on Thursday.
1:13:19 Q: Wednesday.
1:13:22 MZ: Is it Wednesday?
1:13:24 K: When is the 1st? Thursday.
1:13:27 Q: No, it’s the 31st.
1:13:28 Q: Thursday’s the 1st.
1:13:29 K: Thursday.
1:13:30 Q: Thursday’s the 1st.
1:13:31 DS: You speak on the 31st.
1:13:33 K: The discussions are on Thursday.
1:13:34 Q: No, the 31st, Wednesday.
1:13:36 DP: They start on Wednesday the 31st.
1:13:38 K: Oh, Wednesday the 31st?
1:13:39 DP: That’s right.
1:13:40 K: Oh, I beg your pardon.
1:13:42 MZ: (Inaudible).
1:13:43 K: (Inaudible) — that’s all right, then. On Wednesday the 31st. Oh, I see, not the 1st. So Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
1:13:54 Q: And Sunday.
1:13:55 K: Five discussions? Oh, I see. I didn’t realise it. So Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Right. You settle when you want it.
1:14:01 DS: Would you prefer it on a discussion day or…
1:14:06 K: Oh, sure.
1:14:10 MZ: It has to be.
1:14:14 MS: It has to be then.
1:14:15 MZ: Because at the end of that, everything’s over.
1:14:20 DS: Yes.
1:14:22 K: Oh, yes, you’re going to have Thursday.
1:14:30 MZ: (Inaudible) Q: Tuesday?
1:14:32 K: We’ll meet, sir, somehow.
1:14:33 MZ: Would you prefer it Tuesday when you’re not speaking in the morning?
1:14:35 K: You arrange it — I don’t care, I said. I really mean I don’t care if you say Tuesday, Thursday…
1:14:38 MZ: That’s the day before the talk. Would you rather…
1:14:41 K: Ah, discussion are… (inaudible) MZ: Would you rather have a full empty day?
1:14:46 K: No, I don’t mind on days of discussion, previously, because it’s only days of talking I have to talk the whole hour therefore I have to be…
1:14:53 MZ: You wouldn’t want a whole day of rest Tuesday, because you have meeting tomorrow?
1:14:58 K: What is Monday? That is tomorrow.
1:15:02 MZ: You have a full day tomorrow. You have Saanen gathering in the morning and another meeting in the afternoon.
1:15:09 K: Oh, yes.
1:15:10 MZ: So Tuesday will be your only day of rest before the discussions.
1:15:13 K: I don’t mind Tuesday.
1:15:14 Q: Tuesday.
1:15:15 Q: What time?
1:15:16 Q: Four again?
1:15:17 K: Whatever you all decide, sir.
1:15:18 Q: Four?
1:15:19 Q: In the morning?
1:15:20 K: What about the morning?
1:15:21 MZ: Would you rather in the morning?
1:15:24 K: Wouldn’t it be nicer in the morning? Bene, have it in the morning. Eleven?
1:15:29 DS: Eleven? All right, Tuesday at eleven. And may I just say those that are collected, collect in the same way – collect at half past ten the first lot and quarter to eleven the others?