SA65T4 - Freedom, space and order home
Saanen, Switzerland - 18 July 1965
Public Talk 4

Text-only version

0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s fourth public talk in Saanen, 1965.
0:10 Krishnamurti: We have been talking, the last three times that we met here, about the necessity of a radical and fundamental revolution within oneself; not as an individual saving his own particular little soul, but as a human being totally related to all other human beings. Consciously, we may separate ourselves into petty, little individualities but deep-down, unconsciously, we are the inherited human experience of all time; and mere superficial changes – economic, social or something that’ll give a little comfort and convenience – is not productive of a new society. 2:00 And we are concerned, not only with the human transformation of his total nature, but also in bringing about a different society. And the good society is not possible if there is no good human being. The good human being does not flower in prison. Goodness flowers in freedom, not in tyranny, in one-party system, either politically or religiously.
3:12 Freedom is considered by society as dangerous to itself because the individual then pursues his own particular enterprise, through his own cleverness, cunningness, dominates, and so there is generally a feeling, an idea, a judgment that freedom is contrary to a good society. And so tyrannies, political parties try to control – religiously as well as economically and socially – the human mind; try to tyrannise the mind, not allowing him to think, to feel, to be free. 4:30 And in the so-called democratic societies, there is greater freedom, obviously – because we are here, sitting; it would not be allowed in other countries – but that freedom is also denied because it takes the form of a revolt. So we are not talking about revolt but rather of a complete flowering of human goodness, which can alone produce a good, creative society.
5:23 And that goodness of the human being can flower only in freedom, in total freedom; and to understand this question of freedom, one has to go into the question of not only order but also freedom in relationship to society. Society maintains itself in order, through order. If you observe oneself, the society in which one lives, whether of the extreme left or of the right or of the centre, society demands order, where the individual doesn’t exploit others. But that order is denied because of the very structure, the very psychological structure of society. Society is based on competition, greed, envy and aggressive pursuit of one’s own fulfilment, achievement; and, in the very psychological structure of society, there is no freedom at all and therefore there is no order. 7:25 Society as it is – whether of the left or of the right – is disorder, because society is not concerned with the fundamental, radical revolution of a human mind. And that revolution can only take place in freedom, not outside of freedom. And we mean by freedom, not a reaction, not a freedom from something. If there is freedom from something, then it is a reaction and not freedom at all.
8:14 That is, if the mind frees itself from a certain attitude, certain ideas, certain forms of its own self-expressions, in that freedom from something, it is driven to other form of an assertion and therefore it’s a reaction in which there is no freedom at all. So one has to be very clear what one means by freedom. I know a great many books and philosophies and religious ideas and concepts and political expressions have gone and discussed this problem of freedom, but as a human being, living in a world which is so destructive, living in a world of sorrow and misery and confusion, a human being ridden by his own problems, by his own frustrations, despairs, unless one finds for oneself as a human being in total relationship with the other human beings what freedom is, there is no flowering of goodness. 9:57 Because without goodness – which is not a mere sentimental word but which has an extraordinary significance; because I do not see how one can act without… an act in which there is no reaction of misery, reaction of fear, of despair unless the human mind understands totally this question of what is goodness. Not verbally; the word goodness is not the fact. The word is not the thing. And we should be extremely watchful not to be caught in the word and the definition of that word, but rather be or understand that state which is goodness. And that goodness cannot flower, flourish, except in freedom. 11:33 And freedom is not a reaction, is not away from something, or the resistance or the revolt against something. It is a state of mind. And that state of mind, which is freedom, cannot be understood if there is not space. Freedom demands space.
12:10 There is, in the world, less and less space; towns are getting more and more crowded. The explosion of population is denying space to each one of us. We live in a little room surrounded by innumerable other rooms and there is no space, except perhaps when we wander away into the country, far away from towns, smoke and dirt and noise. But there cannot be inward freedom if there is not inward space. Again, that word space is different from the fact, so don’t – if I may suggest – seize upon the word and try to analyse the word or define the word. 13:32 You can easily look up [in] a dictionary and find what it says about space: an extension, a continuous extension. But to put the question, ‘What is space? ’ to ourselves, and if we can remain with that word, not define it, not try to feel your way into it, not inquire about it, but to see what it means non-verbally. Because freedom and space go together. To us, space is round the object, round the chair, round the building, round a person, round… a certain contours of the mind.
14:54 Please, listen rather than agree or disagree, because we are going to go into something rather difficult and subtle to express in words; but we must go into it to understand what is freedom.
15:27 We only know space because of the object: there is this object and round that there is space; or that thing creates space. There is this tent and within that ten there is space, and round that tent there is space; round that tree, round that mountain. And we only know space within the four walls or outside the four walls, outside the building. And we only know space within, from the centre which looks out. That is, there is a centre, the image – if I may go back to that word which we have been talking about; and, again, that word image is not the fact of the image itself – there is this centre round which there is space; we only know space because of the object within that space.
16:48 Now, is there space without object, without you as a human being as the centre from which you are looking? A space, as we know, is design, is structure; is relationship of structure to another structure, of one centre to another centre. Now, if space is only created by the object or by the mind within… as a centre from which it is looking, then that space is limited and therefore there is no freedom in that space. To be free in a prison is not freedom. To be free within the four walls of one’s relationships, of one’s… to be free of a certain problem – again, within the limited space of one’s own thought, activities, ideas, conclusions, image – is not freedom.
18:28 Please, if may I suggest once again, through the words of the speaker observe your own space that you have created for yourself, as a human being in relationship with another; as a human being living in a world of destruction, brutality; as a human being in relationship to a particular society. Observe your space, how limited it is. Not this room in which you live, whether it’s small or big – that’s not what we’re talking about – but the space which each one of us has; that space created round a centre, round the image, round a conclusion. And so we only know the space as an object which creates space.
19:57 I don’t know if I’m making myself clear. And I am saying that, as long as there is a centre around which there is space or the centre which creates space, then there is no freedom at all; and therefore, when there is no freedom, there is no goodness or the flowering of goodness. And anything can flower only when there is space; space in which the image, as the centre, is not.
20:48 Look, let me put it round the other way — you look a little bit puzzled. You know, it’s the very nature of the mind – of a good, healthy, strong mind – to demand freedom, not only for itself, for others. That freedom has been translated into various ways – in India one way, in the East another, here; religiously, economically and socially – and in inquiring, in going into that question: what is the freedom of a human being; not isolating himself in a monastery or becoming a wandering monk or living in some fanciful, ideological, ivory tower – which is not freedom at all – or identifying oneself with a particular political, religious or ideational group is not freedom. 22:40 So in inquiring into that: what is freedom, and how there can be freedom in any relationship?
22:55 So to understand relationship, to understand freedom, one must go into this question of what is space. Because most of our minds are small, petty, limited; we are so heavily conditioned: by religion, by the society in which we live, by education, by technology, by the sun; by everything we are limited, forced to conform to a certain pattern. And one sees within that there is no freedom; and one demands complete freedom, not partial freedom; it’s not going to the prison and living in a room twenty-four hours or twenty hours and go into the yard and go around there — that’s not freedom. 24:16 As a human being living in this society, living with all the confusion, misery, conflict, torture, such a mind demands freedom; and freedom is a healthy, normal thing. And to find that out, what it means, living in a society, living in relationship, with your property, with your family, with your idea — what it means to be free. And how can the mind be free if it hasn’t got enormous space within itself; not created by an idea of space – I don’t know if you’re… – not created by the centre round which there is a certain limited space, an interval of time? 25:35 So as a human being, one has to find out the relationship of freedom and space. And what is space? And is there space without the centre, without the object round which… or which creates space?
26:04 Are you following all this? Because it’s very important to find this out, otherwise there is no freedom; otherwise we shall always be tortured, we shall always be in constant conflict with each other; we shall not only be in revolt against society – which has no meaning at all; to give up smoking, to grow long hair, become a beatnik or a Beatle, or God knows what else, has no meaning, because those are all forms of revolt.
26:57 And so we are trying to find out what is freedom which is not revolt; and if there is such thing as freedom; and if there is such thing as freedom which is not the creation of a mind as an idea, but a fact. And to find out that fact, one must inquire most profoundly into the question of space. Because a little mind, a petty, little bourgeois, middle-class mind or an aristocratic mind – which is also petty – such a mind, it may think it is free but it’s not free, because it is living within the limits of its own space created by the image in which it functions. Is that clear? So freedom, space and order.
28:32 You cannot have order without freedom, and you cannot have freedom without space. So the three go together; they’re not separate. A society of the extreme left, through tyranny it hopes to create order; it cannot create order; through one political party, dictatorship, it cannot; economically, socially or any other way, because order means freedom; and to bring about order within oneself – not as an individual saving his petty, little, dirty little soul, but as a human being who has lived for two million years, with all the vast experience of man.
29:44 So order is virtue, and virtue which is goodness cannot flower in any society which is always in contradiction with itself. So outside influence – economic, social, technology, going to Mars and all the rest of it – that cannot possibly produce order. What produces order is the inquiry into freedom; not intellectual inquiry but actual work, breaking down the conditioning, the limits, the prejudices, the narrow ideas; breaking down the whole psychological structure of society, of which we are part. 30:54 Unless you break through that, there is no order and therefore there is no freedom. It’s like a small mind trying to understand the immensity of the world, of life, of beauty. It cannot. It can imagine, it can write poems about it, paint pictures, but the fact is different from the reality… from… the reality, the fact is different from the word, from the image, from the symbol, from the picture.
31:35 So order can only come about through the awareness of disorder. You cannot create order – please do see this thing – you can only be aware of disorder, outwardly as well as inwardly. Because a disordered mind cannot create order; it doesn’t know what it means. It can only react to what it thinks is disorder and then create a pattern which it calls order and conform to that order, to that pattern. But if the mind is aware of the disorder in which it lives, which is being aware of the negative, not of the positive – you’re following all this? – then order becomes 33:13 something extraordinarily creative, moving, living. Because order is not a pattern which you are following day-after-day. The following of a pattern which you have established and following it day-after-day, practicing it, is disorder. Oh…! Whereas if the mind becomes aware of the disorder, the disorder of conflict, of effort, of greed, of envy, of ambition, of all the petty, little human beings have created as society.
34:07 Now, if one becomes aware of that disorder – aware; you understand? – not choosing, not saying, ‘This is order, and that is disorder,’ but choicelessly to be aware of that disorder demands extraordinary… not only intelligence, which is sensibility, sensitiveness, but also in that very awareness, choiceless awareness there is a discipline; not conformity.
34:47 You know, am I driving too hard? Am I putting too many ideas in one basket, one moment?
35:04 You see, for of us, discipline – whether we like it or not, whether we practice or not, whether we are aware of it, whether we are conscious of it or unconscious of it – discipline is a form of conformity, for most people. All the soldiers in the world – those poor, miserable human beings, whether of the left or of the right – are made to conform to a pattern, because they have certain things to do. And with us – who are not soldiers trained to destroy and to protect oneself – with us, discipline is either imposed by environment, by society, by the family, by the office, by the routine of everyday existence, or we impose discipline on ourselves.
36:25 And when one examines this whole structure and the meaning of discipline, whether it is imposed discipline or self-discipline, it is a form of conformity or adjustment to a pattern, to a memory, to an experience, outwardly or inwardly. What…? This is so. And we revolt against that discipline. Every human mind revolts against this stupid form of conformity, whether established by the dictators or by the religious priests or by the gods, by the saints, whatever they are. And yet one sees there must be some kind of discipline in life, which is not conforming, which is not adjusting, which is not based on fear and all the rest of it; because, otherwise, if there is no discipline, you can’t live. 37:47 So one has to inquire into a discipline which is not conformity, because that conformity destroys; conformity never brings about freedom. Look at the churches throughout the world, the political parties. It’s so obvious, that we don’t have to labour that point. Either you see it or you don’t see it; if you don’t see it, it’s up to you.
38:30 So the fear of society, the psychological structure of society, which creates a discipline of conformity, is immoral and disorderly; in which we are caught. And a mind that wants to find out what is discipline – because there must be certain movement which is not controlled, shaped, conforming – and to go into that, to find that out, one has to be aware of this extraordinary disorder, confusion, misery in which one lives; and to be aware of it sensitively, totally, not fragmentarily but totally; to be aware of it so choicelessly, in itself is discipline.
39:47 I don’t know if you’re following all this.
40:00 If I am aware what I am doing, if I am aware of the action of my hand, the very awareness of that movement is a form of discipline, in which there is no conformity. Right? Is this clear? No, no; non-verbally; actually within yourself you have to do this. So order can only come about through this sense of awareness in which there is no choice and therefore it’s a total awareness, a complete sensitivity of every movement of thought. And in that awareness itself, that awareness itself is discipline; therefore, in that awareness of the disorder, there is order. The mind hasn’t to produce order.
41:27 And to have order, which is the flowering of goodness and of beauty, there must be freedom. And there is no freedom if you have no space; space with...
41:58 Look, I’ll put a question to you. Don’t answer me, please; you have no answer. What is space? When you put that question to yourself – seriously, not just flippantly; as I am putting it to you – what is space? To answer that question, your mind now has only space within the limitations of a room or the object which creates the space. To you, that’s the only space you have. And is there space without the object? If there is no space without the object, then there is no freedom, and therefore there is no order, therefore there is no beauty, there is no flowering of goodness; therefore there is everlasting struggle. 43:31 So a mind has to discover by hard work, not by just listening to some words, words, words, to find out if there is space without the centre. And when once that has been found, then there is everything that human mind can flower in.
44:18 So discipline, order, freedom and space cannot exist without understanding of time. (Laughter) Right; we’ve both got it. It’s quarter past eleven, so I’d better stop there. But it’s very interesting to find out the nature of time; not only by the watch, the time of yesterday and the time of today and the time of tomorrow; the time when you should walk, the time when you should sleep; but also you must find out time which is not by the watch. 45:37 And that’s much more difficult, because we look to time as a means of bringing about order: ‘Give me a few more years, I will be good. We’ll create a marvellous world. We’ll create a new generation.’ Or, ‘We’ll create a new type of human being who will be so totally communist, totally this or totally that.’ So we use time as a means of creating order; but when one observes, you will see that time breeds disorder.
46:40 That’s enough for this morning. We’ll discuss what we have talked and we’ll pursue next meeting about this whole thing again. I hope you’re not too hot.
47:02 Questioner: Sir, will you please explain whether the state of deep compassion, sharing another’s suffering and trouble, is compatible with a state of freedom of which you spoke?
47:22 K: The gentleman asks: can you share the misery, the tortures, the despairs of another. What do we mean by that word share? I can share a few francs with you; I can share the few things that I have with you: shirts, trousers, or a room, extra room that I have. I can share an experience verbally; tell you of my experience, my misery, the things which I have lived through, the beauty which I have seen. So where does sharing end and where does sharing begin? I love you – you’re my wife, my husband, my children, my family, my neighbour. 48:48 I don’t love my neighbour; sorry. (Laughter) I compete with him; I destroy him through business; but I talk about loving my neighbour, which is all nonsense; even though the priests shout about it every day. I can share; I love my family. And do I share anything with them, apart from things? You understand? Can I share my sorrow, my misery with another? He can tell me, ‘Oh, I’m so sorry, old chap, you’re having such a bad time,’ pat me, hold my hand, but can I actually share the agony, the anxiety which I am going through?
49:52 Have you ever shared anything with anybody? So when does one share actually – you understand? – not financially, not in words, not through ideas or exchange ideas, arguments and all the rest of it, but when does one really share anything together; non-verbally, non... with things, but actually? You only… we only share with another, commune with another, when there is love – wait a minute – and that word has so many meanings for so many different people. Now… I don’t want to go into all this; it becomes too complex. You know, we share something together – which is nonverbal, which are not things – when we both of us are intense, at the same level, at the same time. 51:42 About anything. When there’s the same intensity as you and I have; same intensity, the same urgency; and that urgency, that intensity must have... at the same time, at a deep… at a level which is both... are equal. Your intensity must be at the same level, at the same depth and at the same time, otherwise there is no communion, otherwise there is nothing to share but things, words, and stupid experience and explanations of experiences or knowledge. That’s not sharing.
52:45 Can two people, you and I – you don’t know me, I don’t know you. You may know your wife, but I doubt it, or your husband. To know means a great deal – can you and I live, even for a minute, even for a few hours with an intensity, with an urgency which is at the same depth and at the same time? Then there is communion, then is there sharing. Otherwise there’s merely an exchange, a market, a sentimental, emotional thing which has no meaning at all. To share, there must be no emotion, no sentiment, only that state of mind which is serious, intense, alive. Then there is no question of sharing with anything or with anybody. A flower doesn’t share with you or with me; its beauty, its perfume is there for you to look, for you to smell.
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