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LO65D5 - On change and meditation
London - 6 May 1965
Public Discussion 5



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s fifth public discussion in London, 1965.
0:09 Krishnamurti: If I may, I’d like to go on with what we were talking the other day; that is, if you’re not bored with what we have talked about.
0:44 I would like this evening, if I may, talk about change and about meditation.
1:22 Please don’t be so solemn. (Laughter)

K: I feel a little bit nervous.
1:43 (Laughter)

K: One must have asked oneself, I’m quite sure, whether one changes at all.
1:57 I know outward circumstances change - we marry, divorce, children, death, a better job, the pressure of new inventions and so on.
2:19 Outwardly there is tremendous revolution going on in cybernetics and automation, and you must have asked yourself whether we change at all; not in relation to outward events, but a change that is not a mere repetition or a modified continuity, but a radical revolution, a total mutation of the mind, whether it is at all possible.
3:37 And when one realizes that actually one doesn’t change, as one must have noticed within oneself, one gets terribly depressed, or one escapes from oneself, and so the inevitable question arises: is there change at all?
4:14 Or we go back to a period when we were young, and that comes back again.
4:39 So is there change at all in human beings?
4:50 I mean, have you... - if I may; I’m not talking personally – have you changed at all?
5:04 Perhaps there has been a modification in the periphery, but deeply, radically has one changed?
5:22 Or perhaps we do not want to change because we are fairly comfortable.
5:30 We have a government that looks after you, welfare state, an assured job, old-age pension and, you know, all the rest of it, so perhaps there is no motive to change.
5:58 And when there is a motive to change, it is change within the field of the known.
6:16 I would like this evening to find out for yourselves if you can bring about a real revolution, whether it’s at all possible, and I would like to go into that a little.
6:49 You see, for most of us, change - I’m talking about psychological change, not a change from house to house or from country to country, or going from one religious bigotry to another, and so on - that’s no change at all.
7:11 But I’m talking... we are talking about a deep psychological mutation, a transformation, a new mind, a totally different existence which is not in the field of time.
7:46 So one has to, if I may suggest, listen, not sentimentally, not aggressively, or doubting or questioning, but actually listen and so discover for oneself the art of learning about oneself.
8:29 And this act of listening will perhaps reveal that there is no change at all in our life.
8:54 We go on as we are, a little bit discontented, depressed, lonely, miserable, going on to old age, full of sorrow, unresolved problems and that’s our life, and for most of us, we get used to all that; our minds get so dull, heavy, stupid and we accept the inevitable and thereby get terribly bored with life, its routine, its utter, apparently, lack of significance, or we invent a purpose, a significance and according to that significance and that purpose, we try to bring about a pattern of existence, but it is still, as one observes, no change at all.
10:20 So do we change, or is there a change at all?
10:33 And if we do change, is it a movement which is not in time?
10:59 Change in space, of time, created by thought, or put together by thought is no change at all.
11:17 Because change brought about through will, which is time, which is the space between what I am and what I should be, the act of will is still within the field of time, isn’t it?
11:51 I want to change. I see I’m terribly unhappy, depressed, ugly, violent, with an occasional flash of something other than the mere result of a motive, and I exercise my will to do something about it.
12:25 I say I must be different, I must drop this habit, that habit, I must think differently, I must act in a different way, I must be more this and less that.
12:44 One makes tremendous effort, and at the end of it one is still shoddy, depressed, ugly, brutal, without any sense of quality.
13:06 So one then asks oneself if there is a change at all, can a human being change?
13:18 A change within the field of time, if one observes, is no change, isn’t it?
13:29 I hope that’s clear. I want to be peaceful. I want to be quiet, inwardly silent, aware, intelligent and vital, have the sense of beauty and I strive after it.
13:58 The striving becomes an effort and I’m never actually that, but I’m always just groping after it, so at the end of a few years or a few months or a few days, one gives it up, goes back to the old pattern, depressed, becomes cynical, gets irritable, takes to drink or to church, or whatever one does.
14:41 Or go to the analyst and explore the unconscious, taking months or years, if you have the money.
14:54 So we carry on that way, endlessly, till we die in despair, fear, and terrible sense of anxiety and guilt.
15:10 We know all that, we’re fairly (French 16:09) we’re fairly familiar with all that.
15:23 So when one asks oneself, ‘How... in what way can I...’?
15:33 Is it possible to change, without all this process, to be suddenly find oneself in a new dimension, which is the only change?
15:56 As we said the other day, the ‘how’ is disorder, the question, the asking, ‘How am I to jump from this to that?
16:11 How am I to bring about a change within myself so fundamental, so radical that I’ve a new mind, I’m a new human being?’ The scientists are talking about the coming of a new man, a new mind.
16:34 I don’t know what they mean, and I’m not concerned with it. I’m concerned, we’re concerned, if I am at all intelligent, not the coming generation, not what’s going to happen in a hundred years, or twenty years, or tomorrow, but what I am actually, whether it is possible to dissolve this helpless, hopeless endeavour that has no meaning.
17:14 So we ask ourselves, ‘How am I to do it?’ Now, the ‘how’ is very important to understand.
17:22 When we put to ourselves the ‘how,’ it implies time, doesn’t it?
17:30 A practice, a method, a system, a pattern to be followed, struggled after, and therefore it is time, it involves time, time being the space between me as I am and what I should be, or what is... something which I cannot imagine myself to be.
17:58 That implies space, and therefore, to cover that distance, time is necessary, even a second, even a day, or even a year.
18:14 And when we ask how, and seek a method, we think by pursuing a system, a method, a pattern of discipline, of order, we forget all the other pressures that exist around us, which are always influencing, modifying, and therefore there is always a contention, a battle, a conflict, a questioning, and therefore the ‘how’ essentially brings about disorder.
19:03 I think that one must be completely be free and understand it.
19:21 The ‘how’ implies either going back to an old pattern or the creation of a new pattern and the following of it, and hence the battle, the what I am and what I should be.
19:42 So it is a stupid question on my part to ask, ‘How am I to change?’/ Of course, unless one is a little bit neurotic, a little unbalanced, then one goes to various analysts and all the rest of it, and perhaps one gets a little changed and adjusts oneself to a society that is always in decay.
20:26 So we’re not concerned for the moment with the people who are unbalanced. Perhaps we’re all a little bit unbalanced but...
20:38 (Laughter)

K: So then how is - I’m using the ‘how’ merely as a question – then how is one to find oneself in that?
21:06 Now, I think here comes the question of meditation.
21:20 I’m not... we are not talking of meditation as a method – you understand?
21:32 – therefore it’s not... it has nothing whatever to do with method because method is the ‘how’ and we have pushed that aside as being inadequate, immature, juvenile.
21:59 To put the same question differently, any change in time is no change.
22:08 We’re talking of a fundamental, radical mutation and a change in time is no change, and so I must... mind must discover a new movement, which is out of time.
22:42 And all movement of the mind is in time, as thought, as pleasure and the duration of pleasure.
23:00 I know that, I know that time, and I see in that time there is no change, and I must...
23:12 there must be a movement which doesn’t belong to this time, because I must have time.
23:26 You follow? I wonder if you... I’ll explain what I mean.
23:37 I see the time which mind, thought has built, put together, is a movement which brings sorrow, pleasure, agony, and it has its own movement, its own evolution, its growth and decay.
24:04 I know that very well. So, the mind cannot ride on that movement.
24:20 There must be a movement which is not of this nature, and the mind must discover it, which is not of this time, but of a different time altogether - if I can use the word time to indicate a movement which is not bound by the psychological time which I know, but by a time that is... that has no beginning, no end.
25:26 It is a movement. It is a movement which doesn’t belong to this dimension at all.
25:38 That’s speculation – you understand? - when I say there must be, that’s a speculation, isn’t it?
25:53 So I go off on that. I want to discover it, and so I pursue that.
26:14 That demands a heightened sensitivity, and so we play with drugs, with every form of stimulation, hoping to capture it, and having captured it, then repeat the pattern.
26:47 So I see that any movement of the mind, any movement, must always be in time, and yet my mind wanders, tremendously active, projecting ideas, visions, struggling, trying to concentrate, trying to restrain - it is endlessly in movement.
27:47 And I see, it sees, rather, itself in a movement, and therefore it tries to... it makes tremendous effort to be quiet.
28:08 This enforcement, this discipline, this conformity to a pattern in order to arrive at that quietness is called generally meditation, which of course is too childish and... it’s too absurd.
28:32 So... but yet I see the mind must be extraordinarily quiet because I know that any movement in any direction, at any level - movement towards God, towards peace - any movement is always within time.
29:04 You see the problem? So here I am, having a mind which is fairly sane, fairly rational, healthy, and it wants to change.
29:37 It must change. The way it lives is too stupid, too unintelligent; it has no meaning, the way it lives, and so it says, ‘I must change,’ and it proceeds to change along the... and it rejects that, if it is intelligent, it says, ‘No, that’s too absurd.
30:01 I’ll repeat the pattern over and over again, modified.’ And it sees also that there is a possibility of a change when it’s completely quiet, so it struggles to be quiet, which again is within the borders of time.
30:39 So it must change immediately, or not at all.
30:55 I don’t know if you are... So I can’t look to tomorrow, I can’t practice, I have no time for discipline – you follow?
31:06 - conform myself to a pattern which is supposed to be... which will give me that peace or that sense of silence.
31:19 So I reject all that. I don’t know if you... You’re following, not merely verbally, but actually – you know?
31:38 - inwardly? By understanding all this, my mind has become astonishingly sensitive and alert, tremendously aware of itself.
31:58 I don’t know if... Right? But the difficulty is that very few have come to this with terrific energy, because when you reject time, in the sense we are using time, as we talked about it, all movement , conscious or unconscious movement in any direction has come to an end.
33:08 Can I go on with this?
33:23 Many: Yes.
33:24 K: No, no; no, no. Are you doing it, or you’re merely following the words?
33:40 Because this implies, doesn’t it, a tremendous, non-experiencing mind which is completely alone, because it’s understood loneliness, its own loneliness, isolation, its self-centred activities which creates walls round itself, its moralities which is immoral, its virtues which are not virtues at all, it’s mere adjustment to the pattern.
34:54 It has finished with ambition, greed, envy - you know? - all the things that we are going after: the pleasure, the sense of power, domination.
35:13 It must finish, otherwise it can’t proceed.
35:21 And how one finishes it, these things, is very important.
35:28 If you say, ‘I will gradually do it,’ of course, that’s finished.
35:44 They must drop away without any effort.
35:53 You know, if you have a habit, smoking - I am taking that as... or the habit of envy; let’s examine those two - the physical habit of smoking and the habit of envy.
36:29 Can you drop smoking, because it gives you certain stimulations of pleasure, something to do with your hands – you know? – all the rest of it, because everybody does it and all that, social... and so on, can you, if you’re a smoker or a drinker, whatever your particular habit it is, drop it immediately, without the exercise of will, without motive?
37:15 If there is a motive, then it is pleasure or pain, and therefore back again.
37:23 So can you drop that habit completely, immediately?
37:40 If you cannot, you’re back in time, and therefore there is no release from a habit – I don’t know if you’re following all this - therefore you’re caught in time.
38:11 And envy, which is so deeply ingrained in most people. You know, envy takes so many forms, not only the envy of a man who is more intelligent, who is famous, and so on, but also the envy which is always comparing, comparing.
38:43 For it, the ‘more’ is important: the more knowledge, more information – you know?
39:04 - competition, trying to struggle, trying to understand, trying to become intelligent, trying to find God, doing this and doing that – you know? - more, more, more.
39:15 Not only more, better bathrooms and refrigerators, but psychologically more.
39:26 And can one see the implication of it instantly and drop it, without analysis, without seeking the cause of envy, which we’ve gone into, not allowing time to interfere with it at all, and therefore ending it immediately?
40:02 To end this thing, these habits immediately, there must be a sense of awareness, obviously.
40:12 You must know what you’re doing with your hands. You must be aware how deeply ingrained this envy is, aware without judgment, without choice, but mere awareness which sees and acts.
40:44 It can only see and act instantly when it is aware of the whole implication of envy, and the understanding of that envy, and the structure, the implication is not of time.
41:05 You can see it instantly. I do not know if you have gone into this being aware, what it means.
41:32 There’s nothing mysterious about it; you don’t have to practice it.
41:40 It begins with the outward things: being aware of the tree, the people, the colour, the noise, the endless chatter, the escapes outwardly, the shape of the room, the colour of the room, the... – you know?
42:05 - begin there and ride on that tide, come in, go inward.
42:19 And you can only ride on that tide which is coming in if there is no choice, no comparison, no condemnation, just ride, and therefore, out of this, there is physical order, which is obviously necessary; physical order which is austerity, which is austere.
43:16 For most of us austerity is harsh, a disciplined result, a denial, a sacrifice, a conformity, and therefore, when there is discipline, a conformity, a forcing, it becomes violent, and generally all austerity is the denial of affection.
44:05 But when one is very aware of the words, thoughts, the whole structure of the mind, then there is order.
44:29 And one must have order, because that is the essence of virtue.
44:45 Not how many clothes or how many houses, or no houses or just a loincloth, but out of this austerity there is simplicity - not in things, not in clothes; inwardly.
45:16 So the mind, having brought order, therefore very sane and therefore with no illusion, because it’s only time that creates illusion, as thought.
45:52 Then there is a movement which is silence.
46:08 Now, all this is meditation.
46:18 It doesn’t matter, you can do this while you are riding in a bus.
46:31 You don’t have to take special posture, take deep breaths, all that – you know?
46:43 – it has very little meaning, all that, because a stupid mind can sit very erect, practice breathing indefinitely, it will still remain a stupid mind, and its gods will be still stupid.
47:23 So we are talking about a meditation which is a natural process... – ah, sorry, not a process – which is a natural thing.
47:47 So if one has gone that far - I hope some of us have; I don’t know; you will know for... no, you won’t know for yourself.
48:04 A mind that is aware of itself as silent is not a silent mind.
48:17 It is a mind which is experiencing, and therefore there is the observer, the experiencer and the thing experienced, and when the experiencer experiences silence, it is not silence, therefore the question becomes: Can the experiencer cease to be, immediately?
49:07 And to understand that, one has to understand pleasure, which we tried to go into the other day.
49:27 And you can see what gives continuity to pleasure, which is thought, thinking about it.
49:36 I take pleasure, oh, in something or other, and I think about it, so I give strength, vitality, nourishment to that which has been pleasurable.
49:57 And if thought doesn’t give continuity to pleasure, there is the end of pleasure immediately.
50:05 I don’t know if you have gone into it; you will see it.
50:12 Which is, you cannot deny a reaction, but to give continuity to reaction in the form of pleasure or pain brings about the duration of time.
50:46 Is this at least verbally clear so far?
50:49 Q: Yes.
50:50 K: At least, I hope I’ve made myself clear.
51:01 You know, conceits, vanities, all that’s gone.
51:16 So the mind becomes extraordinarily quiet, and so does the body, the nerves, and the brain cells themselves.
51:36 I don’t know... Ah? You know, the brain functions, most of us, only along certain lines, in certain grooves, which we constantly are using as memory, as routine, habits, reactions - the familiar groove, and so the brain becomes more and more insignificant, dull, weary, the brain itself, the cells itself.
52:29 I don’t know if you haven’t observed it. I may not be talking scientific language, but we know what we’re talking about.
52:45 And that brain has to be activated, that brain has to become tremendously active, and to bring about this intense activity, one has to be aware of everything you do.
53:12 I hope you’re following all this.
53:25 So the mind, the brain, the nerves, the body, everything is – if I may use... - is full of energy because it has brought about order, and because it has order, it is virtuous - not the foolish thing called virtue.
54:02 So one has order, an order which has come about through awareness without any sense of conflict.
54:21 Now, that is, so far we have used time, and that’s all we know: time as pleasure, time as pain, time as a movement in bringing about a change, and so on - time.
54:56 Psychologically I use time in order to become something, in order to change, in order to establish a better relationship with my wife, with my neighbour, with my husband, with...
55:15 you know? And there is an understanding of all this, there is a total rejection, not partial, a total rejection of time.
55:35 Not the physical time, because you’ll miss your train and bus.
55:43 Now, the mind, because it has... there is tremendous order, naturally comes to a point when it has no movement of any kind because it’s no longer experiencing itself as a movement or not as a movement.
56:22 I wonder if... Does somebody understand all this?
56:32 Now, I’ll go on.
56:41 It is silent because it has got tremendous energy, because it’s tremendously active, not in doing something – I don’t know... - not in pursuing something, not trying to transform this...
57:10 It has no movement, therefore it’s completely still, and therefore, being active, still, it’s full of energy without motion.
57:26 I don’t know if... (inaudible). It’s really quite extraordinary if you go into it.
57:42 And please, I’m not saying this a reward for your listening or for coming here.
57:54 So, the mind, being full of energy has... without motion, without movement.
58:06 You go into it some... I wish I could discuss with some people who have done all this.
58:21 You see, then what takes place? Now, unless you have done this, for you this is speculation, but I talk about it, we talk about it because to indicate anybody who has gone into this, that in this stillness, which is active, full of energy, a mind like that which is completely still, there is an explosion, and this explosion is the movement at a different dimension and of... of time.
59:15 I don’t know... You know, after all, what is creation?
59:33 I’m not talking of a gift to paint, a talent to write or the capacity to do great research and invent.
59:49 I... those... that’s... I don’t mean that creation at all. That’s just... that’s all right.
59:58 Q: Do you mean existence, or living?
1:00:02 K: Ah, ah, ah, ah... I asked what is creation because most of us are second-hand people, and what we create, what we bring out, what we express is still second-hand.
1:00:34 You may be a marvellous painter, well-known, selling your pictures for $250,000 or what...
1:00:48 God knows, but is that creation?
1:00:59 Is that the expression of a creative mind?
1:01:10 And yet everyone wants to express. If you have got a talent, you burst your bones to express it.
1:01:18 If you are a second-hand writer, you will push it out, and we think we are very creative people, but all that we would say is not creation.
1:02:05 Creation is something that must be explosive each time, time - you understand?
1:02:20 - not each time. You... (inaudible). So, we don’t know what creation is, because my mind is not only second-hand, a thing that has lived for two million years, it has nothing new in it.
1:03:08 If I have a talent as an artist, I try to find new expressions - without arms, with one eye, or whatever it is, new objective painting, and so on and on and on, but there is nothing new, inwardly.
1:03:32 And as long as the mind doesn’t discover that, it must live in routine, in boredom, in repetition, in... all the rest of it.
1:03:59 So creation is very important, and to explode in this creation, the mind must be completely quiet, and all energy without any action.
1:04:39 I don’t know if you are following all this. Like a kettle, which is boiling, and the steam that’s escaping, if there is no escape, it bursts.
1:05:05 And it’s only then that there is something totally new. Well, sirs?
1:05:10 Q: If I can make a suggestion, Krishnaji, I think we all... (inaudible) of becoming gods.
1:05:34 I mean, a god is not a person but a state of consciousness and to the extent that we achieve our godliness, we are out of time altogether.
1:06:15 We are in the eternal.
1:06:16 K: I’m... there is nothing to be said to that. You see, madame, we may be gods, we may be eternal, we may be this, we may be that. The Indians, the Hindus, have a marvellous system for all that, but that isn’t good enough.
1:06:38 It’s what I am now, actually - my state of a bourgeois, second-hand mind, my miseries, anxieties, quarrels, prejudices, the battles, the agony, the despair, hopes - I am all that.
1:07:07 I can imagine what I am supposed to be, but the ‘supposed to be’ is not a fact, because I’m in...
1:07:20 every day I cry. Oh, for God’s sake. Every day I’m torn to pieces by my own thought, depressed and I’m concerned to change that completely, that’s all.
1:07:48 What happens after, when there is such tremendous, radical change, what happens after, you will find out.
1:08:03 Q: To find out, if there has been once, this explosion, you want it again.
1:08:16 K: Ah, ah, ah; ah, that... no, no, no.
1:08:23 There is no... If there is an explosion, as the lady says, you want it again. There is no explosion if there is an experiencer. Full stop. That’s why I very carefully explained all that.
1:08:41 Q: Sir, if there is no effort, if there is no method, any transition into a state of awareness, any shift into a new dimension, must be a completely random accident and therefore unaffected by anything you might say on the subject.
1:08:58 K: Ah, no, sir. I didn’t say that. I didn’t say that. I said one has to be aware.
1:09:18 By being aware, one discovers how one is conditioned. Don’t you know, sirs, by being aware, I know how I’m conditioned: as a Hindu, as a Buddhist, as a Christian.
1:09:39 I’m conditioned as a nationalist: the British, the German, the Russian, the Indian, the American and the Chinese now.
1:09:55 I am conditioned, and we never tackle that.
1:10:02 That’s the garbage we are, and we hope something marvellous will grow out of that garbage, a new phoenix, but I’m afraid it’s not possible.
1:10:32 So being aware doesn’t mean a chance, an irresponsible, something vague happening, but you will... if one understands the implication of awareness, your body not only becomes highly sensitive, but the whole... your whole entity is activated; there is a new energy given to it.
1:11:16 Do it and you will see. Don’t sit on the bank and speculate about the river; jump in and follow the current of this awareness and you’ll find out for yourself how extraordinary our thoughts, our feelings, our ideas are limited.
1:11:49 Our projections of gods and saviours, masters – you know? - all that becomes so obvious, so infantile.
1:12:00 Q: This brings a most unfamiliar state of mind... (inaudible).
1:12:20 K: This brings about a very unfamiliar state of mind.
1:12:27 That’s just it, sir.
1:12:34 Q: One is not at all certain whether there is an inside or outside.
1:12:48 K: Oh, there is definitely outside. There’s no uncertainty about the outside.
1:12:50 Q: One is not certain whether the consciousness is outside or inside.
1:12:55 K: There is outside: there are the lambs, there are the trees, there are the houses, there are... I see these things. There is the body. I see the outside. But as we don’t know the inside, what is behind the... what is inside the house, and what we know is only to breed more security, and therefore we are afraid to be uncertain.
1:13:36 We only want security, certainty, and that’s why we become very familiar with the things we know, and therefore we hold on.
1:13:54 Sir, mustn’t...
1:14:02 any creation to take place, mustn’t it have emptiness, which is space?
1:14:23 And you can’t be sure, certain of space, and you can’t be sure and certain that in this space something will happen.
1:14:37 Oh my Lord. (Laughter)

K: You see, that’s just it, we are so frightened to be alone.
1:14:56 One can understand one can’t live with complete insecurity, physically. You must have food, clothes and shelter. One must, that’s accepted; don’t even discuss it.
1:15:13 But to assure food, clothes and shelter for everybody, the inward mess must come to an end.
1:15:24 Can’t be divided into nationalities – you know? - all that stupid stuff.
1:15:38 So we want outward security without doing anything inwardly, and when there is outward security, as there is in this country and other countries, the mind soon begins to decay, commit suicide, violence, delinquency, grown-up delinquency as well as children delinquency, every form of amusement, entertainment - you know?
1:16:16 – that’s going on, what’s going on. So, one has to have this extraordinary sense of alertness, awareness, which is not something vague and irrational, and has no... – you know? – all that stuff, but it is very factual.
1:16:53 Q: Sir, what you say can only be a hypothesis for somebody who hasn’t explored where you have explored and...
1:17:12 K: Obviously, sir, obviously.
1:17:14 Q: ...and for somebody who does know that state of awareness, it adds nothing, so why do you go on talking, sir?
1:17:28 K: Why do I go on talking?
1:17:39 First of all, not to get a kick out of talking.
1:17:51 You know, addressing an audience, small or large, as I generally do in India, enormous audience, not to get a kick out of it, not to feel tremendously important.
1:18:02 I don’t. You will say, ‘How do you know you don’t?’ (Laughter)

K: Wait. Because I’ve gone into it. I’ve stopped talking, watched myself, and I’ve never got a kick out of this talking to people.
1:18:24 Never. So it is not a great importance.
1:18:33 Then, is it to help people? Please listen carefully. Is it to help people? No, that implies a form of conceit: ‘I know and you don’t know, therefore let me teach you,’ therefore there is the relationship of the teacher and the disciple, the follower and the leader, which is abhorrent, which is Hitler and all that business, religious or political.
1:19:24 It is not that either. Right? So it is not... amusement, an entertainment, satisfaction, fulfilment that one talks, nor to help people.
1:19:46 Either you help yourself, or nobody is going to help you.
1:19:57 So it’s not a relationship of a teacher and a disciple. Then is it to express yourself – you know? - like a poet, artist? No. When one denies all that, what have you left?
1:20:22 Q: Pleasure. Many: (Inaudible).
1:20:27 K: Please, this is very serious, this is not an amusement.
1:20:35 Q: Oh, please finish; please finish.
1:20:37 Q: Communication.
1:20:38 Q: What you have left is a friend coming to you, asking... (inaudible).
1:20:41 K: No, no... I’m not concerned with that. He... gentleman asked, ‘Why do you speak?’ not why you come.
1:20:46 Q: Sir, but you speak because your friend asks you to discuss it with him.
1:20:52 K: No, I don’t. That is, if they want to. No sir, he has asked a question, you’re not following it. Sir, when you yourself do it, sir, when you’re not using the audience for your satisfaction, when you’re not using another to help another, in order to feel yourself a helper, doing good; move away all those, what have you left?
1:21:32 Why do you do it?
1:21:37 Q: (Inaudible)... not seeking for...
1:21:42 K: I’ve (inaudible) all that, I said all that.
1:21:48 Q: (Inaudible).
1:21:49 K: Ah, wait a minute, wait a minute. Love. Are you doing it out of love - is that it?
1:22:02 Q: Yes.
1:22:05 K: Oh, Lord. (Laughter)

K: Because, sir, look, you’re asking questions that have no meaning.
1:22:21 Q: Is it that you want to share it?
1:22:29 K: You have not meaning; it has no meaning.
1:22:37 What has meaning is to exploit people, use the audience, help them and therefore become...
1:22:45 all the rest of it. That has... that’s what one knows: help, service, goodness, doing good.
1:22:59 When you see all the absurdity of all that, what have you?
1:23:17 When you have done that, ask the question – right? - then ask me.
1:23:29 If you have done all that, then you won’t ask the question.
1:23:39 Then our relationship is entirely different.
1:23:51 Right, sirs.