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GSBR74DT04 - Can we create an ambience that breaks conditioning?
Gstaad, Switzerland - 1 August 1974
Discussion with Teachers 04



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti's 4th discussion with teachers in Gstaad, 1974.
0:10 Krishnamurti: I hope you had a good sleep, did you, after lunch?
0:29 I didn’t! Is it possible to translate or to tell the students what we were talking about this morning, that the good is never in the future, that behaviour is always in the present.
1:10 I think if one could think about it, it has great significance. Well, let’s go back to…
1:24 So what are we talking about today? Now, rather. Questioner: May I ask a question?
1:40 K: Yes, sir.
1:41 Q: I want to know whatever we are doing, however we do it, how do we do it in a place which is petrified with tradition, which would be the institution of Brockwood itself?
1:54 K: Is the institution petrified or the people petrified?
2:01 Q: Or the people petrified by the institution. Mary Zimbalist: Is there petrification?
2:09 K: Does the institution petrify people, or petrified people form institutions?
2:18 Here, are we petrified?
2:22 Q: No.
2:24 K: I don’t know.
2:26 Q: I’m not.
2:28 K: You may be, I don’t know.
2:31 Q: Okay.
2:32 K: And if you are petrified, whatever you do will be, obviously, rotten. Now, is tradition and the following of tradition a movement towards death, which is petrification?
3:01 We have got students, we have got teachers, we have got a community.
3:14 No parent would send their children to the school if we said we are not going to teach mathematics, etc., etc. — they’ve got to learn a livelihood.
3:26 And there a certain kind of tradition is necessary.
3:38 The teaching of a subject can be taught traditionally or non-traditionally.
3:46 And that depends on the teacher and so on, so on, so on.
3:54 If we follow tradition in the deep sense of that word: blind obedience, acceptance of authority; that there is a tomorrow in which you are going to become perfect; that life is not now but in the past, controlling the future, and you are shaping your life to the future - all that is tradition, and that and that has brought about, as senior (inaudible) was saying at lunchtime, complete chaos in Italy, and is producing chaos everywhere else, more so perhaps in Italy and in India.
4:53 That is real death. And we said in this group, can the mind be on the other shore in which there is no tradition?
5:15 I wouldn’t say no tradition; there is no petrification, there is no dying in the real sense of that word.
5:27 Now, have we left tradition? That’s the real question. Not, ‘We are on the other bank’ - the moment you have dropped tradition there is no bank.
5:45 There is only a bank when you are looking from tradition to a bank which you think is not tradition.
5:56 But when you drop the traditional bank, which we went into at great length, there is only water – it is a fountain, that you drink or don’t drink.
6:14 Now, (laughs) having said all that at one breath, from there where do we go?
6:30 The students come with tradition.
6:38 Can we break down that tradition, not gradually - which is the acceptance of tradition, the gradualness - can we break that tradition as they come into your house.
6:55 That’s the problem, where we left off. Is that right? By Jove I am waking up! Yes. Can we do that? Can we create an atmosphere or a presence, a great feeling, that in itself generates the energy that breaks down the conditioning?
7:36 As a student I come to you conditioned in the old social, economic, moral sense, that there is: ‘I’ll be better tomorrow, I’ll be a great success,’ etc., etc.
8:02 Can you as a group break that down, not in the course of a year or two but almost within a week it’s gone?
8:17 Come on, sirs, discuss it with me. Ted Cartee: Of course, what you have just described in terms of the student has one other big factor in that several students come with an idea of freedom.
8:37 K: Yes.
8:38 TC: So besides the…
8:40 K: The idea of freedom is their reaction to non-freedom, which is authority, which is ‘I must do what the parents say.’ That’s a reaction, it’s not real freedom.
8:52 TC: Right. Montague Simmons: Well, there’s a bit more to it than that. A certain number come also with the idea that there is no future or anything like that, they are not ambitious to do this or anything like that — they seem to have dropped all that part of tradition.
9:07 K: No, but, sir, isn’t dropping all that a kind of despair?
9:11 MS: No, not necessarily. No, sometimes it is very hopeful I think.
9:16 K: Yes, but I am just inquiring. I mean, do they come with the sense that they have finished with all that, and have come to you to give them the waters of life, come to you to help them to drink at the fountain?
9:40 MS: I don’t know that they go as far as that. They have come rather more openly, I am suggesting, than perhaps you were suggesting.
9:49 K: Yes, that I can understand. But we are not dealing with those. Of course there are some who out of reaction want freedom, some who say, ‘I’ve finished with all this,’ who have had sex at the age of 12, drink and all that, and they say, ‘For God’s sake, that’s enough, now give me something new.’ There are those.
10:15 There are those who are traditionally bound. Now, how will you, in that presence, in that energy, that thing, how will you wipe all this out?
10:31 Doris Pratt: I think they are mostly in search of pleasure.
10:32 K: Yes, Miss Pratt.
10:33 DP: Which is a very powerful urge.
10:34 K: A powerful drive. Now, how will you break it all down?
10:47 That’s your responsibility. Right, sir.
10:52 TC: In military institutions and in other colleges, well, quite often they have a short period before the ordinary school year begins especially for the incoming people.
11:10 K: Students.
11:11 TC: Yes, the freshmen, in which they attempt to indoctrinate them and attempt to propagandise them.
11:17 K: Of course.
11:18 TC: Right. And at that time they use the opportunity to remove any really bad apples.
11:24 K: Throw them out.
11:25 TC: Right. And come down very hard on those who haven’t got any idea of what the rules are.
11:33 K: Who don’t conform, in fact…
11:34 TC: Who don’t conform.
11:35 K: ...to the rules.
11:36 TC: And so certainly we are not suggesting anything like that.
11:42 K: No. I know there is... I went to a monastery outside Florence, I can’t find the name, and the novitiates have to wait for eleven and a half years.
11:58 Certosa.
11:59 TC: To do what? Just to get in?
12:02 K: To get into the real brotherhood. Eleven and a half years. They are mostly peasants so they don’t mind. (Laughs) Brian Jenkins: What is certosa, sir?
12:12 K: Certosa is the name of the monastery.
12:17 TC: Well, it would be possible before the regular sessions begin for us to consider a period of time in which something besides the ordinary schedule occurs.
12:35 Is that what we can look at?
12:36 K: Ah, I am not suggesting that.
12:37 TC: You are not suggesting that.
12:38 K: I don’t think I am. It may come to that. We are examining.
12:42 MS: Krishnaji wants them to cross the threshold and get it instantly as they cross the threshold, no preliminary leading them up to it. That’s what he’s asking for.
12:49 TC: But he did mention one week. (Laughter) He did say…
12:54 Q: An instant to a week! (Laughs) TC: That’s on the tape.
13:01 K: It’s on the tape. Don’t take it literally, one week.
13:03 TC: Well, but one week implies different than...
13:04 K: Yes, sir. But I am just introducing it slowly.
13:12 Sorry! You see, if you really see tomorrow is non-existent, inwardly, psychologically, how will you deal with this problem?
13:44 There is no gradual breaking down. The gradual breaking down would be admitting time, the future, psychologically.
13:58 If you see that is utterly false, the truth of it, not just the verbal assertion of it, then how will you deal with this problem?
14:07 You understand, sir? It’s very interesting; find out.
14:11 TC: Won’t there be a tendency for anyone who is coming into this situation to interpret whatever happens to them according to their old way of thinking, so that no matter what occurs to them for a while they are going to disregard parts of it they don’t understand?
14:33 K: How will you help them? Come on, sir. I understand all that. Let us admit for the moment, sir, we have a week. There are fifty students, you have a week.
14:50 How will you dissipate this thing? Knowing for yourself the fact, not the idea but the fact, psychologically there is no tomorrow.
15:06 If you say there is tomorrow then you enter the whole tradition. You follow? We will gradually make the boy unconditioned, or condition him in a different way, or we will gradually help him to become good.
15:26 That means ‘you shall’ and ‘you shall not’. Now, all that is in the field of tradition, and you say, ‘I have abandoned tradition, I have completely put aside all that,’ not verbally but actually.
15:48 Then how will you deal with this?
15:57 Right, sir? (Pause) How would I deal with a boy who comes conditioned, in the traditional sense, and I have a week to break it all down?
16:26 Not indoctrinate him into another conditioning but break down his conditioning. Go on, sir, apply your brains cells, as Agatha Christie and Poirot says!
16:41 BJ: Sir, it would seem that if we are having new students this next year we could benefit a lot through spending a lot of time in discussion and in finding out about the students in the first week.
16:55 K: I am asking you. You have a week, how will you set about it, what will you do with the student, with these students that come to you?
17:08 BJ: Well, we talk about what the place is about.
17:12 K: No! You are back in the old business. What Brockwood stands for, what Brockwood intends to do, the project of Brockwood, the future of Brockwood.
17:27 BJ: No, I don’t mean that, sir. I mean one is with the student, one’s finding out about the student. He will have his reactions and so on. You will be sharing with all that, not putting something over.
17:42 K: No. You have a week in which you have to break his conditioning completely.
17:52 That is, you have a week in which to wipe away his traditions: ‘I am free’ — you follow?
18:01 - ‘I must do what I like.’ BJ: Surely, sir, it’s the same thing as what we are doing, say in the talks with you.
18:08 I mean we are looking at conditioning.
18:10 K: Yes.
18:11 BJ: Whether it’s his or it’s mine, I mean, it’s the same thing.
18:14 K: It’s the same thing. Now, after talking for the last three or four times, have you broken down your conditioning?
18:28 I happen to be il maestro, the teacher, and you are the student.
18:35 I have had a week – not really, I may have had four hours, probably, at the most.
18:43 And during that four hours has the conditioning been broken down? Or a little chipped off here and there but the main wall remains, a few bricks have been knocked off?
18:58 BJ: Probably a few bricks.
19:02 K: Why? (Pause) Q: Could it be that we approach everything with the traditional mind, thought?
19:21 K: Yes, we agree.
19:22 Q: And perhaps there’s another way of communication.
19:25 K: We are doing that now.
19:36 What does your mind say, sir?
19:52 How will you deal with this?
20:09 (Pause) TC: Are you serious now?
20:11 K: Absolutely. What do you think?
20:13 TC: I mean, I see that you haven’t… in some sense you haven’t solved this problem yourself.
20:21 K: What do you mean?
20:22 TC: It’s not to say the problem can’t be solved.
20:23 K: No, wait a minute. You have made a statement: I haven’t solved it. What happens? I talk there, in the tent; some of them are serious, some of them are not; some of them yawning, somebody was polishing her nails this morning, carefully brought with all the…
20:51 the box, with powder and everything, and wasn’t interested because her husband who was sitting next to her was nudging her all the time.
21:08 So… but if you are serious and I am serious – you follow? – to say, ‘This is right, we are going to do it, we will do it,’ it will happen.
21:21 But we are not so completely serious.
21:23 MZ: What about the seriousness of the student?
21:26 K: He is not.
21:31 MZ: He is not, but more that the audience?
21:33 K: No, but he said, ‘Have you done it?’ So we have a different problem. I am answering his question. Now, as a group, let’s assume… I hope you are serious — as a group we say, ‘All right, tradition is destructive, I will drop it.
21:53 I have more or less dropped it.’ Now you have got a group of students; how will we deal with them?
22:05 What would I do?
22:12 (Pause) Right, sir — have you got it?
22:28 First I would create – not create – I would help to bring about an atmosphere.
22:36 You understand? Am I making sense?
22:49 Not with incense, ringing bells, but create an atmosphere of seriousness, of real affection — you follow? — that quality in the air.
23:07 That when the student comes into there he feels that he is being… care… you know, there is something here.
23:16 Not something which pleases him — you follow?
23:26 — something that is both very disturbing and a feeling that he himself wants that.
23:45 Q: A feeling that stirs something in his brain cells, that perhaps is…
23:52 K: Ah! No, because the brain cells are... You understand what I mean?
23:58 DS: He sees that there is action there.
24:00 Q: He sees something there.
24:01 DS: He sees that it’s happening there; there is something there that feels: what is this?
24:08 Because there is a group of people who are all really living the same thing.
24:11 K: Not living, who are immersed in it.
24:15 DS: Yes.
24:16 K: And therefore they create a feeling of great disturbance to anybody who comes in who are traditional.
24:24 Naturally.
24:25 BJ: Wouldn’t that disturbance cause some to want to leave?
24:30 K: Let them leave. That’s not the point. No, no, don’t bring… Leaving or not leaving, that’s not the point. I said, if I was doing it, I would create this feeling of tremendous seriousness, weight.
24:53 You can’t go against that mountain. You follow?
24:57 TC: It doesn’t help that atmosphere to immediately jump on a child about the way he wears his hair, the way he dresses.
25:11 K: I have forgotten the child, please.
25:14 TC: Okay. If we forget about him then we shouldn’t concern ourselves with any of his personal habits at the time that he comes in.
25:20 K: No, wait, we will come to that. I am seeing what I would do. I, not you, or any of you. What I would do – don’t imitate me, please – what I would do to create this atmosphere of seriousness, of stability - not one day this…
25:46 Stability. You understand? I wonder if...
25:52 TC: We understand the words, sure.
25:58 K: (Laughs) An immovable stability.
26:04 TC: But not petrification.
26:09 K: No.
26:11 Q: A non-moveable stability in the non-traditional.
26:18 K: Have you ever been in an ancient temple?
26:24 Q: Yes.
26:25 K: Where?
26:26 Q: In Mexico.
26:28 K: Oh, no, Mexico, those people have spoilt everything there.
26:31 Q: Well, it’s the one I’ve been in.
26:34 K: Or in a really old cathedral where there is not…
26:41 No, no, please don’t jump on it, just listen to it.
26:48 A sense of ancient stability, you know, not tradition, orthodoxy and all that, but the earth is stable.
26:56 I don’t know if you are following all this. I would bring it about, that, a sense of seriousness, deep, abiding stability, and – don’t jump on me if I use words – reverence.
27:42 Reverence goes with trust, love - all that is implied in that word.
27:52 I would create it.
27:55 TC: Isn’t there some ambiguity between stability and the idea that there is no future?
28:09 K: Stability has no future. It is stable. The earth, that mountain, it has no future, it is there.
28:17 TC: Yes. But if it were continually changing then it wouldn’t have stability.
28:22 K: Please, I am using that word stable in the sense, not permanency — a sense of immovable truth.
28:34 You understand? Unchangeable reality.
28:48 (Pause) When you have that you do create a tremendous sense, an atmosphere that one feels as you come into it.
29:12 I would begin with that.
29:20 Right? At least that I would work on it before the students came. Terri Saunders: It begins to be a non-sectarian monastery.
29:31 K: It’s not a monastery. Oh, no.
29:35 TS: I know, not a monastery; there is no religion involved there. But the whole idea, this thing, this stability, isn’t that what every church for centuries has wanted to get?
29:45 K: Ah, no. No, their stability is based on a belief, on a belief in Christ or Krishna or Buddha, or they are going through that stability to achieve nirvana or heaven or this.
30:01 This is nothing of that. That’s not stable.
30:03 TS: I know but ours is based on non-belief.
30:05 K: No, this is not the opposite.
30:09 TS: No, not opposite but then there is nothing; there is no thing, there is no symbol, there is no sign… (inaudible) …the window.
30:16 K: Ah, no, no, no. No, when I am using the word… Let’s change the word. All right, if you don’t like that word. A feeling of something that can never be moved.
30:30 TS: I know what it is, but I can’t put it in an institution.
30:36 K: Oh, no, no, it is nothing to do with institutions.
30:41 TS: I know, I said putting it into an institution.
30:44 K: No. I said – please just listen to what I said – atmosphere; I didn’t say institution.
31:00 We are concerned not with institutions, not with churches, not with establishing Brockwood as the Vatican.
31:10 MS: Once you use the word ‘institution’ you have killed the whole thing.
31:16 K: You have killed the whole damn thing.
31:17 MS: You put a label on it, it says ‘beer’...
31:19 TS: But what acts like an institution, I call an institution. That’s what I’m saying.
31:24 K: Oh, no.
31:25 MZ: That’s the opposite.
31:26 K: You see, you come to it...
31:27 DS: You don’t have to call it an institution because there are a group of people all...
31:31 TS: ...operating by a standard set of rules.
31:35 K: No!
31:36 MZ: No.
31:37 DS: No. No, not at all. These aren’t rules.
31:40 MS: This isn’t the Tannegg institution operating at this moment.
31:41 K: All right. Here we are – do you call this an institution?
31:45 TS: If we made it regular it would be institutionalized.
31:47 K: Not at all.
31:48 DS: Only if you allowed it to by your approach.
31:51 K: Not at all. I abhor institutions. I have wandered away from several of them. I wouldn’t enter into Brockwood if it became an institution.
32:02 TS: No, I don’t suspect you would.
32:04 K: No, no, you are missing my whole point. The moment you say, this becomes an institution, or this is an institution, you are already looking at it from a conditioned mind.
32:16 You are looking at it.
32:18 TS: All I can look at is what is there.
32:21 K: That’s your idea. Look, sir, what are we trying to do? I am asking you… I am asking how to deal with children who come conditioned — and we are supposed to be out of that traditional rut — what can we do within a week to break it down?
32:52 That’s not an institution. And that can never be an institution.
32:59 TS: We are not an institution, no.
33:01 K: Then?
33:03 TS: Then out of somewhere, out of this no-institution that exists, all of a sudden there is institutionalization.
33:08 K: No, of course not.
33:10 MZ: If you are doing this thing that is the opposite of institution…
33:15 MS: You are thinking traditionally the whole time.
33:17 TS: No, I am saying that as it is now, it is absolutely traditional - as it is.
33:22 K: How do you know?
33:23 DP: How do you know, sir?
33:25 TS: Have you lived at Brockwood?
33:26 DP: How long were you there, sir?
33:28 TS: How long were you there?
33:30 DP: I am asking you.
33:31 TS: I have been with enough people, students as well. If students – if they have been lying to me then Brockwood is turning out liars and they are bad for another reason - I don’t know...
33:40 K: Sir, why do you…
33:41 Q: Terri, let’s not have this degenerate into… It is becoming so conflictual. I think you and I talked the other day, and maybe you make it more concrete.
33:52 Terri wants to… somehow I think that Terri has the idea that when there is a rule within the community...
34:00 TS: I have no ideas! All I have is what people, what everybody seems to have been agreeing on, people against Brockwood, people for Brockwood, people in Brockwood, people outside of Brockwood - a certain set of constants.
34:10 Okay, that’s all I can go by, I don’t have any other facts. I haven’t been there.
34:15 K: No, sir, don’t go by them.
34:16 MZ: What are the constants?
34:18 K: I don’t know. You have to live there to find out. It’s like my staying in America and imagining what people have said about India.
34:27 I say, ‘Go to hell. What you say about India is not India.’ I have to go there, live and see what it is.
34:38 That is, we are not discussing Brockwood. We are trying to say that a group of us who are so far, have said, ‘We are committed to a living or putting-off our traditions.’ All the traditions, which we have been discussing, what we mean by them.
35:11 And can we as a group, serious - because we must have a school because that is the only hope of a new generation, of a new mind and so on – so can we, within a week, that’s our problem for the moment, bring about a breakdown of the conditioning in the boy, in the student?
35:44 That’s all what we are talking, not institutions. You introduced the word institution and therefore killed the investigation.
35:57 I am not concerned about Brockwood; I can walk out of it tomorrow; I’m sure most of us can walk out of it.
36:05 DS: But how can you, Krishnaji, if it’s your responsibility?
36:07 K: No, no, wait. We are not discussing walking out or walking in. We are trying to find out what we can do, how to do this, which has nothing whatsoever to do with institutions.
36:18 TS: We can do it right here.
36:23 K: That’s what I am saying.
36:31 But we have undertaken a responsibility of a school, and all of us here are part of that school.
36:40 Which is not an institution. It is an institution in the sense it is a school. By calling it an institution you condemn it. I am not. It’s an institution when I get into a train or an aeroplane, or drive a car along the road - that’s an institution.
37:07 Here we have a different question altogether. Not what happens at Brockwood, whether some say this and some say that - that’s all silly for me.
37:22 We will deal with that much later, but what I am saying is: is this possible?
37:32 (Pause) TC: Are we actually considering to take the students that will be coming to us in September and...
37:50 K: What are you going to do?
37:53 TC: And do something with them.
37:54 K: You’ve got to do it. That’s your responsibility. I have sent you my son.
37:58 TC: Well, we always do something.
38:00 K: Ah! We always do something - I quite agree — but that’s not what I want my son to be. I want my son to be non-traditional, in the deep sense of that word, at every level.
38:24 His whole thinking.
38:25 TC: Are we inquiring whether it can be done, or how to do it or what we should do?
38:32 K: What one is to do, not whether it can be done. What is one to do? You have got a car in front of you; you don’t know how to – you follow? — the engine. You have got to do something.
38:50 Go on, sir.
38:57 I said, if I was the teacher there I would create an atmosphere that is tremendously strong.
39:12 Not to condition him, which would be institution - like going to Eton or one of these places, it is well established, well soaked in tradition, and it has got its own atmosphere like a Catholic church, or Catholic school, and they are conditioned.
39:33 I don’t mean that.
39:37 DS: It awakens his sensibilities.
39:44 K: No, the atmosphere I am talking about.
39:49 DS: Yes. But he will have to respond to it in some way.
39:55 K: I am going to create it first.
39:59 DS: Yes.
40:00 K: I will see what happens.
40:01 DS: Yes, but how does it not become the influence of the Catholic church?
40:07 K: Because first of all, there is no belief, there is no hierarchy, there is no ritual, circus, and candles.
40:21 DS: It is interesting. He says, ‘This is different.’ K: No, you are again going back to the student, I am not.
40:34 I am concerned with creating an ambience, because that matters very much, you know?
41:02 If I go into a house and I am really welcome, I feel at home there.
41:13 I am not saying Brockwood should have a… I am not thinking about Brockwood, so don’t say that. If I enter a house where I am welcome, where I feel the people are right, there is an atmosphere there, isn’t there?
41:35 What’s the matter? What are you all…
41:40 TS: Are you assuming that all the people there are capable of this?
41:44 K: I said I would do this.
41:46 TS: Oh, I know you would, yes.
41:49 K: My dear chap, you are misunderstanding the whole thing. I said, what would you do?
41:55 TS: All alone.
41:58 K: A group of us, not alone.
42:03 TS: But a group of us then all has to be capable of doing it.
42:06 K: Of course. And a group of us say, we are committed to this. We don’t say, ‘Yes, I am sorry, I am off tomorrow, you look after your own grandmother.’ We are there.
42:25 We have left our houses, we have left our careers, we have left everything; we want to be there. Not for personal enjoyment; we feel this is right.
42:40 And I say to them, part of them, I say, what shall we do?
42:50 I don’t say you have done or not done it at Brockwood; that’s irrelevant.
42:57 Face it as a new problem. (Pause) Well, sir?
43:19 How would you do it?
43:24 TC: It requires a certain attitude on the part of we people at Brockwood.
43:34 K: Attitude? You can’t have an attitude. You are up to your neck. You can’t sit, sir, as though… have an attitude; you are totally responsible, you are totally involved in freeing yourself from tradition, completely.
44:05 That’s why we have met.
44:13 And in September, at the end of September, you are going to meet them.
44:20 What will your responsibility do, create? You follow, sir? If you say it is an attitude, it is just an idea.
44:34 TC: Well, it was a poor choice of words, certainly. I wouldn’t have used that word if I had thought for a moment.
44:43 K: Yes. So I am asking you, how will you...
44:48 Q: If each one of us, Krishnaji, felt that — every single teacher and every single person that was in that institution, felt that way...
45:03 K: Don’t use that word institution. For God’s sake, I’m fed up with that word!
45:07 TS: That’s my mistake.
45:08 K: Not your mistake — this goes on all the time.
45:10 Q: If every single person...
45:13 K: But you said if.
45:15 Q: All right. Every single person in that school...
45:18 K: But they don’t.
45:19 Q: Well they must.
45:20 K: The must is another tradition...
45:22 Q: Then they don’t belong in the school.
45:24 K: Don’t say those things, for God’s… Don’t lay down the law. What are we to do? Here is a group of us.
45:41 We say, after discussing, analysing — no, having a conversation, inquiring - we say, that is perfectly right.
45:52 Tradition hasn’t solved a thing. It hasn’t brought a new life to people, it hasn’t changed people, a new quality of mind hasn’t entered into people.
46:03 Now here we are and we say, look, we see the truth of not having tradition.
46:13 We have gone into it, I won’t go on repeating it. And as we are responsible for children, how can we help them to break down this tradition?
46:33 MS: If everybody is committed like that and really has seen that, the atmosphere is created, it’s there, once it’s done.
46:39 K: Yes, sir.
46:40 MS: You don’t have to talk about it or explain to each child...
46:43 K: That’s what I am asking. I didn’t want to be rude and say, have you broken down your tradition?
46:52 That’s inevitable. If I have broken down totally that thing called tradition I am...
47:16 You see, I have a problem here. I have a problem of responsibility, real responsibility, to uncondition the student and not condition or indoctrinate him in another direction.
47:39 That’s my problem. Now, how am I going to do it?
47:47 What am I to do? You don’t help me, do you?
47:51 Q: Don’t we help each other by pointing out to each other how we get stuck in tradition and trying to... (inaudible) K: No, sir, see the danger of that.
48:02 You point it out to me, my conditioning, when I am tired or depressed, and I react.
48:14 And that reaction enters your mind.
48:18 Q: (Inaudible) K: You are not getting my point.
48:24 Q: I get your point. What shall we say from there, sir?
48:27 K: I want to be above and beyond for you to point out to me, totally.
48:38 MZ: It’s unnecessary.
48:40 K: Totally. I want to be in that position where you cannot point it out to me. You see the difference?
48:48 Q: But you see, we keep jumping on two sides of the fence when we are talking here. On one hand we are saying, yes, this is what must be, and on the other hand you are saying very politely - or not saying and implying and as Monty said...
49:06 (inaudible) K: No, sir, that’s only… Don’t make… Look, sir, I have been criticized all my life, about this, that, homosexual, sleeping with dozens of women, money-minded, chasing always with rich women, everything you can think of – dull, stupid, idiotic, liar, everything.
49:39 Not one of those criticisms has touched me because… never mind!
49:48 (Laughs) I am not those, anything like that.
50:01 You see, when I drop tradition I don’t have to be pointed out.
50:11 You follow, sir? You don’t have to come and say, ‘Look, you are conditioned, you old fool,’ there.
50:23 I am so watchful. You follow? You may say, ‘Well, my dear chap, you have got a blind spot over there of which you are not aware.’ And I say, ‘Look, show it to me.’ Show it to me, don’t criticise, don’t say, ‘You are wrong, you are conditioned,’ point it out.
50:55 I may have seen it and therefore it may not exist. To you it may look as if it is a blind spot. But I want you to point out, not criticise, because when you criticise you are taking a position.
51:14 I am not. I want you to show it to me. The showing is an act of friendliness, an act of care, an act of attention, in which there is no criticism.
51:27 But the moment you say, ‘A blind spot, you old fool,’ I say, ‘Look, I may know it, but you are translating it as a blind spot.’ So that’s a different matter.
51:41 Right? I have been through all this, sir, all my life. So, we have got this problem. How shall we deal with it?
51:58 God, how many criticisms – vain, you have got good looks, and you are... Don’t — I am fed up with all this stuff, silly stuff!
52:12 Now, what shall we do with this problem?
52:22 Come on, sir.
52:27 TC: Is the problem changed a little bit since the last time we talked about it?
52:43 Is the problem now one that, we recognize that the proper atmosphere...
52:49 K: No, I am asking, how will you – you may do it differently – I want... so that we all do it together.
52:57 You may create an atmosphere which may be opposed to mine, and therefore we destroy each other’s atmosphere. So, together, what shall we do, if we have abandoned tradition?
53:14 TS: That if is taller than all these mountains.
53:23 K: I don’t think so.
53:25 BJ: What did he say, sir?
53:28 TS: I said that if is…
53:30 K: He said it is a tall order, it is as high as those mountains. And I said, I don’t think so.
53:36 TS: I don’t know.
53:40 K: I don’t think so. I think it is very simple if we look at it. I don’t want to go through all the complicated process of can I, can I not, and, my God, I am conditioned, how shall I get rid of my conditioning before I can uncondition another?
53:57 I’ve been… I don’t want to go through all those silly examinations. I say, I see immediately the whole bank of tradition.
54:16 Right, sir? And what it has done historically, what it is doing now, what it has done, all the rest of it, and I say, I won’t touch it.
54:32 Not out there, but in here.
54:42 Q: Once it is...
54:47 K: Madame, the thing is, have you done it? Sorry, not you - I mustn’t ask personally.
55:00 Has this happened?
55:03 Q: Krishnaji, when we are near you it is abandoned, but somehow it comes back again.
55:13 K: Ah! It can never come back.
55:17 Q: Then it is not total.
55:20 K: It’s up to you. It can never come back. It’s like saying, ‘I see the bottle marked poison and I am going to drink it.
55:30 Occasionally I drink it’ – you follow? – ‘but I see it is poisonous.’ No, that doesn’t mean a thing.
55:42 Look, sir, this is terribly serious, you understand?
55:49 Otherwise you won’t produce a new thing.
55:57 There won’t be the flame. Put it round the other way: the fountain is there; how will you help those boys to drink?
56:13 Right? Not whisky and beer, pubs and all the rest of it. The fountain is there; how will you help them? Come on, sirs. Therefore from that arises: what is education? Right? What are you educating the students for? To become glorified clerks?
56:45 Q: Glorified what?
56:51 K: Glorified clerks.
56:58 I said this to a very high official, in talking about education at a meeting.
57:07 Oh, tremendously high. And he got up and walked away and I have never seen him. He was a glorified clerk, all right!
57:21 Q: Do you mean clerk?
57:23 K: Clerk, yes.
57:25 MS: No, he means clerk.
57:29 Q: In English it’s clerk.
57:33 K: Yes, it is called clerk in America, clerk in India… in England.
57:43 Now, we have got this responsibility, and the flame is there for you to light it, the candle is there for you to light it.
58:04 It’s all there: the fountain, the candle, the (inaudible), and everything is there.
58:18 It’s our responsibility to light it.
58:29 It’s our responsibility to help, to — not make – to see that the boys want to drink that fountain, that water.
58:45 Go on, sir, I can...
58:48 Q: Well, isn’t that the crux of it? If one is to bring the...
58:51 K: I said want to drink.
58:52 Q: Yes.
58:53 K: That is not coercion.
58:55 Q: No, she said crux.
58:57 Q: I said crux.
58:59 Q: Isn’t that the crux of it?
59:02 K: Ah, crux. Put it any way. What will you do? They don’t want to drink. (Laughs) Q: But if they are brought to a point of seriousness.
59:15 K: What will you do?
59:17 Q: Well, if one…
59:20 K: I want beer, whisky, because I saw my mother and father drink beer or whisky, whatever they do, and I want that.
59:34 And you are giving me the fresh living waters of the fountain; and I say, ‘What are you talking about? I want beer.’ How will you – please take that one thing – how will you break down that thing?
59:55 Not within three years – my God, I am dead by then.
1:00:02 You are allowed a week, by God.
1:00:09 (Laughs) Otherwise your head will be chopped off! (Laughs) What will you do? Sir, this is really an astonishingly interesting problem, you understand?
1:00:26 It gives new life to each one. What will you do, sirs?
1:00:31 Q: When there is something within you, an atmosphere…
1:00:39 K: It’s an immediate problem, don’t say when.
1:00:49 You have got… there is that fountain, which is not whisky, and the boy has drunk whisky and beer and he wants that.
1:01:02 And you say, ‘For God’s sake, if you drink at that fountain your life will be different.
1:01:09 Your whole life will be enchanted.’ And he says, ‘Sorry, I want my beer.’ And he comes to you with that.
1:01:19 How will you bring about that he himself, out of his own heart, out of his own mind, out of his own delight, wants to drink at that fountain?
1:01:33 Right, sir? Oh, you… What will you do, sir? Go on, sir, exercise your brain, which can find an answer, I assure you.
1:01:59 We haven’t exercised it, that’s all.
1:02:05 BJ: Together with him we are going to look at suffering.
1:02:12 K: Wait! I want him to drink that water not his blasted beer.
1:02:19 BJ: I don’t see how you have answered what I said.
1:02:25 K: Suffering? But that has nothing to do with it.
1:02:33 I am not interested in his suffering or my suffering. I am interested, as my responsibility as a teacher, having dropped – and I mean really dropped tradition.
1:02:46 There is a fountain, a fountain of real waters, and I want him to drink it with his heart, not with his mind.
1:03:03 That’s my problem - not his suffering, my suffering, universal suffering. That’s a different matter; we can tackle that. This is my problem now. Tell me how to dissolve it.
1:03:24 You are going to face this within the next month, month and a half, seven weeks.
1:03:34 What will you do?
1:03:35 Q: Do we approach this as a staff or as an individual…
1:03:40 K: As a group.
1:03:41 Q: As a group.
1:03:42 K: You are all here. This group is going to face this issue.
1:03:48 Q: So it’s not an individual action.
1:03:50 K: No, no, because you might have one thing and I might… and we will destroy each other if we have different opinions.
1:03:57 In that process we destroy the child.
1:03:58 Q: Is it something that we will sit down and agree upon?
1:04:02 K: No. What we will do? Let’s find out. Not agree. I mean, the thing...
1:04:13 TC: Let’s really try to find out. I mean, seeing that’s the question.
1:04:18 K: Sir, if it is a problem to you, a burning problem to you, to all of us, do we have an agreement?
1:04:33 Q: Yes. If it is a burning problem to us all we have an agreement.
1:04:40 K: Wait, wait, see the meaning of that word agreement. Agreeing about something.
1:04:47 TS: About the problem.
1:04:49 K: No, no! No, wait. I am trying… When you use the word agreement, agreeing with opinions.
1:04:59 Q: It’s not an opinion, it’s a...
1:05:03 K: Agreeing to a conclusion. Agreeing: yes you are right, I am wrong, but I’ll accept you because it is right.
1:05:14 That’s an agreement. It’s a (inaudible). What do you call it, sir? A contract. But I don’t want a contract. I want… you see it and I want to see it. When you see it, both of us see it, there is no contract.
1:05:43 When both of us see that snake is deadly, we see it; there is no agreement about it.
1:05:55 So. Gosh I have got to fight everything. (Laugh) Now, what will you do? That is all of us, as a group, are responsible for that boy, responsible that he drinks at that fountain, out of his own heart, not pushed into it.
1:06:31 That he gives up his beer, his whisky, all that, and says, ‘My God, this is marvellous!’ And therefore he will invite all his little friends to drink; the thing is something different.
1:06:46 Well, I can go on about it.
1:06:58 (Inaudible), sir. (Inaudible), that’s what we have got. Come on, what will you do?
1:07:22 (Pause) That’s what I mean, the stability of that water.
1:07:41 You understand, sir? It’s never dry.
1:07:51 TC: Well, I think it’s fairly clear that we are that water, in...
1:08:06 K: Look, Ted, have you drunk at that fountain?
1:08:13 TC: That’s what I am saying.
1:08:16 K: I know you are saying that.
1:08:26 I am asking you.
1:08:37 If you have not – I don’t say you have or not – how am I to help you to drink there?
1:08:47 Help you, not coerce you, not to show my delight in the water - then you will also be delighted and want it.
1:08:58 I want to see, without coercion, without example, that you drink that water.
1:09:10 There you are; what shall I do with you? Come on, sir, let’s discuss this that way. What can I do?
1:09:19 TC: You see, now that, right at this moment, puts me in a position of…
1:09:33 I am not you and me at the same moment. So I can just look at you asking that question, and not assume that I am you, the questioner.
1:09:48 Right?
1:09:49 K: Right.
1:09:51 TC: So I understand in some sense what is happening, and I want even more exactly to be as completely certain of what is happening, as you give every indication of being absolutely...
1:10:22 K: I understand, I understand. No, take my question as it is.
1:10:27 TC: Yes.
1:10:29 K: You haven’t drunk at that fountain. You may have. I say to you, without coercion, without all that, there is that fountain and you voluntarily, happily, with great delight drink it, without coercion.
1:10:54 That’s my feeling, that I don’t want in any way to coerce you, in any way to push you, direct you; it is there.
1:11:09 And I say, ‘Man, if you could only drink that.’ Not in that voice or in persuasion and all that.
1:11:16 TC: Yes, yes.
1:11:17 K: Now, how am I to do that to you?
1:11:24 You, there, now. Wait. This is a very interesting point. Let’s tackle it. What are we to do?
1:11:32 TC: Well, now I say… well, I seem perfectly available to that possibility.
1:11:43 K: Ah, no! No, I don’t want...
1:11:46 TC: Yes, yes, but...
1:11:47 K: The fountain is there; drink it!
1:11:50 TC: How am I not doing that?
1:11:52 K: Ah! No.
1:11:54 TC: No?
1:11:55 K: You are missing my point.
1:11:56 TC: Yes.
1:11:57 K: I talked an hour and a half this morning, now I am just taking a little breather.
1:12:05 There you are, Ted; I don’t know whether you have drunk at that fountain or not.
1:12:12 I don’t know. I won’t persuade you. It is there, bubbling.
1:12:24 TC: Well, I already feel – just let me tell you a fact to my senses – I already feel that you don’t have very much to do at all with that which I have every...
1:12:41 K: Indication.
1:12:43 TC: ...indication to do, to get. But I don’t know if that is what you…
1:12:56 K: No, no.
1:12:58 Q: What is holding?
1:13:00 K: No, no.
1:13:03 Q: (Inaudible) What is holding Ted from the fountain?
1:13:06 K: No, no, then we enter into quite a different field – what’s holding him. Then I have to examine what is holding him and analyse it, go through all that process. I don’t want to go through that process.
1:13:21 MZ: Are we assuming that Ted or let’s say...
1:13:25 K: I am talking about Ted.
1:13:27 MZ: Well, to make it impersonal...
1:13:29 K: I am talking about Ted.
1:13:31 MZ: He is aware of a fountain – is that assuming?
1:13:34 K: No. Wait, please, just listen to it.
1:13:43 Tradition has said there is a fountain, drink.
1:13:52 And the tradition said these are the barriers for you which prevent you from drinking, get rid of them, control them, change them, substitute them - that is the tradition.
1:14:08 And tradition says there is a teacher who is going to lead you to it; trust the teacher, put your faith in the bloody teacher!
1:14:20 Sorry! (Laughter) And all that. That is the tradition. And I have broken that tradition, therefore no barriers - you follow?
1:14:42 - no guide, and I say, ‘My friend, there is a fountain there, I know what it is, I have drunk at it.
1:14:55 I can’t tell you what to do because that would be back again.’ So how can I bring in to you the urgency of that action of drinking?
1:15:20 Urgency. The urgency then will wipe out everything. I don’t know if you follow what I mean.
1:15:30 TC: Yes, but I don’t… I have… there is an urgency.
1:15:41 What interests me now is how this urgency that I am in may not be the urgency...
1:15:54 K: Ah, I am not interested. You see, you are going back again.
1:16:02 TC: I see. Yes. Yes, because then… (inaudible) K: As a teacher, I say to you: jump.
1:16:21 Jump into the water and there is the fountain. And you say, ‘My friend, I don’t know how to swim, I don’t know how to jump, tell me what to do.’ Those are all the…
1:16:43 So how am I - that’s my problem, you understand, actual problem now – how am I to…
1:16:54 – I must find the right word - not convince you, not help you, not persuade you, not act as an example.
1:17:11 MS: Reveal to you?
1:17:15 K: Yes, reveal to you the immensity of that water. Reveal, show, you know, so that you say, ‘Quite!’ — and there it is.
1:17:29 You follow? What am I to do? Touch you? (Laughter) Wait. No. No, just see the... Touch you, bless you, hold your hand and point out, be tremendously affectionate to you?
1:17:48 All those are persuasions in a subtle form.
1:17:56 I won’t do it.
1:18:01 TC: Without the student or the person ever having tasted… without Ted having tasted that water, that water to him…
1:18:11 Q: …it’s a supposition, it’s...
1:18:16 K: No. When you have left the tradition completely then you are drinking at the fountain.
1:18:26 Right?
1:18:27 TC: Well, then there is no problem.
1:18:30 K: That’s what I am saying to you. You are still thinking in terms of tradition.
1:18:47 You are without tradition - right? — suppose - completely, and I meet you. I say, ‘My God, this is the most extraordinary man I have met; he has no tradition.’ You understand?
1:19:00 There is no background, there is nothing.
1:19:01 TC: Well, you might think I am a bore too.
1:19:03 K: No, no. I observe this and I say, ‘What an extraordinary phenomenon this is.
1:19:17 Your whole inward thing is not constructed, put together; it is nothing there.’ DS: (Inaudible) K: Who?
1:19:26 DS: Well, we say in this instance Ted.
1:19:35 K: I am not interested whether it is alive or dead or sensitive.
1:19:44 My concern is, has he left the tradition and therefore he is drinking the water?
1:19:56 If he has not left, disbanded or put away or thrown it all out, then what am I to do?
1:20:07 You follow? Ted has not – forgive me – Ted has not thrown away his tradition and what am I to do with him?
1:20:20 He is my responsibility — because I am talking to him directly - he is my responsibility and how am I within a very short period to break down this tradition in him?
1:20:44 I won’t do all the traditional things - you follow? – touch, miracle, my example, glory, I sit on a throne and he just comes - I discard all that bilge.
1:20:56 Now, what am I to do with him?
1:21:06 I am responsible therefore I can’t leave him.
1:21:19 I can’t say, ‘Sorry, you are hopeless, old boy, go somewhere else.’ I won’t allow you to leave.
1:21:36 Allow - you understand, all that.
1:21:44 It’s a miracle that you have been sent, it is a miracle that you are here, therefore it’s my responsibility.
1:21:53 You understand? So I have - as my responsibility is flaming I have to see that you are free of tradition.
1:22:05 Now, what I am to do? It is the same thing with the boy. You follow? And I have a week with you, no more, because then gods close the door.
1:22:35 You understand? I am only… that’s a joke. Now, what am I to do? I have got to find a way. I am putting you in that position. Right?
1:22:49 TC: Is there any way that...
1:22:51 Q: Sir, what do you mean you are putting him? You are in that position — why isn’t it operating?
1:22:58 K: Ah!
1:22:59 Q: No, not ‘ah’ — why isn’t it?
1:23:00 K: I’ll show it to you.
1:23:02 Q: Answer your question, please, sir.
1:23:03 K: I’ll show it to you. I am not with him for a week.
1:23:07 Q: But we are here now.
1:23:10 K: Sir, he is not willing to listen, he’s caught in tradition.
1:23:18 He is not willing to listen and see the fact.
1:23:27 The destructive nature of tradition - see it!
1:23:34 And I am talking to him day after day. I am allowed a week. Perhaps if I am allowed a week and I talked to him every day, something would take place. Right? It’s bound to take place. Either he will go mad or just walk out.
1:23:57 But I am not with Ted every day.
1:24:05 But you have these boys every day for the next three years.
1:24:14 Our positions are not the same. That’s why in the old days they said, ‘You come and live with me.’ You follow?
1:24:28 The teacher, or the guru, whatever that bird was, he was married, children: ‘Come and live with me.’ That goes on in India still.
1:24:38 The people who want to learn singing or drum – you know, mridangam and all the rest of it – they have to go and live with the man, with the master.
1:24:52 Now, you are the masters (laughs) and you have got these boys living with you.
1:25:18 (Pause) Ted, do you see what is taking place?
1:25:25 It’s very interesting. (Pause) TC: I feel like it becomes very nearly impossible.
1:25:43 K: If you knew that when you jump the waters are safe, that has no validity.
1:25:52 TC: No.
1:25:53 K: But to jump not knowing – you understand? – that’s what we are asking. Physicists are doing this. Inquire not into the known but into the unknown.
1:26:13 And they can’t leave their roots from the known, and so they carry the known into what they consider the unknown.
1:26:27 Here we are asking: Ted, jump.
1:26:35 It may be concrete. (Laughs) So you want assurance that it is not concrete.
1:26:48 See our... And I say, sorry, find out.
1:26:54 TC: And you are not willing to push. And you are not going to push him.
1:27:00 K: Of course not.
1:27:03 TC: You are not going to beg him.
1:27:06 Q: That’s all in tradition.
1:27:08 K: Dangle a carrot in front of you! Knowing that it is a carrot, that it is cement! (Laughs) TC: And you are not going to just tell him, ‘Well, it’s up to you, jump or not jump’?
1:27:16 K: No. You have a responsibility.
1:27:20 Q: You want him to jump?
1:27:21 K: Responsibility to create a mind that is free of tradition.
1:27:33 Q: Sir, isn’t it worthwhile to spend one week with Ted, then Ted will spend one week with all of us together?
1:27:41 K: We might, but I’m doing it now.
1:27:48 God, if you could jump! So what am I to do? Spend a week – just listen, sir – spend a week with all of you?
1:28:03 Would that do it? I won’t admit time, you understand, sir?
1:28:10 BJ: Sir, could you go more into what you mean, jump? Because as I see it… (Pause in recording) K: And there it is.
1:28:27 Being confused, can you walk out of it without persuasion, all that business, just walk out of it?
1:29:04 It is possible. It is not faith – then go back to church.
1:29:22 I think you will jump when you see all this very clearly.
1:29:28 MZ: You see, if the house is on fire you don’t ask whether it is snow or grass out there, you get out.
1:29:37 K: That’s just it. You pick up any bucket, or any hose that is connected to a pipe, I hope!
1:29:47 (Laughs) MZ: I’ve done it, into the snow.
1:29:52 K: Yes. Burnt two houses - you know it.
1:30:03 When you actually see the futility of all this then you’ve finished.
1:30:11 But you don’t see it. My problem then is, how can I help you to see it? By talking? By showing the fallacy of all this?
1:30:34 And if I show the fallacy, you have arguments for and against. So we will be again at the verbal, intellectual level.
1:30:47 So what shall I do? And you are always looking through your glasses, coloured, and so you never take them off, and yet you want to look.
1:31:04 Right? So what will make you, persuade you, naturally, easily, to remove those glasses and look?
1:31:20 Some more hits on the head?
1:31:22 TC: First seeing that I have them on.
1:31:25 K: Some more hits on the head? Some more suffering? Some more reward? You follow? All those are on the bank of the river, which is tradition.
1:31:43 So what is the catalyst that will make you say, ‘Right, I have no glasses’?
1:32:03 You see, Ted, it is a question of energy; energy which is not brought through food, though food is necessary; it is not an energy of desire – when you have that you have a will in operation, and therefore resistance, conflict and all that.
1:32:43 You want a different kind of energy. The energy that comes through clarity. You see? You are following? The clarity…
1:32:54 TC: Can I say something right there? I already see the futility, the conflict, the friction and all of the messed up way the other energy works, and so that I...
1:33:11 K: So when you have… you want… Clarity is necessary, isn’t it? When there is clarity there is energy. Right? Now, how am I to help you to see clearly?
1:33:35 I can’t. You can accept me as an authority and follow. What am I to do, or do nothing, to see that you have clarity?
1:34:04 (Pause) Not Ted - you, all of us.
1:34:21 You see, I won’t do a thing.
1:34:35 That’s the first thing to realise. I won’t do a thing, move a finger, both physically or inwardly.
1:34:50 Then what takes place? You see, sir, what takes place?
1:35:03 Come. You see something quick. What takes place? (Pause) TC: I see a kind of a non-resistance.
1:35:26 K: No, more than that, sir. What takes place?
1:35:29 TC: Well, a kind of a hole that you get pulled into.
1:35:38 K: He faces an immovable reality.
1:35:51 Right? So he has to do something. I don’t know if you are following this. When this man says, ‘I won’t lift the smallest finger to help you.’ Right?
1:36:18 That’s an immovable fact.
1:36:30 And you are facing that. What takes place? Go on, Ted, move.
1:36:53 What takes place when there is an enormous boulder in the road, you can’t move?
1:36:57 Q: You go around it. You get over it or around it.
1:37:07 K: You can’t. What do you do? Either go round it or climb it, and then where? Are you in that position? Here is a man who says, ‘I won’t help you.’ Q: Well, then I’ll do it myself.
1:37:34 K: Ah! You don’t face the reality of it.
1:37:49 You see what happens? I won’t help you. I won’t help you to look through a microscope.
1:38:05 Then what happens?
1:38:12 I won’t help you lift a finger. I am immovable. Then you have to exercise your greatest insight, ingenuity to move and you are not doing it!
1:38:28 You follow my point?
1:38:40 That is real creativeness, not pictures — that sense of facing an immovable reality and you have to act.
1:38:51 The immovable reality is the children want beer, and you have to find a way, an insight, an action that will break that desire.
1:39:19 Go on, sir. But you have to face the immovable reality; you can’t go and say, ‘Well, I’ll put garlands round it and incense and kick it around and put it in a beastly church and all that.’ You have got to face that and move.
1:39:41 That’s enough! I don’t want to play anymore.
1:39:43 Q: It’s the same isn’t it, an immovable reality whether it’s in here or...
1:40:11 K: No, no, don’t translate it into something else. Here it is, a fact.
1:40:25 K says, ‘I won’t lift a finger to help you.’ And he means it.
1:40:35 You can cut his throat, cut whatever you want, but he won’t move from that.
1:40:43 That’s an immovable reality, because he says, ‘Look, all the churches have done it, all the gurus have done it, all the books – that’s all tradition, that’s death.’ Faced with that, and you are committed in your responsibility, and you have got to act.
1:41:14 Right, Ted?
1:41:21 See what has taken place. Your mind then is moving. You follow?
1:41:32 The mind becomes extraordinarily looking, watching, because now you can’t go back to tradition, you are facing this, and you have got to do something.
1:41:51 Right? Let’s stop now. Sorry, I can’t talk any more.