OJ66T5 - Meditation is freeing the mind of the known
Ojai, California - 12 November 1966
Public Talk 5
0:00 | This is J. Krishnamurti’s fifth public talk in Ojai, California, 1966. |
0:08 | Krishnamurti: I should think one of our greatest problems in life |
0:17 | must be, surely, knowing that our minds |
0:28 | deteriorate, decline, as one grows older, |
0:35 | or deteriorate even when one is quite young, |
0:45 | being a specialist along a certain line and being unaware totally of the whole complex area of life, |
0:58 | it must be a great problem |
1:07 | to find out whether it is at all possible to stop this deterioration |
1:18 | so that the mind is always fresh, young, clear, decisive. |
1:32 | And is it at all possible |
1:39 | to end this decline? |
1:47 | This evening, if I may, I would like to go into that |
1:58 | because to me meditation |
2:06 | is freeing the mind from the known. |
2:17 | And to inquire into this question, |
2:24 | which is really very, very important, |
2:30 | one must, it seems to me, |
2:36 | know or be aware |
2:42 | the whole machinery of the formation of image |
2:54 | which each one of us has about himself or about another, |
3:01 | and not only be aware of that machinery that makes these images |
3:07 | but also how we add to those images that we have about ourselves, |
3:18 | because it is these images that gradually begin to crystallise, become hard. |
3:33 | And the whole of life, which is a constant movement, constant flow, |
3:43 | and this crystallisation, this process of hardening of the image |
3:55 | is the central fact of deterioration. |
4:02 | One notices obviously that the brain cells themselves as one grows older, |
4:12 | burdened with innumerable experiences, hurts, many strains, conflicts, despair, |
4:26 | the competitive process of life, |
4:31 | all these and other factors bring about a lack of sensitivity in the brain cells themselves. |
4:46 | That one sees as one grows older. |
4:54 | And one sees also, when one is quite young, |
4:59 | a mind trained along a special line, |
5:08 | completely concentrated on that line, |
5:13 | and avoiding the whole area of this extraordinary life |
5:21 | makes these brains cells also very narrow, very small, |
5:29 | being unaware of the whole total movement of life. |
5:35 | Which is the modern education, which is the modern of living. |
5:46 | And it is not only with the young |
5:52 | but also as one grows or advances in years |
5:59 | one notices this, the sharpness, the clarity, the precision, |
6:10 | the capacity to think impersonally, |
6:17 | to look at life not always from one centre |
6:23 | – whether that centre is noble or ignoble, that’s irrelevant – |
6:29 | a self-appointed centre, |
6:34 | and from that gradually the crystallisation of the whole brain cells |
6:42 | and the whole mental process declines. |
6:49 | And is one… one is then ready for the grave. |
6:54 | And the question then arises: is it at all possible |
7:03 | to end this decaying process of this brain, as well as of the mind, |
7:11 | the whole total entity? And also whether it’s possible to keep the physique, the body, |
7:18 | extraordinarily alive, alert, energetic, and so on. |
7:27 | So that seems to me a great issue |
7:34 | and therefore a great challenge to find out. |
7:41 | Now, the inquiry into this, |
7:46 | not only verbally but nonverbally, |
7:55 | the inquiry, the examination into this is meditation. |
8:09 | Because that word itself is so misused. |
8:18 | There are so many methods of meditation, especially coming out of Asia: |
8:28 | the Zen form of meditation, the Hindu and the dozens of ways of meditation. |
8:37 | If we understand one, we shall understand the total systems and the ways of meditation. |
8:47 | But the central issue that we are going to talk over together this evening |
8:57 | is this: that whether the mind can ever rejuvenate itself, |
9:13 | whether it can become fresh, young, unafraid. |
9:34 | And if one asserts that it is not possible, |
9:42 | one is actually then blocking oneself. All examination ceases when you say it’s not possible |
9:50 | or when you say it is possible. Either the positive denial of saying that it is not possible |
10:01 | or saying, ‘Well, it is possible’, both, it seems to me, are irrelevant and they block all examination. |
10:16 | But the fact remains that as one grows older |
10:24 | that the mind does decline. |
10:31 | It declines because one sees that the whole process of thinking, |
10:43 | the structure of the brain and the totality of the whole process which is the mind, |
10:52 | is a way of conflict, struggle |
11:06 | and constant strain, a self-contradictory process. |
11:18 | Now, if I may point out here, |
11:25 | I think it would be good to find out how you are listening to what is being said, |
11:38 | because we’re not concerned with ideas. |
11:44 | One can go on with innumerable ideas, adding them, writing about them, reading about them. |
11:55 | There are volumes upon volumes about thought and what its process, and so on and so on. |
12:02 | And there are all these psychologists who have theories about all this or statistical facts, and so on. |
12:13 | Are we listening to a series of words or phrases or ideas, |
12:25 | or are we listening, observing the actual state of our own mind? |
12:41 | And I think that’s very important, especially when we are talking about something which is not… which is beyond argumentation of opinion, |
12:52 | personal inclination or personal outlook. |
13:03 | The fact is that there is deterioration |
13:13 | and if one looks at it and translates that deterioration |
13:20 | or tries to transcend it or go beyond it in terms of personal inclination, temperament, and so on, |
13:28 | it becomes a very shoddy affair. |
13:37 | But if one observes it as you would observe a tree, a sunset, |
13:46 | light on the water, the outlines of a blue hill, |
13:54 | just to observe it, just to observe the process of what is actually taking place in each one of us, |
14:07 | then we will go together. |
14:14 | And if you cannot do this, there will be gaps and you will not... |
14:21 | we’ll not be able to take the road together. And also this requires a sustained attention, |
14:33 | not for two minutes or three minutes, for this whole hour. |
14:42 | And whether one can be so alert, attentive, |
14:50 | not only to what is being said but also to relate what is being said |
14:58 | to your own activity inside of yourself. |
15:07 | Then such listening has an extraordinary action. |
15:19 | But if you merely listen to ideas or words, |
15:28 | then you can have this idea or that idea, accept this opinion or that opinion. We’re not dealing with opinions. |
15:37 | That only leads to dialectical approach. But what we are talking about is something entirely different. |
15:51 | We are concerned with the whole total process of living. |
15:59 | And this total process of living, as one observes, |
16:04 | is always creating an image about ourselves, about others, |
16:14 | image through experience, image through conflict. |
16:24 | This image is added to or taken away, but the central factor of that energy |
16:32 | which creates that image is always constant. |
16:43 | And is it at all possible to go beyond it? |
16:54 | And are we aware that there is an image in each one of us about ourselves, |
17:03 | conscious or unconscious? |
17:12 | I mean, one might think… one might have an image about oneself as superior, as… |
17:20 | or not having capacity or aggressive, pride, |
17:27 | all kinds of nuances, subtleties, which build up this image. |
17:38 | Surely each one has this image about oneself. |
17:46 | And as one grows older… |
17:51 | – it might be that age has nothing really to do with it. One has an image when one is very, very young |
18:01 | and that image begins to get more and more strong and more and more crystallised |
18:07 | and then there is the end of it all. So is one aware of it? |
18:17 | And if one is aware of it, |
18:24 | who is the entity that is aware of the image? |
18:32 | You understand the issue? Is the image different from the image-maker, |
18:52 | or the image-making and the image are the same? |
19:00 | Because unless one understand this factor very clearly what we are going into will not be clear. |
19:12 | You understand? I perceive I have an image about myself: I am this and that, |
19:18 | I am great man or a little man or I am… my name is known/not known, God… – you know? – |
19:23 | all the verbal structure about oneself and the non-verbal structure about oneself, |
19:32 | conscious or hidden. And I realise that image exists, |
19:45 | if at all I become aware, watchful, |
19:51 | I know there is this image is being formed all the time. |
19:58 | And the observer who is aware of that image |
20:04 | feels himself different from the image. |
20:11 | Isn’t that what is taking place? Right? I hope you are… I mean, we are making this clear. |
20:24 | And the observer then begins to either say to himself that, |
20:32 | ‘This image is the factor that brings about a deterioration therefore I must destroy the image |
20:40 | in order to achieve a greater result, |
20:45 | to make the mind young, fresh, and all the rest of it’, |
20:50 | because he realises this image is the central factor of deterioration |
20:57 | and therefore he makes an effort to get rid of that image. |
21:05 | Right? Is that...? Are we going along together? |
21:11 | And he struggles, he explains, he justifies |
21:17 | or adds, strives to alter it to a better image, |
21:25 | moves it to a different dimension or to a different part of that field which he calls life. |
21:39 | So the observer then is concerned with either the destruction of that image |
21:47 | or adding to that image or going beyond that image. |
21:53 | This is what we are doing all the time. |
22:03 | And one has never stopped to inquire whether the observer is not the image-maker |
22:17 | and therefore the observer is the image. |
22:25 | Right? And therefore when there is this factor very clearly understood, |
22:32 | which is not… which is non-verbal but actual, |
22:38 | that the observer is the maker of the image and whatever the observer does |
22:46 | not only destroys the present image he has about himself |
22:51 | but also he creates another image and so keeps this forming of… |
22:59 | making of images all the time going, struggling, compelling, controlling, |
23:07 | suppressing, altering, adjusting. |
23:17 | But when one sees this... the observer is the observed, |
23:25 | then all effort ceases to change the image |
23:31 | or go beyond the image. |
23:44 | This demands a great deal of penetration and attention. |
23:49 | It isn’t just you accept an explanation because the explanation, the word, is not the fact. |
24:04 | And to realise this – if I may take off my coat off – |
24:14 | to realise the central fact, eliminates all effort. |
24:30 | And this is very important to understand. And effort, struggle, in different ways, |
24:38 | either physically or psychologically as competition, as ambition, |
24:48 | aggression, violence, pride, accumulated resentments, and so on, |
24:56 | is one of the factors of deterioration. |
25:07 | So when one realises that the observer is the image-maker |
25:23 | then our whole process of thinking undergoes a tremendous change. |
25:41 | And so the image is the known, isn’t it? |
25:56 | You may not be aware of it, you may not be aware of the content of the image, |
26:02 | the shape of it, the peculiar nuances, subtleties of that image. |
26:15 | And that image, whether one is conscious of it or not, |
26:21 | is in the field of the known. Right? |
26:34 | Perhaps we can discuss, answer the question afterwards; for the moment we’ll go on with what we are talking about. |
26:45 | So as long as the brain… as long as the whole mind, |
26:51 | in which is the mind, the brain and the body, the whole mind functions within the field of the image |
26:58 | which is the known, of which one may be conscious or not, |
27:05 | in that field is the factor of deterioration. |
27:18 | Right? Please, don’t accept it as an idea |
27:26 | which you will think about when you go home. You won’t anyhow. But, I mean, here we are doing it, taking the thing together, |
27:36 | therefore you must do it now not when you go home and say, ‘Well, I’ve taken notes and I’ve understood it; I’ll think about it’. |
27:44 | Don’t take notes because that doesn’t help at all. |
27:53 | So that is the field in which the mind functions, |
28:01 | always within the field of the known. |
28:08 | And the known is the image, whether created by the intellect |
28:14 | or by lots of sentimental, emotional or romantic... |
28:20 | – you know? – all that. |
28:28 | And so the problem then |
28:36 | is whether the mind, which is the result of time, psychological and chronological, |
28:48 | which is the result of thousand experiences, |
28:54 | which is the result of so many stresses and strains, of technological knowledge, of hope, of despair |
29:03 | – you know? – all that we… one… a human being goes through, |
29:13 | the innumerable forms of fear. |
29:19 | All that functions always within that field, in the… which is the field of the known. |
29:28 | The known – I am using that word – which may be there but you have not looked at it, |
29:34 | therefore it is… but still it’s known, it’s the known. |
29:44 | Now, as long as it… its activity, its thoughts, its movement is within the field of the known, |
29:53 | which is the making of the image, there must be deterioration, |
30:00 | do what you will. |
30:06 | So the question arises: is it possible to empty the mind of the known? |
30:22 | You understand? Am I making myself clear? It doesn’t matter. |
30:39 | One must have asked this question, vaguely or with a purpose |
30:46 | because one suffers, one has anxieties, whether it’s possible to go beyond, or one has vague hints of it. |
30:58 | Now we are asking it as a question which must be answered, |
31:10 | as a challenge which must be responded to, and this challenge is not an outward challenge |
31:18 | but a psychological inward challenge. |
31:25 | And we’re going to find out whether it is possible to empty the mind of the known. |
31:39 | I’ve explained what I mean… what we mean by the known. |
31:48 | Now, this process of emptying the mind… – I’m sorry – |
31:54 | this emptying of the mind is meditation. |
32:04 | And we must go into this question of meditation... I mean, explain it a little bit. |
32:14 | All the Asiatic people are conditioned by this word, |
32:25 | so-called religious serious people are conditioned by this word, |
32:30 | because through meditation they hope to find something which is not… |
32:36 | which is something beyond mere daily existence. |
32:42 | And to find it, they have various systems, very, very subtle or very crude like the Zen: |
32:52 | the discipline, the forcing, the beating, |
32:58 | or watching... tremendously being aware of the toe and then to see how it moves, or to be conscious of it all, |
33:06 | and so on and on and on in different ways. And also in that so-called meditative systems is concentration, |
33:19 | fixing the mind on one idea or one thought or one symbol, and so on, |
33:25 | which every schoolboy does when he reads a book, when he’s forced to read. |
33:33 | And there’s not much difference between the student in the school and the very deep thinker |
33:38 | who tries tremendously to concentrate on one idea or one image and to try to discover some reality out of that. |
33:48 | And also there are various forms of stimulation, |
33:59 | forcing oneself, stimulating oneself to reach a point |
34:05 | from which you see life totally differently, |
34:17 | and that is to expand consciousness |
34:25 | more and more through will, through effort, through concentration, |
34:32 | through determination to force, force, force, and by extending this consciousness |
34:40 | one hopes to arrive at a different state or a different dimension |
34:46 | or reach a point which the conscious mind cannot. |
34:53 | Or one takes many, many drugs, |
34:59 | including the latest, LSD, and so on and so on, |
35:04 | that gives for the moment tremendous stimulation to the whole system |
35:13 | and in that state one experiences extraordinary things. |
35:24 | Extraordinary things through stimulation, |
35:29 | through concentration, through discipline, through starvation, fasting. |
35:37 | If one fasts for some days, one has peculiar… obviously peculiar things happening. |
35:47 | And one takes drugs and that for the moment gives you… |
35:53 | makes the body extraordinarily sensitive, and you see colours with… which are most extraordinary, which you have never seen before. |
36:01 | You see everything so clearly there is no space between you and that thing which you see. |
36:12 | And this goes on in various forms throughout the world: |
36:18 | the repetition of words, like in the Catholic or in those prayers, |
36:27 | which all make the mind a little calm and quiet, obviously which is a trick. |
36:32 | If you keep on repeating, repeating, repeating, you get so dull, obviously you go to sleep |
36:39 | and you think that’s a very quiet mind. Please. |
36:45 | So, |
36:50 | and there are very many systems |
36:56 | both in Asia, which include India, and in Europe, |
37:02 | to quieten the mind. One goes through extraordinary tortures to still the mind, |
37:13 | but that mind can be stilled very simply by taking a tranquiliser, |
37:19 | a pill that will put you to... semi-awake but quiet, |
37:24 | but that’s not meditation. So one can brush all that aside even though one is committed to it, |
37:35 | we can throw all that out of the window. |
37:42 | And as you are listening, I hope you’ll throw it out |
37:47 | because we are going into something much deeper than these inventions, |
37:58 | whether it is the inventions of a very clever mind which has had a peculiar experience, |
38:07 | the other experience, and so on and so on. |
38:13 | We can really, having examined, not in too much detail but sufficiently, |
38:20 | one can put all that aside. Because the more one practices a discipline |
38:28 | the more the mind becomes dull, mechanised. |
38:37 | And that mechanising, routing process makes the mind somewhat quiet, |
38:42 | but it is not the quietness of tremendous energy, understanding. |
38:51 | So having brushed those aside as immature, utterly nonsensical, |
39:03 | though they produce extraordinary results, |
39:10 | then we can proceed to inquire |
39:16 | whether it’s at all possible to free the mind from the known, |
39:25 | not only the known of thousand years but also of yesterday, |
39:32 | the memory... which is memory. |
39:39 | Which doesn’t mean that I forget the way to my… |
39:44 | to the house that we live in or technology. That obviously one must have. |
39:50 | That’s essential, otherwise we can’t live. But we are talking at a… of things… something... at a deeper level, |
40:03 | the deeper level where the image is always active. |
40:10 | The image, which is the known, is functioning all the time, |
40:17 | and whether that image and the maker of the image which is the observer, |
40:24 | whether it’s possible to empty the mind of that. |
40:31 | And emptying of that of the known is meditation. |
40:37 | And we are going to go into that a little bit because this… I don’t if you have the energy or the attention, sustained attention, |
40:44 | to go... so far. |
40:52 | One sees very clearly that there is an understanding |
40:59 | and therefore an action only when the mind is completely quiet. |
41:08 | Right? That is, I say I understand something |
41:15 | or I see something very clearly when the mind is totally silent. |
41:23 | Right? Isn’t it? |
41:31 | You tell me something, |
41:37 | and you’re telling me something which I don’t like or like. If I like, I pay a little attention; |
41:44 | if I don’t like, I don’t pay any attention at all. |
41:49 | Or I listen to what you’re saying and translate it according to my idiosyncrasy, to my inclination, |
41:58 | and so on and so on and so on, justifying, and so on and so on. |
42:04 | I don’t listen at all, or I oppose what you’re saying |
42:12 | because I have an image about myself and that image reacts. |
42:17 | Please, I hope you are doing all this. |
42:24 | And so I don’t listen, I don’t hear, I object, I defend, I’m aggressive, |
42:34 | but all that obviously prevents me from understanding. |
42:41 | You understand? I want to understand you. I can only understand you when I have no image about you. |
42:51 | And if you’re a total stranger, I don’t care; I don’t even want to understand you because you’re totally outside the field of my image |
43:02 | and I’ve no relationship with you. But if we are a friend, a relation, and so on, |
43:08 | a husband, wife, and all the rest of it, I have an image. |
43:13 | And the image I have and you have about me and I have about you, in… those images have relationship, |
43:24 | and all our relationship is based on that. |
43:38 | And I see… one sees very clearly that only when the image doesn’t interfere |
43:46 | – image as knowledge, emotion, all the rest of it – interfere that I can look, I can hear, I can understand. |
43:56 | It has happened to all of us when suddenly you discuss, argue, point out, and so on, |
44:04 | suddenly your mind becomes quiet and you see that; you say, ‘By Jove, I’ve understood’. |
44:11 | That understanding is an action, not an idea. |
44:18 | Right? |
44:28 | So there is understanding action, |
44:33 | only action in a different sense than the action that we know |
44:39 | which is the action of the image of the known. We are talking of an understanding which is an action |
44:46 | when the mind is completely quiet in which understanding as action takes place. |
44:55 | Right? So there is understanding and action only |
45:04 | when the mind is completely quiet, |
45:09 | and that quiet, still mind is not induced by any discipline, by any effort. |
45:17 | Obviously if there is an effort, it is the effort of the image to go beyond itself |
45:23 | and create another image – you know? – all the tricks of that. |
45:30 | So one sees that there is an understanding action only when the mind is quiet, |
45:37 | and that quietness is not induced, is not projected, is not brought about by careful, cunning thought. |
45:56 | And meditation then is, which one can do when you’re sitting in the bus, |
46:01 | walking the street or washing dishes and God knows what else. |
46:08 | And meditation has nothing whatsoever to do with breathing and all that – you know? – we have brushed all that aside long ago, |
46:17 | or taking postures – you know? – all that childish stuff. |
46:26 | Then one asks: |
46:33 | when the observer is the image and therefore there is no effort to change the image |
46:44 | or to accept the image but only the fact of ‘what is’, |
46:51 | and the observation of that fact of ‘what is’ |
46:59 | brings about a radical change in the fact itself. |
47:12 | And that can only take place when the observer is the observed. |
47:21 | There is nothing mysterious about it. The mystery of life is beyond all this, |
47:30 | beyond the image, beyond effort, beyond the centralised, egotistic, subjective, self-centred activity. |
47:41 | There is a vast field of something which can never be found through the known. |
47:55 | And the emptying of the mind can only take place non-verbally |
48:06 | only when there is no observer as the observed. |
48:14 | All this demands tremendous attention, awareness, |
48:22 | an awareness which is not concentration. |
48:30 | You know, concentration is a focussing upon a particular page, an idea, |
48:38 | image, a symbol, and so on and so on – which is, concentration is a process of exclusion. |
48:49 | You know... tell a student, ‘Don’t look out of the window; pay attention to the book’, and so he wants to look out |
48:55 | but he forces himself to look, look at the page. So there is a conflict. |
49:04 | And this constant effort to concentrate is a process of exclusion |
49:10 | which has nothing to do with awareness. |
49:16 | Awareness takes place, which is very simple when one... you... everybody can do, which is to observe, |
49:23 | observe not only what is the outer – this tree, what people say, |
49:29 | what one thinks, and so on, outwardly, but also inwardly to be aware without choice, |
49:39 | just to observe without choosing. For when you choose… when… choice takes place only |
49:46 | when there is confusion, not when there is clarity. |
49:54 | So awareness is… takes place only when there is no choice, |
50:03 | or when you’re aware of all the conflicting choices, conflicting desires, the strains, |
50:11 | just to observe all this movement of contradiction – |
50:19 | and knowing that the observer is the observed, |
50:24 | and therefore in that process there is no choice at all but only watching ‘what is’. |
50:34 | And that’s entirely different from concentration. |
50:40 | And that awareness brings a quality of attention |
50:50 | in which there is neither the observer nor the observed. When you really attend, if you have... |
50:57 | – we all do sometimes – completely attend, like when you’re now, |
51:04 | if you are really listening, there is neither the listener nor the speaker, |
51:15 | and in... that state of attention is silence. |
51:23 | And that state of attention brings about an extraordinary freshness, |
51:28 | young, youth… – not youth; in America they use that word terribly – |
51:35 | extraordinary sense of freshness, quality of newness to the mind. |
51:48 | And this emptying of the mind with all the experiences it has had |
51:54 | is the… is meditation. And experience, though one has had a thousand experiences, |
52:02 | and we are the result of millions of experiences, |
52:10 | and that can be emptied only, all the experiences, when each experience, one becomes aware of it, |
52:18 | sees the whole content of it without choice and therefore it goes... it passes by, |
52:25 | therefore there is no mark of that experience as a wound, as something to remember, to recognise and keep. |
52:37 | So meditation is a very strenuous process. It’s not just a thing to do |
52:45 | for old ladies or men who have nothing to do. |
52:51 | This demands tremendous attention right through. |
53:00 | Then you will find for yourself… – no, there is no question of experience; there is no finding – |
53:06 | then when the mind is completely quiet |
53:11 | without any form of suggestion as hypnotism or following a method, |
53:20 | when the mind is completely quiet then there is a quality and a different dimension |
53:26 | of which thought can never possibly imagine or experience. |
53:33 | Then it’s beyond all search; there is no… then no seeking. |
53:43 | A mind that is full of light does not seek. |
53:49 | It’s only the dull, confused mind that’s always seeking and hoping to find. |
53:55 | What it finds is the result of its own confusion. |
54:19 | Is it worthwhile talking about all this, questioning, asking? |
54:26 | Yes? All right; go ahead. |
54:41 | Q: Sir, I want... when we are in this state as we are now, |
54:48 | full of images, and so on, how you explained, |
54:54 | if this soundness of the mind is only derived the result of constant... |
55:01 | images or of wrong living habits, |
55:09 |
from eating, for instance, and... and so on. K: I don’t quite follow your question, sir. |
55:15 |
Make it brief, sir, because I have to repeat the question. Q: I mean, if we get... mind only, |
55:23 | a deteriorate mind through produce images on the one hand, |
55:31 |
also on wrong living habits... K: Of course, sir, I included all that. |
55:39 | The questioner asks: is not the deterioration… |
55:47 | has not deterioration two factors, not only the image-making factor but also the wrong way of living, wrong food, and so on? Obviously. |
56:01 | I mean, it’s clear, isn’t it? I mean, to live... |
56:06 | Sir, all this demands such extraordinary sensitivity, |
56:11 | both of the body and of the mind. They are not that the two are separate. |
56:17 | And there is a separateness which one cannot possibly understand unless one goes into this question of observer and observed. |
56:28 | So, obviously, how one lives, what one thinks, what are one’s daily activities, angers – you know? – all rest of it. |
56:43 | Q: Krishnaji, the images, the known, as you say, or the... is it fitting to examine together here now the non-image |
56:53 |
or the unknown or the unconscious? K: What, sir? I haven’t understood the question. Q: Would it be fitting to examine |
56:59 | together here now the non-image area, the unknown, or the unconscious? |
57:05 | K: Can we examine, the questioner asks, |
57:11 | the non-… the state which is non-... |
57:17 | which is not brought about through the image or examine the unconscious? |
57:26 | As we said the other day, |
57:32 | actually there is no state as the unconscious. |
57:38 | Sorry. |
57:48 | I mean, one has dreams. One never asks oneself why does one have dreams at all? |
58:00 | One has dreams if one has overeaten and all... that’s all right, that’s clear. But all those dreams which need interpretation |
58:08 | and, you know, all the fuss they make about dreams. |
58:15 | Why do you dream at all? Is it possible not to dream and… |
58:23 | so that when you wake up the mind is fresh, clear, innocent? |
58:33 | One dreams because during the day you have not paid attention; |
58:45 | you’ve not watched what you have said, what you have thought, what you have felt, how you have talked to another; |
58:51 | you have not watched the sky, the tree, the beauty of, you know, so much. You haven’t watched, |
58:59 | and so all the… this field which has not been examined, watched, looked, |
59:08 | naturally projects in that state of the mind when it is half-asleep |
59:16 | an image or an idea or a scene and that becomes the dream which has to be interpreted, |
59:23 | and so on and so on and so on. So if one is… when one is aware, watching, looking, |
59:34 | not interpreting, choicelessly, all things, you will find for yourself you don’t dream at all |
59:44 | because you have understood everything as you’re going along. I’ve not finished, madame. |
59:56 | Look, please, if you understand one question, you have understood all the questions. |
1:00:08 | This question which we are talking... asked, which has been asked, |
1:00:13 | is whether the conscious mind can examine the unconscious, |
1:00:20 | can look into something which is hidden, |
1:00:28 | whether it can analyse. And it can, obviously. |
1:00:33 | It can see the motives, the reactions of… in relationship, and so on. It can obviously analyse. |
1:00:45 | And this process of analysing what is part of the whole field |
1:00:55 | and that part is in another corner of that field, which is called the unconscious, |
1:01:01 | and which we make so much ado about, |
1:01:08 | that can be examined very quietly without analysis by just watching the whole field. |
1:01:19 | And the whole field is the conscious and therefore the whole field is limited. |
1:01:32 | The whole area is limited because there is always the centre, the observer, |
1:01:40 | the censor, the watcher, the thinker. |
1:01:45 | And you can only observe the whole field, what is called the unconscious and the conscious, |
1:01:52 | which are on that field, only when there is no observer at all, |
1:02:07 | when there is no attempt to change ‘what is’ |
1:02:14 | but be totally attentive, completely attentive of the whole field. |
1:02:22 | Then you’ll find out for yourself there is no such thing as the unconscious |
1:02:31 | and there is nothing to be examined. |
1:02:36 | It’s there to look, only we don’t know how to look |
1:02:41 | and we don’t want to look. |
1:02:47 | And when we do look, we want to change it to our pleasure, to our idiosyncrasies, to our inclination, |
1:02:54 | which becomes terribly personal. And that’s what interests most of us: very… to be personal. |
1:03:06 | Q: Sir, when one is in the state of a quiet mind and makes some discoveries, |
1:03:11 |
are these discoveries to be treated any differently from...? K: Obviously not, sir. |
1:03:16 | When the quiet mind discovers something, is that… are those to be examined or to be treated |
1:03:24 | like any other experience, like any other thing. A quiet mind, a still mind, never experiences. |
1:03:38 | It’s only the observer that experiences, therefore the… it is not a still mind. |
1:03:53 |
Yes, sir? Q: To see the false as false and to differentiate that between what is observed, |
1:04:01 | you realise that this is not true... very difficult concept... |
1:04:08 | K: Yes, sir. As long as you have concepts you never see what is true. |
1:04:18 |
Yes, madame? Q: My main trouble is that I can’t stay aware |
1:04:23 | for a long enough period of time, maybe a few seconds, a few minutes and I fall asleep, |
1:04:29 | and this has been going on for years. Now, I’m wondering… |
1:04:34 | K: The questioner says: I can’t be aware for a long period. |
1:04:39 | I’m aware one or two seconds and then the rest of the time I’m asleep and I struggle. |
1:04:47 | You see, to be attentive at the moment of… |
1:04:58 | attentive at that moment when you are aware is enough, |
1:05:06 | but when you say, ‘I must extend it, keep it going’, then the trouble begins. |
1:05:15 | Then you want it as a pleasure. |
1:05:23 |
Q: Sir, if there is no unconscious… K: Wait, sir… |
1:05:36 | You see, behind this question lies the desire |
1:05:46 | to have something permanently, |
1:05:53 | a permanent awareness, a permanent state of attention. |
1:06:02 | What has… what is important is to be aware, |
1:06:09 | to be attentive completely at that moment – it may last one second – |
1:06:16 | completely aware, and next second you may be inattentive, |
1:06:23 | but know also you are inattentive. Don’t say inattention must become attention |
1:06:37 | and thereby you introduce conflict, and therefore in that conflict |
1:06:45 | awareness, attention completely ends. Yes, sir? |
1:06:51 | Q: Sir, if there is no such thing as the unconscious mind and unconscious thinking, |
1:06:58 | how do you explain such phenomena as post-hypnotic suggestions? |
1:07:04 | K:...Post-hypnotic... I know all… Yes, sir, that’s clear. |
1:07:09 | Look, sir, I mean, one can’t... Please, this requires… |
1:07:16 | When I said there is no such thing as the unconscious I have been saying don’t accept what is said. |
1:07:23 | Let’s look into it, neither accepting nor denying. |
1:07:30 | Your question, sir, what happens after hypnosis, and so on, through hypnosis, |
1:07:37 | is very explainable, all still within the field of the known, conscious. |
1:07:48 | Sir, what is important in all this, in asking questions and the answers or the explanations, |
1:07:57 | is that the explanation has no value at all. |
1:08:08 | What has value is how you ask the question |
1:08:17 | and what you’re expecting out of that question. |
1:08:23 | If you are attentive of what you are asking, you will see that question is answered without any difficulty, |
1:08:32 | therefore there is no teacher, no… You are everything yourself, |
1:08:38 | both the teacher, the pupil, the… – you know? – everything. |
1:08:43 | That gives you tremendous freedom to inquire. |
1:08:48 | Right, sirs. |