Krishnamurti - Looking without conclusion

Krishnamurti Subtitles

MA71DYP - Looking without conclusion
Madras (Chennai), India - 18 January 1971
Discussion with Young People

0:00	Identification: This is J. Krishnamurti’s discussion with students in Madras, 1971.
0:09	Krishnamurti: Well, sir, it’s up to you - what shall we talk about?
0:20	Questioner: Could you talk for a little bit about your experience, perhaps long ago, that led you to discover the nature of things?
0:34	K: I couldn’t remember it. (Laughs)
0:52	Q: Could you tell us about that state of innocence that you spoke about, in which a person, assuming a person was hurt, that state when there is no suffering of the individual?
1:07	K: No, not describe, sir, let’s discuss it. Most people are hurt, aren’t they, from childhood, by their parents, by their friends, by other boys. They get terribly hurt, don’t they, from childhood, and through life we are hurt, aren’t we? And that leaves scars, doesn’t it? Are you aware that you have scars of hurt? You are hurt, aren’t you? Of course. Don’t be nervous, I mean we are talking. Come and sit here. Go on, come on. And what do you do about them? You have a collection of hurts, scars, wounds, and what do you do about them? Keep them?
2:44	Q: Brood over them.
2:47	K: Brood over them, keep them – is that what you do? I used to know a man, every morning he took out a piece of paper on which he had written the people he hated most. So every morning he used to take out the list of the people he hated most and read them all. He spent about a quarter of an hour before he went to the office. Nice, isn’t it? So you have these collection of hates, have you? Hurts? And do you keep them?
3:35	Q: It’s there.
3:39	K: It’s there - what do you do about them?
3:43	Q: I don’t know what to do.
3:49	K: Why do you keep them? Is it because you don’t know what to do about them? If you knew, would you get rid of them, so that your mind never again gets hurt? Should we go into that? I’ve been hurt, one has been hurt, and what do you mean by being hurt? Either one has – you see, I do all the thinking, you just listen, you don’t work with me. Why does one get hurt? Either one has an image of oneself, thinking I am a great person, or a certain image of oneself, and that image gets hurt. Right? Somebody insults and it is that image which I have made of myself that gets hurt. That’s one factor. The other factor is: one is very sensitive. If one is sensitive, you know, not only to music but to everything, sensitive, and when that sensitivity is shocked there is a hurt. Right? Image, sensitivity – what do you think are the other factors of this hurt? Come on, sir, you must discuss, not just listen. What do you think are the factors?
5:52	Q: The images of what should be that we carry.
6:04	K: That’s what we said. We have the images. We have our own self-projected images of ourselves - what should be, what might be, what I am, and so on. These images get hurt. So we said that’s one of the factors of getting hurt. Right? The other factor is that one is very sensitive, you know, like a plant. You’ve seen those sensitive plants that you touch, they curl up? We’re like that. And what are the other factors, do you think, why one gets hurt?
6:48	Q: Being previously hurt you build a wall. You are sensitive to touching it.
6:54	K: That is, one has walls of resistances. I’ve been hurt before and I don’t want to be hurt again, therefore I isolate myself. Right? Isolating myself means building a wall round myself. And that wall gets always hurt. As long as I have a wall, I must always defend it, and therefore there is always attack. It’s like the army preparing all the time. So that’s another factor, which is, image, sensitivity, resistance. Go on, sir.
7:38	Q: Thought. We think about something and get hurt.
7:45	K: Wait, wait. Is that the reason you get hurt – thought?
7:50	Q: Maybe identification.
7:53	K: Wait, sir, let’s take that, see. We have got three facts now. Not suppositions but facts. Which is, I have an image about myself, projected by myself, thinking I must be somebody, or afraid I am not somebody, identifying myself with something, which is still projecting my image of myself. That image gets hurt. Right? Then, I’m sensitive, like a plant. I don’t... I’ve been hurt so much I shrink in myself. That’s two. Three, we said any kind of resistance - you understand what resistance is? – building a wall round myself to protect myself, will inevitably be hurt, bring hurts. So there are three factors. And you suggested thought. What do you mean, thought getting hurt?
9:11	Q: Like you compare yourself.
9:16	K: Which is the....
9:17	Q: Something happens and you say that the other person is more popular.
9:25	K: Yes.
9:26	Q: Or the other person...
9:27	K: ...is more intelligent and so on. But that is still in the field, that is still within the field of image. You follow? So those are the three factors we have. Now what…
9:39	Q: Also dependence.
9:40	K: What are the other factors that make us hurt? He suggested dependency. I depend on you because I can’t stand alone, or I depend on you because you give me pleasure, comfort, companionship, and when you withdraw that companionship, that pleasure, that sense of intimacy, I get hurt. Right? I get angry, I get jealous, all that. So that now we have got four factors: image - are you following? – this is not a class, you follow? – don’t take notes (laughs) - you won’t pass any exam – image, sensitivity, resistance, dependency. Right? Now what are the other factors?
10:45	Q: Pride. To feel proud.
10:55	K: That is, I am proud or I am inferior - which is still part of the image, isn’t it?
11:04	Q: Your position.
11:07	K: That’s still image. I think I am a great man. You come along and tell me, ‘You are an ass,’ and I get hurt. It is still the image, feeling proud or inferior, comparing itself with somebody and therefore getting hurt, it’s still the activity of that image which I have projected, myself as being or should be or have been. So, there are...
11:38	Q: I revere somebody and he is attached.
11:42	K: Yes, that’s still another form of image. I respect somebody because that respecting somebody is a projection of myself. No? So that is still within the field of image making. Right?
12:01	Q: Security.
12:03	K: Physical security. Physical security and psychological security. Now I have a job and when that job is threatened I get hurt. Both physically, because I am going to lose money so I get hurt, or my house is burnt down, or I’ve lost money. Right? So when security, physical security is threatened, I get hurt, naturally, that’s an obvious fact. Right? And also, is there... psychologically, inwardly, I want to be secure. Secure with this person, because she is my wife, my husband, my friend. I want to be safe with her or him, I feel protected there, and when that protection, that security, that assurance, that dependency is taken away, I get hurt. Right. Now we have five. Go on, sir, discuss, explore.
13:27	Q: When I know I am nothing, it hurts.
13:36	K: Yes, that is still the image. Sir, don’t... What are the other factors?
13:53	Q: Fear.
13:54	Q: Ideas.
13:56	K: That is still the image, isn’t it?
13:57	Q: But the image means you think of something and ideas which you could achieve, normally.
14:04	K: This is still the image process, isn’t it? Sir, the image one builds about oneself is so spreading - not only about oneself, about others, about a person, guru of respect and so on - all this image making is part of the process of self-protection.
14:30	Q: What about feeling, when one feels...
14:35	K: I feel strongly for you, or strongly for this house, or strongly for a particular ideal. I get hurt. The moment you question that, I want to hit you. (Laughs) So, these are the factors – image making, sensitivity, resistance, the desire for security, both physical as well as psychological - and what else?
15:05	Q: When I try to give continuity to something, when I cannot continue it, I get hurt.
15:21	K: I see. That is, I want my relationship with you continued and when that is broken I get hurt. That includes security, isn’t it, feeling of certainty - I want to be quite... in my relationship with you I want to be quite secure and I want that relationship of security to continue. Right? So when that doesn’t continue I get hurt. Now what are the other factors? (Pause)
16:04	Q: Struggling to be the best student in the class and if you don’t…
16:22	K: That’s too silly. I mean that’s part of the image. Go on, sir, you have stopped, haven’t you? Why do you get hurt? Do you belong to any of these categories – image, sensitivity - what’s the other? You’re good at memorising - what is it? Image, sensitivity, resistance…
16:54	Q: Security.
16:57	K: Security. Now what else?
17:01	Q: Disappointment.
17:02	K: Ah, that all belongs to that, image making. Dig deeper, go on, sir, work.
17:17	Q: Identification.
17:20	K: Identification? We have done that - image still. Go on, dig, sir, dig. Don’t throw out words, but dig.
17:36	Q: Mortality? Knowing you will die.
17:42	K: Knowing you are going to die. Does that hurt you? No.
17:45	Q: It causes fear.
17:47	K: It causes fear but it doesn’t hurt you. You know, that’s why we have to find out now what do you mean by that word ‘hurt’? I feel hurt. Right? What is it that is hurt? The image? The sensitivity? The dependency, the security? Is that what gets hurt? You are not thinking. Go on sir, push!
18:19	Q: The ego gets hurt.
18:24	K: What do you mean the ego?
18:25	Q: The self.
18:26	K: The self - what does that mean?
18:27	Q: The sense of ‘I’.
18:30	K: The sense of ‘I’. Isn’t the sense of ‘I’ the image, the sensitivity, the dependency, the security? Isn’t that the very... that is the self, isn’t it, that gets hurt? Go on, sir, push, I am doing all the pushing. You see…
18:51	Q: Everything eventually ends up to the ‘I’.
18:55	K: Yes, my dear, that we agreed. The ‘I’ is… Now, go beyond, further. What gets hurt?
19:05	Q: The limitations, the boundaries.
19:11	K: The limitations or the boundary, having no space - you follow? Shall I go into it? Do you want to go into all this?
19:28	Q: Yes.
19:31	K: Having no space. I live in a small house, crowded, noisy, having no space outwardly, because I live in a ten floor flat and I have one room, no garden, nothing, shouting all round me, noise, radio, television, endlessly. I have very little space outwardly. You know, they have been making experiments of putting thousands of rats, mice, in a very, very, small space. And mice and rats are very orderly people. They like, you know, everything to be in order. When they are so crowded they lose all sense of responsibility and order. They kill each other. They destroy their young. The husband kills the wife and the children. They completely get lost, disoriented. And when you have no outer space one becomes violent, like in the cities. When there is no room you’re bound to explode. Now, also inside oneself there is very little space. Have you noticed it?
21:06	Q: What do you mean?
21:09	K: What do I mean by it? (Laughs) What do I mean by it? You know, sir, the outward space I explained - when I have to live in a small room all my life I get terribly irritated, don’t I? Don’t you? The noise, the squalor, you know, endless gramophones and – you know what happens in a small room, with a small family, shouting, quarrelling, and as there is no space you’re bound to explode, get angry, violent. Right? So the more space one has outwardly, probably less violence. You understand? Less sense of restriction, outwardly. Now don’t you feel the same inwardly? Very restricted, very conditioned, very small, confined in a little space. You may imagine you have a big space but actually there is little space. Haven’t you noticed all this? Go on, sir, go on, dig. (Laughs) (Sound of cutlery falling) Now, imagine that noise going on all day, in a small house. Or the airplanes going over, jets going over the house every two minutes. You know what would happen? So what… haven’t you… don’t you notice in yourself that there is very little space? In yourself, not outwardly. We see what... Inwardly have you got space, where you can move, where you can be free?
23:09	Q: But how can one go beyond it, inquire into this?
23:15	K: Wait. First wait, find out if you have space or not. You know what I mean, space? An animal tied to a post, it has space according to the… in the ratio of the rope. Right? The rope can be very long or very short, but it can only move within the limits of that rope. Right? Right? You see that? Have you got a post to which you are tied? You know? You understand what I am talking about? I believe in socialism. I’m tied there, and the radius, the length of the rope is socialism. I can only move within that area. Or I’m a communist, or I’m a capitalist, or I’m a Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist - you follow? – as long as I have a post from which I revolve, there is very little space. Right? Have you? Have you inside you a post, a belief, an explanation, a formula, to which you are tied, and therefore you can’t move very far? Have you got them?
24:54	Q: Formulas and so on may not need to tie one very much. Wishes and dependence and so on must…
25:07	K: Yes, yes, I am asking you. Have you? I wish I could be somebody. I wish I were rich, I wish I were beautiful – you follow? - you are tied, aren’t you? Therefore you have very little space. Right? As you have very little space if you live in a small flat with a lot of noise, overcrowded, overpopulated, then there is a kind of violence comes into being, doesn’t it? Haven’t you… don’t you know this? Go down to see any big town, Bombay or any of the crowded places, and you’ll see what horror is going on. Right? Now in the same way, inside you, if you are tied to a post of belief, of fear, of desiring, pursuing pleasure, saying nationalism is right - any conclusion, any formula is the stake around which you revolve. Right? Are you following all this? And therefore you have very little space, haven’t you? Can you remove all those stakes, all those posts, and with all the ropes? Then you have lot of space, don’t you? Can you do it?
26:37	Q: Sir, when I realise that I am within that idealism, various images that’s surround me, I immediately, when I feel that I am being suffocated, I try and use another system. I try and go into this system.
26:59	K: But it’s the same, another post. Changing the post is not freedom, is not space.
27:05	Q: So I come intellectually...
27:07	K: No, no. No, intellectually is froth.
27:10	Q: Yes, that’s exactly the point. Although intellectually I feel that I don’t have any system which will help me to, you know, get space, so what do I do?
27:22	K: What do you do? First, are you aware that you have these multiple posts, and when you get rid of one post you substitute another post for it, and therefore there is this constant movement of substitution or change, exchange? In that there is no space. Are you aware of this? Do you know this? Do you know that you have an ideal, a belief, a conclusion, a hurt? You follow? I am hurt and that’s my post round which I revolve. So, have you got any of these? Are you aware of these?
28:11	Q: Even if you are aware, sir, the very awareness leads you to despair.
28:20	K: No. Wait, sir, wait, sir. Are you aware? First see, not despair, first see the fact, the ‘what is’. The fact is one has these posts – right? – and therefore there is no space. And that may be one of the reasons why human beings, having no outward space and inward space, they are violent. I don’t know if you...
28:49	Q: Sir, sometimes you want to be tied to something.
28:51	K: Ah, of course, then you are tied. If you want to be tied, then you are stuck. I am tied to my wife because I like it, I like being possessed by somebody, I like being dominated by somebody, I like being a slave. And then you are… All right, like it, enjoy it, but you are going to one day wake up and say, ‘My God, what’s happening? The thing which I relied on is running away,’ (laughs) and you are stuck. Right? So, are you aware, know, realise that you’ve got these many, many forms of anchors, and therefore no space? It’s only a ship that has lifted its anchor, raised its anchor, that can move.
29:44	Q: Sir, then I should be aware. I mean in the sense, know what it is to be aware.
29:54	K: I am asking you. Are you aware...
29:56	Q: The very fact. Because sometimes I see it psychologically, I am aware of these things verbally, but is that awareness?
30:04	K: No, no, not verbally. You can’t be aware of them verbally. That’s nonsense.
30:07	Q: Exactly, sir.
30:08	K: That’s nonsense. I can’t be aware verbally of this house. It has no meaning. I am aware of this house when I enter it, when it’s... you know, all the rest of it.
30:16	Q: Yes.
30:17	K: Now wait a minute. Please be simple. Let’s begin very, very simply. Am I, you, aware that I am tied to my... tied - you follow? - to various posts? Are you?
30:32	Q: Yes.
30:33	K: Yes? And you, are you aware of it? Yes?
30:37	Q: A little bit, yes.
30:40	K: Wait. Are you aware of it? Don’t be shy. You. Are you?
30:46	Q: Yes.
30:47	K: What do you do about it, when you are aware, when you know that you are tied? I am tied to my wife or tied to my conclusion. You follow? I am tied. I like it till it begins to hurt, then I want to break it. Right? So I wait till it hurts then I want to break it. Right? But I don’t see the very fact in itself, that being tied hurts. I wait till I am hurt. You see the difference? Do you see the difference? Do you? I wait till I am hurt, till my wife says, ‘Go to hell.’ I hope… Then I am hurt. But I don’t see that wherever there is a tie held there is the seed of hurt. Right? Do you see that? Do you see that you are bound to be hurt if you are tied to a conclusion, if the conclusion is solid - you follow? - that you won’t move away from it? If you say, ‘I am everlasting blasted Hindu’ – no, sorry – then you are stuck, aren’t you? Then you are going to be hurt. Right? Are you? Are you tied to anything and know that it is going to hurt because you are tied? Not because it might happen and then get hurt. You are following what we are saying? So we have discovered… I am....
32:58	Q: Sir?
33:00	K: No, wait, wait, listen, dear, listen quietly. Image, sensitivity, resistance, dependency, and being tied to a conclusion, is one of the factors and perhaps the major factor of getting hurt. You see this? Right? Are you… do you belong to any of this? If you do, and if you know you are that way, what do you do? What is the next step?
33:36	Q: Sir, for example, if you are tied to your family, wherever you go you come back to your family in the end. But you know it’s not going to hurt.
33:53	K: Oh, doesn’t it? (Laughter)
33:55	Q: You know that your family won’t hurt you.
33:56	K: Doesn’t it? Your family may not. But most families have hurt. They live on being... hurting other people. Now go into it. What is… I know I am tied. As you say, you know you are tied – right? What is the next step?
34:20	Q: One has to prevent further tying.
34:26	K: I am tied.
34:28	Q: How?
34:30	Q: Then one loosens it, one tries to do something.
34:37	K: What do you do? I am asking. Go on, sirs, it’s your job to investigate.
34:50	Q: You realise that you are tied and then you untie yourself.
34:56	K: I realise that I am tied to a conclusion – right? – I am tied, the mind is tied to an image. Then what do I do next? What is the next action?
35:13	Q: Anything that you do, sir, will be an act of will. Anything you do, (inaudible) …will be an act of will.
35:24	K: What’s wrong with the act of will?
35:26	Q: There is another image.
35:29	K: No, no, you haven’t answered this. What’s wrong?
35:32	Q: You want to be free from conclusion.
35:34	K: No, sir, just look. I am asking you. I am tied to a conclusion. What is my next response?
35:46	Q: I want to get rid of it.
35:49	K: Wanting to get rid of it. Now stick to that. Wanting to get rid of it - why?
35:54	Q: Because you don’t want to be hurt again.
36:01	K: Is that the reason you want to be free of that tie – because you don’t want to be hurt again? You said, sir, ‘I am tied.’ My instant response on the recognition that I am tied, I say I must get rid of it – right? – I must be free of it, because it’s going to hurt. Right? Which is, at any price I want to get rid of it. Right? Right? Are you following this? Now, can I get rid of it? How do I get rid of it?
36:56	Q: You must understand its nature.
36:59	K: You must understand it, not get rid of it. Right? Right, sir? If I understand something, I am free of it. But you resist it and say, ‘I must get rid of it,’ which is, as that gentleman pointed out, an act of will, then there is a resistance, isn’t there? Then there is conflict, isn’t there? And I’ll get more hurt in it. Right? Right? So what am I to do? You tell me: don’t do that but understand why you want to get rid of it. Understand the response, the reaction which says, ‘I must get rid of it.’ You understand? Are you following all this? Understand why you want to get rid of it. Right? Why do you want to get rid of it?
37:52	Q: Because of hurt.
37:58	K: Why do you want to get rid of it, sir? Look at it, look at it: why do you want to get rid of it?
38:04	Q: Because of my hurt.
38:06	K: No, no, I am tied. No, don’t bring in hurt. You will see it in a minute. I am tied. Right? I am tied to a conclusion, to a belief. I believe in God, or I believe in – what? - my guru is the greatest guru, beats your guru, (laughs) he is more enlightened than yours. Right? That’s a good idea! Right? (Laughter) My guru is better than yours. So I am tied to my guru and you come along and tell me, ‘Look what’s happening. In that, there is no freedom, there is no space.’ You point out all these things to me. And I say, ‘By Jove, you are perfectly right, I must get rid of this. I must get rid of my guru.’ Because I am fairly intelligent I listen to you and I say I must get rid of it. Now why do I want to get rid of it?
39:13	Q: I am tied. Though it gives me some security, it brings also sorrow.
39:20	K: No, no. No, sir, you are not answering my question. Why do I want to get rid of it?
39:27	Q: You think you’ll get something better.
39:30	K: Which means what?
39:32	Q: You’re getting tied again.
39:37	K: Tied again. So I want to get rid of it in order to be tied somewhere else. Right? You understand? I want to get rid of it because I want freedom. So I am tied to freedom - which is an idea of freedom. Not real freedom, but I an image of what freedom is, and I am tied to that. So, trying to suppress, control, get rid of, is another form of being tied. Right? Do you see this? No? You all look puzzled. I couldn’t recognise you with your moustache. Go on, sir. So, I see that also - you see? - in trying to get rid of something, in trying to suppress it or trying to control it, I’m already being tied by an idea that I should be free. Right? So I am tied to that. So, through rejection, through suppression, through domination, it doesn’t... I still am caught. So I don’t try any of those ways. Right? You are following all this? No, you are not. (Laughs) You’re tired. Right? So I won’t try any of those ways - suppression, control, rejection, saying I must find the cause – you follow? - all that. So what shall I do then? Go on, investigate a bit. Sir, go on. You are used to books.
41:53	Q: If you reject all these things then you just do nothing. If you reject all these things as useless, you are just in a vacuum, you do nothing.
42:17	K: No. Do you? Do you? Have you done it, sir, or it’s just a theory?
42:21	Q: No, I’ve tried it and…
42:22	K: Wait, wait, wait. Have you said, ‘No, I will not reject because that’s too stupid. I see the reason why I shouldn’t’? I will not suppress it – right? - I will not escape from it, I won’t act upon it at all.’ Have you done it?
42:37	Q: That’s what I said, sir. I said you are in despair.
42:42	K: No, wait. Why are you in despair?
42:49	Q: Because I can’t do anything about it.
42:50	K: You don’t know what to do. You say you can’t do anything about it but you haven’t… you don’t know what to do. So let’s find out. Don’t bring in despair. Right? So what is the next thing?
43:08	Q: Sir, when you remove all this you are confronted with it.
43:12	K: Then what are you confronted with? That’s the whole point. Go on, push. Go on, sir, don’t wait.
43:19	Q: The whole problem, sir, as such, being tied, without I having any ideas about it, resistance...
43:28	K: Go on, sir, we’ve been through all that – we have been through all that. We have come to the point when we see that we are tied. And trying to be free from that tie is another form of getting tied, in a different direction. That’s clear. Then what happens?
43:54	Q: Be in contact with it, sir.
43:56	K: (Laughs) Be in contact. You are just… No, do think, sir, a little more. What do I do?
44:01	Q: Wait for spontaneity.
44:02	K: How can I wait for spontaneity?
44:03	Q: Well, it just happens.
44:04	K: No, no, no. A little more. Go into it a little more. You understand? I won’t suppress it, I won’t reject it, I won’t in any way disperse it, escape from it. Therefore what happens?
44:27	Q: You understand.
44:30	K: No, to understand something I must look. I can’t just understand without looking. So I must look. Right? Now how do I look at the tie, at the thing to which the mind is tied? You follow? I am tied to – what? – to a guru. I am tied to a guru - my God, just think of that, what a horror. I am tied to a guru, and I see why I am tied, because through the guru I hope to achieve enlightenment, peace and happiness, and you come along and say, ‘Look what’s happened to you, old boy. You live in a small room, there is no space outwardly and inwardly you have no space when you are tied,’ and you give me the reasons, logical reasons, and I say, ‘By Jove, you are perfectly right.’ And then you also say, ’Don’t reject, don’t run away from it,’ because – you explain why again - if I ran away, I am tied. So then you tell me, ‘Just look at the fact that you are tied, without condemning it, justifying it, just look that you are tied.’ You understand what I am saying? Just look. And then I ask you, ’What do you mean, how do I look? What do you mean by that?’ Right? You follow the sequence of all this? Have you? I am hurt, I am hurt for these reasons which I explained, and these reasons are the very cause of hurt. Right? Being tied, not waiting, but being tied at all, is the beginning of hurt, and you point out all this. And you say, ‘Then we come to the point, without rejecting, without suppressing, don’t run away from it, look at it.’ Right? Now we have to go into that. What do you mean by looking? Because I must look to understand something. I can’t just say – you follow? – ‘I’ll understand without looking.’ So I must first understand what it means to look. Doesn’t it? You’re following all this? What does it mean to look?
47:31	Q: Give your attention to it.
47:34	K: No, don’t invent my word, don’t catch my word, just think out for yourself. What does it mean to look?
47:40	Q: To explore the space beyond the end of the ropes?
47:46	K: No. No, what does it mean to look?
47:49	Q: To direct.
47:51	K: My darling, sir, just look, look, look. Look at that tree, look at any of the things around the room – what do you mean by ‘looking’?
48:01	Q: You use the senses.
48:02	K: There is first the visual look, isn’t there? Your eye, light, and all the rest of it. Now you look. Right? Does the eyes see or the mind sees? Go slow. Do you understand what I mean? Do you see the thing – right? - or does the mind see it first and then the eyes? The mind looks at this and says that is a microphone. Then the eye says that’s a microphone. I don’t know if you... You have driven cars, have you, any of you? Have you driven cars? Now how do you look when you are driving a car? Don’t you look far ahead? The mind looks much more than the eye. Haven’t you noticed this? Oh lord, what are you talking about? The mind is quicker than the eye, says, ‘Look out for that danger,’ which the eye hasn’t seen.
49:38	Q: So you go out.
49:41	K: No, wait, sir, I am asking: looking. Looking first. How do you look – that’s what we are… of course I have to go out, look. To look at the tree, I’m looking. Now when you look, do you see the tree visually first, or does the mind see the tree first?
50:05	Q: You see it visually first, sir, because obviously if you could close your eyes you are not going to see that tree.
50:10	K: No, I am asking - of course, of course. Do listen, find out, sir. I may be wrong but look at it, find out, don’t wait for your professor to tell you all the blasted things – look. Do you see the tree first, with the eyes - of course - or the mind is quicker in seeing the tree?
50:40	Q: It seems that something is before the eye.
50:47	K: You’re not being simple enough.
50:48	Q: Sir, when I look at this, first I interpret it as a tree, then only I look at the branches, the leaves...
50:56	K: So which means what?
50:57	Q: So the mind looks at it first and then...
50:59	K: Do you do that? So is that seeing? When the mind sees first and then the eye sees it afterwards. So can you see without the image of the mind? You see now what we are leading up to? You understand?
51:21	Q: But when you see something you immediately identify it as the tree.
51:25	K: Of course, of course. Which is, the identification is the quickness of the mind. Right? Eyes look at it and say that’s a tree. The mind has seen it much more than the eye.
51:38	Q: But it can’t be helped. You know it’s a tree.
51:43	K: Wait. Of course it’s a tree. I know it. You don’t have to tell me. (Laughter) But I am saying, I am asking you: is the eye as quick as the mind?
51:53	Q: Isn’t the eye directed by the mind itself?
51:57	K: Yes, sir. So what is... You don’t… You know, when you are driving a car, when you watch with your eyes what is near, then you are bound to have accidents. Anybody who drives will tell you if you are only watching, you know, just beyond the fender, you’re bound to have an accident. But if you are watching in the distance and taking the sides - you follow? - then you are moving safely, but if you are keeping your eyes only on the side, then you are bound... because you are not looking. Right? In the same way, when you are looking, if your eye is merely looking - you follow what I mean? - it only sees the tree but it doesn’t see much more. So, how do you look at this question that you are tied? You are not escaping, you are not running away. I mean, you are not running away, you are not suppressing it, you are not justifying it, condemning it, all the rest of it, you are looking. And then one asks: what do you mean by looking? Do you look at this? I am tied to my guru. Do you look at it... do I look at it without a conclusion that the guru is necessary, or do I just look at the fact that I am tied. I don’t know if you follow all this.
53:48	Q: (Inaudible)
53:50	K: You don’t follow it? You don’t see it? My lord! I am tied - not to a guru, that’s too cheap - I am tied to a belief, to an idea that’s going to solve all the problems of the world. Right? I am fairly intelligent, I am fairly... read books, and so on, and all the rest of it, and I’ve come to a conclusion that this particular system, communism, or X system, is going to solve the problems of the world. I am tied to it, committed to it. Being committed means I’ve very little space. Right? Right? You agree? You see the point of that? Being tied to anything, there is no space. And I see there must be space. Otherwise I am not… There is no freedom, otherwise I get irritated, violent, stupid. So I see that. Now the next step, next thing is: now how am I to be free of it? Right? Be free of the conclusions which I have of a system that’s going to solve all the problems of the world. Right? Now how do I look at that conclusion which I have? Do I say, ‘Well, I must go beyond it, I must suppress it, I must reject it,’ or do I just look at it?
55:36	Q: Sir, if I look at it without verbalising there is space.
55:42	K: No, sir, don’t jump to anything – we are going step by step to find out. How do I look at it? Are you… What’s the time, sir?
55:55	Q: Ten-thirty.
55:56	K: Ten-thirty? When did we begin?
56:00	Q: Nine-thirty.
56:01	K: I am going to stop at quarter to eleven – sorry. Now how do I look so as to understand the thing? You understand? You have understood my question? How do I look at the conclusion which I have, that this particular system is going to solve all the problems of the world? I am tied to that. How do I understand my being committed and therefore a very small space – how do I look at it? Do I look at it with an image that I must be free of it, or do I merely look at it without any image? Because if I have an image that I must… I’m tied to that. So I must look at it without any image, any conclusion, that I must be free, that I must resist. Therefore do I look at it with a fresh, clear mind, which is not committed to anything? Then only I can look and then I can study it, understand it. Right? Now, look at it that way, your particular post to which you are tied. That means first become aware that you are tied, then watch whether you are suppressing, running away from it – you follow? - all the rest of it, and then see if you can look at the thing you are tied to without any conclusion. Right? Which means what? Whether you can look at it without any movement of thought. Because it’s thought that’s creating the images – I must be free, I must not be free, it’s good to be free. So can you look to that which you are tied, with eyes that have forgotten totally the movement of thought? You’ve got what I am talking? Do it. Then when you see that way, there is no problem - it’s out, finished. You understand? Without struggle, without pain, without saying, ‘I must be detached, I must...’ – all that silly stuff goes.
59:07	Q: If one is not attached to something there is no continuity in action. If there is no continuity in action, all movement is denied, is senseless.
59:24	K: Yes, right. You say unless you’re tied, unless you are committed, there is no continuity in action. Right? That’s what he says. Let’s find out the truth of that. You are going to investigate. You’re not going to listen to me. Unravel it. He says unless you are committed there is no continuity of action. Right? Now is that action? Action, which is, which has continuity, a constant movement in the same direction – and is that action?
1:00:14	Q: It’s a chain.
1:00:15	K: No, no, watch it, sir. I don’t know it, find out. He said unless you move in a certain committed direction there is no continuity of action. It is so. If I want to go to Pondicherry or Rishi Valley, I have to go - you follow? - keep on going. That is, having set a goal and I go there. Right? It appears that action, unless committed, has no continuity. Therefore an action to have continuity, what does it mean? Right?
1:01:06	Q: If you want to build a house you must be tied to that idea of building a house, otherwise you would build one floor and then stop.
1:01:12	K: Of course, of course, of course. How do you answer then? Go on, answer him.
1:01:22	Q: But it is only with a pre-formulated thought… (inaudible) …to build something that one wants a continuity – right?
1:01:29	K: Go on, sir, answer him. You fight it out. It’s very simple for me. To build a house, to go to Madras station, there must be a continuous directive action leading me to that, to the station. Right? That’s purely a mechanical process, isn’t it? Right? To build a house, I go to the architect, if he is a good architect, I hope, then he makes a plan of the house, and I have money enough so we continue with that till it’s finished. That’s, again, it’s a mechanical action. Right? It’s a mechanical action. No? No? You seem rather doubtful. I hire you as the architect. You give me a plan. I have the money and I say, ‘Go ahead,’ and you go ahead.
1:02:40	Q: Now you’re giving a job to somebody else.
1:02:41	K: No, no, even if I am doing it.
1:02:42	Q: You build the house.
1:02:44	K: Even if I build the house, I design. I’ve studied enough houses and I have gone into the stresses and strain of the house. It’s the same thing whether I give it to you or give it to myself. I have drawn a plan and I continue around that plan. Right?
1:03:02	Q: But the work may worry you.
1:03:05	K: I vary it. The workmen may strike.
1:03:10	Q: The work may worry you.
1:03:12	K: The work may worry you. Yes, I put up with it. But that is not the point. There has been a continuous action until I finish the house. I may worry, I say, ‘By Jove, this beam doesn’t fit right’ – you know, that’s part, that’s all… but the action is continuous.
1:03:29	Q: But the worry, you’re tied again.
1:03:30	K: No, no, please, sir, you haven’t understood his question. You don’t listen to his question, which was, if there was: all action, he says, must be continuous, otherwise it brings disorder. Right? Of course, you see if I want to build a house I build a house. A continuous action. If I want to go to Madras station, there is a continuous action. Or if I say, ‘Well, this is the marvellous plan, the system to save all mankind,’ and I thoroughly believe in it, I’m tied to it, committed to it up to my eyes, then I pursue it – and this we call a continuous action. And I say to myself, that is so. I must, if I want to go to Madras station, I must go. But is that the entire limits of action? Go on, sir, go on. That is, this action that he has proposed, he sees the logic of it – a communist plan, a socialist plan, a capitalist plan - you follow? - laid down, and pursue it. If somebody interferes, changes, modifies, but it’s all in the same direction. Right? And I say that’s a very narrow sense of action. And I also see that’s necessary. Right? Going to Madras station is necessary. I see it is necessary in one direction, but also I see that a continuous action, in that there is no freedom. I am committed already to that plan and I’m finished. I am stuck with my post and the radius of this rope. So I say: is there action which is non-mechanical? That is mechanical. You’re following all this? Going to Madras, building a house, having a system - political, religious or economic - is a matter of mechanical action – having that, do that. That’s simple isn’t it?
1:06:25	Q: Excuse me, sir, could you not make a distinction between having technological plans and plans for incorporating change in society or bringing a new system, new sort of culture?
1:06:40	K: It is the same.
1:06:41	Q: (Inaudible) …because one involves human beings… (inaudible)
1:06:45	K: But, sir, you haven’t... We are discussing continuous action, not human beings. I have a plan or a system that’s going to save mankind.
1:06:57	Q: Can you have it, sir?
1:06:58	K: That’s not the point. We do have it, sir. The communists are full of these plans. The theoreticians...
1:07:07	Q: (Inaudible) …the consequences.
1:07:09	K: The theoreticians with their communistic direction, they are marvellous in laying down the plans. They are not concerned with human beings. The plan matters because that’s eventually going to give mankind happiness. Wait, wait. You don’t matter, your children, but your grandchildren are going to get the benefits of this plan. So we liquidate you, we send you off to Siberia or to Madanapalle.
1:07:40	Q: Couldn’t we be more simple and stick to more usual things, like being tied to a programme of studies or tied to a programme of...
1:07:51	K: Yes. Sir, it is exactly the same thing. A series of mechanical actions - modified, changed a little bit here and there, but it’s a continuous movement in the same direction, till you pass B.A., take your degree, till you become... Cut that out; it’s simple. Now, a little more complex is: is there an action which is not mechanical, which has its own continuity but not the continuity of mechanical movement? You are following? Is there such action? I know the mechanical action. Right? I want to go to Madanapalle, I get into the bus, train, via car, whatever it is, and I go. And I have a plan to save mankind and I follow that. And that’s fairly simple. I see that. But I am asking myself: is there an action which is never mechanical? And yet action.
1:09:18	Q: It would be an action that would liberated from the past.
1:09:27	K: I don’t know, I am just asking.
1:09:28	Q: But I mean there are two types of action.
1:09:31	K: That’s what I am pointing out, sir.
1:09:34	Q: And one doesn’t mean you have to suppress the other.
1:09:36	K: I don’t. I am going to Rishi Valley tomorrow morning and I have got to go along a certain route and I will jolly well arrive there at a certain time. That’s purely mechanical action. I may stop to watch the monkeys - you follow? – I may do some other things, but it’s still in the same direction. And I call all such activity mechanical, whether it is a socialistic - you follow? - or the communist, it is still along plain which is directional and therefore mechanical. I mean there is… you get the system, you think you know, understand the system, it’s the best system, and you get hold of it and you destroy the others. You know what’s happening in Russia and elsewhere. So let’s leave all that. The other thing is: is there an action which is non-mechanical, which has a movement, not continuity - which has a movement. This requires… Isn’t it time?
1:10:55	Q: Yes, sir.
1:10:57	K: I’d better stop.
1:11:00	Q: Maybe some kind of momentary, spontaneous action which just sort of, you know, arises by itself.
1:11:13	K: Sir, is there spontaneity? To understand whether there is spontaneity, one must be free from all past influence. Otherwise you can’t be spontaneous. I mean, another word we use very easily, ‘spontaneity’, to be really spontaneous you must be - you know? - you must put away all the old clothes. So think it out, this is really quite an interesting question. There is mechanical action. That’s simple and very clear – modified, can be changed, altered, I can take longer or shorter to reach my goal, Rishi Valley – that’s simple and very clear. If I have a system which is going to solve all mankind’s miseries, I realise that and I carry it out. Again mechanical, altering bits here, suppressing twelve million people or five million people or ten, but it’s in the same direction. Now, I am asking if there is any other kind of action which is never mechanical, but action. Action - you follow?
1:12:42	Q: This mechanical action requires time, it always takes place in time, doesn’t it?
1:12:50	K: The going to… the mechanical action always takes time, obviously. Going from here to there is time.
1:12:59	Q: So maybe the opposite exists.
1:13:03	K: Ah, no, don’t – it’s not the opposite, it’s something else entirely. The opposite, sir, when you have the opposite, the opposite has the seed of its own opposite. No? I am angry. The opposite is not to be angry. Right? To achieve non-anger is the outcome of anger. (Laughs)
1:13:31	Q: So it’s not action then.
1:13:33	K: No, no, I am asking. This requires really - I wish we had time, we can go into this, but not now, it’s too late. You find out, sir, if there is any action which is non-mechanical and therefore action from moment to moment.
1:13:53	Q: Impulsive action.
1:13:55	K: Impulse – oh, for heaven’s sake, no. No. You see, if there is a continuous action there is no freshness in it, there is no newness in that. It’s only when action ends-begins, ends-begins, there’s a freshness, newness. Right? You know, if there is something to be new, I must forget the old. So action ending each minute, each second and beginning, ending, beginning, ending. You follow? That’s non-mechanical. We’d better stop. Isn’t that love? If action which is continuous, which is mechanical, modified, is that love? Is love mechanical? She is my wife, and that settles it, don’t touch. In that relationship it is mechanical. I possess her legally and she possesses me legally and we are tied. I can’t look at anybody and she can’t look at anybody. If she does, I am jealous, hateful. You follow? But the direction is the same: mechanical. And I call that love. Right? So love is something entirely different, not the opposite of this, something entirely different, which is, it must be fresh the next day, otherwise it’s a dead thing.
1:16:02	Q: Isn’t love spontaneous?
1:16:06	K: We have said that, sir – is love spontaneous? To have spontaneity one has to understand the whole question of time, thought, the past.