Krishnamurti_EN

Krishnamurti Subtitles

Being serious without belief

Malibu - 15 March 1970

Discussion with Small Group 4

0:09	K:Shall we go on
	where we left off yesterday?

0:14	Shall we go on
	where we left yesterday?

0:21	I was wondering

0:25	how to sustain
	a continuous seriousness.

0:46	I think if we could go into that
	a little bit and come back

0:50	to what we were talking about.

0:57	Is it the intellect
	is not serious at all?

1:19	A fragment of our life,
	which is already fragmented,

1:30	seems to take supremacy
	over other fragments.

1:36	The one fragment is
	this intellectual struggle,

1:45	intellectual assertions,

1:47	theories, formulas, what should
	happen, what should not happen

1:51	- you know,
	the whole intellectual drama.

2:00	And is the intellect really serious?

2:08	Serious in the sense,

2:15	a sustained total comprehension,

2:24	which has nothing to do
	with formula,

2:28	with theory, and belief.

2:33	Can the intellect, a fragment,
	be ever serious?

2:46	Serious in the sense,
	a continuous drive,

2:52	a continuous, sustained observation
	without any distortion.

3:04	And most of us are
	intellectually trained

3:12	in a society that demands
	the intellectual output

3:17	rather than a total output
	of the human being.

3:21	I don't know
	if I'm conveying anything.

3:28	Could we go into that a little bit?

3:35	Why has this happened?

3:44	Why has a part of me...

3:48	has become so supreme

3:53	- dictating how the body
	should behave,

3:58	what it should eat,
	drink, smoke, sex

4:03	- dictating everything,

4:06	and dictating the morality,

4:12	the virtue,

4:14	the social behaviour,

4:17	and the private behaviour
	at home, and so on

4:24	- apparently, technologically
	and psychologically,

4:29	it has become supreme.
	Why?

4:39	Why has one part of this whole
	structure which is the 'me,'

4:45	why has that become important?

5:09	Q:It seems to me
	that part of the reason is

5:11	that we don't know
	how to use it properly.

5:14	We don't understand
	what it's good for, how it works.

5:23	Q:In the society a specialty
	wasn't it necessary

5:26	to have the intellectual development,

5:29	so the technical development,
	so we produce the goods.

5:32	Now that we have the goods
	we don't need it;

5:34	what we are doing is something
	that isn't necessary.

5:36	K:Are you saying, sir,
	that technological development,

5:41	which is the intellectual activity,

5:44	has dominated
	the whole existence of man?

5:49	Q:It was necessary because
	there wasn't enough to go around.

5:52	K:Is that the reason?
	Q:But we thought that.

5:56	K:Is that so?
	Q:No.

5:59	Q:Like that's part of controlling,
	it's part of...

6:03	our whole culture wants to control
	nature using the intellect for that

6:08	and each of us tries to control
	ourself using the intellect for that.

6:17	K:Sir, watch in yourself
	- if I may come back to oneself -

6:24	why has the intellect taken
	such extraordinary importance

6:29	in your life, in one's life?

6:33	Leave society, culture,
	all that, out

6:38	- why has it taken in one's life
	such vital import?

6:46	Q:Isn't it that same
	demand for security

6:48	we were talking about yesterday?

6:51	Q:Sir, we think our ideas are
	something that don't change.

6:58	K:Look into yourself, sir,
	look into yourself.

7:04	Why have you given such...

7:07	why has it taken such importance
	in my life, in your life?

7:14	It hasn't in me, but I'm just asking:
	why has it?

7:21	Q:Our training was that.

7:25	K:If it wasn't trained, wouldn't
	you do exactly the same thing?

7:30	Q:I'm not living in the country,
	I think I might...

7:32	K:Ah, wait, sir, wait, sir,
	don't be so clear about it.

7:36	I'm not at all sure you wouldn't.

7:38	Q:Living on a farm,
	milking the cows...

7:42	K:No, no. Even then
	there would be always,

7:46	'My cow is better
	than the other cow.'

8:01	Q:That's comparison then.

8:05	K:Comparison - why?

8:10	Push it, sir, push it down
	and find out why.

8:15	Why do you do this?

8:25	You understand, sir,
	what is implied in this?

8:29	The whole hierarchical
	outlook of life, on life

8:35	- the better, the higher,
	the nobler,

8:44	the limitation of the verb 'to be' -

8:49	in that which we are caught.

8:53	If you go into it you will see

8:55	why we have given this thing
	such a diabolic importance.

9:04	Q:Because I can see one reason,

9:07	it's because the past and
	the future are so important.

9:13	We've made the past and
	the future very important

9:17	- what will happen
	and what did happen.

9:20	That's why we compare.

9:23	It doesn't matter right now
	if you have a better cow,

9:25	because what
	the whole image presents,

9:27	what happened in the past and
	what's going to happen in the future.

9:33	Q:Sir, in order to see
	what you mean

9:35	when you say
	that we live in the intellect,

9:38	could you perhaps say
	what else there is to live in?

9:41	K:Ah, no...

9:42	Q:Because if you say
	if we live in the intellect,

9:44	I think that it may not be clear
	for us just what that means.

9:51	K:That means, sir
	- it's fairly simple -

9:54	the future, the ideal,
	the formula, the belief

10:02	- the whole structure
	of what should be -

10:07	the utopia, the ideal,
	the perfect state, the perfect God,

10:12	the perfect disciple, the perfect
	master, the perfect - you follow?

10:17	Q:The controller
	you were talking about.

10:18	K:Yes.

10:20	Q:Which means
	we're living for something.

10:25	K:Don't... See what is happening,
	sir, and from that you'll find out.

10:34	Q:Your question of why
	- I've seen a lot of children.

10:39	I've seen, experience
	with a lot of children

10:43	and children almost always
	compare themselves with others

10:47	- they say, 'My muscles
	are bigger than yours,

10:49	my father is stronger than yours.'

10:50	It seems to me it's a part of...

10:54	that everybody grows up
	with that universally.

10:57	And we have to then,
	through understanding, work it out.

11:00	[Inaudible]

11:03	K:Dr Weininger, you live
	- if I may be a little bit...

11:06	not being personal, but...

11:09	- you live in the intellect,
	don't you?

11:11	Q:Yes.
	K:Why?

11:13	Q:In what way?
	K:Ideation.

11:17	Q:Not so much.
	K:No, no, no! Not so...

11:20	not at all or... [laughs] you can't
	have a little and not so much.

11:23	But let us see.

11:27	Q:Yes.

11:29	K:You do live in...
	we do live in the... Why?

11:42	Q:Because there's seeming security.

11:49	Q:But why?
	We really don't know why.

11:52	K:Don't you?
	Q:I don't think so.

11:54	K:We'll find out. We'll find out.

12:02	Q:It seems like a lot of it
	is to be in touch

12:06	with other people, to communicate.

12:08	K:But we're not at all
	in touch with other people.

12:11	Q:It has the opposite effect.

12:12	K:Quite the opposite effect
	- it is an isolating process.

12:20	I've isolated myself

12:22	- my image, my formula,
	my God, my this,

12:26	and over that I look at somebody
	else, but still there is the wall.

12:34	Q:When we answer why, it seems
	every time we say something

12:36	we're guessing in a way.

12:37	We're seeing if what we say
	actually meets with our experience.

12:43	It doesn't seem like
	we're getting anywhere.

12:44	K:Yes, sir, watch it, sir.
	Look, go a little bit, sir.

12:50	You're too verbal,
	if I may say so - go slow.

12:59	That means we are living
	in the future, aren't we?

13:06	The ideal, the formula,
	what should be, the better,

13:14	is always over there.
	Right?

13:18	Why do I live that way?

13:27	Q:[Inaudible]

13:37	K:I live in the past and
	in the future - right? -

13:42	I live in my memories,

13:49	in my imagination,
	in my hopes, fears

13:55	- they are always the past, despair,

13:58	except hope in the future.

14:02	So living in the past,

14:06	mustn't it inevitably create
	a future of idealistic hope?

14:26	I don't live now
	but the past and the future.

14:35	I don't know
	what it means to live now.

14:40	I really don't know.

14:43	So there is the past and the future.

14:50	Would that be right, sirs?

14:55	Past and the future.

15:03	And - go on -
	why do I live in the past?

15:07	I know nothing else but the past.

15:13	What I want to know
	about the future is the hope,

15:21	which is its own hell.

15:27	Right? So that's all.
	Why do I live this way?

15:33	Q:Yesterday we talked about the fact

15:36	that there was uncertainty
	in the present and that...

15:43	K:Ah, ah, I didn't say
	uncertainty in the present.

15:46	I want to be certain in the present.

15:51	Q:Secure.
	K:Secure.

15:52	Q:Secure. Again, that security.

15:55	And there seems to be
	security in the past

15:59	because it's something that's known.

16:03	So we cling to that.

16:04	K:We cling to that and yet
	I'm living in the future.

16:08	Q:Projecting.

16:10	Q:Living for the future
	might be better...

16:12	K:All right, living for the future
	- what should be.

16:27	The function
	of the intellect apparently

16:28	is to live in the past,
	as it has acquired knowledge,

16:33	add to the past through the present,

16:38	and that's living, that's
	intellectually operating, functioning

16:44	- scientifically, technologically,
	every way.

16:53	And the dissatisfaction of the past
	is the hope of the future.

17:02	Because the mind can't be completely
	satisfied living in the past.

17:30	Right? Then what?

17:34	Q:Is it because
	of the element of time?

17:39	K:That is time. After all,
	living in the past is time,

17:43	and the future is time.

17:48	We're asking, sir, aren't we,

17:50	why has the intellect become
	so extraordinarily important?

17:58	Q:That includes the emotions,
	when you say the intellect?

18:01	K:No. It controls the emotions.

18:04	It says, 'That's good to have
	good emotions' - you follow?

18:08	Q:A thought, a prejudice
	is an emotion, a feeling.

18:13	It's a strong thought.

18:14	K:Strong thought. I don't...

18:18	Q:So the intellect is not
	distinct from the emotions.

18:20	K:I don't like him.
	Q:Yes, that's also emotion.

18:24	K:No, wait, sir, look. Is it?

18:26	Q:Because he did something,
	because he is a threat...

18:29	K:I don't like him
	because he has this.

18:34	It's a conclusion
	made by the intellect,

18:40	a thought,

18:41	and the thought doesn't
	like that, and so on.

18:45	So, let's... we'll come
	to the feeling presently.

18:50	Q:Because when you say intellect,

18:51	people tend to think perhaps

18:53	you're talking about abstract
	thinking and cerebral activity.

18:58	K:No, no, no, sir. No, no.

18:59	Q:The intellect
	which acts in our life,

19:01	acts in our lives as strong feeling,
	and strong prejudice, and drive.

19:07	And that's emotion. But if I
	just think, it has no meaning,

19:11	but when I think with feeling then
	it does mischief, then it divides,

19:15	then it projects into the future.

19:18	K:That is so. Then what?

19:20	Q:Sir, when you say intellect,

19:24	are you saying intellect
	as distinct from emotion

19:26	or are you saying the intellect

19:28	which includes emotion
	and emotional response?

19:30	K:Yes. Let's include emotion
	for the moment. Let's be clear.

19:33	We include emotion into it

19:35	- prejudice, like, dislike.

19:39	Now, wait a minute.
	Q:Yes, part of the same thing.

19:43	K:Why is this happening
	all the time in me, in us?

20:03	Q:Sir, as the mind biologically

20:10	must have security,
	as you mentioned,

20:16	is it possible that
	in a similar fashion

20:21	the organism is striving
	for perfection,

20:29	psychically, reaching...
	[inaudible]

20:43	K:But that perfection
	is always in the future,

20:48	striving always to achieve the goal

20:55	which it has invented.

21:00	Q:If we say he we're striving
	for security...

21:03	Q:And how about pleasure? It seems
	to be related to pleasure then.

21:08	Q:[Inaudible]

21:20	K:Is one aware that the intellect,

21:22	in which is included
	all this business,

21:27	that it predominates our life?

21:30	Q:Yes.
	K:Then why?

21:36	Q:Is it not a search
	for significance?

21:44	K:Significance to life
	- to life that has no meaning.

21:53	A life of striving
	- you know, all the rest of it -

21:56	and therefore in that
	there is no meaning,

22:00	therefore intellect strives to give
	a significance or a meaning to it,

22:09	to live differently.

22:11	This is a dull stuff, life is,
	and I'll invent a meaning to it

22:16	which will make it interesting.
	That's all.

22:19	Q:And I strive some more.

22:23	Q:Sir, I think... [inaudible]

22:31	You mentioned how the mind
	must have security... [inaudible]

22:37	K:Not 'I mentioned,' sir, it is.
	I mean...

22:40	Q:It is. But you stated it.

22:47	I mean, we know that
	the body will compensate

22:55	if you lose one kidney the other
	one will grow to twice the size.

23:02	This is compensation.

23:05	Is it possible that there is this

23:08	psychic built-in aim
	for compensation in that sense,

23:14	but we find
	the wrong ways to do it,

23:17	as we do with the mind
	seeking security?

23:39	K:Sir, seeking security
	and being secure

23:42	are two different things,
	aren't they?

23:43	Q:Yes. We...

23:45	K:Ah, no, no, no
	- we are seeking security,

23:50	and we said seeking security does,

23:54	you know, create this mischief.
	Q:That gives me insecurity.

23:57	Seeking security is the insecurity.
	K:Is insecurity.

24:00	Whereas to be completely secure,
	it's finished.

24:03	It's not that I am seeking security

24:06	and therefore finding it
	and clinging to it.

24:12	Q:The mind must have it,
	as was mentioned, must have it.

24:17	And there is something comparable

24:23	psychically, because...
	[inaudible]

24:38	...at this point
	there isn't a counterpart

24:44	to this perfection aspect

24:51	as there is for the security aspect,

24:55	but we take the wrong path...

24:57	K:I understand that, sir.
	Yes, I understand.

25:05	Q:The biologists say that thought
	developed in evolution, based on fear.

25:11	Fear was the basis for evolutionary
	development of thought.

25:19	Q:Fear is itself a thought.

25:28	Q:So you are asking, sir,
	why one lives in the intellect

25:32	and why there is this
	perpetual struggle.

25:36	K:You haven't answered me.
	[Laughs]

25:38	Q:But isn't that question itself, does
	it pose a creation of the intellect?

25:45	K:Yes. But I'm saying

25:48	- and that's only to verbalize
	a fact that we do live in it -

25:54	but the thing one has to find out,

25:58	why has this become
	so colossally important?

26:04	Q:But what it seems like
	we're doing, what I'm doing,

26:07	is that I'm looking at that question
	with the intellect,

26:10	and as long as we look at it
	with the intellect

26:12	then we're trying to verbalize
	and trying to do all this.

26:15	It's the wrong way all the time.

26:22	We're giving evaluations
	and analysis of it,

26:27	of the question, and our experience,
	but we're still caught in it.

26:33	No matter what we're doing here,
	we're still caught in it.

26:42	K:Then, sir, let's look at it round
	the other way: What is living?

26:54	There's the body, the whole organism
	with all its complex demands,

27:00	the glands, all that

27:05	- both biological and psychological,

27:08	the imposition of
	the psyche on the body

27:11	wishing it should be this,
	it should act this way

27:16	- and all the emotional nature,

27:23	in which is included
	pleasure, enjoyment,

27:29	the delight of looking at...
	and so on, so on

27:32	- there's love,
	and there's the intellect -

27:38	intellect which reasons,
	looks, observes,

27:40	says this is right, this is wrong,

27:42	evaluates and says, 'I should have
	done this' - all that.

27:48	Why doesn't all the three

27:52	- the organism, love, mind -
	all work together?

27:58	Why this one?

28:03	Why doesn't the whole thing
	work harmoniously, you know,

28:06	like a good machine
	that's ticking over?

28:26	It cannot be harmonious

28:29	as long as one is large or enormous,

28:32	or one is important
	than the others.

28:40	I wonder if the intellect
	has assumed supremacy

28:45	because it has conceived security

28:52	in terms of the past or the future.

28:59	And therefore no security
	in the present at all.

29:03	You follow?

29:12	It says I've had food today,
	I must have food this evening.

29:17	So it struggles to have food
	this evening, and tomorrow.

29:22	I must have my pleasure, my sex
	- all tomorrow.

29:41	Go on, sirs, let's work it out.

29:48	Or is living in the past,

29:55	in which there's been security,

30:01	and that desire to have
	permanent security in the future

30:06	- as I want tomorrow, food -
	has built this idea,

30:12	has made the intellect
	enormously important.

30:20	Therefore it dominates love,
	it dominates the organism,

30:25	it dominates everything.

30:48	And how does it come about
	that the three

30:54	- psychosomatic and plus -
	live harmoniously, completely

31:03	- you follow?

31:06	not one against the other, battling?

31:12	How do you do this?
	How do you bring this about?

31:39	You see, we live
	- ah, I'm getting somewhere -

31:41	we live in a centre

31:45	created by the intellect
	- right? -

31:52	centre of ideas,
	self-centred movement,

31:57	which is still the intellect,

32:01	the centre which is
	self-perpetuating,

32:11	self-centred activity -
	that's the centre we live in.

32:15	And that centre
	must break up, as it does,

32:21	as we see it operating in ourselves

32:23	- that centre is breaking it up
	all the time -

32:26	I must live differently, I must
	be different - you follow? -

32:29	this should not be, this should be.

32:33	Now, how to break down that centre

32:36	and live in the whole, not in a part?

32:43	I don't know
	if I am making myself clear.

32:58	Q:Your first question
	interested me very much:

33:01	how do you sustain a seriousness

33:04	when most of us here are living
	in the present right now, with you,

33:08	and when we leave
	the environment seduces us...

33:13	[inaudible]

33:14	and the sustained seriousness
	that we have here doesn't sustain.

33:20	Q:Well, just this instance, I could see
	my interest falling the other way,

33:24	and the question drops.

33:34	K:Sir, could we put the whole
	question differently?

33:37	How does it happen
	that one can live harmoniously,

33:45	so that one or the other
	is not overdeveloped,

33:50	one or the other is not in conflict,

33:54	but function, live, act

33:57	as a whole, sane, holy thing?

34:23	Q:I see that something like
	building up your muscles, you said...

34:26	K:No, no. No. That means time.

34:32	I have no time
	- I'll be dead tomorrow.

34:34	Q:No but what I'm saying is: I see
	that... you say overdeveloped...

34:39	K:No, sir. No, no, no. Look, sir,
	we said the intellect dominates,

34:50	subjugating the affection,
	physical organ, and so on.

34:56	I want, I'm asking myself:

35:01	how does it happen that one
	can be completely harmonious?

35:13	Not an idea of harmony
	which is in the future,

35:20	but harmonious now?

35:30	Because from there I can create
	- you follow? -

35:32	I can write.
	Everything will come right.

35:37	Q:We have to quiet this giant muscle
	which is the intellect

35:39	that you are talking about.
	Q:That's what I'm saying.

35:41	I am saying we are developing
	all of the time - we have to stop...

35:44	K:No, no, no, no.

35:48	No, 'we have to stop'
	means resistance.

35:51	Q:Which way to stop?

35:55	K:We have to dominate it,
	we have to put it down

35:58	- all that is again, we are off.

36:04	Q:I see one can't do that
	because that's building it up too.

36:07	K:No, no, no.
	That's not my question anymore.

36:11	My question is now:
	how can this harmony take place?

36:20	Knowing the other thing
	is overdeveloped.

36:36	Which means a life
	in which there is no conflict at all.

36:54	Conflict is violence,
	you know, all the rest of it

36:57	- so how does this happen?

37:21	Has it anything to do
	with awareness?

37:37	Q:Sir, it has to do
	with that we are not being aware.

37:46	K:No, no, I'm asking, sir,
	I'm asking:

37:52	disharmony,
	because we live in disharmony,

38:00	to come upon this harmony,

38:02	I'm asking myself
	if awareness is the key to it.

38:07	Q:Awareness of the disharmony?

38:11	K:No, no, no, forget, forget
	- you see,

38:14	you're all translating immediately
	into something else.

38:20	Awareness of disharmony in order
	to be harmonious. I don't mean that.

38:28	I'm asking if awareness is the key

38:33	that brings about,
	naturally, harmony.

38:39	Q:Sir, is awareness
	an intellectual process?

38:44	Q:Awareness of what, sir?

38:46	Because the businessman
	who is generally sharp and cunning

38:49	is in his way tremendously aware.
	K:No, sir.

38:51	Q:He's aware of the
	slightest advantage.

38:54	Q:Isn't she right?

38:56	Q:Awareness of what?
	K:I want to find...

38:58	I'm going to...
	We are going to...

38:59	I'm asking you first a question, sir,

39:01	whether awareness is the key to this.

39:05	I don't know what awareness is yet

39:07	- we are going to find out,
	we're going to explore it.

39:13	So far one has explored the reason
	of disorder and disharmony

39:21	- the supremacy of one or the other,

39:26	this supremacy of the soma,
	the body,

39:33	or the supremacy of the intellect
	- emotion or the intellect,

39:38	or the appetite
	against the intellect,

39:40	and so on, so on, so on
	- the battle.

39:44	And I say to myself: has awareness

39:51	- you get it? -

39:52	is the awareness
	that will bring harmony,

39:56	that will make everything equal.

40:00	Q:A function which contains
	all that and is beyond it.

40:03	K:Yes. I just want
	to inquire into it.

40:11	Q:My question was related to that:

40:14	if an awareness of that nature,
	of that type,

40:18	you say is not
	an intellectual process,

40:20	then what is being aware?

40:24	K:We're going to find out, sir,
	we're going to find out.

40:27	We're going to find out
	what it means to be aware.

40:34	Because if the intellect says,
	'I will calm down,'

40:40	[laughs]
	it's a hypocritical thing,

40:45	and I will just hold myself in,
	ready to burst at any moment.

40:51	Q:Also that's a calculation.

40:53	K:You follow?
	And if the body says,

40:56	'All right then, I have a chance now'

41:00	- [laughter]
	- you follow? -

41:03	'Now I can let off the emotions.'

41:06	So can we...

41:12	what does awareness mean?

41:16	Why is awareness important in this?
	You follow, sir?

41:22	Here I have a problem.
	I have a problem.

41:25	I live in disharmony, in disorder.

41:34	Either the body becomes
	extraordinarily demanding,

41:38	vital - you follow? -

41:41	with its lust, with its
	appetites, with its...

41:45	or the intellect, or the emotions,

41:51	sentimentality of
	- you know.

41:56	And I see that and I say,

41:58	'Now, what is the element

42:02	that will bring all this
	into perfect rhythm?'

42:17	So that the body's perfect,
	you know, healthy,

42:20	so the emotions are really...

42:22	they are real emotions,
	not invented by the intellect,

42:26	and reason, sane, healthy.

42:34	I mean, whole implies - I don't know
	if you've looked at that word -

42:38	'whole' means whole,

42:42	in which is implied health, sanity,

42:47	and also 'whole' implies
	h- o-l-y - holy -

42:52	all that is in that word.

42:56	Which means the whole thing
	is whole, sane.

43:04	Now, what is the thing
	that will bring this about?

43:11	Not effort, because effort
	means... intellect says,

43:16	'By Jove, I see
	that's the way to live,

43:21	and I'm going after it.

43:23	I'm going to train the body,
	I'm going to train...'

43:25	- you follow? It's gone.

43:30	Q:If you say that is the way
	to live so I'm going after it,

43:33	you haven't really seen it.
	K:Of course not, of course not.

43:41	So what is the thing
	that will make it whole,

43:47	in which there must be not
	the slightest whisper of effort,

44:01	not the slightest directive?
	Right, sir?

44:08	Because the moment
	the intellect takes charge...

44:17	So the mind must be
	free of the directive,

44:24	sense of effort.

44:31	Now, how does this happen?

45:04	Shall I go on, sir?

45:17	Must the thing come from the outside

45:21	or must it begin from the inside out?

45:25	I don't know if I'm using
	non-technological words, but...

45:39	So let's tackle it.
	What does awareness mean?

45:43	Because I think that is the key.

45:46	I think - I may change it
	- you follow, sir? -

45:48	because we are exploring together,

45:50	therefore you may find
	something different.

45:53	We are together in this.

45:58	What does it mean?

46:01	I see this.
	I see through observation,

46:05	therefore through experiment,

46:11	testing, observing
	the fact, the event,

46:17	and learning about it,
	and not make from that...

46:21	not acquiring knowledge
	but merely learning.

46:25	Because knowledge,
	when it becomes knowledge,

46:27	it becomes the intellect and
	then it will say it will guide it.

46:30	I don't know if you...
	Can we go on from there?

46:35	Q:Could you repeat that again?

46:44	K:What did I say?
	Q:Because when you act from knowledge

46:48	then it is again the intellect
	which is guiding.

46:51	But learning is not
	to act from knowledge,

46:53	it is a state of being
	in which knowledge is not acting.

47:02	K:I see, one observes, the fact.

47:08	The fact: the intellect dominates,

47:12	the other two play second fiddle.

47:17	Now, harmony means
	functioning together

47:25	as a whole, not as fragments.

47:32	Now, the mind sees this,
	sees how it is broken up.

47:40	Right? How does it see it?

47:49	Is the seeing a word?

47:54	Q:Or accumulated knowledge.

47:56	K:No, a word.

47:59	That is, I must see this thing.

48:08	Or do I, by the very fact
	of this dialogue, it is exposed

48:16	and I see it as I see it in a map

48:20	- the three operating
	in contradiction with each other,

48:24	one dominating, and so on.
	Now, how do I see it?

48:37	Q:Is awareness maybe spontaneity?

48:41	K:Not... dangerous word, sir,
	if I may say so,

48:44	because to be spontaneous
	implies freedom.

48:52	And a mind that is... intellect
	that is dominating, is not free.

49:04	How do I see this?
	How does the mind see this thing?

49:10	See this fragmentation?

49:12	One fragment supremely important,
	the rest are minor?

49:17	I mean, when we use 'see,'
	how do you see it, sir?

49:27	You see these three fragments
	- one a little taller than the rest.

49:34	And when you say, 'I understand
	that,' what do you mean by that?

49:41	Is it a verbal understanding,

49:49	or is it an observation
	of what actually is,

49:57	without any distortion

50:01	- saying this must not be,
	this should be?

50:05	I don't know if...
	How do you look at it?

50:10	Q:Does the seeing allow
	for a certain verbal action too?

50:16	Do we ruin it the moment
	we ascribe any word to it?

50:20	K:No, I may use words afterwards.
	Q:Afterwards.

50:23	K:Yes.
	Q:The seeing is before the word.

50:27	K:The word - that's right.
	Before the word, obviously,

50:29	otherwise the seeing is the word.

50:31	Q:Don't we perhaps immediately...

50:34	K:Yes, that's what
	I was warning, too.

50:37	Is it a verbal seeing
	or actual seeing?

50:44	Q:How can you see it if your mind
	is always condemning?

50:47	Your censor is interfering,
	and you can't see it.

50:51	K:Yes, doctor, but look, sir,
	this is a fact, isn't it?

50:56	Q:Yes.
	K:The fact that one is these three.

50:59	Q:Yes, that's right.
	K:That's a fact.

51:01	Now, how do you look at that fact?

51:06	Q:I'm saying
	you can't look at it without...

51:08	K:No, no, no, I'm not interested
	in your condemnation,

51:10	judgment, evaluation
	- then you don't see.

51:16	So put aside all that and look.

51:21	Then how do you see it?

51:32	If you put that out

51:34	- if you put... justification,
	condemnation, all the rest of it,

51:41	aren't you looking harmoniously?

51:43	Q:[Inaudible]

51:44	K:No, sir, no, sir, no, sir,
	do go slow.

51:57	Are you looking
	through the intellect,

52:01	which justifies, condemns,
	says this is right,

52:04	society has produced this,
	etc., etc.

52:08	- which is all the act
	of the intellect -

52:12	and when you put aside justification,
	condemnation and all that,

52:16	how do you look at it?

52:24	Q:You look attentively at the whole.
	K:Do you?

52:28	Don't theorize about it,
	then we play tricks.

52:42	Can you look at this table, sir,

52:45	without being caught
	in the description?

52:59	Because the description
	is not the table.

53:04	Right? Can you look at it
	without the word?

53:10	Saying it's a marble, I like it,
	I don't like it, strange painting

53:13	- you know, all the rest of it,
	go through it -

53:17	how ugly, how beautiful, etc., etc.

53:20	- just to observe.

53:25	Q:And even observe
	without looking at a table.

53:28	K:Ah, no, no - how can I observe
	without looking at...

53:32	Q:It's a great idea.

53:34	K:Then you are looking
	at the idea of a table.

53:43	Can you look that way?

53:49	And when you do look that way,
	don't you see the whole of it,

53:54	not just what you think it should be.

54:05	So can the mind look
	at the three fragments

54:14	without the word,

54:19	and therefore justification,
	or adjustment, and so on,

54:24	without all that,
	can the mind look at this fact?

54:31	T:Five minutes left.

54:36	K:He wants five minute's rest.

54:40	T:There are five minutes left.

54:41	K:I see.

54:51	Q:It has to become quiet.

54:59	K:Does it, sir - quiet?
	What does that mean?

55:03	Q:I can't see this table -
	thoughts keep coming in to block it.

55:10	K:No, sir.

55:13	Look, sir, do look at it, it's
	very interesting, do look at it.

55:17	If you really want to look
	at that table, is there any thought?

55:28	When you are inattentive,
	all the things happen.

55:39	Therefore awareness and attention
	is the factor of harmony.

55:49	I don't know if you are...

55:54	If I don't look...
	if the mind doesn't look...

55:59	if the mind looks
	with any distortion,

56:03	which is of effort,
	judgment, etc., etc.,

56:07	then the observation is distorted,

56:12	disharmony, not harmonious.

56:15	Now, to look at it with harmony

56:19	is to look at these fragments

56:25	without any distortion, prejudice,

56:28	want, must not, all the rest of it.

56:35	And doesn't that
	itself create silence?

56:45	Not the mind must become silent
	but that itself...

56:49	Q:The looking.

56:53	K:If I want to look at that tree,

56:55	or that sunset, or these
	lovely hills, I look.

57:01	And that very look
	wipes away everything else.

57:05	Q:Are you saying we're not
	interested in looking?

57:08	K:No, no. No.

57:11	Then you will say, 'How am I
	to have the interest?' [Laughs]

57:16	We are caught in a trap then.

57:21	But to see the fact
	that we live in disharmony,

57:28	to see how this disharmony,
	this disorder has come into being

57:33	- of intellect, and so on, so on -
	just to see it.

57:42	And the very seeing of it
	has its own silence.

57:55	Because without...

57:56	if there is a noise
	I can't look at those mountains.

58:02	The very looking at those mountains

58:08	is bringing about its own silence.

58:24	So how do you look?

58:26	Through the intellect?

58:34	Do you look at that tree,
	those hills,

58:37	or do you look at these fragments,
	the intellect, and so on

58:43	- how do you look at all this?
	With chattering?

59:11	Can we look at this question
	in another way?

59:22	You know, control

59:30	has apparently become
	extraordinarily important,

59:33	because they say you must have...

59:38	the body must be
	completely controlled,

59:44	your mind must be completely held

59:49	so that it doesn't wander off.

59:54	And your emotions and everything
	must be trained.

1:00:01	So, meditation implies to make
	the body sit completely quiet.

1:00:11	That's the beginning of it.

1:00:14	And to make that body
	completely quiet,

1:00:18	train it by being aware
	of every movement of the body.

1:00:26	Right? I don't know if you
	have ever gone into all this.

1:00:32	Watch your body move,
	or make the body move

1:00:36	- the toe, the ankle, the knee,
	and so on -

1:00:40	gradually watch it, watch it.

1:00:43	You follow, sir?

1:00:46	So out of this watching, the body
	becomes extraordinarily healthy.

1:00:52	I don't know if...

1:00:56	Have you ever played
	with this kind of stuff?

1:01:03	So, then in the same way, watch
	your emotions, watch your thoughts,

1:01:09	watch so that it doesn't move away

1:01:14	from the direction it has been set.

1:01:20	Which is, 'I must think of God.'

1:01:23	I'm using the word 'God,'
	or an ideal,

1:01:26	or some phrase, or something,
	or other

1:01:28	- Jesus, the Buddha, what it is.

1:01:31	So that there is...
	your mind is held in that line,

1:01:38	in that groove.

1:01:41	So control has been imposed on this,

1:01:47	and we have accepted this

1:01:50	as the way of leading
	a very straight, orderly life.

1:02:01	That is very disorder...
	that itself is disorder.

1:02:11	I don't know if you see this,
	because that means,

1:02:13	you know, the whole thing
	is resistance.

1:02:18	Q:One idea is dominating...
	K:I mean the whole...

1:02:27	We are saying don't do that,
	that's all wrong, but be aware.

1:02:37	Be aware without distortion,
	without choice,

1:02:44	without giving a direction.

1:02:50	And that very awareness
	will make the body quiet.

1:02:54	You follow?

1:03:00	Not the other way.

1:03:05	I don't know if you...

1:03:07	Q:Will you discuss anger
	from the same point of view?

1:03:09	I'd like to hear you
	talk about anger.

1:03:11	K:Anger.
	Q:Anger,

1:03:14	from this point of view
	of an awareness. You get angry.

1:03:19	K:No, I don't think
	you'll ever be angry.

1:03:25	And therefore there's
	no need for suppression.

1:03:28	You're ahead of anger.
	I don't know...

1:03:32	Sorry to put it that way.

1:03:33	Q:The reason I mention this is because
	psychologists and psychiatrists...

1:03:37	K:You see it coming, you can feel it,

1:03:40	and you know how to deal with it.

1:03:46	We know how to deal with it
	after it happens.

1:03:50	Awareness is to see it
	arise and deal with...

1:03:54	and soften it down as it happens.

1:04:06	Q:You are saying that we will
	really know how to deal with it.

1:04:14	Now it's a matter of our doing it.
	It really will happen...

1:04:19	K:Sir, do it now,
	you will see it for yourself

1:04:24	what extraordinary thing this is.

1:04:29	Not because I say.
	What I say has no importance, but...

1:04:32	Q:[Inaudible]
	...the total organism...

1:04:38	K:Yes, sir, obviously.

1:04:40	A man who is extraordinarily
	energetic is not angry.

1:04:54	A man who has got this sense
	of complete harmony,

1:04:57	you know, complete security,
	then what in...

1:05:01	I mean - sorry!
	[Laughs]

1:05:08	Q:Is it true that... does love always
	flow out of this full awareness?

1:05:13	K:Ah, no, no.
	Sir... [laughs]

1:05:21	Do you think a flower that is full
	of perfume saying, 'This is love'?

1:05:31	Q:I don't mean the idea of love.

1:05:33	K:I'm saying a flower
	- there it is.

1:05:36	It's got so much perfume,
	lovely, so tender...

1:05:53	Intellect says
	love must be personal,

1:05:56	impersonal, godly, noble, fine,
	this, that - you know? -

1:06:02	make a nice mess of it.

1:06:13	I mean, this whole Catholic world
	is now in revolution

1:06:16	because it has accepted

1:06:19	that in the service of God
	you must be a celibate.

1:06:25	Q:Or pretend to be, or seem to be.

1:06:29	K:Celibate - don't actually
	sleep with a woman

1:06:32	but bottle it inside yourself
	but don't do it outwardly.

1:06:38	And also it's the same in India,
	the same in Asia.

1:06:43	They boil, burn,
	destroy themselves inwardly,

1:06:46	but outwardly Jesus, and Buddha,
	and, you know, all the rest of it.

1:06:58	So we are saying,
	seeing all this phenomenon,

1:07:06	the harmonious life
	is only possible

1:07:16	in the observation
	of the fact, the event,

1:07:22	and looking at it
	- and nothing else.

1:07:30	How you look matters,

1:07:33	not what you look at.
	I don't know...

1:07:43	If there is a distance between
	the observer and the observed

1:07:49	then it's finished.

1:07:54	Q:If there is an observer.
	K:If there is an observer.

1:08:02	The flower with perfume doesn't say,

1:08:05	'This is love, this is beauty,

1:08:07	I am full of this,
	I am full of that' - it is that.

1:08:23	Q:Sir, the very situation,

1:08:25	the distance between
	the observer and the observed.

1:08:28	Is there another way
	of putting that phrase 'distance,'

1:08:34	is there another way
	of looking at that?

1:08:38	K:Another way of looking at it, sir,

1:08:40	is to look at it
	without the observer,

1:08:46	to look at it so that there is
	only this thing that's observed,

1:08:53	not the interpretation
	of what is observed.

1:09:00	And when you do look
	at the fragments

1:09:04	- intellect and all the rest of it -

1:09:07	as the non-observer,
	are there fragments?

1:09:15	I don't know if you...
	You follow, sir?

1:09:22	The observer is a fragment.

1:09:28	The observer observes the fragments,

1:09:32	the three fragments.

1:09:35	And so he becomes
	the separate entity,

1:09:39	an outsider who is looking in.

1:09:43	But the observer is
	the thing that he observes.

1:09:50	He may put himself outside
	but he's part of those three.

1:09:55	So the observer is the observed,

1:09:58	and therefore no distance.

1:10:01	And can the mind look that way
	without identifying,

1:10:07	saying, 'I am the whole, I am this.'

1:10:20	Sir, look, another extraordinary
	thing takes place when you look...

1:10:25	I mean, to look, as we generally do,
	as the observer and the observed,

1:10:33	that has created its own discipline,

1:10:42	its own disorder.

1:10:46	But to look without the observer
	requires a discipline

1:10:53	in the sense of tremendous
	learning to look.

1:11:01	Right?

1:11:02	Q:Learning in looking.
	K:Learning in looking.

1:11:05	Q:Not in... [inaudible]
	K:No.

1:11:08	Q:But doesn't that take time?
	K:No, sir.

1:11:10	Q:The two are the same.
	K:No, sir, it doesn't take time.

1:11:14	Look, sir, look at those mountains
	without the observer

1:11:21	- just look, sir,
	and see what takes place.

1:11:29	I wish you were sitting here
	instead of me; you would see it.

1:11:52	You see, that's really quite...

1:11:54	To look without the image
	- you follow, sir? -

1:11:57	that's what it means
	- to look at my wife, husband,

1:12:02	the hills, the trees, the birds,

1:12:04	the whole movement of this beauty
	without the image.

1:12:19	Because the image is the observer.

1:12:22	The image is the intellect.

1:12:25	You see, sir, how tied it is?

1:12:31	How tied together it all is.

1:12:41	So one has to take the whole of it
	or not at all. [Laughs]

1:12:51	You can't say,
	'Well, I like a fragment of it,

1:12:54	I am going to use it.'

1:12:56	Then you are going to destroy
	the whole thing.

1:13:03	Q:Could you say a few
	more words about that,

1:13:07	this sustained seriousness -

1:13:09	For a while we can sustain it.

1:13:12	You brought up
	the question yourself,

1:13:14	because I haven't heard
	you say anything about it:

1:13:16	sustained seriousness.

1:13:19	K:Sustained... We have done this.
	A whole hour we have spent at it!

1:13:22	Q:[Inaudible]

1:13:24	K:Ah! If you spent
	a whole hour and a half at this,

1:13:28	you will do it the rest
	of the time, naturally.

1:13:34	Including going to the cinema.
	[Laughs]

1:13:45	Q:This doesn't leave out playfulness,
	does it? [Laughter]

1:13:50	Q:I hope not.

1:13:54	K:It all depends on what you mean
	by playfulness. [Laughter]

1:13:59	Q:[Inaudible]

1:14:04	K:Sir, that means enjoyment
	is something entirely different

1:14:08	- joy is entirely different
	from pleasure.

1:14:11	Q:Yes.
	K:Ah, no!

1:14:16	Q:I think there is
	some kind of a connotation

1:14:20	to the word 'seriousness' that...

1:14:22	K:Of course, of course.
	Q:To the word.

1:14:28	K:What time is it, sir?
	Q:Half past twelve, sir.

1:14:31	K:Oh, I think we'd better stop,
	don't you?