Krishnamurti - The truly religious mind is not a slave to time

Krishnamurti Subtitles

LO61T11 - The truly religious mind is not a slave to time
London - 25 May 1961
Public Talk 11

0:00	This is J Krishnamurti’s eleventh public talk in London, 1961.
0:08	Krishnamurti: We were saying that there is beauty, a feeling of beauty beyond the senses, a feeling not provoked by the things put together by man or by nature.
0:38	We were saying it is beyond these, and if one were to pursue into the inquiry of what is beauty, which is not merely objective or subjective, one comes to the same perception, to that same intense awareness of a feeling as one comes to it through meditation.
1:35	We were saying that meditation – which I think is absolutely essential, the meditative mind – is necessary, and we went into it fairly thoroughly, and we said that a meditative mind is an inquiring mind which goes through the whole process of thought and is capable of going beyond the limitations of thought.
2:39	And perhaps for some, it is extremely difficult to meditate because it may be that one has not thought about the matter at all.
2:54	But if one has gone into this question of meditation, which is not self-hypnosis, or imagination, or the awakening of visions, and all that immature business, one comes invariably, I think, to that same feeling, to that same intensity when the mind is capable of perceiving what is beautiful unprovoked, and a mind that is silent, still, and in that state discovers a position, a state which is not bound by time and space.
4:01	That’s what we were talking about day before yesterday evening.
4:09	And I would like to talk about, this evening, what is the religious mind.
4:23	As we have been saying from the beginning of these discussions, or rather, the informal talks, that we are trying to communicate with each other, that we are taking the journey together, that you’re not merely listening to a speaker with a prejudice or with favour, or with a personal like or dislike.
5:06	You are listening to find out what is true, and to discover what is true, amid so much false and immature thought and hopes and despairs, one has not to accept anything at all, even what the speaker is saying.
5:37	One has to investigate, one has to explore, and to investigate, to explore, one requires a free mind, a mind which is not merely a reaction from a prejudiced, opinionated mind, but really a free mind, a mind that is not anchored to any particular belief, dogma or experience, but is capable of following very clearly, precisely the facts.
6:26	And to follow facts requires a very subtle mind. And as we were saying the other day, fact is never static, never still, it’s always moving, whether the fact that one observes within oneself, and even the facts, objective facts, to follow them in all their subtlety.
7:05	The fact demands a mind that is capable, precise, logical, and above all, free to pursue.
7:22	And as we were saying, we would like to talk this evening about what is a religious mind.
7:40	We’re taking the journey together in this inquiry; together, which means you’re not rejecting or accepting.
7:56	Because it seems to me, in this present world with all its confusion, misery and turmoil, the scientific mind and the religious mind are necessary because that’s the only two real states of mind; not the believing mind, not the conditioned mind, whether it’s conditioned by a dogma of Christianity, or Hinduism, or any other religion.
8:55	Because our problems are immense, living has become more complex, and outwardly perhaps there is greater security – perhaps there will be no atomic wars.
9:13	And there is the fear of these wars, so perhaps there’ll be a lessening...
9:20	perhaps there may be wars in the distance, not in Europe, so one may feel secure, physically and inwardly.
9:48	And mind seeking security becomes a dull mind, a mediocre mind, and such a mind is incapable of solving its own problems.
10:12	And living in this world with its routine, boredom, the middle-class or the upper-class or the lower-class existence, the superficial life, and all the rest of it, to solve and to go beyond, to go deeply inwardly, there are only two ways: a scientific approach or a religious approach.
10:52	The religious approach includes the scientific approach, but the scientific approach does not contain with it the religious approach.
11:08	But we need the scientific spirit, the spirit that is capable of examining ruthlessly all the causes that bring about man’s misery, the scientific spirit that can bring about peace in the world objectively, feed mankind, give them house, clothes, for all of mankind, not just for English or for the Americans, but for the rest of the world.
11:57	One cannot live in prosperity at one end of the earth and the rest of the earth in poverty, in degradation, disease and squalor.
12:09	Probably most of you don’t know anything about all that.
12:17	But to solve all these immense problems one needs the scientific spirit which breaks through all the stupidities of nationality, all the political bargainings, the ambitions, the avariciousness of power.
12:48	But unfortunately, as one sees, the scientific spirit is mostly concerned with the improvement of things: going up to the moon or beyond, healing mankind physically, more refrigerators, better bars, more comfort, better cars, and all the rest of it.
13:24	That’s all right, but it seems to me that’s a very limited point of view.
13:41	We know what this scientific spirit is: the spirit of inquiry and never being satisfied with what it has found, always changing, never remaining static; the scientific spirit which has built the industrial world.
14:15	And where there is an industrial world without an inward revolution brings about a mediocre living.
14:33	Without inward revolution, the glories and the beauties of industrial world only make the mind more dull, more contented, more satisfied, more secure.
14:55	Progress in certain ways is very good, essential, but progress also destroys freedom.
15:08	I don’t know if you have not noticed it. The more you have of things, the less free you are.
15:23	And the religious people in the East have said, ‘Let’s put away things, they do not matter.
15:32	Let’s pursue the other thing’, and they haven’t found that either.
15:45	So we know, more or less, what the scientific spirit is, the spirit that lives, exists in the laboratory. Not the scientist; the scientist is probably like you and me, bored with his daily existence, avaricious, seeking power, position, prestige, and all the rest of it.
16:26	Now, what is the religious spirit? This is much more difficult to find out.
16:39	How does one find out when you want to discover something true?
16:53	We want to find out what is the true religious spirit, not the phoney spirit that prevails in organized religions, but the true spirit. How does one set about it?
17:16	I think one begins to discover what is the true spirit only through negative thinking.
17:28	I mean by negative thinking – and negative thinking is the highest form of thinking also – I mean by that: discarding, tearing through false things, breaking down the things that man has put together for his own security, for his own inward safety, the various defences and the mechanism of thought which builds these defences, to shatter them and to go through them rapidly, swiftly, and see if there is anything beyond.
18:38	To tear through all these false things is not a reaction to what exists.
18:52	To find out what is the religious spirit, surely, and to approach it negatively, one must see what one believes, why one believes, why one accepts all the innumerable conditions which organized religions throughout the world have imposed on the mind; why you believe in God, why you don’t believe in God; why you have so many dogmas, beliefs.
19:36	And by going through them and not hoping to find something more, that is, if one goes through all these so-called positive structures behind which the mind takes shelter, you may say that there’ll be nothing left, there is despair.
20:06	I think one has to go through despair.
20:15	Despair exists only when there is hope, hope of being secure, being perpetually comfortable, perpetually mediocre, perpetually happy, and when that state is not, then despair comes in.
20:41	For most of us, despair is a reaction to hope.
20:52	But to discover what is the religious spirit, it seems to me, the inquiry must come into being without any provocation, without any reaction. If it is a reaction, because you have not been able to find more comfort, more security inwardly, then your search is merely for greater comfort, greater security, whether in God, in a belief, in an idea, or in knowledge, experience.
21:42	And it seems to me, such thought, born of reaction, can only produce further reactions and therefore there is no liberation from the process of reaction which prevents discovery. I don’t know if I’m making myself clear on this point.
22:08	Perhaps we can discuss this after I have finished this evening.
22:17	So there must be a negative approach.
22:25	So the mind must become aware of the conditionings either imposed by society with regard to religion and morality, and the innumerable sanctions which religion imposes, and also rejecting those, one has cultivated certain inward resistances, conscious and unconscious, beliefs which are based upon experience, knowledge, which become the guiding factors.
23:24	So the mind which would discover what the true religious spirit is must be in a state of revolution.
23:39	I mean by revolution the destruction of the false... of things that have been imposed upon it outwardly, or imposed upon it by itself, for the mind is always seeking security.
24:09	So the religious spirit, it seems to me, has within it this quality of perpetual, constant state of mind which never builds, which never constructs for its own safety, because if one builds, if the mind builds with the urge to be secure, then the mind lives behind its own walls and therefore it cannot...
25:31	is not capable of discovering anything, discovering something new, or if there is something new.
25:49	So death, destruction of the old is necessary, the destruction of tradition, the destruction, the removal, the total freedom of what has been, of the things that it has accumulated as memory through centuries of many yesterdays.
26:22	Then you might say, ‘Then what remains? Because what I am is the story, is the history, is the experience.
26:37	If all that is gone, wiped away, what remains?’ But first of all, is it possible to wipe all that away?
26:50	We all talk about it, but is it possible?
26:59	I say it is possible – not by influence, because that’s too silly, too immature – but I say it can be done if one goes into it very deeply, brushing aside all authority.
27:32	That state of wiping the slate clean, which means dying every day to the things that one has accumulated, from moment to moment; that requires a great deal of energy and great insight.
28:07	That’s part of the religious spirit.
28:21	And another part of the religious spirit is the spirit of power in which is included tenderness, in which is included love. Let me put it that way.
29:07	I am thinking it... I am expressing it aloud, so if I use wrong words, wrong phrases, please pass it off, don’t stay with those words or those phrases.
29:22	As I said, another part of the religious spirit is this power which comes through love, which is, if I can put it, both the man and the woman.
29:53	But I mean by power something entirely different from the urge to be powerful, from the feeling of dominance, and that power that comes through severe control, abstinence, or the power of a very sharp mind which is ambitious, greedy, envious, that wants to achieve.
30:49	Such power is evil, whether it’s the power of the politician or of the priest, or the power or dominance of a husband over a wife, or a wife over a husband.
31:09	The power to influence people to think in a certain way is evil, whether it’s done by the communists or by the churches, by the priest or by the press.
31:31	Such power to me is utterly evil. I do not mean that kind of power at all.
31:39	I mean something entirely different, not only in degree but in quality, totally unrelated to this thing which is power, which is evil.
32:04	There is such a power, a something outside, not provoked by our will, by our desire, and because of the... in that power there is the thing that we call love, an extraordinary thing, and that is part of the religious spirit.
32:47	Love is not sentiment, has nothing to do with emotion, or the reaction to fear, or the love the mother has for her child, or the husband has for the wife, and all the rest of it.
33:20	Please follow this... go into it, don’t accept or reject; we are taking a journey together.
33:32	You might say, ‘Such love is impossible, such a state of mind, which is a love which is not merely a recollection, a remembrance, association’.
33:56	I think one will find it. One comes upon it darkly when one begins to investigate this whole process of thought, of the ways of the mind.
34:26	And this sense of power, which is not the power of the ambitious and the politician, and all the rest of the silly stuff; it’s the power that has its own being in itself.
34:58	It is energy.
35:06	The energy that is generated by the self, by the ‘me’ for the things it desires, pursues, is entirely different from the energy that has no cause.
35:32	And there is such an energy. That energy can only be found when the mind is free, is not tethered to time and to space.
36:03	That energy comes into being when thought as experience, as knowledge, as the ego, as the centre, the self, the ‘me’ which is creating its own energy, its own volition, with its sorrows, its miseries, all the rest of it – when that centre is dissolved, then there is that energy, that power with its love.
36:58	Then there is another part of the mind, of the religious mind, another layer, which is a movement which has not the outer or the inner, it’s a movement.
37:41	Please follow a little bit.
37:52	We only know the outward movement as the objective movement, and from that outward movement there is a reaction to that, and that which we call the inward movement, a going away from the outer, renouncing the outer, or accepting the outer as inevitable and resisting it, and cultivating in the reaction an inward movement, with its beliefs, with its experiences, with its... all the rest of that.
38:38	There is the outward movement, the going out: being ambitious, being aggressive, being...
38:46	all the rest of it, going out, and when that fails, turning in.
38:55	We never seek truth or God or whatever name you like to call it when the mind is happy.
39:03	When the mind is delighted in itself we never want... nothing; we don’t want even to whisper the name of God, or truth, because it’s in itself so intensely alive.
39:18	It’s only when we are miserable, when the outward things have failed, when you’re no longer a success, when you’re no longer having all the things you want, when you have trouble in the family, when there is death, when there is conflict, and all the rest of it, then you turn inwardly. That’s what most people, old people, do.
39:45	We never turn to religion, in the true sense of the word, when we are young, because all our glands and everything is working at top speed.
39:59	We’re satisfied with sex, position, prestige and money, fame, and all the rest of it. When those begin to fail, then we turn inward, then we become beatniks or some other... the rest of it.
40:17	All that’s a reaction; that’s not revolution. Revolution is not a reaction. Now, if one sees that very clearly, the truth of that, then there is a movement which is both the outer and the inner, there is no division. It’s a movement, it’s the movement of seeing the outward things as they are, precisely, clearly, objectively, and that same movement going within, not as a reaction; the same movement, like the tide that goes out and the tide that comes in, it’s the same water.
41:29	Going out is keeping the eyes, senses, everything open, alive, and the going within is the closing of the eyes. I’m using that as a way of telling you; you don’t have to keep your eyes closed. The going within is the inward look.
42:10	Having understood the outer, then the eyes turn inwardly, not as a reaction.
42:29	And the inward look, the inward understanding is complete quietness, stillness, because there is nothing more to seek, nothing more to understand and therefore complete stillness of the mind.
43:35	And it is this inward... – I don’t like to use the word ‘inward’, but we have understood...
43:43	it is this inward state that is creation; not the creation of things that man has produced, nor the inventions, nor the state of invention, nor the mind that is capable of inventing – that is not creation. The state of creation.
44:20	This state of creation comes into being only when the mind has understood destruction, and when the mind has lived in that state of energy, with its love, only then there is that state of creation.
44:55	Now, the part is never the whole. We have described the parts.
45:10	The part is never the whole – the spoke of a wheel is not the wheel, but the wheel contains the spoke.
45:24	You...? You can’t approach through the part the whole, but the whole is understood, not through the part, but when you have the feeling of the totality of what is being said, what the speaker has said about the various parts of the religious mind.
45:58	When you get the total feeling of it, then in that total feeling is included death, destruction the sense of power and love, and creation – the total feeling of it.
46:28	Now, the total feeling of this inward state is the religious mind.
46:40	But to come to that religious mind, the mind has to be precise, clear...
46:48	think clearly, logically, never accepting things outwardly, or the things which it has created for itself as knowledge, experience, opinion, and all the rest of it.
47:25	So the religious mind contains within it the scientific mind, but the scientific mind, or the spirit, does not contain the religious mind.
47:43	So the two... as the world is trying to marry the scientific world and the religious world, they want to marry them – it’s impossible. They will condition man to accept both.
47:56	But what we are talking about is something entirely different.
48:10	We are trying to take a journey together into the discovery – discovery – which means you have to find out, not accept what is being said; that has no value at all.
48:32	Then, if you accept, you’re back again in the old routine, and you’re slaves to propaganda and influence and all the rest of the...
48:39	or if you imagine, because I have described a little bit, and live according to that description, then you are... I mean, it’s too immature, too childish.
48:54	But if you have taken the journey together, and if you are capable of discovering it, then you can live in this world; then the turmoils of this world have a meaning, because in this total content, in this total feeling, there is order and disorder, isn’t there?
49:34	You understand? You must destroy to create; not according to the communists, but the disorder that exists in this religious mind if I can use the word ‘disorder’ – you know? – it is not the opposite of order.
50:09	Because we like order; the more bourgeois, limited, mediocre we are, we like order. Society wants order; the more rotten it is, the more orderly it is, that it wants.
50:31	That’s what the communists want, a perfectly ordered world.
50:43	And also the rest of the world also wants it.
50:52	And we are afraid of disorder. Now... I am using the word ‘disorder’ purposely, not as a reaction to the disorder that exists in the world and, as a reaction to the disorder, creating order.
51:13	I’m not using the word ‘disorder’ in that sense at all.
51:22	Creation is disorder, but that disorder has order because it’s creative. Oh...
51:43	Do you get it? ‘Bien’.
51:58	So the religious mind, the true religious mind is not a slave to time. When time exists, that is, as yesterday with all its memories, going through today and so creating the future and conditioning the mind; when time exists, this creative disorder is not.
52:56	So when the mind... the religious mind is a mind which has no future and which has no past, nor living in the present as opposite of yesterday and tomorrow, because in that religious mind time is included. I don’t know if you understand this.
53:42	So the mind can come to that religious state – and I’m using the word ‘religion ’ as a word to convey something totally new, not the religions of the world which are all dead, dying, decaying.
54:15	So the religious mind is a mind that can only live with death, with that extraordinary energy of power, of love.
54:41	Don’t translate it, ‘Do you love one or many?’ or all that kind of childish nonsense.
54:54	And it is only the religious mind that can go within. And the going within is not in terms of space and time; the going within is limitless, endless, not to be measured by a mind which is caught in time.
55:33	And that’s the only mind that’s going to solve our problems because it has no problems.
55:43	Any problem that exists is absorbed and dissolved on the instant, therefore it has no problems. And it’s only a mind that has no problems, a really religious mind that can solve problems and therefore such a mind has an intimate relationship with society, but society has no relationship with it.
56:35	So in that sense of that word ‘religion’, a revolution is necessary within each one of us; a total revolution, not partial.
56:56	All reaction is partial.
57:04	And the revolution of which we are talking about is not partial, it’s a total thing.
57:22	And it’s only such a mind that can be intimate with reality; it’s only such a mind that can be friendly with truth, God, or whatever you like, that can play with reality.
58:01	It’s eight o’clock, and perhaps we can discuss for a few minutes, if you want to discuss.
58:29	Questioner: Does the same mind create disorder and the same mind create order?
58:38	K: The gentleman wants to know does the same mind create order and disorder. I’m afraid you haven’t taken the journey.
58:57	Sir, there must be death for something new to be. Dying is disorder, according to you, so we say, ‘Does the same thing create order and disorder?’ Wait, something, sir... Words, phrases, the intellectual formulation of these questions has very little meaning with what we have been talking about.
59:38	You know, when you see something very lovely, immense, your mind becomes silent, doesn’t it? You don’t ask questions.
59:55	There, the mountain, the river, the lovely things that one sees just knocks out all the inquiry out of your mind, all the whispers and the sentimentalities, and all the rest of it; for the second it wipes it out because the thing is too great.
1:00:14	Then you can go back to your remembrances afterwards, but the wiping away is done by something outside; the wiping away is a reaction.
1:00:32	But if you have taken the journey – which I hope we have done together a little bit – then your mind is in that state which doesn’t ask questions, it has no problems. I explained all this.
1:00:53	Sir, a mind that is dying, dead, has problems; not a living mind, not a living river has no problems.
1:01:00	A thing that is vital, intense, moving has no problems because it’s living, moving, intense.
1:01:20	Q: I think you agreed that the state of human society leaves a lot to be desired. Now, is it possible for a person, or some persons, to achieve this religious state of mind and act upon a society in an effective way against all the other people who are acting from...?
1:01:48	K: Yes, sir. I was going to talk about that Sunday morning a little bit, what value has all this upon society. That’s your question. Q: Well...
1:02:04	K: Or one or two getting this, what value has all this on society, and what’s the point of the few, one or two getting this?
1:02:12	Q: Yes, and can we do anything about it without...? K: Can we do anything. Now, just a minute, sir. What is society? What does society want?
1:02:19	It wants position, prestige, money – you know? – all the things which it has.
1:02:29	It wants security. Its very structure is based on acquisitiveness, competition, success, and if you say something against all that, they don’t want you. You can’t help it. Q: Right.
1:02:55	K: I mean, if some of these so-called spiritual people, popes and – you know? – all the rest of them, begin to talk about, ‘Don’t be ambitious, don’t go to war, don’t kill, don’t be violent’, and all the rest of it, do you think they would have any following? Nobody would listen.
1:03:15	And I’m sure you won’t listen to what is being said, because you’re going to carry on your own lives, you’re going to pursue the path of ambition, frustration, security, which is really the path of death.
1:03:45	And you’ll listen, taking a little bit... taking bits and adding to what you already know.
1:03:54	What we are talking about is something entirely different.
1:04:01	It is something really quite extraordinary in its beauty, in its depth, in its... in its something.
1:04:13	But to come to it, to understand it, to live with it requires an enormous work, work to go within, to unravel the conscious and the unconscious mind, and the world about you. Or you can see it all with one flash and wipe it away.
1:04:51	But both require an astonishing energy.
1:05:06	I think we’d better stop, and we’ll continue Sunday morning, which will be the last talk here.