Krishnamurti - How will you help a child not to have fear?

Krishnamurti Subtitles

OJ77DT3 - How will you help a child not to have fear?
Ojai, California - 26 March 1977
Discussion with Teachers 3

1:14	Krishnamurti: Shall we go on with what we were talking about yesterday? May we? I am trying to remember what we said yesterday. Oh yes. We were saying yesterday, weren't we, in our dialogue, that most human beings, practically everyone, seeks security, both physiologically as well as psychologically. That was what we were saying yesterday. And in the process of investigation of that question, we asked – there must be physical security, food, clothes and shelter for everyone, and is there psychological security at all? And if we are not clear on that point we will inevitably bring about a neurotic condition, seeking for something which doesn't exist which we discussed a little bit yesterday. And how are we going to help these students, the children to have physical security completely, and avoid the seeking of psychological security? How will we, as an educator and parent, help the children to understand this? And we left it all there, I think, didn't we? We left it there, didn't we, sir? Questioner:Yes.
4:10	K: So how will we, the grown-up people, how will we help them to understand this very complex and very deep problem? Because the students, the children, demand, need, must have security, physically. I think that is obvious. And can we help them to understand the danger and the futility of this search for psychological security in a belief, in a guru, in some authority, in some priest, in a family, in a woman, in a man, you know, the whole question of seeking security, outwardly and inwardly. Outwardly – in a person and so on, inwardly – belief, conclusions, ideals and so on. How can we help them? What would I do if I had children, to get them to understand this question? This is a dialogue, please. So what shall we do? I think this is a basic question which we must discuss and understand in order to bring about a different kind of generation, so that there is no conflict between the outer and the inner. A generation that is not caught up in all kinds of neurotic beliefs and hopes and fears and all the rest of it, but be totally, completely free of all that, and work or live for the physiological necessity for every human being. I don't know if you see the importance of this. The division of the world into India, Europe and America and communist, socialist, the various categories of nationalism, is the search for security in the nation, which is an idea, which is a conclusion, which is flag-waving, which has no meaning at all. And all the various divisions of religions, which is the search for psychological security. So seeing all this, can I, as a parent with children, prevent them or help them not to get involved, caught up in the psychological pain, the suffering and the misery of contradiction and division? You understand my question? What am I to do? What would I do? This is your problem, isn't it, or is it not? Or am I imposing a problem on you? Am I imposing a problem on you? I hope not. What shall I do with my two children, a boy and a girl – I haven't got any, but suppose I had – what shall I do? I hear this and I see the logic of it, the reason of it, I have observed what is going on in the world, the violence, the contradiction, the enormous expenditure on armaments all over the world, the real lack of true education – what shall I do? How would you answer this question? Mark Lee, and you are the teachers, how will you answer this question? What would you do with your child, seeing the truth of this – right? Not merely logically, but the actual fact of it, how will you deal with this problem with regard to the children? Because they are the future generation. We are the passé. How would you deal with this? I know how I would deal with it, but I don't want to tell you – this is a dialogue.
11:25	Q: Sir, as you wean the child from the breast, you would also try to wean the child from dependence and psychological security.
11:36	K: Sir, do you see – the parent and the educator – the truth of this fact, the actuality of this fact, or is it just still a theory? You understand my question? Is it just a conclusion, a clever argumentation, logically worked out, and so you agree intellectually, but are not with it completely, wholly? If you are not with it wholly, completely, see the truth of it, then you have a problem yourself, haven't you, because there is a contradiction between a conclusion and a fact. Right? So, do we as parents, educators, see this fact? Not partially, but wholly, because there is no such thing as partial fact, either it is a fact or not a fact. Not, I understand a fact partially, that has no meaning. How would you deal with it? Mark Lee and company, please, discuss, have a dialogue with me. You too, sir, please. Avanti.
13:23	Q: It is not clear to me that psychological security is an illusion. That is not entirely clear.
13:34	K: It is not entirely clear? Q: No.
13:47	K: Why is there division in the world? Ideological divisions, physiological divisions, psychological divisions, nations, communists, socialists, capitalists, and so on – why is there this division?
14:08	Q: Because each of us seems to have our own continuity to preserve, our own history.
14:17	K: Continuity and identification with a particular group, community, ideals and so on. Q: Yes.
14:24	K: What is the need of identification with a group?
14:27	Q: What is the need of it? K: What is the need of it.
14:32	Q: That seems to be what psychological security consists of.
14:36	K: Therefore, the identification with a group, however large or however small, is the desire to be secure, psychologically, isn't it, inwardly. So there is that division, that is one of the reasons. There is the other division, the communist and the capitalist,
15:04	K: which is ideological difference. Right? Q: Yes.
15:08	K: They worship Lenin, Marx as their new gods, which is the ideal, and there are the others with their ideals: Catholic, protestant, Hindus, Buddhist, so there is this constant division which is psychological division. Because in that, in Lenin, in Marx, they find security. Right? And so on. Religiously, one group follows a guru, a particular guru, and the other group follows another guru. Psychologically they seek, they have found, at least they think they have found security in this bearded gentleman or in that whatever it is, various types of gurus. Sorry, I am not objecting to beards. Various types of gurus. So human beings are trying to find security, psychologically. And we went into this. Is there psychological security at all?
16:26	Q: It seems to me that perpetuation of my own interests consists of psychological security.
16:36	K: I don't quite follow that.
16:39	Q: When I seek security, what I seem to be seeking is the continuity of my own self, psychologically.
16:47	K: Yes, continuity of your own self. That is, continuity of yourself through an idea, through a nation, through a family – right? Through belonging to certain groups, certain gurus, the whole problem. So, is there such security? I may identify myself with my family, with my religion, with my guru, or with certain ideals, but is there security in that? I think there is, I want it to be there, but is there, actually?
17:34	Q: Physiologically? K: Psychologically. I want a continuity through the identification of myself with my wife and children and family. Begin at that level and we will see. Is there security in my wife? I would like to have it, but is there?
18:07	Q: No. K: No.
18:10	K: Are you quite sure? Q: Yes.
18:19	Q: How does one know there is not security in this?
18:22	K: Don't you know, sir? Your wife – not your wife – my wife may turn away from me and I have lost her. I become jealous, anxious, frightened, hatred, all the rest of it follows. And then I leave her and go off to another woman. The same desire, the same anxious search for security is there. So I have moved from one woman or man, hoping to find security somewhere in my relationship. This is what is happening. I divorce this and marry that. Q: OK.
19:11	K: Because in this I have not found security, I hope find it there. Security in the sense, a continuity, a sense of comfort, etc. And will I find it there? I think I'll find it there, but actually any moment she can turn away again. Of course. Q: OK.
19:37	K: So, there is no security in the family. In the family, in the sense of my wife and group, small group.
19:50	Q: OK. Like, she could die. There is no security in the sense that she could leave, she could die.
19:57	K: But it is an obvious fact, sir. Q: That is obvious. Right.
20:00	K: Now, go next step. Is there security in my nation, with which I have identified myself?
20:08	Q: No, that I don't have any trouble with.
20:11	K: Is there security in a small community?
20:17	Q: Like this one. Q: Like us.
20:19	Q: When you go that way with ideas and the nation, – this is just an individual thing – for me that is not a trouble, but when you come down to a family or a small group...
20:30	K: Look at it – from the smallest to the biggest community, from the smallest personal experience as an idea, is there any security at all?
20:45	Q: In a family there seems to be temporary security.
20:49	Q: You don't want the word temporary.
20:50	K: The moment you say temporary...
20:55	Q: Sir, the problem seems to me to be that the self that I am trying to make secure, that it consists of nothing but that desire for security, those attempts to have continuity, and any continuity it has is its security.
21:15	K: Is there continuity in a nation? Q: No.
21:21	K: Is there a continuity in following a guru, in an ideal?
21:25	Q: No. K: You want continuity, we all demand continuity.
21:31	Q: Because that self goes from one nation, to one idea, to one guru...
21:37	K: So one asks: is there security at all? Right? Please answer it, not just say well, leave it at that, and bring up your children in uncertainty, in confusion. That is what takes place.
21:57	Q: You say that in this society the woman or the man might turn away from the individual, in a family, but I come from a different background, where in India usually this does not happen, there is security in the family.
22:12	K: No, but you find security, not in a family because in India it is rather difficult to get a divorce, and traditionally that is not done, and so you put up with the woman or with the man and say, for God's sake, let's forget it.
22:30	Q: I agree with some people it might be like that, but I do still say that there are people who are also happily married.
22:37	K: Oh yes, I don't deny that. I don't deny there are not people who are happy in their marriage.
22:45	Q: It is true that ultimately death does bring this insecurity, there is no consistency in marriage.
22:51	K: I am just pointing out, there is no security at all, even though one may be married happily, etc. I have hardly ever met a family, husband and wife, who are happy. That is a different matter. This company is excluded.
23:20	Q: Isn't that a frightening statement, though? One has to be clear, but there is a lot of fear that comes up when you say there is no security, there may be no security. It is frightening.
23:33	K: No, on the contrary. You are seeking security and hoping to find it, and therefore when you don't find it you are frightened. But if there is no security at all, you have different feeling about it.
23:56	Q: Also, isn't a factor of happiness in relationship in a way in ratio to the lack of dependency?
24:05	K: Of course, but I don't want to go into all the details of it, I want to stick to one thing, if we may for the time being, which is: if you find the fact, the truth of this, that there is no psychological security, not because someone says so, but it is a fact. My wife might die tomorrow. I hope not. My children may be butchered. Anything might happen – right? And the nation, the group, the gurus. So there is no fundamental security psychologically, full stop. That is what I am pointing out. Discuss it with me, have a dialogue about it. Please don't accept it.
24:58	Q: Sir, there is something I don't understand about it. If you say that such security as there is in the family is not security because it is temporary at best, are we to understand that physical security, once it is obtained, is not temporary but lasts forever?
25:13	K: No, I don't say physical security lasts for ever. But the physical security for all human beings is being denied because human beings are seeking security psychologically, which doesn't exist. Therefore, all human beings are not having physical security.
25:42	Q: It is the kind of thing that needs maintaining, the physical security. It needs to be maintained.
25:49	K: Of course. Q: Right.
25:54	K: I don't know if we understand this clearly. Q.: Are you saying that if we realised that there is no psychological security, there will be universal physical security?
26:07	K: Bound to be. Look, all right, India for example has got 650 million people. Every year about 15 million people added to the circus. And that country cannot feed itself – impossible. And they cling to it because they say we are a nation, we are an independent republic, blah, blah, blah, and so there refuse to acknowledge that they cannot feed themselves. And each country divides – division, division. So if there was no nationality, which is the search for psychological security in a group, in a nation, then naturally we would all work for physical security. It is seems so logical, this, and so true. No? You don't believe it? It is not a question of belief – face the fact, sir. Facts.
27:27	Q: There does at least seem to be a form of temporary security. At least the mind persuades itself that there is...
27:35	K: Temporary security, all right. Are you satisfied with temporary security?
27:41	Q: No, one is always trying to be sure about it.
27:43	K: Yes. Why not face the fact, even though you may have temporary security, unconsciously you are aware of it, there is fear. The insecurity.
27:55	Q: Yes, quite right. But this leads to another question, which is: if there is only temporary psychological security, which is not security at all, what kind of security is it then that we can offer to the child?
28:08	K: That is what I want, to come to the point. You are refusing to meet that point.
28:12	Q: Well, what can be the nature of that security?
28:17	K: You are not meeting my point, sir. Do you as a parent, as an educator, help the student to understand that the temporary security is the most dangerous security? Because that breeds fear. Stick to one thing. How will you help that student not to have that fear? If you are convinced, if you know for yourself the fact that temporary security breeds fear, and you don't want that child to have fear of that kind – we won't go into the whole problem of fear – of that kind, how will you help him? That he must never seek temporary security, because that breeds fear – right? How will you help him? Go on, sir.
29:36	Q: So I must ask, if I see the truth and the fact that temporary security in nations, in groups, in other people, I see that fact as being temporary, but I must ask if there is a differentiation there between – and I don't know if it is security or what – but between the feeling that one gets from just acting acting in his daily life and doing his daily chores with a certain amount of feeling of love, and a certain amount of feeling of sharing there, inside himself, in other words, whether it is his job to do this or not, if he sees that something must be done, he goes around and he does it, he puts his time in and he does it, just because he sees that that should be done, because there is no motive involved to doing that at all, and maybe another day he may see something else that has to be done and he goes and does that. Is that security? Can there be security from that?
30:37	K: Sir, please, forgive me for bringing it back – which is: as an educator, you have children to deal with. How are you going to prevent the fundamental fear in the children, which one of the causes is the search for temporary security, and knowing that it is going to cause fear, how are you going to prevent the children having that fear? You have understood my question?
31:19	Q: The first thing that one wants to do...
31:22	K: No, not wants to do, what will you do? They are two different facts.
31:28	Q: All right. First, to create an atmosphere, an environment in which the child is secure.
31:36	K: Go slowly, step by step. You are saying, because you understand the nature of temporary security with its fear, because you understand it, you see the fact of it, and the other teachers also see the fact of it, you naturally create an atmosphere, of what? Go slow. You can create an ugly atmosphere, you can create a holy atmosphere, a sense of awe, very easy, to create those things. But how will you create the atmosphere of no psychological fear?
32:31	Q: I think it involves an atmosphere of order.
32:34	K: No, wait, we will go slowly. Slowly, slowly.
32:38	Q: Well, if it is chaos involved in the atmosphere...
32:42	K: Of course, so you are saying there must be order.
32:47	Q: Yes, there must be.
32:50	K: What do you mean by order?
32:52	Q: Well, I think the violence in their actions, they must realise what they are doing in their actions. They must realise not so much why they are doing that, but what they are doing, while they are doing it.
33:09	K: What do you mean by order? You haven't explained to me.
33:13	Q: Well, their desks shouldn't be cluttered, their rooms shouldn't be cluttered.
33:18	K: Wait. By telling them the room mustn't be cluttered, there must be order, you are creating a certain fear in them.
33:29	Q: But if you make them see that... K: Wait, go slowly.
33:35	K: How will you do this? You say you must have order. Children are disorderly – toys, this, that and the other, leave their under things here – you know, children. How will you bring about order without compulsion, because that means fear. Without example, – that means fear. Right? Without telling them, you are in disorder, because they'll shrink away from you the moment you criticize them. So how will you deal with this fact? You are a father, sir.
34:28	Q: Well, my thing is, I don't know how to deal with the children until I solve these problems myself.
34:33	K: Wait. Haven't you solved it by now? Q: No.
34:36	K: What do you mean, no?
34:43	Q: My feeling is once I understand myself then the way I deal with the children will be natural and good.
34:51	K: Yourself is a very complex problem. For the time being, we are not dealing with the total of yourself, we are dealing with one particular aspect of yourself, which is the search for temporary security. And do you see that temporary security breeds fear?
35:14	Q: Yes. K: Now, you see it.
35:17	K: It is an actual fact, not a conclusion. It is so.
35:24	Q: Yes.
35:25	K: There is snow on Topa Topa. It is so. The sky is blue.
35:32	Q: I understand what you are saying.
35:34	K: Right? So it is a fact. Now, that gentleman over there says there must be order – we won't go into the atmosphere for the moment – there must be order. How will you help the child to have order without compulsion – that means fear. Without telling them it is wrong – that is fear. Without forcing them. So how will you deal with this fact? You are a parent, you are an educator, this is your problem. Or do you give it up?
36:25	Q: No – with the experience, like yesterday at supper our child, Rene, was talking about his poop was going to be red if he ate beets. And immediately I got annoyed at that, 'Don't say those words,' because it was making me sort of ill while eating. But I saw that and somehow I dissolved that, and I didn't go with it, I didn't go with my anger or anything, and it went on OK. And then we got talking about, because that is what he wanted to talk about, why do the beets make my poop red, so he wanted to know about blood and digestion, and we got into that, and we both ate our meal, and it went very good. So what happened? I don't know what happened, I just know that was what you are talking about. But I don't know how to explain it.
37:20	K: Sir, who is most important in life?
37:27	Q: Who is most important? K: In your life. Q: Me.
37:31	K: Which is what? You are not concerned with your children?
37:35	Q: Yes, I am concerned.
37:37	K: But are they the most important thing in your life?
37:40	Q: You are really asking hard stuff.
37:44	K: You are playing with things, sir. The school is concerned with the children only.
37:57	K: Right? Q: Right.
38:00	K: And so the school is concerned not to create fear in them.
38:05	Q: OK. Right.
38:08	K: Fear will exist, the educator sees various types of fears exist, when there is the search for temporary security, which you pointed out, which you have agreed, which you've seen. Now, how will you prevent them having that fear?
38:28	Q: I don't know. K: You don't know.
38:33	K: Right? Q: Right.
38:36	K: Now, what will you say? Other teachers, other parents. One parent says, I really have not thought about this, I haven't gone into it, I haven't had time, I haven't had the necessity, I haven't had the compulsion, because children to me are not so important. I am more important than my child. Forgive me, not you. Except the present company, always. So, if the school is concerned with the children, which is their job, their function, how will you prevent this kind of fear? You say, I don't know. Right. And what will you do, Mark Lee, and you, you are the teachers, how will you deal with this problem?
39:35	Q: Wouldn't one only enquire into this question when the student would actually ask about this kind of thing?
39:44	K: No, I am asking you, not children asking, because the poor children don't know, they are frightened, they are conditioned to fear already, in their home, with their friends. Please, Michael, just listen to it. How will you, as a teacher who is concerned with the student, not with your glory, with your etc., what will you do to prevent this fear? You all say you don't know? Mary Zimbalist: Isn't the first thing that has to be done, whether by a parent or the teacher, is that there is a relationship of trust and of security that the child has, so that when you have to explain something or tell him something or ask something of him, that it isn't a matter of evoking fear.
40:49	K: Look, you establish a relationship with the student, when the student is the only important thing in a school. You have established it. No? Ipso facto. If the child is important, you are concerned so profoundly with him, not with your idiosyncrasies, your beliefs, and why they mustn't do this, – you are concerned with him, because he is the future generation, you want him to be totally different from this monstrous humanity. So how will you deal with this. If you all say, I really don't know, then we can proceed. Right? If you actually say, I really don't know. This is a tremendous problem, I don't know, then we can go into it. But if you say, yes, I have an idea, I think we can do this, there must be order...
42:08	Q: I get it. K: Right?
42:11	K: Like a scientist who says, I don't know, and examines.
42:15	Q: OK.
42:19	K: Are you prepared for this? Actually say, I am greatly bewildered, I am really puzzled, I really don't know. Or you have ideas that you do know, that this should be, this should not be, then you and I have no communication, we can't discuss. I don't know, but I am going to find out. You understand? Because I am concerned. My passion, my interest, my energy goes to find this out, how to deal with this fact. Right? Are you prepared for this? That means, we start not knowing. Right? We start, because you don't know, you are free to investigate. Right? You are free to investigate. If you say, 'I don't know,' I can proceed, I'll ask, I enquire, I'll search – you follow?
43:42	Q: I already said I didn't know. The thing is, the child and me – you asked me which was more important. I don't see how I can help the child. The only thought I had when I say I don't know, I don't know how I am going to help my children or anyone unless I understand myself.
44:03	K: I have said yes, that is important.
44:05	Q: So whether I am helping my child or any child or myself, it is all the same. Once I understand then I can help but if I don't understand...
44:13	K: Wait a minute. Do you understand the danger and the implications of temporary security? You said yes. That breeds fear. You have understood one fact.
44:28	Q: OK.
44:30	K: Which is, any form of temporary security breeds fear, in you and in the child. And the world is temporary fear, temporary security. In the world everything is temporary security. American economy may collapse and all your money goes up in smoke. There may be an extraordinary war. Am I fighting something very simple? Now, how will you help that child not to have fear? Because it destroys the child to have fear. If you say I really don't know, and I don't know, we can both of us then together investigate. But if you say, yes, this should happen, that should happen... then you and I can't communicate, Because I don't know. But I am going to find out, I am not going to let it alone. Right?
45:55	K: What's the difficulty? Q: Do you really not know?
46:01	K: When I say I don't know, I mean I don't know how to deal with this problem, with the child, but I am going to find out.
46:12	Q: It is not just a state of mind that one puts oneself into for the sake of the child.
46:17	K: No. I don't know, because I never met a group of children, and how to deal with them. I know how to deal with grown-up people – with a child I don't know. Right? Do you know?
46:35	Q: I am afraid I confess I have ideas.
46:37	K: That's just it – then we are lost. You discuss ideas then. He says, 'I don't know,' so I can discuss with him, because I really don't know – and I mean I don't know. You think I know, but I am trying to cover that up to convince you of something. I really don't know. You have to accept my honesty. When I say I don't know, I mean I don't know. Right? Q: Yes.
47:06	K: Are you in that position? Q: No.
47:08	K: So, why not? Because you have ideas, conclusions, how to deal with this.
47:18	Q: Yes, and it is not clear to me. I would be tempted almost to say that they are not ideas, there are facts. K: What are the facts?
47:30	Q: First of all, as Mrs Zimbalist said, one begins with relationship of trust, openness.
47:38	K: Wait, sir. Relationship of trust. Does a child trust you?
47:44	Q: Yes, I think so. K: You think. Is it a fact? Trust – you know what it means? That you will protect him, that you look after him, that you will see that he has proper food, proper care, proper clothes – trust, confidence, in you.
48:08	Q: Yes.
48:11	K: That you are concerned about him profoundly, that you are not worried about your own problems, that you leave all that outside and come here profoundly concerned with him. So you have confidence, he has confidence in you then. But if you say, you must do this, you must not do that – this, that and the other thing, he says, where is your confidence? You are dictating to me.
48:39	Q: Yes, I understand that.
48:41	K: No – but facts. So, to have a relationship with the student there must be respect. Respect comes out of confidence. Right? Of course. If I have confidence in you, I respect you, I love you. Is this all new?
49:15	Q: The students that I work with respect and have confidence in me and yet at times I have to tell them things.
49:21	K: No, I don't want to tell him anything. The moment I tell him, you must trust me, he says, why should I?
49:29	Q: I don't tell him to trust me, but I do tell him to put on his shoes.
49:34	K: I am not asking, put on your shoes. Please, leave out the details for the moment. We'll come to those. But we are discussing the most fundamental things. If we don't understand the fundamental things, by telling him, take off your shoes, he begins to lose confidence in you. This is an obvious fact.
50:01	Q: A fundamental question, I see then, is how do you demonstrate to a child what he must do?
50:07	K: I am not concerned what he should do. I am concerned to prevent this fear.
50:14	Q: That is what I am saying. How do you demonstrate to a child...
50:16	K: I am going to show it. We are going to discuss it, sir. You cannot discuss a thing. If both of us say, I don't know, let's come to it afresh, let's look at it afresh. Right, sir? Q: Yes.
50:33	K: Let's look at it afresh. That is, first do I understand the logic, the sanity of the statement that any form of temporary security inevitably breeds fear? Right? And I see the world around me is temporary. Right? So there is no security, I understand that. Temporary security is no security, and that breeds fear. So how am I going to convey this to that chap who is already frightened in the family, the students, the world, the newspapers, television, everything cultivates this fear. How am I going to help him? That is the only problem for the time being. Mrs Zimbalist says: what is your relationship to the student, first. You want the student not to have fear – that is understood. What then is your relationship with the student? What is your relationship, the actual? Have you any relationship with the student, with your son, with your daughter, as a parent or as an educator, have any actual – the fact of relationship?
52:15	Q: Human being to human being.
52:19	K: No, what is the relation? Please, what is the relationship of the parent to the child, the educator to the student – what is the actual relationship? Does the parent sit on a platform and tell him, or does the parent, because of his relationship which is affection, respect, confidence, love, care, if that exists, there is natural respect – right? What is the difficulty, sir?
53:09	Q: But that can only exist when there is no fear.
53:14	K: Please, Fritz, just listen. I haven't investigated the whole problem of fear, it is an enormous problem. I am taking one aspect of it, which is the temporary search for security and therefore it breeds fear. Understood. Then I am really concerned about the child, my student. And I say, what is my relationship to him?
53:42	Q: And at that time, the only thing I can say what is factual, that is, I have ideas about the child, I want to change him, I do want to send him to school all these are becoming factual, and many more...
54:00	K: Yes, but I am going a little deeper than that. I am asking you what is the actual relationship?
54:09	Q: If I see all this, I have to say none.
54:13	K: You have none – that is all. Let's face the fact first. Wait, we will come to the next question. The parent, the father, the mother are occupied with their own problems, go off to earn their own money, meet in the evening, tired, etc., and child is put to bed quickly, wash your hands, or sent to the school. So you have no relationship. Right? First recognise the fact. We think we have, we love our children, but the actual fact is – well, you know it. Do you think if you loved your children the world would be like this? So I recognise I have no relationship with my children. Which is a terrible fact – you understand? When I realise I have got two children with whom I have no relationship. It is a great shock to me. So I say, I'll have to establish a relationship. I must, if I am concerned with the child. How am I going to do it? Q: It is what I said before. First we must realise that this child as a human being is as important as we are.
56:05	K: He is my child. I don't have to realise he is a human being.
56:10	Q: The person who goes out to make his money and not worry about his child because he figures he is five years old and he is not important.
56:17	K: I have realised he is my child, he is my responsibility. He is mine. I have produced him – etc. What am I to do? No, sir, I am asking: what is my relationship with him? And I see actually none at all. Then the fact comes, realising that, how am I, not having any relationship with him, going to establish this relationship? That is my concern. How am I going to establish my relationship with my son, whom I see for five minutes a day. You understand, sir? What shall I do, how shall I establish this thing? As you are educators, how do you establish that relationship?
57:23	Q: That is the point, I feel. We have to come down on our knees and say that we really do not know, and seeing I do not know. By seeing I do not know, we suddenly see, we really know.
57:35	K: Sir, to establish a good relationship with anybody you must understand what it means to love somebody.
57:43	Q: Yes. K: Right, sir? Do you? What it means to love somebody. Not memory... I won't go into all that, the horror of all that.
58:00	Q: I think it means you must love everybody.
58:03	K: Please, that is still more. Let me begin with a little thing, which is my child, my son, my daughter. Not with: I'll find out what it means to love everybody, but I must begin there. What is nearest to me is my child and my wife. If I understand that, then everything is in it. So I ask myself: have I no relationship? I haven't any. Which means I really don't know what it means to love. I really don't know. My God, do you realise what it means to say, I don't know what love means? I am married, I have loved that wife, I have slept with her, I have done everything, I say, I love you darling, but I don't know – you follow? It is a tremendous shock to human beings. Let's go – I don't love. So I have to find out what it means to love somebody. Not theories, not garlands, not communes, I love, love is beautiful, etc. I don't know what it means to love. So what is love? Come on, it is your problem. It isn't my problem, it is your problem.
1:00:14	Q: Now, why don't you start with the fact of seeing what it is not? Like, it is not to manipulate children, it is not my intention of trying to educate my child...
1:00:26	K: I said, I must establish a good relationship with my son, with my daughter. The educator must establish that. Otherwise, whatever you say has no meaning to him. He will either revolt against you or he is disrespectful, indifferent. That is what is going on in this world. So, I must find out for myself what it means to love somebody with your heart, not with your blasted brain. I am sorry, I am a bit passionate about all this. Forgive me. So I say to myself: what does love mean? That may prevent fear in that child, if I know how to love that child, fear may be prevented. When I tell him something, out of that love he will listen to me. You understand?
1:01:48	Q: The verb, to know... K: No, forget the word know. All right. When there is love, he will know that he can trust me, he will know he has confidence in me. Why do you all listen to me?
1:02:18	Q: If that is what love is, and I find it hard to make a conclusive...
1:02:22	K: No, please, this is such a delicate thing. It is like the scent of a flower, you can't just say, well, let me smell it.
1:02:36	Q: That is what I said. I can't find a definition for it. I can't find words to describe it.
1:02:48	K: I love. I don't know what love is, but I have got two children. Just think, think of a parent saying, I don't know what love is, but I have got two children. You understand what it means, what an acknowledgement it is?
1:03:12	Q: Is there any relationship or similarity between love and affection?
1:03:16	K: Don't split words for the moment, just take it. Do you realise what an appalling realisation, that when a parent says, I don't know what love is, but I have got two children and a wife. You understand what it means? Q: Yes.
1:03:44	K: So what is love? And if I don't have that, whatever I say he will revolt. Or he will accept it, but spit on you behind you. Right? So what shall I do? I must find out what it means. Do I love my wife? I have call her darling, I have slept with her, all that. Do I love my wife? I know jolly well I don't. Right? Present company excepted.
1:04:46	Q: There is affection.
1:04:49	K: Affection. What do you mean by affection? Affection means that person is more important than you. The child is far more important than you. Therefore you can't spoil him, you can't say, do this, don't do that, this must be done, and get up – you follow? So, as that strange thing in our life doesn't exist, and because it doesn't exist, everything has become a confusion. Right? Everything. Everything that we touch has become a confusion, brings about confusion. I am going to find out what it means. I must do it instantly, because I have got the responsibility of those children. I can't say, well, I'll think over this, I'll meditate about it for the rest of my life. I haven't time. You understand? Because they are there. I meet them every morning, eat with them, tell them. So I have got to solve it immediately. Please see the logic of it, even. Right? I have got two children and I realise I don't love them. I am talking love in the correct sense of that word. And if I allow a single day to pass, it becomes more and more difficult. So I have got to have this immediately. I have got to find out. Like, I have got cancer, I must go to the doctor and operate – he can't postpone. If you feel that way – you understand? – then things happen. But if you say, well, I am sorry, I'll take a little time, I don't quite understand, I have got to go to the office, I have got to earn money, I have got my sex, I have got my ideals – you follow? The child is there, so there is no time. You understand what I am saying? If there is no time, there is no thought. Thought is time, therefore you have the other thing. You understand? No? It is thought that is destroying love. So if you are all interested in a new generation, in a new world, in a new society, and you've got these children, and they are the future, you have to put everything you have, your money, everything into that. For God's sake, come on, sirs. Right, sir?
1:09:12	Q: The question is: will you put your thoughts there, where you put everything? K: No. You haven't listened. If the child is the most important thing, education – you understand, not only the little sense of little children, but education of the grown-ups and the whole thing, then you'll put your money, your guts, your passion, everything into it. But we are saying: I realise with a tremendous shock that I don't love my children. I realise with a tremendous shock, though I have slept with my wife and all the rest of the business, it is just me first and everything else second. So that is a blow to me, psychologically. I don't react to that blow because I see the truth of it. When you see the truth of it there is no reaction. You understand? And I have got those children, I can't allow a day to pass without this flame, without this love. I can't let a day pass, because if I allow a day to pass, the division grows bigger and bigger and bigger. You understand? If I don't love my wife and sleep with her, I end up in a divorce. So, I have to have that extraordinary thing now, not tomorrow. Right, sir? See your own logic of it, then you'll accept it, because you want everything cut and clear. Black and white. But isn't black and white, everything. So, I must have it today, now. What is preventing it? Thought. Right? No? Because to us, thinking has become tremendously important. I think I love my wife. I think the children should be this way. All the rest of it. I haven't time to go into all that – we can, I will discuss it another time – which is: thought is time. And love has no time. So if I see the truth of that, I have the other thing, instantly. Right? So, I have got this problem. I see the truth that security, temporary security, breeds fear, and I have got the responsibility of showing or helping my children not to seek temporary security, which breeds fear. So they will ask me, because I want them to be intelligent, to question, so they'll ask me, 'Is there permanent security?' You understand my question? If temporary security breeds fear, then is there a security which has no fear at all? You understand my question? I say yes, there is. Which is, I see that temporary security breeds fear. When you say, 'I see,' do you see it through logic, words, reason, or do you have an insight into it? Which is it? Q: It is an insight.
1:14:30	K: Which means what? Q: It is total.
1:14:33	K: Don't explain it yet, look at it carefully. Which means what? When you have an insight into something there is no time, there is no thought, it isn't a conclusion, it isn't a reason, it isn't something put together. You have an insight. And that insight is supreme intelligence. Therefore in that intelligence, there is security. That intelligence is in itself without fear, and therefore it doesn't seek security. So I will tell him, if I was a teacher, or for my children, I say, look at the world, what is happening. I will go into it historically, how the world is divided, nationalities, ideals, ideological statements, the communists, Catholics, the protestants, and nationalities, I would show him that every human being is seeking temporary security, not knowing that it will breed fear. They don't know it, but they say, this is enough for today. We are not concerned with tomorrow. Please give me temporary security, that is enough. The world is asking this. Right? But they are not aware that it breeds intense fear. So I would talk to the child, ten different ways. I would point it out to him, the family, the father, the mother – you follow? I would go step by step into it. He would understand me, because I want him to understand it, because I feel fear is the most dreadful thing in a child, or in a human being. You understand? So I would spend the first month, or whatever it is, I say, understand this. Forget your lessons. We'll come back to it, because then your mind will be so clear, his mind. So I would talk about that until he sees very clearly for himself. Because I love my child now. He has confidence in me because I love him. So, School comes from the word leisure. You understand? Leisure. To have leisure means leisure to learn. Right? So I say, 'Have leisure,' to my children. I would explain what leisure means, not just going off, climbing a tree. To have leisure – you follow? To learn. So the first thing, I would talk about leisure, how important to have leisure to look at the mountains, not just pass it by. Just to look at the mountains, their snow, the beauty, the depth of the shadow and the line of the – talk to him about leisure. Because he is going to learn only through leisure, not through compulsion. And I would talk to him about fear, not having fear. 'That doesn't mean to do what you want to, old boy, but let's talk about fear.' Not, 'If I have no fears, I won't attend the class.' I say, 'We are not talking of what you will do when you have no fear, but let's talk about it.' You follow? Because he wants to be free of fear, which means doing exactly what he wants, which is disorder – he is used to disorder. So I talk to him. Because I talk to him, he knows I am talking to him out of affection, care, love. So he will listen to me. And while he is listening to me, he will look out of the window. Right? I say, right, look out of the window but look at everything you see, clearly – you follow? Don't be afraid that I am going to scold you, that you are not paying attention to what I am saying. You understand? So I say to him, Look out of the window. That is what you want, that you want to see, so look. Look at the beauty of the tree, the shadows – so that he learns by looking. By not resisting me, but I am helping him to look. So he learns what attention is, in which there is no compulsion. I won't go into all this. Right, sir? Is it all becoming rather too tiresome?
1:21:05	Q: May I ask a question? K: Yes, surely, sir.
1:21:09	Q: During this past year in my own life, I have had an extraordinary amount of time to be able to see what it is you are talking about today – an extraordinary amount of time, an extraordinary amount of energy. And I think that that is not something that most people have, that leisure to be able to do that. And as you talk about this with the children, I am thinking of the teacher I talked to yesterday, who met five days in the afternoon last week, and then responded to those children the other six hours of the day, then responded to his tiredness, another hour or two and to his homework and to the rest of us. And I feel so frustrated inside because I don't know any way that they can have the leisure that I have been able to I have.
1:22:08	K: Sir, after all, in a school the teacher must have leisure and the child must have leisure – not just children have leisure. I must have leisure. I must go out for a walk, look at things. Leisure means not be occupied all the time. Occupied with my problems, with my jealousies, or with the occupation of my children. I must have leisure to look. So I must create in a school this quality of leisure.
1:22:48	Q: Yes.
1:22:49	K: I must, because the child is important.
1:22:53	Q: But surely leisure is more than just having time set aside, it is also a distinct attitude, it is a distinct state of being...
1:23:06	K: No. What does leisure mean, to have leisure? I haven't looked at the word. Perhaps Dr Bohm will tell us the meaning of that word. I haven't looked it up: to have leisure. What is it in French, Italian? Avoir. In Italiano, signora? Il tempo? What is it in French? Loisir. That is leisure. I'll look it up, the root of it. I'll get at it. I have forgotten it. I looked it up some time ago, I have forgotten it.
1:24:00	DB: Same with he English word 'empty' – it means leisure.
1:24:03	K: Yes, that is right. Empty. So, leisure means not being occupied.
1:24:14	Q: To be without pressure.
1:24:17	K: No, not to be occupied. Much more important than to have no pressure. Not to be occupied: with the cooking, with the dishes, with books, with nothing, not to be occupied.
1:24:31	Q: Which implies order. K: No. Not to be occupied. It is only then I learn. By watching. It is only when the mind is empty that I learn, that I have an insight. So, come back to the school. I am the teacher there, so I'll talk to him about leisure. You follow? It is a very difficult job because they are trained to be occupied, to do something all the time, rush about, cycles, because that is their escape. Right? So I have to begin patiently. Say, look, sit quietly. In India it is very easy because they have seen their fathers, their mothers, generation upon generation, what they call meditation, which is sitting quietly. So, when you say in the school, I go to two or three schools in India, Foundation Schools, – I say, let's sit down quietly, immediately, I am not joking, immediately they are quiet. They don't fidget – you know. That is the tradition operating. So I would talk to them about leisure – which means if you have two minutes, don't get up on the cycle and rush off. Right? I would go into it, because I am interested in it, because I want them to have leisure, I want them to learn. Not from me, from books and all that – learn, by observing people. So I would talk to them about that. Then I would say, let's talk about love, security, I would go into it with my heart because I want them to be different. Not a pattern which I have invented. I want them to grow up without fear. Do you know what that means? That would change the world, wouldn't it? So can we, in this school here at Ojai, here, create this thing? Right, sir? If you can't create it, it is not worth having. But if you say, this is my only thing in life. Right? The only thing, it is my God-given responsibility, God-given in quotes. If all of us feel the same, we will create it tomorrow. You understand, sir? Money, we would go and beg, borrow – anything to create such a school. Which means, not only the school, with the little children, but also with the older generation, to discuss all these things with them, together. You understand? The older people and the younger people, we've got enough space here. There will be a centre where there'll be grown-up people discussing these things, for three weeks at a time, regularly – give one's life to all this. Then the children meeting the older people, you know, it creates an extraordinary feeling.
1:29:13	I have talked enough this morning haven't I? None of you talk – what am I to do? I think we had better stop, don't you? Enough said for this morning? Right, sir?