RV79DS3 - Can you be free of the image? home
Rishi Valley, India - 21 November 1979
Discussion with Students 3

Text-only version

0:23 Krishnamurti: If I may, I will talk for about half an hour, and I hope you will be good enough to ask any questions you want. Is that all right? Do you approve of that?
0:42 Students: Yes, sir.
0:48 K: You will approve of anything, won't you? Have you ever driven a car? If you have driven a car, have you noticed that you are watching at least 100 metres or more in front of you, and your eye, as you drive, is taking everything in, all the things that are happening on the side. Right? Watching, if any traffic comes that way or the other way. So, you will find that your eye is quicker than your thought. Have you gone into that? Probably you haven't gone into any of this. 2:00 So please listen, try to learn something that you haven't heard before, or probably you have. If you have, forget what you have learned and try to listen and learn – not memorize, but learn – which is, that your eye, seeing this plant, people, is quicker than your mind, than your thought. Experiment now, as you are sitting there, look at those trees. Do look at it. And your eye sees much quicker than your mind. Your mind, when it sees that, gives it a word, calls that a tree, calls that green, red. 3:01 You follow this? That your eye is quicker than your thought. Now, to synchronize the eye and the thought together, is attention. Have you understood this? That is, when you see something like the tree, like your friend, or that camera, your eye focuses on it quickly, then your mind gives it a word – that is a camera, that is Mr so and so. So your eye is quicker than your mind, and when the mind and the eye synchronize, come together at the same time, immediately, then you will find there is an extraordinary quality of attention. 4:26 Are you doing this as a I am talking? No, you are not. Are you doing it? Will you do it? Don't look at me. Look at that tree, look at those flowers, and the telegraph wire, look at it. And as you look, your mind is giving it a word, saying that is a telegraph wire, that is green, that is red. So your eye sees first, then your mind operates. Now, I am saying bring the two together, instantly. Then you will see the whole thing. Do you understand what I am talking? 5:24 Are you doing it, or you are looking at me? So your mind, – you understand what I mean by mind, the quality of your thinking – is slower than what the eye sees. When the eye and the thought come together at the same moment, you will find that there is a peculiar quality of attention. Have you understood this, any of you?
6:08 K: Right?
6:09 S: Yes.
6:10 K: So your mind is trained to act slower than the eye, the visual eye, the optic nerves are much quicker than the mind that moves. And the mind, your mind, – which is, the quality of thinking – is full of words. Right? Have you noticed that? Is this too difficult? That is, your mind has been trained for centuries upon centuries to think in words or in images, in pictures or in symbols. Asitji, come with me. I must talk to somebody. They all look so weird down there. And words become extraordinarily important. Like the word India is very important to you, because you have lived here and the propaganda has been going on, and you say you are an Indian. 8:01 So the word, like the British, like the French, the German, the Russian, the Chinese, the American, words become extraordinarily important. When you say he is an Indian, what happens? You are generalising and not looking at the individual. My God. Do you follow all this? When you go to France and if you live there, you see the word 'Frenchman', Francais, is tremendously important to him. He identifies himself with the whole of the country and in this identification he feels secure, which you are doing when you say I am an Indian, I am a Hindu, I am a Muslim. You are following this?
9:22 So, the word has become more important than the fact. I wonder if you see that. So can you look at that tree – listen carefully – can you look at that tree without the word? Go on, look. Look at it and find out what immediately takes place as a response. You look at those flowers and immediately the word 'red' comes into your mind. Now, can you look at those flowers without the word? Are you doing it? So, the mind, which is the whole movement of thought, is clothed in words. 10:37 Right? So we are going to enquire this morning, what is thinking. I have led you carefully up to this point, which is, first, when you are driving or when somebody drives you in a car, you are watching, and you are watching 100 or 200 metres ahead of you. The eye sees both sides much quicker than the mind. The eye sees left and right, whether there is a traffic on this side or on that side and slows down, or if there is no traffic, goes on. 11:28 But it is the eye that is much more quick than thought. Right? Have you understood that? Have you experimented – do it now as I am talking. Then when the mind and the eye come together instantly, at the same time, immediately, you will have an extraordinary quality of attention. That is one point. And most of our minds have become accustomed to words.
12:20 Words are much more important than the reality, what is actually happening. Now, thought is the movement of words, a movement of symbols – you know what a symbol is. Do you? Representing something which is, which is, may be true or may not be true. Or representing an image. Thought is the word, the symbol, the picture, the image. Have you understood so far? Probably nobody has talked to you like this before, so take a little trouble and find out what the speaker is saying.
13:31 So we are going to enquire together, you and
13:34 I: what is thinking? Because you are all thinking, aren't you? When you go to a class and there you are learning mathematics, or geography or whatever it is, physics, you are accumulating knowledge. Right? If you want to be an engineer or a scientist, you have to know certain facts. So thought is the movement – you understand what movement is? movement, moving – is a movement in words, in ideas, in pictures. Right? And so we are asking, what is thinking. Now, just a minute. The whole world, the world in which we live, the things we do, the buildings that we have put up, the temples that have been erected, all the marvellous mosques, churches, cathedrals, are put together by thought. 15:17 You follow this? The engine that drives the train is put together by thought. The motor car is put together by thought. So, the world all around you, all the actions, all the buildings, all the architecture, all the engineering, the extraordinary accumulation of scientific knowledge, is – what did I say?
15:58 S: The movement of thought.
16:02 K: Yes, is the movement of thought. The tree is not made by thought, is it? Do you see the difference? This lamp is made by thought, but the tree is not made by thought. But thought can use the tree into making a chair. Right? You are getting this? So, thought is the movement of knowledge. That is, you have accumulated knowledge as an engineer, as a violinist, as a singer, or whatever you are doing, you have accumulated knowledge, and from that knowledge you act. Right? She's having a good time. Let her. So, thought – please listen – thought is the response of knowledge. 17:33 That is you have learned science, engineering, mathematics, and you have accumulated that knowledge, and from that knowledge you act. So knowledge is the result of experience, not only your experience, but thousands and thousands of years of human experience, accumulated in the brain which stores knowledge, and from that knowledge, you think. Wait, I said let me talk first, and then you ask questions. So, knowledge is always limited. You follow that? Whether it is the knowledge of the Upanishads, all the so-called sacred books, the knowledge which scientists have accumulated or the knowledge which the biologists, the mathematicians, the engineering, knowledge is always limited, because you have not complete knowledge. 19:01 So – listen carefully – so knowledge always has the shadow of ignorance. Have you understood it? So knowledge can never be complete. So thinking is never complete. You have understood this? That is, you have thought, that thought is the result of your knowledge, response, thought is the response from that knowledge and that knowledge is always limited, whether it is Einstein or Doctor... our friend, what is his name?
20:03 G. Narayan: Dr Bohm.
20:05 K: Dr Bohm.
20:06 K: I am glad he is not here. I have told him this, so it is all right. So knowledge is always limited. So thought is limited. See that.
20:22 S: How is knowledge limited?
20:25 K: Wait, sir. I said please, have the courtesy to listen first and then ask questions afterwards. So, thought – which has created the gods, the rituals, all the things that go on in cathedrals, in churches, in mosques, in your business, at home – is always limited, is not complete. Do you see that? So thinking is limited. And a man who says, my ideas are complete, he is talking nonsense. You understand? Now, wait, I will go into it a little further. Have you enquired, have you looked into, what is idea? 21:43 You understand? An idea. That is, you observe something and after observing you conclude from your observation and make that into an idea. The word idea comes from Greek, which means to observe. Are you following this? Observe, see, but not conclude from seeing an abstraction called an idea. I wonder if they understand all this. So your gods, your rituals, your gurus, your books, all those are based on ideas, on thought, therefore they are always limited, therefore they are not holy. Right? 23:04 The things that are in the temple are put there by thought. Therefore as thought is limited, the very image is limited. So anything that is limited is a fragment, and if you act from that fragment your actions will always be limited. And when they are limited, you have pain, you have suffering, you are anxious, you are frightened. So, find out if your mind can put thought in its place – which is limited – and see what happens. It is too difficult for them.
24:31 S: Do you tell us to observe, sir?
24:34 S: Do you mean to tell us: observe?
24:36 K: Yes.
24:38 K: I have talked for half an hour, now you tell me, ask questions. No?
25:08 S: Could you explain how knowledge is limited?
25:16 GN: How is knowledge limited.
25:18 K: How is knowledge limited.
25:21 GN: I think probably along with that, they may have difficulty, how is thought an abstraction?
25:40 K: There is no engineer who knows all about engineering, is there? There is no scientist who says, I have understood the universe. Right? There is no philosopher who says, I have solved all the human problem. So, as a scientist, he is always accumulating knowledge, more and more and more. So knowledge is never complete. So knowledge always goes with ignorance. Got it? Have you understood this? So what is knowledge?
26:44 S: Knowledge is a fragment.
26:47 K: No, what is knowledge? To know. Now, wait a minute. Do you know your sister, if you have a sister? You say yes, I know her. What do you mean by knowing your sister – knowing. What do you mean by that?
27:13 S: I know what she looks like, I know her name.
27:19 K: How she looks like, what she says, but you don't know her, do you? You know the appearance, but you don't know what she thinks, what she feels. So you can never say I know somebody. You understand what I am saying? You have seen Mr Narayan for the last two years. Can you say you know him?
27:58 S: No, I don't think so.
28:01 K: No. Look at it carefully, examine it carefully. You have seen him, you have seen him walking – the way he walks, the way he sings, the way he teaches you, but you don't know Narayan. You understand? So knowledge is limited. Got it? And when you are acting from knowledge, your action is limited. No wait, follow the next step. When it is limited, it must bring regret, sorrow, pain, grief and so on. You have understood that?
28:53 S: How?
28:56 GN: How does it bring sorrow, pain.
28:57 S: When the knowledge is limited, how do we suffer?
29:02 S: How do we suffer when the knowledge is limited?
29:11 K: Phew! I will tell you. Will you listen carefully? Sit up properly. When you are listening, you are paying attention, aren't you? And so you sit properly. You are asking, how does knowledge which is limited, bring sorrow. You do something from that knowledge, and that knowledge is limited, small. What happens when you do something from a very limited knowledge?
30:06 S: We are not able to do it fully.
30:12 K: Which means what? Go on, use your mind, brain.
30:27 S: It remains incompleted.
30:32 K: Which means what? Go on, push. If you do something that is not complete, what happens? I will give you an example, but before I give you an example, think it out. Because examples are a very easy way out. It prevents you from thinking.
30:57 S: If you do something incompletely there is a sense of dissatisfaction. A sense of dissatisfaction.
31:04 K: Who is saying this, I can't hear.
31:06 S: A sense of dissatisfaction.
31:08 K: Yes. Now, what happens when you are dissatisfied?
31:11 K: You are unhappy, aren't you?
31:14 S: Yes.
31:17 S: It creates a challenge.
31:20 S: Creates a challenge.
31:24 GN: She is saying, it leads to dissatisfaction. He is saying, it creates a further challenge.
31:30 K: It acts as a challenge.
31:34 GN: Yes.
31:37 K: Now, you are saying it acts as a challenge, so let's hold on a minute. The other person says, it brings you dissatisfaction. Now, wait. Why are you dissatisfied? When you say it brings dissatisfaction, what do you mean by that? Go on.
32:07 S: We are not happy with our work. We are not satisfied.
32:16 S: We are not happy...
32:20 K: Go on, old boy. You want satisfaction, and what you are doing from limited knowledge brings dissatisfaction. Now, when there is dissatisfaction, what takes place?
32:44 S: We suffer.
32:47 K: You suffer. Go on. Go into it more.
32:51 S: You are unhappy.
32:54 K: You are unhappy. And what else?
33:00 S: You can't complete what you want to do.
33:04 K: That is right. You see, all those grown-up people don't talk at all.
33:14 S: And the feeling tells you that you must not do that work again. The feeling you have from unsatisfactory work tells you that you must not do that work again.
33:25 K: You come out here.
33:33 GN: He is from Bangalore.
33:39 K: What were you saying?
33:42 S: The feeling that you have done an unsatisfactory work tells you that you must not do that work again and you hate the work.
33:51 K: Which means what? He is saying, you are unsatisfied and you regret, right? Then what does that mean? You are unhappy, you are in sorrow, you say, I wish I hadn't done that. So, when you are doing something which is not complete, it inevitably brings sorrow, pain. You have understood this?
34:28 S: Yes, sir.
34:30 K: Good. And the other fellow says, challenge. Now what do you mean by that word?
34:42 S: You want to complete it.
34:44 K: What?
34:45 GN: He would like to complete the work.
34:52 K: Now, wait a minute. You have said something to your friend, out of annoyance, out of anger, how can you complete that? Go on, sir. You call me a fool when you are angry. How can you completely wipe out from me the feeling that you have hurt me? You understand my question? By calling me a fool, you have hurt me, haven't you?
35:45 S: Yes.
35:47 K: And how can you wipe it out?
35:57 S: I can apologise.
35:59 K: You can apologise.
36:01 S: But that wouldn't wipe out the hurt.
36:03 K: So you say, that will not wipe out the hurt.
36:07 S: Yes, because you still feel it.
36:09 K: You still feel it. So what shall I do? Wait, think it out. You have hurt me by calling me a fool, and you apologise, but all the same you have hurt me. Now, the question then is – you have done your duty, you have apologised, I am awfully sorry, but you have hurt me, I have been hurt – what shall I do with that hurt?
36:44 S: If the other person is sensitive, then you can assure him that you won't hurt another person like him again, and so that he will get the satisfaction.
36:55 K: Come over here.
37:05 S: If the other person is sensitive, and if you can assure him that you won't do it again, that is, you won't hurt another person like that person, then he may get the mental satisfaction that that person has improved by making this mistake and he therefore will not commit this mistake again.
37:25 K: She might not commit the mistake again, but she has hurt me. I have that hurt. She might say I won't hurt another, but she has hurt me. What shall I do with that hurt? You understand my question? You have understood my question? What shall I do?
37:56 S: Try and wipe it out. You can't do anything else.
37:59 K: Try and wipe it out. You can't do anything else. How shall I wipe it out? Pay attention to this, because you are all hurt, aren't you? All of you from childhood are hurt, not physically, but inwardly. So what shall we do to be free of the hurt?
38:29 S: You won't think about it, you won't think about the hurt, and think of why the other person has hurt you, what made the other person hurt you.
38:37 K: Yes, you ask what made the other person talk to you that way, and so hurt you. The other person was angry because he didn't sleep properly, because somebody else called him a fool. So he takes it out of you, and so on. I am not asking that at all. You are missing my point. I am asking you, what will you do if you are hurt?
39:10 S: Find out why you are hurt.
39:12 K: Yes, right. Why am I hurt?
39:18 S: Because you have an image of yourself, and that image is hurt.
39:23 S: Because you have an image of yourself.
39:25 S: And that image is hurt.
39:28 K: Wait a minute. You have an image of yourself. Did you think this out or somebody told you?
39:37 S: I thought it out.
39:38 K: What?
39:39 GN: He says he thought it out.
39:40 K: Bravo! Come over here. Are you also from Bangalore? S: No, sir.
39:57
39:57 S: No, sir. GN: He is here.
39:59 K: He is here. Now, how did you think that out? Slowly, slowly.
40:07 S: Because I experienced it myself.
40:11 S: I got hurt once, I was thinking why I got hurt. And at a position I thought that the image what I had, that got hurt, not actually me.
40:24 K: Quite right. Have you heard this? That is, he says he was hurt once, and he said why am I hurt and thinking about it, watching, he found out he had an image about himself and that image was hurt. Now, just a minute. Have you understood this? Have you images about yourself?
40:54 S: Yes, sir.
40:57 K: Yes.
40:59 K: So as long as you have an image about yourself, somebody is going to hurt you.
41:07 S: Yes, sir.
41:09 K: Right?
41:11 K: Have you understood this? The next questions is, is it possible not to have an image about yourself.
41:25 S: Yes, sir. It is possible. Accept the fact. Suppose somebody hurts you, and if it is true, you accept it, finished.
41:38 K: Accept what?
41:41 S: Accept the fact.
41:43 K: Accept the fact that you are hurt.
41:46 S: I mean, you won't be hurt if you don't have an image.
41:48 K: So, have you an image about yourself? Careful, think it out. Don't answer it quickly. Have you an image about yourself? They all said they have.
42:05 S: I think I have, sir.
42:08 K: Why have you an image? I am asking you too, old boy. Why have you an image?
42:19 S: You have an image because another person tells you that you are a great person, and so you form an image about yourself that you are great, because the other person is calling you great.
42:29 K: So somebody tells you you are a fool, you have an image about yourself?
42:36 S: You form an image about what you like.
42:39 K: No, sir, listen carefully.
42:44 S: I think it has been put down by society that this should be done and that is the image which you have. And somebody calls you a fool, you get hurt. The society has put it down that you should not be a fool.
42:57 K: So society helps you to have an image.
43:02 S: We are part of the society.
43:04 K: Your parents help you to have an image, your brother tells you to have an image, So all the people around you help you to have an image. And you yourself have an image. So, why do you have an image? Careful, think it out carefully. Go on, sir, all of you, why do you have an image?
43:35 S: Something which you can hide behind.
43:40 K: Something behind which you can hide. Who is something that is hiding behind the image?
43:48 S: Me.
43:50 K: Me. What is that me? What is that me which is hiding behind the image?
44:08 S: The body and mind.
44:13 K: Wait. So you are saying the body is behind the image, and the mind.
44:27 S: I think the image is yourself.
44:30 K: That is right. So there is no hiding behind the image, because the 'me' is the image.
44:39 K: Have you got it?
44:42 S: Yes, sir.
44:46 K: So as long as you have an image, it is going to be hurt. Now, how can you be free of the image? See, as long as you have an image, you are going to be hurt. Now, next question is, is it possible not to have an image.
45:13 S: If you watch your image. If you are aware that it is building up, then it will never build up at all.
45:19 K: All right. Are you aware of it? Or you are just throwing words. Are you aware that you are building up an image?
45:32 S: Yes, sir.
45:33 K: Then that image is going to be hurt, so you will say, I am hurt. And not to be hurt, is it possible not to gather an image.
45:50 S: It is possible, sir.
45:51 K: Why do you say it is possible?
45:53 S: Because it has happened to me, that is why it is possible. For one case, it has happened to me. That is why it is possible.
45:59 K: Good, in one moment it happened to you.
46:02 S: Yes. Not one moment, for one particular case.
46:05 K: In one particular case when somebody said you are an idiot, you weren't hurt.
46:14 S: Yes, sir.
46:15 K: Right. But you are not free of the image.
46:20 S: Not fully.
46:23 K: No, don't say fully, because either you are, or you are not.
46:29 S: It means you have to be that, because suppose somebody hurts me by saying that, you are short, or something like that. If you don't have the image, I don't have the image, so I am no longer hurt.
46:52 K: I understand. But how will you not have an image about yourself. Somebody calls you short because he is tall.
47:05 S: You see. That is all.
47:07 K: No.
47:09 K: Think carefully. You have an image about yourself as being short. And as long as you have an image of being short, you are going to be hurt. So how will you not have an image?
47:29 S: When you know that you are short and when you know it is a fact, accept the fact and forget about it.
47:38 K: Careful. You have said something, which is, accept the fact.
47:44 S: If you are short.
47:45 K: You are short.
47:47 S: Yes, sir, I am short.
47:52 K: So you accept the fact, not the image. No, see the difference. The image is put together by thought, by society, by your parents. So the image is not the fact.
48:18 S: But if you are really short and if a person who is taller than you comes and says that you are shorter than me, and if you are really shorter than that person, then you will naturally have to accept that you are shorter.
48:31 K: That is all.
48:35 S: It is not always the image that would hurt you. Not because somebody says something to you, it is not the image that gets hurt. Taking the example of height: a person who is short, suppose I was to go and tell a person who is short, you are short, the person knows he is short, he has accepted it, he doesn't have an image that he is tall, but still he gets hurt.
48:58 K: Do you?
48:59 S: Not me, sir. No longer.
49:01 S: No, not him. Some other person, it could be me. I may be a dunce in the classroom, and I accept the fact, but if somebody comes and tells me, you are a dunce, then it hurts me.
49:12 K: Which means what?
49:15 S: I have accepted the fact that I am a dunce.
49:17 K: No, you have not accepted the fact.
49:23 S: You know that you are a dunce, you have accepted the fact.
49:25 K: You think you have accepted the fact. If I say you are a fool, you may be a fool, you may accept it, but you still get hurt.
49:38 S: Yes.
49:39 K: Why?
49:40 S: Because I don't want to be a fool.
49:43 K: Which means you have an image about yourself.
49:50 S: No, sir, but it is different. You don't want to be a fool. You are a fool, but you don't want to be a fool. You don't think you are not a fool. You don't want to be.
49:59 K: No, I am saying, somebody calls me a fool, I listen, and if I have no image about myself, it doesn't matter. But as long as I have an image I will get hurt. Isn't that so, Ravi?
50:30 S: I don't think so. No, I don't think you are right.
50:32 K: Then old boy, you haven't listened to what I said. As long as I have an image, whether it is a small image, big image, worldwide image and so on, as long as I have that, I shall be hurt.
50:53 S: Doesn't that involve conditioning?
51:04 K: Yes, sir.
51:07 S: But then, since childhood you are conditioned.
51:11 K: Wait, that is quite right. Since childhood you are conditioned. Which means what?
51:19 S: That means your parents have been telling you something, your society has been telling you something.
51:23 K: That is right. I don't tell you anything. So society, your parents, your grandmother, your grandfather, your friends, condition you. What does that mean? What do you mean by conditioning?
51:49 S: You develop a kind of importance to yourself. You develop an image through your relations.
51:55 S: He is saying that you develop a sort of importance to yourself.
51:59 K: Yes. Your condition means you are an Indian, you are a Brahmin or a non-Brahmin, you must go to the temple, you must become an engineer, you are not as good as your brother or your sister, but you are better than your younger brother and so on. Gradually your parents, your society, your environment, shapes your mind. Right? Don't sit down. Whoever said that, keep thinking it out. So your parents have conditioned you. Right? Now, will you be free of that conditioning, and not fall into another conditioning?
52:53 S: Only by looking at the reality.
53:02 K: At the reality of what?
53:07 S: Of whatever you are.
53:10 K: Go on. You are perfectly right. Go on explaining more.
53:14 GN: She says, the reality of what you are.
53:17 K: The reality of what you are. What are you? Think it out.
53:27 S: You are your image.
53:33 S: He says you are your image.
53:39 K: My image?
53:42 S: You are your image.
53:45 K: Quite right. You are your image. Quite right. Where is that chap? Oh, there you are. There are too many. Do you want to come and sit here? So you haven't answered my question. You have an image about yourself and as long as you have an image you are going to be hurt. Now, how are you going to be free of that image?
54:21 S: Start again. If it is possible, start again right from the beginning.
54:27 S: If it is possible, start again right from the beginning.
54:30 K: How can you start right from the beginning if you have an image?
54:40 S: The image which I have of myself, is something which I have collected through the years. My memory plays a part in my image, because I hold on to it. And my image ceases to grow only if I don't live with my memory, if I don't live with my past, but I live with now.
55:04 K: Yes, which means what? Say something which is actual, not theoretical. Don't invent something, but see what you are saying is true.
55:26 S: What I experience now and at any moment, what I experience, I leave it with the experience.
55:38 K: Are you not the result of all experiences?
55:48 S: I think it means, when you are looking at a person or looking at anything, you shouldn't think that he has already done this to me, he has already done that to me. – that is memory playing a part. Look at him at that time.
56:03 K: Yes, quite right. Now, can you do that?
56:11 S: I have tried but I have never been able to.
56:17 K: What haven't you been able to?
56:19 S: To look at a person and not think of what he has done to me before. As soon as I look at the person, I think of what all he has done to me good or bad.
56:28 K: Right. That is, you look at me and if I have done you any harm, you carry that memory, and you look at me through that memory. Clear? I have done you harm and you remember that, and through that screen you look at me. So you never look at me, but you look at me through a screen. So how will you look at me without the screen?
57:05 S: If we have no image about you.
57:12 K: You have no image about me but I have it about myself.
57:18 S: It is possible only if both don't have images.
57:22 K: That is it. You have said something: if you don't have an image and I don't have an image about myself, we can never hurt each other. Right? Then will you not have an image? Go on, old boy, don't put down your head. Go into it. Why do you have an image? And if you don't have an image, what happens?
58:00 S: I don't get hurt.
58:03 K: No, I have no image. What happens? Not only you will not get hurt, what happens?
58:18 S: You look at the person.
58:19 K: No, old boy, listen carefully. Suppose I have no image of myself, you can't hurt me. But what happens to my mind? I have no image – what is my mind?
58:42 S: It is in the present. It is just the present.
58:47 K: It is just a present – what do you mean by that?
58:50 S: The present.
58:52 GN: It is in the present.
58:54 K: Yes, what do you mean by that?
58:58 S: You go with what you are doing. You don't think about anything else, you just go with what you are doing.
59:05 K: That is you are living only in the present, without the past or without the future. Is this an idea, or actual to you?
59:25 S: If it is possible not to have an image...
59:29 K: No, I am asking, have you no image?
59:32 S: I have an image.
59:34 K: Then don't talk about it, if you don't have it.
59:42 S: Just an idea.
59:44 GN: Then it is an idea, he says.
59:46 K: That is right. Just an idea.
59:48 K: An idea like that is valueless, isn't it? It has no importance. What has importance is that you, all of you, have no image. Why don't you ask me? Go on. Why don't you ask me if I have an image about myself?
1:00:19 S: Do you have an image?
1:00:22 K: You are asking me that? Why? Because I asked you to ask me? What do you think?
1:00:38 S: I think you have an image.
1:00:41 K: What?
1:00:42 S: He thinks that you have an image.
1:00:43 K: How do you know?
1:00:47 S: Because of something which I experienced with you.
1:00:53 S: Something which he experienced with you.
1:01:01 K: I understand. What does he mean by that? Is it you have projected an image on me and you see that image. You understand my question? You have put an image on me and you say yes, you have an image. Because I sit on a platform, I talk, I happen to go all round the world, and I have a certain reputation and all that, and so you have an image about me. I might have no image about myself. You are following all this? So I am asking you if you have an image about yourself. You have, and therefore what will you do? Keep it? And get hurt all the rest of your life? Which is silly, right? Then get rid of it. Don't say it like that. If you say now, tell me how to be free of the image. I will tell you. But you don't ask me that question.
1:02:32 S: But we have to see it ourselves, sir.
1:02:34 K: You are quite right. But I can point it out to you and you can see it yourself.
1:02:41 S: Then tell it to us.
1:02:45 GN: Tell it, let us know. Please tell us.
1:02:52 K: Do you really want to know?
1:02:54 S: Yes.
1:02:57 K: Which means what?
1:02:59 S: That we have to listen to you.
1:03:02 K: Not only you will listen to me, but you will also pay attention, as he says, but in listening you are going to be free of your own image. He is not going to say, yes, I will listen to you, it is very nice, and I still have an image at the end of it. That has no meaning, has it? So, will you pay attention to what I am saying and find out if you have an image. If you have an image, let us see why you have an image and see if it is not possible to be free of it. Right? What do you call an image? When you say I have an image, what do you mean by that?
1:04:04 S: Something which you are...
1:04:07 K: Careful, carefully think it out so that it applies to everybody, not only to you.
1:04:13 S: Your conditioning.
1:04:16 K: Yes, your conditioning. Which means what?
1:04:23 S: The good in me and the bad in me. I have an image about myself of what I am good at and what I am bad at.
1:04:32 S: She has got an image about herself about what is good and what is bad about herself.
1:04:43 K: You see, that lady hasn't listened. She just has an idea of what is good and what is bad, which is part of the image. So I say, why have you an image? That image has been created by your parents, etc. Now, do you know it? No, wait, careful. Or is it an idea that you think you know.
1:05:16 S: I don't know that I have an image.
1:05:18 K: Have you understood what I said?
1:05:20 S: You said, do you know whether you have an image.
1:05:23 K: Do you know you have an image. Or an idea that you have an image. You understand the difference? You get it?
1:05:38 S: We know it, sir.
1:05:42 S: I think most of us don't know it. It is just an idea. Because if we see it, we drop it.
1:05:46 K: No. You haven't listened to what I said. You know this actually, don't you?
1:05:54 S: Yes.
1:05:56 K: But you have an idea about it. If you have an idea, the idea is not that. You see it? Good boy, clever. So do you know actually that you have an image or an idea that you have an image?
1:06:17 S: It is an idea.
1:06:19 K: That is it. Now, if it is an idea then it is not actual. Can you put aside the idea and face the actual?
1:06:38 S: Can you tell us how we know whether we have an image or not.
1:06:42 K: I am asking you whether you have an image, whether it is an idea or actual. Is it an idea that you are in Rishi Valley?
1:06:54 S: No, we are here.
1:06:57 K: We are here.
1:06:59 K: In the same way, do you know that you have an image, actual.
1:07:06 S: Perhaps.
1:07:08 K: Not perhaps.
1:07:16 S: When somebody hurts you in a minor way, you do not take it seriously...
1:07:23 K: I am not talking about that, old boy. We have gone beyond that. I am asking you if you know – know – that you have an image or is it an idea that you have an image. Which means – look, listen carefully – you have lived with ideas, not with facts. All your education is with ideas, not with facts. Ideas become more important than facts. So I am asking you, are you looking at the fact that you have an image.
1:08:31 S: It is not really a fact, because as you said the whole experience is an idea. So if everything is an idea, your image also has got to be an idea.
1:08:42 K: So you are only living in ideas. You are not living with the image, which may be an idea. You get it?
1:08:57 S: Can you repeat that?
1:09:00 K: Your image will be an idea. Get it? Wait, listen carefully. All religions are a set of ideas, your action is born out of ideas, your teaching is transforming one idea to another. So your whole make up of the mind is built on ideas. So your image may be an idea. Now, how will you be free of that idea? If you are not free, you are going to be hurt.
1:10:00 S: Look at everything as a fact, everything which is a fact.
1:10:05 K: Idea is not a fact, old boy.
1:10:06 S: No, but look at everything that is a fact.
1:10:08 K: So how will you look at it? You see how difficult it is? Do you understand? See what your mind has done. It has lived with ideas and so it has created an idea about yourself, and that idea is the structure, the movement of image, and you suddenly realise all your life – not you, you are still young – all your life is nothing but ideas. See the tragedy of it? That is all. Remain there. That is enough for this morning. We are all getting tired. Now sit comfortably. Now, before you close your eyes find out why you are thinking, what you are thinking about, from what cause or source you are thinking. Now close your eyes and work it out. All right.
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