Krishnamurti - Relationship

Krishnamurti Subtitles

NY71T3 - Relationship
New York - 24 April 1971
Public Talk 3

0:33	Krishnamurti: I would like this evening if I may, to talk about several things: about relationship, what is love, and the whole human existence, involved in which is our daily living, the enormous problems one has, the conflicts, the pleasures and fears, and that most extraordinary thing one calls death.
1:42	As we were saying the other day, I think one has to understand this not as a theory, not as a speculative, entertaining concept, but rather as an actual fact, that one is the world and the world is us. We are the world and the world is each one of us. And to feel that, to really be committed to it and to nothing else, not only brings about a feeling of great responsibility and an action that must be not fragmentary, but as a whole.
3:00	I think we are apt to forget that our society, the culture in which we live, in which we have been brought up, which has conditioned us, is the result of human endeavour, human conflict, human misery, human suffering, and the two, the culture and the individual and the community is each one of us, we are not separate from it. Now, to feel this, not as an intellectual idea or a concept, but to actually feel the reality of this, one has to go into the question of what is relationship, because our life, our existence, is based on relationship. Life is a movement in relationship. And if we do not understand what is implied in relationship, we inevitably not only isolate ourselves but create a society in which human beings are divided, not only nationally, religiously, but also in themselves, and therefore project what they are in the outer world.
4:52	I do not know if one has gone into this question deeply for oneself, to find out if one can live with another in total harmony, in complete accord, so that there is no barrier, no division, a feeling of complete unity. Because relationship means, doesn't it, to be related. Not in action, not in some project, not in an ideology or a concept, to be totally united in the sense that the division, the fragmentation between individuals, between two human beings, doesn't exist at all at any level.
6:32	Unless one finds this relationship, it seems to me that when we try to bring about order in the world, theoretically or technologically, we are bound to create not only deep divisions between man and man but also we'll be unable to prevent corruption. Corruption begins in the lack of relationship. I think that is the root of corruption. Relationship as we know it now is the continuation of division between individuals. And that word individual, the root meaning of that word, means indivisible, a human being who is in himself not divided, not fragmented, is really an individual. But most of us are not individuals. We think we are and therefore there is the opposition of the individual against the community. But when one understands not only the meaning of that word in the dictionary sense but the deep sense of individuality in which there is no fragmentation at all, that is, perfect harmony between the mind, the heart, and the physical organism. It is only then that an individuality exists.
9:11	And as our present relationship with each other - however intimate or superficial, deep or passing, if we examine it closely - is fragmented. The wife or the husband or the boy or girl lives in his own cocoon, he lives in his own ambition, personal and egotistic pursuits, envious. And all these contribute to the factor of bringing about an image in himself, and therefore his relationship with another is through that image, and therefore there is no actual relationship.
10:38	I do not know if one is aware of this image one has, if you are actually aware of the structure and the nature of this image that one has built around oneself and in oneself. And each person is doing this all the time. And how can there be a relationship with another if there is the personal drive, envy, competition, greed, and all the rest of those things which are sustained and exaggerated in modern society. How can there be relationship with another if each one of us is pursuing his own personal achievement, his own personal success?
12:05	I do not know if one is at all aware of all this. We are so conditioned that we accept that as the norm, as the pattern of life, that each one must pursue his own peculiar idiosyncrasy, his own peculiar tendency, and try to establish a relationship with another in spite of this. That's what we're doing, aren't we, if one examines oneself closely, isn't that what one is doing, isn't that what you're all doing? Though you may be married, you go to the office or to the factory, whatever you do during the whole of the day you pursue that, and she in her house, with her own troubles, with her own vanities, all that happens. Where is the relationship between those two human beings? Is it in bed, in sex? And is this relationship so superficial, so limited, so circumscribed, is that not in itself corruption?
14:21	Probably you will ask how is one then to live if you do not go to the office, pursue your own particular ambition, envy, your own desire to achieve and attain, if one doesn't do all those things, what is one to do? I think that's a wrong question altogether, don't you? Because we are concerned, aren't we, in bringing about a radical change in the whole structure of the mind. Because the crisis is not in the outer world but the crisis is in consciousness itself. And until we understand this crisis, not superficially, not according to some philosopher, some teacher, but actually understand it for ourselves deeply by looking into it, examining it, we shall not be able to bring about a change. And we are concerned with psychological revolution. The revolution can only take place when there is the right kind of relationship between human beings.
16:23	How is such a relationship to be brought about? First, the problem is clear, isn't it? If I'm married I have a responsibility, children, etc. I go to the office or to some work and spend my whole day there. Please, share this problem with me, will you? It's your problem, not my problem. It's your life, not my life. It's your sorrow, your trouble, your anxiety, your guilt, the great weight of sorrow, that's one's life, it is that, this battle. If you listen merely to a description, then you'll find that you're merely swimming on the surface and not resolving any problem at all. So as it is actually your problem, and the speaker is merely describing the problem, knowing that the description is not the described, and to share this problem together. Which is, how can human beings, you and I, find in all this turmoil, mess, hatred, war, destruction, pollution, these terrible things that are going on in the world, how can we find right relationship?
19:14	To find that out, it seems to me, one must examine actually what is taking place, see what actually is, not what we'd like to think it should be, or try to change our relationship to a future concept, but actually observe what it is now. And in observing what it is now, the fact, the truth, the actuality of it, then there is a possibility of changing that. As we said the other day, again, when there is a possibility then there is great energy. What dissipates energy is the idea that it is not possible to change.
20:29	So we must look at our relationship as it is now, actual, every day. And in observing what it is then we shall discover how to bring about a change in that actuality. So we are describing what actually is, which is, each one lives in his own world, in his world of ambition, greed, fear, the desire to succeed, etc., you know what is going on. We meet each other, husband and wife, or a boy and a girl, in bed. And that's what we call love, leading separate lives, isolated, build a wall of resistance around ourselves, self-centred activity, each one is seeking security psychologically, each one depending on the other for comfort, for pleasure, for companionship, because each one is so deeply lonely, each one demanding to be loved, to be cherished, each one trying to dominate the other.
23:01	Seeing this - which is fairly observable, you can see it for yourself if you observe yourself - is there any kind of relationship at all? And because there is no relationship between two human beings, though they may have children, house, etc., actually they're not related. If they have a common project together, that project sustains them, holds them together, but that's not relationship.
24:02	Seeing all this, and seeing that if there is no relationship between two human beings then corruption begins, not in the outward structure of society, the pollution in the outer phenomenon, but pollution, corruption, destruction begins when human beings have actually no relationship at all, as you haven't. You may hold the hand of another, kiss each other, sleep together, but actually when you observe very closely, is there any relationship at all? Which means to be related, not dependent on each other, not escape from your loneliness through another, not try to find comfort, companionship, through another. When you do seek comfort, dependence through another, can there be any kind of relationship, or you are using each other. We are not being cynical but actually observing what is, and that's not cynicism. So, to find out what is relationship, what it is to actually be related to another, one must understand this question of loneliness. Because most of us are terribly lonely. The older we grow the more lonely we become, especially in this country. Have you noticed the old people, what they're like? Have you noticed their escapes, their amusement? They've worked all their life and they want to escape into some kind of entertainment.
27:17	And to see and to find out a way of living in which we don't use another, psychologically, emotionally, not depend on another, not use another as a means of escape from your own tortures, from your own despairs, from your own loneliness.
28:03	To understand it, that is, to understand what it means to be lonely. Have you ever been lonely? Do you know what it means? That you have no relationship with another, completely isolated. You may be with your family, in a crowd or in the office, wherever you are, this thing suddenly comes upon you, complete sense of utter loneliness with its despair. And until you solve that completely, your relationship becomes a means of escape and therefore it leads to corruption, leads to misery. So, how to understand this loneliness, this sense of complete isolation? To understand it one has to look at our own life. Isn't every action that you're doing a self-centred activity? You may occasionally be charitable, occasionally generous, do something without any motive, those are rare occasions. But actually, the despair can never be dissolved through escape but by observing it.
30:17	So we'll come back to this question, which is how to observe, how to observe ourselves so that in that observation there is no conflict at all. Because conflict is corruption, conflict is a waste of energy, conflict is the battle of our life, from the moment we are born until we die. And is it possible to live without a single moment of conflict? And to do that, to find out for ourselves, one has to learn how to observe, how to observe our whole movement. We went into that the other day, there is observation which becomes harmonious, which is true, when the observer is not, but only observation. We went into that so I won't go into it again because it would be rather a waste of time, because there are so many things to talk about.
31:51	When there is no relationship can there be love? We talk about it. And love, as we know it, is related to sex and pleasure, isn't it? No? Some of you say no. Then when you say no, then you must be without ambition, then there must be no competition, then there must be no division as you and me, we and they, there must be no division of nationality, no division in belief, or the division brought about by belief, division brought about by knowledge, then only, and more, you can say you love. But for most people love is related to sex and pleasure, and all the travail that comes with it, jealousy, envy, antagonisms, you know what happens between man and woman. When that relationship is not true, real, deep, completely harmonious, then how can you have in the world peace? How can there be then an end to war?
34:27	So relationship is one of the most, or rather the most important thing in life. That means to understand what love is. Surely one comes upon it, strangely, without asking for it, when you find out for yourself what it is not, what love is not, then you know what love is, not theoretically, not intellectually or verbally, but when you realise actually what it is not. Which is, a mind that is competitive, ambitious, a mind that is striving, comparing, imitating, such a mind cannot possibly love.
35:52	So can you, living in this world, live completely without ambition, completely never comparing yourself with another, because the moment you compare, then there is conflict, then there is envy, then there is ambition, then there is the desire to achieve, to go beyond the other. Do listen to all this, it's your life we are talking about.
36:42	Can a mind and a heart, that is, that remembers the hurts, the insults, the things that have made it sensitive, dull, can such a mind and a heart know what love is?
37:17	Is love pleasure? And yet that is what we are pursuing, consciously or unconsciously. Our gods are the result of our pleasure, our beliefs, our social structure, the morality of society, which is essentially immoral, is the result of our pursuit for pleasure. And when you say, I love somebody, is it love? That means no separation, no domination, no self-centred activity. And to find out what it is, one must deny all this, deny in the sense, see the falseness of it. When you see something false which you have accepted as true, as natural, as human, once you see that, then one can never go back to it. When you see a dangerous snake or a dangerous animal, never play with it anymore, never come near it. Similarly, when you see that love is none of these things, actually see it, feel it, observe it, chew it, live with it, be committed to it totally, then you know what love is, then you will know what compassion is, which means passion for everyone. And we have no passion, we have lust, we have pleasure.
40:07	And the word passion comes from the root of sorrow. We have all had sorrow of some kind or another, losing somebody, the sorrow of self pity, the sorrow of the human race, both collective and personal, - we know what sorrow is - the death of someone whom you consider that you have loved. And when we remain with that sorrow totally, without any escape, without trying to rationalise it, without trying to escape from it through any form, through words or through action, when you totally remain with it, completely, without any movement of thought, then you will find out of that sorrow, comes passion. Then that passion has the quality of love, because love has no sorrow.
42:03	When one understands this whole question of existence, the conflicts, the battles, the life that one leads, so empty, so meaningless, and the intellectuals try to give a meaning to life, a significance to life. And we also want to find significance to life, because life has no meaning as it is lived, has it? The constant struggle, the endless work, the misery, the suffering, the travail that one goes through in life, all that has no meaning actually, we go through it as a habit. But to find out what the significance of this existence is, one must also understand the significance of death, because living and dying are together, they're not two separate things.
43:52	So one must enquire what it means to die, because that's part of our living, not something in the distant future to be avoided, only to be faced when one is desperately ill, in old age or an accident, or die on a battlefield. So it is part of our life, our daily life, as it is part of our daily life to live without a single breath of conflict, it's part of our life to find out what it means to love. That is also a part of our existence, the whole field of our existence is not merely to end in death. So one must understand it.
45:33	How do we understand what death is? Can you understand it when you are dying, at the last moment, unconscious? Probably the way you have lived, the strains, the emotional struggles, the ambitions, the drive, all that makes one at the last moment incapable of clear perception. Then there is old age and the fear of old age, the deterioration of the mind, and all the rest of it. So, one has to understand what death is now, not tomorrow. If you observe, thought doesn't want to think about it. It'll think about all the things it will do tomorrow, building the bridges, how to invent new things, better bathrooms, and all the rest thought can think about, but it doesn't want to think about death, because it doesn't know what it means. And the meaning of death, is that to be found through the process of thought? Are we sharing together all this? Please do share it. When we share it then we will begin to see the beauty of all this. But if you sit there and let the speaker go on, merely listening to his words, then we don't share together. Sharing together implies a certain quality of care, attention, affection, love. And death is a tremendous problem. And the young people may say, why do you bother about it? Because it's part of their life, it is part of their life to understand celibacy, not just, why do you talk about celibacy? That's for the old fogeys, that's for the stupid monks. But that also has been a problem for human beings, not invented by the priests, or very recent Catholics, it has been a problem for five thousand years, what it means to be celibate.
49:42	And also, that's part of life, can the mind be completely chaste? And not being able to find out how to live a chaste life, one takes vows of celibacy and goes through the tortures, the biological tortures. That is not celibacy. Celibacy is something entirely different. It is to have a mind that is free from all image, from all knowledge, which means understanding the whole process of pleasure and fear, which we went into the other day.
50:51	So similarly, one has to understand this thing called death. How do you proceed to understand something of which you are terribly frightened? Aren't most of us frightened of death? Or say, Thank God I'm going to die, I've had enough of this life with all the misery of it, the confusion, the shoddiness of it, the petty wrangles, the butchery, the brutality, the violence, all the mechanical things in which one is caught, thank God all this will end. That's not an answer. Or to rationalise death or to believe in some incarnation, as the whole Asiatic world does - reincarnation. To go into that, to find out what reincarnation means, which is to incarnate next life, to be born next life, you, to be born in a future existence. And to find out that, you must find out what you are now. What are you now, if you believe in reincarnation, what are you now? Lot of words, lot of experiences, knowledge, conditioned by various cultures, all the identifications of your life, your furniture, your house, your bank account, your experience of pleasure and pain, that's what you are, aren't you, remembrance of things, the failures, the hopes, the despairs, all that you are now. And that is going to be born next life. Lovely idea, isn't it?
53:51	Or you think there is a permanent soul, a permanent entity in you. Is there anything permanent in you? The moment you say there is a permanent soul, permanent entity, that entity is the result of your thinking, or the result of your hope, because there is so much insecurity, everything is transient, in a flux, in a movement. So when you say there is something permanent, that permanency is the result of your thinking. And thought is of the past. Thought is never free, it can invent anything it likes.
54:59	So, if you believe in the future birth, then you must know that the future is conditioned by the way you live now, what you do now, what you think, what your acts are, the way of your ethics. So what you are now, what you do now, matters tremendously. But those people who believe in the future birth don't give a pin what happens now, just a matter of belief.
55:59	How do you find out what death means? Living with vitality, with energy, healthy, not when you're insane or unbalanced or ill, not at the last moment - now. How do you find out, knowing the organism will inevitably wear out? Like all machinery it must wear out, but unfortunately our machinery we use so disrespectfully, don't we? So, how do you find out what it means to die, knowing the physical organism comes to an end? Have you ever thought about this? Thought - you can't think about it - have you ever experimented with this, to find out what it means to die psychologically, inwardly. Not how to find immortality, because eternity, that which is timeless is now, not in some distant future. And to enquire into that one must understand the whole problem of time, not only the chronological time by the watch but the time that thought has invented as a gradual process of change.
58:31	So how does one find this strange thing that we'll all have to meet one day or another, how do you find out? Can one die psychologically today, die to everything that you have known? Take, for instance, one thing, to die to your pleasure, die to your attachment, your dependence, end it without arguing, without rationalising, without trying to find ways and means of avoiding it. You've understood my question? Not quite? You know what it means to die, not physically but psychologically, inwardly? Which means, to put an end to that which has continuity. You understand this? To put an end to your ambition, because that's what's going to happen when you die, won't it? You can't carry it over and sit next to God. When you die actually, you have to end so many things, without any argument. You can't say to death, hold on a minute, let me finish my job, let me finish my book, the things which I have not done, let me heal the hurts which I have given to others, you have no time.
1:01:19	So to find out, to live a life now, today, in which there is always an ending, an ending to everything that you began, not your office, of course. But inwardly, to end all the knowledge that you have gathered, knowledge being your experience, your memories, your hurts, the pain, the comparative way of living, comparing ourselves always with somebody else. To end all that, every day, so that your mind the next day is fresh and young, and such a mind can never be hurt. That is innocency.
1:02:42	So one has to find out for oneself what it means to die, and therefore no fear, therefore every day is a new day, and I really mean this. One can do this, so that your mind and your eyes see life as something totally new. And that is eternity, that is the quality of a mind that has come upon this timeless state, because it has known what it means to die every day to everything that it has collected during the day. Then in that there is love, surely. Love is something totally new every day. But pleasure is not, pleasure has a continuity. Love is always new and therefore it is its own eternity.
1:04:24	Do you want to ask any questions?
1:04:31	Questioner: Supposing through complete objective self-observation I find that I am greedy, sensual, selfish and all that, then how can I know whether this kind of living is good or bad unless I already have some preconceptions of the good? And if I have those preconceptions, they can be derived from self-observation.
1:05:06	K: Quite right.
1:05:07	Q: Then I also find another difficulty, you seem to believe in sharing, but at the same time you say that two lovers or a husband and wife should not base their love on comfort, comforting each other. I don't see anything wrong in comforting each other, that is sharing.
1:05:30	K: Right. The gentleman asks, one must have a concept of the good, otherwise why should one give up all this ambition, greed and envy, etc. That's part of the first question. You must have a concept of what is good, a formula of what is good. You can have a formula or a concept of what is better, but can you have a concept of what is good?
1:06:36	Q: Yes, I think so.
1:06:39	K: The gentleman says he thinks so. Can thought produce what is good?
1:06:51	Q: No, I meant the conception of such good.
1:06:54	K: Yes, the conception of good is the product of thought, otherwise how can you conceive what is good?
1:07:06	Q: But the conceptions cannot be derived from our self-observation.
1:07:10	K: I'm just pointing that out. Why should you have a concept of the good at all?
1:07:17	Q: Then how do I know whether my living is good or bad?
1:07:22	K: Then how do I know whether my living is good or bad. Just listen to the question. If I have no concept of what is good, how do I know what is good or bad in my life? Don't we know what conflict is? Do I have to have a concept of non-conflict before I understand conflict, before I am aware of conflict? I know what conflict is: the struggle, the pain, conflict. Don't I know that, without knowing a state where there is no conflict? And when I formulate what is good, I will formulate it according to my conditioning. According to my way of thinking, feeling, my peculiar idiosyncrasy, etc., cultural conditioning. And is the good to be projected by thought, and will thought then tell me what is good and bad in my life? Or goodness has nothing whatsoever to do with thought or with formula. Where does goodness flower, blossom? Do tell me. In the concept, in some future idea, in some ideal? That is, in the future. A concept means a future, tomorrow. It may be very far away or very close but it's still in time. And when you have a concept projected by thought, and thought being the response of memory, response of accumulated knowledge, depending on the culture in which you have lived, and do you find that goodness in the future, created by thought, or do you find it when you begin to understand conflict, pain, sorrow?
1:10:52	So in the understanding of what is, not comparing what is with what should be, but actually what is, then in that understanding flowers goodness. Surely goodness has nothing whatsoever to do with thought, has it? Has love got anything to do with thought? Can you cultivate love by saying, my ideal of love is that, formulate it beautifully, and cultivate it? Do you know what happens when you cultivate love? You're not loving. You will think you will have love on some future date, in the meantime you are being violent, etc. So, is goodness the product of thought, is love the product of experience, of knowledge? And the second question?
1:12:24	Q: The second question was about sharing in relation to comfort.
1:12:32	K: Sharing. Companionship. What do you share? What are we sharing now? We talked about death, we talked about love, we talked about the necessity of total revolution, psychologically, complete change, not live in the old pattern of formulas, of struggle, pain, imitation, conformity, etc., which man has lived in for millennia, and produced this marvellous, messy world. We've talked about death, how do we share that thing together? Share the understanding of it, not the verbal statements of it, not the description of it, not the explanation of it, which are all verbal, but share, what does that mean? Share the understanding, share the truth of it. The truth which comes with the understanding of this. So, what does understanding mean? When do you understand? You tell me something which is serious, which is vital, which is relevant, which is important, and I listen to it, I listen to it completely, because it's vital to me. And to listen so vitally my mind must be quiet. If I am chattering, if I am looking somewhere else, if I am comparing what you are saying with what I know, my mind is not quiet. It's only when my mind is quiet and listens completely, then there is understanding, the understanding of the truth of the thing. That we share together, otherwise we can't share. We can't share the words, we can only share the truth of something, when you and I see the truth of something. And that can be seen only when your mind is totally committed to the observation.
1:16:11	To share with a friend the beauty of a sunset, to see the lovely hills and the shadows and the moonlight, how do you share it, by telling him, do look at that marvellous hill? You may say it, but is that sharing? When do you actually share something? Which means to share something with another, both of them must have the same intensity at the same time, at the same level. Otherwise you can't share, can you? You must both have the common interest with the same intensity at the same level, with the same passion, otherwise how can you share something? You can share a piece of bread, I'll give you half a bread, but that's not what we're talking about.
1:17:44	And to see together, which is, sharing together, we must both of us see, not agree or disagree but see together what actually is, not interpret it according to my stupid conditioning or your conditioning, but see together what it is. And to see together one must be free to observe, one must be free to listen. And that means no prejudice, I must cease to be a Hindu totally. Then only with that quality of love there is sharing.
1:18:55	Q: How can one quiet the mind or free the mind from interruptions of the past?
1:19:02	K: You've understood the question so I won't repeat it. I don't know if there is time to go into this. You cannot quieten the mind, full stop. Those are tricks. You can take a pill and make the mind quiet. You cannot, absolutely, make the mind quiet, because you are the mind. Right? You can't say, I will make my mind quiet. Therefore one has to understand what meditation is, actually, not what other people say mediation is, that's stupid, but to find out whether the mind can ever be quiet, not how to make the mind quiet. Therefore one has to go into this whole question of knowledge and whether the mind, which includes the brain, whether the brain cells, which are loaded with all the past memories, whether those brain cells can be absolutely quiet, and come into function when necessary and when not necessary be completely and wholly quiet. Perhaps we can talk about that tomorrow when we discuss what meditation is, shall we? Because it would take too long.
1:21:41	Q: Sir, I have a question.
1:21:43	K: Beg your pardon?
1:21:49	Q: Sir, I have a question. You were talking about the sharing of experience. Well, I believe in the sharing of the experience of sex. And I would like to know what you feel about living a life in a state of marriage as opposed to living a life of promiscuity.
1:22:16	K: I haven't understood your question, sir. I am sorry. Would you speak a little clearer or make it shorter?
1:22:28	Q: Well, I believe in sharing the experience of sex. Like you share the experience of a sunset with someone, well, you share the experience of sex also with someone. So, I would like to know, do you believe in sharing a life in the state of a marriage?
1:22:59	K: Have you understood? I don't quite – sharing sex? But you are sharing sex, aren't you? I don't understand the question.
1:23:12	K: What, madame?
1:23:14	Q: Is celibacy a condition of love?
1:23:18	K: What, sir? Q: May I ask a question?
1:23:21	K: You can ask anything you like.
1:23:27	Q: May I ask a question from the balcony, sir?
1:23:37	K: Go ahead, sir.
1:23:38	Q: Why has time come into existence? Is it the rhythm of cosmic love?
1:23:47	K: Oh no, sir. I can't tell you, better ask the scientists. No, just listen, sir. Please, if I may most respectfully suggest, don't ask theoretical questions.
1:24:11	Q: Sir, when you speak of relationships, you speak always of a man and a woman, or a girl and a boy. Would the same things you say about relationships also apply to a man and a man, or a woman and a woman?
1:24:25	K: Homosexuality.
1:24:27	Q: If you wish to give that name, yes.
1:24:34	K: When we are talking about love, whether it's man-man, woman-woman or man-woman, we're not talking of a particular kind of relationship. We're talking about the whole movement of relationship, not with one or two, the whole sense of relationship. Don't you know what it means to be related to the world, when you feel you are the world? Not as an idea, that's appalling, but actually to feel that you are responsible, that you are committed to this responsibility. And that's the only commitment, not committed through bombs or committed to a particular activity but to feel that you are the world and the world is you. Unless you change completely, radically, bring about a total mutation in yourself, do what you will outwardly, there will be no peace for man. If you feel that in your blood, then your questions will be related entirely to the present and bringing about a change in the present, not in some speculative, idiotic ideals. Sorry.
1:26:28	Q: The last time we were together you were telling us that if someone has a painful experience and it's not fully faced or it's avoided, it goes into the unconscious as a fragment. How are we to free ourselves from these fragments of painful and fearful experiences so that the past won't have a grip on us?
1:26:46	K: How does one free oneself from this conditioning?
1:26:53	Q: Yes, painful experiences.
1:26:56	K: Yes, that is conditioning. Is it time to stop? Q: No.
1:27:10	K: How does one free oneself from this conditioning. Good enough, let's take that. How do I free myself from my conditioning, of a culture in which I was born, as a Hindu, as a Brahmin, etc., or as a Catholic, Protestant or a Baptist and God knows what else. How do I free myself from this vast propaganda? First, I must be aware of it that I am conditioned. Not somebody tells me that I am conditioned. You understand the difference? If somebody tells me I'm hungry, that's something different from actually being hungry. So, I must be aware of my conditioning, which means I must be aware of my conditioning not only superficially but at the deeper levels. That is, I must be aware totally. First of all, to be so aware means that I am not trying to go beyond the conditioning. I am not trying to be free of the conditioning. I must see it as it actually is, not bring in another element which is wanting to be free, because that is an escape from actuality. You are following this? So, I must be aware. What does that mean? Aware totally, not partially, of my conditioning as a Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, communist, and all that. That means my mind must be highly sensitive, otherwise I can't be aware, can I, sensitive? That means I must observe very closely everything around me, the colour, the depth, the quality of people, things around me. And I must also be aware without any choice what actually is my conditioning. Can you do that? Not trying to interpret it, not trying to change it, not trying to go beyond it or try to be free of it, just to be totally aware of it. Do you want me to go into it?
1:30:58	K: You have time and the energy?
1:31:00	A: Yes.
1:31:01	K: Don't clap, it's all right, I'll go on. When you observe a tree, there is between you and the tree, time and space, isn't there? And there is also knowledge about the tree, the botanical knowledge of the tree, the distance between you and the tree, which is time, and the separation which comes through knowledge of the tree. To look at that tree without knowledge, without the time quality. Which doesn't mean identifying yourself with the tree. To do that, that is, to observe a tree so attentively that the boundaries of time don't come into it at all. The boundaries of time come in only when you have knowledge about the tree. You see that? Am I complicating it?
1:32:39	Q: No.
1:32:41	Q: Yes.
1:32:52	K: I'll bring it nearer. To look at your wife or your friend or your boy, girl, or your man and man, or whatever it is - please don't waste time laughing, it isn't worth it - to look without the image. The image is the past, isn't it? The past which has been put together by thought, as nagging, bullying, dominating, insult, the images that one builds about another, the pleasure, and all that. Now, to look at another without the image. It is the image that separates, it's the image that gives distance, the time. So, the image is the knowledge which you have accumulated as the past. Now, to look without that image, to look at that tree or the flower or the cloud or the wife or the husband, the boy, and so on, man and man, to look without the image. If you can do that then you can observe your conditioning totally. Then you look at it with a mind that is not spotted by the past, and therefore the mind itself is free of the conditioning. To look at myself, we generally do as an observer looking at the observed, myself as the observed and the observer looking at it. The observer is the knowledge, is the past, is the time, the accumulated experiences. He separates himself from the thing observed. Now, to look without the observer. And you do this. You do this when you are completely attentive. You know what it means to be attentive? Don't go to school to learn to be attentive. To be attentive here, it means to listen without any interpretation, without any judgment, just to listen. When you are so listening there is no boundary. There is no you listening, there is only a state of listening. So when you observe your conditioning, the conditioning exists only in the observer, not in the observed. Right? So to look without the observer, without the me, his fears, his anxieties, etc., then you will see, if you so look, you enter into a totally different dimension.