Krishnamurti - Ending the chattering of the mind

RO73DSG2 - Ending the chattering of the mind
Rome - 31 October 1973
Discussion with Small Group 2

0:00 this is the second small group discussion with J Krishnamurti in Rome 1973 for process I thought we did we went into that into yesterday self-knowledge what is the point of knowing oneself one realizes one should know oneself because otherwise there is no foundation to clear think the clear objective sane thinking and acting if I do if one doesn't know oneself there is no basis for a total action an action that is complete not fragmentary is that is that all so self knowing is important in knowing oneself there is change there is a transformation of exactly what is a we meeting it are my talking are we understanding each other or am I just talking to myself now one of our problems is seems to me that we are so conditioned to the idea of gradual progress the world progress I was told the other day meant going into the enemy country armed the meaning of that word progress meant originally going into an enemy's country fully armed that was the meaning of that world originally progress always go forward and we are a custard or conditioned to a gradual process of change that's one of our conditions conditioning I mean isn't that so on let's discuss it I am NOT of giving a talk please not do something we are not we don't see the importance or we don't know what to do to bring about immediate change we are used to the idea that I will get one will gradually get over violence that's our conditioning in that is time element of the earth one day I the human being will be free of violence that is his violent and time is necessary to change that violence to be free of that violence is an interval between what is and what should be that's what we are conditioned to do we encase decision and when there is a time interval between what is and what should be there are other factors come in is it isn't that so other incident other experiences other influences other pressures tensions would prevents the complete freedom from violence if I have to go from here to a certain place there are various incidents going on between air and air and that those influences influence contradict a minor changes and so on so there is no final radical change right I wonder fiction so is it possible in knowing oneself to change to bring about the transformation of what is in oneself instant not allowing a time lag I mean that is I think is the importance of knowing oneself I don't know if I...

7:17 it seems to me that one of the the primer and one of the prime aspects of the mind is that it incessantly chatters chatters check just I'm I'm a madman there's no end to it there's no beginning it goes on to a night I lie in bed understanding or not it's my messes but like I mean that's really an understatement I need to see it mind any realistic chapters and the others especially I recognize this especially when one does not distract myself and when yeah that's wrong it is mine chatters all the time now how will you end that chattering not take time over it which is what we are used to control the conflict in controlling and so on so how will you how will the mind stop the chattering instantly incentive it if you take time see the importance of if you take time when chattering will stop you the chattering is going on in a minor scale or greater speed but with greater guys vitality so there is no ending to it now how will you how will the mind stop it instruction is that possible why do you have done it is that sword is it a theory know what when you say it is so what what has happened how did it happen how looks at pieces my mind is chattering all the time a mood and we said if you take time to end it hmm yeah we there have 10 years you are further strengthening the chattering is it possible to end it instant immediately and you say yes now tell me tell us how it comes about B and it seems to me that consciousness if anything is what you say has very degrees of vitality and either the volume gets louder or not it's a waiver it's a ripple it has trough high points and low points and at certain times when your attention seems to increase the volume seems to turn down but clutch still seems to the process in itself the phenomena is is not aware of itself as it's aware so it's loses itself in its attention at that moment volume gets louder then somehow you you I don't know you observe yourself again III creases but for me it never there's no I don't know for me it's a very transitory thing it stops her I don't know a minute or in time I don't know I can well in the moment when I listen to Krishna move to you I'm not chattering inside anymore but I'm not talking to you about those moments I'm talking to you about the empty moment you're walking you've you haven't seen anyone for three days you're walking on the street you find yourself in the city you find yourself into missing you're walking down the street and you feel empty and somehow lonely or whatnot and there's just yeah look this is what he's saying he's saying at the moment of attention or awareness at that moment chattering stops and when that moment is gone chattering begins again no that's not the end of chattering it's only an occasional moment or period when you give when Martin when the mind is completely essential than the chattering stopped for the moment that moment maybe for now whatever it is my question was not temporarily ending of chattering can the mind stop chattering all together only exercise for when it is necessary and be completely - it's not you see the yawns now how how is this to be done you tell me go on search you understand my question when we talk about chattering we mean fort is constantly active imagination pictures words this group is constantly movement and you're asking whether that constant motion of hope can come to an end not eventually but can that momentum of thought come to an end and only offer raise when thought is necessary I wonder fusilli I'm just asking please I may be wrong please discuss it with me let's talk about it we are slaves to and well we are so inert inertia lazy it just will come to that minute so I have a problem I have a problem the problem is this my mind is endlessly chattering going from one thing to another Association imagination speculation wondering what's going to happen what has happened before moving moving moving I want to find out mind wants find out is as can stop this constant wandering in asking that question to myself I see there are two things thought must function it is very nature to function but if it is something all the time is no there is no repose there is no rest there is no interval between the known and the unknown I don't feel follow I will be meeting somewhere no Meah no you understand my question first hmm I know throat has to function not I know thought has to function and when it is not functioning can be fired that's the problem very simply and I see the mind sees that when there is chattering is in dissipation of the energy of thought so what I like to do what is to be done Frances I don't know if it is if you ever thought about it these men that's not the point I don't know what we said Eustace let's forget what we said yes no no no not quite I don't think you're meeting the question is it a problem to you this chattering right how do you why does it tell her is it one of the reasons is it because if it doesn't chatter it feels saintly gets frightened and chattering chattering and also it may be a habit and it's a cultivated habit because we would never want to be alone I know only in the sense going away and moving walking on whatever look without any just observing without any chattering going on now how do you find this out what do you what will you do we should come come and sit you see I'm not concerned about chatter what is important is is thought functioning objectively saintly and non fragmentarily you answer I have to do something well life is active life is relationship in that relationship is thought capable of acting holy I wonder if you meet and forgotten for the moment chattering I'll approach it in a different way negatively or totally the fruit man so I'm asking myself thought by spirit mixture is fragmentary right is that I don't know in-laws do we see that that is a in certain language culture thought means outside when you use the word outside it also means thought that means thought is always sensory thought is matter roti is memory which is matter throat is measurable throat is time I that is so now can that thought act objectively none emotionally you follow non personally but then it becomes inefficient so my enquiry is can thought function quite objectively non fragmentary go on so let's discuss observe my mind chattering so what do I do I ask myself who is it that's chairman no no not yet you're missing the foot not yet sir not yet first see the problem sir you understand sir not the answer about no sir you can listen to a problem can't you I am putting you a problem you can listen to it I put the problem and I am listening to it I am listening to it but you you are listening you are listening to it wanting an answer what we might describe this chattering material that comes up from the subconscious something that one hasn't resolved consciously and totally and therefore it's fed up into the consciousness without a rail that may be be dealt with that may be but I have told you I'm not concerned about that for the time being because I want to find out the whole mechanism of thought you for the whole process of loop if the mind is aware of the total process of thinking then catherine has very little meaning all it has significance which has we resolved I did because looks at its failure angel not the process of thought no I'm not talking about rain from no you're not listening to my problem I've got a problem my problem not yours just listen to find out what my problem I've got a problem I realize my mind is in ghoulishly terrible going from one thing to another one Association leads to another suit and so on inglis chain sleeping waking all the time which means thought is constantly in motion of course mmm chattering is thought moving from one thing to another so I won't if the whole structure and nature of Ford is understood hmm then perhaps I did it detective may have a meaning or no meaning at all so the I have to understand the whole nature of fork that's my first problem not ending beta I'm young it may be pleasurable but may be painful but chattering is chattering so I say to myself I wish I could and if the mind can totally understand the whole nature of thinking then perhaps chattering has a meaning or no meaning right is that clear says it was pointed out earlier chattering maybe the intermission of the water is in the unconscious maybe that and the unconscious also the product of thought the stalls of memories experiences tradition the racial instincts the procedure the whole endeavor all unconscious efforts of man is there right and all that is part of fucking conscious as well as unconscious right and chattering maybe as it was pointed out coming out of the unconscious out of the deeper layers of the mind so I want to understand the whole business of fraud not ending texting but the whole structure so I said to myself what is fault what is thinking what do you think bouncers I asked you here it is now I ask you a question what is thinking hmm you hear the question right and after hearing the questions what is going on in your mind everything that I know to answer you yes which means what i answering you from what i know but you know what does that mean it means that God is always from the it's always oh that no no please listen you I asked you a question what is think what takes place mind is inquiring looking back to find the right answer between the questioning and the answering is time interval in that time interval thought is not asking searching for an answer right the searching asking questioning is part of thinking right hmm so I see between question and answer in that lack of time in that integral of time thought is active to first answer my question so thought is looking into memory and from that memory is going to answer so memory is thought all right I wonder if your series memory if as you pose that question one feels some action within oneself is that memory or is that in that moment like toggling so I'm coming to that presently you go slowly step by step I asked you a question like what is thinking and you are response to that he says please give me two minutes give me a second give me but now I look into myself they're looking into myself is to look into the memory hmm remember what other people have said or what I think about it and so on and then you see us thinking is this after examining looking into memory you said thinking is the response of memory right obviously memory being in the past then I ask you something little more companies you take much longer so please I can't answer this question I'll answer deftly tomorrow in the meantime you look um in books you ask people you go into all that and at the end of today's is it this is the answer again searching in the records of memories now I ask you a question which cannot possibly answer they said you can't sell it I look into my memory and find out that nobody continued you want sir please listen to this I ask you a question that's totally unanswerable answer would cuz you don't know do you say then I do not know you have looked into the memory ask people read books at the end of it says sorry I really don't know hmm you see the what has happened first a very short interval between question answer second a longer interval between question and answer and the third is sorry I don't know memory has no response to that question right now all that is the process of simply isn't it hmm the not knowing that knowing after names of them long or short and annoying and the response immediately what's your name your answer is immediate so that the whole process of that is think right now you see to me one should you stop think what is Chesley I didn't you mean this is why should it stop please answer why should it stop it's completely mechanical obvious what's wrong being completely mechanical what is wrong with being the cancel that's your life never let up face it that's your life it's mechanical life I know who don't like it who say that my life is mechanical but it is mechanical as long as you are functioning at the level of hope it is mechanical no big paint lifted go step by step so you will you will see it don't jump the skip it look at it very closely my life is mechanical your life is mechanical sexual the office they going to work the repetition the imitation the concession all this mechanical our education needs to conform to the pattern of a society hmm and with one motion is not mechanical oh isn't it I don't know I thought no look at it I'm not saying I'm not saying it is not just look at it I got angry hmm that's a move I feel sympathy or empathy I can't induce induce this anger mechanically so it is not mechanic but I wait wait the the wall that just ended hmm it's in the Middle East you feel my god what you follow this enormous sympathy that's all part of thinking isn't it the things I adore don't excite or should what the Russians are little divot is preceded by thought is it emotion preceded by thought before inverse and emotion afters are emotion first and thought afterward or or because you are sinking emotion arises because you are thinking that you're Arabs are right and these rays are wrong and therefore your sympathies emotion with their Arabs and auntie's or anti Hindu or politics but that is emotion or do you call emotion I love you in that there is no emotion plenty of so let's go back and I said to myself it's thought I understand who I understand great deal of the process of thinking why should it stop and who say that you should stop you for self I know I see why it should stop because if the machine is constantly repeating itself there is nothing new and also when it's Const any machine that's constantly moving operating functioning wears itself out if you run a motor all the time Theodora miss it it just goes to pieces so I see it is good for it to stop in order to freshen itself hmm and perhaps in that stopping something new can be seen which is not mechanical no no I am NOT trying to stop it I am NOT trying to stop anything your sensor I'm watching is if the map is being unfolded I'm only mind is only watching this map as it unfolds as it unfolds I see that when thought there is the seeing in the map that when thought is constantly in operation it wears itself off when it becomes mechanical hmm it has no it has no depth no vitality so and when throat is constantly in movement there is nothing new ice the map tells me I don't tell the map tells me and then I see the Maxis because I the mind sees in the map that is necessary to talk listen it is essential to stop first for it to see something new and is essential to stop in order to not wear itself out what takes place see the mind stops because the matter is more intelligent than what you want I wonder if you see this the map says if you don't stop you're in danger right the map says you'll wear yourself out the map says look if you stop you'll see another road which you have never seen before the map reveals all this to me and the revelation of the map makes the man say is quite right it stopped because the maps is more important than what you want I want a few series so take a map of Italy or not and you look at it you want to go in a certain direction Florence Venice whatever remaining and there it is the road is there it's a mechanical thing that but in this map it is not only mechanical it tells you be intelligent or boy you follow be intelligent see the danger and to see the danger is intelligence well not I want to stop everything which is non intelligence but then but seeing them that there is intelligence would say see the danger intelligence is the danger therefore intelligence operates and says it's not I don't only must see the map very clear intelligence face-to-face don't change the volume because you see the danger of it the scene in the map the danger is intelligence it is the neuro frequencies what that goes into danger upon inclusiveness to my mind seeing the danger required the follow so it hasn't been made quite it doesn't stop you for it thought has its function I am talking to you in English or Italian French warrantees in English so tis operation that because it really it isn't operate there were no birds mmm so thought knows when it is necessary to function and because it it knows when it is necessary to function it also says I can't function there I want to do series I've taught sorry what is yes sir by the map the questioner says do you mean what it is of course the matter is what is not what I'll tell the map there are few things on there I tell them at what it should be which is my desire my wish my hope my pleasure my fear my all that but the map is different from what I've bought so the map is what is which cannot be deeply changed by me the map says look look very closely and see the dangerous parts nationalism is a danger right because it divides people have eventually volume to each other what it is such a dreadful danger because in that nationalism is division therefore conflict see and be free of it from goods that otherwise you're insane right because it says sanity my mind says all right finish with rationalism I don't see my god I must be free of it Oh am i free of it how beneficial it is it gives me security you follow and the danger in the maxis believes him divided people beliefs opinions ideologies have that's a danger so the map if you look reveals everything but sir the map is not mechanical one momentum the map is not mechanical I reduce the map to my mechanical epochs I want up you see this look sir the map says don't be a natural I'm thinking that very ordinary very rather painful and destructive division the map says look how dangerous it is look what has happened in history wars on Nash you philosopher and it says don't if you are saying you won't be a natural but I heard - I like the feeling of nationality I for me to identify myself with a country calling India goose me certain vitality certain state a certain assurance seventh sense of pride I like that so there is conflict between what the man says and myself I don't and that kind conflict is insane comforting because that is a fact this is not a fact so if you follow sir this is mechanic all because I've been trained I've been educated to say I am an Italian I am this way so there is a conflict between my conditioning and the truth the truth is don't be a national because that brings destruction instead of sexuality to human beings but yet I go on because I like this feeling of being a national you naturally stick that's this is mechanical that's not that says look therefore see from that what happens my experience being a natural nationalistic strengthened by everybody around me that very experience gives me the strength to deny that right I wonder to see me so I so the fact the danger dictates what I should do not I don't dictate for to the fact you get it so there is no struggle only seeing clearly the danger so see clearly the mechanical process of fault the wastage of energy the constant repetition and also see that there is in in this constant movement of thought there is nothing new the map is telling me I do not killing the map the map says look and when you see the death which is true then you instantly are out of it I've told you sir the map is what is what is its look the map is the history his map is history part of history my map is the education that had received of course to miss rainbow what effects have been educated to be a nationalistic patriotic waving the flag and you know killing for that I've been educated right destroying what I have been seeking security because I need security food clothes shelter some comfort a sense of God's sake I must live and nationalism is destroying that very security which I want I want a few hmm so the map is the fact which is the capacity to observe what is going on around me what is going on all around me what is going on inside me is the map only I misread it because I start out from a egocentric point of view that's what I want to stop chattering cuz I I don't like it Isis it's Eva Kate you follow it is a bothers me I want to be tired I want to sit still but my body moves and I hate this country I am dictating to myself I must stop whereas I'm inquiring into the whole structure of thought I'd see what how essential it is for thought to come to an end and accepting it has to operate so that brings up a question I do not know if you want to go into it what place has knowledge in the transformation of man and society very interested in this look the sea is not recognizing I am sea but the moment I recognize it it is my experience but says that's wrong my experience is educated experience conditioned experience an experience which is the result of my educational culture tradition know this and showed it to you I've showed it to you I've showed it to you as we said recognition is one thing and seeing is another recognition implies the knowing of that thing which has been in the past right recognition is a movement of experience as the past right seeing is not through colored glasses of experience just see look I see what nationalism is doing in the world hmm I don't know if you see it Arab Muslim it doesn't matter don't get concerns for the moment look look pick up your paper and look and Uranus right there are two of fighting Russia takes one side America takes the other and they threaten each other and so on and you see what division has done one ideology opposed to another ideology right one set of invested group against another invested group so there it is so you see seeing is not recognizing them seeing what division is doing like it's so simple so I said to myself I'm a Hindu if I am I'm contributing to this era so the truth phase gives me seeing the truth is intelligence I've been trolling hmm now let's go back what I started the next question which is what place has knowledge I don't know if you're interested in the place of to transform man and society what is its place has it any place we have said it has and our whole structure is based on right I wonder if you see or interesting I'm not sure that matters it's not just for chapters for the sake of talking please for the sake of fear see what place is knowledge what is the place of knowledge in the transformation of man and society what place is it what please discuss with what place is it do you understand sir Lenin and all that group sacred knowledge is part of history and history can be read anywhere you want knowledge that's knowledge and they from that knowledge they concluded an ideology hmm and brought about a revolution right killing millions millions millions that's clean this part of the human thing going on so I would say to myself I see this happening all over the world where they're giving importance to knowledge as a means to transformation of man hmm is that so you understand I'm not saying it is or it's not I'm inquiring are you are you please bring forward see I'm tremendously concerned with the transformation of man to me that is from endured that's the only thing and I ask what place has in the transformation knowledge knowledge being experienced of course Storyful experience whole world of experience from that experience there is the accumulated knowledge science physics mathematics engineering all that one has learned about business run in fact all that is this enormous accumulation of knowledge through experience it's a lesson so will that transform me see what religions have done is very interesting see what religions have done they have got this tremendous knowledge not as much as we have it now but they had certain knowledge and they used that knowledge to transform man they invented a religious structure as a savior their master the one who is going to the guru you follow i wouldn't you see all this do you see all this and they through knowledge they hope to change man they have 2000 years 3000 eternal or five thousand years many just as before modified little bit more polite little bit more cunning little bit more sophisticated little better if people critically can be put things over and so on so oh no no that's your danger not my TCC's your danger is not my I'm Jesus you'll form another temple drown yourself if you're if you are neurotic you'll for me memory will be growing change the economy remember cause the thing that led that shape any color they were comic all of them if you see the danger then you're intelligent in you won't do anything but you won't form if you don't see the danger you will become neurotic and form a another beastly little village those are not concerned don't don't you do it to the stop let's get on with our stuff I see what religions have done all their structure their rituals their gods their sip is based on thought with thought is knowledge experience you follow and said this will change you all over the world I've done this the more knowledge you have scientifically biologically conquered al you follow more knowledge you have the more man will change and it apparently hasn't gained met it has changing little bit you can say better all over greatly better bathroom better all the rest of it and I say to myself then what will change my don't censor any motive for change is still within the field of knowledge I wonder if you see that if I want to be better I won't be better because I have seen something which is better will comparison change man obviously it hasn't remarried that work images on cross differences all over the place in Christian world and they have a major sin in India and so on so on so so knowledge Jesus is a factor which is necessary and apparently that factor doesn't change man just as violent has brutalized war evolution told any sense of affection care responsibility and all the rest now how is what are you what are you to do Martha you disgust me die dog I think the scientists are coming to this point two philosophers haven't come to respond us still thinking using knowledge a follow and better ideations better ideologies better concept better formulas better theories all from the background of knowledge so what will what is one to do come on sir I'll put it differently I want to transform myself right I won't be not pleased I'm losing height just a means of communicating quickly a totally different human being inwardly not output learn biologically I can't change I can't have three eyes or four arms let's so there must be a radical change in myself how am I to do it come on sirs no that's the only hope man has got now you follow otherwise is going to destroy himself here's utilizing all the resources the earth you follow sir he's polluting the air is doing everything to destroy I do not know if you've seen on television these tanks being destroyed your section car alarm are your son they're beautifully built and picked up next minute knowledge built set up knowledge comes wrong destroys and that Howard my mind to change so radically come out self I'm sorry if I don't see why it's so important to keep name huh I don't see why it's important to keep man to me to know to keep men as they are to keep them alive they can't disguise himself I don't know I have a son that's emotional no I had a motel emotional God's sake I'm not an emotional I've got his son yeah but if I have a son and I think I have to change the world for my son no I gotta for my I want my son listen up carefully I feel personally I am the world and the world is me actually hmm right biologically I am conditioned by the culture a living I am the culture so the world is me and I'm the world I don't separate myself and say I am NOT the world I am the world and living in this world I have got sons daughters not only my your daughter your son because I am like you hope and I said I want to save these people which of my responsibility it isn't an ideology it is something I kind of invent and you get emotional about yeah it's the fact and the practiced go responsible not only for your beastly little son for every bit little son in the world and daughter be student-centered so I want not have in the transformation of them of the mind I am bringing about this transformation in the world even sensor as a new flower you you fellows a new thing so what I'd like to do one sir join your problem I can't get rid of all the scientific knowledge I can't get rid of all the knowledge of mathematics so to knowledge knowledge has its field I think I can't get it has a field the field all right therefore where has it no place you answer and it doesn't change me look madam look there being in as long as history has been written five thousand and more Wars that means war every other year throughout the world not just Europe and we are still going on the mothers and their children the mothers oh don't say stupid I'm not going to love this and if all the scientists in the world say look no more we're not going to work for government they'll be end of war but they won't right so what am I to do how is this mind which has been conditioned mind which has evolved in its own conditioning useful gastly practicing Hindu Buddhist Muslim communist imperialist you know the old filled my mind this mind has traveled through centuries the mind and as fired tremendous knowledge the same medication and apparently that hasn't changed one little bit deeply fundamentally so what is to be done what your ancestors come on it's not those philosophies that have to change man that hasn't changed though it's the same thing I'm going bad but it's it's the same thing if people follow you and don't and don't see what you're saying then they're wrong you can't follow a philosophy until you or you can't agree with the philosophy until you see it so it's not religion that hasn't changed and it's man that hasn't changed man it's man that's formed religion of course of the Buddha or Christ man has invented all the process all the images of the saints all babe all the paraphernalia is management which is taught is impeccable okay so that is not in the same room at this but not that either the importance of Chrysler will happen I don't anything I was sorry I don't even bring that but that important sorry I never thought yeah romantic change there look okay man have to see it now no man has to see it cannot change you right thought which is employing all the time total that's a tremendous injury you follow his everything sort cannot change man he wants something else to put in its place he understands her hoping that will change but what he wants to put in its place is still hope I want to feel safe what about the property of life broker earlier in relationship to map but Sir what about the properly applied thought earlier on in the math has taught any relationship has thought what is this place of thought in the relationship what's the place of thought in relationship between you and me between me and my wife would me and my neighbor whatever Italy what place is it that's a different thing so that's your difference it's love thought no just look at it sir is it love the product of salt then what is my relationship with my wife hot no whatever it is is based on fault what Fontaine is carrying now the word spontaneous is rather difficult world spontaneity implies freedom just look sure what is month has thought what is the place of salt in relationship you asked me please you are related to your wife's Ottoman girl whatever it be what is the place of salt salt is loaded right no see some what is implied I am asking what is the place of thought in religious 40 is knowledge right thought is memory and what has memory knowledge what is its place in relationship yes

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