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ML70DSG8 - How is one to be entirely free of fear?
Malibu, California - 29 March 1970
Discussion with Small Group 8



0:14 K:I wonder how one can speed down, lower down or shorten the speed of fear. I think that we should go into that a little more, deeply into the question of fear, don't you? I don't know if... Because we have touched upon it two or three times during the course of these discussions and I'm not sure to what depth or to what extent one has really understood it and free from that terrible thing. Shall we discuss it this morning?

Q:Yes.
1:47 K:One becomes aware of it, or it is there always dormant and awakens to any challenge that is disagreeable or dangerous, to any questioning, of any form of resistance and security, both psychological, psychosomatic and otherwise. When one becomes aware of it, fear, how does one... what does one do with it, or what is there to be done? Please, let us - don't let me carry on alone.
2:51 Q:To understand the fear is to be afraid now, no?
2:54 K:No, sir, no, no. Don't reduce it to such... [laughs] Fear, sir, physical danger, physical illness and the pain of it, and the recurring of that pain, fear of death, fear of loneliness, fear of not being able to fulfil, fear of not being loved, fear of complete isolation, loneliness, fear of not having anything to depend upon - you know, the various types of fears one has, from the most neurotic to the most neurotically sublime. What is one to do? Will the understanding of the cause of that fear - of fear, not of any particular fear, but of fear - absolve fear, dissipate it? One knows the cause of fear as loneliness, not having anything to depend upon, belief, person or things. Knowing the cause, knowing all the intricacies, all the explanations, all the descriptions, will that somehow get rid of fear? Won't you join me in this, or am I to carry on by myself?
5:34 Q:When you see yourself in that fear and you see, you understand, you can feel it and see it - isn't that the moment where it just isn't anymore, and you can act on that thing. But you do not act, I mean, you don't react, you see it, and you just go.
6:05 Q:Isn't what to do about fear more important than the fear itself?
6:15 K:Fear itself is more important than what you do about fear.
6:19 Q:He said the reverse.

K:You said the reverse - all right. All right, sir, you have explained all these things - then what? When I leave this room I'm still afraid - it has me by the throat. And I would like to entirely be free of it, completely, so it never touches the mind. How is that to be done? Does one really want to do this, to be entirely free of fear, or is fear a sustaining element in our life? Belief, obviously, is the result of fear - belief in so many things. And knowing the danger of belief we cling to it, though it breeds fear. So does one really understand the nature of belief and then with it fear goes? Which means the mind becomes more... mind is freed from the things that are causing fear. That's one problem. Then the other is: is it to be done slowly, analytically, taking time, day after day cutting, peeling off the layers of fear, or must it be done at once totally, completely? I don't know if I am making myself clear.
9:13 Q:I can't see that there isn't preparation before seeing it completely, totally.
9:18 K:No, sir, I know this is the good old business of preparation, training, discipline.

Q:Can we go into that?
9:27 K:Wait, we're going to go into all that presently, but let us see the question involved in this, the question itself.
9:36 Q:Can fear give you confidence to act?
9:41 K:No, I - please. One is afraid - fear caused by belief - because I hold on to a particular form of concept, formula, ideation, which is very gratifying, gives me vitality, gives me something to lean on - my wife, my husband, my house, my belief, my God, my religion, my - you know - knowledge, and so on, so on. And that, the very leaning on it, depending on it, sustains fear.
10:31 Q:Which means that fear sustains itself.
10:34 K:So that's one question: do I really... does the mind really want to be free of belief? And therefore awaken fear, bring it out, not wait for it to come bit by bit. Then the other thing involved is: is this to be done gradually, little by little? Which is, prepare - prepare to meet fear totally, to understand it completely - eyes that have been trained, prepared, disciplined, made attentive, alert, aware. All that implies time. Or is it to be... is the mind to put aside all that - for me all that is fallacy - and face the whole thing? Through one belief I can see the whole structure of all belief, all concepts, all formulas, all dependence on organisations, psychologically. So, one knows fairly well the cause of fear, which is dependence and therefore lack of love. When the mind depends on somebody or on some belief, love is absent, obviously, and it breeds fear. Now, is the mind capable of being free of belief, opinion, judgement, concepts, formulas, which divide? As we were saying yesterday, which divide and therefore conflict and therefore fear, and all the rest of it. Does one really, does the mind, each one's mind, does it say it must be? Do we go that far?
13:51 Q:When you see the fallacy of any one of these things...
13:54 K:Not 'when,' sir - do you see it? No, don't let's theorise about it. I want to leave this morning... when I leave this room I want to be free of fear forever. It won't touch the mind. Otherwise it's not worth it. You follow? So how is that to be done?
14:16 Q:Sir, haven't you gone through preparation?
14:18 K:No, no, no, cut me out! No, no, I don't think that works that way - preparation. Do you know what it means, sir? Do listen to it. Preparation implies time - right? - gradually prepare to face fear, to face loneliness.
14:37 Q:No.

K:Then what are you preparing?
14:40 Q:I see it as a matter of acquiring a tool. I don't expect to see it through the practice.
14:49 K:Look, sir, look at your own difficulty. Who is the entity that is acquiring the tool? It is thought, obviously - thought sharpened. Our thought is dull, accepts things, says: yes, I know, fear is caused by belief and formulas, ideations, divisions, so it is inevitable, it's part of our instinct, part of our culture, part of our society, part of our religion, and we've got into the habit of it, and so the mind being rather dull accepts it. And you say to sharpen dullness needs time. Right? Come on, sirs.
15:59 Q:Growth needs time.
16:03 K:Growth needs time. Baby, up to manhood, and all the rest of it - time. Is there such thing as time in the field of psychology, in the psyche? Psychologically is there time at all? You see, that...
16:27 Q:And is this a question of growth? Is growth involved?
16:35 K:What is it that is growing?

Q:Thought.
16:42 K:Thought. Look, sir, can thought grow? Thought being the past, a response of the past. You can strengthen the past and strengthen thought, not make it grow. Is there such thing as growth?
17:19 Q:I have seen people grow progressively less fearful in a marked way, but I personally have never seen people instantaneously...
17:29 K:We are going to find out, sir.
17:32 Q:If we have a door, either we open it or the door remains closed. Either the door is closed or it's open, never in between.
17:44 Q:Isn't the word 'growth' here a concept and therefore it lies in comparison?
17:49 K:Look, sir, we have accepted growth as a means of getting rid of fear, slowly - you know, the whole traditional thing. In that acceptance, in the idea of growth, time, what is it that is growing?
18:19 Q:Isn't it thought, which is the problem to begin with?
18:22 K:Look, what is growing? What is it that we have accepted as inevitable that you should grow, slowly get rid of fear?
18:31 Q:The centre from which fear is coming.
18:34 K:You find out, sir, look at it, find out.
18:39 Q:The accumulation of experience.
18:45 K:Accumulation of experience. Man has fought wars for the last five thousand years, and it's still going on. Experience must have taught the poor chap not to kill by now, but he goes on killing. No, we're not facing the issue. Look, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of being completely lonely, I'm afraid of not being loved, not being famous, not being somebody in this world, and so on - afraid. And am I to get rid of it, is the mind to be free of it slowly? Is that ever possible? Which means I must have time from here to there - 'there' being when the mind is free of fear. Now, what happens in that interval between now and tomorrow? What happens there?
20:07 Q:Fear.
20:08 K:No, do watch it, sir - what happens?
20:13 Q:Can you not examine it, to stay with it, to look what is implied?
20:17 K:No, no, do look at this simple phenomenon, sir. What happens between now, when I am afraid, when the mind is afraid, till when it is not going to be afraid through time, growth, evolve?
20:39 Q:What is…
20:40 K:Do listen, look at the fact, sir! Don't speculate on it. What happens if I think I'll be happy in two week's time?
21:10 Q:You relax. [Laughter]

Q:Illusion.
21:16 K:Do look at it, sir, do look at the fact. I am violent and eventually, slowly, gradually I'll become non-violent. Violence will peter out of me. What has happened between these... between the interval, between now and then? Am I not strengthening violence? Are there not other factors entering into violence, into that period of time? Won't I have more problems engendered by violence? No?

Q:I don't see why.
22:09 K:No?
22:16 Q:All sorts of things intervene and you haven't really given your attention totally to the one thing that you're trying to be free of.
22:26 K:Therefore why not give your whole attention to the fact of fear now, not gradually…? Sir, come on, sir.
22:40 Q:The hard point is seeing that the future as opposed to the present is conflict, violence.
22:45 K:Of course. No, sir, I want to be... the mind says, 'I must be free when I leave this room.' What are you going to do? Put that question and see what happens.
23:10 Q:If I want to be free of it then I want to see it now while I'm here.
23:18 K:See it then. Don't introduce time into the factor, into the fact. If you're hungry, would you say, 'Gradually I'll eat, take time, months and years to satisfy my hunger'? And fear is much more dangerous. So what will you do? What will you do when faced with this fact, that when you leave this room one must be free of it completely?
24:17 Q:How can you undo the conditioning, say, of fifty years of fear in one split second?
24:24 K:I'll show it to you in a minute, sir. You go on at it. You keep at it. You will soon find out.
24:34 Q:If you compare it to hunger, you want to sit down and get at it right now.
24:39 K:Do it.
24:45 Q:Are we looking for a replacement for fear?
24:47 K:No, that's another trick. A substitution for fear is still fear.
24:53 Q:Yes, that's why we can't get rid of it.
24:56 K:No. Look, sir, look at what our mind does. I'm afraid, the mind is afraid, and so we say: we are used to this conditioning that it must be done gradually, it cannot be done instantly. That's one of our blocks, right? No?
25:27 Q:Yes.
25:29 K:Now, can you get rid of that block? Can the mind brush it away?
25:37 Q:If there's the urgency.

K:Isn't it an urgent thing this?
25:41 Q:No. It hurts a little, but not badly.
25:48 K:Why isn't it urgent, sir?
25:51 Q:God knows.
25:54 K:God knows. When you say, 'God knows,' you mean you haven't thought about it. No, I'm not laughing at it. I mean, I haven't thought about the mess in the world.
26:21 Q:So we see that time is out, sir.
26:23 K:No, no. We say that, sir, and go back to it.
26:26 Q:No, we see that it's out, it's mathematically impossible.
26:31 K:And that means analysis is out.

Q:Everything is.
26:35 K:No, no, look at it, sir. Time means analysis.
26:42 Q:Analysis means time.

K:Of course, both. So the mind has rejected completely analysis. And it has rejected completely the cause.
27:05 Q:And faith.
27:06 K:Faith is formula, and all the rest of it. No, wait, sir, do it, sir, let's... So is the mind that is now here operating free, without substituting another cause, another escape, of the idea of analysis? Analysis implies the analyser and the analysed. Analysis implies a constant examination, and each examination, analysis, must be complete, otherwise you carry over something which is going to interpret the next analysis. All that involves time - terrific danger. Does one see that? And the seeing of it, will it take time? I wonder why we accept time at all, apart from the chronological time, time by the watch - yesterday, today and tomorrow - why we accept time at all. Is it part of laziness, indolence? Part of this terrible indifference, which accepts, puts up with, and so on?
29:57 Q:It also extends the power of our egos because...
30:01 K:Yes, sir. Is time, analysis, out of your system altogether? [Laughs] And if you find the cause of fear, will that free the mind of fear?
30:41 Q:Fear in duration.
30:46 K:In duration?
30:47 Q:Yes, there also would be time.

K:Of course.
30:53 Q:Not fear itself. Let's say that right now I experience fear. Now, if the process of fear, I let it happen all the way through until the experience completely happens, and I devote myself totally to it without bringing the future into it - in other words, 'I'll handle this part of it tomorrow' - the total fear of whatever I'm afraid of right now, I let myself wide open and let it happen. And when I leave the room I cannot carry this part of what is taking place outside.
31:40 K:Yes, sir, that's right. Why don't we do that? Why don't we, when fear arises, give complete attention to it?
31:53 Q:With a child, we say, 'Do not be afraid' - we deny that fear is part of the human experience, this human quality that we all have.
32:10 Q:Fear is something to be afraid of.
32:16 Q:When you're a child, you don't have that process of time as much, and I think one learns to use it to protect oneself from fear.
32:31 Q:A child doesn't have any fear if he has no thought of the moment, of before.
32:41 K:Sir, need we - forgive me for reminding you - need we discuss a child when we are grown-up people? At least thinking we are grown-up. Here is a problem, sir, do please put your teeth into this. Because I see, the mind sees the tremendous danger of fear - how it can become neurotic, pervert, you know, the most destructive thing in life, fear. We have tried so many ways to get rid of it, escape of different kinds, rationalising it, and so on, so on, so on. And if the mind says, 'Now, there must be a way of getting rid of it completely.' If you apply your mind to the finding out what to do to end it completely, won't you have the energy for it?
34:27 Q:Sir? What one must do then to be free of any cause of fear, any dependency, anything at all which we have come to depend upon for so long, whether it be money or anything else at all - would imply walking out of the room with no fear at all, would imply a person who is totally himself… [inaudible]
35:03 K:To be oneself are you saying? I should think oneself is the most dangerous fear.
35:11 Q:Well, what I meant by that, sir, be totally independent.
35:17 Q:It seems to me that we aren't serious enough about it.
35:21 K:Then why, sir, then why take all this trouble to come and sit here and discuss with the poor chap coming from... What's the point of it? Just for the fun of it?
35:32 Q:No, I mean if we were trapped...

K:You are trapped!
35:35 Q:...and there's no other way out…

K:You are trapped!
35:39 Q:Don't we put all our energy into the evasion of fear and therefore never get anyplace?
35:47 K:Of course you do. Evasion is one of our first instinctual responses.
35:52 Q:That is fear.

K:Of course. You see, you're giving explanations. [Laughs] I can give a dozen explanations but at the end of it I've still got fear. What is to be done?
36:10 Q:Are you implying that at any given moment there is no fear, but by giving it time we have fear, by giving it time?
36:16 K:Obviously. Moving away from 'what is,' the very movement away is fear. Now, can the mind not move away at all? Non-verbally, verbally, you know, in any form, not move away from that.
37:11 Q:I think you can only be quiet, and watch, and see what happens.
37:15 K:Oh, sir, don't - that's all time. [Laughs] Time won't absolve it. Time won't resolve it. Finding the cause of fear won't resolve it. Analysis won't free the mind from... So what is one to do? Go on, sirs, it's up to you. And also there is this question: the very deep, hidden fears, of which one is not aware - to bring all these out on the surface.
38:49 Q:Are there different fears, sir, or is there only fear?
38:54 K:I think there is fear in relation to different things.
38:58 Q:But it's the same fear.

K:The same fear, of course.
39:01 Q:How can we bring them all out? There are a million of them.
39:03 K:No, sir, look at the... you see, look at the problem involved.
39:08 Q:If we have to look for them all it takes time.
39:10 K:No, you don't have to look for them all. Look at the problem, what is involved in this, how we have destroyed - you follow? - inventing all this hocus-pocus. Look, put it round the other way. Action of fear is one thing, and action without the mind burdened with dependency. The mind that is free from all dependency, its action is different. And the mind that is burdened with fear, its action also is different, entirely different.
40:34 Q:Would you mind explaining where dependency comes into this, sir? Because there are fears that have nothing to do with dependency.
40:42 K:Yes, sir. Is there fear which is not in some form or another dependent? Self-preservation, which is enlightened intelligence, not fear, physical survival. Dependency - I depend on you or something psychologically. I depend because there is the sense of vast inward nakedness, of which I'm afraid. I depend on ideas and cleverness because - you know, that's another form of dependence. Where there is dependency, where there is duality, me depending on something, there must be fear, obviously.
42:09 Q:If I have cancer and I feel pain next month, is that dependency? Because I know that people die with great pain, and I think this is coming my way. Is that dependency?
42:22 K:Isn't it, subtle form?
42:29 Q:It could be dependency on some idea.
42:31 Q:The doctor says, 'You're for it.'

K:You're for it. Then if I'm not afraid, I say, 'All right, sir, take it out.'
42:38 Q:Pain is very...

K:Which means what? Look at it. Go back. Look at it, the whole thing - memory of health, the time when I had no pain and now I have pain, and the idea that I might have pain for the next ten years, as long as I live.
43:09 Q:Does it not mean that I must give up all hope of saving myself psychologically in any way whatsoever?
43:20 K:I should think so. Now...
43:26 Q:In any case, this inquiry takes time, sir, so we can't even go into the question of whether fear means dependency, because all this is time. What are we going to do about fear, understanding that time is out?
43:40 K:Sir, because our minds are so conditioned that we don't see at a glance the whole structure and let it go, and therefore one has to examine the structure. The examination of the structure is not the structure. The description isn't the thing described. And we are playing with that all the time. And we have to make all that clear so that the mind become sharp enough to remain with that fact of fear, so that it doesn't escape at all.
44:24 Q:But, sir, aren't we examining with the same tool, which is old?
44:29 K:Naturally. Are you examining - now wait a minute, sir, look at something - are you examining or observing? No, no, this is very important.
44:44 Q:If by observation then you mean...

K:No, wait, look at it. Are you observing the phenomena, the structure, the nature - just observing? Or are you examining? The two things are different, aren't they? At least I... They are different, for me at least. I observe the tree, I don't examine it. I observe the tree and see all the movement of the breeze, and the leaves and, you know, the beauty of it - I observe.
45:24 Q:So then in observation is there no accumulation?
45:28 K:That's what we are - yes, of course not. So, please, sir, follow it. Are we examining or observing?
45:37 Q:You examine something that's sick, but you observe something that's alive.
45:45 K:Moving, living, like a river that's moving, you're observing. You're on the bank and the water is going by - you're observing. Now here, what are we doing, observing or examining?
46:01 Q:Excuse me, sir, but the statement there - can't you observe something that's sick also?
46:06 Q:Of course you can.
46:08 K:Don't let's beat round that for the moment. What are we doing, sir? Are we examining or observing?
46:20 Q:It seems to me we are examining and we should be observing.
46:23 K:Not seems to you, sir - what are you doing? Here we have described this whole thing, examined it, explored it, analysed it, tore it to pieces, in different ways, each contributing his bit. At the end of it, are we observing this, what we have examined, or are you still examining? Which means discovering more causes, more explanations, more descriptions, more opinions, more… the knowledge of the specialists, and so on, so on, so on. We can do that indefinitely. Now, can we stop all that and observe? Now, this observation is instantaneous, isn't it? I don't know... No, sir. Therefore there is no time. I mean, if I go back to my childhood, why I'm afraid, because my mother put me on a different pot from the old pot [laughter] - there is no end to that kind of game. So, here, after examining very, very - you know - simply and very clearly - now am I observing? And therefore my observation is completely attentive. There is no distraction, there is no perversion, no translation, no interpretation, no seeking, nothing but absolute attention to observe. And in that state, when there is complete observation that way, is there fear? Then you say, 'Now how am I to maintain this attention? I can do it for the moment, but when I go out, it's back, I'm lost.' Now see the game we play with ourselves. When I leave, I become inattentive. Right? Then I say to myself, 'How am I to make myself attentive? What discipline, what foolishness?' So I'm back again. So, at the moment of inattention, observe inattention, not try to change it into something else. I don't know if you're meeting all this. And as one cannot possibly be so completely attentive all the time, but the moment there is a challenge which awakens fear, you are there - I don't know - your whole attention there. Therefore be inattentive and know you're inattentive. I don't know if you're following this.
50:55 Q:Are you saying to observe whatever is going on with oneself without trying to change it, without trying to make it any different?
51:09 K:Obviously, obviously, obviously.
51:13 Q:Sir, in a previous talk, you mentioned the very nature of the mind itself, how it demands security, for example. Is it not also so that the mind cannot be occupied with two things at the same time and therefore while it is attentive that is where it is occupied? The mind cannot be in fear and attentive simultaneously. Is that right?

K:No, sir, not quite. No. No, sir, if I may….

Q:Yes.
51:51 K:We have examined the nature of fear, what happens when there is fear, how we postpone, how we run away, how we get more and more entangled in things which sustain fear. By examining all that, the mind has become alert, and then it says, 'Now, I'll observe now. I'm going to observe, not analyse anymore, examine anymore.' And when the mind which has examined, observed, gone in, you know, explored, it becomes extraordinarily sensitive, doesn't it, and therefore very intelligent. And intelligence is this observation. And as the mind cannot be awake twenty-four hours of the day, it has to sleep sometime - let it sleep, but know it is sleeping. Not say, 'I must sleep. I must change it to this.' You know, sir, at the end of this hour, is fear with you? [Laughs]
53:59 Q:You said that sleeping is escaping? Is that what you said?
54:09 K:No, sir. No, sir, I didn't... Sleeping is a most marvellous thing, but we won't go into that. Sir, most of us are inattentive. And because we are inattentive all the escape and the strengthening of fear comes - because we are inattentive. The speed of attention is to examine and observe. Or in the very process of examination, observe. As you are examining, observe. I don't know if you...
55:08 Q:We are observing. I mean, we sense we are fearful. We observe. Now, our whole feeling and behaviour is fear. We see we are fearful of losing something or being… [inaudible] - we observe that. We are there, we're standing our ground, we're in it and observing it. Then the very observation is the ending of the fear?
55:46 K:Yes, sir, but you... it all depends how you observe.
55:50 Q:Not critically...

K:No, no, no, no. Ah, that's where the key is. If you observe with dull eyes, there is nothing to observe. But if you observe with the understanding that comes with the whole examination, exploration, then your eyes are clear to observe. You know, I was going to say something here which - I don't know if you want to go into it - about sleep. Would it interest you to go into it?
56:36 T:Can we change our tape with the change of subject? Yes, sir?
56:47 Q:If you have attention, tremendous attention to this fear and you are attentive, after you might say - I don't want to use the word 'time' but if you continually observe, pay tremendous attention to this, does not - it's like automatic after a while, it's like when you learn how to...
57:16 K:No, sir, no, sir, don't reduce it to a mechanical thing. It isn't a routine. It isn't something that... like a trained monkey. No, sir, it's much more subtle and beautiful than merely making it mechanical.
57:39 Q:Isn't it still within the ego? The attentiveness still blocks us in that. I'm attentive, I'm very alert and attentive at all times, but I'm still functioning.
57:59 K:Therefore we must find out what we mean by attentive. I mean, an egocentric person is also very attentive, for his own benefits, for his own - you know. But we're talking of a different kind of attention. Sir, what do we mean by sleep? What is sleep? Apart from the physical relaxation, tiredness, going to bed, having eight hours, or nine hours, or five hours of sleep - what is sleep? Please, sir, let's share this together, don't let me just sit here and talk about it. Let's go at it together.
59:15 Q:Sir, the cleansing process of washing the brain cells - that's what Shakespeare said about it.
59:31 K:Sir, suppose - unfortunately you read about all these things, I don't - you have never read a book, you don't know a thing about anything, and you're starting. What is sleep?
59:49 Q:I can't keep awake so I sleep. I'm tired.

K:Yes, sir, tired.
59:54 Q:Sleep is what you spoke about yesterday, sir. The order and the emptiness that you spoke about yesterday.
1:00:02 K:Yes, sir?

Q:Is the same as sleep.
1:00:06 K:Not quite.

Q:It is silence, which is silence...
1:00:08 K:We're going to find out, sir, don't let's bring in yet... I want to start as though… for the first time I want to enquire into this.
1:00:17 Q:Living for today was too much for me so I need to sleep.
1:00:20 K:Yes, that is, all the battle, all the noise, all the bustle, going to the office, quarrels, insults and, you know, all that's going on, and on, and on. The body and the brain cells get tired and inevitably they must rest. That's sleep, that's what we... All right, is there any other sleep?
1:00:48 Q:I'm not there when I sleep.
1:00:50 K:Ah, wait a minute, sir, don't say that. How do you know? On the contrary, when you dream you are there.
1:01:07 Q:There's asleep and there's attention.
1:01:10 K:No, sir, go into it, sir. Sleep - what does it mean? Do we sleep during the day? Not go to bed, I mean.
1:01:31 Q:When you're inattentive, you're somewhat asleep.
1:01:33 K:No, sir. Do we sleep during the day? The mind is quiet, tired, the brain cells have been active and say, 'Please, I must be quiet' - you know - 'relax, rest, sleep.' Or is it a perpetual movement, perpetual movement in which there is an occasional sleep? You follow what I mean? The brain and the mind are going all the time, working, working, working, working, responding, challenging, protecting - you follow? - frightened, aggressive, working, working, working. And in the movement of that, the body gets exhausted, the brain cells are weary and say, 'Please, I must go to bed now.' Right? But the brain cells and the whole of that is still going on. I should have thought sleep meant the end of that movement, at least for a period. The body says, 'I've had enough, I'm tired out,' goes to bed, but the brain goes on, at a minor key but still goes on - dreams, you know, restlessness, all the rest of it. Now, it would be reasonable to say the mind, the brain and the nervous system is keeping going, going, going all the time, and it is only when the brain and the mind are completely quiet there is sleep. I don't know...
1:04:06 Q:Are you're saying then that we don't really sleep as long as we're dreaming?
1:04:10 K:No, sir. No, I'm not saying anything. [Laughs] We're sharing together, sir. I'm not saying anything - I'm not your guru. So, the mind, the brain and the nervous organism apparently is in constant movement - right? - even though the body says: leave me alone for a while - but it still goes on inside. The brain is working, the mind... I don't know if you have noticed it, before you go to bed, if one is awake a little bit, you go over the day, don't you? You say, 'I should have done this, I should have done...' - you know, it tries to put some order. Watch it, sir. It tries to put some order. And the brain needs order and therefore is going to create order while you're asleep - which is a form of dream. I don't know if you... So, the brain itself says, 'Please, give me order. Don't perpetually keep in disorder, movement, movement.' I don't know if you have experimented with all this. So at the end of the day, consciously one tries to put some kind of order. No? Hasn't it happened? You've gone over the day and say, 'I should have done this, I shouldn't have done that, it should have been put this way, I should have written the letter that way' - you know, we go through all this. That is to bring about consciously order before going to sleep. And if you don't do it the brain is going to do it. And when you wake up next morning, you have a little more order, which becomes disorder by all the noise... So, see from this an extraordinary thing takes place. The brain demands order. It is going to get it during the day or during the sleep. It must have order. Right, sir? Now, if during the day there is complete order - follow it, sir, try it, do it, you'll see great fun out of this - complete order, which means no effort - you follow? - order.
1:07:31 Q:Silence.

K:Yes. I don't want to use that...
1:07:34 Q:But the silence can only come if there's order, otherwise...
1:07:37 K:I don't want to use it.
1:07:38 Q:The continuation of the disorder is the noise which stops the silence.
1:07:41 K:So, silence, order - all right - during the day, then you sleep. What happens? Right, sirs? Right?
1:07:59 Q:There must be complete rest.
1:08:06 K:Complete rest.
1:08:07 Q:No images that fill the mind.
1:08:15 K:Now look, sir - complete rest. A silly mind can be completely at rest, but it'll still remain a silly mind. I don't know if you're meeting my... Order, silence is one of the most difficult things. If during the day that doesn't come about, the brain cells say: please, I must have order. You have a problem, mathematical or psychological problem. You worry, worry for days and days, fuss around, look at it, and the brain has been working at it. It gets very tired, and during the sleep something takes place and the next morning you wake up and say, 'By Jove, I see it very clearly.' It has solved it. Right? Hasn't it? How? How does this happen? It's so simple, sir, there's no mystery about it. During the day you're worried, worried like dog with a bone, and at the end of the day the brain says: I've had enough, tired. There is a moment of complete relaxation, rest. Then at that moment you see things differently. Now… Shall we go on with this? Please, if you don't share it, there's no fun in this.
1:10:17 Q:At night you're not making the effort. The effort in the daytime… [inaudible] but at night you're not making the effort so you can get order.
1:10:26 K:Yes. Therefore, sir, you are... we are saying the same thing. During the day effort, contradiction produces disorder. At night there is a certain relaxation which brings about order. Which again is destroyed the next day. And so this game goes on, and on, and on, and on. Now, during the day there is order, no effort, all the rest of it. I don't know if you do it. If you can do it you will see what happens. Then the brain goes to bed, goes to sleep. What happens? Must it have dreams anymore?
1:11:24 Q:No.

K:Don't say no. This is guesswork.
1:11:34 Q:The mind works without anything controlling it at all.
1:11:37 K:Does it work at all?
1:11:40 Q:Just on its own action.

K:No, sir, you don't even...
1:11:43 Q:I'm not expressing what I've been trying to say, but it's like things have become very clear, very quiet, and this is not on any action of anybody making it quiet. There is no person controlling it or making the mind...
1:11:59 K:So what does that mean, sir?
1:12:02 Q:Things would become very clear, it seems.
1:12:06 K:During the day you have done it.
1:12:10 Q:During the day?

K:Yes, during the day you have done all that. You are no longer a slave to propaganda. You follow? You're no longer - you know, all that we have discussed. All during the day you have brought about... mind has brought about clear order, silence, no contradiction in itself during the day, by watching, listening - you follow? - attentive during the day. Then at night when it goes to sleep, what happens? The mind is completely at rest, isn't it? The brain cells are washed and made clean. Right? Then what happens?
1:12:56 Q:Can you remain alert in your sleep?
1:13:00 K:That's what I'm trying to get at. The mind then is awake, not asleep. I don't know if you... Play with it, sir! That is real attention, which operates during the day. Get it? So sleep, ordinary sleep is inattention and that inattention must produce more chaos in sleep, contradiction, dreams - you follow? - which is expressed during the daytime. The daytime carried over again through sleep. Now when there is attention during daytime, in the sense we are using the word 'attention,' then sleep is complete attention. Right? I don't know... Then sleep is a state of heightened awakening… heightened - what is the word?
1:14:32 Q:Awareness.
1:14:34 Q:Wakefulness.

K:Wakefulness. And therefore that wakeful state in sleep can touch things which no... during the day it cannot touch. I wonder if you're getting all this.
1:15:04 Q:Are you saying, Krishnaji, that if the brain doesn't have to deal with the residue of the daytime it is then free, as it were...
1:15:13 K:That's right.
1:15:14 Q:...to be open on some other level or in some other way?
1:15:20 K:That's right. You see, you know, shall I go on? Does all this interest you all this? You see, mystery, we invent a mystery. Right? You follow? And all the mystery of the gods and, you know, fairy tales, and all that is a form of mystery in a life that is completely disorderly. And therefore that mystery is an escape. I don't know if you are... Now, when the mind has put order during the day, has order, the beauty of order, the feeling of order, and silence, and no effort, then when it sleeps there is this strange attention which is without motive, without compulsion, without any contradiction, without any duality - you follow? - inattention, attention - it is completely attentive while it's asleep.
1:16:34 Q:What is the mind attending to while it is asleep?
1:16:38 K:It is not attending to anything. [Laughter] Ah, no, sir, you don't see the beauty of it. Then like water, sir - water is water. Put it into any vase, into anything, it still remains water. The same thing with the mind. We have so destroyed it. Now, go further into it. In that attentive sleepful state, [laughs] the mind is uncontaminated, is in a state of complete innocence, in the sense of a mind that is not being able to be hurt. I don't know if you... No, no, it is very important to see this, because innocency is that. The word 'innocent' means 'that which cannot be hurt.'
1:18:02 Q:Which does not know.
1:18:04 K:Does not know hurt. During the daytime the mind is either resisting not to be hurt or says, 'I am not hurt.' It's still doing all that and therefore its order is still very limited. I don't know if you're following all this. And there in sleep, attention is not attentive of something or about something - it is completely awake. Now in - shall I go on? Do you want to? - in that state there is meditation. Is all this Greek?

Q:No.
1:19:03 K:I don't know, why not? Why isn't it? [Laughter] No, sir, because this is terribly serious, this. You follow?
1:19:21 Q:It sounds like fun. Can you have it as fun while being serious?
1:19:26 K:It's fun, sir, this is the greatest joy in life. All the rest - going to cinema, sex and everything else, becomes secondary. [Laughter] Because this, you see, you touch something which is untouchable by a mind that is observing itself as it were in a mirror. There is nothing to observe. Sir, to discover that…
1:20:10 Q:Is it that in the day your mind has an identity and at night it has not?
1:20:15 K:Yes, during the day there is the 'me' which is trying to put order in the disorder, which it has created, therefore its order is still disorder. Until that is put in order, in the sense of order which is not put by... brought about by thought but by observation - which we went into, all that - then there is, when that takes place during the waking hours - you know, order, not a fraction of disorder - which means no effort at all at any level at any time - and therefore contradiction and all the rest of it. So when the mind has... when there is order during... in the wakeful hours, and when the body, when there is sleep, the mind then is attentive. Because it is so empty it is attentive, and in that attention it can touch, move, or something which here it cannot do. Therefore sleep is important. I wonder if I'm...
1:21:50 Q:You touched on mystery. Could you go on with that?
1:21:56 K:Mystery. This is a mystery, sir. What are you talking about? [Laughter]
1:22:00 Q:There was something else...
1:22:01 K:This is the greatest mystery.
1:22:15 Q:What then is the difference between the empty mind in sleep and the empty mind in wakefulness?
1:22:23 K:Sir, have you ever closed your eyes and sat very quiet, or lay very quiet, having nothing to look at, not even your thought? Have you? The mind looking at itself without any movement of thought. You know, all this implies, sir, it isn't a game, it isn't an entertainment, it's a tremendous discipline, this. Not discipline of conformity, suppression, obedience, somebody tell you to do this, but in itself there is tremendous watchfulness which brings its own order both physical and psychological. And without that just to, you know, play around with all the other stuff has no meaning.
1:23:47 Q:Can the attentiveness of the night that you're describing give us a guide for the attentiveness of the day?
1:23:54 K:Yes, sir. I don't know, sir, if you know, functioning from a centre and functioning without a centre. One is creative, one is not. What is the time, sirs?
1:24:38 Q:Twenty-five to one, sir.
1:24:41 K:Isn't it time enough? Because one could go on talking about this. It's really quite... I can't tell you how extraordinarily fascinating it is, and therefore tremendous joy in this, which is nothing to do with pleasure. My God, yes - nothing to do with pleasure.
1:25:34 Basta?