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OJ77DT2 - Is it possible to bring about a different human being through right education?
Ojai, California - 25 March 1977
Discussion with Teachers 2



0:43 Krishnamurti: This is an educational business, isn't it? Right. First I would like to ask, if I may, why we are all being so educated. What is the purpose of education? Why are we educated at all? And we are asking this question because one sees what is happening in the world, the wilderness of the world, the great catastrophes that are taking place, violence, terrorism – you know, all that – immoral, a society that is thoroughly immoral. So one asks: what is the meaning of education, why are we educated, and will all education lead to this chaos? I think that is a fundamental question which one should ask. Will our children, our students, grow up to be like the rest of the world: well-educated academically, and totally disregard the other parts of human existence, the psychological, inward cultivation and flowering of all that? I do not know how you would answer this question if put to you.
3:14 Is education concerned with only one part of the human existence, that is, the cultivation of memory, which is called knowledge, gathering information, and according to that information, knowledge, act efficiently, sanely, rationally, objectively? Or with that knowledge become mischievous in the world, which apparently is what is going on now. Are we concerned with partial cultivation of the mind and not at all concerned with the whole of the human existence? Fears, sorrows, the ending of sorrow, love, compassion, all that is involved, it seems to me, in the proper kind of education. But now, we are only concerned – as it appears, and I may be wrong – that we give our minds to the partial cultivation of human beings. If that is so, that is, we are not cultivating the whole of a human being but only a very small part of it, then is it possible to consider, go into this question, of the flowering of human goodness? Is that possible in a school, through college and so on? It seems to me that is the most important thing and not merely cultivating the brain along a particular line.
6:00 Is it possible, psychologically, inwardly, under the skin as it were, to bring about a different human being through right kind of education? A human being who has technical knowledge and so acts skilfully in a world in which he has to live, earn a livelihood and so on, but also cultivate the unexplored psychological ground so that out of that cultivation the flowering of goodness can come into being. Is that at all possible in a school, with parents who are concerned? Is it possible to bring about this, or are we everlastingly committed to one pattern of activity and disregard the rest? I think this is a very serious question when you are concerned with education the total disregard, as it appears right throughout the world, wherever one goes, most human beings are concerned only with the cultivation of that part of the brain which is memory, so that that memory can be used skilfully or unskilfully in earning a livelihood. The rest of the human mind is totally disregarded. That is what I would like to discuss, if we may, whether the parents are interested in this, whether the school here is concerned with that, and can there be a group of people who are – I won't use the word 'dedicated', a rather strong word – who are deeply concerned with the total cultivation of a human mind. The mind includes the physiological as well as psychological states. After saying that, can we discuss round this?
9:41 If I was a parent, what would I be concerned with? In an overpopulated world, for any one particular job there are thousands of applications – perhaps not in America but the rest of the world, if you go to India you see this phenomena. A PhD offered to be a cook in India. Not that to be a cook is wrong but spending years of study, college, university and so on, getting a degree, not finding a job and becoming a cook. This is happening the world over. I don't know if you are aware of all these things. And if I was a parent what should I do? How can I help my son or my daughter to demand not only the excellence of technological knowledge but also the excellence of moral behaviour, excellence in my relationship with others, and excellence in the cultivation of love? I would demand that of a school or a college or a university. If they do not supply all that, what shall I do? Apparently the world is not concerned with all that, the universities are not concerned with it, colleges and schools, it has no meaning to them. But I have a couple of children and I love them and I want them to be totally different human beings, not the mediocrity of the world. What shall I do? You understand, sirs? That is our problem. What is my responsibility? If you say, 'I don't have children', that is a different matter, but unfortunately or fortunately we have children. What shall I do with them? We take care of them with such great care when they are babies, with such pain, with such tenderness and so on, and after the age of five or six or seven they disappear, we have lost them – they are conditioned by the rest of the children, the school conditioned them much more, and so on, right through life, right through university, and they are caught in a pattern which seems so difficult to break through. So what is my responsibility as a parent? If I take the responsibility really very seriously, what is a parent to do, if he demands this? And most parents unfortunately – I may be wrong – do not want all this. They want their children, especially in the West and the East, not America, to have a good degree, to get a job if they can, and settle down to the good old pattern of life, the establishment. You may overthrow the old establishment but you can form another new establishment. The new becomes the old and so on, the pattern is repeated over and over again, whether it is the communist world or in the democratic world, and all the rest of it. One has observed this very closely. If you travel, as the speaker does, India, Europe and America and other parts of the world, you see this phenomenon going on, endlessly. Tradition, religious conditioning, or when you come to the West here, neither tradition nor discipline, nothing, they are allowed to do what they want. That is psychological freedom, as they call it. You know this pattern very well. And I have two daughters, two children, what am I to do? Throw them to the wolves? I can't keep them at home, I haven't the time. I have to go out and earn a livelihood, make money, supply, but my wife also wants to go out, she says, 'I don't want the burden, the boredom of having children.' Right? You see, that is what is happening here in this country. So what is my responsibility and your responsibility if you have children? Are we concerned at all with society? And the transformation of that society? As it is, it is greatly immoral and my children will become like them, will adapt themselves to a society which says kill and be killed. The whole pattern is this.
18:27 Q: Sir, it seems as though our responsibility is to raise the children rightly. However, we often don't know how to do that. I am not asking for a method or a technique or approach, but oftentimes when we are confronted with the children directly we see insensitivity and you try to approach that and you become nagging, it is like you are nagging the children because you see it and you are in relationship...
19:08 K: Sir, to answer that question, discuss it: does the educator need education? Does the educator need to be educated? Or he thinks – not you, sir – or does he think he knows all about it? He has got his ideas, his opinions, his judgements, his conditioning – you follow my question? – and so you condition him as well as the society, his parents, his other students and so on, he is moulded and shaped and brought out into some extraordinary, ugly human being. The student comes conditioned and the teacher comes conditioned. Right? What shall we do? That is the problem. What shall we do?
20:32 Q: If I may ask, why are we only concerned about the education of children? Education in a very broad sense.
20:38 K: That is what we are doing now.
20:41 Q: I think it is really unseparable from the parents' education, from our own education, if you wish. I think we have to see ourself and have to face ourselves, not only in the relationship to the children but everybody around. I feel that our true moral, virtue lies in: educate, teach and the process of learning itself, in ourselves.
21:20 K: I understand, sir. I am asking. The parents are conditioned and they condition the children. His other friends and age condition him. So the parent is conditioned, the educator is conditioned, the children are conditioned – right? Now, how do we get out of this dilemma? Would it be possible for the teacher, for the educator and the parent to come off their pedestal as parents and teachers, and explain to these children or to the student that you are conditioned and I am conditioned, let us see if it is possible for both of us to uncondition ourselves. Not wait till I uncondition myself, and then – that is an impossible position, but to acknowledge to the student that he is conditioned and that the educator is conditioned. You establish a totally different relationship, don't you, with the child, with the student. So you go into this whole problem of being conditioned. Will the educator do that, or the parent do that? It comes to the same thing because the parent is really an educator. Together with the parent, with the teacher, with the educator and the student, go into this problem together.
23:42 Q: In this school some of the children who I work with are five years old.
23:49 Q: They don't understand.

K: Yes, they are 5 years old. You can't discuss with them, poor things.
23:54 Q: And I don't want to continually discuss with them.
23:57 K: No, you can't discuss this thing. Their brains won't stand this.
24:02 Q: Even at seven.
24:04 K: But you can create an atmosphere in which they begin to perceive certain things without being told actually, verbally.
24:16 Q: If you are five or seven there is some advantage you said, intellectually, it is perhaps possible because they haven't lived as long and are not as conditioned. If someone is 5 or 2 or 7 you can't discuss intellectually, perhaps, but you can learn a lot because it may happen, since they have lived shorter, and if they have been lucky, that they are not going to be as conditioned.
24:37 K: Yes, sir.

Q: Even if you can't discuss it.
24:40 K: That is, both the parent, the student and the educator are all concerned, not just the educator. Can we do this? That implies – I won't mention – what does it imply, sir?
25:14 Q: Well you did mention that it implies coming off the pedestal, but if we come off the pedestal...
25:19 K: No, what is implied when the parent, the educator and the student or the children are concerned with this central issue? Because otherwise we become like machines, repeating, repeating, repeating, perhaps in a different pattern but it is still within the area of making patterns and living within those patterns. So how do we approach this problem? Because when I am in India and in other parts of the world, there are schools, Brockwood and in India, we discuss this question very, very seriously with the older children, older students. Are we concerned with the unfolding of our own consciousness as well as the student and the parent? Are we concerned with the exploration of our consciousness, which is conditioned – right? Not according to Freud and the latest psychologist who writes half a dozen books and trots out a new theory.
27:10 Q: I feel that in our everyday activities one thing is inevitable, that is, that we relate. I may even claim generally that human action is relationship. And through this relationship we relate to our children, we relate to others, we relate to the material around our senses, and so on. But during and within this relationship there is an action taking place within our own mind and one has to aware of it, or become aware of it at the beginning, and see what takes place. Let's call it outward, which is a certain sort of relationship, as well as inward, that is, what is taking place within our own mind. And if one does that in relationship to the child he will feel, he will come upon it, maybe together with the child, what that particular relationship for that event, for that action, really contains, what its reality, what its actuality is. And once seeing in himself, will relate to the children, in which the children have an opportunity, a potential to possibly see himself. But if he does or not we do not know and we may be concerned about it, yet that action has to take place within the child. The only thing I can do is relate to the child, with my own actions being complete.
28:52 K: Sir, what is complete action? What is action which is whole?
29:04 Q: As I see, when there is a harmony within the body, mind, and what I call this complimentary something, if that takes place, there is an action which through relationship to others brings its own...
29:23 K: Yes. But that generally doesn't take place. This is a theory, isn't it?
29:28 Q: Generally true that in most of the kids it doesn't take place.
29:33 K: What shall we do? My question is: you are a parent, there are your children, the educator. How shall we work together, as an educator, student, parent, how shall we work together? Together – because you are responsible for him as well as the educator. How shall we work together or co-operate together to bring about a different mind, a different quality of a human being? If you have a theory and I have another theory we shall be at each other's head, and the poor child suffers. This is generally what happens. The parent want something, the mother wants something else and the teacher wants totally something else, he is caught between them all, he is so utterly confused. He gives it up at the end and runs away or does some kind of wild thing. So we are working together, if that is a fact, without theories, without my having a conclusion and you having a different conclusion, and if I have it, I become aware of it and put it aside, and you do the same and the educator does the same, then we can work together. But we are not aware that we have got theories, conclusions, opinions, judgements and very obstinate about our own ideas, therefore there is constant contradiction going on, and the child suffers. So what shall we do? The fact, not a theory. What shall we do together, co-operate, help each other to see that the parent, the student, the educator bring about, not only in the student but in themselves, a different quality of mind and human behaviour and so on, so on? Or do you think this is utterly impossible? If it is utterly impossible then the game is up, you throw in the sponge and carry on. But if it is possible, as I think it is possible, what shall we do then? You, the parent, the educator, and the student, what is our chief concern? What is our main demand of each other, of the child? What would you say, sirs and ladies? Or should I say ladies first and sirs afterwards? What shall we do? David Moody: You ask also what is our chief concern, in terms of the actual functioning of the school on a daily basis.
33:49 K: Before the function of the school let's get at the principle of it, at the root of it. What shall we do: you are a teacher, I am a parent, and we are both concerned to work together, both concerned not to condition the child, to help the child to flower, to be a totally different human being, not to produce a mediocre – etc. What shall we do? Don't say, what shall we do about little things.
34:30 DM: No, I am not. I am trying to get to a principle.
34:33 K: Get to the root of it first, together.
34:36 DM: When we are actually functioning in the school – I'll get to a principle – the problem which confronts us is the child's behavior and what shall we do about the child's behaviour. It seems to be a question of action. The child's action and our action. When you ask 'what shall we do', is this the same as asking what is right action?
35:03 K: What shall we do, there it is. You are a teacher, there is the student. How shall we meet this problem?
35:18 Q: By facing it moment to moment. Maybe with the child, with the other parent, in everyday action. Every time do this, be concerned. And concern would mean more than being concerned of one given subject, but subjects as they come along. Maybe others raise it, maybe the child raises it, maybe my action, a consequence of my action, raises it, but at the time when I face it, that facing may need some explanation. Then I do go to the root of it as the circumstance offers it do so. The circumstance may be the participation of the child himself and that it may set a tone, may set a depth to the expression of it. Not the depth as far as I am going but the expression of it. I think this moment to moment facing it, through the relationship to the child or other parents, is teaching. It already includes education. I don't think one has to go any further than that. Otherwise the he already thinks there is a need to help, and I think then the question of why one has to help another comes up. I think through relationship help comes on its own.
36:44 K: Sir, you have used the word, repeated the word 'relationship'. What does it mean?
36:53 Q: I think every action, what we can explain, what we can see, what we can touch, expresses a relatedness.
37:05 K: Yes, but what do you mean when you say relationship with the student, or with your children, or with the other parents who are working together? What do you mean by that word? The word, the meaning of that word, the significance, the depth of that word, what does it mean?
37:28 Q: To me it means the subject which may come up, the way as I approach the subject together with the child or with the parents, expresses the type of approach.
37:39 K: No, I think we are not understanding each other. I am asking the actual meaning of the word.
37:50 Q: Isn't it communication? We have complete communication?
37:56 Q: And the effect on one another, the actual reaction.
38:00 Q: Or to see the child as he really is, care enough to see him as he is, not doing something with him or quiet or what you think he should be.
38:13 Q: I use the word that we do relate, because action takes place from the child and I also.
38:22 K: No, forgive me, you are not answering my question. What do you mean by that word, the content of that word, the significance, the depth of that word itself, not outward expression of it? I am related, I have two children. A wife and two children. What is my relationship to them? Actually, not theoretical. Not hypothetical but actual relationship.
38:57 Q: What should it be, you ask?
39:00 K: What is the actual daily relationship between the mother, the father and their children? The actual.
39:17 Q: There are various states of changes within the two children and the mother, and those changes from instant to instant have a connection to one another. There is talking to one another, there is doing things, and affecting each other, act on one spoiling the other, requesting one from the other – all this means relating to one another.
39:55 K: Is that an actual fact, sir? Fact – the actuality of daily relationship between the mother, the father and the student, and therefore the teacher, the educator and so on. what is the actual daily relationship? The parent goes off to earn a livelihood – right? he has very little time for the child. He gets home tired. The mother goes off, also earning money. The children are sent off to a school. So where is the relationship?
40:45 Q: Yes, I can see your point, that that is a word used for the activities...
40:51 K: I mean, it has no meaning.

Q: Right. There is another type of relationship in which everything relates to everything.
41:00 K: It has no meaning when I say, the parent, my children, he goes off, she goes off, especially in this country, and leave the children to the school. They come home tired, rather annoyed with each other, irritable, send off the children, either to the television – you follow? I am afraid we use that word rather glibly saying we are related, we are all – etc. But the actual fact is we are not. And here the parent, the teacher and the student, we are trying to establish a real relationship. Which means we are deeply concerned with our children.
42:04 Q: This question started with: what do we do? Right? Now, that is hard. But first I want to get clear what we are trying to do, and I understand that better. I find, the word I would use is 'dissolve'.
42:17 K: Dissolve?

Q: Well, because what happens is – I am thinking now of teaching but it doesn't matter whether it is at the home – the idea is you come in with all this garbage or something and I don't know how to set up a school to get that and I don't know how to do it as much as I'd like or at all, but at least I am going to be clear about the phenomenon I want and it is some dissolving.

K: Let's do that.
42:38 Q: Like if there is a two-year-old there and I am here, drop that. He is two, I am here, I am the parent. If you can dissolve all the stuff then the actions and the principles seem to follow very naturally. So the problem seems to be dissolve all this stuff.
42:54 K: All right. Let's use that word 'dissolve' if you like, put aside, wash away, wipe away. Which means what? Wipe away your peculiar behaviour.
43:12 Q: I am sorry, I didn't hear.
43:14 K: Wipe away your particular form of behaviour.
43:18 Q: Right – and opinions and ideas.

K: Wipe away.

Q: Okay.
43:23 K: And the mother wipes away, and the teacher wipes away, then we can work together. That is, I drink, I smoke, I take drugs, I want my own delights, I have my own peculiar...
43:43 Q: But you are a little kiddie and I have to teach you or whatever.
43:49 K: And you as a teacher say, sorry, that is all garbage, throw it out, and I can't give it up. This is the position we are in. Each of us carries a certain kind of garbage – if you like to use that word – and we refuse to throw away the garbage.
44:17 Q: Oh, right.
44:21 K: But if we are concerned with the child, with bringing about a different kind of human being – concerned – then I will throw away my garbage instantly. I won't be bothered with the garbage because my intention is to...
44:43 Q: Okay, but wait, it is a little more complicated. I am just trying to go with direct experience...
44:50 K: I want the extremes, I don't want to be mediocre, keep a little bit of garbage for myself and throw away...
44:57 Q: No, but that is too moralistic or puritanical.
45:00 K: No, that is not puritanical. I refuse to be categorised.
45:04 Q: Please let me say, the phenomenon I find is that, one is able to throw off some of the garbage, then they inter-react with other people and something happens, in that thing that helps you to throw off some more.
45:21 K: If I want to throw away a little bit of my garbage, I do throw away a little bit, you will regard me as a little bit of a crank.
45:31 Q: Crank?

K: Crank – a little bit odd, if I don't drink, if I don't smoke, if I don't take drugs, if I don't chase girls – you follow? You say, poor chap, what is wrong with this man?
45:49 Q: But let me say my point. I am just trying to go with experience. It is not a point, I am just trying to refer to experience. If one throws off some of the stuff and if that is all that happens, usually it just comes back. But if one throws off some of the stuff and then gets in a circumstance with the child or with the school or anything where there some dissolving happens, then some experience has happened that makes one throw off some more.
46:14 K: Yes, but are we willing, are we aware of the garbage that we have collected?
46:21 Q: Well, okay. What I find is if you become aware of some of it...
46:25 K: But do it – not 'if'. Not 'if'. Theoretically it has no meaning.
46:34 Q: I am talking about direct experience, it is not theoretical. I am saying you throw off some and then...
46:41 K: Sir, we are doing the same. Have we parents, who are concerned with the children and so on, are we first of all aware of our garbage? Or do we say, 'it is perfectly all right'? Are we aware of our garbage? Are we aware that some of it must go, or all of it must go? Do we want that?
47:09 Q: I guess you have to ask everybody.
47:11 K: That is the problem. The garbage is I am a Catholic, I am a Protestant, I am a this, I am that, and I must have smoke, whiskey, this and that – that is my garbage.

Q: Right.
47:24 K: And how will you let all that go to create this? That is it – none of us are willing to do that. We don't want to face this thing. We want to keep our little garbage to ourselves.
47:43 Q: It is either a question of just not knowing sometimes what is garbage and what isn't.
47:48 K: Garbage is garbage, it smells. You don't have to know.
47:55 Q: But the garbage you mentioned is smoking, drinking...
47:58 K: No, that is very small stuff.
48:01 Q: Right. Those are very easy things to see. You can look and you say, okay, I've been raised a Catholic. I don't want to be. But most of the garbage isn't that, it is much more subtle, you don't see it.
48:12 K: it is much more subtle, much more deep.
48:15 Q: That is the problem.

K: Wait. But first of all, have we even discarded, dissolved, put aside the superficial garbage? Then we can proceed to the other. But holding on to the superficial garbage and trying to go into... it becomes rather silly. So let's come back. I don't want to become a puritanical tyrant about all this but I am just saying: what shall we do? Here is a problem. The parent is conditioned – if you don't like to use that word 'conditioned' – has collected a lot of garbage, because he is educated that way. The mother is educated, she has got her garbage and the educator has his, and you give that to your children. What shall we do?
49:29 Q: See it so clearly that we don't want the garbage, that we get rid of the garbage. That we see it and we want to see it, we keep on seeing it, and we are aware of it, we are more aware of it, and we are more sensitive, and then we get rid of more garbage, and we are more sensitive, and now and we are seeing it and we are feeling. And we want to be in relationship with that child, we want to be in relationship with each other. We put it in order. And we get some energy and maybe we see more.
49:55 K: Yes, but what happens? You are trying to get rid of the garbage, I as an educator am not clear what the garbage is in myself, and together we are helping the child not to collect garbage. Right? What shall we do? Actually, don't theorise about it. I have thrown off a great deal of garbage – sorry to use that word, it is rather an ugly word – a great deal of this rubbish I have collected, and the educator is not aware of it even. You understand?

Q: Not aware of...
50:45 K: Of the garbage, the rubbish he has collected. And we have the child. I am asking: how do you deal with this problem? Not theoretically but actually. You have got a school, you have got a parent, you have got an educator and children.
51:05 Q: Sir, can we deal with anything other than what there is right now, right now here? And the very fact that we are raising this question and trying to throw away garbage or whatever it is called this time, is the very thing which we can face. This one thing that in the very present time, right now, this very one thing that I want to grasp: what is this garbage, what are these things in my mind which I want to throw away? So what I can face is my very present wanting of doing something.
51:37 K: Yes, but what I am asking is this: is the parent, the teacher – not the child yet, he is too small – are they prepared to help each other to throw away some of the rubbish?
51:55 Q: In this school?
51:56 K: This is the school. Here we are.
52:00 Q: No.
52:03 K: You mean you don't want to?
52:05 Q: No, you said are they prepared to, and I say no.
52:08 K: That is just it.
52:10 Q: Well, because there is no need for preparation. We even do it now, and we do it the next time, when we go home and we do it there and we keep doing it, throwing away. The only thing which can be thrown away is what there is right now. That is the only thing we can face. We cannot face what we are going to do with the children or what we have done with the children.
52:29 K: Sir, let's make it much simpler, may I? Are you prepared – I am not asking you personally – are we prepared – because we are responsible for the children – not to throw on them our rubbish which we have collected. Are we prepared, you as the parent, I as the educator, together, help each other to throw away the rubbish which we have collected, now, today, this morning? If not, as the educator, as the parent, we are going to help that boy or girl to collect rubbish. So are we, this morning, parents, teachers, prepared to say, well, my rubbish is this, help me to clear it out. That is why I say, you are conditioned, the child is conditioned – which is the rubbish, garbage - and the educator is conditioned. So we say: I am conditioned, you are conditioned, let's talk about it, let's go into it, wipe it out as we go along, not take hours, days, months, years – wipe it out as we go along. Are you prepared for it? Do you want this? Not a group therapy, that is an abomination.
54:21 Q: But if you want it, I think you have to face not only that rubbish but right after it, your own wanting. This very urge which may come up while we are talking.
54:31 K: We'll do that now, sir.

Q: Okay.
54:38 K: Are we prepared for it, all together? Together, it is a family, it is a collective thing, this. If in a family, the mother says, 'I am not prepared to throw away my rubbish' and the father says, 'I am doing it' – there is going to be a battle.
55:00 Q: Can you explain how this can be done without getting into a group therapy thing?
55:04 K: I'll show you. First of all... It is simple. I'll show you. You can do it. But are we prepared to do it? Or you are holding back a little bit of the garbage you collected? I want my children – 'want' in quotes – I want my children not to collect garbage of any kind: the Indian garbage, the Hindu garbage, the Catholic garbage, the American – you follow? – I don't want him to have any garbage, so that he can flower in goodness, in beauty, something worthwhile. So, are we prepared for this? If you are then our question is: first, are we aware of the garbage? I am an educator and you are the parent. In the school, I say look, in discussing, I want to become aware of my garbage. In having a dialogue with you, a conversation with you, I become aware of this collection of rubbish I have gathered. Can we do that, parent and the teacher? This is what our position is now. I happen to be the teacher, the educator, and you happen to be the children. Or vice versa, it doesn't matter.
57:14 Q: That seems to imply a certain kind of bluntness...
57:18 K: What Sir?
57:20 Q: It seems to imply a certain kind of bluntness, blunt, directness, that I am not sure people are...
57:27 K: No, not brutal directness but, you know, two friends who are concerned about something and they will discuss it.
57:45 Q: In organisations there seems to be a lot of fear.
57:50 K: Sir, there is nothing to be afraid in this organisation because there is nothing here. Just beginning. You see, you are all escaping. You don't face the thing and say, look, I have got garbage, let's talk about it, let's have a dialogue, see if we can put aside some of it. One of the garbages is having opinions.
58:24 K: Right?

Q: Right.
58:28 K: What the school should be, etc. – opinions, which have nothing to do with fact. Right? Now, can you throw away opinions and face facts absolutely, all the time?
58:52 Q: Sometimes it is hard to...

K: No, not 'hard'.
58:55 Q: No, not to throw away but to know. I mean, most people take their opinions as being facts.
59:01 K: No, unless you are neurotic.
59:06 Q: Well then there are a lot of neurotics. So how do you know?
59:11 K: Then it is quite a different problem. You know what opinion is. Coming to a conclusion about something you know nothing about.
59:24 Q: No, I don't accept that, I am sorry. There are vegetarians who say you must be a vegetarian. But there are facts on both sides...
59:35 K: Wait, I know, please. First of all, I am not talking about vegetarians, non-vegetarians. I am talking about you, or X here in this room, having opinions, which is part of the garbage. Saying that the school must be this, or why do you wear blue trousers – whatever it is. Opinions. Don't we have a collection of opinions? Political opinions, religious opinions. Can we discard them? Which means also judgement. I prefer this guru to that guru – that is a judgement.
1:00:48 Q: Well, if I share my garbage I am afraid that I am going to be judged.
1:00:54 K: No. Who cares? If you judge me because I throw away my garbage, and call me loony, a bit off his head, I don't care. I am not afraid of you calling me nutty, or whatever you call me. I don't mind because I know facts. I am only dealing with facts and nothing else. Sir, look, if I am envious, I know I am envious, right? That is part of the garbage. I don't find explanation or evasions or avoidance of the fact. I say yes, I am greedy, envious. Then we can deal with it, you can tackle it together. But if you say, well, I am not quite sure I am envious. I like being envious. Our whole society is based on that principle. No? So will you face that fact that you are envious? You know, it is a very complex problem, envy, it is a deep-rooted problem. Envy implies the whole idea of progress. No? Reaching something because others have reached. Envy implies imitation, conformity – all that is involved in envy. So can you, can we become aware of that, go into it and wipe it out, not play with it everlastingly? Then I will deal with my student quite differently. I will tell him, if I can argue with him, because we have got too small children, you can't argue, but as they grow up I'll discuss with him the whole problem. I know what it means to be envious. You are envious. Let's discuss about it, let's talk about it, see what is implied in it, what envy has done in the world. The whole commercial world is envious, is based on envy. You don't see all this. Consumerism is that. And also, if you want to go much more deeply into the whole problem: I am a parent. I love my children. Right? I think I do. I am not going to say, 'Yes, I love my children.' I think I do. What does it mean? What does it actually mean, not theoretically, not what I would like it to mean, but actually in daily life what does it mean? I spoil them at first. They are toys, they are dolls, you follow? All that business goes on. And I love them. Do you? Do we? Do you think if we loved them the society would be like this? Yes sir, that is what I am saying. As educators, as parents, are we really concerned with this thing? And it is my job and your job to see we are concerned. As a human being I am concerned. That is why I hope the school will be something different. I don't want my children to grow up, take drugs, etc. – on one side, or go off with some guru, become caught in his absurdities, or end up as a soldier to be killed. You follow? I am afraid with us it is mediocrity that prevents us having passion about this. So let's begin again, shall we? What shall we do? Together we are going to build a school. Together we are going to help each other and the children, students, to see that they are not mediocre. Mark Lee: Could we go further into this question of the relationship between the people who are concerned, supposedly concerned with this school? I think the easier questions are the questions of how to deal with the children, how to deal with mediocrity, etc., but it seems to me the deeper question is this feeling of working at this together; what are the relationships between the people who are responsible?
1:07:52 K: Look, Mark Lee, you and I are working together. Right? We are actually working together. What is our relationship? Actually, not fictitiously or romantically or ideologically, but actually what is it? How do we listen to each other? ML: We listen.

K: Do we? I am taking the other thing. Do we actually listen to each other? Or I listen to you with my opinions about you going on. You follow? ML: But we do explore these things. We explore this thing of listening with or without opinion.
1:08:52 K: We are doing that now. How do you listen to me and how do I listen to you? Do you listen to me at all? Do I listen to you at all? Or I have an opinion about you – which I haven't got – but suppose if I have an opinion about you, what happens? That opinion is always distorting what you are saying. That you are head of the school, by Jove I must be careful. I want my children here therefore I can't offend him. I must play up to him a little bit. You follow? All that is going on, my trickery going on. And I say, 'Yes, I listen to you very well.' ML: So that in many cases is very evident. If I am listening to you, and these are the things going on inside of you, they become apparent in your voice, in your face, in the words you use. And if I am direct with you or honest with you, if we have a relationship, then we can discuss that.
1:10:09 K: That's right. So we say, look my friend, we are both concerned about the school, about the children. Cut out all that rubbish and let's discuss, have a dialogue about it together, a conversation. That conversation demands certain care, certain understanding of words, the actual meaning of words. If I use the word 'love' and you have a different significance and I have a different significance, we are off. So there is not only verbal understanding, clarity of words which we use, and also there must be a certain affection between us, a care, that you mean what you say, that I mean what I say. Out of that there is respect, affection to each other. Will we do all this? No, that is why it becomes so utterly meaningless.
1:11:26 Q: Can I say something? I am just talking from experience: the way I see to get rid of all the rubbish is just through experience. What is happening here is, some of the times I was thinking about things in my own life; it seems that not to have mediocre children you can't be mediocre yourself. And if you really love him that means you don't want him to be mediocre therefore you can't be mediocre yourself. Therefore not to be mediocre yourself you have to see all this stuff. Once you see it, it dissolves. Now, you are here. I have rapport with you and my wife's right here, who I greatly love, and the thing I am working on, on which I just tuned out of this meeting, was money. And so, what came over me was: your children are going to be mediocre if you are mediocre, at least you are going to condition them, so probably they're going to be. So I just went at the money thing. Do I make any sense? Did you understand what I am saying?
1:12:24 K: Not quite.
1:12:27 Q: I got rid of the money thing. You see, I had this thing: you have to have a big house so I could come to Ojai, come to the Krishnamurti school. In America we have to have the big house and the cars and everything.
1:12:38 Q: Well, I just threw it out.

K: All right. Then?
1:12:43 Q: We're not going to have it.

K: No, proceed. Go on with that.
1:12:48 Q: Well, it is simple. We don't need all this money. We need a certain amount of money: you have to have good food and you have to be close to the school but I don't need three cars and a big house with a swimming pool.
1:12:57 K: I understand that. So what is the next step?
1:13:02 Q: You want it that specific? All of this real estate empire. I'll just go out and dismantle it.
1:13:09 K: All right, you have got rid of certain garbage.
1:13:12 Q: Right. That is all I am saying.

K: Then what? What happens then?
1:13:21 Q: What happens is I had a lot of tension from the money and I am not going to have the tension. Like this morning, I get up, the kids are drinking grape juice, I am drinking coffee. They say, Ah, no more grape juice, it is coffee. Why do I drink coffee, caffeine? Why I am I up late at night? Because I am worried about the money. We are going to throw it out. Am I making any sense?
1:13:42 K: Not quite, sir.
1:13:47 Q: Well, maybe I should just make a simple statement. I just wanted the money thing and got rid of it.
1:13:53 Q: That is all I am saying to you.

K: All right. I get rid of money, the desire for the big house. Not money – desire for big house, cars. You see the futility of that kind of action.
1:14:06 Q: Right. And the tension it gives.

K: Yes. But does it awaken in you a resistance, a tension? No.
1:14:16 Q: No, I have been through that, you know, the debate: Oh, you shouldn't have the car. You've got to have the car because you've got to get out of Ojai, and all this stuff. No, that discussion ended.
1:14:27 K: Then what is the issue?
1:14:34 Q: There wasn't any issue. I was just explaining to you the experience. Oh yeah, that you were helpful, my wife was helpful. That is what I am saying.
1:14:45 K: What are you talking about, sir?
1:14:48 Q: No, I am being honest. You are laughing.
1:14:50 Q: I think he is saying he had to an insight into money, the need for money.
1:14:57 K: I understand, madame. From then, what?
1:15:00 K: Proceed from there.

Q: Yes, okay.
1:15:03 Q: Don't stop?
1:15:06 K: Don't stop at coffee, go on.
1:15:11 Q: Get rid of it all.
1:15:12 K: No. Look, we are talking of something, which is: are we prepared as educators, parents, to be aware of the garbage that we have collected, the garbage which has been handed down through parents, education, the past, are we aware of those movements of collection of garbage? Are we aware of them? That is what Mark Lee and we are talking. I am asking of him and he is asking me, as two friends, who are intent on something, on this school. You cannot create a good, first-class, a school that has never been in existence before if you have garbage and I have garbage – right? We both acknowledge that fact. Then the next question is – fact – are you aware of the garbage, the things that you have collected? And am I aware – etc. To what extent? You follow? To what extent are you aware of this collection? Money, superficial things, or aware much more profoundly? How will you find out whether you are aware superficially or profoundly, deeply? Come on, sir, dialogue. This is what I mean, a dialogue between you and the educator. You are the student and I am not your teacher but I happen to be an educator for the time being, and I say let's talk about this, let's expose to each other. Not in the group sense. Let's discuss it. ML: I notice some of my rubbish has certain effects and these effects, my attitudes, my words, my opinions will continually be challenged or be obvious to other people.
1:18:07 K: No, are you aware of the garbage collection, that which you have collected and handed down to you and so on? To what extent are you aware? And to what depth are you aware of this? Because if you are aware superficially, your deeper layers of collection will infect the children. Whether you want it or not, it will, bound to, like a disease. So, is Mark Lee aware superficially or deeply?
1:19:10 Q: So he has to be able to go further in his mind after he realises, when he realises that he has garbage, this realisation takes place by forming a new centre in the mind.
1:19:24 K: Ah. No, I am going to show you. If you want to get rid of one set of garbage and collect another set of garbage, you are not getting rid of any garbage.
1:19:34 Q: Yes, but I think it is essential – at least it takes place in my mind – the realisation that I do form a new centre. For me, going further in the question of collecting garbage is: what does this collection really mean? How does it take place? That is my next question.
1:19:50 K: We'll discuss it. We are doing it now. How does it take place?
1:19:56 Q: At one level it takes place by forming another centre, which now I have to face that also.
1:20:02 K: No, sir. Forget the centre. You, as a human being – how does this collection of garbage come about? Rubbish – how did it come about?
1:20:19 Q: By not disposing of them at the time when there was something to look at. By memorising things which remain as residue in my mind from previous sections.
1:20:31 K: Sir, didn't your parents give you some of that rubbish?
1:20:34 Q: Definitely they have.
1:20:35 K: Didn't society give you some of that rubbish?

Q: Yes.
1:20:40 K: The environment gave you some of that rubbish? And you, yourself, have collected some rubbish. So, who is responsible for this?
1:20:56 Q: To some extent I am, to some extent the parents, not pointing the way...
1:21:04 K: Parents, society, neighbours, so what: who gave it to you?
1:21:12 Q: Who gave it to me?
1:21:15 K: Who gave you this collection?
1:21:23 Q: The environment of which I accept.
1:21:26 K: Which is what? The world around you. Right. Are you different from the world? When you are the result...
1:21:40 Q: No, I am not aware of it. I am not different.
1:21:47 K: So you are not different, you are the result of all this.
1:21:50 Q: Yes.
1:21:52 K: Now, are you aware it is a result?
1:21:58 Q: But you see, all these questions...
1:21:59 K: No, I am using the word carefully. Listen to it, sir. Are you aware that this collection is a result?
1:22:07 Q: Yes.
1:22:10 K: Therefore it must have a cause.
1:22:18 K: Right?

Q: Yes.
1:22:19 K: Are you aware of the cause?
1:22:23 Q: Yes.

K: What is the cause? You say, I am responsible for the collection. My parents, the education that I have had, the college, the university, the society, the neighbour, which is the world around you, the culture, all that is the world around you. That has helped you to collect all this. So you are the result of all this. Right? You are a result. Therefore there is a cause for this result, or causes. What are those causes?
1:23:16 Q: As far you let me, I can say only one thing: myself.
1:23:20 K: No, yourself is the result of all this.
1:23:24 Q: Right. But the causes remain true. Those questions you raised are all included: my parents, my environment and so on.
1:23:32 K: We said that. So you are a result of all this. When there is a result, which is the effect, there must be a cause. What is the cause of human beings which have created this mess around us?
1:23:55 Q: Fear.
1:23:58 K: No, go into it slowly.
1:24:02 Q: The mechanical way the mind works.
1:24:12 K: Sir, what do you want most? No, fundamentally, deeply, what is the cause of all this? Which means what do the human beings deeply want, crave?
1:24:30 Q: Security.
1:24:34 K: Yes. isn't it? They want security, both physiologically, psychologically and if I may use the word, spiritually. Right? So, the moment you want security you must have this garbage. Right? So one has to go into the question of security. One must have security physically: clothes, food, house, money, we must have it otherwise we can't function. But is there any other form of security? No. But yet you want it. The churches have offered it, priests have offered it, the modern gurus are offering it, books are offering it. So psychologically, inwardly, can you be free of all security? Which means dependence on wife, etc. So, you understand how complex the problem is? So, how are we going to help the child?
1:26:29 Q: The same way as you are doing right now, because through your questioning of me I have reached that, inverted quotes, 'conclusion'. And together, we may have done something. For me, I have seen things.
1:26:47 K: That is, a conclusion is a security.
1:26:51 Q: No, I don't say that word.
1:26:56 K: Conclusion is a security, opinion is a security, judgement is a security, imitation is a security, conformity to a pattern is security, inwardly, psychologically. Following authority, a guru, the whole thing is that, demanding security and creating that which gives you security. I create the guru because I want security. I created Jesus, in the Christian world, because I want security from him. I created the priest who says, I will help you. I will be the intermediary between you and God. So can I help my child never to have this burden of the thing called security, which is non-existent? Do you understand, sir? So what shall I do? In a school, what shall we do? You and I understand the depth of this demand for security. Now, the child wants security – right? He must have it. Because if he doesn't find it at home he'll find it in a drug, he'll find it in a guru – you understand, sir? – or in a commune, run away. So how will you, the parent and the educator, convey this to the student, and see that he doesn't have it? Then he is a free man, he is a marvellous man. The people who seek security are the mediocre people. So what shall we do Mark Lee, as a teacher, and here are other teachers, how shall we set about to help the student about this particular issue? I am taking one. Let's stick to that one issue. ML: All of these people have to really understand the detailed subtleties of security first.
1:30:03 K: True, first that means you and I must understand it, live it, go into it. ML: Because in fact there is no approach to the child. That is, there is no way to say this is how we will deal with it.
1:30:16 K: No. So you and I help each other to see the meaning of it, the depth of it and be free of it.
1:30:28 Q: Which doesn't mean that once we've understood we bring it over to the child and try to relate based on what he once came upon, but reiterate once more with the child in his language.
1:30:40 K: Look, suppose ten of us understood this. We create the right environment, don't we, psychologically? I wonder if we see this. When we see that there is no security, deeply, and the child who wants security, must have security, protection, what is your relationship to him then? You understand?
1:31:26 Q: How do I react?
1:31:27 K: Listen carefully. You and a few of us have gone into this question of security. Which is, you are the result of the world – right? The result implies the effect. The cause is – what is the cause? Human beings want psychological security. Right? Psychological security more than physical security. Therefore, when I demand more psychological security then status becomes important, and all the rest of it. So if you and a few of us understand the depth of this thing, how shall we deal with the child, who must have security?
1:32:32 DM: Who must have psychological security.
1:32:34 K: Psychological, physiological, every form of security. How will you deal with that child?
1:32:40 DM: He must have psychological security, which doesn't exist.
1:32:43 K: No, you and I have understand that. Understood it and live it and gone into it. You and I have understood it. And there is the child who says, for God's sake, I must have security. What will you do? What is your relationship with the student, with the child? You understand my question? Mark Lee, you understand my question? So how do you answer this?
1:33:19 Q: Once it is understood – and I've really understood when the child raises the question – you bring it. So a reaction from me toward the child which I didn't know at this time, it would depend on the actual situation how the child raises this question.
1:33:36 Q: Maybe I don't understand.

K: No, you are not answering.
1:33:39 Q: By constantly living now. By exploring together how to deal with the immediate...
1:33:47 K: No, that poor child, you can't discuss with him. Right?
1:33:53 Q: But by our actions together...
1:33:55 K: There is no 'together'. You are missing my point. The child wants security. Right? He must have it. ML: Any more than we must have it?
1:34:10 K: No. Look, you and I have talked about it. You and I have seen the meaning of it, the quality of it. And you and I, psychologically are wiping away this garbage we have collected as security. Priests, drugs – security, wholly dependent on someone, and so on. Now I am asking you, how will you deal with a child who must have security?
1:34:51 Q: If you deal on the same level.

K: No, you are not.
1:34:56 Q: Then he won't see a difference.
1:35:01 Q: Can't you just give him that security? ML: The word that seems to be confusing is the word 'must'. Sir, if a child doesn't have security he goes to pieces. It is one of the causes of neuroticism, one of the causes of running away from home. ML: So you must make him feel secure.
1:35:28 K: How will you do it? You, not being psychologically free of security, how will you help that child to be secure?
1:35:40 DM: Especially if you have adopted that security doesn't exist.
1:35:44 K: For you it doesn't. DM: But it can for him?
1:35:48 K: Poor chap. For God's sake, what is the matter with you?
1:35:52 DM: We are saying there is no psychological security. How can one give that if it doesn't exist?
1:35:57 K: But he wants it. He needs it. Like a baby wants the mother, clings to her skirts – needs. Haven't you got children? Haven't you got children? Don't you know how they depend on you?
1:36:23 Q: Yes. Mary Zimbalist: For a child, it is normal to be... (inaudible) For an adult, it is lack of...
1:36:34 K: It is immaturity. Now, how will you deal with the immature, you being mature? You understand my question, sir?
1:36:49 Q: No.
1:36:55 K: Look, I am psychologically free of security. I know I am, personally. Not dependence, etc. and I have a son, a boy, a student. How shall I help him to feel completely secure with me? You understand – because he needs it.
1:37:28 Q: You are gentle.
1:37:32 K: No, be careful, sir. I want to go into this. Go slowly with me. I see the need... You know, they have found – if you have read that strange book, 'Mind in the Waters' – they have found that the whales, because they are such enormous animals, nothing can – except human beings – nothing can destroy them. You understand? In the deep. Except human beings have destroyed fifty million of them. Appalling. So they have an extraordinary mind – you understand? – because they are secure. And psychologically being free from security there is tremendous security. I wonder if you see this. Do you understand this? I have before found security in the priest, suppose, and I suddenly find how absurd that is. Haven't I? So I am secure.
1:39:18 Q: So are you saying then that the old security is inattention to the real, then?
1:39:26 K: No, when I examine security and see the falseness of it, there is intelligence. That intelligence doesn't demand security, it is secure in itself. Right? So, how shall I convey this to the child, who needs protection, care, security, all the rest of it?
1:40:01 Q: Doing nothing but what you are doing right now, but with the child. And that brings love and passion.
1:40:07 K: Wait, you are too quick. You are adding, you are jumping. What does it mean?
1:40:23 K: Look, the boy, the student wants security – right? He must have it. He climbs a tree and he might fall down and break his leg. Now how will you deal – please listen – how will you deal with that child? You being supremely intelligent, in the sense we are using that word 'intelligence', which in itself is completely secure because intelligence is secure. Not the dependence on something which gives you security. Right? You have understood that? So, how will you deal with that child who climbs a tree or might break his neck, fall down? You want him to be secure. He needs security. You follow? How will you deal with him? Beat him up? Scold him? 'Don't do it'? Get irritated with him? I am asking you. Get irritated with him? Scold him? Say, never go near the tree? What will you do? How will you deal with this? ML: I could do two things: first of all, I would discuss with him the dangers of climbing a tree, then I would teach him how to climb a tree.
1:42:17 K: Wait. All right. Go much deeper than that, old boy. Go on! ML: You could carry this into any situation.
1:42:30 Q: The child is up the tree. He knows how to climb it. We don't have to teach him how to climb it.
1:42:34 K: He might go and play with a rattler. Don't take an incident. How will you deal with a boy or a girl who is mischievous, who is naughty, who plays dangerously? How will you deal with him? What do you do in daily life, sir?
1:43:03 Q: Constantly pointing that out to him.
1:43:07 K: But he goes on doing it.
1:43:10 Q: Maybe. But the only thing I can do is be completely myself in that situation...
1:43:20 K: Not yourself – what do you mean 'yourself'?
1:43:22 Q: See the circumstance in which I find the harmony, part of which he is, while he is doing it.
1:43:29 K: No, you don't go through all this process, do you?
1:43:34 Q: Well, you react there mostly instantly.
1:43:38 K: You are missing my point, sir. Come on, Mark Lee, how do you answer this? You don't spoil him – right? ML: No, but I have a relationship with him.
1:43:53 K: Please, begin with the question: out of the desire for security, you have found what it means, you have an insight into it, that insight is intelligence, and that intelligence says, there is no security, old boy. So that intelligence is itself marvellous. Right? You have understood that? Now, you are to deal with this child who is mischievous, naughty, etc., and needs security. How will you deal with him? That is your problem – you understand? – in your daily life when you have got a school, how are you going to deal with it?
1:44:55 Q: You extend to the child your idea of security in a sense. He is in a situation where his idea of security is really extreme, like he is scared...

K: Yes, poor chap, he needs it.
1:45:06 Q: So he is right at the focal point of what he considers security. You must deal with the situation where you extend to him your idea of security. And you don't panic, and you'll just normally act...
1:45:19 K: I will show it to you in a minute. You are not facing the issue! You have got theories about it. You understand my question? He needs security, he needs your protection, he needs your care, and he may depend on your care, on your protection. Taking all that for granted, how will you help him to see the importance in this? Help him? Are you lost?
1:46:10 Q: No, I am right there.
1:46:13 K: Are you lost? Because you don't know how to deal with this. You have theories how you will deal with it. You are dealing with it according to your old tradition. You are missing my point.
1:46:32 Q: You don't know. It may be that the cases are artificially created here, but I cannot know at this time how I will deal with a child in a situation, because I don't know the circumstances of the situation. By facing myself right with the child at that moment...
1:46:51 K: Sir, you have got a school. You have got sixty children. Fifty or ten or so many students. This is a problem – right? They want to go to Meiners Oaks, they want to do everything that the others are doing, because they find in that security. Right? They don't want to be different. That is how Hitler, all his youth movement, the communist youth movement – you follow? – it is all based on this principle. The Catholic, it is all based on the principle of don't be alone, it is fearful. Be together. So he finds security. He needs it. How will you deal with this? May I go into it a little bit? First of all, what actually takes place when you have inquired very deeply into this question of security? You need physical security, you must have it – right? And security means dependence, etc. If we have wiped away all that garbage, all that collection, what is the state of your mind?
1:48:33 Q: There is a great deal of clarity. If you act from clarity, if you are very clear...
1:48:38 K: No, please – not, 'you will act' – are you doing it? For God's sake!
1:48:45 Q: That is it.

K: No, That is not it. No, because you are still seeking security psychologically, aren't you?
1:48:57 Q: Are you asking me personally?

K: No, I am not.
1:49:01 Q: If you are not, you have the clarity.
1:49:06 K: If you are not you have no clarity. Either clarity is like that clarity of the sun, please, if one has not gone into this question of security and all the infantile, stupid things involved in it, and if you have gone into it there is this extraordinary quality of intelligence – right? It is intelligence that says to you, that is rubbish. Not reason, not argumentation. The very observation of it is intelligence, which says, that is rubbish. So you have that intelligence, which is not book learning, all that. Now what takes place? I meet that child who wants security. He needs it. From what source are you giving him security? You understand my question now? What is the source? From what depth are you giving it to him? ML: From that intelligence.

K: Follow it up. From that intelligence. No, please don't. Unless you do this you will go off on some superficial thing. From that intelligence you will act. What does that mean? What does intelligence mean – it means love, compassion. Right? Doesn't it? Not being compassionate you act on the child, but if you are compassionate that compassion acts, not your judgement, evaluations, etc. Have you go it, sir?
1:51:33 Q: You don't give love, but love gives and love acts.
1:51:37 K: You people. If you haven't come to that fact that there is no psychological security at all, which can only happen when there is intelligence, that says it is stupid to go to a priest, it is stupid to go to a guru, to depend on somebody, because in all those things you are seeking security – drugs, this or that and ten different things. So observation without judgement is intelligence, isn't it? Intelligence is not an intellectual, rationalised collection of ideas. Right? So it is intelligence. Now, you will deal with the child from that, not from your collection. Are we prepared to go so far as that? You understand? As a parent, as a teacher, etc., are we prepared to go to such lengths in our lives? You follow? Most people go a very little way and get frightened and say, Oh, for God's sake, instead of going to that guru I'll go to somebody else. You follow? We are saying the abandonment of all gurus, which means all authority. Because in authority we seek security, and so we create the authority. You understand? When each person in America behaves righteously you don't have to have a government. Because we are not behaving righteously we have a government. it is a fact. Right?
1:54:27 We'd better stop, it is one o'clock. We meet tomorrow, don't we?