OJ66D3 - How can a shallow mind become deep?
Ojai, California - 14 November 1966
Public Discussion 3
0:00 | This is J. Krishnamurti’s third public discussion in Ojai, California, 1966. |
0:09 | Krishnamurti: This is the last gathering, |
0:15 | and we were going to, this afternoon, to talk over things together, perhaps more in detail, |
0:26 | and go into one particular question or a problem to the very end of it. |
0:40 | I wonder what you would like to discuss or talk over together. |
0:50 |
Madame? Q: Many of us here are involved in education. |
0:56 | I think we must find out what does it really mean to be an educator. |
1:02 | K: What does it really mean to be an educator. |
1:12 |
Q: Let’s talk about dying to every moment. K: Let us talk about dying to every moment. |
1:20 | Q: Sir, how do you bring a cessation to psychic phenomena to those who have no desire to indulge in it? |
1:25 |
K: Beg your pardon? Q: How do you bring about a complete cessation to psychic phenomena to those who have no desire to indulge in it... |
1:31 | K: How do you bring about an end to the psychic phenomena, |
1:37 |
though you are not interested in it. Q: Correct. |
1:42 | Q: Please discuss the development of capacity. |
1:50 |
K: Discuss the development of capacity. Sorry, sir. Q: Do you find any difference |
1:57 |
between being emotional and being spontaneous? K: Do you find any difference |
2:02 |
between being emotional and spontaneous. Yes, Dr? Q: Could we discuss the question of intensity and passion? |
2:11 | K: Could you discuss the question of intensity and passion. |
2:16 | Now, I think that’ll be enough... |
2:24 | I wonder if we cannot put all these questions |
2:35 | into one issue, into one problem. |
2:48 | I think we can, if we can go into this question |
2:59 | of a mind that is shallow; |
3:08 | and if the mind is no longer petty, narrow, limited, |
3:15 |
then all these questions will be answered. Agreed? Is that right? Q: Right. |
3:23 | K: All these questions you’ll be… one will be able to answer for oneself. |
3:29 | So will those who have asked the questions, will they also agree with… |
3:36 | if we can discuss one thing that’ll include all this? |
3:42 |
Yes, sir? Q: Sir, what is true blessedness? K: True blessedness. We’ll... |
3:49 | Right, sir, I’ll come to that. Shall we discuss one issue that’ll include all this? |
3:55 |
Q: Yes. K: Right? |
4:01 | That is, how can a mind |
4:11 | that is rather dull, superficial, petty, |
4:19 | so terribly self-concerned, self-centred, |
4:25 | how can such a mind become deep – right? – |
4:34 | so that one answers the question from the very depth, |
4:40 | and therefore from a depth |
4:49 | that will answer all these questions. Right? |
4:55 | So if we can go into that, perhaps we shall be able to come upon it for ourselves. |
5:11 | First of all, what do we mean by a shallow mind, |
5:19 | a petty mind, a narrow mind, |
5:24 | a mind full of opinions, judgments, |
5:32 | full of its own self-concerned activities, |
5:38 | outwardly and inwardly? |
5:45 | Would you say such a mind is a shallow mind? |
5:54 | A shallow mind can be extraordinarily informed, |
6:05 | very clever, like a lawyer’s mind, |
6:11 | cunning, capable of argument, |
6:19 | sustaining a particular point of view with statistics, |
6:30 | specialised knowledge, and so on and on and on. Would you call such a mind a shallow mind? |
6:44 | Please, if I may suggest, don’t agree or disagree. |
6:50 | We are going to investigate, go into this question. |
7:00 | If we say such a mind is a shallow mind, |
7:07 | and all its activities, whether outward or inward, |
7:17 | is still shallow. Right? |
7:26 |
No? Q: Self-centred. |
7:31 | K: Yes, sir. We’ll come to that. We’ll find out what it means to be self-centred. |
7:40 | I think I am – I hope you don’t mind... (takes off his coat) |
7:46 | – I think I am shallow-minded. I don’t admit it |
7:53 | – that’s a terrible idea to admit to oneself that I’m a very shallow, petty, bourgeois little mind – |
8:00 | but I see that. And I see such a mind, |
8:08 | though very well-informed about the world’s affair, |
8:15 | has many opinions, taking this side or that side, |
8:22 | committing itself to a particular activity, so-called spiritual, religious or political... |
8:30 | You follow? Now, I’m aware of that. |
8:37 | I’m aware that I’m rather a shallow person, petty, |
8:45 | very quick to react to… and safeguard my own pettiness, |
8:55 | justify it, or try to join something |
9:06 | or commit to a particular activity which gives the appearance of depth. |
9:26 | Please, I just want to, at the beginning, expose the question, and then we will discuss it, we’ll talk about it together. |
9:34 | We are inquiring what is a shallow mind. |
9:42 | I say to myself, because you have told me or I have become suddenly aware of this problem |
9:52 | that I’m a very shallow mind. My thoughts are very shallow, and I’m a do-gooder. |
10:03 | I don’t see the whole problem of the world. I see certain activity as a reforming activity |
10:11 | which will add a drop to this whole bucket of mess, confusion. |
10:19 | I see that, being shallow, narrow-minded, |
10:27 | I try to break through it. I try to acquire more knowledge, more information; |
10:34 | I read more books; I am able to talk about Mozart or Beethoven, |
10:39 | or some Indian music or some dancer or some artist, this and that and the other. |
10:46 | And I’ve got little gifts, capacities; I can develop those capacities, |
10:55 | because I see to have a good capacity gives me not only worldly position, |
11:03 | but also it makes me feel comfortable, makes me famous, and so on and on. |
11:12 | And also I see that, being narrow-minded, |
11:19 | I go to activities which are really narrow. |
11:26 | I support politicians, |
11:31 | canvass for them, |
11:37 | encourage others to be nationalistic, flag-waving; or I say, ‘This particular war is wrong, |
11:46 | but war, I like certain wars; I don’t like this war’. |
11:52 | Go into it, please; look at it. I take sides very quickly. |
12:02 | I am... I have got so many obstinate opinions which I justify, |
12:14 | because there are people around me who are also narrow-minded with their extraordinarily clever explanations, |
12:22 | and I say, ‘Look, So-and-So supported this idea’, and so on. |
12:36 | And, being aware of all this process, |
12:43 | if I do not commit myself to a particular political or a religious sects or groups, |
12:55 | then if I have committed myself to those, then I’m absolutely lost, |
13:03 | because they give me certain practices in meditation, in the way of philosophy, |
13:09 | what I should do, should not do, and I’m caught in that and that is my ultimate trap, and I’m lost in it. |
13:22 | If I don’t do that, and if I see other people who are committed |
13:30 | and see how silly it all is, then I question myself: |
13:35 | how is this mind, which is narrow, shallow, petty, |
13:43 | how is it to become deep? Right? |
13:56 | Would that be a natural, normal question? It would, wouldn’t it? |
14:05 | I see… No, that’s a simile; I don’t like...; let’s avoid it. |
14:16 | So my problem then is: |
14:23 | how is a shallow mind – and it’s aware it is shallow – how is it to become really very deep, very profound, very...? |
14:33 | What am I to do? |
14:42 | You understand my question? I see gathering information, getting terribly well-informed, |
14:53 | able to quote books, tell you, ‘That picture is better than that’, and go into the details, |
15:00 | the marvellous music and the musicians whom I know, don’t know. |
15:05 | You know? I know all that, and I say to myself: what am I do to do |
15:12 | to have a mind that is really very profound? |
15:18 | Right? That would be my normal question, wouldn’t it? |
15:26 | Do we say...? Do we...? Yes? Can we go on? |
15:32 | Right? Right. Now, look at the question, please. |
15:42 | A shallow mind is going to measure the depth |
15:52 | and it’s going to say what is profound. Right? |
15:59 | Right? Please follow this. It’s very important to understand this |
16:05 | if we’re going to discuss afterwards, go… talk about it. |
16:11 | Right? The moment it asks the question, ‘What am I to do to be profound?’ |
16:23 | it has already put a wrong question, and therefore it will do things |
16:30 | that it thinks will make it profound. You...? |
16:37 | I don’t know if you’re following all this. |
16:43 | Let me... Just a minute, sir. Don’t begin yet to ask questions about it; |
16:49 | let’s talk it over together, think it over together first. I realise I am shallow, superficial, |
17:04 | and I like to be very profound. |
17:16 | Now, I say to myself, you have told me, ‘Look, you are a silly person, |
17:23 | because the moment you put that question, |
17:28 | you’re already caught in the trap of shallowness, because a shallow mind can’t possibly measure the depth’. |
17:39 | Right? |
17:44 | So I have put a wrong question, and without knowing it’s a wrong question, |
17:54 | I pursue that question, and therefore I think I’m becoming more and more and more deep. |
18:02 | I don’t know if you’re following all this – if I’m making myself clear, not that you’re following. |
18:11 | So I have put a wrong question. Right? So what is the right question? |
18:33 | Please, we’re not playing a clever game or being entertained for an hour by cunning thought. |
18:44 | This is a tremendous problem, you understand? |
18:52 | Q: Probably, rather than a question there is a realisation that, ‘Yes, I am shallow’. |
18:58 | K: Look. |
19:03 | When you realise you are shallow, then what? |
19:13 |
Q: I feel emptiness, and I want... K: Sir, don’t use a different word. |
19:19 | Let’s stick to the same word, because we have understood it. Because if you bring emptiness, |
19:24 | then we have to explain what we mean by emptiness, and so on. Do please, let’s stick to one symbol and go through with that word. |
19:33 |
Q: How does my mind get that way? K: What, sir? Q: What realises I’m shallow? How did this come about? |
19:42 | K: I’m… We are... The gentleman asks: how does a shallow mind realise that it is shallow. |
19:49 |
Q:...what labelled it first. K: Ah, wait, wait. You have asked a question, sir; go into it a little bit; |
19:54 | you will see it in a minute. Either people have told me I am shallow, |
20:06 | therefore I say, ‘By Jove, I am shallow’, or I have discovered it. Right? |
20:15 | I have discovered it through comparison, don’t I? You are clever, not shallow; I am. |
20:25 | So I compare myself with you and say, ‘I am shallow’. |
20:32 | Right? And... – wait; please follow this – |
20:38 | is not comparison the very centre of shallowness? |
20:49 |
Yes, sir? Q: It wouldn’t be complete... An individual as you describe would never say, ‘I am shallow’. |
20:57 |
It is only the other person... K: I have said that just now, madame. |
21:03 | I have just now said, if somebody tells me I’m a shoddy little mind, |
21:10 | either I get angry, or because he’s a very clever man, |
21:15 | very so-called spiritual, or so-called intellectual, I accept it. |
21:24 | Or I say to myself, ‘I am shallow because I see you are very clever, very deep’. |
21:37 | In comparison to what I discover in you, I say, ‘I am shallow’. |
21:44 | Right? By comparing myself with you, I discover I am shallow. I don’t know if you are following all this. Right? |
21:51 |
Q: Not necessarily comparison. K: Wait, wait! I’m taking one thing at a time. |
21:57 |
Please. Q: They’re evaluating and judging and... |
22:03 | K: That’s right. So as long as I am evaluating, judging, comparing, |
22:13 | they are one of the factors that make the mind shallow. |
22:20 | Right? |
22:26 | So I don’t compare. You are following? I don’t compare. |
22:32 | Though you tell me I’m shallow, a shoddy little mind, I say, ‘All right’. |
22:38 | I don’t accept you; but I discover by comparing I am shallow, |
22:46 | and therefore I say, ‘By Jove, I must do something; I must become like you’, |
22:54 | and the becoming like you is the nature of shallowness. |
23:01 |
I don’t know if you’re following. Right? Q: It’s a vicious circle. |
23:09 | K: Becoming like somebody – a hero, a saviour, a master, |
23:17 | a very, very erudite, scholarly person – becoming through comparison – please follow this – |
23:25 | becoming through comparison is the very nature of shallowness. |
23:39 |
Q: But we continuously go between opposites instead of... K: Yes, sir, yes, sir; I know that. |
23:44 | So I reject… I don’t compare. Right? |
23:50 | I don’t compare. I don’t compare with ‘what has been’ or with ‘what should be’. |
24:07 | Right? Then I ask myself: if I don’t compare, if there is no hero, no symbol, |
24:16 | no person whom I’m imitating or conforming to, or who has informed me that I’m shallow, |
24:24 | therefore I am trying to be not shallow, when I reject all that – you understand? – |
24:35 | am I shallow? |
24:47 |
Q: I think at that moment I’m alert to the problem. K: No, no... Not ‘at that moment’; we are doing it now. |
24:54 |
We are doing it together now. Q: I mean that. K: All right. |
24:59 |
Q: So I say, ‘So what? I’m shallow’. I realise I’m shallow, so what? K: No, please, you... Look what we have done. |
25:07 | Please, just... let us see what we have done, |
25:13 | the structure and the meaning of what we have done. |
25:18 | We put many, many questions this evening. And we say, look, let us… if we could answer... |
25:26 | all these questions will be answered if we could take one central issue; |
25:33 | and the central issue is, we said: a petty mind, a narrow mind, a shoddy, bourgeois little mind. |
25:43 | And we, more or less, pointed out what is a shallow mind. |
25:50 | And we said a comparative mind is a shallow mind. |
25:57 | Right? |
26:07 |
Q: Does the mind always exist by seeking identity? K: What, sir? Q: Does the mind always exist |
26:13 |
by trying to seek identity all the time? K: It is doing that. When I say, ‘I must be like him’, I’m seeking identity. |
26:19 |
Q: So when we bring... K: Do see, sir: can... do we realise, not later but now, |
26:27 | that a comparative process indicates a shallow mind? |
26:40 |
Q: Does a questing mind indicate a shallow mind? K: What? Q: A questing mind, or the... |
26:49 | K: Yes, sir… that... I’m... Please... We have a very short time, therefore let us... |
26:58 |
Yes, sir? Q: Sir, I don’t have much time either. I would like to ask you a personal question. May I? |
27:05 |
K: Wait, sir; wait, sir. All right. Q:...mind in the uncreated state of freedom, you find it |
27:15 |
do you find it hard to communicate your thoughts to others? K: If they are listening, no. |
27:29 | Right. I realise all my life is a comparative process. |
27:41 | At school I have been told I must be better than that boy; |
27:50 | and, as I grow up, that is well-established through college, and so on and on. |
27:56 | And every advertisement says, ‘This is better than that’. ‘This toothbrush...’ – you know? – |
28:03 | better, better, better, better, better. |
28:11 | The ‘better’ is the destruction of the good. |
28:18 | But I’m caught in that: better. I must become the executive, I must become the bishop, |
28:24 | I must become the... – you know? – the colonel, and so on and on and on and on. |
28:32 | Now, I realise that this thinking in terms of ‘better’ |
28:42 | is the nature of a shallow mind – right? – |
28:48 | so can I immediately stop thinking in terms of ‘better’? |
29:00 | Q: Sir, you... you are a man speaking to a mixed audience. |
29:06 | Do you not think that the solutions you have found for yourself as a man |
29:12 | might be different from the answers a woman has? |
29:19 | K: My...! Sir, it’s not a question of man and a woman, |
29:28 | it’s a question of able to think clearly, |
29:34 | able to see things as they are. |
29:40 | And I think one can look, whether you are a man or a woman, clearly, |
29:46 | if we give attention to it; and attention is not possible if we are emotional, |
29:53 | either womanly emotional or manly emotional, manly obstinacy, or… and so on, so on. |
30:01 | So let’s come back to this. Can I, who have been conditioned so heavily |
30:11 | to think in terms of comparison, |
30:17 | can I end that, |
30:23 | end it completely today, now? When I look at a picture, I look at a picture, |
30:30 | I don’t say, ‘That is by So-and-So, and that’s better than that’. |
30:41 | Can I do that? From now, never compare? |
30:56 | Of course, I do compare when I have to choose this pair of trousers or that pair of trousers, |
31:04 | but that’s… we’re not talking about that. We are talking at a deeper level which… at a psychological level, not a deeper lever. Right? |
31:15 | So psychologically, inwardly, I have been trained by society, |
31:26 | by… in school, in education, to compare; |
31:32 | and that is tremendously… |
31:39 | that has conditioned me tremendously. And I see that, and can I break it instantly? |
31:53 |
Q: Yes. Q: No. K: Ah…! The questioner says, ‘No’, |
32:02 |
and because he has said, ‘No’, he has already blocked himself. Q: That’s not true. K: Sir, please, sir... When you… |
32:10 | when we say, ‘No’, to something, we stop questioning. Perhaps you didn’t mean that; I may be... |
32:19 | But – I am generalising, sir, not saying you or me – |
32:24 | but when we say, ‘No’, or, ‘Yes’, we are already… |
32:30 |
we have already stopped inquiring. That’s all, sir. Q: Must we not investigate further |
32:36 | and see what’s involved in the dropping of the comparisons? |
32:41 | K: We have done it just now, sir. You see, sir, I have to stop at a certain time |
32:48 | – four or quarter past four – and therefore we must proceed, otherwise... |
32:57 | Can I stop that, not compare anymore? |
33:07 |
Q: It’s the only way. K: Yes, sir? Q:...I just, speaking for myself, |
33:13 | I go a lot on the mountain top and I get no outside influence, and I understand much of what you’re saying; |
33:20 | I’m just trying to ask you again: when you’ve reached the stage beyond the... ...when your mind is in the uncreated state of freedom, |
33:26 | do you find it hard to communicate your thoughts to friends, so to speak? |
33:31 | K: Little bit, sir. Let’s proceed... Yes, madame? |
33:39 | Q: To what do you ascribe the shallow mind? Isn’t that due to the human condition? |
33:45 | K: We have just now said that, madame. We have described the human conditioning. |
33:58 | And one of the walls of that human conditioning, that prison, |
34:06 | is this comparing, all my life. |
34:17 | Somebody is more beautiful than I, and so on and on and on. |
34:23 | And can I...? I see that; can I so immediately break it? |
34:33 | What breaks it is seeing the truth of this comparative process; |
34:43 | and to see the truth of it, you must be completely attentive at that moment. |
34:53 | And if one is completely attentive, it’s finished. |
35:00 |
Q: For that moment. K: For that moment. No. |
35:09 | If you see... look... if you see danger, a precipice, |
35:19 | then you always are aware of precipices. |
35:25 | Right? You don’t say, ‘At that moment I’m aware of that precipice’. |
35:34 | But once you know the precipice, you are... I mean, it’s finished. |
35:42 | And… but you don’t see the comparative process is a most dangerous process, |
35:50 | and therefore you say, ‘At the moment I see it’, and fall back into it. But if one sees it as a tremendous danger, it’s finished. |
36:03 | Q: Aren’t you talking about the grosser comparisons? How about some of the subtler comparisons which one may not be aware of? |
36:09 | K: I... Of course, sir; sir, of course. Therefore, one has to see from moment to moment |
36:20 | how you are thinking. When you leave here, of course, |
36:26 | all the old habits of comparison comes into play; and at that moment, one comparison, at that moment, be aware of it. |
36:36 | Don’t say, ‘Oh, how terrible’. Be aware of that comparative thing immediately. |
36:47 | So... And we do comparative process, acquisitive process, |
36:54 | psychologically: the maintenance of anger, greed, and all the rest of it. |
37:03 | We say all that is the shallow mind. Now, is there a mind – please, next step – |
37:12 | is there a mind that is deep? |
37:23 | You understand my question? Have I explained my question? We have described what a shallow mind is: |
37:30 | its activity, its ways, its cunningness and what it is; we have drawn the dimensions, and all the rest of it. |
37:40 | Now, next thing is: is there depth? |
37:50 |
Q: To call a mind deep would be comparing. K: Of course. |
38:01 | No; no, sir. You have understood my question? Have I made it clear? |
38:06 |
Q: We don’t know if there is or not. K: You don’t know. But I’m asking you. |
38:13 |
Q: We know only the shallow mind. K: Right. But we have said, ‘Comparative process, drop it’. |
38:19 | Then naturally you will ask – I mean, I would – ‘What is a deep mind?’ wouldn’t you? |
38:29 | Wouldn’t you? Why are you...? |
38:39 |
Q: It would be a thought of the shallow mind. K: No, sir. You haven’t... Let’s go slowly, sir. |
38:51 | You see, the shallow mind, we’ve said, is the mind that’s always in action, |
38:56 | always in thought, comparing, judging, evaluating. Its very activity is born of thought. |
39:09 | And that thought says, ‘By Jove, I see that, then what is depth?’ Right? |
39:22 | Q: A mind that doesn’t think of itself. |
39:29 | K: Does that make for depth? A mind that doesn’t think about itself’. |
39:35 | But a mind that doesn’t think about itself may be committed to doing good work in Africa. |
39:43 | Q: It doesn’t qualify. No qualification. |
39:50 | K: No, you’re... Please. I’m asking myself: I see what a shallow mind is. |
39:57 | Then I begin to say, ‘Now, what is a really deep mind? |
40:10 | And am I going to find out through thinking?’ |
40:16 | Ah no, don’t say, ‘No’, please. |
40:23 | So I begin… I discover something. |
40:29 | I can go into the shallow mind and its structure and nature, |
40:36 | through thought, through reason. Right? |
40:42 | And through thought I’m going to try and find out what a deep mind is. |
40:47 | Right? And is thought the instrument? |
40:54 | Which doesn’t mean I become romantic, I become mystical, I become – you know? – |
41:00 | spiritual, religious, and all the rest of it. |
41:12 | So I discover thought is not the instrument. Right? Right? |
41:21 | Because I have gone into it very, very carefully through reason, through thought, |
41:27 | that… what is a shallow mind. I see it very clearly, because I can reason healthily, normally, clearly, |
41:38 | and I say, ‘That’s obvious’. Now, I’ve got this instrument which is called thought, and with that I’m going to investigate what is deep mind, |
41:47 | what is a deep mind. And I say, ‘By Jove, what am I doing? I’m using the same instrument which has made for shallowness, |
41:57 | and with that instrument I am going to find out’. I don’t... Right? |
42:03 | So I say, ‘By Jove, I see: I can’t’. Right? |
42:09 | Thought is not the instrument to find out what is profound. Right? |
42:22 |
Q: Without thought isn’t the way either. K: Wait, wait! Then what is the way, sir? Gentleman says, ‘Without thought...’ |
42:31 |
Q:...A quiet period isn’t the way either. K: I don’t know... We don’t know what the way is, sir. |
42:37 | Q: No, that’s what I say; I’m just posing... I’m trying to establish. |
42:42 |
We just go from one set of opposites to another. K: We are not. I’ve dropped a whole process that makes for shallowness. |
42:53 | I see that very clearly. But thought remains. |
42:59 | And with that thought I inquire. And therefore I realise, ‘By Jove, thought isn’t it; |
43:07 | that’s not the instrument, that’s not the drill’. |
43:13 |
Q: Action... K: No, no, please; do go step by step. Don’t jump to conclusions. |
43:21 | Q: Would you say... meditation? Going within? |
43:27 | K: Would you say meditation is the way? Look, please, I’m not pointing out a way. |
43:35 | If you follow a way, you are already shallow. |
43:44 | What we are trying to do is to see clearly how thought works, |
43:52 | which is comparative, acquiring information, knowledge, |
43:58 | joining this and that, and so on, so on; which is the monkey that’s always on a chain. |
44:07 | Right? And I see that. But the monkey still says, ‘I must investigate what is deep’; |
44:18 | and the monkey sets about asking what to do, what not to do, methods. You follow? |
44:27 | And I see, ‘By Jove, as long as there is an activity of the monkey, |
44:40 | it cannot possibly discover what is deep’, Right? And is there depth? |
44:53 |
Q: Is not depth just the opposite? K: What? Q: Is not depth in itself a statement of opposites? |
45:00 | K: No, sir. We have been through all that, sir. Do... You understand? I have... |
45:06 | Being shallow, I realise what shallowness is. I realise it. It’s not a verbal statement, it’s not a conclusion; |
45:13 | it isn’t something which has been imposed on me or I have discovered, it is a fact; |
45:20 | and that fact has been created by thought. |
45:25 | And I say, ‘By Jove...’ Now, I... The monkey with that thought says, |
45:31 | ‘I must be more profound; what is the way?’ Still it is the monkey, the thought. So I reject that. |
45:40 | Right? Because I say, ‘By Jove, as long as I use the instrument |
45:46 | which has created shallowness, it will also create depth which will be actually shallow’. |
45:55 | Right? |
46:01 |
Q: With thought... separates and compares... K: No, sir. So what do I do? |
46:13 | What do I say, then? Then I say to myself, ‘By Jove, is there depth at all?’ |
46:22 |
Q: Not within the self. K: Please, please, sir, do… do… don’t answer me yet; do look at the question. |
46:32 | The shallow mind has realised it is shallow, |
46:37 | and now it has sought depth, and realises the seeker is the maker of shallowness. |
46:46 | Right? And the seeker says, ‘Is there depth at all, |
46:54 | which I have sought, sought, sought?’ |
47:04 | So one discovers, if you have really gone that far, not verbally, not intellectually, not emotionally, |
47:12 | but really gone that far, then you will find there is neither shallow nor depth. |
47:18 | Ah no, no! Don’t agree, please. This is the most... |
47:31 | Being shallow, I have filled with activity |
47:38 | – the mind has filled itself with activity – |
47:43 | and that activity has made it extraordinarily alive, but it’s still shallow. |
47:48 | Now, I reject that kind of activity – comparative, and all the rest of it – |
47:54 | and then I am still seeking depth. It is still the activity of thought, and therefore it’s still shallow. |
48:07 | That is, that activity of seeking depth is now the content of the mind, |
48:17 | and therefore the seeking of the depth is still shallow. |
48:23 |
Right? Sir… Yes? Q: You have spoken many words for many years |
48:31 |
and written many words... K: I’m afraid so, sir. Q:...and I mean this quite sincerely, |
48:38 |
not sarcastically at all... K: Oh, it doesn’t matter, sir. Q:...do you think you have come upon or spoken any original thought? |
48:48 | K: Oh, I wouldn’t know, sir. The gentleman says, |
48:54 | ‘You have talked a great deal, written a lot of words. Do you think you are original?’ |
49:00 | I never even thought about it. This is not humility, but it has never said, ‘By Jove, I’m original’. |
49:11 | I mean... No, sir, no… |
49:20 | So I realise and therefore I am dead… |
49:26 | there is death to comparative thinking, altogether. |
49:32 | There is death to seeking depth. |
49:38 | Therefore, what has happened to my mind? |
49:49 | It is no longer caught in the activity of the superficial, |
49:55 | now it’s no longer seeking in the activity of the depth, |
50:01 | so what has happened? The mind has emptied itself of all activity – right? – |
50:08 | superficial or profound. |
50:15 | Therefore it is empty. |
50:24 | And from that emptiness it acts; from emptiness, |
50:30 | not from comparative seeking or from the activity of depth. |
50:40 | Both the activities are superficial; both the activities are the activities of thought as the monkey. |
51:01 | Look, let’s look at it round the other way. I’m sorry I’ve taken so long. I hope... Do you want to ask questions in this? |
51:09 | Q: Sir, is the explosion in the mind that you talk about...? |
51:16 | K: Here it is, sir; that’s what we’re doing now. There is an explosion taking place now if you really go into it. |
51:26 |
Q: The monkey cannot manifest thought. K: Ah, monkey is the thought. |
51:32 | It is not manifesting thought. Please, that’s only a word, ‘monkey’ or thought; |
51:38 | I just brought in that word, but doesn’t... Throw that monkey out. |
51:47 | So what has happened? |
51:54 | There is a state of mind, I see – you know? Not I see – |
52:02 | I have rejected totally all comparative thinking; totally. |
52:10 | I don’t compare myself with anybody: |
52:16 | with the masters, with the saviours, with the artist, with the hero, with the country – you know? – |
52:24 | I completely put that aside. Because it is dangerous, |
52:31 | and because it is the work of a shallow mind, it is dangerous, therefore I know the danger of that, all the time. |
52:40 | And when a dangerous thought of comparative thinking comes up, |
52:46 | I know immediately that’s a dangerous thought, and I walk away from it, without effort. |
52:53 | And also, I know comparative thinking... the search for depth is still thought at work. |
53:03 | The thought which has created the shallowness is now trying to create depth; |
53:13 | and it’s the same work. You understand? Whether you call it depth or shallow, it’s still the same. |
53:21 | Q: Sir, in your attitude towards the questioning I perceive a difference between what you see here, |
53:27 |
and your image of what should be here. Am I right or wrong? K: What, sir? Q: In your attitude towards the questioners |
53:34 | I perceive in your mind a difference between what you see here and an image of what should be seen here. |
53:39 |
K: Yes, sir, that’s... Q: Your impatience I... You seem impatient sometimes with the questioners... |
53:45 |
K: Me? I am impatient? What, sir? I can’t understand. Q: Yes, that’s what he said. |
53:51 | Q: I say, I perceive as you look out here that your impatience with the questioners would seem |
53:58 | you’re comparing what’s here with what you think should here and you’re impatient with the questioners. |
54:04 |
K: What is this? I can’t hear, sir. Q: He says you are impatient with the questioners. K: He says I’m impatient with the… |
54:09 |
The questioner says I’m impatient with the questioner. Q: No; may I state a reason? |
54:15 | I say, you look here and you see this gathering, and I think your impatience is caused by the fact |
54:21 | that what you see here is a little different from your image, an image you have of what a proper question should be. |
54:28 | K: I am sorry. No, sir, I’m not doing that. Sorry; I’m not impatient, first of all. Look, our time is... I said at the beginning |
54:36 | – I’ll have to stop fairly quickly, at four o’clock or ten past four – and I said I’m not... It is, sir... We must get... |
54:44 | It’s like a fast horse is not impatient, it wants to run. |
54:49 | I can... It can... You can hold it, and say, ‘Look, hold on’. |
54:55 | We have done that, at different... I am… please, I’m not... All that I want… |
55:02 | Let’s go into this thing, which is not impatience. On the contrary, |
55:08 | I have gone into it very, very, very slowly, step by step. |
55:14 | So... And also he says I have an image about the audience. I haven’t. |
55:19 | I mean, it would be stupid on my part to have an image... So... let’s cut out all that. |
55:25 | Now... So I realise the activity of thought |
55:35 | creates both the depth and the shallowness. |
55:49 | And therefore, realising it, both activities stop. |
55:55 | I think when it is necessary, otherwise what’s the point of thinking? |
56:05 | I don’t know if you’re following. Or – wait, wait, wait! – no thinking at all. |
56:11 | Wait, sir, you’re not… you don’t go into all this. |
56:19 | You understand? I mean, sorry, not ‘you’ understand. |
56:25 | Sir, if one really puts away, not through effort, |
56:33 | because you see the thing very clearly, that thought breeds both the superficial and the depth; |
56:41 | if you see that, if you understand it, if one actually realises that |
56:48 | – as you would realise a toothache, actually realise it – |
56:53 | then both activities stop. |
57:02 | Then the mind is completely empty of such activity; |
57:08 | and these two activities, that’s what we are burdened with all the time. |
57:16 | That’s our life, our way of looking at life. And when you don’t look at life that way, |
57:22 | there is something entirely different, naturally: which is, your mind is completely empty of these two activities. |
57:35 | And it is not that that emptiness must be maintained; |
57:41 | and when you maintain anything, it is maintained by thought |
57:46 | because thought derives, from that, pleasure; |
57:51 | and therefore it is not empty of these two activities. |
58:00 | And so there is neither depth nor the shallow. |
58:10 | If one discovers that, you have discovered everything. |
58:17 | And so your mind, being empty, can function in this world, go to the office, have a family, |
58:28 | from that emptiness. |
58:33 | Right, sirs. |