LO65D3 - Time is disorder home
London - 29 April 1965
Public Discussion 3

Text-only version

0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s third public discussion in London, 1965.
0:08 Krishnamurti: We were talking, the last time we met here, about time, and before we go into that, I think I would like to talk about freedom and order first. We seem to think that freedom is a matter of time, growth, evolution, and freedom we are apt to think also that it is a reaction. As we have to live in a society, the problem then is can there be freedom and yet order? And when we look to time to bring order, time invariably breeds disorder. Because our society is not orderly; within it there are all the elements of destruction, violence; the social structure is based on acquisitiveness, competition, ambition, which are all the signs of disorder. 2:19 I think that is… one more or less accepts that as inevitable and lives in that pattern. Freedom within that society cannot be, nor is freedom possible outside that society. If freedom is merely a reaction, then it breeds disorder, as time does. But if we understand freedom, not something that you cultivate, or as a process, a thing to be achieved, then freedom has a quite a different meaning. And to understand this thing or freedom, one must also, it seems to me, understand the nature of time, and we’re going to talk about the physical time and the psychological time.
3:58 I think one has to accept the physical time. We can’t help it. But when we look to psychological time as a means of achieving freedom, or peace, then such time breeds disorder because it is not based on a structure of reality.
4:34 What we are discussing is not a theory, a concept, something with which you can intellectually play with. We are dealing with facts, and the fact is that in a society as it is, freedom means a disorder because freedom is conceived of as a reaction. But when one considers the nature and the structure of time, then perhaps we shall be able to understand what is freedom which is not a reaction, which is not freedom from something. So, we’ll have to go into this question of time.
5:52 There are the two obvious times: the physical time, the chronological time, and the time built, constructed by thought, by the psyche, which is the psychological time. And we are dealing not with the physical time, but the psychological time, whether through psychological time one can have freedom and therefore order. Freedom, let us say, freedom from fear. It seems to me that it’s very important to understand fear and to be totally be free of it, otherwise there can be no order structurally, or outwardly or inwardly. 7:27 So one has to understand the nature of fear and whether it is possible to be free of it immediately, not through the process of time. Free the mind... mind frees itself of fear. We use time as a means of freeing... of... the mind freeing itself from time. That we know. That is, we say that through a process, whether it be analysis, discipline, or understanding, through that, we hope to be free from fear. We use time as a means of ridding ourselves of fear. That’s what we are used to, whether it be a habit, a fear, or the poison of nationalism. 8:49 Is it possible? Is that a fact? Can one be free of fear through time, that is, saying to oneself, ‘I will be free tomorrow’, whether you stretch that tomorrow for many years, or for a second, or for a day – tomorrow, is it possible to be free of fear tomorrow, or is there a different approach to the problem altogether?
9:42 Because fear in any form distorts, breeds illusion, brings about confusion. When a mind is afraid and lives in a state of fear, it is... if you have known fear, you know what happens. It’s a very destructive, it breeds every form of illusion and conflict, and is it possible to be free of fear totally, completely, not tomorrow, but in the now, which is not of time? Can I understand the whole structure and the nature and the significance of fear immediately, and be free of it instantly? 11:31 If one is not, then you depend on time to free... for the mind to free itself from it, and hence, the dependence on time, or the usage of time, only breeds disorder, because fear does breed disorder - whether I’m afraid of my neighbour, or of ideas, or of any form of social, psychological disturbance, does breed fear, and that does bring about disorder. Is it possible to be free of fear, not only consciously, but also at the deeper levels of consciousness? Because without freedom from fear, there is no peace, peace either among people, races, continents, and peace is not possible when the world is divided, not only politically, economically, but also religiously. 13:15 So if one would understand what is peace, not theoretically, not as an idea, something to be pursued, lived up to as an objective, as a directive and so on and on, but actually be, within oneself psychologically, totally be at peace with oneself, which means not having any form of conflict.
14:15 All religions have stated, in various ways, that through time, through the gradual process of evolution, of suppression, control, identification with an... with a something superior and so on and so on, have always maintained that time is necessary - the psychological time we were talking about - and therefore Heaven is very far away, and you can only come to it through various processes and so on. So our question is whether it’s possible to be free of fear immediately, otherwise fear breeds disorder, and time invariably, as one observes, psychologically, does breed extraordinary disorder within oneself. So that is the issue we were going to discuss today.
16:10 I am questioning the whole idea of evolution, not of the physical, but of thought which has identified itself with a particular form of existence in time. I wonder if I’m... The brain obviously has evolved to come to this present state, and it may evolve still further, and more, expand, but as a human being, I live now; I have probably forty or fifty years or more, and I have to live in a world made up of all kinds of theories, conflict, concepts; in a society in which greed, envy, competition has built, wars, and I’m part of all that. And when I look to time, that is, evolve slowly for the next two million years, as a human being, surely that has no significance at all to a man who is in sorrow. 18:33 So is it possible as we are now, constituted as we are, possible to be free from fear? You see, there is the physical time and the psychological time, that’s how we live, and the physical time must exist, you can’t help that, and with the psychological time, bring not only social order, which means order within the individual, because we are part of that society; we’re not separate. So where there is order in a human being, there will inevitably be social order outwardly. So can we go into this question this evening?
20:49 Question: Isn’t the basis of fear inner unconscious demands which are in conflict?
21:10 K: Sir, one can find out fairly easily the cause of a fear or fears through analysis, through observation, through introspective examination - you know? - go into oneself very deeply and find out what’s the cause of fear, conscious or hidden. Will that help to be free of fear? You understand? Discovering the cause, either you’re told or you discover it yourself. If you discover it for yourself, it’s much better than being told. 22:17 Then, your discovery of the cause, will that free the mind from fear? Do look at it... To find out the cause through analysis implies time, doesn’t it? And if I use time as a means of discovering the cause of fear, what have I actually done? Have you ever experimented with yourself when you find out the cause - what has happened?
23:20 Q: (Inaudible).
23:21 Q: Nothing.
23:23 K: Nothing – quite right, nothing.
23:26 Q: A certain kind of discovery about oneself, though, can come as kind of a revelation. It can be very dramatic, not just something one learns.
23:39 K: Yes, it can be very dramatic and all the rest of it, but the fear still remains. Look, sir, let me take... someone dies whom I like, and I feel terribly upset about it, and I call that sorrow, and I know why I’m in sorrow, because I’ve lost a friend. I lost someone whom I liked very much, and I’m lonely, and I’m suddenly bereft of a companion with whom I used to discuss and all the rest of that stuff. Knowing all that, does it free me, free the mind from sorrow?
24:37 Q: (Inaudible).
24:38 K: No, no, please do observe a little more closely.
24:43 Q: But surely what makes one feel sorrow in that, the sorrow that’s so difficult is guilt feelings that one has been so inadequate in one’s relationship.
24:54 K: Yes, inadequate, repentance, all the rest of it.
24:59 Q: If one finds an answer as to why you’re sorry, and you still have the sorrow, then you haven’t found the right answer. What it appears to be is not really what it is.
25:14 K: No, but you see what... No, you are... All right, let’s go through it. I suppose, one must but… we’ll come to it.
25:18 Q: I think… the thinking about it is the thought dwelling on… (inaudible).
25:29 K: Yes sir, that is analysis, we’ll call it, thinking about it, investigating it, repentance, regret, ‘I wish it hadn’t been that way’ – you know? - but at the end of all this long rigmarole and journey and discovery, is one free of fear or sorrow? We have explanations: religious, psychological or factual. Knowing all that, will that bring about freedom from fear?
26:10 Q: But isn’t one free in the moment?
26:16 K: Ah, in the moment one is free when you can look at the fact.
26:19 Q: No, not even look at it, because then... (inaudible).
26:22 K: Be aware of it, it doesn’t... Sir, we have to use words. Be aware of it. You see, I want to get at something, which is... May I go ahead?
26:33 Q: Yes, please.
26:35 Many: (Inaudible).
26:36 K: Ah, that’s it. I go ahead and you will...
26:41 (Laughter)
26:44 K: I feel there is a different way of tackling this problem altogether. There must be a different way. The way we have lived, we have not solved any problem. I mean, the problem of fear, problem of sorrow, problem of anxiety... we still go on living, living in that mess, and I feel there is... if we could approach this whole problem... this whole issue differently, we’ll find a real way out of it. Now, I’ll go into it a little bit.
27:41 I see for myself that mere discovery of the cause of sorrow doesn’t end sorrow. The explanations, the regrets, the thought of, ‘I wish I had treated that friend...’ – you know? – the whole of that doesn’t resolve the... finish my sorrow. Now, what have I done? In examining, in searching for the cause, I have wasted time - right? – I have wasted not only time but energy, and I need energy to meet something which I don’t understand. So I see that time as a process of analysis, investigation of the cause and all the rest of it only breeds disorder, which is waste of energy, so I will not.. 29:07 – I’m talking... – I will not waste my energy in looking for the cause. I know the cause very well: self-pity. So if I push that aside, completely, deny it, reject it totally, the explanation, the cause, the regret, the self-pity, wallowing in self-pity and all the rest of it, I push it aside completely because I see the futility of it. It has no meaning.
30:01 Q: Krishnamurti, in listening I’m trying to understand can I immediately end all fear, all sorrow, and I see that with the mind and the feeling that I possess... (inaudible) I need a different sort of mind and feeling.
30:48 K: Yes sir. Look, sirs, I’d like to convey something; I’d like to tell you something, and to understand what the speaker is saying, you have to listen to him. You have to listen to him, not only to the words, but behind the words, the feeling, the structure, the nature, the significance of what lies behind the word. You have to listen, and to listen you have to be tremendously attentive. Of course you have your own ideas, your own opinions, your own experience; put those aside for the time being; don’t let that intervene and prevent listening, which doesn’t mean you accept what is being said; on the contrary.
32:01 You’re not being mesmerized or made to accept something which is totally alien, but you are just listening to find out. I’m saying, we are saying that perhaps there is a totally different approach to the problem of sorrow or of fear and to find out for yourself, you have not only listen to the speaker, but use the speaker, if I may use that word use, to see the truth of what he is saying, either the truth or the falseness of what he’s saying. He is saying something very simple, which is, one has used time as explanation, as searching for a cause, as an avoidance, and so on, self-pity and all… used time to discover the cause, and thereby hoping to be free from sorrow. 33:27 That’s what we have done, and I say that is not the way to be free from sorrow. You will never be free from sorrow. Do what you will, you’ll never have... you’ll never be. So you have to find out what he means, you have to find out what he wants to say, therefore you have to listen. He says when you are analysing, being introspective, examining cause... that is a waste of time and it is also a waste of energy. To meet the challenge of fear or of sorrow, you have to have all your energy, and therefore you cannot afford to waste your energy by trying to find out what the cause is. 34:59 Is that clear, at least verbally? So if it’s clear, I will not waste one second, one iota of energy on analysis, on self-pity, on any of that. I want to be free from fear. I see what happens if one is afraid. What a dreadful thing it is, how it distorts, how it prevents, how it corrupts, how it creates delusion, and to... and we have a network of escapes, so subtle, and all that is a waste of energy because all that involves time, and time is disorder.
36:37 Now, I’ve said that, we have said that. Is it a fact to you, or merely a verbal understanding? A fact in the sense... this is a fact, the microphone in front of me is a fact, and if I don’t see the microphone and somebody describes to me what the microphone is, what its function is, its structure, then it merely will be a verbal statement, but when I see it directly, it is factual. So I’m asking, myself and yourself, whether it is a verbal statement or a fact. When you are hungry, that’s a fact. Nobody has to tell you that you’re hungry, or describe what hunger is. Unless this is a fact to you, we cannot proceed further. 38:09 Right? Then the fact reveals the structure of disorder in time. You see, because unless one comes to this point, one... it becomes a fact to oneself, one can’t proceed further. It’s fairly obvious, isn’t it? Which means the mind already is in a state of revolution. I don’t know if you... When you... when the mind realizes time breeds disorder, and it is a fact, not a theory, a verbal statement, or an intellectual concept, then that very realisation of that fact is a tremendous revolution because you have denied psychological time. I don’t know if you’re following all this.
39:41 Q: Yes, that’s exactly so. I recognise it but there is one fact again is that I can’t hold it.
39:50 K: Ah...
39:51 Q: (Inaudible).
39:52 K: No, sir, sir, don’t... It isn’t a question of holding it. If you realise it, it is so, not you... You can’t...
40:00 Q: Yes, but... (inaudible) specific conditions... (inaudible)...
40:02 K: Wait, sir; wait, sir.
40:04 Q: ... and I am not in these specific conditions every day.
40:08 K: Oh, no, it has nothing to do with environment.
40:13 Q: I mean... (inaudible).
40:15 K: It has nothing to do with what one is or what one is not. Do we see this fact? Not for the moment. Sir, in your bathroom you have a bottle marked poison, and you know it is poison, and you’re very careful which bottle you pick up in the dark. You’re always watchful. You don’t say, ‘How am I to keep away... how am I to be watchful of that bottle?’ You know it’s poison, so you are tremendously attentive. Right? So time is a poison which creates disorder. If it is a fact to you, then we can proceed into understanding of how to be free of fear immediately. You...? But if you are still holding time as a means of freeing yourself, there is no communication between you and me.
42:03 You see, there is something much more. There may be a totally different kind of time altogether. We only know two time, the two, physical and psychological, and we are caught in this. The physical time plays an important part in the psyche, and the psyche plays an important part on the physical, and so we’re caught in this battle, in these influences. And if we accept time as only physical, which one must, go... catching the bus and the train 43:12 and going... all the rest of it, physical time. Then if you reject psychological time completely, then we may find a something quite different, a time which is not related to either of these two. I wonder if you... I wish you would come on with me. You see, then time is not disorder; then time is tremendous order and structure. That’s a theory, unfortunately, to you, so let’s proceed.
43:57 David Bohm: Sir, in the psychological time I see that my mind has projected forward a future that doesn’t exist. This creates disorder because I respond to what does not exist.
44:08 K: Quite.
44:10 DB: So that... However, this occurs on two levels, the conscious and the unconscious, and it is very hard to penetrate into the unconscious.
44:40 K: Sir, we give tremendous importance, it seems to me, to the unconscious. Freud and company have given us an extraordinary thing, and weighed us down with this terrible thing, but I don’t think it’s important at all. It is such a trivial affair, as the conscious mind is a very trivial affair. But why do we give such significance to the unconscious, and why don’t we give significance to the conscious mind? Because we don’t see that thought itself is insignificant. Oh, come on, sirs.
45:49 Q: Krishnaji, would you mind going through again why it is that a better use of time might not result in freedom?
46:04 K: The gentleman asks is there not a better use of time which will dissolve fear. (Inaudible). Look, sir, you are in sorrow - I’m not wishing you to be in sorrow – and will tomorrow help you to get rid of it?
46:35 Q: Tomorrow it may be gone, often it is.
46:41 K: Ah, which is... or it may not be gone. It generally is not. I mean, don’t... I mean... The idea that it may be gone is just an idea. It’s not a fact.
46:56 Q: That’s true.
46:57 K: Man has lived with sorrow, or deified sorrow. Christians have worshiped sorrow. In India and in the East they explain it away, for they have karma and all the rest of it. Of course, there are... by deifying sorrow or explaining sorrow away is a form of escape. One can take a drug and escape, drink or whatever you like. So is there, you’re asking, is there a right usage of time. Is there right usage of time? Obviously...
47:52 Q: Well, what I mean is that certainly I see that my use of time in the past has been faulty... (inaudible) produced bad results but that may be because I have stupidly used time.
48:17 K: So... no, but, is there a right usage of time, that’s what you are saying. We are asking, is there? What does time mean? Apart from physical time, time by the watch, what does time mean to you, sir?
48:36 Q: Time means a change.
48:39 K: Time means a change and a process. I am in sorrow. I need time to change that thing which I call sorrow through a process, either tomorrow or next moment. Does that take place? When you are hungry, real demand, do you say, ‘Well, I’ll wait until tomorrow’?
49:04 Q: Yes, but there are many other illustrations that show to me that it would work. For example, I may, I see something, I feel a desire. Now, if I don’t do anything about that desire, it passes away, I’m not bothered about having to buy the thing.
49:15 K: Quite. Discuss it, sir; go on.
49:17 Q: So there’s an illustration of the fact that the passage of time results in the disappearance of sorrow because desire, it’s hurting, it’s harmful, it hurts, it’s painful.
49:40 K: So, look what you’re saying. So you are saying that time, which is part of pleasure, can be used to get rid of the non-pleasure.
50:07 Q: Yes... (inaudible).
50:15 K: So time gives you pleasure. That’s what we all want.
50:23 Q: Is not the dream state a state of the mind in which there is no psychological or physical time?
50:37 K: No, sir, dream is something quite... dream is something entirely different. Must we...? All right, sir. Why do we dream at all? I think dreams are a waste of time, a waste of energy – not that I want to tie up everything to time. Why do we dream? It is fairly obvious, isn’t it? We are so terribly occupied all day long, conscious mind – office, quarrels - you know? - what we are during the conscious, waking hours and when you one go to sleep the conscious mind is somewhat less active, and the so-called unconscious projects all its intimations there through dreams, and that’s very simple. We don’t have to glorify dreams; and we then get the interpreters of dreams a- you know? - all the rest of it. (Inaudible).
51:53 (Laughter)
51:57 K: So can... if I am awake all day, watching everything, watching the way I walk, talk, dress, think, my relationships to people, to nature, to watch everything all day, to inattention, attention, all that thing hidden below, the so-called unconscious comes up, and you don’t have to dream at all. You can experiment with this; this is so clear and simple. On no, please, sir, let’s come back.
52:42 Q: Can you point out to me why, per se, time can never solve sorrow? I see... (inaudible).
52:48 K: Oh my God. Per se? I’ve been showing this.
52:51 Q: That’s why I said please go through it again.
52:59 Q: (Inaudible).
53:02 K: Look, sir. I lose my son; I’m afraid of what people will say about me - those are the two things, and I’ve lost my son; I observe. I see I am bereft of something which I’ve relied upon. Look what is happening to my mind – I’m investigating. And I say I’ve lost a companion, I’ve lost a son in whom I have invested so much – sorry – invested money and also my hopes, fears, longings... immortalized myself in him, and so on and so on. I wallow in self-pity and regrets and all that. Now, that has taken time. It has taken a day, a year, whatever it is, taken time. When you have taken time, other influences, other strains have come into being. 54:26 It is not just one continuous explanation... a discovery, there are other things interfering. Surely this is simple. Because the cause never brings about the right effect. When there is a cause and effect, there’s a time interval. In that time interval there are all kinds of stresses and strains, therefore the effect is changed, and what was effect becomes the cause. So you know that, series of change, so there is never a precise cause and a precise effect, so mere investigation of cause which has produced my sorrow is a waste of time.
55:29 Q: Right, that’s clear.
55:32 K: Right. Now, and the next question is, if it is clear, is it a verbal clarity or a factual clarity?
55:37 Q: In the particular illustration that you give, it’s obviously a factual clarity, but…
55:44 K: Ah, ah, ah, no. So you are no longer depending on time.
55:56 Q: Yes, but I say to myself if I were aware in a more efficient fashion over a period of time, then... (inaudible).
56:08 K: You cannot be aware through a period of time. Then it becomes mechanical. Sir, look, I come into the room, and I see the colours, the colours of various dresses, the door, the windows, the shape of the room, disproportion, light, and all that. I see it immediately, and I’m aware of my reactions to that and I am aware of how those reactions arise, my conditioning, classical or Victorian or Hindu, whatever it is.
56:48 Q: Yes, you are aware, but I am not… (inaudible).
56:52 K: Ah, no, no, no. I am saying this... you... if you proceed that way, you discover, don’t you? Coming into the room, looking, and taking time to discover your reactions, your conditioning and so on and so on and so on. That has taken time. And when you have taken time, there are other factors involved in it, not just one thing, and that is a waste of time.
57:31 Q: All right, I see that.
57:33 K: Got it?
57:34 Q: Yes.
57:35 K: Now, is that a fact that you are no longer using time as a means to be aware, as a means to be rid of fear or sorrow?
57:52 Q: Doesn’t time comes in only when one starts thinking of oneself?
58:00 K: No, please, that is not the... You don’t... Please see... You are introducing... All right, I say yes, of course, then what are you going to do about it? Again investigate how to get rid of that thought which thinks about itself? No, don’t you see…? So if it is a fact, as it must be to... (inaudible) for God’s sake.
58:40 (Laughter)
58:42 K: Then we can proceed.
58:45 Fact, not an idea, not words, not an intellectual concept, a theory, something that is real like that. Then what has happened? Then there is no time at all through which I am going to be rid of something. Right? And I know there is fear. I am afraid what public opinion, of death, of... – you know? – fear, darkness, or grandmother and all the rest of it, and I also m aware that I’m in sorrow, so I have to meet it without time. 59:49 Right? That means I have to meet it with all the energy I have. I have the energy now - you understand? – not... before I hadn’t it, because time I used as a means of escape, as a means of disorder, it brought disorder, because the fact is sorrow, and I’m introducing other factors which have no value at all. The other factors are mere escapes from this one fact. (Inaudible)?
1:00:41 Q: Yes.
1:00:43 K: So when I reject time, not as an idea, a concept, as something I must do in order to get rid of fear, which is too childish, absurd; when I really reject time, then I have energy to meet this thing, and all this requires enormous sanity. So I’m afraid, and I’m not looking any more to time as a means of dissolving that fear. Right? I have to meet it. Now, how do I meet it? Because all escapes, explanations, causes, how to get over it, restraint, suppression, control, all that has gone. Right? All that implies time and waste of energy. Surely this is obvious, isn’t it? At least verbally; let’s go on. Then how do I meet it?
1:02:07 Q: If all that has gone, surely the fear itself has gone.
1:02:13 K: Ah, don’t come to that too... because if you go into it, you will see something else taking place.
1:02:19 Q: Since I don’t know how to do that, then... (inaudible).
1:02:27 K: It means you haven’t...
1:02:28 Q: Then all... (inaudible).
1:02:29 K: Then it means that you have not rid yourself of the concept of time as thought and the concept of time as thought is pleasure, and so you are... you want pleasure, and you continue that pleasure in different forms, and therefore you’re not rid of time. You have never considered pleasure.
1:03:01 Q: You have to meet it directly.
1:03:07 K: Directly?
1:03:08 Q: Yes.
1:03:09 K: That means to meet it directly you have to know... you have to understand the structure and the nature of pleasure, because that’s what we want.
1:03:20 DB: It does seem that when time is denied, there is some movement of pleasure, a very intense pleasure.
1:03:29 K: Of course, sir. That’s what I’m trying to put a stop to, also.
1:03:31 DB: And it seems to me... (inaudible) of all pleasure...
1:03:33 K: That’s what we are looking; that’s what we want. We want pleasure; we want the continuation of pleasure, not the understanding of sorrow, not the understanding of fear or time. We use time as a means of continuing pleasure and avoiding sorrow; that’s all we are concerned with. Sir, look what happens. One has an experience of pleasure - a lovely sunset, a beautiful tree, a seeing a beautiful face, and there’s a tremendous pleasure, and you want that to be repeated. The repetition is time, not the instant of pleasure. Oh, for God’s sake... (inaudible).
1:04:30 Q: It’s a very difficult point because if one feels fear or pain or sorrow, then the mind is pulled away from it by all these influences; and if you reject time, then you think, you pull the mind... (inaudible).
1:04:57 K: No, no. You see, I told you very carefully, when you reject time, you reject it because it is a fact, not... You cannot be pulled towards a precipice, because you know it’s a precipice. You are never pulled towards it. It’s only when your pleasure comes in looking at that precipice, then you’re pulled towards it.
1:05:24 Q: Are you then saying that rejecting time...
1:05:31 K: Is rejecting pleasure.
1:05:33 Q: ... is a return to pleasure? Rejecting this concept is a return to pleasure?
1:05:42 K: No, on the contrary. The questioner says: Rejecting this concept of time, does it mean return to pleasure. On the contrary, time is the invention of thought as pleasure.
1:06:07 Q: No, I don’t mean thought. I mean as an experience.
1:06:11 K: Sir, I... No... You have to understand pleasure. All right, let’s go into it. What do we want? Really, what do all of us want, if you are...?
1:06:24 Q: We want to be happy.
1:06:26 K: We want to be happy. Happiness is pleasure, a continuation of pleasure, a repetition of something which is pleasurable: sexual, an image, an experience, an idea – you know? - pleasure. Don’t we all...?
1:06:47 Q: We want freedom.
1:06:50 K: No sir.
1:06:52 (Laughter)
1:06:54 Q: I mean freedom from... If one thinks of happiness, one automatically thinks of unhappiness.
1:07:04 K: Freedom is freedom not from something; just freedom.
1:07:07 Q: Just freedom.
1:07:08 K: If you are free from something, are you free?
1:07:13 Q: No.
1:07:14 K: Oh, no, please... Let’s come to... because we have so little time, that’s what I... I’m not, please, impatient or anything of that kind, but you’re missing so much by just going back and back.
1:07:29 Q: Carry on without the interruptions, sir.
1:07:34 Many: Yes.
1:07:35 K: Sir, it’s no good my carrying on because, after all, we want to communicate with each other. Verbal communication is no communication at all. There is communication when we are dealing with fact, which is real communication. When you hate me, you are in communion with me.
1:08:02 (Laughter)
1:08:04 K: Or when I love you, we are in communion; but if you are indifferent, and I’m something else, we have no communion. So, look at it, sirs. As we said at the beginning, time breeds disorder. You can see what is happening in the world. There is starvation going on in India and Asia, unemployment…. terrible things are going on in the East, not mere wars. And science can feed man, clothe man, shelter man, but it cannot do it because of this poison of nationalism, politicians and their ideas, their concepts, belonging to this party, that party, and so the whole of East starves. 1:09:08 So they say, ‘Well, we must go through nationalism, through our particular party,’ and all the rest of it, in the meantime people suffer. So we can see time does breed disorder, not only politically, but inwardly. So I see that. I see for myself as a fact that time has, as it breeds disorder, and man must live in order, otherwise we create illusion, we live in despair. So I see that as a fact, therefore time has gone for me, for a man who sees that. I’m not a national, belonging to a party, Catholic, Protestant... – all that nonsense 1:10:09 goes out of one. So I... now I have the energy to meet the fact which is fear – right? - and I have the energy to meet it because I’ve understood pleasure. Because most of us want pleasure, the continuation of pleasure And the continuation of pleasure is time, isn’t it? Obviously.
1:10:53 Q: Yes.
1:10:54 K: And when man seeks pleasure, nothing else, it does breed disorder. Oh, sirs...
1:11:02 Q: Yes, we see that.
1:11:05 K: He doesn’t want truth, God, all that sheer nonsense. He just wants one thing. If it is not sexual pleasure, it is some other form of pleasure. If one gets fed up with different kinds of pleasures as one grows older, and then eventually God or something else.
1:11:29 (Laughter)
1:11:31 K: No, it becomes too infantile, the whole thing.
1:11:34 So one has to understand this extraordinary drive of pleasure, and when you understand that, you also understand the nature of time which gives it duration as thought. This is all so simple, sirs, simple, when you have really seen the truth of the nature of time. If you do, then what takes place? You understand? You’re no longer shaped by time or pleasure as a principle. You...?
1:12:37 Q: Yes.
1:12:38 K: Out. Therefore you can look at the fact, not in terms of pleasure and pain and therefore time. Right?
1:12:49 Many: Yes.
1:12:50 K: So what happens? When you meet a fact completely, as a whole, silently. You meet the fact with peace, which is not pleasure. You know, when you meet something totally, with... peace, with... Peace is affection, isn’t it?
1:13:30 Q: Yes.
1:13:31 K: Don’t agree, please. Do it. Peace is never... has no pleasure in it. That’s the most beautiful thing about peace. And when time has been rejected, then you have energy to meet the fact, which means the mind has undergone a revolution and therefore is meeting something at a totally different dimension. I don’t know if you are...
1:14:41 Many: Yes.
1:14:42 K: I have only known pleasure, and the continuation of pleasure as time, as thought, and I’ve only known this conflict which is disorder – that’s all we have known. We try to escape from it, mesmerize ourselves into all kinds of activities and all that, but that’s the only thing we know. And I see that and I reject it completely. Then my mind is not swayed by pleasure – oh, sirs... – therefore it is at a tremendous energy which is peaceful, and therefore it has no conflict, and it can meet fear.
1:15:41 Now, how do you meet fear? That’s what I want to... (inaudible). You understand? We generally meet fear by escaping from it, therefore we never meet it. We escape it through verbalisation, through innumerable networks which man has developed through centuries. We know all this: gods, drinks, sex, amusement, literature, painting, art, anything but the fact. So when you stop all that, mind becomes extraordinarily alert and very quiet. 1:16:50 And it cannot be quiet when it is always, everlastingly seeking different ways of pleasure. I’m not... please don’t misunderstand – pleasure is a lovely thing – you understand? - to laugh, to look at something beautiful is a lovely thing, but to get... to derive pleasure from it, and the insistence that it must continue - that is where the disorder comes in. (Inaudible).
1:17:40 So when you have rejected time, not out of reaction, but because you realise that it creates disorder based on the principle of pleasure, then you have the energy to meet the fact. Then there is no distortion. You follow? There is no... the pleasure which creates illusion and distortion has come to an end, therefore it can meet.
1:18:42 (Pause) It’s one of the most difficult things, I think, to understand – I mean by the word understand, understand not verbally - the whole principle or the structure of pleasure. Not the second when you see something beautiful – you know? - when you’re highly sensitive, your body, your whole being is sensitive, your nerves, your eyes, your ears, your... everything is sensitive, which is another... which is really a form of intelligence, when you’re so sensitive, the mere seeing of something very beautiful or very ugly, is a moment of pleasure, but it’s finished. I don’t know if you have gone...
1:20:44 Q: Yes.
1:20:45 K: It has no continuity. Moment it has continuity, one becomes insensitive, and being insensitive, there is disorder. (Pause) You understand? What takes place... I’d better stop because... I’ll just finish this. What takes place when you reject time and the principle of pleasure and its continuity that the mind is completely still, also the brain is completely still, and this stillness, this quietness, this intensity is the outcome of the fact which one has seen, and therefore there is no effort involved in it at all. There is effort when there is pleasure. So if one has really grasped this, you have stepped... the mind has stepped out of this 1:22:59 rut of time-pleasure principle and therefore it’s no longer looking to time as a means of evolution, of its getting rid or achieving. Right? And so when there is the death of my... of someone, the mind meets that challenge, that incident, without any movement, which doesn’t mean lack of sympathy and... You follow? It has... without any movement, because the thing, death is too vast, immense thing to understand by a puny little mind, and you can only meet something that’s immense when the mind is quiet. I think we’d better stop, don’t you?
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