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MA72D1 - Why does the mind get hurt?
Madras (Chennai), India - 12 December 1972
Public Discussion 1



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first public discussion in Madras, 1972.
0:10 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk over together this morning?
0:18 The word ‘discussion’ is really misused. It really should be a dialogue or conversation between two friends, who are quite good friends, to talk over things together, their own problems.
0:41 And so, in friendship and companionship, I think we should talk over these matters that may be of concern.
0:56 So what should we talk about? Questioner: May we discuss the question of memory? [Inaudible] K: Shall we discuss that?
1:06 Q: [Inaudible] K: Don’t get up, sir, it’s not worth it.
1:11 Q: [Inaudible] …or the many that we gathered, at your lecture last evening… [inaudible] K: Sir, please…
1:31 Q: No, no, I want to explain the whole thing so that... [inaudible] K: No, I understand, sir, but we’ll have to make it brief.
1:45 Q: Yes. The man… [inaudible] …he has to be drawn out.
1:57 Not of his own… [inaudible] …but of conditions beyond his circumstance, like all the information that he has gathered throughout the ages…
2:05 K: So what are you trying to say, sir?
2:10 Q: I am trying to tell you whether there are any rudimentary methods by which quite a large number of people would be able to follow the path that you suggest just now.
2:28 K: All right, sir.
2:31 Q: [Inaudible] …you call this fragmented. Organisation of mind and body is real and necessary in life.
2:44 K: What causes fragmentation – is that it, sir? Yes. Please, don’t read it again. Is it you are asking: why does this fragmentation take place between God and man, between man and man, and so on – is that the question, sir?
3:19 Q: You totally deny the concept of the Brahman, then how could we explain the cause and effect of the universe?
3:33 K: Ah! You deny Brahman, how do you accept, how do you expect, or rather, how do you explain the present state of the world – is that it?
3:36 Q: The cause for which… [inaudible] K: Yes. So what shall we discuss?
3:41 Q: Sir, one more.
3:44 K: One more. [Laughter] Q: Sir, would you please explain the need for change?
3:54 K: I’ll explain, need for change.
3:58 Q: Sir, can you go into the question of observation. In the last two talks about observation.
4:04 K: Yes – would you discuss what you mean by observation.
4:09 Q: Why is it that we are not in contact with the actual [inaudible] all the time?
4:23 K: Yes, sir?
4:26 Q: In your last talk you mentioned the necessity for observing fear, not analysing it, creating an analyser in analysis.
4:35 K: Yes.
4:36 Q: But in that observation of fear, which can only exist in time, when you observe fear and you’re in the field of time then you have a division.
4:41 K: Should we discuss this question of observation? Would that be of interest?
4:47 Q: One more point in observation. We are in… [inaudible] K: What do we mean by resolving the problem…
5:10 Q: [Inaudible] K: Yes, through observation.
5:15 Q: The other day you said when you observe or investigate a thing you must forget the past, the knowledge we have about it, or what other people say about it.
5:38 What you mean to say is, when you observe a thing you have got to observe it with your own capacity, your own way of thinking.
5:59 I think that if everything is ordered… [inaudible] …we can understand it better since things in life have deep values and it’s not easy for one man to investigate it – he can’t do it fully. That’s what I feel, sir.
6:07 K: Right, sir.
6:15 Q: What is the purpose of life? [Laughter] Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, sir, sir, sir, did you hear what I said at the beginning of the discussion?
6:35 We said we are talking as two friends over their problems, good friends who don’t shout at each other [laughter], who don’t put absurd questions to each other, who are concerned with their own problems, not about somebody else’s problem – they want to talk things over amicably, with a sense of good humour and feeling, and that is what we are trying to do.
7:11 And if you ask questions which you have already prepared, written down, it seems rather awkward to answer those questions.
7:20 So, if you don’t mind, do we discuss, talk over together, this question of observation?
7:28 Q: Yes, sir.
7:29 K: Right.
7:30 Q: I think I would be making myself clearer – if misery is more and happiness less, would not man destroy himself?
7:54 K: I don’t know.
8:02 Do we discuss then this whole question of observation? Would that be of general interest?
8:11 Q: Yes.
8:13 K: All right. The word ‘theory’, if you look up in a good dictionary, means observation.
8:25 Theoria, Greek, which means to observe, to have an insight – not what we have made that word into, a theory, as a speculative abstraction.
8:43 The word ‘theory’ means to observe, to have an insight.
8:51 Now, how do we have an insight to any problem? Insight – you understand what I mean by that word?
9:04 Need I explain the meaning of that word? To have an insight, which means ‘to have sight in’ – you understand? – that is to comprehend, observe, learn about something by looking – having sight inside the thing, inside the problem.
9:35 That is, theory means observation, having an insight.
9:42 Now we are talking about observation, having an insight into things.
9:50 How does this observation take place? How do you observe? Let’s begin very, very, very simply because as we go along it will become very complex, so let’s begin very simply.
10:07 How do you observe? What is the process of your observation, of your seeing? Come on, sir, two friends. You are not my enemy, I’m not your enemy. Two friends talking over. How do you observe? How do you observe the speaker? I am sitting here.
10:29 Q: You give your attention to him.
10:33 K: You give your attention to him. No. I am asking how do you observe the speaker? How do you look at him?
10:46 Q: Open your eyes and look. [Laughter] K: Open your eyes and look. If you are awake, how do you look?
10:55 Q: Without judgement.
10:59 K: Do you observe the speaker without any judgement?
11:07 Be factual, please, otherwise there’s no point. Do you observe the speaker sitting here without a conclusion?
11:16 Q: Usually we name.
11:21 K: So, first you observe through the name, do you?
11:28 Q: The label.
11:30 K: The label, a name. So, is the name the person? Go on.
11:41 Q: No.
11:43 K: Explore, sir, don’t just... Is the person who is sitting in front of you at this moment – unfortunately on a lovely morning – how do you observe him?
12:00 The name? You have a conclusion about him?
12:06 Q: Self-abandonment.
12:08 K: For the love of God, sir.
12:16 Do please…
12:17 Q: [Inaudible] K: Great Scott!
12:27 Q: Sir? I observe you through what he says.
12:31 K: So you are observing the words? No, sir. I’m asking something much simpler than that. How…
12:40 Q: [Inaudible] …your speech and a body.
12:44 K: My God!
12:46 Q: [Inaudible] K: Don’t you have an image about the speaker?
13:00 The image being the reputation, what he has said, what he has written, what other people have said, or disagreed, and so on – you have an image about that person, don’t you?
13:17 Be simple, sir. The image being the label, the name, the reputation, the history, the myth around him.
13:29 Right? So you look at him through that image, through that screen, through that verbal abstraction.
13:42 Right, sir? Do you? We are talking, don’t be… So, when you observe a person or a thing or a machine, you have an image about that person, or a symbol or an idea, through which you are looking.
14:08 Right? No? When you look at a mountain, you have an idea of a mountain, don’t you?
14:27 And the verbal recognition of that thing called ‘mountain’, through that verbal image, you look.
14:37 So, we look through words, through conclusions, through ideas, through labels.
14:53 Right? So, observation means, doesn’t it then, looking through a screen of words, conclusions, opinions, judgements, like and dislike, and so on.
15:19 Right? That is simple enough. Now, what takes place when you do that? When you have a screen between you and me, a verbal screen, what takes place?
15:36 Q: I am not looking at the person but I’m looking at myself.
15:46 I’m not seeing at all. The act of seeing is not there.
15:55 K: I’m asking, sir, what takes place when you have a screen between you and me?
16:04 A screen.
16:06 Q: Distortion.
16:09 Q: Division.
16:13 Q: The vision is blurred.
16:16 Q: We don’t see at all.
16:20 Q: I see the screen.
16:23 K: That’s right. Be simple, sir. You only see the screen, don’t you? [Laughter] Q: That screen is not opaque, it’s translucent.
16:40 K: Oh, for the love of…
16:45 Q: I am putting it vigorously.
16:48 K: Oh, vigorously – right, sir. Translucent, opaque, slightly distorted, not clear. So you see the person through the screen. So you really see the screen first and then the person after. If the screen is very heavy, you don’t see the person at all. If it is slightly opaque then you see the distorted image. Right? So you really never see the person if there is a screen at all.
17:25 Right? That’s a simple fact. Right, sir? Now, can you look at a human being without that screen?
17:40 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, look, I asked a question – I said, can you look at a human being, at your wife, without that screen?
18:02 Q: No.
18:03 K: Wait. You say no. Why not?
18:08 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, please!
18:11 Q: If we both have the memory… [inaudible] K: That’s right.
18:18 Which means, sir, what? What is the screen? Right? Please, sir, don’t jump into this, sir, we are examining slowly.
18:30 What is this screen composed of, made up? What makes a screen?
18:37 Q: Our memories.
18:39 Q: Preconceived ideas.
18:42 K: Have you preconceived ideas about your wife?
18:46 Q: [Inaudible] K: Oh, sir, you’re talking just verbal nonsense.
18:55 Just words, words. I am asking something and you are saying something else. What is the screen made up of?
19:03 Q: Memory of past experience.
19:04 K: That’s right, sir, isn’t it? Be simple, sir. I have the screen about you because I have been introduced to you, I know your name, so that the name, the incident has left a mark, which is the memory, which is the past, and through that memory I look at you.
19:28 So the memory, the experience, the knowledge is the past, and that screen is between you and me.
19:42 So the screen is the past. Right? Don’t agree with me, please, watch it in yourself. If one is married – I don’t know why you marry but doesn’t matter – if one is married and has a wife, you have lived together, sex, irritations, annoyance, pleasure, hurts, prejudices – you have built up this memory about her and she about you, through years – thicker and thicker the screen goes.
20:29 Right, sir? That is the memory you have accentuated through time and that is the screen between you and the wife, or the wife and the husband.
20:44 Right, sir? Now, that is the past, that is time. Right? Right, sir? Now, what takes place when you have this screen between you and another?
21:01 Q: You adapt to the moment.
21:07 K: Oh my God!
21:11 Q: Observation is limited.
21:15 K: Have you removed yours, sir?
21:18 Q: Have to try it now.
21:23 K: You are trying it now?
21:25 Q: Yes, sir.
21:28 K: Why?
21:31 Q: We just look through.
21:36 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, please, sir, either we talk together about facts as they are, and not invent theories, abstractions – so let us stick to facts as they are.
21:59 If I have a wife, I have an image about her which I have put together through the years that I have lived with her.
22:10 Right? That image is the memory that mind has accumulated during the past fifty years – right? – or ten days – that is good enough.
22:23 And through that memory… or, that memory is the screen.
22:31 That’s simple enough. Now, that memory is time. Right? Yes, I want to go on. I don’t want to stop in one place. [Laughs] That thing is time. So I’m looking at her through the past, a series of images, a series of conclusions, in which are included hurts, pleasures, annoyances, disturbance, jealousy, anxiety – all that is the screen between me and her.
23:12 Now, what takes place when I have the screen between her and me?
23:19 What takes place?
23:20 Q: Division.
23:22 K: Do you know that as a fact or just as an idea in talking about it?
23:33 Do you know as a fact – fact, not an imagination – that when you are a Hindu and I am a Muslim there is a division.
23:42 That’s a fact. You say, ‘How appalling! His habits and his customs, not mine,’ you discard. So, what takes place when there is this division between you and the wife or between you and the speaker?
24:05 The screen divides, doesn’t it? Right? Right, sir? The screen divides. Now what takes place when there is division? Be clear – from your heart, say this.
24:24 Q: There is no relationship.
24:27 Q: Conflict exists.
24:28 K: Conflict, doesn’t it, sir?
24:29 Q: Yes, sir.
24:30 K: I am a Muslim and you are a Hindu, and we have conflict. So, conflict is inevitable where there is division between you and me.
24:44 Right? Right, sir? Now, why does the mind accumulate this memory in relationship?
25:00 Q: It is a form of security, we think.
25:08 K: Yes, let’s investigate it a little more. Why does this memory come into being between you and me?
25:16 Q: It’s more pleasant than reality.
25:23 K: More pleasant than the reality. My wife is ugly and the reality of the image which I had about her when she was young is better than what she is now.
25:35 [Laughter] No, don’t, sir, don’t laugh. This is what you are doing.
25:42 Q: Sir, I have admiration for her.
25:50 K: Admiration. That’s another form of screen. [Laughs] So…
25:58 Q: It’s a habit.
26:03 K: Habit – that is another form of screen.
26:10 So I see, in observing – you understand, sir? – I’m observing the process of relationship between two people and in that observation I see how memory of past incidents, experiences and knowledge, which is really time, divides people.
26:33 Right, sir? Now, why does the mind gather this memory?
26:43 Do please look at yourself, don’t answer me. I’m good at answering, don’t answer me. [Laughs] Why does this memory… why is this memory accumulated?
26:55 Q: For security.
26:57 K: That lady suggested security.
27:04 What you mean by security? Go on, sir.
27:11 Q: Not to be disturbed.
27:18 Q: [Inaudible] K: Please, we are trying to understand [laughs] why the mind accumulates memories in relationship.
27:34 We are talking of relationship. We will discuss later the necessity of accumulation as knowledge, in the field of action, driving a car, electronic things, and so on.
27:52 We’ll come to that presently. So we say… you are saying the mind accumulates this memory in order to be secure in relationship.
28:06 Is that it? Am I… have I gathered this memory about my wife in order to be secure?
28:23 In order not to be disturbed? In order not to face the fact that she is not as she was?
28:34 Is that the reason I do it?
28:35 Q: The is no motive. Memories accumulate without motive.
28:41 K: But, sir, I’m full of motive. [Laughs] Why do I have this accumulation of memory about her?
28:51 Q: Is it not a natural process?
28:55 K: Is it not a natural process. Is it natural? I’m not saying it’s natural or not – why do we do it? Why does the mind do it?
29:07 Q: [Inaudible] K: Look, sir, I insult you.
29:19 You have a memory of that. Why do you have a memory of that? Do watch it, sir. I insult you, I call you something, and you…
29:31 Q: I don’t have a reason.
29:35 Q: It’s an experience.
29:38 Q: Sir, I think it is a self-defence mechanism.
29:44 K: Self-defensive mechanism.
29:45 Q: Because I think that the other person tends to mirror some of my faults on some occasions and I don’t want to see those faults.
29:56 K: So you’re saying that it is a protective reaction, self-protective reaction, which means you do not want to be hurt.
30:07 You have been hurt before and you have this image about her or him, and that image acts as protection from further hurt.
30:20 Is that it? So, it is security, resistance, being hurt, and so on – is that the reason why the mind accumulates images about another in relationship?
30:46 Q: It is also a fact that certain persons have certain tendencies.
30:56 For example, one may… [inaudible] K: So you are saying you have conclusions about that person in dealing with that person.
31:14 You have conclusions about your wife when you are dealing with her – is that it?
31:23 Q: You may take the other example that I have given.
31:34 [Laughter] K: So, sir, the mind accumulates memories about another in relationship in order to protect itself.
31:49 Right?
31:50 Q: When I see a person has…
31:54 K: Wait, wait, wait, I’ll come to that, sir. And also when the person has another kind of tendency in that relationship, you keep that in mind, when you are in that relationship.
32:14 You remember the tendency and act according to that tendency.
32:21 It all comes to, basically, doesn’t it – I’m just investigating – that the mind accumulates these memories in order not to be hurt.
32:38 Right? Right, sir? Right? Do we agree? Do we see this?
32:47 Q: What about pleasant memories? Memories that are pleasant.
32:53 K: Memories that are pleasant. The memories that are pleasant, you pursue, you want more. So I’m asking, the mind is always seeking a state or a degree in which the mind will not be hurt.
33:23 It wants to be secure. Right? No? Why are you all so doubtful about this? No, sir?
33:34 Q: It is trying to avoid pain.
33:37 K: Which is not to be hurt. [Laughs] Now, see the consequences of it, see the whole map of it first.
33:53 Why does the mind get hurt?
34:01 You know, the word ‘innocence’ means a mind that is not capable of being hurt.
34:18 You understand, sir? The word ‘innocence’ means a thing that cannot be hurt.
34:29 So, why does the mind get hurt?
34:36 Why do you get hurt?
34:38 Q: A feeling of importance.
34:46 K: Why do you get hurt? Is it, she is suggesting, she said, you have an image about yourself – is that it?
34:59 So you have an image about yourself which gets hurt. You may have an image about yourself being an extraordinary man or woman, or an extraordinary cleaver chap, or extraordinarily spiritual and learned, and that image which you have built about yourself doesn’t want to be hurt or shaken or disturbed.
35:26 Q: May I say one thing?
35:33 The child has very good memory, it is very sensitive, and if one harms that child he is frightened and that memory is automatically retained.
35:49 Because he doesn’t have any image.
35:54 K: I’m asking… we are human beings, not… So take yourself and examine yourself, look at yourself.
36:04 You have an image about yourself, pleasant or unpleasant, whatever it is, and that image gets hurt very easily.
36:16 Q: That image survives from childhood.
36:20 K: From childhood or recenthood [laughs], it gets hurt. Now, why does the mind get hurt? Proceed sir, investigate. Why do you get hurt? Because, look, sir, you call me a fool and I get hurt because I think I’m not a fool.
36:49 Or you call me a marvellous man and I like that, therefore I’m not hurt.
36:56 So, there is this constant reaction to pleasure and pain, which is a form of self-protection, a form of an image which I have built about myself, and that image is getting constantly shaken, hurt, bruised, insulted, praised – you follow?
37:23 That’s what’s going on. So the mind is seeking constantly security – right? – and memory is a factor of security.
37:40 Right, sir? Memory in relationship with another is a factor of security, because if I have no memory of the insult which I have received from another, my mind then is capable of looking at that person totally differently, isn’t it?
38:02 So, from childhood, through education, through the tradition, through family, through my other little friends, I get terribly hurt, and that goes on building, building all through life, and now I have an image about myself which has been terribly hurt.
38:29 And the mind, being hurt, wants to protect itself. The protection is in the past, which I know – you understand?
38:42 Right sir? The protection is in the past, not in the future or in the immediate now – it is always in the past.
38:53 Now, so the past acts as a security in relationship.
39:00 Right, sir? Please. Right? We agree? Not agree – we see this? Now, this is observation, isn’t it? Now, what shall I do not to be hurt?
39:20 I have been hurt, I have been bruised, I have been kicked around, in the office, at home, in the school, in playing fields, I have been bruised, shaken, beaten.
39:33 What shall I do? Keep this image?
39:44 And if I don’t keep the image, how is the mind to be free of that image? You follow, sir? Now let’s come back to it. How does the mind free itself from the innumerable hurts it has had, sufferings and beastliness of life, how is that mind to rid itself of its hurts?
40:18 Come on, sir.
40:30 Q: Repeat the question, sir.
40:42 K: What did I say? [Laughter] Look, sir, I have been hurt, the mind has been hurt.
41:01 From childhood, mother beats me, the school children tease me, the teacher beats, society hurts, the mind is bruised, hurt, and it says, ‘What shall I do with it?’ You understand, sir?
41:26 Am I to keep it forever, or is it possible to be free of it?
41:33 You understand now, sir? Now, it’s no good keeping it, is it?
41:43 Or do you think it is worthwhile to keep it? Please. So most of us want to be free of it, don’t we? Now, what is the way – not ‘way’ – how do we set about to free the mind… how does the mind set about to free itself from its thousand hurts, conscious, unconscious hurts?
42:08 How do you set about it?
42:10 Q: Constant watchfulness.
42:13 K: Sir, we are starting as though we have never talked about any of these things.
42:21 Now how does the mind set about it?
42:25 Q: Burying the past.
42:30 K: Burying the past. Who is the person who buries the past?
42:35 Q: [Inaudible] K: Please, sir, just listen to my question first.
42:44 Haven’t you been hurt? All of us have been hurt. Yes, sir?
42:51 Q: We try and get rid of it by thinking about it.
42:58 K: Now how does the mind free itself from the innumerable collected hurts for the last thirty years or eighty years?
43:11 Q: It seems that the self-defensive mechanism is at work to protect itself.
43:22 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, apply it to yourself, don’t discuss abstractly.
43:35 You have been hurt, haven’t you? You have shed quiet tears or open tears, and how will you not be further hurt?
43:49 Q: [Inaudible] K: That’s right, make yourself as hard as nails – is that it?
44:04 Which means build wall round yourself, which you have done, not to get hurt. Is that it?
44:10 Q: That’s what it means.
44:12 K: I’m asking you, sir, how does the mind which has been terribly bruised free itself from these bruises, so as to be young, fresh, alive, you know, not…
44:30 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, hasn’t your mind been hurt?
44:38 Q: Many times K: Then what will you do with it?
44:41 Q: Slowly just get rid of such unpleasant thoughts, dispel them from the mind.
44:47 K: Wait.
44:49 Q: [Inaudible] K: My God! My God!
44:54 Q: [Inaudible] Q: Sir? Be aware of the past.
45:00 K: The gentleman says, get rid of them one by one. Right? Wait, sir, just listen to that question – get rid of one by one.
45:15 How many hurts have you?
45:16 Q: Quite a number K: So it will take quite a number of years, will it?
45:21 Q: You’re laughing, sir.
45:23 K: I’m not laughing, sir.
45:26 Q: The point is here, sir, that as the mind gets hurt… [inaudible] K: My God!
45:40 Q: Getting rid of one by one is… [inaudible] K: Sir, can the mind...
45:53 Q: And therefore the first step seems to be to become aware of the image and see and observe how the image comes.
46:05 K: Sir, look, I have got a thousand hurts, conscious and unconscious hurts, and I see, having these hurts destroys the mind.
46:17 It is incapable of clear thinking, it is incapable of seeing anything very clearly, it is incapable of innocency – right, sir? – it’s incapable of being alive, moving, active, functioning freely.
46:38 Right? Now, how is that mind to be free of all these hurts?
46:47 Take one by one?
46:50 Q: [Inaudible] K: Oh, my! Don’t theorise, sir! Please don’t speculate. What am I to do? I have got thousand hurts, concealed and open hurts, and I see very clearly how these hurts distorts life.
47:19 I am frightened, I resist, I retire into my own isolation, I am frightened to go out, I don’t want to be hurt, I live with in a sense of great anxiety, misery, confusion.
47:35 And I don’t like that state, so I say, how am I… how is this mind to be free of all the hurts?
47:48 Q: Is it possible?
47:49 K: Is it possible. I don’t know. Therefore let’s investigate. Right, sir? Now, how will you… Now, wait a minute. We are investigating these hurts. Now, who is the investigator?
48:07 Q: Self.
48:10 K: Wait! Who is the investigator who is looking at the many hurts?
48:16 Q: The one who hurts, the same thing, same one.
48:26 K: You are saying one hurt, or one part which you think is not hurt is looking at the other hurts – is that it?
48:41 So, one fragment of the mind which has not been hurt, or thinks it has not been hurt, examines the many hurts.
48:57 Now, please just listen. Is there a part in the mind which has not been hurt at all?
49:07 Q: [Inaudible] K: Please look at it! Look at it, sir. We are two friends – look at it. Is there any part of your mind that has not been hurt, that has been kept totally innocent, totally unhurt, totally clean, healthy?
49:23 You follow?
49:25 Q: I don’t know, let’s investigate it.
49:31 K: Therefore, that’s all. So don’t assume then that one part can cleanse the hurts of the many fragments.
49:46 Right? Now we are investigating. Now, who is the investigator?
49:52 Q: The sufferer himself.
49:55 Q: The mind.
49:57 K: Please! You are not doing it, that’s why. Who is the investigator?
50:03 Q: The one who is frightened.
50:07 K: Is the investigator the entity that chooses, says, ‘I will investigate’?
50:14 Is investigation a matter of decision, will?
50:24 Q: I think investigation is attention.
50:32 K: That’s just it. Now wait a minute, sir. So you are saying in investigation there is no investigator.
50:42 Q: By itself.
50:44 K: Go slow, go slow, go slow. There is only attention. That’s all. Please look at it slowly. We’ll go into this. Many parts of my mind have been hurt, or the totality of the mind has been hurt.
51:12 There is no fragment of the mind which says, ‘I have not been hurt.’ If that fragment has never been hurt, then it can proceed to devour or absolve the other parts which have been hurt.
51:39 But one observes there is no part of the mind that has not been hurt.
51:46 So, the investigation into this is not a matter of decision or will.
51:56 It is no good saying, ‘I will investigate’ – then the action of will comes in, and will is one of the factors of resistance which has been hurt.
52:16 Right, sir? Got it? No, I don’t know... When I say, ‘I will investigate,’ the decision to investigate is made by whom?
52:33 You follow?
52:36 Q: One percent of the mind, perhaps.
52:40 K: Yes, which again… You follow? So, investigation is not a matter of choice, matter of decision, or will.
52:55 Therefore, investigation implies attention. Right? To attend is to observe.
53:08 Now, the mind has been hurt, and the mind now says, ‘I will see what takes place when I am completely attentive, in which there is no observer who is the deciding factor.’ Right?
53:32 Got it, sir?
53:38 Q: What starts the investigation is the knowledge… [inaudible] K: Just a minute – what started investigation is very simple.
54:00 I see around me human beings which have been terribly hurt.
54:07 And all their actions are born of that hurt – I am generalising too much – and those actions born of hurt create such mischief in the world – in relationship, in action, in various forms, that action born of hurt distorts action and is causing misery.
54:40 I observe this and I say to myself, ‘Why does the mind get hurt at all?’ There is no motive in operation.
54:55 I don’t want to be free of hurts. Why does the mind get hurt? Does it get hurt because it is seeking protection, therefore resisting, building a wall round itself?
55:11 And the very fact that it us building a wall round itself is the factor of being hurt.
55:18 Right? So, investigation then has no motive. Right, sir? There is no motive so far. And the mind says, ‘What is the reason of these hurts?’ Not that it wants to get rid of them or go beyond them – then the motive operates, the motive factor comes in.
55:50 It says, ‘Why is the mind hurt, your mind, my mind, thousand people’s mind, why does it get hurt?’ Does it get hurt because it has built an image about itself?
56:04 It looks like it.
56:11 Therefore the mind says, ‘Have I an image about myself?’ And it says, ‘Yes, I have many images about myself, not only about you but about myself.
56:27 I have great many images and these images get hurt.’ So far there is no motive.
56:36 Now, why do these images exist at all?
56:45 Right, sir? Right? Why do they exist?
56:54 Q: [Inaudible] K: Don’t guess, don’t guess.
57:02 Q: [Inaudible] K: Yes. That’s part of the mechanical system, mechanical response of the brain, which says, ‘I must not be hurt.’ Because the brain functions efficiently only when it is completely secure.
57:24 Right, sir?
57:26 Q: [Inaudible] K: Secure, like a child functions happily, easily when it feels secure, the brain, with all the thousands of cells in it – not that I am a biologist, I haven’t read about it, one can observe it oneself – that brain can function when it is completely safe, completely secure.
58:02 Right? So it seeks… it is constantly seeking security. Right? So it is seeking security in the image it has built about itself – follow this, sir – or it finds security in some neurotic belief – nationality, God, communism, all the rest of it.
58:28 So, the brain demands total security.
58:35 And security means total order. Right? Since it is demanding it, it must find it. It finds it in the image or in a formula or in a neurotic belief – there is God, there is no God, communism is the only way out, and so on, so on, so on.
59:06 Now, does an image give security?
59:14 I am investigating; there’s no motive still. Does image give security? The brain thinks it does but does it actually? Obviously not. Because the Muslim has an image – I must explain this – and so Pakistan and I, the Hindu, have images, and they are at war.
59:46 So, in image there is no security, nor in formula. Watch this, sir, what is it happening to the brain, watch it. If there is no security in image, formula, ideals, in past memories – right?
1:00:06 – so the brain says, ‘I sought security in these things; it doesn’t exit, I see.’ Right?
1:00:19 So where is that security which I have sought? If it isn’t in any of these then where is it?
1:00:27 Q: [Inaudible] K: Wait! Hold it, hold it. Where is it?
1:00:35 Q: [Inaudible] K: Which means what?
1:00:48 Please do it with yourselves, don’t guess.
1:00:59 The brain has sought security in all these images, conclusions, in the statues, in saviours, in gurus – security – and the brain says, ‘By Jove, there is no security in any of these.
1:01:16 Even in my neurotic belief, there isn’t any.’ So is there security?
1:01:24 Wait, sir, don’t answer it. Is there security? If there is no security, the brain goes to pieces, because it cannot function without security, which is order.
1:01:43 And if you say there is no security at all, then it says, ‘I’ll live in total disorder, which is much better,’ which is what is happening.
1:01:56 So is there security, if it isn’t in any of these? Right, sir? Oh, you’re not moving – come. None of these work. Now, when does the brain say it doesn’t exist in any one of these?
1:02:18 In none of these, the brain says, is there security. When does it say it?
1:02:28 Q: [Inaudible] Q: Only after real investigation.
1:02:35 Q: When there is no fragmentation in the mind – one part…
1:02:46 K: No, sir. Do you – you who said just now – do you say there is no security in belief? Do you say that?
1:02:55 Q: There is no security in belief.
1:02:58 K: Is it just a verbal statement or fact?
1:03:11 Q: Fact.
1:03:12 K: Then you are not Hindu.
1:03:13 Q: He can’t be a Hindu.
1:03:18 K: Are you? Are you a Hindu?
1:03:22 Q: I am a Hindu by birth.
1:03:25 K: Then why do you put these marks, scared, puja? Come, sir, face these things!
1:03:31 Q: [Inaudible] K: You see, how we can’t face these things!
1:03:38 So, when the mind sees the false – right, sir? – these are false, and in these there has been no security.
1:03:50 The mind, seeing the false, what takes place in the mind?
1:03:58 What gives the capacity to the brain to see the false?
1:04:02 Q: [Inaudible] K: How quickly you…
1:04:14 Do take two seconds to observe, sir. You’re got a thousand beliefs, images – you are a Hindu, you do this, you have sacred thread or no sacred thread, you put on this and that – you have got a thousand beliefs, conclusions, opinions – and the brain says, ‘By Jove, I must have an opinion about something, otherwise I’m insecure.’ And we have been through all this and it says now, ‘There is no security in any of these.’ Right?
1:04:49 Now what is the quality of the mind that says there is no security in any of these?
1:04:58 Q: Knowledge.
1:04:59 Q: I said there is no security, but I still find that… [inaudible] K: You’re speaking too fast, sir – slowly, slowly.
1:05:20 Q: I made the statement: there is no security at all.
1:05:31 K: I know.
1:05:32 Q: [Inaudible] K: Those are out – but have you your conclusion?
1:05:36 Q: Yes, I have my own.
1:05:38 K: So that is the another form of image, and that is another security.
1:05:47 So, the mind wants security.
1:05:49 Q: Yes.
1:05:50 K: Therefore you are finding it in a conclusion – rational, irrational. Whether your conclusion is rational or another’s is irrational, it is the same.
1:06:02 Conclusions are the same. So, you say, ‘In conclusions I have found security.’ I say, ‘Can you find in the past’ – conclusion is always in the past – ‘security?’ Q: No.
1:06:18 K: Don’t say no – he does. So let’s be quick, simple and move.
1:06:31 So you find security in the past, so does everybody – and what takes place?
1:06:39 When I find security in the past, what takes place? I am dead. I am mechanically acting. My mind isn’t vibrant. I am dull, dead, because I am living always in the past.
1:07:02 Right? So, is there security in the past? I think there is, or I find security in some idea in the future – it’s exactly the same thing.
1:07:16 So is there security at all?
1:07:19 Q: There is not.
1:07:22 K: Please don’t say there is not, don’t just guess. You know what it means not to have security?
1:07:27 Q: There is not.
1:07:30 K: Madam, ecoutez, when you say there is not, the brain must have complete security.
1:07:45 Q: The brain doesn’t have to have any security.
1:07:55 It can remain serene, detached, look at things as they are.
1:08:04 K: Madame, look, we are talking about a mind that has been hurt, a mind that says, ‘Why am I hurt?’ Q: It’s the image.
1:08:22 K: We’ve said all that.
1:08:24 Q: [Inaudible] K: Oh, the mind different from the image?
1:08:28 Q: Yes, the image is something dead, it is not the mind, it is not you.
1:08:33 K: You see, sir? ‘The mind is different from the image’ – so who made the image?
1:08:40 Q: The habits. A sickness, a weak point in you, but it is not you, not the real you.
1:08:53 Q: [Inaudible] K: She says, sir, mind is different from the image.
1:09:06 Who created the image? Society? Education? My family?
1:09:11 Q: It is you which created the image, but it is not you.
1:09:26 It is a part. It is something in your capacity that created that image.
1:09:32 K: Who is that capacity? What is that capacity?
1:09:36 Q: I would say it is the mind but also the mind is not the image.
1:09:43 K: Madame, you start off with a conclusion, by saying the mind is not the image.
1:09:50 I don’t know – you say that. We are investigating the whole quality of the mind that says mind is different from the image.
1:10:00 So you must also move, you can’t merely keep on repeating: mind is different from the image.
1:10:07 Mind, we said, is thought, is time, is the result of thousands of years of culture, memory, evolution – otherwise mind doesn’t exist at all.
1:10:20 So the mind, through reaction of thought, creates the image.
1:10:29 So mind is the fabricator, is the manufacture of the image.
1:10:33 Q: It is the manufacturer but it is not the image.
1:10:40 K: Wait, wait, I agree. It manufactures the image and throws it out, but the machine is not the image, obviously.
1:10:52 But the machine is producing images all the time.
1:10:56 Q: But you are not the machine…
1:11:03 You are the machine but you don’t have to identify yourself.
1:11:04 K: Ah, now it begins. No, you see, we have been through all this, madame. The question is: thought creates the image, thought is the reaction of memory – we have been through all this.
1:11:17 So, what is the quality of the brain, mind, which sees all the images, all the statements, conclusions, assertions are not a safe place – there is no security in them, either in the past or in the future – what gives the mind that quality of saying there is no security in any of these?
1:11:42 Q: Awareness.
1:11:44 K: Not quite, sir. We’ll come to that – go step by step.
1:11:51 Q: I don’t know, let’s investigate.
1:11:55 K: Yes, we are investigating. What is it that gives the mind this quality to see the false?
1:12:06 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, what makes you say this is false or that is true?
1:12:26 Your prejudice?
1:12:29 Q: Through observation, observing my mind.
1:12:37 K: Madame, I asked: what makes the mind say, ‘This is false’?
1:12:51 Q: Another thought.
1:12:57 K: No, look, sir, what makes you say now, after an hour and a quarter of investigation [laughs], what makes you say there is no security in any of these?
1:13:16 Q: Disappointment.
1:13:18 Q: Analysis.
1:13:20 Q: When security fails.
1:13:24 Q: Perception.
1:13:26 Q: Insight.
1:13:28 K: Insight. What is insight?
1:13:32 Q: [Inaudible] K: No, please look at it. What is this insight that says, ‘I have looked at all these things that are false’?
1:13:44 Q: [Inaudible] K: Sir, you are not working, you’re just theorising. What gives you this insight?
1:13:52 Q: Intelligence. High intelligence.
1:13:55 K: Have you got that? [Laughter] Or you just theorise? Sir, don’t laugh. Have you got that intelligence or are you just theorising?
1:14:06 Q: [Inaudible] K: Look, sir, we said the mind is the maker of the image.
1:14:22 The image is not separate from the mind. The mind may throw out the image but it has created it. It’s always creating it. Therefore the image-maker is the image. Obviously, sir, that’s simple. Now – and it says, after this investigation of an hour, ‘In none of this is there security.’ Right?
1:14:49 What makes the mind say that?
1:14:55 Q: Past experience.
1:15:02 K: You don’t take time, sir. Take a little time and look. What makes the mind…
1:15:14 Q: The part which is free, which has never been hurt.
1:15:22 K: Which is that part? We have been through all that, madame.
1:15:24 Q: No.
1:15:25 K: We have just…
1:15:26 Q: I don’t believe it.
1:15:29 K: It’s not a question of belief.
1:15:33 Q: No, not a question of belief, question of knowledge.
1:15:42 Not all of you is being hurt.
1:15:44 K: That’s another conclusion. That’s all. You are living in a conclusion, that there is a part of you which is not hurt.
1:15:48 Q: Yes, a sane part of me.
1:15:52 K: So there is a Brahman, God in you which is not hurt.
1:15:57 Q: An insight…
1:15:59 K: Wait, wait. There is part of you which is the cosmic consciousness or the atman, the Brahman, the higher spirit that cannot be hurt, and therefore that can never… throw out images, go back to that, and everything is free.
1:16:17 These are conclusions which have been for a thousand years. Now, I am saying – do go into this a little bit – what makes the mind say any form of conclusion that I make, any form of assertions that I make, any form of belief that I have, or think it is not a belief but my real understanding, are all conclusions?
1:16:52 And the mind demands securities, brain cells demand security, and it says, ‘In none of these is there security.’ Now, please, sir, what is that that says there is no security in any of these?
1:17:09 Q: Silent observation.
1:17:15 Q: [Inaudible] K: He says the capacity to make other images.
1:17:29 Now, sir, ecoutez... I must speak English – pardon. We have abolished all images – I mean inwardly, actually, not theoretically – we said all images, in any form, gives no security.
1:17:47 What is the mind that says there is no security in any belief, in any conclusion?
1:17:56 Vous avez compris?
1:18:03 Q: [Inaudible] K: I want you to work!
1:18:11 Q: [Inaudible] Q: The very attentiveness is seeking security.
1:18:27 Q: It is the mind again in play.
1:18:29 Q: The awareness that comes out of…
1:18:32 K: You say something and you really don’t experience, or really see it, and the words come out.
1:18:40 You say: awareness of all this, being aware of all the falseness, in that awareness is security.
1:18:55 Q: How?
1:18:56 K: How! My God!
1:18:59 Q: You see there’s no security.
1:19:04 K: Sir, have you understood this? You understand, sir? I have been attentive. We said attention is the quality of investigation. Attention, in investigation, there is no investigator, because it is a movement.
1:19:24 And in that investigation we see that any form of conclusion, opinion, judgement, belief, formulas, no security.
1:19:37 The attention is going on. Right? It is the attention and the quality of attention, is that intelligence which says, ‘In none of these is there security.’ So there is security in that intelligence.
1:19:54 You got it, sir? So in that attention there is complete security. There is insecurity when there is no attention. Right?
1:20:08 Q: That attention is silence.
1:20:14 K: No, don’t describe it, please.
1:20:25 Attention. Look, [laughs] we have paid attention – at least one or two of us have – paid attention right from the beginning till now.
1:20:39 In that attention we investigated. Investigated, that is, to trace out, without the investigator – we went into that.
1:20:53 In that attention we see that any form of conclusion – any form, the highest and the lowest, any form saying, ‘I am God, there is in me the purity,’ and so on, so on – all that is a conclusion, in which the brain takes security, feels security.
1:21:18 And you see in that attention and investigation that any conclusion has no validity.
1:21:31 Therefore security is in attention, in that state of attention.
1:21:38 Right? So that attention is order.
1:21:47 And there, why do you want any other image? You have got it, sir?
1:21:56 Q: I don’t follow.
1:22:01 K: You don’t follow?
1:22:07 Q: What is attention?
1:22:12 K: What is attention. That which you haven’t paid during the hour. [Laughter] Don’t laugh, sir, please, I am not being funny.
1:22:26 Sir, you would not ask that question if you had been even partially attentive.
1:22:37 When you attend, that is, when you look with attention at a tree, at your friend, at the house, at the moving cloud, in that state of attention there is no image.
1:22:56 The stateless state of mind, in which there is no image, is attention.
1:23:10 Oh, come on, sir! Don’t make this into something you’ll remember and practise, and, you know, play around with.
1:23:20 Q: So to observe fear is also attending to contact – because there were some people discussing yesterday.
1:23:34 K: Oh, no, sir. No, sir. When there is fear, that is a state of inattention.
1:23:47 When there is fear, the mind is not attentive.
1:23:55 It’s only when there is inattention, conclusions, images, fears, and all that takes place.
1:24:03 Then you will say to me, ‘How am I to have this attention?’ Right?
1:24:13 Right, sir? Then go to a guru, because he will tell you how to practise attention. Right? Which is, practising implies mechanical habit. Right? Attention is non-mechanical habit. There is no habit in attention. We’ll meet again on Thursday if you want.