Krishnamurti Subtitles

Is freedom a matter of time?

Madras (Chennai) - 6 January 1979

Public Talk 3



1:17 I hope you
don't find it hot.
  
1:21 I do.
 
1:28 Please don't
take photographs.
  
1:36 May we go on with what
we were talking about
  
1:41 the last two times
that we met here?
  
1:52 We were saying
- weren't we? -
  
1:57 that we must
think together,
  
2:03 not what to think,
 
2:08 but how to think.
 
2:12 And we are,
as we said previously,
  
2:17 that we are taking
a journey together,
  
2:20 sharing the problems,
 
2:24 the various incidents and
happenings in our daily life.
  
2:32 And we are
not concerned
  
2:38 with theories,
 
2:41 probabilities,
suppositions,
  
2:46 but with what is
actually going on.
  
2:52 The word 'actual' means
that which is happening,
  
2:56 happening now,
 
2:58 not only externally,
outside of us,
  
3:03 but also inwardly.
 
3:09 And we said,
one can have
  
3:16 correct examination
inwardly,
  
3:22 only when we
understand
  
3:24 what is happening
outwardly,
  
3:28 because one can deceive
oneself enormously,
  
3:37 examining ourselves,
 
3:40 our attitudes,
our prejudices.
  
3:43 But if we approach it
from the outward world,
  
3:50 then perhaps
we shall have
  
3:54 clear observation
of ourselves.
  
3:57 We said also, that the
society in which we live
  
4:02 is created by us,
 
4:05 by every human being,
 
4:09 not by some
divine edict.
  
4:14 The society in
which we live
  
4:16 is the expression of
our greed, our ambition,
  
4:20 our sense for power,
violence, and so on.
  
4:28 So, this
afternoon, if I may,
  
4:35 I would like - sharing
together, of course -
  
4:41 to talk about
time,
  
4:47 to investigate the
nature of culture
  
4:54 and tradition.
 
5:02 And also we pointed
out the other day,
  
5:04 if you don't mind my
repeating it again,
  
5:12 that this is a serious
meeting, gathering.
  
5:17 I mean by that
word 'serious'
  
5:21 - weighty, heavy,
not casual,
  
5:30 not something that you come
 
5:33 of an evening, a
pleasant evening,
  
5:35 sit under trees and
listen to a talk,
  
5:38 but rather
 
5:40 that we are sharing
together our investigation.
  
5:48 Our concern, as we
pointed out the other day,
  
5:53 is that our society
is so corrupt,
  
6:00 so dangerously violent,
 
6:04 and all the rest of it.
 
6:07 Unless every human being,
 
6:10 each one of us
radically,
  
6:13 psychologically brings
about a revolution in himself,
  
6:18 then there is
no possibility
  
6:20 of bringing about a
change in the world.
  
6:25 That's what we talked about.
Perhaps you may remember it.
  
6:40 With what we are talking
about you may not agree,
  
6:48 or you may agree:
 
6:51 agreement or disagreement
is irrelevant.
  
6:58 We are not dealing
with opinions,
  
7:02 ideas,
 
7:05 or speculative
philosophy.
  
7:11 We are dealing
 
7:13 with what is actually
going on in our daily life,
  
7:19 because as we
pointed out again,
  
7:21 we must begin near
to go very far.
  
7:26 But most of us start
with theories,
  
7:30 abstractions
that are very far
  
7:33 and therefore
valueless, irrelevant.
  
7:40 So I hope, that we are
clear on this point,
  
7:46 that we are not
concerned with philosophy,
  
7:51 philosophy being, as
it is understood now:
  
7:55 a series of suppositions,
 
7:58 theories, concepts,
conclusions.
  
8:02 The word actually means
 
8:06 the love of life,
the love of truth.
  
8:23 So, first,
 
8:30 why have human beings
throughout the world,
  
8:36 being caught
up in tradition,
  
8:41 whether it is the
tradition of a day,
  
8:46 or a week,
 
8:48 or three thousand years.
 
8:51 Why?
 
8:54 The very word 'tradition'
 
8:57 means, doesn't it,
 
9:00 something handed down
 
9:02 from generation
to generation.
  
9:07 And also the word
etymologically means
  
9:11 betrayal, treason.
 
9:19 And this tradition,
 
9:26 which is to hand over,
 
9:29 from generation
to generation,
  
9:32 certain values,
 
9:38 certain beliefs,
 
9:41 ideals, rituals,
 
9:45 concepts, conclusions.
 
9:49 This has been going
on, handed down
  
9:52 for century
upon century.
  
9:58 And like
a steam-roller
  
10:03 flattening
the human being
  
10:07 with these values,
conclusions, and so on.
  
10:14 And when those
values, conclusions,
  
10:22 concepts,
principles, and so on,
  
10:26 have been thrown aside,
as it is happening now,
  
10:31 we are back to
where we started.
  
10:34 We are violent, greedy,
 
10:37 anxious, insecure,
 
10:40 uncertain, confused
human beings.
  
10:43 That's what is
going on, actually.
  
10:47 Right?
 
10:49 Since tradition held human
beings along a certain groove,
  
10:55 and when those traditions
are thrown overboard,
  
10:58 as they are being
done now,
  
11:07 we are where
we started.
  
11:10 Perhaps we have more
 
11:13 comfort,
more bathrooms,
  
11:16 and more way
of driving cars,
  
11:19 and transportation, and
communications, and so on.
  
11:23 But as human beings
 
11:28 we suffer,
 
11:31 we are envious,
 
11:35 we are violent,
 
11:40 there is a great
deal of fear,
  
11:45 utterly insecure.
 
11:47 The world is becoming
more and more dangerous.
  
11:51 This is all a fact.
 
12:00 And this tradition
 
12:05 implies,
does it not,
  
12:10 a process of evolution,
 
12:20 from the wheel
to the jet plane,
  
12:24 there has been
evolution,
  
12:30 taken many, many,
many centuries
  
12:34 from the wheel to
come to the jet.
  
12:46 And in this tradition,
 
12:52 there is
so-called culture.
  
13:00 Culture, the word implies,
 
13:03 to cultivate, to grow,
 
13:07 to blossom, to flower
 
13:12 - the human mind as
well as the human heart.
  
13:25 And as human beings living
in a certain tradition,
  
13:29 have we flowered morally,
 
13:34 perhaps intellectually
we have, more or less,
  
13:40 that is, we spin
a lot of words,
  
13:43 theories,
principles, ideals,
  
13:47 and try to live up
to them,
  
13:50 which are all an
intellectual process.
  
13:57 Culture, as we
pointed out, implies
  
14:05 the freedom of man,
 
14:08 not to be steam-rolled
 
14:10 by centuries
of tradition,
  
14:15 and in that there can be
no culture.
  
14:21 That is obvious.
 
14:23 When a mind is
following tradition,
  
14:25 rituals, all
the rest of it,
  
14:28 in that there can be no
possibility of human mind,
  
14:35 and human heart
 
14:37 growing, developing,
 
14:44 you know all
the rest of it.
  
14:46 Technologically, we have
advanced tremendously.
  
14:52 That is based on the
accumulation of knowledge.
  
14:58 But morally,
so-called spiritually,
  
15:04 we are almost
savages,
  
15:07 with a lot of
superstition,
  
15:13 ideals, principles
 
15:16 which have no
meaning whatsoever.
  
15:21 Right? That is the
state our daily life is.
  
15:26 Technologically
we are excellent,
  
15:28 at least we try to be.
 
15:32 And we have never
challenged ourselves
  
15:38 whether it is
possible to live
  
15:41 ethically
at its highest.
  
15:48 And when one sees what is happening
in the world and in ourselves,
  
15:55 that is our
greatest challenge,
  
16:01 that we, each individual,
each human being,
  
16:09 cultivate in freedom.
 
16:31 Is freedom a matter
of time?
  
16:40 Time being division
in movement.
  
16:52 Time is movement.
 
16:54 Obviously.
 
16:56 And in that movement
there is division,
  
17:00 as yesterday,
today and tomorrow.
  
17:07 The yesterday
meeting the present,
  
17:11 modifying itself and
proceeding to the future.
  
17:16 This is the
movement of time,
  
17:21 in which there is
division.
  
17:27 To get from here to there,
it takes time.
  
17:35 From the wheel to the
jet has taken centuries.
  
17:40 Time.
 
17:43 So, there are two
different kinds of time:
  
17:52 the biological time
 
17:59 and psychological time.
 
18:05 The time that a child
through adolescence
  
18:11 grows up to be
a man, and so on,
  
18:13 that takes time, years,
 
18:18 like a seed, planted,
 
18:19 takes time to
become a tree.
  
18:24 And we are questioning
 
18:27 whether there is
psychological time at all.
  
18:31 That is, psychological
evolution,
  
18:41 that is, to
become, or to be.
  
18:50 I hope we are communicating
with each other.
  
18:54 I think this is rather important
that we understand this question
  
19:00 that time
 
19:06 - it is really quite extraordinary
if you come to think of it -
  
19:13 we have depended
on time,
  
19:16 we thought
 
19:17 our whole human progress
is a development in time.
  
19:28 We have achieved
technologically
  
19:30 great varieties
of excellence,
  
19:36 and to achieve
that one has to have
  
19:38 an enormous amount
of time.
  
19:41 All accumulation of
knowledge is time.
  
19:50 And we are asking
 
19:52 whether there is
psychological time at all,
  
19:58 that is, psychological
evolution.
  
20:06 That is, 'I will
be something,
  
20:12 I will achieve
goodness.'
  
20:16 That is, the very word
'achieve' implies time:
  
20:26 'I am not this but
I will be that,'
  
20:30 both in the business
world
  
20:36 as well as in the so-called
world of the spirit, mind.
  
20:46 Is it that we have seen
 
20:51 a seed grow into a tree
 
20:55 and have accepted that
 
20:57 as a process of
growth in time
  
21:01 and therefore move
with that concept,
  
21:05 with that understanding
 
21:07 into the psychological
field?
  
21:11 You are following
all this?
  
21:13 Psychologically we
think we are growing,
  
21:17 we are developing,
 
21:19 we will become
something,
  
21:23 and we are questioning
that very concept,
  
21:29 very idea, very feeling
that we will be.
  
21:35 Right?
 
21:39 All organisations
are based on this,
  
21:45 both worldly as well
as so-called religious:
  
21:53 give me time, I will
achieve enlightenment
  
21:59 through practice,
through systems,
  
22:01 through mechanical
processes
  
22:04 - which you achieve
in the world,
  
22:06 in the mechanical world -
 
22:08 you apply the
same attitude,
  
22:11 the same approach,
 
22:13 or come with the same
approach to the psyche.
  
22:18 Right?
 
22:29 There is no psychological
evolution at all.
  
22:41 Right?
 
22:43 Please, don't accept
what is being said,
  
22:49 or deny,
but listen first.
  
22:54 You may have
your own opinions,
  
22:56 your own conclusions,
your own beliefs,
  
22:58 your own way of approaching
 
23:02 the problem of time,
 
23:04 but since you have taken
the trouble to come here,
  
23:08 obviously you have to listen to
what the other fellow has to say.
  
23:14 Listen,
not casually listen,
  
23:19 or listening interject
your own opinions,
  
23:23 your own comparative
values, and so on.
  
23:26 Just listen.
 
23:29 And then after
having listened,
  
23:32 you can begin
to examine.
  
23:35 But you cannot examine
before you have listened.
  
23:41 That implies
giving attention,
  
23:47 not partial attention,
 
23:49 attending one minute
or a few minutes,
  
23:51 and then thinking
about something else.
  
23:56 Right?
 
23:57 Which implies,
attention needs freedom.
  
24:05 Because if you
are investigating
  
24:09 there must be
freedom to observe.
  
24:16 Right?
 
24:19 We are actually
doing this, I hope,
  
24:21 not accepting
what is being said
  
24:24 and turning it into
a theory, or an idea,
  
24:29 but you are
actually listening
  
24:32 to find out for yourself
 
24:37 whether evolution,
 
24:41 gradual growth,
 
24:45 psychologically
exists or not,
  
24:53 and if it is not,
 
24:55 then how do we
deal with a problem
  
25:00 - you understand? -
 
25:02 with a reaction,
 
25:05 with, say, for
example, with fear?
  
25:10 You are following
all this?
  
25:12 We must be very
clear in this matter.
  
25:24 Time is fear.
 
25:33 Time is pleasure.
 
25:37 Time is sorrow.
 
25:44 And is love involved
in time?
  
25:57 You are following
all this?
  
26:09 We are denying
 
26:13 the total
acceptance up to now
  
26:19 of psychological
evolution altogether.
  
26:27 So we are going
to examine that.
  
26:31 There is no need to examine
 
26:33 the wheel and the jet.
 
26:35 That's fairly clear,
 
26:38 that's obvious.
 
26:40 Whole science is based on
the accumulation of knowledge.
  
26:45 And not being burdened
with that knowledge,
  
26:51 you examine more and
acquire more knowledge,
  
26:55 and you are all the time
 
26:57 adding more, and more,
and more knowledge
  
27:04 - knowledge being the past.
 
27:08 Now, we are asking:
 
27:20 is time necessary,
 
27:22 time being movement
in division?
  
27:27 Right?
 
27:29 Please understand
this carefully.
  
27:32 Time is movement
with divisions:
  
27:36 yesterday, today,
tomorrow,
  
27:39 or time immemorial,
 
27:43 time which has
no beginning,
  
27:47 and time that may end.
 
27:58 Eternity is out of time,
 
28:05 that which has a
continuity is not eternal,
  
28:09 it is still part of time.
 
28:12 You are following
all this?
  
28:19 If one observes oneself,
 
28:23 because we as
a human being,
  
28:26 as a human being
 
28:28 we are the representative
of all mankind,
  
28:35 because we suffer,
 
28:37 we go through all
kinds of tortures
  
28:40 like every other
human being -
  
28:44 we are poor,
we are rich,
  
28:46 we are greedy,
we are suffering,
  
28:48 we are lonely,
we have no love,
  
28:51 all that is the
rest of mankind.
  
28:54 So, you as a human being
 
28:57 are the rest
of mankind
  
29:00 which is not an
intellectual concept.
  
29:06 You can turn it into an
intellectual concept,
  
29:09 but it has
no value then,
  
29:11 like any other theory.
 
29:13 But if one sees
the truth of it,
  
29:18 the actual
reality of it,
  
29:23 with your heart,
with your mind,
  
29:24 then a human being
 
29:28 becomes an
extraordinary, serious
  
29:36 committed human being,
 
29:40 not an individual,
 
29:44 because we're
not individuals.
  
29:49 Individual means
indivisible,
  
29:55 not broken up,
not fragmented.
  
30:00 And most human
beings are fragmented.
  
30:06 Right?
 
30:07 So we are not
individuals at all.
  
30:14 We may think, because we have
a name, we have a bank account,
  
30:17 or a car, or a
wife, or a house
  
30:20 - we call ourselves
individuals.
  
30:23 I think that is wrong
usage of the word.
  
30:27 We are human beings
 
30:32 like every other human
being living in the world,
  
30:36 with enormous problems,
 
30:39 our relationships
are very complex,
  
30:45 our sorrows are
limitless, and so on.
  
30:55 So, when we realise
that we are the world
  
31:01 and the world is us
 
31:04 - realise it, not intellectually
play with words -
  
31:15 one has a tremendous
responsibility.
  
31:20 And that's why perhaps we
avoid that responsibility
  
31:24 by calling ourselves
individuals.
  
31:36 And being a representative
of all mankind
  
31:40 - each human being is -
 
31:43 and when that human being
 
31:45 psychologically
transforms himself,
  
31:49 it affects the whole
consciousness of mankind.
  
31:53 Please listen to all
this. Don't accept it;
  
31:55 look at it.
Examine it.
  
32:03 And the speaker is only
concerned with that,
  
32:06 not with theories,
and so on.
  
32:09 That is, is it possible
for human beings,
  
32:16 not through
evolutionary process,
  
32:20 not through time,
 
32:22 but fundamentally,
radically,
  
32:26 basically change,
totally?
  
32:31 Because that is
our challenge,
  
32:34 because traditions
have gone,
  
32:36 religions have no
meaning any more;
  
32:39 institutions have
their limited place
  
32:42 but cannot possibly
transform man;
  
32:47 no government can
possibly change man
  
32:51 - they may improve the
outward circumstances,
  
32:55 but deeply they cannot as
it has been shown in Russia,
  
32:59 and all the rest of it. We don't
have to go through all that.
  
33:03 So, understanding all that,
 
33:09 we are asking:
 
33:13 is there a possibility
of transformation of man
  
33:22 in which time
as movement
  
33:26 with its division
has no place?
  
33:30 You have understood
my question?
  
33:33 You understand
my question?
  
33:36 Because our whole
ethical,
  
33:39 moral and so-called spiritual
world is based on time.
  
33:49 In the business world, in the
political world unfortunately
  
33:54 the hierarchical
system exists
  
33:59 - the pecking order.
 
34:02 And in the so-called world
of the mind and heart
  
34:09 we have also
this pecking order.
  
34:15 This is so obvious.
 
34:18 And, is it possible
for a human being,
  
34:24 psychologically,
 
34:28 to change fundamentally,
 
34:33 without having time
at all?
  
34:37 You understand, sir?
 
34:41 This is a very important
question to ask,
  
34:45 you may not
find the answer,
  
34:48 but one must ask it.
 
34:51 Right?
 
34:54 Because we have lived
for a million years,
  
34:58 probably more or less the same,
psychologically.
  
35:04 There has been
tremendous
  
35:07 technological
revolution and progress.
  
35:12 So, let us find out
 
35:14 if it is possible
for a human being
  
35:21 to be free totally
 
35:24 of this idea of evolution,
psychological evolution
  
35:27 which involves time.
 
35:30 Right?
 
35:33 Will you examine it,
can we examine it together?
  
35:39 That is,
 
35:42 your tradition
says: take time.
  
35:48 Right?
 
35:50 Your whole
scriptures, religions,
  
35:53 everything is
based on time.
  
35:57 Our brains work
in time.
  
36:05 We are conditioned
by time,
  
36:10 and we are
asking a question
  
36:12 which puts aside time,
 
36:20 which denies
totally evolution.
  
36:26 Right?
 
36:27 So we are going
to investigate
  
36:29 whether a human being
can really bring about
  
36:34 this radical change
 
36:36 in which time is
not involved at all.
  
36:39 Right?
 
36:42 Are we meeting
each other?
  
36:45 Right?
 
36:47 That is, are we sharing
the thing together,
  
36:50 are we deeply interested
in this question?
  
36:56 Or you are just
waiting for me
  
36:58 to examine it, explore
it, investigate it,
  
37:03 and you say, 'Yes, that's
possible, or not possible,
  
37:09 I have different opinions
and conclusions,' and go away.
  
37:17 Which implies that you are really
not sharing in the problem at all.
  
37:27 Because we have lived for
over a million years and more,
  
37:36 and we are practically
the same as we were,
  
37:40 psychologically, inwardly.
 
37:43 Right?
 
37:49 And to reverse
the whole process
  
37:56 - so is that possible?
 
38:05 How do you examine,
 
38:08 in what manner,
 
38:10 or what capacity
of the mind
  
38:13 that is capable of
investigating something
  
38:17 which appears
totally impossible,
  
38:23 a mind which is so
heavily conditioned by time,
  
38:27 to which a new kind
of proposition is put?
  
38:34 Is it capable, first of all,
of receiving the problem,
  
38:40 receiving the question,
 
38:43 or it has been so
heavily conditioned
  
38:49 it is incapable
of even hearing it?
  
38:57 So, what is actually
going on with each one?
  
39:02 Do you hear the question
 
39:04 and make it into
an abstraction,
  
39:08 which means
avoidance,
  
39:11 or being so heavily
traditionally conditioned,
  
39:17 you say, 'Sorry, I am
not going to even listen.
  
39:19 It does not mean
a thing to me.'
  
39:23 Or you have the
quality of mind
  
39:27 that says, 'Let
us go into it
  
39:31 - not theoretically
but actually.'
  
39:38 Which is,
whether fear,
  
39:42 which is one
of the reactions
  
39:48 from timeless,
immemorial time,
  
39:53 whether that fear
can totally end
  
39:57 without involving
time at all?
  
40:01 Is that clear?
 
40:03 Right?
 
40:15 Perhaps, fear is a
little more complex,
  
40:19 we will take it
up a little later.
  
40:23 Whether a human
being from childhood,
  
40:28 who has been hurt
psychologically,
  
40:32 both physically as
well as psychologically
  
40:38 - listen to it
carefully -
  
40:40 whether that hurt,
the inward hurt,
  
40:44 which expresses
itself outwardly
  
40:48 by withdrawing,
by resisting,
  
40:52 by wanting to be more
violent to another
  
40:55 because you are hurt
yourself,
  
40:59 whether that hurt,
which has been gathered,
  
41:04 which has been
kept cherished,
  
41:08 almost loved,
 
41:10 whether that hurt
 
41:12 can be totally abandoned
instantly
  
41:16 - you understand my question?
- without time.
  
41:21 Right?
 
41:25 You see the fun of it?
 
41:32 It is not fun, it is really very,
very serious if you go into it,
  
41:36 but the very question
is so challenging
  
41:41 and therefore demands your
attention, demands your care,
  
41:44 demands your response
totally to it.
  
41:52 We are hurt
from childhood,
  
41:58 inwardly, psychologically,
inside the skin as it were.
  
42:03 And the consequences of
that hurt are resistance,
  
42:15 building a wall
around oneself,
  
42:18 a withdrawal not
to be hurt more,
  
42:23 having always fear of
getting hurt more and more.
  
42:30 The consequences of
that are violence,
  
42:33 having no actual
relationship with another
  
42:39 because you might
get hurt, and so on.
  
42:41 The consequences one
sees very clearly.
  
42:46 Now, can all
those consequences,
  
42:50 which is the beginning
of the hurt, end?
  
42:55 To find that out
 
43:01 - are you waiting
for me to answer it? -
  
43:07 to find that out
 
43:08 - we are going into
it very deeply -
  
43:17 what is hurt?
 
43:26 You say, the 'me.'
 
43:29 The me is the image which you
have created about yourself
  
43:33 or the society
has imposed on you.
  
43:37 The society is your
relationship with another
  
43:39 which is your making,
so don't... - you follow?
  
43:42 It is... (laughs)
 
43:45 So you are hurt because
you have an image.
  
43:49 The image is the symbol,
the idea, the name,
  
43:53 the form, the whole
structure of the psyche.
  
43:58 Right?
 
44:00 That gets hurt,
 
44:04 and our conditioning is to
get over that hurt gradually,
  
44:08 do it, go into
it, examine it,
  
44:11 analyse it, find the
cause and the action,
  
44:17 which all takes time.
 
44:20 Right?
 
44:27 Now, is it possible
 
44:30 not to have an image
about oneself at all?
  
44:37 Then there is no hurt.
 
44:39 You understand?
 
44:45 Right?
 
44:47 Is it possible?
 
44:51 As long as you
have an image
  
44:54 that you are a very
powerful person, dominant,
  
44:57 aggressive, beautiful,
 
45:00 clear intellect, and
all the rest of it,
  
45:02 the image that one
builds up for oneself
  
45:05 from childhood right
through old age and death -
  
45:10 we are asking,
we are saying,
  
45:15 as long as that image
exists, there must be hurt,
  
45:22 superficial or
very, very deep.
  
45:27 Right?
 
45:29 Now, can that image,
 
45:32 seeing the truth of it
- you understand? -
  
45:35 seeing that as long as you
have an image about yourself
  
45:40 you are bound
to be hurt,
  
45:43 and the consequences
are you are violent,
  
45:45 you become more and more dull
because you are withdrawing,
  
45:48 fear, and so on, so on.
 
45:50 Seeing all the consequences,
seeing that the image is hurt,
  
45:56 seeing the truth of it, not just
the intellectual concept of it,
  
46:01 the very perception is
the very ending of the image.
  
46:08 Right?
 
46:12 Perception.
 
46:15 So, we have to examine what
we mean by perception, seeing.
  
46:24 We see both optically,
visually,
  
46:31 the things around us,
 
46:34 and we name them
 
46:37 because that's part of our training,
part of our conditioning:
  
46:40 the moment you see this
thing you call it a tree.
  
46:49 That is, the
action of knowledge
  
46:53 operating in perception.
 
46:56 You are following
all this?
  
47:01 Is there a perception
 
47:05 without the
accumulation of the past?
  
47:09 To observe without time.
 
47:12 Right?
 
47:18 That is,
when we observe,
  
47:23 we observe not only
visually, optically,
  
47:29 but when we
observe ourselves,
  
47:32 if you have ever done
it, which I doubt,
  
47:35 most of you don't,
 
47:36 I am pretty sure
 
47:38 - if you observe
yourself,
  
47:41 in that observation there is
the observer and the observed.
  
47:45 Right?
 
47:49 The one who witnesses
and the observed,
  
47:56 which is, the thinker
and the thought.
  
48:02 Right?
 
48:06 The thinker
is the thought.
  
48:11 There is no division between
the thinker and the thought.
  
48:18 This is you will
not accept this
  
48:22 - examine it, please.
 
48:28 The thinker is the result
 
48:32 of many, many, many
incidents of thought
  
48:37 - right? -
 
48:39 which is the past.
 
48:45 The thinker is put
together by thought.
  
48:52 So, thought
is the thinker.
  
48:56 Right?
 
48:59 There is no division between
the thinker and the thought.
  
49:05 That division is
created by time
  
49:09 which is the
movement in division.
  
49:14 You are getting
all this, sirs?
  
49:18 No, no, madame.
 
49:22 Right, sir?
 
49:24 At least I must see somebody
who says, 'Yes, I have got it.'
  
49:29 Q:I have got it.
 
49:31 K:No, no, you can't get it
so quickly as that. (Laughter)
  
49:39 You see, what we are
trying to point out is,
  
49:43 our conditioning
through the millennia
  
49:48 has been to make
an effort, conflict.
  
49:54 Conflict, effort,
involves time.
  
49:58 Right? Of course,
 
50:02 because it
is a division in time.
  
50:10 Right, sir?
 
50:14 So there is always
conflict,
  
50:17 from childhood
till we die,
  
50:19 there is always struggle,
struggle, battle,
  
50:25 because of this
division in time.
  
50:30 Right?
 
50:32 I am glad there is somebody
who is seeing with me.
  
50:39 And is it possible
 
50:44 to act without
effort, without time?
  
50:50 That is, to perceive,
 
50:53 and that very
perception is action,
  
50:58 not idea and then
interval and action,
  
51:04 which is the
division of time.
  
51:08 In that division various
other incidents take place:
  
51:16 if I have to go
from here to there,
  
51:19 then other things
are happening.
  
51:23 So, when there is division
in the movement of time
  
51:28 other incidents
take place,
  
51:33 which we call problems.
 
51:36 I hope you are meeting
all this.
  
51:39 Right, sir?
 
51:41 We are asking:
 
51:43 can the brain which
is so conditioned
  
51:46 by millennia, by
a million years,
  
51:51 perceive,
 
51:55 and that very perception
is instant action?
  
52:05 Because we have
no time.
  
52:10 We are decaying,
we are degenerating,
  
52:16 we are corrupt
- right? -
  
52:18 and if you allow time,
 
52:21 you become more
and more degenerate,
  
52:27 which is
what's happening.
  
52:29 Which is, when you say,
 
52:31 'I will not degenerate but
I will be generate,' (laughs)
  
52:36 you have lost it:
 
52:39 so, we are saying,
 
52:45 what does it
mean to perceive?
  
52:51 You understand
my question, sir?
  
52:53 Which is, can I
- is there a possibility
  
52:56 of this perception
of the image
  
53:01 which gets hurt,
 
53:03 and to see the danger,
 
53:09 both biologically
as well as psychologically,
  
53:13 the danger of
having an image
  
53:17 - to see it instantly,
 
53:19 and the very seeing is
the ending of the image,
  
53:24 which doesn't
allow time?
  
53:26 You have got it, sir?
Have you, please,
  
53:28 intellectually even,
grasped it?
  
53:35 So, if you have
grasped it verbally,
  
53:40 which is the
intellectual process,
  
53:44 and watching intellect,
what it does, the moment you have
  
53:47 grasped it intellectually,
it has already become an idea.
  
53:53 Right?
 
53:55 Of course.
 
54:00 Right, sir?
 
54:01 It has already
become an idea.
  
54:04 Therefore, you have moved
away from perception.
  
54:08 I wonder if you see this.
 
54:11 Right?
 
54:13 So, perception implies
the comprehension
  
54:19 of the word,
 
54:23 the word has a
relative value,
  
54:30 which is the understanding
of the intellect,
  
54:35 and being aware of that
 
54:37 and not letting it
wander off into an idea
  
54:41 - you follow?
 
54:43 And perception implies the
operation of the intellect,
  
54:51 the whole reactions
 
54:58 at their highest level,
 
55:01 and seeing what is exactly
the truth of an image
  
55:06 - right? -
and therefore the ending of it.
  
55:11 Are you doing it or you
are playing with words?
  
55:20 Please, this is...
 
55:22 You understand?
 
55:25 We are saying something
that goes totally contrary
  
55:30 to everything that
you have accepted.
  
55:43 So, what you hear,
 
55:47 don't let that
become a tradition,
  
55:52 then you are lost.
 
55:57 But whereas if
you actually listen
  
56:04 - because what we are
saying is the truth -
  
56:07 that as long as
you have an image
  
56:11 created by your society,
 
56:13 by your colleges,
universities,
  
56:16 by your relationship with
another, and so on, so on,
  
56:18 as long as you have
an image about yourself
  
56:22 that image is
going to get hurt,
  
56:25 and that hurt expresses
itself in various forms
  
56:30 - trying to
dominate people,
  
56:32 trying to withdraw from,
and so on, so on, so on.
  
56:36 Seeing, listening
to the truth of that,
  
56:43 listening with
all your capacity,
  
56:46 your intellect,
every nerve listening,
  
56:52 then that very listening
 
56:54 is the perception
and the ending of it,
  
56:58 which has no time.
 
57:02 You understand this?
 
57:06 That is,
 
57:10 violence is one of
the inherited responses
  
57:15 from the earliest
of times.
  
57:19 Right?
 
57:21 Man has been violent
from timeless time.
  
57:30 And we have done everything
to be free of that violence.
  
57:36 We have invented
non-violence,
  
57:40 an ideal which never
is, it goes overboard.
  
57:44 We have tried
every way
  
57:47 to be gentle, to be
kind, to be generous,
  
57:51 and yet in our hearts,
 
57:53 in our relationship with each
other we are very violent people.
  
57:59 And religions,
religions throughout,
  
58:02 they said, 'Try,
work, forget yourself,
  
58:08 don't be violent,
don't kill,'
  
58:12 but from immemorial time we
are still doing the same thing.
  
58:18 So we say, it
will take time
  
58:22 to dissipate
this violence.
  
58:26 Such a deception,
you follow, sir?
  
58:28 We have taken over
a million years
  
58:31 and we have not
got rid of it,
  
58:33 and we think in another million
years we will be rid of it.
  
58:37 In the meantime
let me be violent.
  
58:41 That is the game
we play.
  
58:45 So, we are saying:
 
58:47 is it possible to end
that violence instantly?
  
58:55 That means the
understanding
  
58:58 that psychologically,
inwardly,
  
59:00 there is no time
at all,
  
59:07 that you don't become.
 
59:11 You follow, sir?
 
59:13 You don't become,
 
59:15 you don't achieve
enlightenment.
  
59:21 Which means the whole
movement of time.
  
59:29 So, we are saying:
 
59:33 observe violence,
 
59:38 which is to be angry,
to hate, to be jealous
  
59:41 - various forms
of violence -
  
59:45 and don't escape into
a non-violent movement,
  
59:53 which is the opposite.
 
59:56 So, when you observe the
fact, there is no opposite.
  
1:00:02 Are you following
all this?
  
1:00:05 I observe violence
in me.
  
1:00:13 I am violent.
 
1:00:16 Why should there
be non-violence?
  
1:00:20 That's my conditioning.
Right?
  
1:00:23 That's my hope.
 
1:00:25 That's my
intellectual concept
  
1:00:28 - one day I will be
non-violent,
  
1:00:32 what is it, what I was
talking about? - violence.
  
1:00:37 So, the fact
of violence,
  
1:00:42 the fact has
no opposite.
  
1:00:46 Right?
 
1:00:48 Do you see that?
 
1:00:50 If you see that, you are
finished. You understand?
  
1:00:57 Because all our education,
all our religion,
  
1:01:03 everything
traditional has said:
  
1:01:08 work at it, gradually get rid of it
- you follow?
  
1:01:11 Which is movement in time,
which is division.
  
1:01:19 Time is division.
 
1:01:23 So, when there's
observation of violence,
  
1:01:29 only violence,
 
1:01:37 the observer who's
watching the violence
  
1:01:42 - you follow? -
 
1:01:44 that very observer
is violence.
  
1:01:47 Right?
 
1:01:50 Right?
 
1:01:51 So, the observer is
the observed.
  
1:01:59 Are you getting tired?
 
1:02:03 You understand, sir?
 
1:02:05 The moment you
have a division
  
1:02:08 it's the movement in time
- right? -
  
1:02:10 and therefore
there must be effort,
  
1:02:14 which is, the
observer is thinking,
  
1:02:17 the observer thinks he is different
from the thing he observes,
  
1:02:22 and so the very
division brings conflict,
  
1:02:27 conflict, suppression,
and all the rest of it.
  
1:02:30 But when the
observer realises,
  
1:02:33 that which he is observing
is part of himself
  
1:02:37 - right? -
so there is no division,
  
1:02:42 there is no duality
at all.
  
1:02:48 Right?
 
1:02:51 So, can you see this
fact that you are violent,
  
1:02:57 and the fact
has no division.
  
1:03:12 So, what has taken
place in the mind?
  
1:03:17 What has taken
place in your mind
  
1:03:21 when you are only
observing the fact
  
1:03:25 and not inventing
the opposite?
  
1:03:29 You understand?
 
1:03:32 That you are jealous,
 
1:03:35 that you are envious,
that is a fact,
  
1:03:41 and that observer is the
observed, which is envy.
  
1:03:49 So there is no
conflict or suppression
  
1:03:52 with regard to a
particular reaction.
  
1:03:58 The reaction is a fact.
 
1:04:01 Now, can the mind
totally observe
  
1:04:07 this reaction which
is a fact called jealousy?
  
1:04:14 You get it, sir?
 
1:04:16 Observe without any
movement of time.
  
1:04:23 The moment you have
the movement of time,
  
1:04:26 you have brought
about division.
  
1:04:37 Is this actually
taking place?
  
1:04:44 Because,
we are saying:
  
1:04:47 you eliminate totally
 
1:04:50 every form of conflict
 
1:04:55 in which we have been
conditioned for millennia.
  
1:05:00 To live without a
single conflict
  
1:05:07 which means to live
without a single problem.
  
1:05:15 I wonder if you
understand this.
  
1:05:22 You may have
technological problems:
  
1:05:26 how to go to the moon
- it took them a long time,
  
1:05:30 300,000 people, I believe,
working at that one thing,
  
1:05:34 that took many years.
 
1:05:46 But if we understand
the nature of time,
  
1:05:54 the whole
structure of time,
  
1:05:57 psychologically as
well as physical time,
  
1:06:02 then we relegate physical
time to its proper place.
  
1:06:09 I have to catch a bus, train,
aeroplane, whatever it is,
  
1:06:13 go to the office,
and so on - knowledge.
  
1:06:18 But psychologically
there is no time.
  
1:06:24 Which means
to live a life
  
1:06:27 without a single
problem.
  
1:06:31 Have you ever gone
into this question?
  
1:06:37 Right?
 
1:06:40 Meditation isn't
a problem,
  
1:06:45 which you are all
making into a problem:
  
1:06:49 how to sit, how to breathe, how
to hold - you know, the system,
  
1:06:53 the methods,
the various gurus
  
1:06:55 offering various
tricks, and all that.
  
1:07:06 What is a problem?
 
1:07:08 I am showing you how to...
- please apply it.
  
1:07:11 Test it in your life and
you will see it will work.
  
1:07:15 What is a problem?
 
1:07:19 A problem is something
that you haven't resolved.
  
1:07:22 There are
mathematical problems,
  
1:07:24 scientific
problems, biological.
  
1:07:28 We are not
talking of those.
  
1:07:29 We are talking about
psychological problems
  
1:07:36 between human beings,
 
1:07:40 the problems that exist
 
1:07:43 in our relationship
with another:
  
1:07:46 husband, wife
- you know, all the rest of it.
  
1:07:50 A problem means,
implies
  
1:07:54 the non-resolution of it.
 
1:07:59 Now, can you
resolve that problem
  
1:08:02 as it arises and end it,
 
1:08:05 not carry it over
 
1:08:07 even for a day?
 
1:08:10 Because, see
what happens:
  
1:08:14 a problem continued
 
1:08:18 makes the brain
dull, actually.
  
1:08:23 You can test it
out for yourself.
  
1:08:30 The brain's activity
is made slower
  
1:08:34 because it is burdened,
 
1:08:37 it makes itself
incapacitated.
  
1:08:38 It has no capacity
of elasticity
  
1:08:42 when you carry
a problem
  
1:08:45 for many, many,
many years,
  
1:08:50 or even for a week.
 
1:08:54 So, the question is:
 
1:08:58 can you end the
problem as it arises?
  
1:09:01 You understand?
 
1:09:08 Are you interested
in all this?
  
1:09:15 Sir, do it.
 
1:09:19 Don't accept the words,
but actually test it.
  
1:09:25 Then it is worth it.
 
1:09:27 But if you say, 'Yes, nice idea,
nice thing, but I can't do it.'
  
1:09:33 Or say, 'Tell
me how to do it,'
  
1:09:37 there is no how,
 
1:09:41 because the how implies
a method, a system,
  
1:09:44 somebody will tell
you what to do.
  
1:09:47 If somebody tells
you what to do,
  
1:09:49 you are back in the
old game of tradition.
  
1:09:53 Right?
 
1:09:57 So, a mind that is clear
has no tradition.
  
1:10:07 So, one has a problem;
 
1:10:10 problem implies
 
1:10:13 that which hasn't
been thought out,
  
1:10:15 investigated, resolved.
 
1:10:24 Our problems exist
 
1:10:28 in the field
of relationship.
  
1:10:32 Right?
 
1:10:42 And between man and
woman, sexual, non-sexual,
  
1:10:47 friendly, non-friendly
- you follow? -
  
1:10:49 the whole communication
between man and man,
  
1:10:54 and woman and man,
the whole field of it,
  
1:10:58 not just one
particular problem,
  
1:11:00 either sexual,
or this, or that.
  
1:11:03 We are dealing
with the whole
  
1:11:06 human problem
in relationship,
  
1:11:11 not a particular
problem.
  
1:11:15 Because, if we were examining
only a particular problem,
  
1:11:20 then we are dealing with
a part and not with the whole.
  
1:11:24 Is that clear?
Oh, come on, sirs!
  
1:11:28 So we are dealing with the whole
problem of human relationship,
  
1:11:34 with the boss,
in the factory,
  
1:11:38 when you come home,
 
1:11:41 your wife, your husband,
 
1:11:43 sex, non-sex,
domination,
  
1:11:47 wanting to
possess, attachment
  
1:11:51 - all that
implies a problem.
  
1:11:54 Right? First of all,
why do we have problems?
  
1:12:00 Why do we live
with problems?
  
1:12:05 You understand?
 
1:12:07 Is it we are lazy,
 
1:12:12 is it that we have
accepted as the norm of life
  
1:12:16 to have problems,
 
1:12:20 or is it, for millennia
we have had problems
  
1:12:24 and why not now,
 
1:12:27 carry on?
 
1:12:29 Which means, the mind
 
1:12:31 the brain has accepted
problems as part of life.
  
1:12:36 Right?
 
1:12:43 So, refuse to accept
problems.
  
1:12:48 You understand?
 
1:12:49 Challenge the brain and the
mind to have no problems.
  
1:12:57 No, don't agree, sir,
you have to do it!
  
1:13:03 Which means
 
1:13:05 if a problem arises,
 
1:13:09 as it inevitably will
 
1:13:13 unless you have real
love in your heart
  
1:13:17 - right? -
 
1:13:20 not sexual love,
not love of power,
  
1:13:24 position and all
that nonsense but...
  
1:13:28 - I won't go into that, that
goes off somewhere else.
  
1:13:36 How to deal
with a problem
  
1:13:38 - right? -
 
1:13:40 without allowing a
single second of interval.
  
1:13:45 Right?
 
1:13:47 We will go into it.
 
1:13:53 A problem arises as long
as there is a centre.
  
1:14:00 Right?
 
1:14:03 As long as there is
a centre
  
1:14:05 there must be
circumference,
  
1:14:08 diameter
- you follow?
  
1:14:10 The whole circle.
 
1:14:14 The whole circle
is our problem.
  
1:14:19 Right?
 
1:14:21 To have no centre
 
1:14:28 is to have no problem.
 
1:14:35 Please, sir, see what
is involved in it,
  
1:14:40 not just shake your head and
say, 'Yes, I agree with you.'
  
1:14:43 It has no meaning,
 
1:14:45 but see what is
implied in it.
  
1:14:50 First of all, the depth of it,
the beauty of it,
  
1:14:52 the rationality of it,
 
1:14:56 the sanity of it,
 
1:14:58 that as long as there is
a 'me' with the centre,
  
1:15:05 I must have problems.
 
1:15:11 Right?
 
1:15:16 It may be very
dangerous problems,
  
1:15:19 destructive problems,
or superficial problems.
  
1:15:26 And as long as there is a
problem, there is no love.
  
1:15:33 But of course, that does not
exist, so we can skip that.
  
1:15:37 We will come back
to it later.
  
1:15:42 So, is it possible to
live in the world,
  
1:15:48 in the modern world, having
a wife, husband, children,
  
1:15:52 going to a job and
all the rest of it,
  
1:15:56 without having a centre?
 
1:15:59 You understand, sir?
 
1:16:06 See the fact,
the fact
  
1:16:10 that as long as
you have a centre
  
1:16:13 there must be
problems,
  
1:16:16 and if you say, 'Well, that's
my life, to have problems,'
  
1:16:18 perfectly right,
carry on.
  
1:16:22 But if you say, 'Problems
are most destructive
  
1:16:28 not only to the brain
 
1:16:30 but the wholeness
of the mind...'
  
1:16:37 the mind that's fit,
alive, active,
  
1:16:46 because every problem is
like a blanket that smothers.
  
1:16:54 So, if you see the fact
 
1:16:55 that the centre is to
have problems - right?
  
1:17:01 No.
 
1:17:03 Not only hear it but
see the truth of it.
  
1:17:16 Then what takes place?
 
1:17:20 You understand?
 
1:17:22 A mind, a being
that has no centre
  
1:17:28 and has to live with
a wife and a husband,
  
1:17:32 and the whole culture
 
1:17:36 - a whole not culture,
I won't call it culture -
  
1:17:39 the whole world,
 
1:17:48 which means you are
acting every minute.
  
1:17:58 Life is action.
Right?
  
1:18:01 But when you act
from a centre,
  
1:18:04 you are introducing
the whole problem.
  
1:18:09 I wonder if you see it.
 
1:18:11 See the cadre of it,
the framework of it,
  
1:18:18 the wholeness of it.
 
1:18:20 That is, the mind that has
functioned with a centre
  
1:18:25 has created
innumerable problems
  
1:18:30 - politically, economically,
socially -
  
1:18:34 and in intimate or not
intimate relationship.
  
1:18:40 And having a problem is the
most destructive way of living.
  
1:18:49 That destroys the youth of the brain
- you understand?
  
1:18:53 the youth of the mind.
 
1:19:01 If you listen to it and see
the truth of it, it is over.
  
1:19:07 There is no how.
 
1:19:12 There is only the
act of listening.
  
1:19:37 Tradition means
- the word -
  
1:19:43 to hand down from
generation to generation
  
1:19:48 values, rituals,
 
1:19:51 dogmas, beliefs,
 
1:19:53 gods, pujas, rituals
- the whole
  
1:19:59 thing that man
is caught in,
  
1:20:03 and in that tradition
nothing can flourish.
  
1:20:12 It is like a steamroller
going over human beings,
  
1:20:17 and if you accept that,
 
1:20:21 all right, live with
it, and be happy with it.
  
1:20:26 But you are not
going to answer
  
1:20:28 the challenge of the
world, the global challenge,
  
1:20:32 which is that man
must free himself
  
1:20:35 from everything
to flower.
  
1:20:39 And the flowering
can only take place
  
1:20:42 in the soil of
human relationship.
  
1:20:47 Right, sir?
 
1:20:48 Not somewhere else in the
Himalayas or in some monastery,
  
1:20:53 even there, he is in relationship
with his fellow being.
  
1:20:59 And culture,
which is to grow,
  
1:21:03 to develop, to
have the highest
  
1:21:06 excellence ethically,
 
1:21:10 is not possible when
you are merely...
  
1:21:14 your mind has become
merely a machine,
  
1:21:19 which tradition does.
 
1:21:24 And tradition has said,
accept time.
  
1:21:34 And somebody comes
along like me, and says,
  
1:21:36 'Don't,
 
1:21:41 you won't find light,
 
1:21:44 enlightenment at
the end of time,
  
1:21:52 you will find it
where you are now.'
  
1:22:00 Right, sirs.
 
1:22:22 I believe, we
will meet tomorrow
  
1:22:25 if you want to.