Krishnamurti Subtitles

Being serious without belief

Malibu - 15 March 1970

Discussion with Small Group 4

0:09 K:Shall we go on
where we left off yesterday?
0:14 Shall we go on
where we left yesterday?
0:21 I was wondering
0:25 how to sustain
a continuous seriousness.
0:46 I think if we could go into that
a little bit and come back
0:50 to what we were talking about.
0:57 Is it the intellect
is not serious at all?
1:19 A fragment of our life,
which is already fragmented,
1:30 seems to take supremacy
over other fragments.
1:36 The one fragment is
this intellectual struggle,
1:45 intellectual assertions,
1:47 theories, formulas, what should
happen, what should not happen
1:51 - you know,
the whole intellectual drama.
2:00 And is the intellect really serious?
2:08 Serious in the sense,
2:15 a sustained total comprehension,
2:24 which has nothing to do
with formula,
2:28 with theory, and belief.
2:33 Can the intellect, a fragment,
be ever serious?
2:46 Serious in the sense,
a continuous drive,
2:52 a continuous, sustained observation
without any distortion.
3:04 And most of us are
intellectually trained
3:12 in a society that demands
the intellectual output
3:17 rather than a total output
of the human being.
3:21 I don't know
if I'm conveying anything.
3:28 Could we go into that a little bit?
3:35 Why has this happened?
3:44 Why has a part of me...
3:48 has become so supreme
3:53 - dictating how the body
should behave,
3:58 what it should eat,
drink, smoke, sex
4:03 - dictating everything,
4:06 and dictating the morality,
4:12 the virtue,
4:14 the social behaviour,
4:17 and the private behaviour
at home, and so on
4:24 - apparently, technologically
and psychologically,
4:29 it has become supreme.
4:39 Why has one part of this whole
structure which is the 'me,'
4:45 why has that become important?
5:09 Q:It seems to me
that part of the reason is
5:11 that we don't know
how to use it properly.
5:14 We don't understand
what it's good for, how it works.
5:23 Q:In the society a specialty
wasn't it necessary
5:26 to have the intellectual development,
5:29 so the technical development,
so we produce the goods.
5:32 Now that we have the goods
we don't need it;
5:34 what we are doing is something
that isn't necessary.
5:36 K:Are you saying, sir,
that technological development,
5:41 which is the intellectual activity,
5:44 has dominated
the whole existence of man?
5:49 Q:It was necessary because
there wasn't enough to go around.
5:52 K:Is that the reason?
Q:But we thought that.
5:56 K:Is that so?
5:59 Q:Like that's part of controlling,
it's part of...
6:03 our whole culture wants to control
nature using the intellect for that
6:08 and each of us tries to control
ourself using the intellect for that.
6:17 K:Sir, watch in yourself
- if I may come back to oneself -
6:24 why has the intellect taken
such extraordinary importance
6:29 in your life, in one's life?
6:33 Leave society, culture,
all that, out
6:38 - why has it taken in one's life
such vital import?
6:46 Q:Isn't it that same
demand for security
6:48 we were talking about yesterday?
6:51 Q:Sir, we think our ideas are
something that don't change.
6:58 K:Look into yourself, sir,
look into yourself.
7:04 Why have you given such...
7:07 why has it taken such importance
in my life, in your life?
7:14 It hasn't in me, but I'm just asking:
why has it?
7:21 Q:Our training was that.
7:25 K:If it wasn't trained, wouldn't
you do exactly the same thing?
7:30 Q:I'm not living in the country,
I think I might...
7:32 K:Ah, wait, sir, wait, sir,
don't be so clear about it.
7:36 I'm not at all sure you wouldn't.
7:38 Q:Living on a farm,
milking the cows...
7:42 K:No, no. Even then
there would be always,
7:46 'My cow is better
than the other cow.'
8:01 Q:That's comparison then.
8:05 K:Comparison - why?
8:10 Push it, sir, push it down
and find out why.
8:15 Why do you do this?
8:25 You understand, sir,
what is implied in this?
8:29 The whole hierarchical
outlook of life, on life
8:35 - the better, the higher,
the nobler,
8:44 the limitation of the verb 'to be' -
8:49 in that which we are caught.
8:53 If you go into it you will see
8:55 why we have given this thing
such a diabolic importance.
9:04 Q:Because I can see one reason,
9:07 it's because the past and
the future are so important.
9:13 We've made the past and
the future very important
9:17 - what will happen
and what did happen.
9:20 That's why we compare.
9:23 It doesn't matter right now
if you have a better cow,
9:25 because what
the whole image presents,
9:27 what happened in the past and
what's going to happen in the future.
9:33 Q:Sir, in order to see
what you mean
9:35 when you say
that we live in the intellect,
9:38 could you perhaps say
what else there is to live in?
9:41 K:Ah, no...
9:42 Q:Because if you say
if we live in the intellect,
9:44 I think that it may not be clear
for us just what that means.
9:51 K:That means, sir
- it's fairly simple -
9:54 the future, the ideal,
the formula, the belief
10:02 - the whole structure
of what should be -
10:07 the utopia, the ideal,
the perfect state, the perfect God,
10:12 the perfect disciple, the perfect
master, the perfect - you follow?
10:17 Q:The controller
you were talking about.
10:18 K:Yes.
10:20 Q:Which means
we're living for something.
10:25 K:Don't... See what is happening,
sir, and from that you'll find out.
10:34 Q:Your question of why
- I've seen a lot of children.
10:39 I've seen, experience
with a lot of children
10:43 and children almost always
compare themselves with others
10:47 - they say, 'My muscles
are bigger than yours,
10:49 my father is stronger than yours.'
10:50 It seems to me it's a part of...
10:54 that everybody grows up
with that universally.
10:57 And we have to then,
through understanding, work it out.
11:00 [Inaudible]
11:03 K:Dr Weininger, you live
- if I may be a little bit...
11:06 not being personal, but...
11:09 - you live in the intellect,
don't you?
11:11 Q:Yes.
11:13 Q:In what way?
11:17 Q:Not so much.
K:No, no, no! Not so...
11:20 not at all or... [laughs] you can't
have a little and not so much.
11:23 But let us see.
11:27 Q:Yes.
11:29 K:You do live in...
we do live in the... Why?
11:42 Q:Because there's seeming security.
11:49 Q:But why?
We really don't know why.
11:52 K:Don't you?
Q:I don't think so.
11:54 K:We'll find out. We'll find out.
12:02 Q:It seems like a lot of it
is to be in touch
12:06 with other people, to communicate.
12:08 K:But we're not at all
in touch with other people.
12:11 Q:It has the opposite effect.
12:12 K:Quite the opposite effect
- it is an isolating process.
12:20 I've isolated myself
12:22 - my image, my formula,
my God, my this,
12:26 and over that I look at somebody
else, but still there is the wall.
12:34 Q:When we answer why, it seems
every time we say something
12:36 we're guessing in a way.
12:37 We're seeing if what we say
actually meets with our experience.
12:43 It doesn't seem like
we're getting anywhere.
12:44 K:Yes, sir, watch it, sir.
Look, go a little bit, sir.
12:50 You're too verbal,
if I may say so - go slow.
12:59 That means we are living
in the future, aren't we?
13:06 The ideal, the formula,
what should be, the better,
13:14 is always over there.
13:18 Why do I live that way?
13:27 Q:[Inaudible]
13:37 K:I live in the past and
in the future - right? -
13:42 I live in my memories,
13:49 in my imagination,
in my hopes, fears
13:55 - they are always the past, despair,
13:58 except hope in the future.
14:02 So living in the past,
14:06 mustn't it inevitably create
a future of idealistic hope?
14:26 I don't live now
but the past and the future.
14:35 I don't know
what it means to live now.
14:40 I really don't know.
14:43 So there is the past and the future.
14:50 Would that be right, sirs?
14:55 Past and the future.
15:03 And - go on -
why do I live in the past?
15:07 I know nothing else but the past.
15:13 What I want to know
about the future is the hope,
15:21 which is its own hell.
15:27 Right? So that's all.
Why do I live this way?
15:33 Q:Yesterday we talked about the fact
15:36 that there was uncertainty
in the present and that...
15:43 K:Ah, ah, I didn't say
uncertainty in the present.
15:46 I want to be certain in the present.
15:51 Q:Secure.
15:52 Q:Secure. Again, that security.
15:55 And there seems to be
security in the past
15:59 because it's something that's known.
16:03 So we cling to that.
16:04 K:We cling to that and yet
I'm living in the future.
16:08 Q:Projecting.
16:10 Q:Living for the future
might be better...
16:12 K:All right, living for the future
- what should be.
16:27 The function
of the intellect apparently
16:28 is to live in the past,
as it has acquired knowledge,
16:33 add to the past through the present,
16:38 and that's living, that's
intellectually operating, functioning
16:44 - scientifically, technologically,
every way.
16:53 And the dissatisfaction of the past
is the hope of the future.
17:02 Because the mind can't be completely
satisfied living in the past.
17:30 Right? Then what?
17:34 Q:Is it because
of the element of time?
17:39 K:That is time. After all,
living in the past is time,
17:43 and the future is time.
17:48 We're asking, sir, aren't we,
17:50 why has the intellect become
so extraordinarily important?
17:58 Q:That includes the emotions,
when you say the intellect?
18:01 K:No. It controls the emotions.
18:04 It says, 'That's good to have
good emotions' - you follow?
18:08 Q:A thought, a prejudice
is an emotion, a feeling.
18:13 It's a strong thought.
18:14 K:Strong thought. I don't...
18:18 Q:So the intellect is not
distinct from the emotions.
18:20 K:I don't like him.
Q:Yes, that's also emotion.
18:24 K:No, wait, sir, look. Is it?
18:26 Q:Because he did something,
because he is a threat...
18:29 K:I don't like him
because he has this.
18:34 It's a conclusion
made by the intellect,
18:40 a thought,
18:41 and the thought doesn't
like that, and so on.
18:45 So, let's... we'll come
to the feeling presently.
18:50 Q:Because when you say intellect,
18:51 people tend to think perhaps
18:53 you're talking about abstract
thinking and cerebral activity.
18:58 K:No, no, no, sir. No, no.
18:59 Q:The intellect
which acts in our life,
19:01 acts in our lives as strong feeling,
and strong prejudice, and drive.
19:07 And that's emotion. But if I
just think, it has no meaning,
19:11 but when I think with feeling then
it does mischief, then it divides,
19:15 then it projects into the future.
19:18 K:That is so. Then what?
19:20 Q:Sir, when you say intellect,
19:24 are you saying intellect
as distinct from emotion
19:26 or are you saying the intellect
19:28 which includes emotion
and emotional response?
19:30 K:Yes. Let's include emotion
for the moment. Let's be clear.
19:33 We include emotion into it
19:35 - prejudice, like, dislike.
19:39 Now, wait a minute.
Q:Yes, part of the same thing.
19:43 K:Why is this happening
all the time in me, in us?
20:03 Q:Sir, as the mind biologically
20:10 must have security,
as you mentioned,
20:16 is it possible that
in a similar fashion
20:21 the organism is striving
for perfection,
20:29 psychically, reaching...
20:43 K:But that perfection
is always in the future,
20:48 striving always to achieve the goal
20:55 which it has invented.
21:00 Q:If we say he we're striving
for security...
21:03 Q:And how about pleasure? It seems
to be related to pleasure then.
21:08 Q:[Inaudible]
21:20 K:Is one aware that the intellect,
21:22 in which is included
all this business,
21:27 that it predominates our life?
21:30 Q:Yes.
K:Then why?
21:36 Q:Is it not a search
for significance?
21:44 K:Significance to life
- to life that has no meaning.
21:53 A life of striving
- you know, all the rest of it -
21:56 and therefore in that
there is no meaning,
22:00 therefore intellect strives to give
a significance or a meaning to it,
22:09 to live differently.
22:11 This is a dull stuff, life is,
and I'll invent a meaning to it
22:16 which will make it interesting.
That's all.
22:19 Q:And I strive some more.
22:23 Q:Sir, I think... [inaudible]
22:31 You mentioned how the mind
must have security... [inaudible]
22:37 K:Not 'I mentioned,' sir, it is.
I mean...
22:40 Q:It is. But you stated it.
22:47 I mean, we know that
the body will compensate
22:55 if you lose one kidney the other
one will grow to twice the size.
23:02 This is compensation.
23:05 Is it possible that there is this
23:08 psychic built-in aim
for compensation in that sense,
23:14 but we find
the wrong ways to do it,
23:17 as we do with the mind
seeking security?
23:39 K:Sir, seeking security
and being secure
23:42 are two different things,
aren't they?
23:43 Q:Yes. We...
23:45 K:Ah, no, no, no
- we are seeking security,
23:50 and we said seeking security does,
23:54 you know, create this mischief.
Q:That gives me insecurity.
23:57 Seeking security is the insecurity.
K:Is insecurity.
24:00 Whereas to be completely secure,
it's finished.
24:03 It's not that I am seeking security
24:06 and therefore finding it
and clinging to it.
24:12 Q:The mind must have it,
as was mentioned, must have it.
24:17 And there is something comparable
24:23 psychically, because...
24:38 this point
there isn't a counterpart
24:44 to this perfection aspect
24:51 as there is for the security aspect,
24:55 but we take the wrong path...
24:57 K:I understand that, sir.
Yes, I understand.
25:05 Q:The biologists say that thought
developed in evolution, based on fear.
25:11 Fear was the basis for evolutionary
development of thought.
25:19 Q:Fear is itself a thought.
25:28 Q:So you are asking, sir,
why one lives in the intellect
25:32 and why there is this
perpetual struggle.
25:36 K:You haven't answered me.
25:38 Q:But isn't that question itself, does
it pose a creation of the intellect?
25:45 K:Yes. But I'm saying
25:48 - and that's only to verbalize
a fact that we do live in it -
25:54 but the thing one has to find out,
25:58 why has this become
so colossally important?
26:04 Q:But what it seems like
we're doing, what I'm doing,
26:07 is that I'm looking at that question
with the intellect,
26:10 and as long as we look at it
with the intellect
26:12 then we're trying to verbalize
and trying to do all this.
26:15 It's the wrong way all the time.
26:22 We're giving evaluations
and analysis of it,
26:27 of the question, and our experience,
but we're still caught in it.
26:33 No matter what we're doing here,
we're still caught in it.
26:42 K:Then, sir, let's look at it round
the other way: What is living?
26:54 There's the body, the whole organism
with all its complex demands,
27:00 the glands, all that
27:05 - both biological and psychological,
27:08 the imposition of
the psyche on the body
27:11 wishing it should be this,
it should act this way
27:16 - and all the emotional nature,
27:23 in which is included
pleasure, enjoyment,
27:29 the delight of looking at...
and so on, so on
27:32 - there's love,
and there's the intellect -
27:38 intellect which reasons,
looks, observes,
27:40 says this is right, this is wrong,
27:42 evaluates and says, 'I should have
done this' - all that.
27:48 Why doesn't all the three
27:52 - the organism, love, mind -
all work together?
27:58 Why this one?
28:03 Why doesn't the whole thing
work harmoniously, you know,
28:06 like a good machine
that's ticking over?
28:26 It cannot be harmonious
28:29 as long as one is large or enormous,
28:32 or one is important
than the others.
28:40 I wonder if the intellect
has assumed supremacy
28:45 because it has conceived security
28:52 in terms of the past or the future.
28:59 And therefore no security
in the present at all.
29:03 You follow?
29:12 It says I've had food today,
I must have food this evening.
29:17 So it struggles to have food
this evening, and tomorrow.
29:22 I must have my pleasure, my sex
- all tomorrow.
29:41 Go on, sirs, let's work it out.
29:48 Or is living in the past,
29:55 in which there's been security,
30:01 and that desire to have
permanent security in the future
30:06 - as I want tomorrow, food -
has built this idea,
30:12 has made the intellect
enormously important.
30:20 Therefore it dominates love,
it dominates the organism,
30:25 it dominates everything.
30:48 And how does it come about
that the three
30:54 - psychosomatic and plus -
live harmoniously, completely
31:03 - you follow?
31:06 not one against the other, battling?
31:12 How do you do this?
How do you bring this about?
31:39 You see, we live
- ah, I'm getting somewhere -
31:41 we live in a centre
31:45 created by the intellect
- right? -
31:52 centre of ideas,
self-centred movement,
31:57 which is still the intellect,
32:01 the centre which is
32:11 self-centred activity -
that's the centre we live in.
32:15 And that centre
must break up, as it does,
32:21 as we see it operating in ourselves
32:23 - that centre is breaking it up
all the time -
32:26 I must live differently, I must
be different - you follow? -
32:29 this should not be, this should be.
32:33 Now, how to break down that centre
32:36 and live in the whole, not in a part?
32:43 I don't know
if I am making myself clear.
32:58 Q:Your first question
interested me very much:
33:01 how do you sustain a seriousness
33:04 when most of us here are living
in the present right now, with you,
33:08 and when we leave
the environment seduces us...
33:13 [inaudible]
33:14 and the sustained seriousness
that we have here doesn't sustain.
33:20 Q:Well, just this instance, I could see
my interest falling the other way,
33:24 and the question drops.
33:34 K:Sir, could we put the whole
question differently?
33:37 How does it happen
that one can live harmoniously,
33:45 so that one or the other
is not overdeveloped,
33:50 one or the other is not in conflict,
33:54 but function, live, act
33:57 as a whole, sane, holy thing?
34:23 Q:I see that something like
building up your muscles, you said...
34:26 K:No, no. No. That means time.
34:32 I have no time
- I'll be dead tomorrow.
34:34 Q:No but what I'm saying is: I see
that... you say overdeveloped...
34:39 K:No, sir. No, no, no. Look, sir,
we said the intellect dominates,
34:50 subjugating the affection,
physical organ, and so on.
34:56 I want, I'm asking myself:
35:01 how does it happen that one
can be completely harmonious?
35:13 Not an idea of harmony
which is in the future,
35:20 but harmonious now?
35:30 Because from there I can create
- you follow? -
35:32 I can write.
Everything will come right.
35:37 Q:We have to quiet this giant muscle
which is the intellect
35:39 that you are talking about.
Q:That's what I'm saying.
35:41 I am saying we are developing
all of the time - we have to stop...
35:44 K:No, no, no, no.
35:48 No, 'we have to stop'
means resistance.
35:51 Q:Which way to stop?
35:55 K:We have to dominate it,
we have to put it down
35:58 - all that is again, we are off.
36:04 Q:I see one can't do that
because that's building it up too.
36:07 K:No, no, no.
That's not my question anymore.
36:11 My question is now:
how can this harmony take place?
36:20 Knowing the other thing
is overdeveloped.
36:36 Which means a life
in which there is no conflict at all.
36:54 Conflict is violence,
you know, all the rest of it
36:57 - so how does this happen?
37:21 Has it anything to do
with awareness?
37:37 Q:Sir, it has to do
with that we are not being aware.
37:46 K:No, no, I'm asking, sir,
I'm asking:
37:52 disharmony,
because we live in disharmony,
38:00 to come upon this harmony,
38:02 I'm asking myself
if awareness is the key to it.
38:07 Q:Awareness of the disharmony?
38:11 K:No, no, no, forget, forget
- you see,
38:14 you're all translating immediately
into something else.
38:20 Awareness of disharmony in order
to be harmonious. I don't mean that.
38:28 I'm asking if awareness is the key
38:33 that brings about,
naturally, harmony.
38:39 Q:Sir, is awareness
an intellectual process?
38:44 Q:Awareness of what, sir?
38:46 Because the businessman
who is generally sharp and cunning
38:49 is in his way tremendously aware.
K:No, sir.
38:51 Q:He's aware of the
slightest advantage.
38:54 Q:Isn't she right?
38:56 Q:Awareness of what?
K:I want to find...
38:58 I'm going to...
We are going to...
38:59 I'm asking you first a question, sir,
39:01 whether awareness is the key to this.
39:05 I don't know what awareness is yet
39:07 - we are going to find out,
we're going to explore it.
39:13 So far one has explored the reason
of disorder and disharmony
39:21 - the supremacy of one or the other,
39:26 this supremacy of the soma,
the body,
39:33 or the supremacy of the intellect
- emotion or the intellect,
39:38 or the appetite
against the intellect,
39:40 and so on, so on, so on
- the battle.
39:44 And I say to myself: has awareness
39:51 - you get it? -
39:52 is the awareness
that will bring harmony,
39:56 that will make everything equal.
40:00 Q:A function which contains
all that and is beyond it.
40:03 K:Yes. I just want
to inquire into it.
40:11 Q:My question was related to that:
40:14 if an awareness of that nature,
of that type,
40:18 you say is not
an intellectual process,
40:20 then what is being aware?
40:24 K:We're going to find out, sir,
we're going to find out.
40:27 We're going to find out
what it means to be aware.
40:34 Because if the intellect says,
'I will calm down,'
40:40 [laughs]
it's a hypocritical thing,
40:45 and I will just hold myself in,
ready to burst at any moment.
40:51 Q:Also that's a calculation.
40:53 K:You follow?
And if the body says,
40:56 'All right then, I have a chance now'
41:00 - [laughter]
- you follow? -
41:03 'Now I can let off the emotions.'
41:06 So can we...
41:12 what does awareness mean?
41:16 Why is awareness important in this?
You follow, sir?
41:22 Here I have a problem.
I have a problem.
41:25 I live in disharmony, in disorder.
41:34 Either the body becomes
extraordinarily demanding,
41:38 vital - you follow? -
41:41 with its lust, with its
appetites, with its...
41:45 or the intellect, or the emotions,
41:51 sentimentality of
- you know.
41:56 And I see that and I say,
41:58 'Now, what is the element
42:02 that will bring all this
into perfect rhythm?'
42:17 So that the body's perfect,
you know, healthy,
42:20 so the emotions are really...
42:22 they are real emotions,
not invented by the intellect,
42:26 and reason, sane, healthy.
42:34 I mean, whole implies - I don't know
if you've looked at that word -
42:38 'whole' means whole,
42:42 in which is implied health, sanity,
42:47 and also 'whole' implies
h- o-l-y - holy -
42:52 all that is in that word.
42:56 Which means the whole thing
is whole, sane.
43:04 Now, what is the thing
that will bring this about?
43:11 Not effort, because effort
means... intellect says,
43:16 'By Jove, I see
that's the way to live,
43:21 and I'm going after it.
43:23 I'm going to train the body,
I'm going to train...'
43:25 - you follow? It's gone.
43:30 Q:If you say that is the way
to live so I'm going after it,
43:33 you haven't really seen it.
K:Of course not, of course not.
43:41 So what is the thing
that will make it whole,
43:47 in which there must be not
the slightest whisper of effort,
44:01 not the slightest directive?
Right, sir?
44:08 Because the moment
the intellect takes charge...
44:17 So the mind must be
free of the directive,
44:24 sense of effort.
44:31 Now, how does this happen?
45:04 Shall I go on, sir?
45:17 Must the thing come from the outside
45:21 or must it begin from the inside out?
45:25 I don't know if I'm using
non-technological words, but...
45:39 So let's tackle it.
What does awareness mean?
45:43 Because I think that is the key.
45:46 I think - I may change it
- you follow, sir? -
45:48 because we are exploring together,
45:50 therefore you may find
something different.
45:53 We are together in this.
45:58 What does it mean?
46:01 I see this.
I see through observation,
46:05 therefore through experiment,
46:11 testing, observing
the fact, the event,
46:17 and learning about it,
and not make from that...
46:21 not acquiring knowledge
but merely learning.
46:25 Because knowledge,
when it becomes knowledge,
46:27 it becomes the intellect and
then it will say it will guide it.
46:30 I don't know if you...
Can we go on from there?
46:35 Q:Could you repeat that again?
46:44 K:What did I say?
Q:Because when you act from knowledge
46:48 then it is again the intellect
which is guiding.
46:51 But learning is not
to act from knowledge,
46:53 it is a state of being
in which knowledge is not acting.
47:02 K:I see, one observes, the fact.
47:08 The fact: the intellect dominates,
47:12 the other two play second fiddle.
47:17 Now, harmony means
functioning together
47:25 as a whole, not as fragments.
47:32 Now, the mind sees this,
sees how it is broken up.
47:40 Right? How does it see it?
47:49 Is the seeing a word?
47:54 Q:Or accumulated knowledge.
47:56 K:No, a word.
47:59 That is, I must see this thing.
48:08 Or do I, by the very fact
of this dialogue, it is exposed
48:16 and I see it as I see it in a map
48:20 - the three operating
in contradiction with each other,
48:24 one dominating, and so on.
Now, how do I see it?
48:37 Q:Is awareness maybe spontaneity?
48:41 K:Not... dangerous word, sir,
if I may say so,
48:44 because to be spontaneous
implies freedom.
48:52 And a mind that is... intellect
that is dominating, is not free.
49:04 How do I see this?
How does the mind see this thing?
49:10 See this fragmentation?
49:12 One fragment supremely important,
the rest are minor?
49:17 I mean, when we use 'see,'
how do you see it, sir?
49:27 You see these three fragments
- one a little taller than the rest.
49:34 And when you say, 'I understand
that,' what do you mean by that?
49:41 Is it a verbal understanding,
49:49 or is it an observation
of what actually is,
49:57 without any distortion
50:01 - saying this must not be,
this should be?
50:05 I don't know if...
How do you look at it?
50:10 Q:Does the seeing allow
for a certain verbal action too?
50:16 Do we ruin it the moment
we ascribe any word to it?
50:20 K:No, I may use words afterwards.
50:23 K:Yes.
Q:The seeing is before the word.
50:27 K:The word - that's right.
Before the word, obviously,
50:29 otherwise the seeing is the word.
50:31 Q:Don't we perhaps immediately...
50:34 K:Yes, that's what
I was warning, too.
50:37 Is it a verbal seeing
or actual seeing?
50:44 Q:How can you see it if your mind
is always condemning?
50:47 Your censor is interfering,
and you can't see it.
50:51 K:Yes, doctor, but look, sir,
this is a fact, isn't it?
50:56 Q:Yes.
K:The fact that one is these three.
50:59 Q:Yes, that's right.
K:That's a fact.
51:01 Now, how do you look at that fact?
51:06 Q:I'm saying
you can't look at it without...
51:08 K:No, no, no, I'm not interested
in your condemnation,
51:10 judgment, evaluation
- then you don't see.
51:16 So put aside all that and look.
51:21 Then how do you see it?
51:32 If you put that out
51:34 - if you put... justification,
condemnation, all the rest of it,
51:41 aren't you looking harmoniously?
51:43 Q:[Inaudible]
51:44 K:No, sir, no, sir, no, sir,
do go slow.
51:57 Are you looking
through the intellect,
52:01 which justifies, condemns,
says this is right,
52:04 society has produced this,
etc., etc.
52:08 - which is all the act
of the intellect -
52:12 and when you put aside justification,
condemnation and all that,
52:16 how do you look at it?
52:24 Q:You look attentively at the whole.
K:Do you?
52:28 Don't theorize about it,
then we play tricks.
52:42 Can you look at this table, sir,
52:45 without being caught
in the description?
52:59 Because the description
is not the table.
53:04 Right? Can you look at it
without the word?
53:10 Saying it's a marble, I like it,
I don't like it, strange painting
53:13 - you know, all the rest of it,
go through it -
53:17 how ugly, how beautiful, etc., etc.
53:20 - just to observe.
53:25 Q:And even observe
without looking at a table.
53:28 K:Ah, no, no - how can I observe
without looking at...
53:32 Q:It's a great idea.
53:34 K:Then you are looking
at the idea of a table.
53:43 Can you look that way?
53:49 And when you do look that way,
don't you see the whole of it,
53:54 not just what you think it should be.
54:05 So can the mind look
at the three fragments
54:14 without the word,
54:19 and therefore justification,
or adjustment, and so on,
54:24 without all that,
can the mind look at this fact?
54:31 T:Five minutes left.
54:36 K:He wants five minute's rest.
54:40 T:There are five minutes left.
54:41 K:I see.
54:51 Q:It has to become quiet.
54:59 K:Does it, sir - quiet?
What does that mean?
55:03 Q:I can't see this table -
thoughts keep coming in to block it.
55:10 K:No, sir.
55:13 Look, sir, do look at it, it's
very interesting, do look at it.
55:17 If you really want to look
at that table, is there any thought?
55:28 When you are inattentive,
all the things happen.
55:39 Therefore awareness and attention
is the factor of harmony.
55:49 I don't know if you are...
55:54 If I don't look...
if the mind doesn't look...
55:59 if the mind looks
with any distortion,
56:03 which is of effort,
judgment, etc., etc.,
56:07 then the observation is distorted,
56:12 disharmony, not harmonious.
56:15 Now, to look at it with harmony
56:19 is to look at these fragments
56:25 without any distortion, prejudice,
56:28 want, must not, all the rest of it.
56:35 And doesn't that
itself create silence?
56:45 Not the mind must become silent
but that itself...
56:49 Q:The looking.
56:53 K:If I want to look at that tree,
56:55 or that sunset, or these
lovely hills, I look.
57:01 And that very look
wipes away everything else.
57:05 Q:Are you saying we're not
interested in looking?
57:08 K:No, no. No.
57:11 Then you will say, 'How am I
to have the interest?' [Laughs]
57:16 We are caught in a trap then.
57:21 But to see the fact
that we live in disharmony,
57:28 to see how this disharmony,
this disorder has come into being
57:33 - of intellect, and so on, so on -
just to see it.
57:42 And the very seeing of it
has its own silence.
57:55 Because without...
57:56 if there is a noise
I can't look at those mountains.
58:02 The very looking at those mountains
58:08 is bringing about its own silence.
58:24 So how do you look?
58:26 Through the intellect?
58:34 Do you look at that tree,
those hills,
58:37 or do you look at these fragments,
the intellect, and so on
58:43 - how do you look at all this?
With chattering?
59:11 Can we look at this question
in another way?
59:22 You know, control
59:30 has apparently become
extraordinarily important,
59:33 because they say you must have...
59:38 the body must be
completely controlled,
59:44 your mind must be completely held
59:49 so that it doesn't wander off.
59:54 And your emotions and everything
must be trained.
1:00:01 So, meditation implies to make
the body sit completely quiet.
1:00:11 That's the beginning of it.
1:00:14 And to make that body
completely quiet,
1:00:18 train it by being aware
of every movement of the body.
1:00:26 Right? I don't know if you
have ever gone into all this.
1:00:32 Watch your body move,
or make the body move
1:00:36 - the toe, the ankle, the knee,
and so on -
1:00:40 gradually watch it, watch it.
1:00:43 You follow, sir?
1:00:46 So out of this watching, the body
becomes extraordinarily healthy.
1:00:52 I don't know if...
1:00:56 Have you ever played
with this kind of stuff?
1:01:03 So, then in the same way, watch
your emotions, watch your thoughts,
1:01:09 watch so that it doesn't move away
1:01:14 from the direction it has been set.
1:01:20 Which is, 'I must think of God.'
1:01:23 I'm using the word 'God,'
or an ideal,
1:01:26 or some phrase, or something,
or other
1:01:28 - Jesus, the Buddha, what it is.
1:01:31 So that there is...
your mind is held in that line,
1:01:38 in that groove.
1:01:41 So control has been imposed on this,
1:01:47 and we have accepted this
1:01:50 as the way of leading
a very straight, orderly life.
1:02:01 That is very disorder...
that itself is disorder.
1:02:11 I don't know if you see this,
because that means,
1:02:13 you know, the whole thing
is resistance.
1:02:18 Q:One idea is dominating...
K:I mean the whole...
1:02:27 We are saying don't do that,
that's all wrong, but be aware.
1:02:37 Be aware without distortion,
without choice,
1:02:44 without giving a direction.
1:02:50 And that very awareness
will make the body quiet.
1:02:54 You follow?
1:03:00 Not the other way.
1:03:05 I don't know if you...
1:03:07 Q:Will you discuss anger
from the same point of view?
1:03:09 I'd like to hear you
talk about anger.
1:03:11 K:Anger.
1:03:14 from this point of view
of an awareness. You get angry.
1:03:19 K:No, I don't think
you'll ever be angry.
1:03:25 And therefore there's
no need for suppression.
1:03:28 You're ahead of anger.
I don't know...
1:03:32 Sorry to put it that way.
1:03:33 Q:The reason I mention this is because
psychologists and psychiatrists...
1:03:37 K:You see it coming, you can feel it,
1:03:40 and you know how to deal with it.
1:03:46 We know how to deal with it
after it happens.
1:03:50 Awareness is to see it
arise and deal with...
1:03:54 and soften it down as it happens.
1:04:06 Q:You are saying that we will
really know how to deal with it.
1:04:14 Now it's a matter of our doing it.
It really will happen...
1:04:19 K:Sir, do it now,
you will see it for yourself
1:04:24 what extraordinary thing this is.
1:04:29 Not because I say.
What I say has no importance, but...
1:04:32 Q:[Inaudible]
...the total organism...
1:04:38 K:Yes, sir, obviously.
1:04:40 A man who is extraordinarily
energetic is not angry.
1:04:54 A man who has got this sense
of complete harmony,
1:04:57 you know, complete security,
then what in...
1:05:01 I mean - sorry!
1:05:08 Q:Is it true that... does love always
flow out of this full awareness?
1:05:13 K:Ah, no, no.
Sir... [laughs]
1:05:21 Do you think a flower that is full
of perfume saying, 'This is love'?
1:05:31 Q:I don't mean the idea of love.
1:05:33 K:I'm saying a flower
- there it is.
1:05:36 It's got so much perfume,
lovely, so tender...
1:05:53 Intellect says
love must be personal,
1:05:56 impersonal, godly, noble, fine,
this, that - you know? -
1:06:02 make a nice mess of it.
1:06:13 I mean, this whole Catholic world
is now in revolution
1:06:16 because it has accepted
1:06:19 that in the service of God
you must be a celibate.
1:06:25 Q:Or pretend to be, or seem to be.
1:06:29 K:Celibate - don't actually
sleep with a woman
1:06:32 but bottle it inside yourself
but don't do it outwardly.
1:06:38 And also it's the same in India,
the same in Asia.
1:06:43 They boil, burn,
destroy themselves inwardly,
1:06:46 but outwardly Jesus, and Buddha,
and, you know, all the rest of it.
1:06:58 So we are saying,
seeing all this phenomenon,
1:07:06 the harmonious life
is only possible
1:07:16 in the observation
of the fact, the event,
1:07:22 and looking at it
- and nothing else.
1:07:30 How you look matters,
1:07:33 not what you look at.
I don't know...
1:07:43 If there is a distance between
the observer and the observed
1:07:49 then it's finished.
1:07:54 Q:If there is an observer.
K:If there is an observer.
1:08:02 The flower with perfume doesn't say,
1:08:05 'This is love, this is beauty,
1:08:07 I am full of this,
I am full of that' - it is that.
1:08:23 Q:Sir, the very situation,
1:08:25 the distance between
the observer and the observed.
1:08:28 Is there another way
of putting that phrase 'distance,'
1:08:34 is there another way
of looking at that?
1:08:38 K:Another way of looking at it, sir,
1:08:40 is to look at it
without the observer,
1:08:46 to look at it so that there is
only this thing that's observed,
1:08:53 not the interpretation
of what is observed.
1:09:00 And when you do look
at the fragments
1:09:04 - intellect and all the rest of it -
1:09:07 as the non-observer,
are there fragments?
1:09:15 I don't know if you...
You follow, sir?
1:09:22 The observer is a fragment.
1:09:28 The observer observes the fragments,
1:09:32 the three fragments.
1:09:35 And so he becomes
the separate entity,
1:09:39 an outsider who is looking in.
1:09:43 But the observer is
the thing that he observes.
1:09:50 He may put himself outside
but he's part of those three.
1:09:55 So the observer is the observed,
1:09:58 and therefore no distance.
1:10:01 And can the mind look that way
without identifying,
1:10:07 saying, 'I am the whole, I am this.'
1:10:20 Sir, look, another extraordinary
thing takes place when you look...
1:10:25 I mean, to look, as we generally do,
as the observer and the observed,
1:10:33 that has created its own discipline,
1:10:42 its own disorder.
1:10:46 But to look without the observer
requires a discipline
1:10:53 in the sense of tremendous
learning to look.
1:11:01 Right?
1:11:02 Q:Learning in looking.
K:Learning in looking.
1:11:05 Q:Not in... [inaudible]
1:11:08 Q:But doesn't that take time?
K:No, sir.
1:11:10 Q:The two are the same.
K:No, sir, it doesn't take time.
1:11:14 Look, sir, look at those mountains
without the observer
1:11:21 - just look, sir,
and see what takes place.
1:11:29 I wish you were sitting here
instead of me; you would see it.
1:11:52 You see, that's really quite...
1:11:54 To look without the image
- you follow, sir? -
1:11:57 that's what it means
- to look at my wife, husband,
1:12:02 the hills, the trees, the birds,
1:12:04 the whole movement of this beauty
without the image.
1:12:19 Because the image is the observer.
1:12:22 The image is the intellect.
1:12:25 You see, sir, how tied it is?
1:12:31 How tied together it all is.
1:12:41 So one has to take the whole of it
or not at all. [Laughs]
1:12:51 You can't say,
'Well, I like a fragment of it,
1:12:54 I am going to use it.'
1:12:56 Then you are going to destroy
the whole thing.
1:13:03 Q:Could you say a few
more words about that,
1:13:07 this sustained seriousness -
1:13:09 For a while we can sustain it.
1:13:12 You brought up
the question yourself,
1:13:14 because I haven't heard
you say anything about it:
1:13:16 sustained seriousness.
1:13:19 K:Sustained... We have done this.
A whole hour we have spent at it!
1:13:22 Q:[Inaudible]
1:13:24 K:Ah! If you spent
a whole hour and a half at this,
1:13:28 you will do it the rest
of the time, naturally.
1:13:34 Including going to the cinema.
1:13:45 Q:This doesn't leave out playfulness,
does it? [Laughter]
1:13:50 Q:I hope not.
1:13:54 K:It all depends on what you mean
by playfulness. [Laughter]
1:13:59 Q:[Inaudible]
1:14:04 K:Sir, that means enjoyment
is something entirely different
1:14:08 - joy is entirely different
from pleasure.
1:14:11 Q:Yes.
K:Ah, no!
1:14:16 Q:I think there is
some kind of a connotation
1:14:20 to the word 'seriousness' that...
1:14:22 K:Of course, of course.
Q:To the word.
1:14:28 K:What time is it, sir?
Q:Half past twelve, sir.
1:14:31 K:Oh, I think we'd better stop,
don't you?