Krishnamurti Subtitles

Being serious without belief

Malibu - 15 March 1970

Discussion with Small Group 4



0:09 K:Shall we go on
where we left off yesterday?
  
0:14 Shall we go on
where we left yesterday?
  
0:21 I was wondering
 
0:25 how to sustain
a continuous seriousness.
  
0:46 I think if we could go into that
a little bit and come back
  
0:50 to what we were talking about.
 
0:57 Is it the intellect
is not serious at all?
  
1:19 A fragment of our life,
which is already fragmented,
  
1:30 seems to take supremacy
over other fragments.
  
1:36 The one fragment is
this intellectual struggle,
  
1:45 intellectual assertions,
 
1:47 theories, formulas, what should
happen, what should not happen
  
1:51 - you know,
the whole intellectual drama.
  
2:00 And is the intellect really serious?
 
2:08 Serious in the sense,
 
2:15 a sustained total comprehension,
 
2:24 which has nothing to do
with formula,
  
2:28 with theory, and belief.
 
2:33 Can the intellect, a fragment,
be ever serious?
  
2:46 Serious in the sense,
a continuous drive,
  
2:52 a continuous, sustained observation
without any distortion.
  
3:04 And most of us are
intellectually trained
  
3:12 in a society that demands
the intellectual output
  
3:17 rather than a total output
of the human being.
  
3:21 I don't know
if I'm conveying anything.
  
3:28 Could we go into that a little bit?
 
3:35 Why has this happened?
 
3:44 Why has a part of me...
 
3:48 has become so supreme
 
3:53 - dictating how the body
should behave,
  
3:58 what it should eat,
drink, smoke, sex
  
4:03 - dictating everything,
 
4:06 and dictating the morality,
 
4:12 the virtue,
 
4:14 the social behaviour,
 
4:17 and the private behaviour
at home, and so on
  
4:24 - apparently, technologically
and psychologically,
  
4:29 it has become supreme.
Why?
  
4:39 Why has one part of this whole
structure which is the 'me,'
  
4:45 why has that become important?
 
5:09 Q:It seems to me
that part of the reason is
  
5:11 that we don't know
how to use it properly.
  
5:14 We don't understand
what it's good for, how it works.
  
5:23 Q:In the society a specialty
wasn't it necessary
  
5:26 to have the intellectual development,
 
5:29 so the technical development,
so we produce the goods.
  
5:32 Now that we have the goods
we don't need it;
  
5:34 what we are doing is something
that isn't necessary.
  
5:36 K:Are you saying, sir,
that technological development,
  
5:41 which is the intellectual activity,
 
5:44 has dominated
the whole existence of man?
  
5:49 Q:It was necessary because
there wasn't enough to go around.
  
5:52 K:Is that the reason?
Q:But we thought that.
  
5:56 K:Is that so?
Q:No.
  
5:59 Q:Like that's part of controlling,
it's part of...
  
6:03 our whole culture wants to control
nature using the intellect for that
  
6:08 and each of us tries to control
ourself using the intellect for that.
  
6:17 K:Sir, watch in yourself
- if I may come back to oneself -
  
6:24 why has the intellect taken
such extraordinary importance
  
6:29 in your life, in one's life?
 
6:33 Leave society, culture,
all that, out
  
6:38 - why has it taken in one's life
such vital import?
  
6:46 Q:Isn't it that same
demand for security
  
6:48 we were talking about yesterday?
 
6:51 Q:Sir, we think our ideas are
something that don't change.
  
6:58 K:Look into yourself, sir,
look into yourself.
  
7:04 Why have you given such...
 
7:07 why has it taken such importance
in my life, in your life?
  
7:14 It hasn't in me, but I'm just asking:
why has it?
  
7:21 Q:Our training was that.
 
7:25 K:If it wasn't trained, wouldn't
you do exactly the same thing?
  
7:30 Q:I'm not living in the country,
I think I might...
  
7:32 K:Ah, wait, sir, wait, sir,
don't be so clear about it.
  
7:36 I'm not at all sure you wouldn't.
 
7:38 Q:Living on a farm,
milking the cows...
  
7:42 K:No, no. Even then
there would be always,
  
7:46 'My cow is better
than the other cow.'
  
8:01 Q:That's comparison then.
 
8:05 K:Comparison - why?
 
8:10 Push it, sir, push it down
and find out why.
  
8:15 Why do you do this?
 
8:25 You understand, sir,
what is implied in this?
  
8:29 The whole hierarchical
outlook of life, on life
  
8:35 - the better, the higher,
the nobler,
  
8:44 the limitation of the verb 'to be' -
 
8:49 in that which we are caught.
 
8:53 If you go into it you will see
 
8:55 why we have given this thing
such a diabolic importance.
  
9:04 Q:Because I can see one reason,
 
9:07 it's because the past and
the future are so important.
  
9:13 We've made the past and
the future very important
  
9:17 - what will happen
and what did happen.
  
9:20 That's why we compare.
 
9:23 It doesn't matter right now
if you have a better cow,
  
9:25 because what
the whole image presents,
  
9:27 what happened in the past and
what's going to happen in the future.
  
9:33 Q:Sir, in order to see
what you mean
  
9:35 when you say
that we live in the intellect,
  
9:38 could you perhaps say
what else there is to live in?
  
9:41 K:Ah, no...
 
9:42 Q:Because if you say
if we live in the intellect,
  
9:44 I think that it may not be clear
for us just what that means.
  
9:51 K:That means, sir
- it's fairly simple -
  
9:54 the future, the ideal,
the formula, the belief
  
10:02 - the whole structure
of what should be -
  
10:07 the utopia, the ideal,
the perfect state, the perfect God,
  
10:12 the perfect disciple, the perfect
master, the perfect - you follow?
  
10:17 Q:The controller
you were talking about.
  
10:18 K:Yes.
 
10:20 Q:Which means
we're living for something.
  
10:25 K:Don't... See what is happening,
sir, and from that you'll find out.
  
10:34 Q:Your question of why
- I've seen a lot of children.
  
10:39 I've seen, experience
with a lot of children
  
10:43 and children almost always
compare themselves with others
  
10:47 - they say, 'My muscles
are bigger than yours,
  
10:49 my father is stronger than yours.'
 
10:50 It seems to me it's a part of...
 
10:54 that everybody grows up
with that universally.
  
10:57 And we have to then,
through understanding, work it out.
  
11:00 [Inaudible]
 
11:03 K:Dr Weininger, you live
- if I may be a little bit...
  
11:06 not being personal, but...
 
11:09 - you live in the intellect,
don't you?
  
11:11 Q:Yes.
K:Why?
  
11:13 Q:In what way?
K:Ideation.
  
11:17 Q:Not so much.
K:No, no, no! Not so...
  
11:20 not at all or... [laughs] you can't
have a little and not so much.
  
11:23 But let us see.
 
11:27 Q:Yes.
 
11:29 K:You do live in...
we do live in the... Why?
  
11:42 Q:Because there's seeming security.
 
11:49 Q:But why?
We really don't know why.
  
11:52 K:Don't you?
Q:I don't think so.
  
11:54 K:We'll find out. We'll find out.
 
12:02 Q:It seems like a lot of it
is to be in touch
  
12:06 with other people, to communicate.
 
12:08 K:But we're not at all
in touch with other people.
  
12:11 Q:It has the opposite effect.
 
12:12 K:Quite the opposite effect
- it is an isolating process.
  
12:20 I've isolated myself
 
12:22 - my image, my formula,
my God, my this,
  
12:26 and over that I look at somebody
else, but still there is the wall.
  
12:34 Q:When we answer why, it seems
every time we say something
  
12:36 we're guessing in a way.
 
12:37 We're seeing if what we say
actually meets with our experience.
  
12:43 It doesn't seem like
we're getting anywhere.
  
12:44 K:Yes, sir, watch it, sir.
Look, go a little bit, sir.
  
12:50 You're too verbal,
if I may say so - go slow.
  
12:59 That means we are living
in the future, aren't we?
  
13:06 The ideal, the formula,
what should be, the better,
  
13:14 is always over there.
Right?
  
13:18 Why do I live that way?
 
13:27 Q:[Inaudible]
 
13:37 K:I live in the past and
in the future - right? -
  
13:42 I live in my memories,
 
13:49 in my imagination,
in my hopes, fears
  
13:55 - they are always the past, despair,
 
13:58 except hope in the future.
 
14:02 So living in the past,
 
14:06 mustn't it inevitably create
a future of idealistic hope?
  
14:26 I don't live now
but the past and the future.
  
14:35 I don't know
what it means to live now.
  
14:40 I really don't know.
 
14:43 So there is the past and the future.
 
14:50 Would that be right, sirs?
 
14:55 Past and the future.
 
15:03 And - go on -
why do I live in the past?
  
15:07 I know nothing else but the past.
 
15:13 What I want to know
about the future is the hope,
  
15:21 which is its own hell.
 
15:27 Right? So that's all.
Why do I live this way?
  
15:33 Q:Yesterday we talked about the fact
 
15:36 that there was uncertainty
in the present and that...
  
15:43 K:Ah, ah, I didn't say
uncertainty in the present.
  
15:46 I want to be certain in the present.
 
15:51 Q:Secure.
K:Secure.
  
15:52 Q:Secure. Again, that security.
 
15:55 And there seems to be
security in the past
  
15:59 because it's something that's known.
 
16:03 So we cling to that.
 
16:04 K:We cling to that and yet
I'm living in the future.
  
16:08 Q:Projecting.
 
16:10 Q:Living for the future
might be better...
  
16:12 K:All right, living for the future
- what should be.
  
16:27 The function
of the intellect apparently
  
16:28 is to live in the past,
as it has acquired knowledge,
  
16:33 add to the past through the present,
 
16:38 and that's living, that's
intellectually operating, functioning
  
16:44 - scientifically, technologically,
every way.
  
16:53 And the dissatisfaction of the past
is the hope of the future.
  
17:02 Because the mind can't be completely
satisfied living in the past.
  
17:30 Right? Then what?
 
17:34 Q:Is it because
of the element of time?
  
17:39 K:That is time. After all,
living in the past is time,
  
17:43 and the future is time.
 
17:48 We're asking, sir, aren't we,
 
17:50 why has the intellect become
so extraordinarily important?
  
17:58 Q:That includes the emotions,
when you say the intellect?
  
18:01 K:No. It controls the emotions.
 
18:04 It says, 'That's good to have
good emotions' - you follow?
  
18:08 Q:A thought, a prejudice
is an emotion, a feeling.
  
18:13 It's a strong thought.
 
18:14 K:Strong thought. I don't...
 
18:18 Q:So the intellect is not
distinct from the emotions.
  
18:20 K:I don't like him.
Q:Yes, that's also emotion.
  
18:24 K:No, wait, sir, look. Is it?
 
18:26 Q:Because he did something,
because he is a threat...
  
18:29 K:I don't like him
because he has this.
  
18:34 It's a conclusion
made by the intellect,
  
18:40 a thought,
 
18:41 and the thought doesn't
like that, and so on.
  
18:45 So, let's... we'll come
to the feeling presently.
  
18:50 Q:Because when you say intellect,
 
18:51 people tend to think perhaps
 
18:53 you're talking about abstract
thinking and cerebral activity.
  
18:58 K:No, no, no, sir. No, no.
 
18:59 Q:The intellect
which acts in our life,
  
19:01 acts in our lives as strong feeling,
and strong prejudice, and drive.
  
19:07 And that's emotion. But if I
just think, it has no meaning,
  
19:11 but when I think with feeling then
it does mischief, then it divides,
  
19:15 then it projects into the future.
 
19:18 K:That is so. Then what?
 
19:20 Q:Sir, when you say intellect,
 
19:24 are you saying intellect
as distinct from emotion
  
19:26 or are you saying the intellect
 
19:28 which includes emotion
and emotional response?
  
19:30 K:Yes. Let's include emotion
for the moment. Let's be clear.
  
19:33 We include emotion into it
 
19:35 - prejudice, like, dislike.
 
19:39 Now, wait a minute.
Q:Yes, part of the same thing.
  
19:43 K:Why is this happening
all the time in me, in us?
  
20:03 Q:Sir, as the mind biologically
 
20:10 must have security,
as you mentioned,
  
20:16 is it possible that
in a similar fashion
  
20:21 the organism is striving
for perfection,
  
20:29 psychically, reaching...
[inaudible]
  
20:43 K:But that perfection
is always in the future,
  
20:48 striving always to achieve the goal
 
20:55 which it has invented.
 
21:00 Q:If we say he we're striving
for security...
  
21:03 Q:And how about pleasure? It seems
to be related to pleasure then.
  
21:08 Q:[Inaudible]
 
21:20 K:Is one aware that the intellect,
 
21:22 in which is included
all this business,
  
21:27 that it predominates our life?
 
21:30 Q:Yes.
K:Then why?
  
21:36 Q:Is it not a search
for significance?
  
21:44 K:Significance to life
- to life that has no meaning.
  
21:53 A life of striving
- you know, all the rest of it -
  
21:56 and therefore in that
there is no meaning,
  
22:00 therefore intellect strives to give
a significance or a meaning to it,
  
22:09 to live differently.
 
22:11 This is a dull stuff, life is,
and I'll invent a meaning to it
  
22:16 which will make it interesting.
That's all.
  
22:19 Q:And I strive some more.
 
22:23 Q:Sir, I think... [inaudible]
 
22:31 You mentioned how the mind
must have security... [inaudible]
  
22:37 K:Not 'I mentioned,' sir, it is.
I mean...
  
22:40 Q:It is. But you stated it.
 
22:47 I mean, we know that
the body will compensate
  
22:55 if you lose one kidney the other
one will grow to twice the size.
  
23:02 This is compensation.
 
23:05 Is it possible that there is this
 
23:08 psychic built-in aim
for compensation in that sense,
  
23:14 but we find
the wrong ways to do it,
  
23:17 as we do with the mind
seeking security?
  
23:39 K:Sir, seeking security
and being secure
  
23:42 are two different things,
aren't they?
  
23:43 Q:Yes. We...
 
23:45 K:Ah, no, no, no
- we are seeking security,
  
23:50 and we said seeking security does,
 
23:54 you know, create this mischief.
Q:That gives me insecurity.
  
23:57 Seeking security is the insecurity.
K:Is insecurity.
  
24:00 Whereas to be completely secure,
it's finished.
  
24:03 It's not that I am seeking security
 
24:06 and therefore finding it
and clinging to it.
  
24:12 Q:The mind must have it,
as was mentioned, must have it.
  
24:17 And there is something comparable
 
24:23 psychically, because...
[inaudible]
  
24:38 ...at this point
there isn't a counterpart
  
24:44 to this perfection aspect
 
24:51 as there is for the security aspect,
 
24:55 but we take the wrong path...
 
24:57 K:I understand that, sir.
Yes, I understand.
  
25:05 Q:The biologists say that thought
developed in evolution, based on fear.
  
25:11 Fear was the basis for evolutionary
development of thought.
  
25:19 Q:Fear is itself a thought.
 
25:28 Q:So you are asking, sir,
why one lives in the intellect
  
25:32 and why there is this
perpetual struggle.
  
25:36 K:You haven't answered me.
[Laughs]
  
25:38 Q:But isn't that question itself, does
it pose a creation of the intellect?
  
25:45 K:Yes. But I'm saying
 
25:48 - and that's only to verbalize
a fact that we do live in it -
  
25:54 but the thing one has to find out,
 
25:58 why has this become
so colossally important?
  
26:04 Q:But what it seems like
we're doing, what I'm doing,
  
26:07 is that I'm looking at that question
with the intellect,
  
26:10 and as long as we look at it
with the intellect
  
26:12 then we're trying to verbalize
and trying to do all this.
  
26:15 It's the wrong way all the time.
 
26:22 We're giving evaluations
and analysis of it,
  
26:27 of the question, and our experience,
but we're still caught in it.
  
26:33 No matter what we're doing here,
we're still caught in it.
  
26:42 K:Then, sir, let's look at it round
the other way: What is living?
  
26:54 There's the body, the whole organism
with all its complex demands,
  
27:00 the glands, all that
 
27:05 - both biological and psychological,
 
27:08 the imposition of
the psyche on the body
  
27:11 wishing it should be this,
it should act this way
  
27:16 - and all the emotional nature,
 
27:23 in which is included
pleasure, enjoyment,
  
27:29 the delight of looking at...
and so on, so on
  
27:32 - there's love,
and there's the intellect -
  
27:38 intellect which reasons,
looks, observes,
  
27:40 says this is right, this is wrong,
 
27:42 evaluates and says, 'I should have
done this' - all that.
  
27:48 Why doesn't all the three
 
27:52 - the organism, love, mind -
all work together?
  
27:58 Why this one?
 
28:03 Why doesn't the whole thing
work harmoniously, you know,
  
28:06 like a good machine
that's ticking over?
  
28:26 It cannot be harmonious
 
28:29 as long as one is large or enormous,
 
28:32 or one is important
than the others.
  
28:40 I wonder if the intellect
has assumed supremacy
  
28:45 because it has conceived security
 
28:52 in terms of the past or the future.
 
28:59 And therefore no security
in the present at all.
  
29:03 You follow?
 
29:12 It says I've had food today,
I must have food this evening.
  
29:17 So it struggles to have food
this evening, and tomorrow.
  
29:22 I must have my pleasure, my sex
- all tomorrow.
  
29:41 Go on, sirs, let's work it out.
 
29:48 Or is living in the past,
 
29:55 in which there's been security,
 
30:01 and that desire to have
permanent security in the future
  
30:06 - as I want tomorrow, food -
has built this idea,
  
30:12 has made the intellect
enormously important.
  
30:20 Therefore it dominates love,
it dominates the organism,
  
30:25 it dominates everything.
 
30:48 And how does it come about
that the three
  
30:54 - psychosomatic and plus -
live harmoniously, completely
  
31:03 - you follow?
 
31:06 not one against the other, battling?
 
31:12 How do you do this?
How do you bring this about?
  
31:39 You see, we live
- ah, I'm getting somewhere -
  
31:41 we live in a centre
 
31:45 created by the intellect
- right? -
  
31:52 centre of ideas,
self-centred movement,
  
31:57 which is still the intellect,
 
32:01 the centre which is
self-perpetuating,
  
32:11 self-centred activity -
that's the centre we live in.
  
32:15 And that centre
must break up, as it does,
  
32:21 as we see it operating in ourselves
 
32:23 - that centre is breaking it up
all the time -
  
32:26 I must live differently, I must
be different - you follow? -
  
32:29 this should not be, this should be.
 
32:33 Now, how to break down that centre
 
32:36 and live in the whole, not in a part?
 
32:43 I don't know
if I am making myself clear.
  
32:58 Q:Your first question
interested me very much:
  
33:01 how do you sustain a seriousness
 
33:04 when most of us here are living
in the present right now, with you,
  
33:08 and when we leave
the environment seduces us...
  
33:13 [inaudible]
 
33:14 and the sustained seriousness
that we have here doesn't sustain.
  
33:20 Q:Well, just this instance, I could see
my interest falling the other way,
  
33:24 and the question drops.
 
33:34 K:Sir, could we put the whole
question differently?
  
33:37 How does it happen
that one can live harmoniously,
  
33:45 so that one or the other
is not overdeveloped,
  
33:50 one or the other is not in conflict,
 
33:54 but function, live, act
 
33:57 as a whole, sane, holy thing?
 
34:23 Q:I see that something like
building up your muscles, you said...
  
34:26 K:No, no. No. That means time.
 
34:32 I have no time
- I'll be dead tomorrow.
  
34:34 Q:No but what I'm saying is: I see
that... you say overdeveloped...
  
34:39 K:No, sir. No, no, no. Look, sir,
we said the intellect dominates,
  
34:50 subjugating the affection,
physical organ, and so on.
  
34:56 I want, I'm asking myself:
 
35:01 how does it happen that one
can be completely harmonious?
  
35:13 Not an idea of harmony
which is in the future,
  
35:20 but harmonious now?
 
35:30 Because from there I can create
- you follow? -
  
35:32 I can write.
Everything will come right.
  
35:37 Q:We have to quiet this giant muscle
which is the intellect
  
35:39 that you are talking about.
Q:That's what I'm saying.
  
35:41 I am saying we are developing
all of the time - we have to stop...
  
35:44 K:No, no, no, no.
 
35:48 No, 'we have to stop'
means resistance.
  
35:51 Q:Which way to stop?
 
35:55 K:We have to dominate it,
we have to put it down
  
35:58 - all that is again, we are off.
 
36:04 Q:I see one can't do that
because that's building it up too.
  
36:07 K:No, no, no.
That's not my question anymore.
  
36:11 My question is now:
how can this harmony take place?
  
36:20 Knowing the other thing
is overdeveloped.
  
36:36 Which means a life
in which there is no conflict at all.
  
36:54 Conflict is violence,
you know, all the rest of it
  
36:57 - so how does this happen?
 
37:21 Has it anything to do
with awareness?
  
37:37 Q:Sir, it has to do
with that we are not being aware.
  
37:46 K:No, no, I'm asking, sir,
I'm asking:
  
37:52 disharmony,
because we live in disharmony,
  
38:00 to come upon this harmony,
 
38:02 I'm asking myself
if awareness is the key to it.
  
38:07 Q:Awareness of the disharmony?
 
38:11 K:No, no, no, forget, forget
- you see,
  
38:14 you're all translating immediately
into something else.
  
38:20 Awareness of disharmony in order
to be harmonious. I don't mean that.
  
38:28 I'm asking if awareness is the key
 
38:33 that brings about,
naturally, harmony.
  
38:39 Q:Sir, is awareness
an intellectual process?
  
38:44 Q:Awareness of what, sir?
 
38:46 Because the businessman
who is generally sharp and cunning
  
38:49 is in his way tremendously aware.
K:No, sir.
  
38:51 Q:He's aware of the
slightest advantage.
  
38:54 Q:Isn't she right?
 
38:56 Q:Awareness of what?
K:I want to find...
  
38:58 I'm going to...
We are going to...
  
38:59 I'm asking you first a question, sir,
 
39:01 whether awareness is the key to this.
 
39:05 I don't know what awareness is yet
 
39:07 - we are going to find out,
we're going to explore it.
  
39:13 So far one has explored the reason
of disorder and disharmony
  
39:21 - the supremacy of one or the other,
 
39:26 this supremacy of the soma,
the body,
  
39:33 or the supremacy of the intellect
- emotion or the intellect,
  
39:38 or the appetite
against the intellect,
  
39:40 and so on, so on, so on
- the battle.
  
39:44 And I say to myself: has awareness
 
39:51 - you get it? -
 
39:52 is the awareness
that will bring harmony,
  
39:56 that will make everything equal.
 
40:00 Q:A function which contains
all that and is beyond it.
  
40:03 K:Yes. I just want
to inquire into it.
  
40:11 Q:My question was related to that:
 
40:14 if an awareness of that nature,
of that type,
  
40:18 you say is not
an intellectual process,
  
40:20 then what is being aware?
 
40:24 K:We're going to find out, sir,
we're going to find out.
  
40:27 We're going to find out
what it means to be aware.
  
40:34 Because if the intellect says,
'I will calm down,'
  
40:40 [laughs]
it's a hypocritical thing,
  
40:45 and I will just hold myself in,
ready to burst at any moment.
  
40:51 Q:Also that's a calculation.
 
40:53 K:You follow?
And if the body says,
  
40:56 'All right then, I have a chance now'
 
41:00 - [laughter]
- you follow? -
  
41:03 'Now I can let off the emotions.'
 
41:06 So can we...
 
41:12 what does awareness mean?
 
41:16 Why is awareness important in this?
You follow, sir?
  
41:22 Here I have a problem.
I have a problem.
  
41:25 I live in disharmony, in disorder.
 
41:34 Either the body becomes
extraordinarily demanding,
  
41:38 vital - you follow? -
 
41:41 with its lust, with its
appetites, with its...
  
41:45 or the intellect, or the emotions,
 
41:51 sentimentality of
- you know.
  
41:56 And I see that and I say,
 
41:58 'Now, what is the element
 
42:02 that will bring all this
into perfect rhythm?'
  
42:17 So that the body's perfect,
you know, healthy,
  
42:20 so the emotions are really...
 
42:22 they are real emotions,
not invented by the intellect,
  
42:26 and reason, sane, healthy.
 
42:34 I mean, whole implies - I don't know
if you've looked at that word -
  
42:38 'whole' means whole,
 
42:42 in which is implied health, sanity,
 
42:47 and also 'whole' implies
h- o-l-y - holy -
  
42:52 all that is in that word.
 
42:56 Which means the whole thing
is whole, sane.
  
43:04 Now, what is the thing
that will bring this about?
  
43:11 Not effort, because effort
means... intellect says,
  
43:16 'By Jove, I see
that's the way to live,
  
43:21 and I'm going after it.
 
43:23 I'm going to train the body,
I'm going to train...'
  
43:25 - you follow? It's gone.
 
43:30 Q:If you say that is the way
to live so I'm going after it,
  
43:33 you haven't really seen it.
K:Of course not, of course not.
  
43:41 So what is the thing
that will make it whole,
  
43:47 in which there must be not
the slightest whisper of effort,
  
44:01 not the slightest directive?
Right, sir?
  
44:08 Because the moment
the intellect takes charge...
  
44:17 So the mind must be
free of the directive,
  
44:24 sense of effort.
 
44:31 Now, how does this happen?
 
45:04 Shall I go on, sir?
 
45:17 Must the thing come from the outside
 
45:21 or must it begin from the inside out?
 
45:25 I don't know if I'm using
non-technological words, but...
  
45:39 So let's tackle it.
What does awareness mean?
  
45:43 Because I think that is the key.
 
45:46 I think - I may change it
- you follow, sir? -
  
45:48 because we are exploring together,
 
45:50 therefore you may find
something different.
  
45:53 We are together in this.
 
45:58 What does it mean?
 
46:01 I see this.
I see through observation,
  
46:05 therefore through experiment,
 
46:11 testing, observing
the fact, the event,
  
46:17 and learning about it,
and not make from that...
  
46:21 not acquiring knowledge
but merely learning.
  
46:25 Because knowledge,
when it becomes knowledge,
  
46:27 it becomes the intellect and
then it will say it will guide it.
  
46:30 I don't know if you...
Can we go on from there?
  
46:35 Q:Could you repeat that again?
 
46:44 K:What did I say?
Q:Because when you act from knowledge
  
46:48 then it is again the intellect
which is guiding.
  
46:51 But learning is not
to act from knowledge,
  
46:53 it is a state of being
in which knowledge is not acting.
  
47:02 K:I see, one observes, the fact.
 
47:08 The fact: the intellect dominates,
 
47:12 the other two play second fiddle.
 
47:17 Now, harmony means
functioning together
  
47:25 as a whole, not as fragments.
 
47:32 Now, the mind sees this,
sees how it is broken up.
  
47:40 Right? How does it see it?
 
47:49 Is the seeing a word?
 
47:54 Q:Or accumulated knowledge.
 
47:56 K:No, a word.
 
47:59 That is, I must see this thing.
 
48:08 Or do I, by the very fact
of this dialogue, it is exposed
  
48:16 and I see it as I see it in a map
 
48:20 - the three operating
in contradiction with each other,
  
48:24 one dominating, and so on.
Now, how do I see it?
  
48:37 Q:Is awareness maybe spontaneity?
 
48:41 K:Not... dangerous word, sir,
if I may say so,
  
48:44 because to be spontaneous
implies freedom.
  
48:52 And a mind that is... intellect
that is dominating, is not free.
  
49:04 How do I see this?
How does the mind see this thing?
  
49:10 See this fragmentation?
 
49:12 One fragment supremely important,
the rest are minor?
  
49:17 I mean, when we use 'see,'
how do you see it, sir?
  
49:27 You see these three fragments
- one a little taller than the rest.
  
49:34 And when you say, 'I understand
that,' what do you mean by that?
  
49:41 Is it a verbal understanding,
 
49:49 or is it an observation
of what actually is,
  
49:57 without any distortion
 
50:01 - saying this must not be,
this should be?
  
50:05 I don't know if...
How do you look at it?
  
50:10 Q:Does the seeing allow
for a certain verbal action too?
  
50:16 Do we ruin it the moment
we ascribe any word to it?
  
50:20 K:No, I may use words afterwards.
Q:Afterwards.
  
50:23 K:Yes.
Q:The seeing is before the word.
  
50:27 K:The word - that's right.
Before the word, obviously,
  
50:29 otherwise the seeing is the word.
 
50:31 Q:Don't we perhaps immediately...
 
50:34 K:Yes, that's what
I was warning, too.
  
50:37 Is it a verbal seeing
or actual seeing?
  
50:44 Q:How can you see it if your mind
is always condemning?
  
50:47 Your censor is interfering,
and you can't see it.
  
50:51 K:Yes, doctor, but look, sir,
this is a fact, isn't it?
  
50:56 Q:Yes.
K:The fact that one is these three.
  
50:59 Q:Yes, that's right.
K:That's a fact.
  
51:01 Now, how do you look at that fact?
 
51:06 Q:I'm saying
you can't look at it without...
  
51:08 K:No, no, no, I'm not interested
in your condemnation,
  
51:10 judgment, evaluation
- then you don't see.
  
51:16 So put aside all that and look.
 
51:21 Then how do you see it?
 
51:32 If you put that out
 
51:34 - if you put... justification,
condemnation, all the rest of it,
  
51:41 aren't you looking harmoniously?
 
51:43 Q:[Inaudible]
 
51:44 K:No, sir, no, sir, no, sir,
do go slow.
  
51:57 Are you looking
through the intellect,
  
52:01 which justifies, condemns,
says this is right,
  
52:04 society has produced this,
etc., etc.
  
52:08 - which is all the act
of the intellect -
  
52:12 and when you put aside justification,
condemnation and all that,
  
52:16 how do you look at it?
 
52:24 Q:You look attentively at the whole.
K:Do you?
  
52:28 Don't theorize about it,
then we play tricks.
  
52:42 Can you look at this table, sir,
 
52:45 without being caught
in the description?
  
52:59 Because the description
is not the table.
  
53:04 Right? Can you look at it
without the word?
  
53:10 Saying it's a marble, I like it,
I don't like it, strange painting
  
53:13 - you know, all the rest of it,
go through it -
  
53:17 how ugly, how beautiful, etc., etc.
 
53:20 - just to observe.
 
53:25 Q:And even observe
without looking at a table.
  
53:28 K:Ah, no, no - how can I observe
without looking at...
  
53:32 Q:It's a great idea.
 
53:34 K:Then you are looking
at the idea of a table.
  
53:43 Can you look that way?
 
53:49 And when you do look that way,
don't you see the whole of it,
  
53:54 not just what you think it should be.
 
54:05 So can the mind look
at the three fragments
  
54:14 without the word,
 
54:19 and therefore justification,
or adjustment, and so on,
  
54:24 without all that,
can the mind look at this fact?
  
54:31 T:Five minutes left.
 
54:36 K:He wants five minute's rest.
 
54:40 T:There are five minutes left.
 
54:41 K:I see.
 
54:51 Q:It has to become quiet.
 
54:59 K:Does it, sir - quiet?
What does that mean?
  
55:03 Q:I can't see this table -
thoughts keep coming in to block it.
  
55:10 K:No, sir.
 
55:13 Look, sir, do look at it, it's
very interesting, do look at it.
  
55:17 If you really want to look
at that table, is there any thought?
  
55:28 When you are inattentive,
all the things happen.
  
55:39 Therefore awareness and attention
is the factor of harmony.
  
55:49 I don't know if you are...
 
55:54 If I don't look...
if the mind doesn't look...
  
55:59 if the mind looks
with any distortion,
  
56:03 which is of effort,
judgment, etc., etc.,
  
56:07 then the observation is distorted,
 
56:12 disharmony, not harmonious.
 
56:15 Now, to look at it with harmony
 
56:19 is to look at these fragments
 
56:25 without any distortion, prejudice,
 
56:28 want, must not, all the rest of it.
 
56:35 And doesn't that
itself create silence?
  
56:45 Not the mind must become silent
but that itself...
  
56:49 Q:The looking.
 
56:53 K:If I want to look at that tree,
 
56:55 or that sunset, or these
lovely hills, I look.
  
57:01 And that very look
wipes away everything else.
  
57:05 Q:Are you saying we're not
interested in looking?
  
57:08 K:No, no. No.
 
57:11 Then you will say, 'How am I
to have the interest?' [Laughs]
  
57:16 We are caught in a trap then.
 
57:21 But to see the fact
that we live in disharmony,
  
57:28 to see how this disharmony,
this disorder has come into being
  
57:33 - of intellect, and so on, so on -
just to see it.
  
57:42 And the very seeing of it
has its own silence.
  
57:55 Because without...
 
57:56 if there is a noise
I can't look at those mountains.
  
58:02 The very looking at those mountains
 
58:08 is bringing about its own silence.
 
58:24 So how do you look?
 
58:26 Through the intellect?
 
58:34 Do you look at that tree,
those hills,
  
58:37 or do you look at these fragments,
the intellect, and so on
  
58:43 - how do you look at all this?
With chattering?
  
59:11 Can we look at this question
in another way?
  
59:22 You know, control
 
59:30 has apparently become
extraordinarily important,
  
59:33 because they say you must have...
 
59:38 the body must be
completely controlled,
  
59:44 your mind must be completely held
 
59:49 so that it doesn't wander off.
 
59:54 And your emotions and everything
must be trained.
  
1:00:01 So, meditation implies to make
the body sit completely quiet.
  
1:00:11 That's the beginning of it.
 
1:00:14 And to make that body
completely quiet,
  
1:00:18 train it by being aware
of every movement of the body.
  
1:00:26 Right? I don't know if you
have ever gone into all this.
  
1:00:32 Watch your body move,
or make the body move
  
1:00:36 - the toe, the ankle, the knee,
and so on -
  
1:00:40 gradually watch it, watch it.
 
1:00:43 You follow, sir?
 
1:00:46 So out of this watching, the body
becomes extraordinarily healthy.
  
1:00:52 I don't know if...
 
1:00:56 Have you ever played
with this kind of stuff?
  
1:01:03 So, then in the same way, watch
your emotions, watch your thoughts,
  
1:01:09 watch so that it doesn't move away
 
1:01:14 from the direction it has been set.
 
1:01:20 Which is, 'I must think of God.'
 
1:01:23 I'm using the word 'God,'
or an ideal,
  
1:01:26 or some phrase, or something,
or other
  
1:01:28 - Jesus, the Buddha, what it is.
 
1:01:31 So that there is...
your mind is held in that line,
  
1:01:38 in that groove.
 
1:01:41 So control has been imposed on this,
 
1:01:47 and we have accepted this
 
1:01:50 as the way of leading
a very straight, orderly life.
  
1:02:01 That is very disorder...
that itself is disorder.
  
1:02:11 I don't know if you see this,
because that means,
  
1:02:13 you know, the whole thing
is resistance.
  
1:02:18 Q:One idea is dominating...
K:I mean the whole...
  
1:02:27 We are saying don't do that,
that's all wrong, but be aware.
  
1:02:37 Be aware without distortion,
without choice,
  
1:02:44 without giving a direction.
 
1:02:50 And that very awareness
will make the body quiet.
  
1:02:54 You follow?
 
1:03:00 Not the other way.
 
1:03:05 I don't know if you...
 
1:03:07 Q:Will you discuss anger
from the same point of view?
  
1:03:09 I'd like to hear you
talk about anger.
  
1:03:11 K:Anger.
Q:Anger,
  
1:03:14 from this point of view
of an awareness. You get angry.
  
1:03:19 K:No, I don't think
you'll ever be angry.
  
1:03:25 And therefore there's
no need for suppression.
  
1:03:28 You're ahead of anger.
I don't know...
  
1:03:32 Sorry to put it that way.
 
1:03:33 Q:The reason I mention this is because
psychologists and psychiatrists...
  
1:03:37 K:You see it coming, you can feel it,
 
1:03:40 and you know how to deal with it.
 
1:03:46 We know how to deal with it
after it happens.
  
1:03:50 Awareness is to see it
arise and deal with...
  
1:03:54 and soften it down as it happens.
 
1:04:06 Q:You are saying that we will
really know how to deal with it.
  
1:04:14 Now it's a matter of our doing it.
It really will happen...
  
1:04:19 K:Sir, do it now,
you will see it for yourself
  
1:04:24 what extraordinary thing this is.
 
1:04:29 Not because I say.
What I say has no importance, but...
  
1:04:32 Q:[Inaudible]
...the total organism...
  
1:04:38 K:Yes, sir, obviously.
 
1:04:40 A man who is extraordinarily
energetic is not angry.
  
1:04:54 A man who has got this sense
of complete harmony,
  
1:04:57 you know, complete security,
then what in...
  
1:05:01 I mean - sorry!
[Laughs]
  
1:05:08 Q:Is it true that... does love always
flow out of this full awareness?
  
1:05:13 K:Ah, no, no.
Sir... [laughs]
  
1:05:21 Do you think a flower that is full
of perfume saying, 'This is love'?
  
1:05:31 Q:I don't mean the idea of love.
 
1:05:33 K:I'm saying a flower
- there it is.
  
1:05:36 It's got so much perfume,
lovely, so tender...
  
1:05:53 Intellect says
love must be personal,
  
1:05:56 impersonal, godly, noble, fine,
this, that - you know? -
  
1:06:02 make a nice mess of it.
 
1:06:13 I mean, this whole Catholic world
is now in revolution
  
1:06:16 because it has accepted
 
1:06:19 that in the service of God
you must be a celibate.
  
1:06:25 Q:Or pretend to be, or seem to be.
 
1:06:29 K:Celibate - don't actually
sleep with a woman
  
1:06:32 but bottle it inside yourself
but don't do it outwardly.
  
1:06:38 And also it's the same in India,
the same in Asia.
  
1:06:43 They boil, burn,
destroy themselves inwardly,
  
1:06:46 but outwardly Jesus, and Buddha,
and, you know, all the rest of it.
  
1:06:58 So we are saying,
seeing all this phenomenon,
  
1:07:06 the harmonious life
is only possible
  
1:07:16 in the observation
of the fact, the event,
  
1:07:22 and looking at it
- and nothing else.
  
1:07:30 How you look matters,
 
1:07:33 not what you look at.
I don't know...
  
1:07:43 If there is a distance between
the observer and the observed
  
1:07:49 then it's finished.
 
1:07:54 Q:If there is an observer.
K:If there is an observer.
  
1:08:02 The flower with perfume doesn't say,
 
1:08:05 'This is love, this is beauty,
 
1:08:07 I am full of this,
I am full of that' - it is that.
  
1:08:23 Q:Sir, the very situation,
 
1:08:25 the distance between
the observer and the observed.
  
1:08:28 Is there another way
of putting that phrase 'distance,'
  
1:08:34 is there another way
of looking at that?
  
1:08:38 K:Another way of looking at it, sir,
 
1:08:40 is to look at it
without the observer,
  
1:08:46 to look at it so that there is
only this thing that's observed,
  
1:08:53 not the interpretation
of what is observed.
  
1:09:00 And when you do look
at the fragments
  
1:09:04 - intellect and all the rest of it -
 
1:09:07 as the non-observer,
are there fragments?
  
1:09:15 I don't know if you...
You follow, sir?
  
1:09:22 The observer is a fragment.
 
1:09:28 The observer observes the fragments,
 
1:09:32 the three fragments.
 
1:09:35 And so he becomes
the separate entity,
  
1:09:39 an outsider who is looking in.
 
1:09:43 But the observer is
the thing that he observes.
  
1:09:50 He may put himself outside
but he's part of those three.
  
1:09:55 So the observer is the observed,
 
1:09:58 and therefore no distance.
 
1:10:01 And can the mind look that way
without identifying,
  
1:10:07 saying, 'I am the whole, I am this.'
 
1:10:20 Sir, look, another extraordinary
thing takes place when you look...
  
1:10:25 I mean, to look, as we generally do,
as the observer and the observed,
  
1:10:33 that has created its own discipline,
 
1:10:42 its own disorder.
 
1:10:46 But to look without the observer
requires a discipline
  
1:10:53 in the sense of tremendous
learning to look.
  
1:11:01 Right?
 
1:11:02 Q:Learning in looking.
K:Learning in looking.
  
1:11:05 Q:Not in... [inaudible]
K:No.
  
1:11:08 Q:But doesn't that take time?
K:No, sir.
  
1:11:10 Q:The two are the same.
K:No, sir, it doesn't take time.
  
1:11:14 Look, sir, look at those mountains
without the observer
  
1:11:21 - just look, sir,
and see what takes place.
  
1:11:29 I wish you were sitting here
instead of me; you would see it.
  
1:11:52 You see, that's really quite...
 
1:11:54 To look without the image
- you follow, sir? -
  
1:11:57 that's what it means
- to look at my wife, husband,
  
1:12:02 the hills, the trees, the birds,
 
1:12:04 the whole movement of this beauty
without the image.
  
1:12:19 Because the image is the observer.
 
1:12:22 The image is the intellect.
 
1:12:25 You see, sir, how tied it is?
 
1:12:31 How tied together it all is.
 
1:12:41 So one has to take the whole of it
or not at all. [Laughs]
  
1:12:51 You can't say,
'Well, I like a fragment of it,
  
1:12:54 I am going to use it.'
 
1:12:56 Then you are going to destroy
the whole thing.
  
1:13:03 Q:Could you say a few
more words about that,
  
1:13:07 this sustained seriousness -
 
1:13:09 For a while we can sustain it.
 
1:13:12 You brought up
the question yourself,
  
1:13:14 because I haven't heard
you say anything about it:
  
1:13:16 sustained seriousness.
 
1:13:19 K:Sustained... We have done this.
A whole hour we have spent at it!
  
1:13:22 Q:[Inaudible]
 
1:13:24 K:Ah! If you spent
a whole hour and a half at this,
  
1:13:28 you will do it the rest
of the time, naturally.
  
1:13:34 Including going to the cinema.
[Laughs]
  
1:13:45 Q:This doesn't leave out playfulness,
does it? [Laughter]
  
1:13:50 Q:I hope not.
 
1:13:54 K:It all depends on what you mean
by playfulness. [Laughter]
  
1:13:59 Q:[Inaudible]
 
1:14:04 K:Sir, that means enjoyment
is something entirely different
  
1:14:08 - joy is entirely different
from pleasure.
  
1:14:11 Q:Yes.
K:Ah, no!
  
1:14:16 Q:I think there is
some kind of a connotation
  
1:14:20 to the word 'seriousness' that...
 
1:14:22 K:Of course, of course.
Q:To the word.
  
1:14:28 K:What time is it, sir?
Q:Half past twelve, sir.
  
1:14:31 K:Oh, I think we'd better stop,
don't you?