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GSBR74DT03 - Is it possible to produce students who will never be conditioned?
Gstaad, Switzerland - 30 July 1974
Discussion with Teachers 03



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s 3rd discussion with teachers in Gstaad, 1974.
0:09 Krishnamurti: I don’t know… cominciare.
0:34 I wonder how far we have gone into that question what we were talking about the other day – when was it?
0:41 — Sunday afternoon.
0:52 We were saying, weren’t we, that so far, man’s approach to education, to life, everything, was along traditional lines – right? — the good and the bad; this must be done and that must not be done; this is right, that is wrong.
1:27 And we were trying the other day to see if there was a different kind of approach to education, to life, everything, from a totally different point of… from a totally different dimension.
1:43 Right?
1:53 I don’t know how far you have inquired into it in yourself and discussed; what do you feel, or what do you think, or how do you translate that into action, into teaching?
2:27 Students who are conditioned, who have all kinds of prejudices, demands, urges — how do we meet that?
2:42 Or – please, just listen — our responsibility — don’t jump on me — is not to the children, to the students.
3:09 Does that make any sense? Wait, wait, I’m going to go into it. Our responsibility is to the other; what we talked about the other day.
3:26 And that responsibility will translate into action in our own life and in the life of the community of a school.
3:40 Does that make any sense? Dorothy Simmons: Yes.
3:43 K: I am waiting for the physicist too (laughs).
3:51 Does that make any sense, Ted?
4:01 (Pause) If I may suggest, don’t translate it as responsibility to God — you follow?
4:18 That’s the Christian, the Hindu, the whole traditional world that says, ‘Be responsible to God, to the supreme, to the highest, to the noblest, to the immeasurable, and so on and so on, and that will translate.’ Montague Simmons: But that’s what they are trying to… they are trying to say some of the same thing using these symbols, aren’t they?
4:41 K: Yes. Now, I am preventing myself using those words and those symbols and all that.
4:53 Not preventing — I can’t do it somehow.
5:08 To go from there; to be anchored there and move from there.
5:17 I don’t know if I... Anchor — you can’t anchor in it in the sense of putting down an anchor and grappling and remaining in one place — but have the whole background of that, of that which we were discussing the other day.
5:47 I think this would demand, if I may put in something, that at Brockwood one needs to have leisure, not be occupied from morning till night.
6:15 We were talking about it yesterday when there was a Saanen Gathering committee meeting here, how all the people around K are all occupied from morning till night doing something or other; they have no leisure to sit, watch, look at themselves, meditate, be quiet.
6:33 DS: Do you have to sit and watch to do that, Krishnaji?
6:38 K: No, not sit - leisure, so as to...
6:43 DS: In action, aren’t you doing that?
6:49 K: Ah, ah. Ah, ah. Action is from there - not, you are doing that in action.
7:08 I don’t know if I am making myself clear. That’s why I want to make this point.
7:16 DS: But it seems there’s a gap between… It seems as though that makes a gap.
7:20 K: Ah, ah.
7:27 Now, let’s be clear.
7:35 What is wrong with leisure?
7:42 To have leisure to observe — the trees, the flowers, one’s own… — you follow?
7:51 — observe, be quiet. One must have leisure for that, mustn’t one? One can’t work, be occupied under a stress from morning till night.
8:06 Mustn’t one have some time to oneself? (Telephone rings) K: (Sir, would you pick up that telephone behind you? Just answer it. All right.) Q: (Do you speak English?
8:34 Could you call back?) K: (Ah, wait a minute, she is here, sir.) Mary Zimbalist: (Hello? (Inaudible)) (Pause) K: One can exaggerate by saying, ‘I must have time for myself.’ That’s what most people do.
9:27 And that time for themselves is merely indolence, laziness; in that withdrawal they become withered.
9:39 You follow? I am not talking of such useless waste of leisure.
9:46 Q: Well, they think they are being spiritual.
9:52 K: (Inaudible) Throw all that bilge out. Or complaining, ‘I have no time for myself.’ Brian Jenkins: Sir, are you saying that through having some time, say, to go for a walk alone or sit quietly...
10:08 K: Ah, no. No. No, no, no, I am not going alone; I say... Look, sir, my problem is this: I see tradition has no longer significance, in the sense I have used the word tradition, of which we have been talking about.
10:32 Right? In that field we can dig and dig and dig and dig and become a little more better, a little more… etc., but that is totally unholy, uncreative; it is a terrible thing.
10:50 Now, I want to move away from there. Right? I want to move into a dimension where energy, creative flame of energy, is always abundant; always abundant, whether I am tired, whether I am bored — you follow? — it is always there for me to be involved in it.
11:33 Am I saying anything? Do you understand? And I am responsible to that; my mind is completely committed to that; and the responsibility and the flame of it is that.
12:00 And I see around me - except this company - traditional occupants; they are occupied with tradition.
12:14 Right? I’m not criticising, I’m just talking so that we’ll meet each other. And I say, along that way you will never bring about a different mind.
12:31 Right? Now, do we, as a group, who are going to be permanently at Brockwood, who are committed to Brockwood – right? – which is their home, their work, their life, everything there, do they see this?
13:07 Because there it’s a community with a school and an educational centre for a different kind… we’ll go into that later.
13:17 So are we, all of us, concerned with that?
13:42 Which doesn’t mean I withdraw to be concerned with that, or I go by myself for a walk in order to remain there – you follow? – all that kind… that’s all too stupid — but is my responsibility to that?
14:08 Not to the digging or widening the traditional movement.
14:16 There in the traditional movement, in that trench, I can be very clever; I can educate children to be much more intelligent, a little more honest, more this and more that, but it’s still within that area, which to me is an abomination.
14:44 Sorry. So, if this is clear to all of us, and I want to be quite sure this is clear, in the sense non-verbally, that the traditional energy is a wastage of energy.
15:16 Right? The other is not a wastage of energy. On the contrary, it is… you have more and more of a different dimension of energy.
15:28 I don’t know if I’m talking…
15:38 And here we are, committed to that, responsible to that, and then we must have leisure, time, space, quietness to find out how to translate that into action as teaching.
16:07 I don’t know if I am conveying anything, am I?
16:16 No? Right.
16:18 Q: Could you go a little more into leisure?
16:19 K: I’m going, I’m going. I bring you my son — sorry, that poor son has been dragged into this… (Laughter) I bring my son or daughter — sons are better, aren’t they?
16:28 There are too many ladies here (laughs) — and I want him to grow up in non-traditional lines.
16:40 Right? And I leave him under your care; and I make this very clear — non-traditional lines, non…
16:55 ‘Do this, don’t do that; this shall be, that will not be…’ — you know, all that - out.
17:07 I tell that to you. What will you do?
17:19 How will you educate that boy to have that perception, that reality in his mind and his heart, that dimension, so that he goes out with a flame, not with...
17:44 You follow?
17:52 Now, how can we bring this about?
18:07 And I think to understand this one must have this kind of discussion.
18:14 You follow? Which means leisure. Which means you can’t be like Mrs Simmons is — forgive me — morning till night, occupied, occupied - or Miss Pratt or any… — all day.
18:29 You must sit down, discuss, go into it, and say, ‘Look, what does it mean?’ What does it mean, sir?
18:44 Mr Joe, what does it mean to abandon tradition, in the sense we are talking and find… or come upon that dimension and discuss, inquire, see what we can do?
19:14 You understand? Joe Zorskie: I understand the question, yes. I have been thinking about it and I get… and my tendency is to answer that question with a… from, as we said the other day, part A or part B.
19:36 K: Yes, part A or part B.
19:38 JZ: And, you know, I think of actions and reasons…
19:43 K: Yes, sir.
19:44 JZ: … and I think of goals…
19:46 K: Yes, yes.
19:47 JZ: …and it’s all too easy to see that...
19:50 K: That’s all tradition.
19:52 JZ: Yes, it’s all too easy to see the problem.
19:54 K: Yes, that’s all traditional. Now, how will you – just take it as amusement, as a play, as a game — how will you come to that dimension?
20:12 Or having that dimension, what will you do, how will you educate my son?
20:23 Because when you are in that dimension, it has a – you follow, sir? — it’s like a flame.
20:40 Right? Because this is not a flame, A and B.
20:44 JZ: Are we operating in A and B now or…
20:47 K: I’m… that’s what I want to ask you. If you are operating in A or B — you know what B is, war and all the rest of it; A is being good, kind, generous, more polite, more…
21:01 That’s A and B. Now, if you abandon A and B — and have you abandoned it?
21:10 Sorry.
21:11 MS: The Christians tried to translate this in terms of, ‘When two or three are gathered together in my name, there will I be present,’ was the Christian doctrine.
21:20 K: Christian. And also the Hindus have it as sangham and all the rest of it.
21:25 MS: Well, that is very near to what we are getting at. They said, ‘In my name,’ which is of course limiting it, making it traditional.
21:32 K: Of course, of course; that’s the priests’ trick.
21:34 MS: But if two or three are gathered together, as you would put it, responsible to the other, then the other will be present.
21:43 K: Present, quite right. Responsible to the other – that’s all.
21:59 And do we gather in that?
22:08 And therefore to do that we must leisure. We must have time to sit down, put all our worries out there, and come together and say, ‘Look, what does it mean?
22:21 How do we…’ — you follow, sir? – ‘inquire into all that?’ I think the creative energy — shall I go into that?
22:33 – the creative energy comes from that dimension, not from the traditional dimension.
22:42 The traditional dimension can produce a picture. The picture is nothing, or the painter is nothing.
22:55 But we are dealing with human beings. You and I, we are human beings; we are dealing with each other. And can that flame of that dimension enter into that student, into that child?
23:18 You follow, sir? That’s all my… I want my son to have that flame when he leaves the school.
23:27 Q: But can it… I don’t feel it can enter passively. It can’t enter passively; it has to…
23:37 K: Ah, I… Look, you are responsible for my son; don’t say passively, positive...
23:46 How will you bring this flame into that child?
23:51 MS: And of course, one of the difficulties is when you are inquiring, as you were suggesting, in this leisure period, when you are inquiring into it, that if you are not careful you will be inquiring in the traditional way, and therefore it will be hard work, it won’t be leisure.
24:12 K: Of course. That’s why I said, have we abandoned the traditional?
24:20 Look, sir, there is a river to be crossed.
24:29 I am on this side of the river — we went into that the other day — and I have done everything on this side of the river, worshipped the gods on the other side, which are my projections; and all that, I have done it for centuries; and I see the hopelessness of it — you understand?
24:49 – because the… So I say, from that bank I must operate, not…
24:58 Q: From that other bank.
25:01 K: The other bank. Not how to get to the other bank — you follow, sir? — then we have traditional approach, practice.
25:12 You follow? The mind must find itself on the other bank.
25:37 I have abandoned every activity on this bank.
25:47 Right?
25:49 Q: The problem is that we could wish ourselves on the other bank.
25:55 K: Ah, ah… That’s all tricks; I am not interested.
25:57 Q: Yes.
25:58 K: I mean, that’s all childish. You make a picture of it, get caught in it, visions and exorcisms, you know, all that kind of stuff.
26:07 I mean, that’s all this side of the bank.
26:15 I want to find - not I — find oneself on that bank.
26:26 And I want my son to come to that bank. That is education, not all this stuff. Right? Now, how is that possible? What am I to do? Come on, sir.
27:01 What am I to do? You see, I am inquiring, you’re… Come on, put your guts into this.
27:12 Sorry! What am I to do? I have got a very nice baby, a very nice child; nice face, gentle, quiet, you know; children are lovely.
27:28 They grow up into such monsters. And they change from that, when they reach puberty, something happens to them – right? — they lose all their loveliness.
27:43 I want to prevent that.
27:48 TC: Well, if you were a student and I could see that you are operating in a fashion, A or B, and I could set up, you know, with my action, set up a barrier so that prevents you from… you know, that just stops you from operating in that mode.
28:20 K: You are stopping me then.
28:23 TC: I’m not stopping you in the sense that I’m making a rule or that I’m making a plan; I’m presenting myself in front of you.
28:36 K: Yes, but what happens then? I either copy you — right?
28:41 TC: Yes, but if I see you are copying me then I...
28:46 K: Again, block.
28:48 TC: Yes.
28:49 K: So I go round the other way and do something else and from a distance I worship you.
28:56 You are my example.
28:58 TC: But then you can block that worshipping.
29:04 K: See what happens. You are blocking, blocking, blocking, blocking; is that going to solve it? Is that going to bring in me that dimension?
29:23 You are still thinking in traditional terms: blocking; do this, don’t do that; this shall be, that shall not be; which is a block.
29:43 Right?
29:44 TC: Well, I think I mean it more in a sense that there is some… you have this mode of operation and I want you to clearly see what you are doing; to clearly see it, to see the way you are… what you are doing, and I set up, as opposed to… maybe the word barrier is not a good word; maybe a mirror; a mirror; when you go to move in this area I set up a mirror.
30:25 K: I understand.
30:27 TC: So that you can’t… so that in every way that you go to move from a feeling of A-ness and B-ness, that you see… that you continually see your own operation, and then...
30:41 K: Does the child, say, age of 9 or 10 or 11, do this? Can you do… can he look in that mirror, poor chap?
30:54 Sir, I want to find out a way of… totally different.
31:02 Sorry. You understand? Is there a way?
31:13 Not example; not authority; no imitation; and no resistance so that he blocks himself.
31:29 Now, those are all the traditional ways — multiply it, change it, modify it and enlarge it; that’s the traditional way; all that is implied; reward and punishment.
31:47 I abandon that. I abandon that way of looking at it.
32:04 I abandon it because I see it – you follow? — it has no value. Now what shall I do? I want this boy to have that dimension so that he’ll never come in this field.
32:21 Q: Sir, every time a problem arises why not discuss it with that child?
32:29 K: Oh, there is… Ah, that’s a problem. I don’t want him to have a problem.
32:38 Q: A child is very sensitive. When I am out with the child in nature, I tell it… I mean, point out to…
32:51 K: I understand that. But I don’t want him… from childhood till he dies, no problems. Right?
33:01 Q: But we’re starting in a situation where the child has problems; isn’t that the situation you presented?
33:08 K: Sir, look, sir, my… No, you are… I am not talking of the child!
33:23 The child has problems when he comes to us. He is conditioned. When I use the word conditioned, it includes all that. And he grows up into that, gets less problems — you follow? — or more problems, and in that river he is caught for the rest of his life.
33:46 Now, he comes to me and I don’t want him…
33:55 my responsibility is to that, and I say in that there is no problem — sex, drink, no problem — you understand, sir? — because that has tremendous vitality, intelligence; it has got a flame and that flame burns out everything.
34:22 And he comes with problems.
34:30 Now, what shall I do?
34:42 When he leaves, his mind can never create a problem, about anything.
34:54 Right? That’s the way to live. Right, sir? Not as an idea. If I am responsible to that dimension, my responsibility translates itself to see that boy has never a problem.
35:17 Right? Now, what shall I do?
35:26 What is my… how can I teach him this?
35:35 You understand? How can I convey this to him?
35:38 BJ: By being totally responsible to this other we were talking about.
35:45 K: I am.
35:48 BJ: The question is, am I?
35:53 K: No. Look, sir, this is our concern. I want to communicate in those talks in the tent, I want to communicate something. Very few people get it, but they talk endlessly and go on.
36:11 It’s my responsibility, not only to that but also to convey it to you.
36:22 It’s a responsibility there and there.
36:27 BJ: Right.
36:30 K: But you are grown up; you come there to listen; so there is a response from you; but the child doesn’t have a response.
36:46 BJ: It has a different kind of mind.
36:49 K: I am talking of that mind. He hasn’t got that mind. He won’t even listen to you. He will say, ‘Yes, sir, no, sir,’ but he is caught in the tradition. Right? Now, what am I to do? That’s the question.
37:05 Q: This has to be a non-verbal…
37:07 K: No, don’t translate it. Look at the problem. What am I to do? I have got this boy or the girl, conditioned, wants to go the pub, beer, drink, smoke, all the rest of it — what am I to do?
37:36 If I say Brockwood is… it can’t happen, these things, in Brockwood, I am back here.
37:43 Right? So what shall I do?
38:01 What does your brain say, sir?
38:03 JZ: I am thinking, are you different from the child? I’m looking at the question: are you different from the child?
38:14 K: Of course you are. You are responsible to that. You have washed away this bank; you are not operating on this bank; only there.
38:31 And the poor child hasn’t got that bank or this bank. He is not aware of either, except his own little demands and all the rest of it.
38:41 So how will you deal with this?
38:48 He wants to become an engineer because his father is a beastly little engineer — you follow, sir? — and it goes on and on and on.
38:58 What will you do?
39:04 TC: Without at all feeling like being an example or trying to look for opportunities to talk or have relationships, I still want to have as much time together with this child or the children, which means I give a lot of opportunity to that.
39:39 K: Are you saying, Ted, that you being there, by your coming into contact with the child, with the student, the mere companionship...
40:08 TC: Yes.
40:09 K: ...the mere regard, looking at each other; the mere sense of nearness — not physical, you understand, nearness — are you saying that is a primary requisite, that is a requisite?
40:32 TC: I say that I want that companionship...
40:33 K: Wait. Maybe. Go into it. Just go into it.
40:43 That is necessary.
40:44 TC: Yes, that’s what I feel.
40:48 K: You are not traditional. Please, that is absolutely important in this. You don’t function on this bank at all.
41:04 And you are there on a different… on the opposite bank — not opposite — a different bank, at a different dimension.
41:15 This thing is burning in you. And the student, boy, comes to you. That’s one of the necessary things, obviously.
41:32 Is that traditional?
41:36 TC: No, it isn’t to me; it just seems like…
41:43 K: Ah, wait. I am questioning it. You follow, sir? I want to find out if your mind, when you say it is necessary, is it functioning along traditional lines?
42:00 I don’t know…
42:02 TC: Yes, I know what you are asking.
42:04 K: I’m not insulting you, sir.
42:05 TC: No, no, I know what you’re asking, yes.
42:13 K: All right, let’s take that: you are there, and nearness, companionship.
42:38 What does that mean?
42:46 What takes place between the student and you? You understand? You are there; that flame burning; not just waking up occasionally; it is there.
43:00 Sorry, I get so… It is there, you are there; your mind is there, your brain is there.
43:11 And companionship — what takes place there?
43:27 Q: The child feels more security, not…
43:36 K: Ah, the child — please, just listen — the child has come to you, insecure, conditioned, wanting so many things, wanting your love, wanting your companionship, wanting security; a dozen things he wants.
43:57 I am asking, what takes place between the man who lives and functions on that dimension and the child?
44:10 What happens? Come on, Mr Joe.
44:14 JZ: You can speak to the flame in the child. It is not as though the flame is completely lacking.
44:28 K: I don’t know. Maybe.
44:31 JZ: Maybe.
44:32 Q: Is not a communication established?
44:37 K: I am asking what takes place.
44:42 TC: You don’t mean the physical action.
44:46 K: I am near you, sitting next to you, and you are living at that dimension -right? – and what happens between us?
45:01 What happens between us now? We are fairly companionable, fairly decent people, fairly… not smelly, not all the rest of it.
45:13 JZ: Yes, what’s happening here?
45:14 TC: There is no way that we get you back to the other side of the river.
45:18 K: What?
45:19 TC: There is no way the relationship together gets back to the...
45:24 K: Ted…
45:25 DS: There’s a bond.
45:28 K: Ah! I won’t use any of those words. I am asking: there is Ted and me.
45:40 If I say I am on that dimension — excuse me, I am not trying to boss — this person is living at that dimension and is consumed by it.
45:50 What happens between Ted and me now?
46:00 What is going on now between us?
46:02 Q: There is just energy.
46:04 K: Ah! You are always giving ready answers! God darn it! Sorry, I didn’t mean it, sir.
46:24 What is taking place now, Ted?
46:37 Are you functioning in traditional lines now? Come on, sir.
46:48 TC: Well, there is awareness and there is attention.
46:59 K: Are you functioning — you see? — are you thinking, operating in terms of what to do?
47:17 We talked about companionship. Right? In that companionship between you and me now, are you thinking of what to do?
47:29 TC: Between us?
47:34 K: Yes, now. Or what should be, what should not be? Are you thinking in those terms?
47:42 TC: No.
47:43 K: No. Therefore what is taking place?
47:45 MS: He’s at the other side of the river too.
47:50 K: Sir, what is taking place?
47:53 TC: Nothing.
47:56 K: Which means what?
47:58 TC: Which means there’s no motive for...
48:00 K: Yes. You refuse to answer this. What is taking place between us now?
48:11 BJ: Relationship.
48:13 K: Oh, no! Don’t… Sir… Relationship…
48:19 Q: A different dimension is operating.
48:25 MZ: Inquiry.
48:28 TC: Sir, between you and I right now, if I am not entirely understanding something that’s going on in your speaking, then all I can do is just receive it.
48:43 (Pause) K: Sir, have you ever been in a wood where there is absolute silence?
49:02 Absolute in the sense, there is a little bit cicadas and a little bit growling, a little bit noise and all the rest, but a sense of tremendous silence?
49:13 Q: I remember one time.
49:16 K: You have been there, haven’t you?
49:23 Now, you are at that dimension, and I am your companion.
49:35 What has taken place in me?
49:45 I am aware of an extraordinary sense of something which I have not been able to touch.
49:52 Right? Right? I am aware of something; I can’t put it into words, I can’t put it into description; I am aware of something extraordinary.
50:04 Right?
50:05 TC: Right.
50:08 K: Right?
50:10 Q: Right.
50:13 K: Now, in that state I have no problems — right?
50:20 — I am not conditioned, I am not… I don’t say, ‘Oh my God, my wife is running off with somebody,’ or, ‘I want to sleep with her’ — nothing of that happens; I am just in that.
50:35 Now, why does that take place?
50:47 TC: Well, it’s taking place and I am with someone where the other action, the other activities don’t happen.
51:09 K: Yes. That means what? We are grown up. We are both observing something of that dimension. We are both aware of something of that dimension. So it means we both are of there, both have a feeling of that. That’s fairly simply because we have worked at this for the last four days, three days, five days, or several days, or several months.
51:43 But you have got a child, a student; how will you create this thing?
51:54 You follow? It’s not a relationship, it is not a companionship, it is not a friendliness, it is not my affection to you or my love for you, or my wanting to help.
52:08 It’s none of that. All that’s washed out. I don’t know… Isn’t it? All that’s washed out.
52:21 Now, how will you bring that student to that?
52:26 TC: It is the only thing that...
52:28 K: Ah! How will you… What… You understand, sir? Somebody understands what I am talking about? This takes place between two people. Right? Right? Now, you are asking totally the wrong question.
52:57 Look, sir, Mr Joe, you and I have lived for the last four months, three months or two months at Brockwood; we have discussed this thing in different ways.
53:13 You more or less have become very sensitive to this. You have thought about it, you have broken down your own knowledge, your own peculiar training, your own physicist outlook.
53:27 You have moved. You wouldn’t have listened to this at the beginning, you’d say, ‘What rot are you talking about?’ Now you are willing to listen and you are unwilling even to answer; before you would.
53:54 And we are talking about that and you also see logically, intellectually, the traditional A and B has no value anymore, so you have already moved.
54:11 Right? You no longer operate in this field, A and B field. You may… — you follow? — but you are out of that category.
54:25 Right? So you are now… you have opened the door to something.
54:33 Right? Put it that way. And you and I meet. There is a companionship which has no motive, which has no sense of, ‘Oh my Lord, he is my great friend, my only friend; I must be with him.’ None of that exists.
55:00 Right?
55:01 JZ: Right.
55:02 K: So you have already observed, or come to that dimension. For the moment - for the moment, that’s good enough. Now, I am the child, I am the student now; how will you bring this… bring me to that?
55:21 You have understood? When you say…
55:35 I mustn’t… I’ll answer you. I mustn’t talk any more. You discuss this.
55:40 TC: If there’s something the child doesn’t know then the only… he has to be brought to where he doesn’t know anything in the way that he thinks that he knows.
55:54 How else can you bring him to something else? He thinks he knows.
55:56 K: Sir, he thinks he knows; he wants... all the rest. There is that child; take him as he is, not as you want him to be. He is that, what he is - the product of the parents who have quarrelled; all that is deposited in the poor child.
56:19 And you are on that bank and you want him to come to that bank, help him.
56:28 I don’t… use any word. What…
56:31 TC: We can do what you are doing right now.
56:36 K: Our thing is different, sir, because we are mature people, so-called mature people; we have talked a great deal about all this, we have read, we have discussed, we have attended talks, this and that, so we are more or less open, but the child is not, the student is not.
56:58 And — listen to this — he goes home, comes back to you, probably he is there for three years and gone, thrown to the dogs, and you have a very short period in which to...
57:17 TC: In which to let him make his own traps.
57:22 K: Ah! He will grow more problems for him.
57:28 TC: But you have to bring him to nothing before he knows there’s something else.
57:32 K: So again you are talking in terms of tradition.
57:39 TC: I don’t know what tradition is.
57:40 K: I told you. To bring him to something, to change him, to...
57:49 TC: No, I don’t believe there is a change; I don’t believe there is anything that he hasn’t already got. I am not giving him anything. I could be taking something, if I want him to see through some conditioning, but I can’t give him anything. You know, he’s alive like I’m alive.
58:08 K: No, no, of course, sir. What can you do within three years?
58:20 Or if he comes to you youngish enough, 12, and he leaves you at 18; in six years, what…
58:30 Life is so short — you understand, sir? — before he is caught in the trap.
58:51 TC: Well, I see something very strongly and I’d like you to...
59:05 K: Punch it. (Laughs) TC: Yes. (Laughter) K: A boxer!
59:15 TC: Yes. Being on the other shore, in this example...
59:25 K: That’s a simile.
59:28 TC: Simile, right. I feel very strongly that there is all of the interactions, etc., etc., but that I actually do nothing in this most important… well, in any of the ways that the child or that regular traditions call for, or that any situation suggests.
1:00:11 I act but not with the aim or the...
1:00:17 K: Yes, yes, I understood. I understand that, but is that all? Is that going to transform that kid’s mind, blast the heavy tradition?
1:00:36 TC: It seems like an extreme blast, and this is probably what…
1:00:44 And I feel that strongly but I...
1:00:46 K: Look, Ted, we have got two problems. The child comes conditioned, the student, and is it possible — wait, listen to it — is it possible to produce children who will never be conditioned?
1:01:23 You understand my question? We have got these two problems, you understand: the student who is conditioned and is there a way or is there some quality, something, that the mind is never conditioned?
1:01:42 TC: Yes. Now, the mind, not acting in the conditioned way and not trying to change them, is what I was saying to me is a...
1:01:50 K: Ah, it’s the same thing; same thing I am saying. Do you understand? Are we talking of the same thing?
1:02:03 TC: Looks like it.
1:02:11 (Pause) Q: That will confuse; it will cause confusion.
1:02:20 K: To whom?
1:02:21 Q: To the child.
1:02:22 K: I am not thinking of the child. You are thinking of him, I am not thinking about the child.
1:02:29 Q: Okay.
1:02:30 K: The child, we know what he is. I am trying to find out: is there some catalyst that will shatter all his conditioning?
1:02:57 Not three years, but as he comes into your room it is broken.
1:03:08 You follow? That is non-traditional. You have got it?
1:03:21 Now, I am concerned with that, not how to uncondition, take time — that is too long.
1:03:32 The moment he comes near Brockwood, near the house, near the room, the thing is broken.
1:03:48 And it’s my responsibility to create that thing that says… this is… create that flame, that in that flame his conditioning is burnt out instantly.
1:04:02 I don’t know if you...
1:04:09 Am I talking cuckoodom? If I deny tradition — you understand, sir? — this must happen. You follow what I am saying? Doris Pratt: Which means I must see traditionalism with crystal clarity.
1:04:36 K: No, no, that’s understood; not begin all over again. I am not interested in your seeing! You see, you are again going back to the damn blasted tradition: ‘I must see clearly.’ That’s a good point to take up: I come into your room, I come near you, at Brockwood.
1:05:15 TC: As a student, conditioned, you mean?
1:05:16 K: Conditioned. I come near you and your responsibility is non-traditional, non-operational in the traditional field — I must see clearly this... — your responsibility is, living in that dimension, to blast my conditioning.
1:05:45 Not over a period — the moment I come near you.
1:05:55 You understand, sir? I think… No, I won’t say what I think. You understand?
1:06:02 Q: Immediately.
1:06:03 K: As I come in to you this something takes place.
1:06:06 TC: And every time.
1:06:07 MZ: His conditioning is gone? His conditioning is destroyed?
1:06:10 K: Something has broken in me that says, I’m… it’s all…
1:06:17 Something happens to me.
1:06:18 Q: Something happens...
1:06:20 K: No, no, you are making it literal.
1:06:31 (Pause) Has this happened to you?
1:06:44 Coming into this room, sitting, talking like this, you and I, has your conditioning broken?
1:06:54 You may look… You understand what I mean?
1:06:57 TC: Yes.
1:07:00 K: Has it?
1:07:05 TC: I think it has.
1:07:11 K: If that can happen, why can’t it happen there?
1:07:15 Q: It can happen there if what’s happening in this room happens at Brockwood; if it happens in every example...
1:07:28 K: It is your responsibility!
1:07:29 Q: Then it will happen.
1:07:31 K: Ah! It’s your responsibility.
1:07:38 TC: The difference is that we are not children.
1:07:49 K: We have been through all that. Sir, you create the atmosphere, don’t you?
1:07:57 JZ: We can do it but I think I have to learn… at least I have to learn how to do it with a certain gentleness too.
1:08:06 K: Don’t go back to this.
1:08:14 You are already stipulating what you should do.
1:08:34 Sir, look, Ted said companionship. Right? Here we are sitting together; we are companions. I am not opposed to you, you are not opposed to me; we are sitting together talking about this. And the very atmosphere, the very essence of this breaks down other things which are not essence.
1:08:58 You follow?
1:09:00 BJ: But, sir, are the flames here?
1:09:09 K: Flames?
1:09:12 BJ: You suggest that here we have broken our conditioning but to do that there must be a flame.
1:09:20 K: No, no. No. Sir, look. First of all we said we have always been functioning in the field of A and B.
1:09:37 BJ: Yes.
1:09:39 K: And that will not bring about a new mind, a new burning mind, a mind that is really, you know, excellent in the highest degree.
1:09:58 And so I say, ‘All right,’ I abandon that. I don’t even want to smell it, touch it, look at it; it is finished, because it hasn’t done a thing in the world - the world being human beings.
1:10:18 And I have operated, this mind has operated on this bank, on this side of the bank.
1:10:25 And I am saying, if it operates from that side of the bank, the thing is over.
1:10:36 And we have always said, ‘How am I to cross the river?’ which is traditional — carried by a boatman, by a guru, by a saviour, by a Christ, by somebody or other to take me over there.
1:10:51 That’s utterly traditional and stupid. I abandon that. In the very abandonment of it I am there.
1:11:00 Total abandonment of it.
1:11:11 And then I come to Mr Jenkins and say, ‘My friend, you are part of this Brockwood community affair, come over to this bank.
1:11:29 Don’t ask me how. The ‘how’ is back again in the tradition.’ Right? ‘Don’t ask me what you are to do; if you do you are back again.’ That’s why, before I ask you to come to the other bank I say: have you dropped this tradition altogether?
1:11:59 If you have not then you are not on that bank. I can discuss this with you, I can talk, have a dialogue, a series of discussions and so on and on and on for perhaps two or three months till you see it, because I want you to move out of your tradition.
1:12:22 My passion is that. Right? And I bring my son to you. He has watched me and my wife quarrel, hit each other, quarrel, disgusting, all that stupid thing that goes on in a family.
1:12:44 And there he comes, he is conditioned. And it’s your responsibility, being on that bank, to break this conditioning.
1:13:01 Not over a period; break it instantly so that he says, ‘Yes, I know now. I understand. I have a feeling I want to push it all out.’ BJ: What you are saying, sir, is being on that bank it’s automatically broken.
1:13:19 My being on that bank…
1:13:20 K: Of course. The moment you deny the whole of this traditional bank there is nothing more.
1:13:26 BJ: And he feels that automatically.
1:13:30 K: Ah, not automatically. There is nothing automatic. I come to you conditioned as a boy, and you are living there on that side, and you are different, in you there is this thing burning.
1:13:53 I come and something happens to me. So — I am talking — is this happening between us?
1:14:27 If it is not, don’t say, ‘Why doesn’t it happen?’ — because it might be laziness, it might be you don’t want it, you like this and you like that, you like sex a little more, this, all that — not that I’m objecting to sex and all that.
1:14:47 Oh, God! And I am saying, why doesn’t it happen to you? Is it my fault, because I am not on that bank, or I want to convert you so passionately to that bank therefore my passion is pushing you, not your own burst?
1:15:14 You understand, sir?
1:15:22 (Pause) I don’t care. All that I want is you, as a group of teachers committed to this, to transform my son. I don’t care what you do.
1:15:44 Right? Naturally I don’t want you to beat him up.
1:15:54 But having stated all this, it is your responsibility, your creative movement.
1:16:02 That is real creation, not this bloody painting!
1:16:10 Sorry. (Pause) Sir, I have got two things: to uncondition the mind and to see if a child can be produced who is incapable of being conditioned.
1:16:51 You understand, sir?
1:16:59 (Pause) I think it is possible to have a child who is not conditioned, born to a family in an area where this bank predominates.
1:17:29 You follow what I am talking? This bank, where this predominates.
1:17:33 TC: The child would not be conditioned?
1:17:47 MZ: You mean, if the parents had the sense of the other bank?
1:17:52 K: Have this real, deep sense of the otherness — you understand, the otherness?
1:18:00 — I think things happen differently.
1:18:04 TC: Have you seen this happen?
1:18:09 K: I think I have.
1:18:15 TC: I mean with children.
1:18:18 K: I think I have; with a child anyhow.
1:18:30 BJ: Can he come to Brockwood? (Laughter) K: He is there, poor chap! (Laughs) Ah, that’s a different thing.
1:18:44 You see, sir?
1:18:52 DS: Is it a different thing?
1:18:58 K: No, look, I am talking about K when he was a boy.
1:19:05 BJ: Oh. (Laughs) We’re wondering…
1:19:07 K: Must I dot the i’s and cross the t’s?
1:19:14 It is not really. You see, we don’t think in these terms, we don’t feel in these terms.
1:19:27 DS: But, Krishnaji, weren’t you educated from A and B and disregarded it totally?
1:19:38 K: It never entered my...
1:19:40 DS: Exactly. But you had no companion.
1:19:43 K: No.
1:19:44 MZ: It’s not an educational process.
1:19:47 DS: It’s not an educational process at all.
1:19:51 K: Therefore what takes place? If you say it is not an educational process at all, and the child is with you, what will you do?
1:20:07 Not teach him geometry and physics?
1:20:12 DS: That has to be done too.
1:20:13 K: Therefore what will you do? If you say it is not an educational, which means communicable, process — education is a form of… — what will you do?
1:20:30 You haven’t applied your mind! What will you do?
1:20:44 Sorry, I am not…
1:20:52 You understand? It has happened here. You follow?
1:20:58 MZ: But it happened, apparently, from what you’ve described...
1:21:00 DS: …despite.
1:21:01 MZ: Exactly, despite everything…
1:21:03 K: Obviously.
1:21:04 MZ: …all the A and B being showered on you.
1:21:08 DS: (Inaudible) …all else.
1:21:09 K: Yes, absolutely. It happened… It is despite of your conditioning this has happened to you this morning.
1:21:21 Right?
1:21:22 DS: Yes, but the flame burns within you.
1:21:25 MZ: Yes. It’s nothing that was done from the outside that brought this about.
1:21:31 K: No, I... But…
1:21:33 TC: You are talking about two different things.
1:21:36 K: We are talking of two different things, that’s what…
1:21:38 DS: Well, are we?
1:21:39 K: Leave K for the moment aside.
1:21:41 DS: Well, why should we?
1:21:42 K: All right, don’t leave K aside; we’ll take him out, poor chap!
1:21:52 I will go into this a little bit; you will see it. There was K born to a very poor, orthodox, religious family, Brahmin, tremendously traditional, temple-going, having thirteen or twelve children, in spite of the temples (laughs), poor and malaria-ridden.
1:22:23 And he grew there. Probably he was so utterly vacant — you understand? You understand, sir? — that nothing went in, nothing came out. You follow?
1:22:32 Q: To this day.
1:22:34 DP: To this day. Nothing went in and nothing came out, to this day, right up to now.
1:22:53 K: Yes, sir.
1:22:54 DS: But I have seen a photograph that denies that.
1:22:59 K: No, no, no, I’m…
1:23:02 DS: In the face is the other bank.
1:23:06 K: Yes, because nothing entered.
1:23:09 DS: Yes, but that is a supreme, unique... (inaudible) Q: Yes, this… (inaudible) Q: How can this… (inaudible) K: Ah, I’m off. That’s why I didn’t want… I don’t want to enter into the uniqueness of the blasted child.
1:23:18 DS: But you are asking us to do that, Krishnaji.
1:23:19 DP: You are asking us to do that.
1:23:22 MZ: Somebody, Brian, I think, asked has this ever been done.
1:23:29 And you said one child, and this one child doesn’t seem to be an example...
1:23:33 K: No, you are missing my point. You are missing my point. You see, there is the theosophical… You are interested in this?
1:23:43 Q: Yes.
1:23:44 Q: Very.
1:23:45 BJ: I think we should follow it through, sir.
1:23:46 K: There is the theosophical concept which says…
1:23:53 Q: Ladder; climb the ladder.
1:23:57 K: No, no, no; just a minute, no, no. The theosophical concept says that there is a great world teacher who incarnates into the physical world when the world is rotten (laughs).
1:24:18 They put it differently - when the world is immoral, (inaudible).
1:24:25 And that teacher has given orders to his disciples to look for a body (laughs) — sorry to laugh — who will be used.
1:24:43 Wait, wait, don’t laugh at it, it is… Sir, you miss… if you laugh at it you won’t get the content of it.
1:24:53 They chose another boy because it is the tradition in India and in the Tibetan scriptures that where there is corruption at its highest then the world demands that teacher to express himself.
1:25:20 And these people were looking for a boy to be the vessel.
1:25:27 They had chosen a boy and the boy was being trained, and another boy called K came along and they said, ‘My God, that’s the boy, not that boy.’ So they dropped him and picked up that boy.
1:25:40 And they formed - all the rest of it — an organization round him, tremendous land and all that. He went on like that till 1928; then he was thirty two.
1:25:54 Nothing came in, nothing went out. Right? Are you following this? And the idea there is, the body, the mind or the brain of this boy was kept untouched for the teacher to operate.
1:26:21 That was the idea. Sir, this is tradition, this goes to very old tradition, in the Jewish tradition, in the Hindu tradition; it doesn’t exist in the Western tradition.
1:26:34 In the Eastern tradition it is tremendously old, this. This is nothing… only they translate it in the peculiar ways of the Western world, and so on.
1:26:45 Q: You mean it was kept untouched?
1:26:50 K: Untouched.
1:26:51 DS: The brain.
1:26:52 TC: You mean that the people who were bringing this boy up did not attempt to influence the boy?
1:26:58 K: Oh yes, they did.
1:26:59 TC: Oh, they did. He was not untouched because people didn’t want to touch him.
1:27:03 K: They were trying to influence him, they were trying to tell him what to do, they told him… kept him doing this, but…
1:27:10 TC: He remained untouched.
1:27:11 K: Untouched.
1:27:12 Q: So he remained untouched but until 32, he put on the garb and the cloak and the behaviour contradicted the vacant state — why?
1:27:18 K: Wait, sir. I am coming to that. The theory is: that teacher protected the body.
1:27:35 Please, laugh at it all, what you…
1:27:39 Q: You mean that teacher.
1:27:40 K: That teacher. As he was going to use this instrument, had to be kept clean, so he protected it.
1:27:52 That’s one idea. The other idea is: whole — you know, reincarnation and all that — many, many lives have been gone on and at the right moment that — not teacher, that sense of greatness operated and kept it intact.
1:28:15 You can do what you like. I don’t know why I am telling you all this.
1:28:20 MZ: Well, yes, why are you, Krishnaji? That’s a relevant question.
1:28:24 K: Why am I telling you?
1:28:25 MZ: Yes.
1:28:26 K: Because he asked me, or somebody asked me here, why is it that K’s brain was not conditioned.
1:28:36 Right? And previous to that I said it is possible to bring about such a mind, such a child, if the parents live at that altitude.
1:28:53 You follow?
1:28:54 TC: Was there such a person in your life?
1:28:59 K: No.
1:29:00 MZ: Therefore what is the parallel?
1:29:01 DS: I don’t see it, Krishnaji. I don’t see what you are saying. You’re saying there was no companion, that you kept yourself clean or vacant in order...
1:29:20 K: No, I didn’t keep… The brain was vacant.
1:29:22 MZ: Then what have the parents got to do with it, since they had nothing to do with… (inaudible) K: They had nothing to do with it, poor parents.
1:29:30 DS: Well, what are we, as teachers at Brockwood?
1:29:31 K: What are you to do?
1:29:32 Q: You are trying to draw a parallel, aren’t you, sir?
1:29:36 K: No, sir. We are talking at two cross-purposes. I said, is it possible to enter into your community, into your presence, and because of your presence the thing withers away?
1:29:59 Do you remember? I said that. Because of your presence, of your atmosphere, of your sense of tremendous living there.
1:30:13 And the other was: can there be a child who is never conditioned?
1:30:22 You follow? I put that. That may be a stupid question, irrelevant, unnecessary question. I was going about it myself because I have been thinking a great deal about this, because if there is only one man that does it then it is a hopeless business.
1:30:40 You follow?
1:30:41 MZ: Also if it can only be done with a child who has never been touched - because we will never, probably, ever see such a child.
1:30:51 K: Is it not possible it, at Brockwood — you follow? — having your presence, your feeling, a child there who grows up completely open?
1:31:06 You understand? That’s all.
1:31:16 So we have gone off, a little bit off.
1:31:19 TC: Does that mean we would have to work with children that are very young?
1:31:24 DP: No, you jolly well have to produce them.
1:31:29 K: (Laughs) They are only too willing!
1:31:32 DP: Of course.
1:31:34 K: No, no…
1:31:36 DP: Of course.
1:31:37 K: No, no, don’t… Miss Pratt, don’t say ‘of course’ or not ‘of course’. I just brought this out because the presence is so important. You understand, sir, what I mean by presence? This sense of being on the other shore; sense of otherness; sense of something immense, that shore and all that.
1:32:02 If that is there, that very thing will create.
1:32:06 TC: Did you always have that sense?
1:32:10 K: Probably.
1:32:12 Q: What happened at the age of 32?
1:32:17 K: What happened at the age of 32? Probably he woke up. Till then he was more or less, you know, fooling around.
1:32:31 BJ: Sir, perhaps… I feel that what might come out of what we have been saying is that, if there is that presence at Brockwood, that being that presence...
1:32:41 K: Here - you are that.
1:32:42 BJ: Right. There being that presence, perhaps if there is such a child in the world, another such child, that child will be drawn to the school.
1:32:51 K: Maybe or… No, don’t… There may be… something strange will take place. Life is so strange, sir. Why should you be sitting there and I here, talking to you? It’s so strange.
1:33:06 Q: (Inaudible) K: Isn’t it?
1:33:09 Q: Yes, yes.
1:33:11 K: So, anything can happen. But you as a group must have this; then you will… anything can happen in that.
1:33:22 TC: Can it happen within a traditional framework? Because the school itself is a traditional framework. The Brockwood school is a framework.
1:33:29 K: Ah, no, no. No, no, I am not talking of the school. The group; out of that you say the school is a form of education.
1:33:39 TC: Traditional.
1:33:40 K: Of course. I have got to learn mathematics, physics, geometry, otherwise the brain remains uncultivated; they will become stupid entities.
1:33:50 DP: But did your brain have to do that?
1:33:56 K: No.
1:33:57 DP: So it’s not necessary.
1:34:00 K: I am good at reading novels! (Laughter) DP: So education as we know it is not necessary.
1:34:04 K: But you see, don’t take me as… For the… Look, I am talking about having a group of people who are completely dedicated, completely responsible, completely with that flame; strange miracles happen.
1:34:27 Why should you all be sitting here with a chap who was born in a rotten little town, filthy little town?
1:34:35 How does it happen?
1:34:43 This is a miracle. Right? And if you feel that you will have something marvellous happen there.
1:34:59 (Pause) And as long as I am going to be here, and Brockwood, I am going to keep on at this.
1:35:17 Sorry. So that we have leisure to sit down and talk, go into this.
1:35:27 And you must come with leisure, [not] with a mind that says, ‘My God, I have left that dish boiling, I must rush out’ — you follow? – or, ‘I must answer that letter.’ You must come together having leisure.
1:35:45 Right, sir? You must come without any strain; the mind not strained, pushed around, quiet.
1:36:02 Qué hora che?
1:36:06 Q: Twenty to one.
1:36:09 K: When do we meet again?
1:36:14 JZ: Tomorrow?
1:36:15 K: I have got to talk tomorrow morning.
1:36:22 Sir, I can meet tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow, better be…
1:36:28 Q: Yes.
1:36:29 K: Day after tomorrow. (Pause in recoding) TC: …no matter how we are, no matter what bank we are on, we are still operating with…
1:36:39 we have to operate within a certain amount of tradition…
1:36:42 K: Of course, sir. I said…
1:36:44 TC: We are clinging to it. We’re clinging.
1:36:46 K: But… No, I must leave the tradition.
1:36:48 DS: But you still have to have a roof over your head, you still must have food.
1:36:50 K: Of course. I must… No, no, no.
1:36:53 DS: You don’t have to?
1:36:54 K: No. I must leave the bank of tradition, then I will have a roof or no roof, I will sing or not sing, I will educate in different...
1:37:10 But the thing is, I must move to that bank. That is the principal thing. Then I will educate my son totally differently; the very teaching of algebra will be the...
1:37:25 DS: Why do you need algebra then?
1:37:28 K: Because it helps my mind.
1:37:31 DS: It didn’t help mine.
1:37:34 DP: Some minds may want it.
1:37:36 K: No. Your mind may not want it. Somebody else’s may want...
1:37:42 TC: If you are going to build a bridge you need it.
1:37:45 K: Of course.
1:37:46 DP: Somebody wants a sculpture.
1:37:47 K: Somebody wants to write.
1:37:49 DS: I don’t know, really.
1:37:53 TC: No, but this want is for the most part operating out of conditioning.
1:38:02 K: Yes, absolutely, that’s just it. After all…
1:38:06 DS: I mean, it’s still hanging onto tradition, to my mind; that’s all.
1:38:11 K: No, my lady.
1:38:13 Q: No, but it’s just pure function. One has to produce people who are...
1:38:19 DS: You will find how to function without that.
1:38:22 K: All right, do it!
1:38:23 DS: What are we doing but that?
1:38:25 K: Are we?
1:38:26 DS: Of course we are!
1:38:27 K: Ah, don’t… please, don’t let’s get excitable. Are we? I’m not saying you are or you are not. Are we? Have we left this bank of tradition?
1:38:35 DS: Would we have started it if we hadn’t?
1:38:37 K: My darling… Sorry, sir (laughs). I am saying, have we...
1:38:45 DS: I am not defensive either; I am stating facts.
1:38:48 K: I am asking you, have we — I am not saying we are doing it or not doing it. My insistence is: have we left the bank?
1:39:01 I don’t say you have or you have not. If you have left it you are on that other thing.
1:39:14 If that other thing operates you will use any tool.
1:39:21 Not any - not cannons, but you’ll use the algebra, whatever you teach, as a means to convey the other.
1:39:35 Right, sir?
1:39:36 DS: I don’t see how you do it.
1:39:38 K: That’s our creative thing.
1:39:41 DS: I don’t see how algebra can point to something that is totally in another world.
1:39:48 DP: It’s the communication of teaching algebra that does it.
1:39:54 K: I am not talking of… I am consumed with the otherness, burning with it, and I have got a child.
1:40:09 He must be able to read, he must be able to write.
1:40:15 DS: He’ll find out from his interest in what he has to say; same as you did.
1:40:22 K: I have got this child, conditioned — you understand? — he must… Don’t take me; please, darling, don’t take me — relax and go to the theatre…
1:40:37 (Laughter) He has to have… All right, put it round the other way.
1:40:50 How am I, living on that bank, to help… create in him that something which will help him to write — you follow? — a flame in himself?
1:41:08 You understand? How is this to take place?
1:41:20 I think we are rather getting confused about this. If you say no child at Brockwood needs to learn anything – right?
1:41:34 — no mathematics, nothing, but be in the presence of us, would that bring the flame in that child?
1:41:56 Be with us; don’t do anything, don’t learn, don’t read, nothing.
1:42:04 BJ: They might as well go asleep, I feel.
1:42:10 DS: I don’t know.
1:42:13 K: Would I, as a parent, send my child to you?
1:42:20 DS: Probably not.
1:42:21 K: Certainly not.
1:42:23 DS: But then parents are not interested in something that’s holy.
1:42:28 K: Wait, wait. Take yourself. You are the group. You have got that presence, that otherness; you are boiling with it, and there it is at Brockwood.
1:42:41 And I have a son. I send him to you, knowing I want him to have that presence, that thing.
1:42:55 Right? What? Would any sane man, sane parent, send him to you, facing the world as it is?
1:43:11 They wouldn’t. But having sent, you have to create this thing in him; this thing boil in him.
1:43:27 If that boils then he can… out of himself, out of his eyes, ears, the very thing he puts his hands to will blossom.
1:43:38 You understand what I am saying?
1:43:51 You see, can you — put it round the other way — can you create a genius?
1:44:02 Which is the same thing - genius not in the stupid tradition, writing a marvellous poem and drinking himself to death.
1:44:09 I don’t call that creativeness. Picasso may be a marvellous painter but he has a rotten life. You follow? I am not talking of all those people who are so-called creative and considered genius. I don’t consider them genius at all. They just have a certain gift and run that talent to death; the rest is rotten.
1:44:32 Sorry. Now, can you create in your presence, with that thing, a genius?
1:44:41 Genius being: having that flame, and whatever he touches, whether it is mathematics, painting, it will be of that.
1:44:56 Which means his whole life is that and this is merely a gesture. You follow what I am saying? Are you following this?
1:45:07 BJ: Sir, what is merely a gesture? I don’t follow you.
1:45:12 K: Painting, writing, that’s a gesture.
1:45:16 BJ: From him?
1:45:18 K: Yes. He doesn’t care whether he dies, doesn’t…
1:45:25 BJ: Oh, I see.
1:45:28 K: I am only asking - I am not asking — if the traditional bank is left, inwardly, totally, then you are on the other, then that flame is there.
1:45:48 And that flame, if all of us… we will create such a thing, the child will burst with it.
1:45:56 Sorry, I keep on repeating this. But when Mrs Simmons says, need he learn mathematics, why shouldn’t he?
1:46:10 TC: But only as a product of thought, yes?
1:46:18 K: Why shouldn’t he learn mathematics? Is that learning mathematics tradition? Is learning tradition? You are learning now, aren’t you? Is that tradition? But if you are learning and are still living in the traditional world, you make that learning become traditional.
1:46:54 That’s all. I have to stop, sorry.
1:46:58 JZ: So on Thursday at four o’ clock?
1:47:03 K: Thursday - do we?
1:47:05 Q: What time, four?