SA79D1 - Is there an action that doesn't bring sorrow? home
Saanen, Switzerland - 25 July 1979
Public Discussion 1

Text-only version

1:10 Krishnamurti: For the next five days, every morning here, we are going to have a dialogue. A dialogue means conversation between two people. Two people who are concerned about their life, about their way of living, the world about us, and serious enough to resolve their problems, and so they are investigating together through a dialogue. Dialecticism is the art of investigation the truth of opinions. The truth of opinions, that is called dialectics. And opinions, our judgements, personal evaluations, points of views, and I don’t think you can find truth through those means. But perhaps if we are serious enough and concerned and committed to the investigation of our own problems, not theoretically, not in abstraction, but actually that which is happening. 3:06 And two friends are talking over together about their problems, investigating and hoping thereby to resolve their problems. I hope that is clear. It is not a talk by the speaker but together have a conversation, a friendly, not antagonistic, not opposing points of view but together go into our problems. So that is the intention of these morning meetings here for the next 5 mornings. And I hope we will do that.
3:55 Now what shall we talk over together this morning?
4:09 Questioner: Sir, is it possible to observe thought as it occurs in the present, or when there is observation, the thought is already past?
4:21 K: Is it possible to observe thought as it is happening, or to observe thought as it has past. To observe what is thinking as thought arises, and observe that, or investigate thought which has already happened.
4:54 Any other? Please, let’s put lots of questions and see which is the best of them and take one and work it out completely together. Go to the very end of it. So that is the first question.
5:25 Q: I was struck by an automobile when I was 17 years old, and I have had a great deal of difficulty with energy, being stuck in this area of my body; my leg was torn out. And I have listened to you for quite a few years and understand about not identifying with the problem. I wonder if you could go into personal injury, sir, mental cripples, like me.
5:55 K: Could you discuss, have a conversation about physically becoming incapable or having pain, and does that affect the mind. Does that affect the quality of thinking, quality of feeling, quality of affection.
6:21 That is two questions. Go on, sirs. Would you mind talking a little louder?
6:33 Q: Yes. Krishnaji, is the psyche a thing of the mind only or has it anything to do with truth? Is there universal psyche? What is this psyche you talk about so often?
6:59 K: The psyche of the mind and universal psyche. Is that it? Please, avanti.
7:13 Q: The difference between the ‘me’ and individuality.
7:19 K: The me? The individuality. All right, sir. The me and individuality.
7:31 Q: Sir, would you speak a little bit more about action which is not based on thought?
7:39 K: Would you talk, or discuss, have a conversation about what is action, whether there is an action which is precise, accurate, and does not bring about further actions which will demand greater sorrow, greater problems, and so on.
8:15 Q: What is the relationship between love and death?
8:36 K: What is the relationship between love and death? Now, just a minute, just a minute!
8:52 Q: Could you please explore further the relationship between fear and dependence? I am concerned about dependence in my own life and my relationship with my girlfriend. Sometimes I see it, and yet, it still continues. Somehow I don’t become free of it. Many times I think of just leaving and going away and being on my own. Yet, somehow I sense that is not the answer, there is something else. And yet there are other times when I see my own dependence and yet I am not free of it. And also there is tremendous fear.
9:36 K: You have to make your questions, please, short.
9:42 Q: The relation between fear and dependence.
9:46 K: Fear and dependence. What is the relationship between fear and dependence.
10:01 Q: Could we discuss ambition and why we are so insensitive in our daily life?
10:11 K: Ambition and insensitivity in our daily life.
10:16 Now just a minute. Which of these questions shall we talk over together? That gentleman asked, is it possible to observe thought as it is taking place, or observe thought as it is over? The other question is, one is physically affected through an accident, through a disease, certain forms of illness, and does that affect the mind? And the other question is, what is the relationship between love and death? 11:14 And you said, is the personal psyche, or the universal psyche? And that gentleman asked, what is the relationship between fear and dependence? And your question, sir, which was action, is there an action which is so totally complete, that that doesn’t leave regrets, anxiety, pain and sorrow, and all that. Now which of these questions would you like to talk about?
12:04 Q: If we discussed dependence, would that cover many of the questions?
12:14 K: If we discussed dependence, would that answer many of the questions. Or, would you discuss action, action in daily life, the doing, the way of behaviour, the way of conduct, the way of a relationship in which all action takes place, is there an action that is so totally complete that it doesn’t leave a sad remembrance? Is that the question, sir?
13:08 Q: Or it would be dangerous.
13:12 Q: Yes, no remembrance.
13:14 K: Yes, shall we discuss that, or do you want to discuss something else?
13:22 Q: First question.
13:26 K: Would you like to discuss action?
13:35 Q: Yes.
13:36 K: It is not my... Whatever you want. All right, let’s talk about action. Perhaps in that we will include thought, what is the relationship between love and death, fear and dependence, and physical illness affecting the mind, and the psyche and universal. Can we do this? Do you want to do this? Please.
14:14 Q: Yes.
14:15 K: Right. What do you mean by action? What do we mean – please, this is a conversation, don’t go to sleep, this is a conversation between you and the speaker, together. I am not investigating and you are just listening, together we are going to find out if there is an action which is so whole, complete, total, that is doesn’t leave a single shadow of pain, regret, grief, hurt, and all that – right? So what do we mean by action? Please, sir, join with me.
15:07 Q: Action must be a creation.
15:10 K: Action must be a creation.
15:12 Q: How you meet the moment.
15:17 K: You see, you are now making a statement like ‘action must be creation’, and you are finished! There is no dialogue. But if you say – that is why I am asking: please, don’t offer opinions right off, what you think is action and hold on to it. Let us take it, examine it, go together – right, sirs?
15:49 So the first thing is to find out what we mean by that word ‘action’, the doing. Do we mean that which has been done, or that which will be done, the action in the past, or the action in the future, or the action which is now taking place. This is action. Action isn’t moving from here to there physically or taking a hammer and a nail and putting it in a wall, or driving a car. Actually action means that which is happening – right, sir? Not the action which has happened, or the action which is going to happen. 16:45 All this is also action: that which has happened, that which is happening, and that which will happen. Right? Right? Do we agree to this? Please. So what is the action that has happened? What is it the result of? What is the motive of that action? What is the impetus? What is the conclusion from which an action takes place? You understand? You are following all this? Or you are getting tired already.
17:39 Action has some kind of motive, pleasant or unpleasant, rewarding or painful, or under pressure, driven by various influences. So one has to find out what we mean by action. Is there an action which has no motive, which is not under pressure, which is not threatened and therefore act, which is not rewarding and therefore painful? So one has to look at the word very, very carefully, if you are willing. This is a conversation – right?
18:39 Most of our actions, as one observes, are based on a remembrance. Right? Or on a desire, or on personal reward or punishment, or an action based on an ideal, or on a belief, and so on. Right? So, please watch this for yourself, let’s examine it together. If an action is based on an ideal, on the future, that action is conforming, adjusting or imitating the ideal. Right? Therefore is that an action which is whole, complete, without leaving any mark of hurt, regret, and so on? You follow? So what is our action, yours and mine, the speaker’s, in investigating, what is our action based on? Pleasure, fear? Go on, sirs, examine it. I am investigating, you are all silent.
20:33 Q: Actions are based on necessity.
20:36 K: Necessity. That is, sir, necessity – I need food, so I go to the market if I have money, buy it – that is an action. I need clothes; if I have money, I go and buy it. Shelter, and so on. So on necessity, the needs, physical needs, and then psychological needs. Right? Right, sir?
21:10 Q: Do they exist?
21:16 K: What?
21:18 Q: Do psychological needs exist?
21:21 K: That is the question which we are going to find out. There are physical needs and actions, and actions based on what we consider psychological needs. One needs somebody to give one comfort, therefore dependence and action based on that dependence. Right? I need – what? – somebody to tell me how to live a different life, and I depend on that person.
22:29 Q: Is it possible for an action not to have a cause?
22:32 K: I can’t hear. The train is the voice.
22:35 Q: He says is it possible for an action not to have a cause.
22:38 K: Is it possible for an action not to have a cause – we are going to go into all this. Go step by step, please. You see, when you make a statement like that: is there an action without cause, you are asking a question which is hypothetical, and the answer must also be hypothetical. But if we go step by step, slowly, examining, and doing it as we are going along, then there will be no theoretical problems at all. Right? So please, in discussion, in dialogue, don’t jump to something. 23:33 See what our actions are based on, first, what is actually going on, either physical needs: food, clothes, shelter and the labour required to earn the money to have those, and psychological needs. It is a fact. This is what we have, physical as well as psychological, and actions are based on these two. Right? One recognises physical needs are absolutely necessary. Either you work – factory, digging in a ditch, teaching, carpentry, science, business, doctors – not politicians! – and so on, 24:38 and that is necessary. As society now is organised, we all have to work from morning till night for years and years and years. Just look at the tragedy of it. You may not like it but it is a fact. One goes to the office, factory, whatever one is doing physically to earn money, from the age of 20, 15, till you are almost dying, day after day, to the office, and so on, so on. That is how our society is organised. That is a fact.
25:28 Q: Do you call that action or is it reaction?
25:32 K: Do you call that action or reaction. It is both, because I need food, and if I don’t get proper amount of money, labour, I am jealous, anxious, all the rest of it begins. Therefore it is a reaction. So there is the physical need. Then one’s actions are based on psychological needs. Please, go into it.
26:05 Q: Psychological needs are different from desire?
26:08 K: We are coming to that, sir. Are psychological needs different from desire? Perhaps not. Or they are. Let’s examine it. Let us first see, or recognise and accept as a fact, that we need, apparently man needs, human beings need – the need may be false, we will find out – the need for action based on psychological needs. That is, one needs belief, one needs certain forms of conclusions, certain opinions, points of view. You need nationality, hierarchical approach. You need all this. Please, don’t deny it, it is a fact for most people. You may not say, ‘I have no psychological necessities’, that would be a most rare thing to say. Right?
27:36 So we must find out for ourselves: do we have these things as a need? Belief, opinions, judgements, conclusions, images – religious and otherwise – religious and images created by the hand and by the mind – you follow all these? Are these needs?
28:09 Q: What about despair, action which comes from despair?
28:16 K: Action comes from despair.
28:18 Q: What about inaction that come from despair?
28:22 K: That’s right. Wait. Sir, look, first, let’s look at ourselves, sir. What are your psychological needs, and are there actions born of those needs?
28:45 Q: Sir, I think that what I heard so far, it seems that the necessity has to be there for an action, and there is always a necessity for action, in some way or another.
29:00 K: That’s what we are enquiring. You are saying there must be some kind of necessity, need, for action. We said for physical needs there must be. But we are questioning whether we need, or are there necessities, psychologically, for action. I question it. I am not saying you must accept it. I say I doubt it. I am not sure. You understand? I am examining it. One is not dogmatic, I don’t take a position, I don’t refuse to move from a conclusion.
29:47 What we are trying to find out is, what is action. You see action in the physical needs, and action based on various forms of opinions, judgements, conclusions, convictions, experiences, beliefs, dogmas, dependence, and so on, so on – psychologically. And the speaker says – he questions it, you understand?
30:23 Q: Sir, it seems there’s two aspects of action that I need. First of all, action is not based on need. If it was, if it was based on true observation of a productive need, then there may not be so many problems. But most action is based on desires, on our conditioning, and our needs. So what is the right need to base an action on?
30:53 K: You are asking, are you, sir – please, if I am putting your question wrongly, please correct it – are you saying that we need psychological...
31:08 Q: No, I am saying that all action is not based on needs, correct needs. What would determine what is a correct need, instead of desire, and so on?
31:25 K: Yes, what is the correct need.
31:27 Q: Why do we have...
31:29 K: One moment, just wait a minute, please. What is one’s correct need physically – right?
31:40 Q: In other words, is there a strict separation between the one and the other? Is there a right separation between the two or it’s quite...
31:53 K: Is there a strict division between the psychological needs and the physical needs. You see, you are all... Now to answer that question: do physical needs go over to the psychological needs? I need a house – one needs a house, or a room to stay in, then in that room, one gets attached to the furniture, the attachment to the furniture is a psychological need. Right? Because without that furniture I feel a bit uncomfortable. So is there a demarcation at all? You see, unless you, please, go into this step by step, you won’t answer this question so quickly.
33:01 We are talking over together as two friends, investigating together, as a dialogue, as a conversation, what is action. We have said so far, there are the actions based on the needs, on needs – physical needs. One needs a shirt, a pair of trousers or a dress, one needs that, unless you are a nudist, then it’s all right! You need to have food, and to have food you have to work, enough money to go to the market, and so on. And you need – need a room, a house, but the need for a house becomes very important. One isn’t satisfied with a room, one wants a beautiful room, one wants pictures in it and old, antique furniture, if you can afford it. 34:16 Then as you have invested money in the antique furniture, in a lovely room, with a lovely vase and pictures, you are attached to it. And then you say, ‘I need those’. Right? ‘I can’t live without a picture in the room’, and it must be either a copy, an original, and so on, so on. That is, gradually I begin to depend on those things. So the furniture is me. Right? Do you question that? I am attached to the furniture, and I don’t want you to spoil it, don’t put it in the sun, don’t scratch on it, I hold it dear. And that furniture has become me. Right? And I act from that.
35:31 So we are going to the next step: is there a necessity for psychology to exist? Are there psychological necessities? We say, yes, it is a fact. The necessity of a belief, the necessity of dependence, the necessity of sex, the necessity of ambition, achievement, success. Right? And on all that my actions are based. That’s obvious, isn’t it? Right? Is this all wrong?
36:36 Q: No.
36:38 K: Please, look at it yourself, in yourself. One goes to India – sorry! – because one feels the need for instruction, for wisdom, for knowledge, for enlightenment, because the western world is too worldly, not interested in religion, and they go to India where there is dirt, romance, and squalor and gurus, and you go. Then you say, ‘I need those’. You follow? This is actually what is going on.
37:19 So we are now questioning why we consider that psychologically we need things. Right? That is what we are investigating. Don’t go back to the physical needs, we have finished with it. Now, do we need beliefs?
37:46 Q: No.
37:49 K: The gentleman says, no. That means you are free of beliefs. Now you’ll see what we mean by belief. Belief in something that cannot be proved. I believe – one believes in God – it can’t be proved. One believes in heaven – it can’t be proved. One believes that there are people living on the moon – not on the moon, somewhere else – one believes that, it can’t be proved. So we believe in nationality. Right? Right? No? Oh, my god. You are French, German, English, Indian, and god knows what else. Follow it step by step. Either you relinquish all this as you go along and say, ‘Sorry, I am not a nationalist’ – finished.
39:06 Q: Sir, may I ask a question? Don’t we have to ask ourselves first where those needs come from?
39:19 K: We are going to find out, we are going to go into that. How do these needs arise, what is the cause of it? We are going to find out in a minute if you have patience. So beliefs have become necessities. Talk to the Catholics, to the Protestants, to the Christian world that believe in Jesus, saviour, and all the rest of it – they believe. Right? And you go to India, they also have their gods – they believe. So why do they believe in something that cannot be proved – you understand? – that has no validity. Why do they believe? Come on, sirs!
40:20 Q: Because they love that sort of action.
40:27 K: Because, the gentleman says, they love that kind of action. Why do they love that kind of action?
40:35 Q: It gives them security.
40:37 K: Go into it, please. You enquire into yourself. You believe – don’t you? – if you are honest, in something or other. Or you don’t believe, and you go to the other extreme, which is the same. You understand? ‘I don’t believe in god, I am an atheist’. And both take a stand. You understand? You know what I mean, ‘take a stand’? That is, both remain convinced of their conclusions.
41:16 Q: Sir, belief in oneself is the same thing.
41:20 K: Belief in oneself. All right, let’s take that, belief in oneself. What is oneself? Oh, my god! What is oneself?
41:38 Q: My contents.
41:40 K: No, investigate it, please, talk it over with me.
41:48 Q: We try to find security in something else, like a belief.
41:54 K: Sir, the gentleman says, ‘I believe in myself’, so what is the thing you believe in?
42:03 Q: An idea, an image.
42:05 K: Just look at it, sir, look at it, examine it. Do you believe you exist because you have a body?
42:15 Q: Yes.
42:17 K: Yes. Do you believe in yourself because you have certain emotions, certain conclusions, certain points of view, certain way of behaving, certain idiosyncratic activities, name, form, bank account, or no bank account? All that you believe in? You don’t even... Please, examine it. When you say, ‘I believe in myself’, I say what? it is a strange thing to say, what do you believe in? In the knowledge that you have acquired?
43:09 Q: What is myself?
43:10 K: That is what I am examining, madame.
43:16 Q: May I suggest that we take an actual example? Most of the people who are present in this tent believe that you are enlightened.
43:32 Q: How do you know?
43:40 K: Please, sir, we are not talking who is enlightened, who is not enlightened, and how do you know. But we are talking about a man who says, ‘I believe in myself’, I say, what is this strange conclusion. Then I say, who is yourself in whom you believe?
44:04 Q: May I finish, sir? Let’s us say that I believe that you are enlightened.
44:11 Q: All right, sit down again!
44:24 Q: Let us say, that I don’t believe that you are enlightened. I don’t believe that you are going to help me, so I don’t have to believe that you will in any way help me.
44:41 Q: Why are you here?
44:48 K: I am sorry, sir, I don’t quite understand.
44:51 Q: I would suggest that I, me, this person, am the only one who can find out.
45:04 K: What is he saying?
45:06 Q: I don’t think this is very complicated.
45:13 K: Sir, one has to find out for oneself who he is. Now, two friends are meeting and talking over and say, look, who am I, in whom I believe so strongly? Right? He says, let’s investigate it. Don’t say, I am God, and stick to it, or I am the environmental reactions, or this or that. Don’t hold on, or take a position, let’s enquire into it, let’s go into it. Not that I am superior, you are inferior, or you are superior, I am inferior – two friends. So I say, I am asking, who is this entity, myself, in whom you believe?
46:05 Q: A piece of the absolute truth.
46:15 K: Oh, a piece of the absolute truth. You see, and then we are finished! There is no discussion possible.
46:27 Q: Well, if you say you believe in yourself, doesn’t that generally mean that a person has led life, he has had certain challenges in life, he has overcome some of these challenges. And from overcoming these challenges, or whatever the experiences were, he forms a certain image of himself, and when says he believes in himself, or she believes in herself, it is that image that they believe in.
46:59 K: Is this dialogue worthwhile?
47:05 Q: No.
47:06 Q: Yes.
47:07 Q: If we could go on.
47:09 K: As we are going on, is it worthwhile? So I am asking you, please, is it worthwhile going on with this dialogue?
47:22 Q: Yes, yes.
47:24 Q: I don’t know.
47:25 K: You are quite right, sir.
47:28 Q: Could we go back to action?
47:32 K: I am coming...
47:38 Q: That is real question, what I am, what is oneself, that is the real question, I think it is worthwhile.
47:45 K: Sir, that gentleman asked, amongst other questions, what is action. Is there an action that doesn’t bring sorrow? Is there an action that doesn’t breed contradictions? Is there an action that is so complete, so whole that it is finished without leaving any shadow of regret, of saying to oneself ‘I wish I hadn’t done it’, and so on? That is the question two people are discussing, you are the one and the speaker is the other. We are having a dialogue about it.
48:35 Q: Action issues from spontaneity.
48:46 K: Action is born out of spontaneity. Are we ever spontaneous? You see, you all...
48:57 Q: Sir, this is my action.
49:04 K: What, sir?
49:06 Q: What am I to do?
49:08 K: I am going into it, sir, that is just simple. You see, the gentleman asks, I have had a car accident, my body is affected, and it is affecting my mind – sit down, sir – what am I to do? Right? He is asking that question, because he has to find out, because he is in pain, he is confused, he says, ‘Tell me what to do’. Right? Are we in that position, any of you? Or is it all so casual a dialogue that you will listen and you will do nothing about what you have listened to?
50:09 You know, we have spent 50 minutes, and we haven’t come to any point. So I am asking, is it worth going on like this?
50:23 Q: No.
50:24 K: So what shall we do?
50:26 Q: Let’s investigate the point that we arrived at when we discovered something instead of going to something else.
50:39 K: Look, sir, that gentleman is concerned about himself, his pain, his anxiety, his nervous reactions from this motor accident. He is concerned. He doesn’t want theories, he doesn’t want about enlightenment, all that business. He says, ‘Tell me’. Right? And are you like that, in that position? Not, I hope you have not an accident, but are you in that position and say, ‘Look, I want to find out. I want to give my life to find out if there is an action which is really whole’ – right, sir? Are you giving your life to it? Or you are just sitting on the river bank and looking at the waters go by, never entering in the stream?
51:36 Q: There is no complete action.
51:43 K: Very few are concerned really about it. I am just questioning whether these dialogues are worth it at all.
52:04 Q: Why don’t we change from discussions. Let’s talk about discussions. You are one and we are a thousand. So technically, discussion is not really possible. Perhaps, you have to organise them in another way.
52:20 K: The gentleman says, you are one and we are a thousand, and you can’t really have a conversation with a thousand people. Just listen! You can’t have a conversation with a thousand people because thousand opinions, a thousand ways. That is why I said at the beginning, sir, please, let’s think together. Let us put aside our problems, our opinions, our judgements, our way of thinking, our conclusions, put all those aside and let’s think together. You won’t even do that. And when we meet two, or half a dozen, it will be the same problem. We have done all this; in India, in Holland, in America, groups, small groups, big groups, but nobody gives his life to find out.
53:24 Q: Can we not just discuss one problem?
53:29 K: I am doing one problem.
53:31 Q:...this gentleman’s problem.
53:32 K: That is the one problem I am discussing still. That is, when a body is affected by an accident, why does it enter into the psychological mental state – right, sir?
53:54 Q: Yes, sir.
53:59 K: Haven’t you such problems?
54:03 Q: Is it a false means of protection from facing?
54:07 K: Look, my nerves have been shattered through an accident. Right? A car has run over my leg, and that leg is paralysed, I can’t walk properly. And that affects my thinking, because I can’t get a proper job. Right? You don’t see all this! I depend on somebody to help me. So gradually I become anxious, I become frightened, I develop nervous ticks, and what am I to do?
54:55 Q: The question is, is my body myself?
55:01 K: That is what we are discussing, madame. We talked about it, but you all refused, you want to go off in different directions.
55:20 Q: Sir, I would like to suggest that there are a lot of us here who are in the same situation as the gentleman, but not physically, but in other ways also.
55:31 K: Yes, sir. That gentleman says there are a lot of us here, in that position, but not physically. Right? Now how will you talk over it, have a dialogue?
55:56 Q: I say that, only to say that I think the dialogue are useful for us. The conversation is very useful for me.
56:10 K: Yes. Look, sir, one’s problem is both psychological and physical. Right? Right? One is affected physically, and therefore the nervous organism has been upset, crippled, and it affects one’s thinking, one’s feeling, and one is frightened. That is one problem, which is the result of a physical accident. And the other is, equally one is crippled psychologically. Right? Psychologically one is crippled by belief, dogmas, and all the rest of it, dependence, attachment, fear, and so on. Now can we see these two facts first, not move away from that? 57:14 The fact one is physically crippled, and the other – psychologically blunted, crippled. Now what shall we do? Or you say, I am perfectly healthy, therefore I will walk out. That’s all right too, you understand? You understand what I am saying? Are you in that position, and say, ‘Sorry, I am not crippled physically, I am not mentally, psychologically, affectionately, I’m not – there is no ugliness, there is nothing crippled, and therefore I am perfectly healthy’ – right? That is a very rare person.
58:06 So we have got these two questions. What is the action – please, follow it – what is the action with regard to the one who has had physical calamity which is affecting his nerves and therefore his brain, his thoughts, his emotions, and all the rest of it, a result of an accident. And the other – psychologically crippled and equally frightened, equally nervous, equally inhibited, equally anxious and developing neurotic attitudes. Right? Both are similar. One you think is physical, the other is psychological, but both are similar. Right? Right, sir?
58:59 Now what is the action with regard to this one thing? Physically affecting the nerves and the brain, and the other – crippled by tradition, crippled by belief, crippled by attachment, crippled by various pressures, job – you follow? – they both come to the same thing. Right? Do you see that? Please. These two are not separate, they are one. Right? One is physical, one is psychological. The physical brings about the psychological results, which is what has happened to most of us, which is psychologically we are crippled. Now what is the action? Right? Right, sirs? Shall I go on with it?
1:00:05 Q: Yes, yes.
1:00:06 K: Ah, you see? Conversation, you and I are together sharing it.
1:00:14 Q: Sir, from this would I have an insight?
1:00:17 K: Just a minute, madame. Look, I will go into it. But we are going into it together. Not I go into it, you listen, then make an idea of it and then pursue it. We are doing it together now. Right? All right. He’s gone to sleep.
1:00:43 Shall we go into it. That is, we are having a conversation between you and me. Don’t bother about that gentleman, please. He is tired, he has had an accident, he is in pain, he must be quiet, leave him alone, don’t project your ideas onto him. Gosh!
1:01:05 So what is action with regard to this one thing? Human beings are crippled – right? – both psychologically and physically. Some are extravagantly crippled in both ways, others are medium, partially, and what is the action which will correct this thing? Is this clear?
1:01:33 Q: Yes.
1:01:34 K: Now let’s talk it over together. Why do we – no, wait a minute. Which is most important – this psychological aspect of this, or the physical aspect of this?
1:01:56 Q: Psychological.
1:02:01 K: If I know, or am aware, that I am psychologically crippled, and because I am psychologically crippled, it gradually affects my body. I have nervous responses, my nerves are on edge, I gradually develop a sense of isolation – you follow? – all the rest of it follows. If I am physically, it is the same thing. So I am saying, which is more important to consider, first? The psychological state of being crippled or the physical state of being crippled? You understand? To which do we give importance? I know the man who has had an accident, he says, for god’s sake, don’t talk to me about psychology, I am in pain, I have had an accident.
1:03:13 Q: I am psychologically aware.
1:03:26 K: I am asking you, sirs, and ladies, to which do you give importance? To the physical or psychological?
1:03:37 Q: Both of them.
1:03:38 Q: Psychological.
1:03:39 K: Careful, careful. If I am physically affected, would I consider psychology? See the difficulty. I have been run over, I am crippled and it is affecting my mind. My mind has already been affected by society, by my parents – you follow? Only this incident has added more to it.
1:04:16 So which is more important? I don’t neglect the physical. Right? I say I will go into it, first. I will go into it after I have understood whether I am crippled psychologically, or the physical is making me crippled, psychologically. So I am investigating, being psychologically crippled, the result of a physical accident, the result of living in a monstrous society, wrong kind of education, wrong kind of acquiring knowledge, and so on, so on, that has crippled my mind. So I see psychologically, if I can understand the whole structure of the psyche, then I can attend to the physical. But the man who is in pain, he says, ‘No, please, give me some kind of drug, some kind of opiate, some kind of thing that will quieten me down’ – right? 1:05:32 Then the doctor is important, not me. Right? But if it is psychological state, psychological crookedness, unclarity, crippledness, I think that can be cleared – you follow? That can be completely whole. Then with that clarity of mind I can attend to my physical ailments. Do we agree to this? Madame, I can’t hear. Perhaps somebody who has heard, sitting near to you, can explain what you have said. Nobody is willing to translate, so I can’t help you.
1:06:59 So I am saying myself, this being crippled psychologically, can that be made whole? That is the question, which needs action. I can’t sit down and say I will make it whole. Or go off into a monastery. It can’t be done. It needs action, I have to do something. Right?
1:07:26 Q: Sir, I am sorry to interrupt, but I feel that now we are putting our foot into an old, old trap. And the trap is that we sit here and watch you perform. We are perfectly sure we know it, we have seen you do it a hundred times. We know that in half an hour you can totally break out of all psychological problems, and probably physical and spiritual and everything else. Unfortunately, sir, maybe I am odd man out, if so, I may sense a certain hostility on the part of some members of the audience, who may feel that I am throwing a spanner in the works. They want to watch you break out on cloud nine; if so, I don’t want to interfere with them, I am happy to leave.
1:08:21 K: Avanti, sir. Go on, sir. Sir, I am listening to you. If they are antagonistic, let them be.
1:08:28 Q: I can leave immediately.
1:08:30 K: Come on, sir.
1:08:31 Q: So, sir, as I see it, it’s like this. Ten minutes ago, after having spent 50 minutes, you came to a point where you felt that we were all just pussy-footing around with the thing, talking theoretically, not really having the least bit of gumption to get into this thing. All we wanted to do was to theorise and watch you do the trick. Then in despair perhaps, you seemed to have washed your hands of the whole thing, resigned yourself to the fact that we were a lot of useless nincompoops, and decided to have a dialogue with yourself, which is what you have been doing for a long time. 1:09:15 If so, it seems to me that it can only harm me, because watching you, have a dialogue with yourself is very entertaining, may be a bit instructive, I've seen you doing a lot of times, but it is not going to get me anywhere.
1:09:32 K: No, sir. Quite right.
1:09:35 Q: Since it seems as though this is the only choice: either we have got to have the gumption...
1:09:41 K:...guts.
1:09:42 Q:...guts to have a real dialogue with you, which means we have got to care about this thing.
1:09:49 K: Yes, sir.
1:09:50 Q: It means we have to stop saying, how much benefit we are getting, and please, go along and carry on, and nobody should interrupt, and so forth. I mean even when our friend Krityan interrupted and said that he feels that most people here look on you as an enlightened person; you didn’t want to go into all that, but it is perfectly true. We do look on you as an enlightened person. Unfortunately the fact that we do so means that we can’t listen to you at all. And I don’t think we are listening to you.
1:10:25 K: That’s all. Yes, sir, I know this.
1:10:26 Q: So now just tell me what I should do, put me out of my problem, because to carry on sitting here I feel I just have to listen while you do your act. It is a marvellous act. I want to be in that chair, I don’t want to listen to you do it, I know you can.
1:10:44 K: Sir. I have made it perfectly clear, all along I have said, please, there is no authority, don’t say the other is enlightened, and all the rest of that business. I say, look at yourself – right, sir? be serious, be committed, put your whole mind into it. Right?
1:11:08 Q: Quite right, sir.
1:11:09 K: I have been saying this at every meeting.
1:11:13 Q: I don’t blame you at all, sir.
1:11:24 K: I have been saying there is no authority. I have been saying, please, the speaker is not at all important. You are important as a human being, let us talk about that. But apparently we don’t do that. So what shall we do?
1:11:45 Q: I don’t know.
1:11:47 K: I do know.
1:11:48 Q: You do know. What is it, sir? Give me any answer other than having a dialogue with yourself.
1:11:58 K: No, I don’t want to have a dialogue with myself. I can in my room, or on my walks, or with some few people, I can have that dialogue. That is not the kind of dialogue one wants. What is important, what is necessary, is that you, all of you, put your mind, your heart into this, not say, you are enlightened, we will listen to you. Wipe all that out. Right, sir?
1:12:27 Q: Quite right, sir.
1:12:29 K: But what am I to do – sir, look at it! I keep on, the speaker keeps on, insisting on this every day of his life: don’t follow, don’t imitate, don’t conform, think it out, observe. But our whole conditioning is the other. Right?
1:13:02 Q: We have to have an authority, there are too many people here.
1:13:12 K: Is it a question of too many people? Sir, there are not too many people if you really want to find out for yourself. Then your whole attention is drawn, and you are examining.
1:13:34 Q: Somebody must be in charge, we believe that, so it stops us from really listening.
1:13:39 K: I am not the chairman. I am not taking charge of each of the audience. I say, please, let’s work together, I say, let’s think together. Platform, sitting, for the speaker on a platform has no meaning, because it is only for convenience. Forget all that. Let’s think together. But you won’t even do that. What am I to do?
1:14:06 Q: Krishnamurti, I experience that you do it, I experience that you are doing it again. You are expressing your frustration, perhaps your disappointment about the audiences as it has been for years and years and years. I think the same thing will probably happen tomorrow and the day after. I will be finished quickly. I have been waiting to meet you in person for quite a while. I have read a book written by Rom Landau about his meeting with you, maybe 30 or 40 years ago, the same frustration, the same anxiety, the same disappointment you expressed to him then, you are expressing now. 1:14:49 What I experienced in the book was a man of real love, of real humanitarian concern. What I experience now is an older man, who makes side comments, who is frustrated, who says ‘what is going on?’ I think that we can continue, but it is not going to change. There has to be a different format. The question has to become more pertinent, more vital.
1:15:11 K: But, sir, you say the question should become more vital, more personal, more intense, I will do it.
1:15:20 Q: Why don’t you stop speaking and leave us to it?
1:15:27 K: Delighted! Wait a minute. Why don’t you stop speaking and leave us in the tent. Is that what you want?
1:15:45 Q: Yes.
1:15:47 Q: I don’t know.
1:15:52 Q: How can you make them awake?
1:15:57 Q: I think, a couple minutes ago we were talking about psychological and physical relationships and how they were both a kind of... So, the first point that I thought was important was that everybody had to realise that they had this psychological incapability. How many people really realised or even looked at our psychological shortcomings? How many people examine exactly what that all involves? No, don’t clap, but that is the point.
1:16:34 K: I would clap too, but I don’t under here.
1:16:40 Q: You have to acknowledge the fact that they are psychological cripples.
1:16:44 K: How many people are willing to acknowledge that they are psychological cripples. You can’t. Unless I say I am blind, please, help me, then I can do something. But if I say, ‘No, I am sorry, I see quite clearly’, there is no point.
1:17:05 Q: Most people were saying that they realised they were psychologically crippled, and at the time I felt the question was what to do, how to get over it.
1:17:23 K: I will point it out to you, and you will have to do it yourself. Is that right?
1:17:28 Q: Yes.
1:17:29 K: Will you listen then? And do it!
1:17:33 Q: What happens?
1:17:36 Q: How do you know?
1:17:38 K: What? What?
1:17:39 Q: He says what will happen.
1:17:52 K: What am I to do?
1:17:55 Q: It seems to me that uh...
1:17:56 K: No, please, this is a serious question. You won’t even have the courtesy to listen to find out what the man is saying. And then see if it applies to you. If it applies to you, then say, ‘Let me put my energy, my guts, my whole heart into it to be free of it’. You don’t do that. What am I to do?
1:18:28 Q: Some of us do that, Krishnaji. I have done it.
1:18:31 K: If you do it, so much the better.
1:18:34 Q: We can’t.
1:18:45 K: I can’t do what you are saying.
1:18:49 Q: Can we ask why the people who cannot do that and who keep on coming here year after year, they come here to say they cannot do it, but why can’t they do it? Can they tell us why they can’t do it.
1:19:04 K: I know it, sir. It will become another dialogue with myself. Will you listen why you cannot go into it yourself, go into the cause of it, break the cause and move out of that?
1:19:19 Q: How?
1:19:20 K: If it is pointed out, will you do it?
1:19:22 Q: Yes.
1:19:23 Q: It won’t work.
1:19:24 Q: How do you know?
1:19:26 K: I don’t know, but will you do it? I want to be a good carpenter, and I go to the man who knows, who is an expert, a master carpenter, or I learn from a scientist, because I want to be a scientist, I want to learn, I want to have a clear mind. But apparently you don’t. Or you go halfway and stop.
1:20:10 Q: What is the necessary action?
1:20:13 K: Will suffering help you? Will somebody hitting you on the head? Offering you a reward of heaven if you do this, this, this?
1:20:28 So one says to oneself: perhaps somebody amongst you will catch this. Right? Like grain thrown out, it might fall on the rocks, or on a fertile field, or just die by itself. But the man who is throwing out the grain he can’t help it. You understand? He does it. He does it, maybe out of affection, compassion, love, and all the rest of that business. And so he is not concerned where the seed drops. Right?
1:21:12 Q: Sir, let us go home now and put some fertiliser on ourselves.
1:21:16 K: I am doing that, sir. I am doing that. Will you listen? Will you say: this is my problem, I have got to solve it. I will put my life into it, my energy into it, my guts, my feelings, to find out. Will you do it?
1:21:42 Q: Yes.
1:21:44 Q: Sir, I would like to ask the gentleman a question: why does it not work? Could you answer that question: why it won’t work?
1:21:55 K: Sir, let him come and sit down. Please, sir, let’s get on with what I am saying, don’t bother, if they are wanting to come, who doesn’t come. Look, you’ve spent your energy telling somebody why you come. And I’m telling you, will you, as a human being, listen and put your whole energy into this, as you put your energy into earning a livelihood, when you want sex, when you want this or that, you put your guts into it. Why don’t you do it?
1:22:31 Q: That’s the question, sir: why don’t we do it? Why do we go halfway?
1:22:47 K: You see, at the end of nearly two hours, an hour and a half, we haven’t even discovered for ourselves, not I have a dialogue myself and do a performance like an actor, I am not that. I will walk out of this tent if I feel it was hopeless, and you will never see me again. I mean it. But I feel somebody amongst you will take the coin, somebody will say, yes, I have got it, let me go with you. And I will go on doing this all my life. Somebody will catch some fire. If you don’t, you don’t. That is not my business.
1:23:47 Q: It is.
1:23:59 K: Look, sir, an hour and a half. What have we done in the morning? You, not me. I am very clear what I am doing. Whether two people listen, or a thousand listen, I will go on, or nobody listens, it doesn’t matter, I will go on. So leave me out of it. But if you are willing to listen, go into it, we will go together into the very depth of it. But you must give your energy. It is like those people, having their own particular guru, and coming here, and saying, yes, I will listen to you. Or having their own opinions, conclusions and not letting them go. Our relationship is together. You understand? You and the speaker together take a walk into the whole psychological world. This is not my performance, it is you have to act. Right?
1:25:21 So shall we go on tomorrow?
1:25:24 Q: Yes, yes.
1:25:25 K: If we go on tomorrow, let’s do it properly: that you are really serious and want to go into it to the very depth of it – you, not me. Right, sir.
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