Krishnamurti - How does one help a child to understand the immense problem of conditioning?

Krishnamurti Subtitles

OJ77DT1 - How does one help a child to understand the immense problem of conditioning?
Ojai, California - 25 February 1977
Discussion with Teachers 1

0:54	Krishnamurti: Shall we talk over things first or shall I begin the ball rolling? Shall I first talk and then we can have a dialogue?
1:25	We're talking about the school, aren’t we, parents' relation with the schools, the children and so on. First of all, I'd like to point out if I may, that this is not a sectarian school, not some freakish, out of date, or any of those kind of schools. I think, as Mr Mark Lee and I have been connected with the schools for many years, considering what the world is, I think that these schools should produce a totally different kind of human being. Human beings who are not American, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, none of those, but unconditioned human beings, if it is possible. That I feel is the responsibility of a school of this kind, that when they leave the school, though they may choose to go to university, college and so on, and get a degree and a job, but they leave the school, high school, highly intelligent, capable of meeting any challenge intelligently. And they may be gardeners, cooks, or prime ministers or presidents, but that intelligence is operating all the time.
3:31	I don't know any of you, if I may say so. I haven't discussed any of these problems with you, but we have four schools in India, one in Brockwood, one here, one in Canada, Vancouver. All these schools are one body, though legally separated.
4:02	They are all concerned, primarily, with bringing about a different kind of mind in the child, a mind that is capable to work efficiently academically or otherwise, who are highly intelligent and therefore respect human beings. And I don't feel these are ideals. These are facts that can be brought about. Because I personally have an abomination of ideals, because they have no meaning at all. Ideals imply something in the future. But we are talking of being, bringing about children who actually... educate them so that they are really total human beings, both emotionally, intellectually, and physically, so they grow up into compassionate human beings.
5:28	I don't know if you are interested in all this. And one of our difficulties is going to be that there is no authority, if I may begin with that. Authority implies conformity. In authority there is fear, obedience, suppression of one's own capacity to observe, to think clearly, and so on. So where there is authority, politically or otherwise in schools, there is the destruction of a mind flowering. And I do not know how far such a thing can be carried out in a school of this kind. And that depends on the teachers and the parents. And if the parents see the necessity of it as well as the teachers, that authority implies imitation, conformity to a tradition or to a pattern of living, the authority of one who knows and giving what he knows to another. So the capacity to learn comes to an end.
7:18	May I go on? Is that all right? Because a school is a place where there is leisure. I believe the word school comes from the word leisure. It is only when one has leisure one can learn. And if the teacher or the parent is merely concerned in transforming what he knows and implanting in the child or the student, then that form of learning merely cultivates memory. And when there is the operation of memory constantly, it becomes mechanical. Therefore all activities become mechanical. We'll discuss all this afterwards. And as modern society is almost becoming mechanical, and universities are conditioning human beings into certain types of people, is it possible to educate children, students, who are really capable of learning? Not mechanical learning. May I go into all this? Will it become difficult? I hope my language is all right. Is it?
9:24	There are two types of learning. All right, I'll go into it. Learning and then acting. I learn, that is, store up facts and information, memory, and from that memory, act. That's what we do, either through experience or through gathering information or being taught. That is, having learned, act, either skilfully or unskilfully. And the other is to go out, act, and learn. Both are a form of accumulating knowledge, and then acting from knowledge. Is this somewhat clear? I learn in a school, in a college, university. I store up all that I have learned and then from that knowledge I act. And the other is to act and learn from acting, and so gathering knowledge too. So both are the same. The communists, the Maoists and others say go out and learn. Especially Mao and that whole group, go out and learn. And the other school says learn and then act. So both are cultivating knowledge. And therefore if you are acting all the time upon knowledge, it becomes mechanical. We'll go into this question, if you want to, afterwards. The other is, which we are proposing, is see what is implied in these two categories of learning, what is implied in the sense of how mechanical it becomes, always acting upon knowledge. Which is, knowledge which is past. So you are always acting from what you already know and therefore there is never freedom in action. The other is, which we are proposing, is to have an insight about these two. You understand? insight into the whole field of knowledge.
13:10	You must have heard of Bronowski who has been talking, he's dead now, he has been talking on the BBC a great deal about the ascent of man. According to him and his whole group the scientists really, in fact, say that man can ascend only through knowledge, accumulate knowledge, grow, cultivate, ascend, more and more. Which means living, acting, from the past. Because knowledge is the past. There is no knowledge of the future, there is only knowledge of what I already know. Right? So, to see into the whole area, into the whole field of knowledge and its implications, to see it is to have an insight into it. And acting from insight, not from knowledge. If we go into it, it's quite exciting. And is that possible, is it possible to educate children, students and ourselves, to have an insight into things and acting from insight, not from knowledge? An insight is not storing up knowledge. I have an insight into the whole field of religion, say for instance, the whole area of religion, which is belief, dogma, ritual, and experience based upon conditioning, and worshipping that which man has already created, which thought has created, and to see into the whole field of religion is to have an insight into it. And acting from that insight, which means not having beliefs, not having rituals, not having dogmas, authority, but having insight into religion is the highest form of religion. Are we meeting each other?
16:27	So is that possible? That means the relationship between the student, the teacher, and the parent undergoes a radical change. Though the parent and the teacher are giving information, they are giving information not from a pedestal, not from a person who says, I know, you don't know, therefore authority and obedience and all the rest that follows, but a relationship of mutual learning, a mutual learning how to act in life. Isn't it? After all, all learning is how to act in life. Right? If the teacher or the parent is giving information and cultivating that form of learning which is acquire knowledge and act, or act and learn, both imply the storing up of knowledge and acting from that knowledge. Now can there be a relationship between the parent, the teacher, and the student in which there is only the exploration of insight and not merely the cultivation of knowledge? You've understood? Am I conveying something?
18:37	Teacher: Sir?
18:40	K: Just a minute, let me finish the whole field of it. Can we have such a relationship with the student that both of us are learning, I won't use the word learning again, both of us are trying to understand the non-mechanistic way of living. Let's put it that way. Because knowledge and the acting from knowledge is a mechanical process which has been going on for thousands of years and that has not transformed man. Man is not ascending through knowledge. He may go to the moon, that's not the ascent of man. He may have the most extraordinary technological capacity but that's not the ascent of man. That's only a very small side of man. The ascent of man implies a psychological freedom, psychological flowering. And can we in a school of this kind, where parents, teachers and children are involved totally, if that is so, can we bring about this kind of relationship where authority as knowledge is totally put aside? Because if you examine, if you've gone into it, every form of education is to condition the child. The Catholics have done it very well for centuries, the Indians and Hindus, all over the world, to condition the child to act in a certain way technologically, morally, and psychologically. What we are talking about, if you agree, if you think it's worthwhile, and if that's the right way of living, is to totally uncondition the human mind so that it is capable of having knowledge technologically, but having an insight and acting in human behaviour. That's one part. And also in the school can there be respect for each other? Respect implies either you respect someone through fear, or through affection, care, love, compassion. Unfortunately, as far as I have seen in this country, there is no respect for anybody. Would that be accurate or am I exaggerating?
22:43	T: Not even out of fear?
22:47	K: I said that. I said there is respect through fear. That's not respect.
22:54	T: I see.
23:04	K: Can there be in the school respect not out of fear but out of care, affection, love, compassion? That means courtesy, that means behaviour. I respect you, therefore I get up. I open the door for you, whether a man, woman, child, it doesn't matter, I respect you. If I do it out of fear then it is a rather shoddy little affair. So behaviour is born out of respect. Is that possible? Or are we all saying, you are old fashioned and I am new fashioned. You are old fashioned therefore you get up for a lady or when you are introduced to somebody, but a man and woman being equal, I don't get up, I put my feet on the desk when you come inside and shake hands with me. That kind of irresponsible behavior based on personal conditioning. Whereas respect, out of love, compassion, care, in that, having no fear, there is consideration, the whole thing changes. It's not then the old generation and the modern generation. Now is that possible in the school? Another thing involved is... Shall I go on with it? Because observation is very important, because you learn much more through observation than through a book. Observation of nature, observation of one's own behaviour, one's own thoughts, feelings. So that through observation there is heightened sensitivity. And that sensitivity declines as one grows older because one has ceased to observe, and so one loses a relationship with nature, and so one loses one's relationship with human beings. Am I talking all Greek? Are you all with us, with each other? So relationship becomes very important. To eliminate the image the student has about the teacher, the educator, and the educator has the image about the student or the parent, so that we are related not through images but actually. Not through conclusions, or ideas and patterns, but related every day of one's life in actuality. Is that possible here? Because otherwise we are just turning out, like other schools, other colleges, other universities, human beings who are really... you know what they are, I don't have to tell you, Violent, stupid, all that's going on in the world. So now let's talk, discuss this a little bit. That is, first, knowledge, then respect, then relationship. Right? Can we discuss this, have a dialogue about it?
29:15	T: Can we go into what it means to explore insight together?
29:25	K: We're going to discuss it. Is one aware that we are acting from an experience, experience means knowledge, therefore acting always from the past? I've had an experience as an engineer because I've studied engineering in college, university. I've acquired certain skill and that knowledge is stored in the brain and I act according to that knowledge, expand it, learn more about it, but it's always from the background of knowledge, and so knowledge is the past. Don't agree with me. In this way, you're going to have an insight into it.
30:41	T: To see it for yourself.
30:43	K: See the fact. That is, we are acting from knowledge. Whether you learn first and then act or act and then learn, which both comes to the same thing, and so knowledge is always a limiting factor. It's not a factor of freedom. Not the freedom which says, I'll do what I want, that's not freedom at all. So, is one aware of this fact, that you and your children, the teachers, are acting from the known and so they never see the new, whether they are young or old. Now, when you see that clearly, that's an insight isn't it? So, from that insight you act. You understand? Not my words, but the significance of it?
32:32	T: This awareness, it's the doing isn't it? You're doing something when you're aware, it's almost like you're holding back, you have to watch very closely. We justify so quick, we seem to put things into words so quick, and I think this awareness is really a holding back and just watching very closely.
33:05	K: No, if I may ask, why do you say holding back?
33:09	T: Because this conditioning seems to come so quick.
33:14	K: Be concerned with the quickness of the response, which is born from conditioning.
33:19	T: And the justification, that's part of the conditioning also. We seem to justify our actions so quickly instead of examine them, really examine them, and never mind the justifications that we seem to be involved in, in words, so much. In our actions we seem to justify them so quickly instead of just being aware and watching them, our actions in our relationships. It's the doing, the way I see it. This actual awareness is the doing and getting away from the justification.
33:55	K: Just a minute, I don't know what you mean by awareness.
33:58	T: The watching. The watching of the whole thing, oneself.
34:01	K: Now, how do you watch? Sorry, I must be very clear. In order to understand each other we must know the meaning of each word. Now, what do you mean by saying 'watching'? I may give it a different meaning.
34:18	T: Mostly it's watching yourself, your responses to what is happening around you.
34:23	K: I understand. Now who is it that's watching?
34:27	T: Well, you have to be very careful. That's the awareness.
34:31	K: No, don't go back to awareness. You say 'watching'. T: Right, being aware.
34:38	K: Now, leave awareness for the moment. Watching. I'm watching the nature, the wind, the trees, the sunlight and so on. I am watching you and watching me. Now what do we mean by watching, observing? And who is it that's observing? Is the observer different from the observed?
35:04	T: No, the observer is the observed.
35:06	K: No, go slowly, be careful.
35:08	T: No, I see that. I see that very clearly, that the observer is the observed. This is what I'm talking about, this is what I'm trying to say. This is the doing. The seeing that the observer is the observed, in the observing. Everything I see out there is me. I am the world.
35:28	K: Yes, so you are observing without the me.
35:36	T: I see that.
35:40	K: If you are a parent or a teacher, can you help the student to observe without the me? The me being all the responses, the conditioning.
35:51	T: And the only way to do that is to do it yourself.
35:55	K: Therefore, not you, I'm not asking you personally, are we doing it?
35:59	T: That's what I'm saying, the awareness is the doing. We have to do it. Unless we do it, I don't think the children can do it. K: Of course.
36:07	T: We have to do it. K: That's it. Are we saying, whatever we say to the child we are doing? So there is not hypocrisy in it. That's it, that's what I want to get at.
36:27	T: We seem to justify what we are saying instead of watching it, watching it very closely.
36:32	K: So if I say to my son don't smoke, and I smoke, it becomes rather silly. I take drugs and say don't take drugs. So in a relationship between the parent, the teacher, is the teacher and the parent doing something contrary to what he is saying to the child, to the student? And the student pretty quickly spots the hypocrisy.
37:10	T: Oh yes, they’re wired into you.
37:13	K: Therefore he doesn't pay any attention.
37:15	T: And if we're hitting them with conditioning, then we're conditioning them.
37:18	K: That's just it, that's what I'm asking.
37:21	T: So we are not doing it.
37:28	K: So, I come back to the point: are we acting from knowledge and therefore always limiting action? Are we aware of that? Do we do this, do I realise that I am functioning from the background of knowledge?
37:59	T: That's the whole problem as far as I see it.
38:01	K: Yes, go into it.
38:03	T: That's the whole problem. Unless we see that, we're still in it. We're justifying, we're still conditioning our children.
38:09	K: Therefore if I'm in a school, how shall I help the student to understand this?
38:17	T: We have to do it.
38:18	K: I'm doing it. We're doing it now, go into it. I'm your student. How will you help me?
38:30	T: Watching myself very closely...
38:32	K: No. You're doing that, but you're in a class, you're with a few children, how will you help me?
38:38	T: I can't help you.
38:40	K: No, you can. Then what's the relationship between you and me as a student?
38:46	T: I think just being there, being aware.
38:50	K: You're doing it, you're doing it all the time. But how will you convey and help me to understand the whole significance of acquiring knowledge, which is what we call education? On one side, I must have technological knowledge of every kind if I can, in order to earn a livelihood and so on. So, how are you going to help me to understand this whole problem? You are doing it, obviously. I hope you're doing it. As a teacher, how will you help me? You understand my problem? I'm asking you.
39:36	T: Acting together.
39:38	K: No, I'm asking something, if you will forgive me, I'm asking something different. A school, a college, a university is concerned with acquiring knowledge so that you can get a job, so that you can marry, the whole modern existence. That's what the universities exist for. And if I, as a parent, see the whole meaning of knowledge, which is acting from the past, hoping thereby to ascend, go beyond, etc., and I see how false that is, there is no freedom in it, it is always moving in the field of the known, which is mechanical, how am I to convey to the student this question? While he is acquiring knowledge all the time? I'm teaching mathematics, geography, history, whatever it is, I'm teaching. He must know mathematics, which is acquiring tremendous information about the whole problem of mathematics, and I tell him, You must learn not only mathematics, history, geography, all the rest, and so he says, Why should I have any other thing? You follow?
41:26	T: Yes, not to make the mathematics so important. The important thing is to learn to understand himself.
41:32	K: No, but he must also have the other. So, how will you help him? Come, face it.
41:40	T: The acquisition of the mechanical knowledge is very quick, and when you start talking about these other things, that becomes knowledge as well, psychological.
41:51	K: Therefore everything is translated into knowledge. You follow? See the danger of it.
42:00	T: But if you're in that state, I'm a mathematician, so I was taught. If one is in an unconditioned state on that day, it will just transmit naturally.
42:15	K: No, freedom on one day is not freedom.
42:20	T: Okay.
42:23	K: How will you, you're a teacher of mathematics, I'm your student, tell me how you will help me to have a great deal of knowledge on one side, mathematics, and yet be free to act without knowledge, you follow?
42:46	T: Yes, I follow. Well, I think in the teaching...
42:50	K: Show me. I'm doing it now.
42:51	T: Okay, we start drawing figures. Do you want me to do it with you, or as if you are a two year old?
42:55	K: I'm your student.
42:59	T: And you really want me to do it?
43:01	K: Of course. Avanti.
43:08	T: First, I wouldn't initiate it until you came to me and said you wanted to learn some maths. I'm sitting there doing math and you come in and say, I want to do math too. I start telling you, but the thing is, it's my attitude, because as you ask for the knowledge, I give you some. Then we explore the ideas together. Then maybe you have a better idea than I do and it goes off into learning together. If I don't have the attitude that the knowledge is important, that will come out, because then you will have some ideas and give them back to me...
43:44	K: So you see the importance of not only having knowledge but also the unimportance of it. T: Yes.
43:52	K: You see it very clearly.
44:02	T: The ones further down the line I don't. On this one I think I have the insight.
44:06	K: See this very clearly, that knowledge is necessary and also knowledge is not necessary in a certain psychological area.
44:16	T: Yes. I have that for an insight.
44:20	K: Right. How are you going to help me, as a student, to understand this very complex problem? It's not a simple problem, you understand? Very complex.
44:31	T: Okay. We start doing the math. You come and say you want some knowledge.
44:35	K: I don't say anything because I'm a poor little boy. Come on, sir.
44:39	T: No, the fact was I'm doing math, then I'd wait until you came up to me.
44:43	K: No, I don't come up to you. There is a class.
44:46	T: Oh, that's hard. Let's assume you come up to me, assume I'm doing math after class, because this is the case that happened, and you come up to me and you say, what are you doing, you're doing math, I want to learn some math. So I just explain what I'm doing and there are some figures, and then my son ran off and got some blocks and then he started showing me shapes, and now the idea is actually he had some ideas, he said what about this, and what about that, and then you have to be open to learning from them.
45:14	K: All right, proceed.
45:15	T: So, there is your mind and my mind, and if you're intense in what we're doing, you're going to have some good ideas. And this thing flows back and forth so at least now we're to the level of learning together.
45:26	K: Right, proceed from there.
45:28	T: Ok, then as we learn together, this thing is going on.
45:35	K: You're not meeting my point, forgive me.
45:37	T: Well, I don't think you tell them anything, I think you just live that viewpoint, and it's picked up.
45:44	K: I may pick it up wrongly. We generally do.
45:51	T: No. Not too many people believe what you said, but if the teachers absolutely have insight and believe what they say, you'll pick it up from them without any words because they will be living, they'll be acting it. I'm saying you have to act it. You have to act as if you can learn from somebody else. You're not the teacher, it's a two way thing. And as the ideas go up your attitude shows that you don't take knowledge as the only basis of action, that in the mathematics there is the freedom of thought.
46:27	K: But thought is never free.
46:29	T: Ok, your words are better than mine. But I think it comes out of the attitude. If the person has the insight and they’re doing the math, and you're the student, you'll pick it up with no words.
46:40	K: Therefore have you, forgive me, have you the insight into the whole field of knowledge? Not various types of knowledge, but knowledge. Which means to know. To know implies the past; I know. So it's a very complex thing this, to act or to understand where knowledge has its place and where psychologically it is a danger. Will you help me, as a student, to see the psychological danger of knowledge? Wait, go slow. You follow?
47:43	T: Yes, I follow. Well, I think it's by example.
47:48	K: Then I copy you. If you become my example then I imitate you. Then you are my authority, you are my guru.
48:02	T: But if the example is, like in the middle of a math discussion where I'm the teacher and you start as the student we reverse roles, because you've worked on this thing and it comes the other way. At least we reversed roles. I don't think you can say it verbally.
48:17	K: I'm going to point it out, you can say it, go slowly.
48:20	T: Ok.
48:25	K: Do you, as a parent or the teacher, educator, have an insight into the field of knowledge? That is, where it is absolutely necessary. Of course, I know where I live, so I drive to my home or walk to my home. I know how to run a mechanical car. But if I say, I know my wife, which is psychological, then the danger begins. Then 'I know my wife' implies I know her, I have an image, I have a picture, I have a conclusion. The conclusion is my knowledge about her. Therefore there is no relationship at all. Now how will you, please see the difficulty of conveying this to a student who can't, you follow, he has no idea of all this. He says father and mother, like and dislike, frightened or, etc., how they have treated him, and he remembers all that, and he is acting from that.
50:05	T: Right.
50:06	K: So how will you help him to free himself from all that? That's the function of education. Not merely to give him some stupid exam, etc.
50:19	T: Sure. Well, you can try to tell him.
50:26	K: Tell me. How will you tell me?
50:28	T: I'm not going from sort of a polished speech, I'm just going into the past, like when I've had students... You tell them what you just said. Or if somebody is doing mathematics all the time and you're getting along really well in creating it, you might point out that their personal life, it may not be worth the sacrifice, that they should go out and relate to other people.
50:51	K: No, I'm sorry, forgive me, you are missing my point. I love my parents, I say as a student. If you ask them, 'Yes, I love my parents.' Which is what?
51:07	T: I missed that. What?
51:09	K: Which is, when he says, I love my parents, what is implied in that?
51:15	T: Usually, the ones I talk to say they don't love their parents, but it's the same.
51:19	K: Go into it.
51:22	T: Ok, sometimes there's fear... Oh wow, we're going a long way.
51:28	K: That's just it. This is a very complex problem, that's why we are trying to understand what is implied in all this. Not come to any conclusion but what is implied, what is the substance of all this?
51:51	T: Ok, you're saying how do you as a teacher... In concrete cases, at the university I'll be doing math. These people usually don't like their parents.
52:02	K: Look, I am a mathematics teacher, and you are my student.
52:10	T: You actually look very much like a professor.
52:13	K: I'm a mathematics teacher and you are my student. I know mathematics implies knowledge, learning. I've learned it from my professor and I've passed some examinations and I've got a degree, and that degree gives me the capacity to teach in a school, and I want money so I'm here. And you are my student. And I've suddenly seen, because I've heard somebody say, look what knowledge does. I haven't quite understood it but I'm trying to capture the significance of it. So, I'm thinking a great deal about it, I'm watching it, I'm going into it, when I'm walking, when I take the bus, sit in the bus or ride, I'm seeing the implications of this tremendous problem. So, I'm a mathematics teacher. I haven't totally captured the whole thing but I'll capture it in talking with the student. I'm exposing my own thoughts to the student, but the student doesn't know that I am exposing, because the poor chap, I'm exposing too much for him. So I talk. I say, Now, I'm not going to teach you mathematics for the moment. We're going to talk over together relationship. Do you love your parents? The instinctive response of the poor little chap is to say yes. And I'll talk to him about it, about what's implied in love, are you frightened, have you got images about them, you know, go into it with them. So I say look, you are acting from the known. I say now, that's enough for this morning. Just let him assimilate a little bit of it. So I go into mathematics. The next day I say look, let's go into that other thing much more. So we are working together, I am helping him, showing him how we act from images, from symbols, from conclusions, from opinions, from saying, you are old, I am young, therefore I think differently. I show him all this by talking it over with him. Which is, I want him to understand this. So I say look, there is knowledge and there's freedom from knowledge. He'll get it.
55:17	T: Have you done this much? I try that sometimes, and sometimes it goes good, sometimes it's a disaster.
55:22	K: I won't do it. I have that poor chap with me for the next six months, eight months, so I'm going to work at it day after day, slowly, patiently, with care. Because I'm interested in this. This is my life, not mathematics.
55:43	T: Sure. Sometimes they're quicker than us, too. Sometimes I think the children are quicker than us. They seem to pick it up quicker sometimes than we do, their alertness to different things.
55:57	K: So I say look, don't draw a conclusion from what I say. Learn how you are related to your parents. Watch what relationship means. So that if you are acting on relationship from the past, you say yes, this is my wife, I know all about her, it's silly. So is relationship, which means memory as it is understood, which is remembrance, is love a remembrance? No, I won't go into all that.
56:48	T: In this school we are working with children who are very young and it's often impossible to go into a dialogue with them.
56:58	K: Of course, I know that, therefore I create the atmosphere. where you and I as teachers, educators, parents, we've talked a great deal about this. Right? T: Yes.
57:12	K: Not occasionally but every day if necessary. We go into it. Not as, I know and you don't know. Together we are going to go into this problem of this whole field of knowledge, which is related to relationship. Right? T: Yes.
57:33	K: So, in talking it over together we are a serious group of people. The atmosphere here may be different from at your home, but when you come here you're serious. So we discuss, we go into it all the time. Mary Zimbalist: But that's with the parents, how do you convey it to a young child?
57:58	K: I'm doing it. I'll show you. How do I convey what? What do I convey? What do you want me to convey?
58:11	MZ: How do you convey to a child who isn't at a level where the almost abstraction of this is comprehensible?
58:16	K: Much too much for the poor chap. I know that.
58:18	T: So, what is it that reaches a young child?
58:21	K: So I say look, what is important? When they are very young, what is important? At two or five, what is very important?
58:35	T: The atmosphere, certainly. K: Which means what?
58:37	T: Security.
58:43	K: All right, security. What do you mean by that word? Because I may give a different meaning and you may give a different meaning to it? What do we mean by security? Physical security?
59:02	T: That's part of it.
59:03	K: That's part of it. Therefore psychological security?
59:06	T: That's part of it.
59:08	K: How will you give psychological security to a child? To a student in a school, of five, ten, how will you give him the feeling that when he comes here he is completely, psychologically secure?
59:36	T: To care for the child.
59:38	K: I'm asking you. You're going to have the school at the other end. He comes there. How are you going to create this feeling in the child, in the student, when he comes there, that he is totally, completely secure, protected?
1:00:03	T: He has to trust the people around him.
1:00:07	K: You are the beastly parent or beautiful parent, answer this question.
1:00:13	T: You can't put it on the child to expect him to feel secure.
1:00:16	K: No, he's out.
1:00:18	T: He has to come into that environment.
1:00:20	K: So how will you make him feel this?
1:00:30	T: Maybe you have to start by seeing when he's not feeling secure.
1:00:37	K: No, look, you've got a school there. Next Tuesday they are all going over there. How will you create the sense or the feeling or the atmosphere that when he comes there he knows, by jove, I am secure here, how will you create it?
1:01:03	T: A consistency?
1:01:07	K: No, just look.
1:01:10	T: If he hears me listen to him, I think that...
1:01:15	K: The child is out of it, leave him out. Because the poor chap...
1:01:25	T: We have to do it, yes. We have to create the environment with him. Security comes from inside, and so if the staff and the parents are secure, the children will be secure. If we're leaving him out of it.
1:01:42	K: No, please. When you use the word secure, what does it mean? You said just now, students need security, children need security, which they do, otherwise everything goes wrong in their life. They need security. Now what do you mean by that word, to be secure?
1:02:14	T: Well, a sufficient amount of inner peace. I think it comes from inside, it's not an external thing.
1:02:23	K: No, you're missing my point. How do you create this atmosphere, the sense that when he comes he is welcome, he's secure, that you are caring for him, that you are protecting him, that he says he can do what he likes?
1:02:43	T: That is true. K: You're missing my point.
1:02:46	T: That the people he comes to, that they do care for him, they are secure, and they do love him.
1:02:53	K: That means what? Do you? Do you, when you have your school there or in your house, are you giving him security?
1:03:03	T: No, it's not outside. Security comes from within.
1:03:08	K: No, you're missing my point. T: Sorry.
1:03:12	K: We said security implies no fear. It implies that you are really caring for him. For his clothes, for his food, the manner he eats, please listen, for the manner how he eats food, whether he is polite, respectful, kind, that means protection, that means security for him. So how will you create that? You who are the older are responsible for this, not the child, not the student. So you are responsible for it. How will you bring this about? So that the moment he comes he says, I'm at home. Not the home where he has come from, where he has been neglected. You go off to your office, the wife goes off to do something else and leave him. So he feels dreadfully insecure there at home, criticised, beaten, etc. You must be like your elder brother. You are this, you are that, etc. So he doesn't feel secure at home. Here he comes to a school where we're all concerned, we're all concerned, to see that he is completely secure. Which means no fear. That you really care how he dresses, whether he is clean, how he eats, how he sits, how he talks, you care.
1:05:01	T: Yes, but do we really say that with that care, or a lot of it seems to be said with conditioning and therefore we are confusing the child. A lot of things are being told at him.
1:05:11	K: No, I am not telling a thing to the child.
1:05:14	T: This thing of dressing, how you behave. There has to be the care there first to convey this to the child.
1:05:21	K: I'm saying that.
1:05:23	T: This is what's needed.
1:05:24	K: Are you concerned about the child’s security, that he should be free from fear, that he should love people, care for people, care for you, as a parent, as a teacher?
1:05:42	T: Of course. It's a terrible world and he needs this, to live in it.
1:05:51	K: It's a terrible world, you don't have to tell me.
1:05:53	T: All right, I live in it. I'm concerned for my children, this is why I'm saying this. I do care about my children.
1:06:03	K: So if you care for the children you will care for their taste, what kind of clothes they put on, what kind of food they eat, what kind of attitude they have, respect, you care. Now will you at that school, give this sense that he is protected, that he is secure? Like a marvellous tree that's secure in the wind. Well, sir? So that's the first thing, secure. Psychologically as well as physiologically, he feels that when he comes that you are really caring for him. Not that he should become the most extraordinary BSc or MSc or MD, but you are caring for him. It is not only caring intellectually, physically, he knows that somebody is looking after him. My god, sir. Because, you know when a child or a man feels completely secure, his whole attitude towards life changes. I don't know if you have read Mind in the Waters. It's all about whales. They have lived under great depth, completely secure, until man came along with his harpoons and all the rest of it. They have killed 50 million whales, more. So, those whales have an extraordinary mind I believe, because they have been so completely secure. You understand? So, if that is what's going to happen in this school, where the child is going to be completely and totally secure, that means no comparison. Right, sir? No grades. No saying, you're in a lower class, higher class, you follow? So that you remove all sense of competition, where everywhere around him says compete, compete, compete, compete, be ambitious, drive, aggressive. If you can't do it, I don't see the point of having a school here at all. If you ask, have you succeeded in other schools? I say no. But here, parents, teachers and students are together in this. Right? It is not you send these children away and then you go your way, you are concerned. There in those schools, in India and in Brockwood, the parents send them, and the parents carry on with their usual life. And when the children go back they say, My god, you know, all the rest of it. So will you make them feel the moment they come that they are really cared for? Don't you see what it does to the mind?
1:10:56	T: At this school, don't we have the responsibility to do the same thing at home?
1:11:03	K: That's up to you.
1:11:06	T: I feel like we're talking about home also. The moment they come here they have to feel tremendously secure, but we have to do that at home also. Isn't that the challenge that we have here?
1:11:17	K: Of course, how can you do it at home, when you are occupied, not you personally, I'm talking generally, with your problems, with the husband, if you have a husband, who is ambitious to get on, quarrels, disagreements, each occupied with his own problems, so you say, Well, let's take him to the school and leave him there, for God's sake. Please, that's what has happened. At least let's keep him out of our mess. So when he comes home from school, he meets the mess, and so he says, Oh, those parents, I have no relationship with them, and goes off, runs away, or takes to drugs, you know what is happening here.
1:12:19	T: What you're saying is, unless each one of us does it ourselves we're not really going to create much here.
1:12:26	K: So, that's what I'm saying.
1:12:27	T: It's going to be like you say in Brockwood, it's not really working that well because the parents are off living some other life... K: Totally different kind.
1:12:36	T: and the children, just because the parents are out there doesn't mean that they don't feel what is going on out there, and their parents are still a part of it. This in itself is conditioning the children, that the parents are still part of it.
1:12:49	K: No look, you and I agree, see the reason why you and I mustn't take drugs. Right? You and I see the reason, not prejudice, why alcohol is bad for one's brain. You and I see quarrelling at home is destructive. So, we have children, you and I, and so we create a school so that we are part of that. So, we create at home security, we create at school security. So, you follow what it does to one's mind, to one's being when you're completely secure? You're not violent.
1:13:54	T: This is what I'm saying, we've got to do it.
1:13:56	K: Do it, for God's sake, you've got an opportunity here.
1:14:00	T: Yes, Unless we do it I don't see the children...
1:14:04	K: The Foundation says, 'We'll create the buildings.' You follow? Create it!
1:14:13	T: Does the security itself decondition?
1:14:17	K: Partly.
1:14:20	T: Because these children come from the outside before they come to Ojai. And we seem to spend a lot of our time administering psychological first aid to them.
1:14:32	K: Yes.
1:14:34	T: Even though there may be a secure home and a secure school.
1:14:37	K: They are already conditioned by their parents, they’re already conditioned by the friends they have at home, they are already conditioned by going down to the village, seeing the drinks, the vulgarity of it all.
1:14:50	T: Television destroys them.
1:14:52	K: There it is, you've already conditioned the child. So he comes to the school conditioned.
1:15:00	T: Regardless of where he grew up. As long as he‘s been in this world, he's conditioned.
1:15:05	K: He comes conditioned.
1:15:07	T: Does that mean to say that we're supposed to create security for a conditioned being? Is that the task?
1:15:13	K: No. Let's discuss it, this problem, because it is again rather complex. Our children are conditioned whether we are secure or we are not, whether we give him security at home or not. He meets other students, all the other boys and girls, you know what they are like. So they are conditioned and we are responsible as educators and parents to see that they are not conditioned, to help them not to be conditioned.
1:15:52	T: To uncondition them. We're saying they're already coming conditioned.
1:16:01	K: I'm saying they already come to the school conditioned.
1:16:07	T: So you're saying our job is to help them not be conditioned.
1:16:11	K: Our job is, if you agree, if you see the importance that the child should not be conditioned, which means ourselves not be conditioned.
1:16:21	T: We are conditioned also. So are we saying that we want to undo that conditioning or have them see what that conditioning is?
1:16:31	K: Help him to see what that condition does, and therefore because he sees, as he understands, he'll uncondition himself. I have grown up, I haven't conditioned myself, because I see the absurdity of it, the stupidity of it, the irrationality of it. So I want to help him. So how do I do it? Not how, what shall I do?
1:17:13	T: Well, we've said we must care. We must care for the child.
1:17:16	K: No, leave it for the moment. We'll come to that. That's implied. Because I care for the child enormously.
1:17:23	T: I must have an insight into the character or being of a child.
1:17:25	K: No, not yet. Don't go into that yet. Look, I care enormously for the child. I care intensely that he should be unconditioned. Which means that I am unconditioning myself. Right? T: Yes.
1:17:43	K: I care. To me, it's a burning thing that I should be free of all this beastly stuff. So, what shall I do? How shall I tackle this problem with the student? He is my son, she is my daughter, and I'm also an educator, if I'm good at education. All parents are not good at teaching. So I happen to be good at teaching, therefore I'm in the school. So how shall I help him to uncondition himself? Not, I want to uncondition him. If I do, then I create a pattern for him. So what shall I do?
1:18:29	T: I must leave open...
1:18:32	K: Don't lay down laws, 'I must', let's find out.
1:18:39	T: I must change his mind.
1:18:41	K: No, sir. Look, first of all, do you know what it means to be conditioned?
1:18:49	T: It means to be given beforehand.
1:18:53	K: No, do I know what it means to be conditioned? Am I aware that I am conditioned?
1:19:03	T: Do I feel it? K: No, aware, do I know.
1:19:09	T: It is inescapably clear to me that I am conditioned.
1:19:13	K: I'm conditioned as a Hindu from a child. I am conditioned, etc., by a dozen incidents in Europe, in France, in Italy, and all over the world. I am conditioned. Am I aware of these conditioning influences around me and how I've been conditioned? Or do I take it for granted that I am conditioned? You understand?
1:19:50	T: I understand the difference between the two.
1:19:58	K: So, I see the influences around me, tradition, in India for thousands of years and so on, all these influences are bearing upon me all the time. That is, it raises a question which is, is it possible not to be influenced? Which means, is it possible to resist all influence? Which means, when you resist you create a barrier which becomes the conditioning. I wonder if you understand this. So, am I resisting conditioning, or am I watching the various factors, influences that are conditioning? The words the parents, the older people use, the dress, the food, the climate, the literature, the newspaper, everything is being poured into me, tremendous propaganda that is going on, to buy this, not to buy that, or to be a Catholic you must do this, you must do that. Tremendous pouring into this poor mind. I can't examine each one of them, can I, it's impossible.
1:21:48	T: It's impossible. K: Impossible. So what shall I do?
1:22:02	T: We all have the same common denominator.
1:22:06	K: Yes, quite right, so what shall I do?
1:22:11	T: If I watch my response to the reward.
1:22:16	K: Sir, I live in America, I'm brought up as an American, drink, drugs, the pleasure seeking, sexual appetites, the vulgarity, you follow, what's going on. I'm an American, and all that has conditioned me. The American way of life, the freedom to do what I like, all that has conditioned me. I'm aware of that, now how shall I be free of all that? What shall I do to be free of all that?
1:22:58	T: Ok, let's try, I'm just going to go slow, but let's first of all try laying some groundwork. We've got a group of children... K: No, not children. You see?
1:23:09	T: Ok, I know, I understand. I want to lay some ground work. We've got a group of children that are somewhere between seven and fourteen years of age, and we've got ourselves. We're both conditioned. So we say, we want to come up with an entirely different type of individual, both the children and yourself.
1:23:30	K: Absolutely, otherwise there's no point in you having such a school.
1:23:34	T: Right. So that means I don't know how to start.
1:23:37	K: We're going to do it now.
1:23:39	T: Ok, now wait. Now I'm doing it. I don't know how to start so I'm going to explore with this youngster.
1:23:45	K: That means what? Not with… you see?
1:23:48	T: With the youngster and myself. That's implied.
1:23:51	K: Not with the youngsters yet. First, if I may point out, find out if it is possible to uncondition. Find out, inquire. Now, we're doing that now. When I meet the child, student, I can then help him, help each other to further the unconditioning. Look, if I started school with the child and say, I don't know and you don't know, what happens to the child?
1:24:34	T: He feels insecure.
1:24:36	K: He immediately feels my God, what...
1:24:39	T: What am I doing here?
1:24:41	K: He feels terribly insecure. It's fairly simple, sir. So leave the child, student, out for the moment. We will bring him in later. Do you and I, are we aware that we are conditioned? Obviously you are, right? Now, what shall we do? Listen, sir. Is this awareness an intellectual concept of being conditioned, concept, or an actuality? You understand?
1:25:36	T: There's a difference. There is a big difference between the intellectual and the actual.
1:25:40	K: That's what I'm asking. A verbal acceptance, which is intellectual, a conclusion which you are accepting, or an actual fact that says, yes.
1:25:51	T: You've gone through it yourself, you've seen it.
1:25:53	K: An actual fact. It is so.
1:25:55	T: Right, there is a big difference.
1:26:10	K: So, if you are actually aware, if I am actually aware that I am conditioned, what do I mean by that word conditioned?
1:26:32	T: I mean I am what gives me pleasure. That's what I mean by conditioned, that I am what gives me pleasure.
1:26:42	K: No, not only that, what do we mean by conditioned?
1:26:48	T: All my responses are already there and I respond to any external stimuli to a set pattern.
1:26:57	K: Go deeper, look, I'm conditioned to be an American. Just take it from the beginning. The word American: the flag, the whole idea of being an American, affluent, to do what one likes, to enjoy life, don't think seriously about anything, pursue pleasure, affluent, money, money, money, pleasure, power, position. The world is like that. Not only America but everywhere is like that. So that's one of the factors of my conditioning. Am I aware of this? Am I vulgar? Am I pursuing pleasure, power, money, satisfying my sexual appetites? What I don't like, I run away from. If I don't like my wife, divorce her, marry quickly somebody else. Irresponsible, bringing destruction on the children.
1:28:20	T: So one is really caught in that.
1:28:22	K: All that is my conditioning.
1:28:24	T: That is us, yes. But one is really caught in that.
1:28:28	K: I am that. It's not, I am caught in that, that is me. What shall I do? I realise, I'm aware, I'm cognisant, I'm conscious, I am using all these words, that I am that. Then what then? If I don't understand this, how can I translate that to the child?
1:29:03	T: My whole thought pattern, just as I received this now is a conditioning, but it makes a great difference if I see that how I receive what you say is already a conditioned factor or not. If I think I see something absolutely then I'm already back in the old pattern.
1:29:23	K: Fritz, that's why I'm saying, is it a fact or a theory you accept? Is it an actuality, or a conclusion which you understand intellectually and say yes, I'm like that?
1:29:39	T: Well, if you ask this question, it is very difficult to answer.
1:29:45	K: Sir, I'm challenging you, I'm forcing you to look at it!
1:29:49	T: This is something we have to deal with ourselves also, as far as the word and the non-verbal.
1:29:53	K: So, I'm conditioned. So I say now, I realise I am conditioned because I see my whole being is pursuing pleasure. One of the factors, I'm saying. I'm brought up in a society that is so corrupt beyond words, immoral. It's immoral in India, in Europe and here, it's the same.
1:30:21	T: I know that. I can see that.
1:30:25	K: So, am I like that? You follow? Am I like that? I am. Therefore what shall I do? Go on with it or break it?
1:30:44	T: If I see it totally… K: Wait, I'm taking one thing. If I understanding one thing, I've understood the totality.
1:30:53	T: The first thing is to recognise that that's a fact, that we are all this. That's the beginning.
1:30:59	K: That's the beginning. There I'm a Protestant, that's my conditioning. And I see I'm Protestant, what is it? You follow?
1:31:12	T: Right. It's silly.
1:31:14	K: Do I see it and break it? That is, the very seeing is the breaking, not I make an effort to break. That is insight and action.
1:31:30	T: Yes, I've done that already.
1:31:31	K: So, I've broken one facet of it. Then I say, is money important to me? That's what the world wants, money, money, sex, power, position, recognition.
1:31:55	T: Oh, yes.
1:31:59	K: Then I see all this, so when I meet the child I say, Look, we're going to discuss conditioning, what it means, the word, the meaning of the word, the implications of the word. I'll spend, not one morning but for the next six months or eight months he's with me. I'm going to discuss this every morning for ten minutes before I start the usual mathematics or whatever it is.
1:32:31	T: Sir, there's a way that this can be approached from the outside and a way that it can be approached from the inside, and it seems to me pointless to be approaching it from the outside, for an individual, for me to approach it from the outside. To think, am I conditioned? I hear what you're saying about conditioning, does that apply to me?
1:32:57	K: How do you mean, approach it from the inside?
1:33:04	T: Do you mean comparing oneself to the idea of conditioning? Yes, as opposed to comparing oneself to the idea.
1:33:11	K: I don't quite understand.
1:33:12	T: Well, when I approach it from the outside I have an idea of what conditioning is and I compare myself to that. When I approach it from the inside, I simply see that that's what I am.
1:33:24	K: That's all, it's the same.
1:33:26	T: But when I when I talk with somebody else about that,
1:33:29	K: That's the expression of the outside.
1:33:35	T: the child doesn't want to hear that.
1:33:37	K: No, I'm not going to talk to him that way. Look, first of all, the word is not the thing, right?
1:33:49	T: Yes.
1:33:52	K: Let's be quite clear. The word 'tree' is not the tree. So, I describe the tree, but the description is not the tree. Right? T: Right.
1:34:07	K: But you take the description as being outside.
1:34:13	T: Or else I look at a tree.
1:34:14	K: Yes, or look at it, but whereas the description is the outside, the perception is the inside.
1:34:22	T: Yes.
1:34:23	K: The perception is I am conditioned. Then the outside, I observe how it has come about, and I see how it has come about, my parents, the whole business, education, everything. So it is really, if I may point out, it is neither inside or outside, it's all one movement, like the sea going out and coming in, ebb and flow.
1:35:01	T: It presupposes that the child cares about the inside, cares to perceive that area.
1:35:10	K: Yes, sir.
1:35:11	T: And often that isn't the case.
1:35:17	K: He may see it instantly without my even talking. By one word he may see it. Then if he sees it, I'll ask him, now you've seen it, how will you proceed to unravel yourself, get out of it?
1:35:35	T: But can you ask an eight year old child that?
1:35:37	K: I wouldn't talk like this to a child. It would be too absurd, he wouldn't understand all of it. But we talk together because we are grown up, we're supposed to be grown up, supposed to have words, supposed to be intellectual, and all the rest of it, so I'm using these words. I say, what shall I do when I realise inwardly and outwardly, which is the same, I realise that I'm conditioned? If I actually realise then the thing is finished.
1:36:16	T: Then you need to approach the child.
1:36:21	K: If I actually realise that being a Hindu is a conditioning, actually realise it, because it's separate and all the rest of it, it's finished.
1:36:33	T: Ok, but I'm saying now that you've seen that and it's finished for you, then you have this child in front of you.
1:36:40	K: Wait, therefore I'll proceed. How shall I help him to understand this immense problem?
1:36:48	T: That's the question I thought we were addressing quite a while ago.
1:36:50	K: We'll do it, we're doing it now. How shall I do it? How shall I approach this problem with the child?
1:37:01	T: Having seen a number of things, the nature of your conditioning and so forth.
1:37:06	K: Tell me, how do I approach this with a student in front of me?
1:37:12	T: You know the student is conditioned.
1:37:14	K: No, they won't listen.
1:37:16	T: I said you know the student is conditioned.
1:37:18	K: Of course they are conditioned.
1:37:20	T: And because he is conditioned he doesn't want to listen.
1:37:22	K: No, he doesn't know even.
1:37:25	T: Ok, but we're saying from the outside we can see because he's conditioned he won't listen.
1:37:31	K: No, I understand that.
1:37:33	T: Because we've looked into conditioning ourselves and we've seen what conditioning does.
1:37:36	K: I take that. Because he is conditioned he won't listen. So what shall I do? He’s looking out of the window when I'm talking.
1:37:45	K: So I say, look out of the window but look with all your eyes.
1:37:57	T: And then he gets tired of that, so he goes to the next thing.
1:38:02	K: You're missing my point. I say to him, I want to talk to him about conditioning. But he doesn't want to listen to it.
1:38:11	T: I understand that.
1:38:12	K: So he's looking out of the window. I see him looking out of the window. I say now, look out of the window, and look at all the shapes and the colours and the shadows. Are you seeing all that?
1:38:32	T: Then the child doesn't look. Because as soon as I verbally say, hey, are you seeing that, are you looking at it?
1:38:40	K: No, I don't say that. Please, for God's sake. When he's not listening to me and is looking out the window, I am not concerned that he should listen to me.
1:38:55	T: I understand that.
1:38:56	K: I'm concerned that he should look out of the window and I'm helping him to look out of the window so clearly.
1:39:07	T: But you're using words, or you're pointing, you're doing something to get him to look, right?
1:39:13	K: No, I'm helping him to look out of the window.
1:39:16	T: Ok, you're pointing. K: I'm not pointing.
1:39:19	T: Or whatever you want to call it. Helping him.
1:39:21	K: You see, there are two different things. Please listen. I want to talk about unconditioning and he wants to look out of the window. So I put my own desire to talk about unconditioning aside. I say, now let's both look at that.
1:39:42	T: Go where he is, not where you want him to be.
1:39:45	K: Both of us, let's look.
1:39:46	T: Right, and then go with that. Yes, I see that.
1:39:52	K: So, I help him to look at the shadows, the beauty of the light, the various… you follow? He gets interested. You're missing the point. He gets interested.
1:40:02	T: I understand what you're saying, but say in fact that you have a youngster that doesn't look at anything.
1:40:10	K: Sir, he's looking at something, at a picture book, he is listening to his next neighbour talking, he is doing something. T: Yes.
1:40:27	K: So I say, let's both of us do it together. I've forgot my unconditioning, I'm not interested.
1:40:33	T: Got it. Understood.
1:40:36	K: So, when I talk about my conditioning, he's interested, because I've helped him to look at whatever he's looking at. Oh, you don't see all this.
1:40:49	T: I see that. We have to go where they are. We can't have these ideas of what we want. We have to see where they are, find out where they’re coming from and go there with them.
1:40:59	K: He wants to look out of the window.
1:41:00	T: And share it together. Well then do that, yes. Or if he wants to talk about Krishnamurti, talk to him about Krishnamurti.
1:41:08	K: When he says, do look at it, when he's looking out of the window and I want to talk to him about unconditioning, I forget my unconditioning and we both look. So what does it do to him? No, do it, watch it. Don't answer it, watch what it does.
1:41:30	T: You're doing it together. K: No.
1:41:32	K: What is happening? He is becoming attentive.
1:41:36	T: Yes, right. K: You miss it, don't agree.
1:41:39	K: He becomes attentive because we both are looking at it. He's interested in it, I'm interested in it, so he becomes attentive. So, I've helped him to be attentive. When he is looking at the microphone, I say, let's both look. Attentive. So, when I talk about conditioning, he's attentive. That's all.
1:42:07	T: And the teacher has disappeared.
1:42:12	K: When I tell him, don't look out of the window, that's a resistance, the whole thing is gone.
1:42:18	T: And sometimes when children don't want to listen it's because that's what they’ve been told. You listen to me now, attend me, and that's when they resist.
1:42:37	T: If you have children coming to the school and you're going to say, 'Look, see,' with them, you're doing this with them.
1:42:45	K: I'm not doing anything with them.
1:42:49	T: You're saying, see what you're looking at.
1:42:52	K: I am doing what they want to do.
1:42:54	T: Ok, that's what I meant. Maybe I didn't use the right words but that's what I meant. You are doing what they want to do and they want to wrestle with one another.
1:43:03	K: I say, all right, let's find out all about wrestling, what is implied in wrestling.
1:43:10	K: Sir, listen what is implied in wrestling, angry, brutal, let's find out what it means, pay attention to it. You're missing this.
1:43:26	T: I understand what you're saying, but the youngster cuts you off before you can even ask or inquire into what the wrestling is with him.
1:43:34	K: Look, what is happening now between us all? You are my students, right? You're listening to me, aren’t you? Right?
1:43:57	K: Because I am passionately interested in looking, when you're looking, I'm looking too. I'm passionately interested to see the light, the shadows, what the beauty of the line is. What is it I want, so that he has capacity to attend.
1:44:18	T: Yes, I understand.
1:44:20	K: That's all.
1:44:24	T: So there is no such thing as attending to the wrong thing.
1:44:28	K: No, attending. T: Yes.
1:44:31	K: When I talk, he attends.
1:44:40	T: Perhaps very quickly we could try taking a look at this, the nature of attention. Just very quickly, maybe I could say, Let's see, if one is not attending, they’re indulging in their own thought.
1:44:59	K: But you're not attending.
1:45:04	T: So I'm indulging...
1:45:06	K: I am talking and you're not attending. You are attending to your own thoughts. Sorry, I'm not criticising, sir.
1:45:19	T: I understand that. I'm not sure that's the case.
1:45:24	K: If you are attending to what I'm saying, you'll follow it right through. You wouldn't say, well, I don't understand.
1:45:33	T: But I haven't said that I don't understand. I have followed you through.
1:45:38	K: No, look, we both are concerned with unconditioning, right?
1:45:43	T: Yes.
1:45:46	K: Are you giving your whole attention to the problem? Or you have reservations, or you say, no it is not possible, it is possible, you are poking around.
1:46:03	T: I'm giving my whole attention to it.
1:46:05	K: To what? T: To your speaking. To our searching. K: No. Are you giving your whole attention to the question, question of conditioning? You don't know what it means, but you say, I'm giving my attention to it. That means you are excluding your own personal conclusions, prejudices, opinions, you are attending to something. So you put away your prejudices and I put away my prejudices. I don't know. We start both of us not knowing.
1:46:54	T: I understand that.
1:46:56	K: Are you doing it?
1:46:58	T: Yes.
1:46:59	K: So, if you say I am, we both then look at that problem, that question of unconditioning or conditioning. So we say, what is this conditioning? Why has humanity through the ages, conditioned itself? Why? From father to son, group to group, community to community. Why? Why has the mind accepted it? Because they want security. So, do I want security that way? Is that what my mind is seeking?
1:48:08	T: What was your answer to why they're doing this?
1:48:12	K: Why have human beings accepted the conditioning?
1:48:15	T: I understand the question, I didn’t understand your answer.
1:48:18	K: I'm putting the question. Why have human beings accepted it? Why have human being said for two thousand years Christ, Christ, Jesus, Jesus, why? The myth of it.
1:48:41	T: I don't think I know the answer to that. Now you said it was for security?
1:48:44	K: No. Human minds demand security. I believe in a myth. It may be real, it may be false, it may not have taken place at all, but I believe in that myth, because there I feel safe in that. It may be a neurotic belief, it may be truthful.
1:49:10	T: But some authority.
1:49:11	K: That's it, authority and the desire to be safe psychologically in some field. I know my wife, therefore I'm secure.
1:49:26	T: And the same goes with a concept. You might have some concept in your mind and you find security in that. It's the words that give you security.
1:49:33	K: What is the time, sir?
1:49:35	T: Almost one o'clock.
1:49:37	K: I think we'd better stop, don't you?