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OJ49T9 - Ideals and ambition
Ojai, California - 13 August 1949
Public Talk 9



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s 9th public talk in Ojai, California, 1949.
0:09 Krishnamurti: I think I’ll answer questions only this evening instead of the usual preliminary talk.
0:20 And before answering these questions I’d like to point out one or two things about these questions and answers.
0:30 First of all, most of us are so inclined to believe.
0:44 The mind is so clever to persuade us to think differently, or give us a new point of view, or make us believe in things that are not fundamentally true.
1:02 Now, in answering these questions, I’d like to say that I’m not persuading you to think along my particular lines.
1:11 In answering these questions we are trying to find out the right answer together.
1:18 I’m not answering them for you to just accept or deny.
1:25 We are going to find out together what is true, and that requires an open mind, an intelligent mind, an inquiring mind, an alert mind, not merely a mind that is so prejudiced that it denies, or so eager that it accepts.
1:52 And in answering these questions, one fundamental thing must be borne in mind: it is that they are merely a reflection of the way of our own thinking, to reveal to us what we think.
2:16 They should act as a mirror in which we perceive ourselves.
2:23 And after all, these discussions and these talks, have been only for one purpose, and that is the pursuit of self-knowledge because, as I said, it’s only in knowing ourselves first, deeply, profoundly, not superficially, that we can know truth.
2:44 And it is extremely arduous to know ourselves deeply, not superficially.
2:51 And it is not a matter of time but a question of intensity, a question of direct perception and experience that is important.
3:06 And these discussions and talks are meant for that, so that each one of us experiences directly whatever is being discussed and not merely on the verbal level.
3:25 And also it’s important to bear in mind that each of us must find the truth; each of us must be the master and the pupil, and that requires a great deal of humility, not assurance either from me or denial from me, or mere acceptance.
4:03 So in answering these questions, please bear all this in mind, because all of us have innumerable problems.
4:25 Life is not very pleasant or simple, it’s very complex, and we can only understand it when we understand the whole total process.
4:38 And the total process is in us, not outside of us, Therefore it’s important to understand ourselves.
4:46 Then we can deal with the things that we confront, that we face every day, and the influences that are constantly impinging upon us.
4:59 1ST QUESTIO

N: We have a collection of ideals, and the choice is wide.
5:11 We try to realize them through various methods. This is a long and time-taking way. In listening to you, I feel that the distinction or space between ideal and practice is illusory.
5:28 Is this so? We have a collection of ideals, and the choice is wide. We try to realize them through various methods. This is a long and time-taking way. In listening to you, I feel that the distinction or space between ideal and practice is illusory.
5:55 Is this so? First of all, are we aware, each one of us, that we have ideals, and that, having these ideals, we are trying to practice them or live up to them, or approximate ourselves with them?
6:36 Take the question of violence: we have ideals of non-violence, and we try to practice that ideal in our daily life - or take any other ideal that you have.
7:09 We are trying to live up to them all the time, practice them if you are serious and not merely living on the verbal level.
7:36 And that takes time, a constant application, a series of failures and so on.
7:49 So why do we have ideals - any collection of them - why do we have them?
8:02 Do they better our life? And is virtue to be gained through a constant disciplining?
8:15 Is virtue a result, or is it something quite different?
8:28 Take humility: can you practice humility?
8:35 Or does humility come into being when the self is not important, when the me and the mine do not predominate?
9:05 But if we make that into an ideal, that the self should not predominate, then arises the question how to come to that state.
9:22 So surely this whole process is very complicated and unreal, is it not?
9:33 There must be a different approach to this problem, surely.
9:43 Is not a collection of ideals an escape?
9:53 Thus it gives us time to play with it; we say, ‘I’m practicing it, I’m disciplining myself; one day I will be that.
10:10 It is necessary to go slowly, to evolve towards it.’ You know, all the various explanations that we give.
10:25 Now, is there a different approach?
10:42 Because we can see that way, this constant disciplining towards an ideal, approximating oneself towards an ideal, does not really bring about the solution of the problem.
11:06 We are no more kindly; we are not less violent; we may be superficially, not fundamentally.
11:25 So how is one then to be non-greedy without having the ideal of non-greed?
11:45 Take, for example, I’m greedy, or I’m mean or angry, any of these things, and the ordinary process is to have an ideal and approximate myself to that ideal all the time, practice, discipline, and so on.
12:06 Does that free me from greed, from anger, from violence?
12:29 What will free me from violence is to be free from my desire to be something, from my desire to gain something, to protect something, to achieve a result and so on.
12:57 So our difficulty is, is it not, that having these ideals, this constant desire to become something, to be something, is really the crux of the matter.
13:40 After all, greed or anger is one of the expressions of the me, the self, the I, and as long as that I remains, anger will continue.
13:55 And merely to discipline it to function a certain way does not free it from anger, so surely this process only emphasizes the self, the me, does it not?
14:31 Now, if I realize that I am angry or greedy, need I go through all the disciplinary process in order to be free from it?
14:49 Is there not a different approach to it, different way of tackling it?
15:04 I can only tackle it differently when I no longer take pleasure in sensation.
15:11 Anger gives me a sensation of pleasure, doesn’t it, afterwards, though I may dislike it. There is an excitement involved in it; it’s a release. So the first thing, it seems to me, is to be aware of this process, that the ideal does not eradicate.
15:38 It’s merely a form of postponement. That is, to understand something I must give full attention.
15:53 And an ideal is merely a distraction from my giving that feeling or that quality full attention at the given time.
16:04 If I’m fully aware, give my full attention to the quality I call greed, without the distraction of an ideal, then am I not in a position to understand it and so dissolve it?
16:32 You see, we are so accustomed to postponement, and ideals help us to postpone.
16:43 But if we can for the time being put away all those because we understand the escapes, a postponing quality of an ideal, and face the thing as is, directly, immediately, give our full attention to it, then surely there is a possibility of transforming it.
17:05 You see, if I realize that I’m violent, if I’m aware of it, and not try to transform it, not try to become non-violent but merely be aware of it, then I am… because my attention is fully given to it, then it opens up the various implications of violence, and therefore there is an inward transformation, surely.
18:03 But if I practice non-violence or non-greed, or what you will, then I am postponing, am I not, from giving my attention to what is, which is greed or violence.
18:19 You see, most of us have ideals in order either as a means of postponing, or we want to be something, we want to achieve a result.
18:36 In the very desire to become the ideal, surely there is violence involved.
18:47 In the very becoming of something, of myself towards a goal, surely violence is involved, is it not?
18:55 You see, we all want to be something. We want to be happy, we want to be more beautiful, we want to be more virtuous, we want to be something more and more and more.
19:12 Surely in the very desire for something more there is violence involved, there is greed involved.
19:36 But if we can look at that problem, that the more I want to be, the more conflict, and therefore the ideal merely helps me to increase my conflict; which doesn’t mean I’m satisfied with what I am; on the contrary.
20:13 As long as I want to be something more, there must be conflict, there must be pain, there must be anger, violence.
20:22 If one really feels that profoundly, is affected by that, sees that, aware of it, then I’m able to deal with the problem immediately, without having a collection of ideals to encourage me to be this or that.
21:02 Then my action is immediate, my relationship with it is direct.
21:12 And also in it arises another problem, which is, the experiencer and the experience with most of us are two different states or processes.
21:41 The ideal and myself are two different states. I want to become that, therefore the I, the experiencer, the thinker, is different from thought.
21:55 Is that so? Is the thinker different from thought? Or is there only thought which creates the thinker?
22:17 So as long as I am separate from the thought, then I can manipulate thought, I can change it, transform it, but is the I who is operating on a thought different from thought?
22:48 Surely they are a joint phenomenon, are they not?
23:01 The thinker and the thought are one, not separate. When one is angry, one is angry; there is a state… there is an integrated feeling which we term as anger.
23:18 Then I say, ‘I am angry,’ therefore I separate myself from that anger, and then I can operate on that anger, do something about it.
23:30 But if I realize that I am angry, that I am that quality itself, the quality is not separable from me, surely when I experience that then there is quite a different action, quite a different approach.
23:58 Now we separate ourselves from the thought, from the feeling, from the quality, therefore the I is a separate entity from the quality, and therefore the I can operate on the quality.
24:19 But the quality is not different from the I, from the thinker.
24:38 And when there is that integrated experience of the thinker and the thought as one, not separate, then surely there is quite a different approach and a reaction, response.
25:04 Again, you experiment with this and you will see. Because at the moment of experiencing, there is neither the experiencer nor the experience.
25:16 It’s only as you come out of that… as the experiencing fades, then there is the experiencer and the experience.
25:32 Then the experiencer says, ‘I like that’, or, ‘I do not like it. I want more of it’, or, ‘I want the less of it.’ Then he wants to cultivate the ideal, to become the ideal.
25:55 But if the thinker is the thought and not two separate processes, then his whole attitude is transformed, is it not?
26:18 Then there is quite a different response with regard to thought; then there is no longer approximating thought to an ideal or getting rid of thought.
26:33 Then there is no maker of effort. And I think this is really very important to discover this for oneself, to experience this directly - not because I say so or someone else says so - to come to this experience that the thinker is the thought.
27:03 Don’t let that become a new jargon, a new set of words which we use.
27:18 Through verbalization we don’t experience.
27:26 We merely have sensations, and sensations are not experience. And if one can be aware of that process, of this joint phenomenon, then I think this question will be understood much more profoundly than merely having ideals or no ideals, which is really beside the point.
28:04 If I am my thoughts, and my thoughts are not different from me, then there is no maker of effort, is there?
28:23 Then I do not become that.
28:37 Then I’m no longer cultivating virtue. Not that I am virtuous. Moment I am conscious that I’m virtuous, I’m not virtuous. Moment I am conscious that I am humble, surely humility ceases.
29:05 So if we can understand the maker of effort - which is the me becoming, the becoming of self-projected demands, desires, are the same as myself - then, surely, there is a radical transformation in my whole outlook.
29:42 You see, that’s why it is important to have right meditation, to know what right meditation means.
29:56 Not the approximation; not trying to reach out somewhere and get something; not to attain, not to concentrate, not to develop certain qualities and so on - which we discussed previously - but right meditation is the understanding of this whole process of the me, of the self.
30:28 Because, as I said, right meditation is self-knowledge, and without meditation one cannot find out what the process of the self is.
30:47 And there is no meditator to meditate something upon.
30:59 Then meditation is the experiencing of that which is: the total process of the thinker as the thought.
31:10 Then only is there a possibility of really making the mind quiet.
31:27 Then it is possible to discover if there is something beyond the mind. Not a verbal assertion that there is or that there is not, that there is atman, the soul, or what…
31:41 We’re not discussing those things. Going beyond all verbal expression.
31:54 Only when the mind is quiet - not the higher level, the upper-level mind, but the whole content of the mind quiet, whole consciousness is quiet.
32:07 But there is no quietness if there is a maker of effort.
32:15 And there will be the maker, the will of action as long as he thinks he is separate from the thought.
32:24 And this requires a great deal of going into, thinking it out, not just trying to experience it superficially and sensationally.
32:45 Then when one has that experience, then becoming the ideal is illusory; it has no meaning at all then.
33:00 Then it’s altogether a wrong approach. Then one sees this whole process of becoming.
33:14 The more, the greater has nothing to do with reality.
33:28 Reality comes into being only when the mind is completely quiet, when there is no effort.
33:44 And virtue is a state of that freedom in which there is no making an effort, therefore virtue is a state in which effort has completely ceased.
34:05 But if you make an effort to become virtuous, surely it’s no longer virtue, is it?
34:20 So as long as we do not understand, we do not experience that the thinker and the thought are one, then all these problems exist.
34:37 But the moment we experience that, the maker of effort comes to an end.
34:45 To experience that, one must be completely aware of the process of one’s own thinking and feeling, the desire to become.
35:02 And that’s why it’s important, if one really is seeking reality, or God, or what you will, that this whole mentality of climbing, evolving, growing, achieving, must come to an end.
35:32 We are much too worldly.
35:43 We carry that mentality of the clerk becoming the boss, the foreman becoming the executive - with that mentality we approach reality.
36:03 We think we will do the same thing, climb the ladder of success.
36:12 I’m afraid it cannot be done that way. If you do, you live in the world of illusion, and therefore conflict, pain, misery and strife.
36:31 But if we discard all such mentality, such thoughts, such points of view, then one becomes really humble - one is, not becomes - and then there is a possibility of having a direct experience of reality, which alone will dissolve all our problems; not our cunning efforts, not our great intellect, not deep and wide knowledge.
37:15 2ND QUESTIO

N: I am free from ambition. Is there something wrong with me? (Laughter) K: I am free from ambition. Is there something wrong with me? If you are conscious that you are free from ambition, then there is something wrong. (Laughter) K: Then one becomes smug, respectable, unimaginative, thoughtless.
37:54 Why should you be free from ambition?
38:07 And how do you know you are free from ambition? You know, surely to be… to have the desire to be free from something is the beginning of illusion, is it not; is ignorance.
38:35 You see, we find ambition painful; or you want to be something and you have failed, and so you now say, ‘It’s too painful, I’ll get rid of it.’ If you succeeded in your ambition, if you fulfilled in the thing which you want to be, then this problem wouldn’t arise, but not succeeding, seeing there is no fulfilment there, you discard it and so you condemn ambition.
39:25 Obviously ambition is unworthy. A man who is ambitious surely cannot find reality.
39:37 He may become the president of some club, or some society, or some country, but surely he is not seeking reality.
39:58 But the difficulty is, with most of us, if we don’t succeed in what we want, we either become bitter, cynical, or we try to become spiritual.
40:17 And so we say, ‘That’s a wrong thing to do.’ We discard it.
40:28 But our mentality is the same; we may not succeed in the world and be a great person there, but spiritually we want to be, in a little group as a leader.
40:55 Ambition is the same whether it is in the world or when you turn it towards God.
41:09 And to know consciously that you are free from ambition is surely an illusion, is it not?
41:29 And if you are free from it, is there any question that you are or not?
41:44 Surely one knows within oneself when one is ambitious, does one not?
41:55 And we can see very well all the effects of ambition in the world, the ruthlessness of it, the cruelty of it, the desire for power, position, prestige.
42:30 And when one is consciously free of something, is there not the danger of becoming very respectable, of being smug, satisfied with oneself?
42:59 I assure you, it’s a very difficult thing to be alert, to be aware, to walk very delicately, sensitively, not to be caught in the opposites.
43:21 It requires a great deal of alertness and intelligence and watchfulness.
43:30 And then, even when you are free from ambition, where are you?
43:44 Are you any more kindly, any more intelligent, any more sensitive to the outward and inward events?
43:59 Surely there is a danger in all this, is there not, of becoming stultified, of becoming static, becoming dull, weary.
44:34 And the more one is sensitive, alert, watchful, the more there is a possibility of really being free; not from this or that.
44:52 Freedom requires intelligence, and intelligence is not a thing that you cultivate sedulously.
45:07 Intelligence is something which can be experienced directly in relationship, not through the screen of what you think the relationship should be.
45:26 After all, all our life is a process of relationship; life is relationship.
45:38 And that requires an extraordinary watchfulness, alertness, and not whether you are free or not free from ambition.
45:52 Only, ambition perverts that relationship.
45:59 An ambitious man is an isolated man, and therefore he cannot have relationship, with his wife or with society.
46:18 And so, as life is relationship, whether with the one or with the many, and that relationship is perverted, is destroyed, is corrupted through ambition, and when one is aware of that corruption, surely there is no question of being free from it.
47:06 So in all this our difficulty is to be watchful, to be watchful of what we are thinking, feeling, saying; not to transform it into something else, but just to be aware of it.
47:32 And if we are so aware you will find it has an extraordinary effect. That awareness in which there is no condemnation, no justification, but mere attention, full cognizance of what is, in itself has an extraordinary effect.
48:02 But if you are merely trying to become less or more, then there is dullness, weariness, a smug respectability.
48:15 And a man who is respectable surely can never find reality; which means a great deal of inward discontent, which is not easily canalized through any satisfaction or gratification.
48:39 Now, if we can see all this, all that we have discussed this evening, not merely on the verbal level but really experience it, not at odd moments, not when you are pushed into a corner - perhaps as some of you are being now - but every day from moment to moment to be aware and to silently observe, and so become extremely sensitive; not sentimental, which only blurs, distorts.
49:50 To be sensitive inwardly, which means great simplicity, not of the loin cloth, or a few clothes, or no car, but the simplicity in which the me and the mine are not important, in which there is no sense of possession; a simplicity in which there is no longer the maker of effort.
50:40 Then there is a possibility of experiencing that reality, or that reality come into being.
50:49 And after all, that is the only thing that can bring about real, lasting happiness.
51:00 Happiness is not an end in itself; it’s a by-product, and it comes into being only with reality.
51:15 Not that you go after reality; you cannot; it must come to you. And it can only come to you when there is complete freedom and silence.
51:34 Not that you become silent - that’s a wrong process of meditation.
51:41 There is a vast difference between being silent and becoming silent.
51:52 Then when there is real silence - not put together then there is something inexplicable, then creation comes into being.